S02.E08: Legends Of Today

[BkWurm1]

Another moment I liked: Felicity being all "You can't play with the toys!" to Cisco. 'Cause sometimes Cisco is ridiculously territorial, and it was funny to see him on the receiving end of that.

I also enjoyed how they worked again to differentiate between Cisco and Felicity's strengths.  Cisco is first and foremost about the engineering. Sure, her sat connection crashes every once and awhile but she can work around it.  But if only she'd read the specs and used the copper wire, she wouldn't be having that problem. 

 

I thought the episode was solid and a lot of fun despite a few disappointments over the road not taken (aka not having Cisco perv - er um - crush on Kendra - seriously I like Cisco  but toooooo young.  He and Thea would be cute though)  I think we are seeing remnants of Barry's crisis of confidence since his run in with Zoom and hence his gut instinct to go get some help. 

 

Loved protective Oliver showing up there for a little bit.  He's been pretty even tempered this season so seeing his bark coming out because of legitimate concerns was enjoyable but equally enjoyable was the tempering role that Felicity played in taking the tension down a notch.  I'm really enjoying how well they balance each other out. 

 

Oh and some pointed out that Diggle kind of vanished for a while.  If I recall, David Ramsey was experiencing a back problems around this time still. 

 

I loved the vibe at the loft with all everyone gathered and chilling with some jazzy music playing in the background.  I bet Oliver had something scrumptious cooking up in the oven too. 

 

Oh and all that freaking out over the contents of Felicity's glass seems really overwrought.  Not saying they won't still go there but I seriously don't think there was any intent to send a hint out in that scene.  Everyone was drinking different stuff.  Kind of funny that despite his seeming cool, Oliver was feeling stressed enough to drink. 

 

I was happy that Vandal Savage did not break in to the new Lair.  Malcolm is one thing, he always shows up, but lets keep the location of the Arrow Cave quiet from the big bads for at least a season.  The penthouse has already been broken into a couple times (Thea kind of bled out on the floor - it's ok, they got a rug)  and the window repair man has to get work from somewhere. 

 

What I found very interesting about that scene was the part where when everyone peeked over the balcony, there was nothing but a ten floor drop.  Made me laugh since last year Thea peaced out but jumping off the balcony.  At the time I assumed there was another one beneath her but nope!  So maybe Thea is also secretly a Hawk girl with insta wings?  Hilarious.

 

Could the team please stop letting people who are being target by either kidnappers or killers just wander off outside to "get some air" or space or whatever.  Of COURSE that's when someone shows up and grabs them. 

 

Felicity was right.  The word "lovers" never doesn't sound creepy. 

 

Again, I like CIsco but I'm not even feeling bad for him re Kendra because did anyone really think he had a shot?  I know, I know, he's not really nine.  Maybe if he did cut his hair.  (and his conditioner was not that much on point) 

 

Going back to the opening fight scene in Star City, Damian Dahrk  was hilarious as always.  It's always great to see a man enjoying his work.  Nit pick.  When DD tried to drain Oliver's life force, I'm pretty sure that it's Barry's fault that Oliver almost died since if Barry hadn't whisked away his back up, DD wouldn't have had so much time to try and kill him ( I was especially expecting Thea to save him)  Also, how about grabbing the chemical weapon too while you're at it Barry? 

 

I loved the music that Vandal Savage got when he took out everyone at the docks.  Good scene too.  Tad impractical to waste time killing everyone but he seemed intent on brushing up on his skills after three weeks just sitting on his arse. 

 

Jumping to Central City.  I like Jay in the beginning and I still think he has potential but I don't know what they are doing with him right now.  Obviously we are not getting the whole story but not having those details are really messing with his characterization.  I am SOO sick of him being called a coward.  But also sick of him just waling away without explanation. 

 

I LOVED when Patty followed Wells back to Star Labs and cheered when she shot him only for everyone to react like she was a puppy that peed on the floor.  Sigh.  Really hoping she's not going to let this one go.  TELL HER!!!  At least about the mutli verse thing. 

 

Speaking of the multi verse stuff, nice moment watching everyone's heads explode when they find out about parallel worlds was fun.  Watching Barry struggle with all the change coming at him was a nice awww moment.  Funny how the scientist is struggling to adapt more than the laymen.  Oliver not needing much convincing about the truth of past lives and flying former Egyptian priestesses was  wonderful. Dude has seen stuff. 

 

That last scene in the bright sunny JItters was jarring, not for the kid reveal but just the part that they were there for coffee reminding each other that they still have to deal with VS.  Yes, I know that.  You two dawdlers don't really seem to know it though, killing time getting java.  My fan wank was they were stopping to stock up with welcome to CC coffee for when they met the private jet. 

 

So yeah, part one of the cross over went really well.  SO many great character moments.  Looking forward to tomorrow night. 

[GreatAtBoats]

I can only remember her saying anything mean in S3 onward - not S1-2 as I mentioned in my post. My point was that she was allowed to be "sweetness and light" for two full seasons so that if she finally said something harsh later (you'd have to remind me that she said something harsh in S3 because I don't remember) it wouldn't register much on people's "hate" scale.

During S1 and especially in S2, she said plenty of things that I would consider to be harsh or insensitive and the kind of crap only a complete jackass would say. It's just that the show framed it as her being either lol-so-quirky! or as if she had a valid point and therefore completely excused of her behavior even if she was being unnecessarily hurtful in making that point.

[phoenics]

Agreed. Okay, I wasn't giving the show my full attention. Didn't they have pictures of Savage in previous decades?Where were those from? Couldn't Iris have provided those by pulling up articles from the paper's archives? If there's a certain MO he has for killing the Hawk people, she could have researched him, that way.

That was the scenario I wished and hoped they'd have done - and better yet - they could have had her tracking him all along. Little glimpses of him all season - rather than the "surprise!" way they are doing stories now.

 

I really thought they were going to go that way when we saw Kendra working at Jitters. But no, the writers would rather give Cisco another hot girl to flirt badly with. At least this one is a bit ,more believable. I don't buy for a second that Golden Glider would be interested in him.

Well I kinda liked Cisco and GGlider, but it was a bit unrealistic... but these fanboys have to have their fantasies fulfilled, eh? Honestly it feels like that's all the women are there for... and probably the only reason Felicity (if her ardent fans here are to be believed and she's grown as a character this season and the latter part of last season when I wasn't really paying attention tbh) is growing as a female character is because EBR likely has a lot of clout that she can use with the writers. She can literally threaten to walk and they'd just give her whatever she wants. I wonder if she uses that clout for her friends (DP, KC and SVS)? I guess not KC, lol.

[dirtypop90]

I think we're meant to equate it with Eddie/Iris from last season - where we never really saw them have deep discussions of any importance.

 

But with Iris/Eddie we missed a year so they were already settled before the audience was introduced to the pairing, therefore, the audience can believe a lot happened with iris and eddie in a year that we missed out on. They were technically an established couple in the pilot, and tbh I felt that they truly cared about one another. Barry and Patty should be different because we're watching their relationship from the very beginning.

[wingster55]

I LOVED when Patty followed Wells back to Star Labs and cheered when she shot him only for everyone to react like she was a puppy that peed on the floor.  Sigh.  Really hoping she's not going to let this one go.  TELL HER!!!  At least about the mutli verse thing.

 

I think something will happen on that front next week. In her 8th episode (as opposed to Iris' 20)

 

As for Iris not being in the ep...I think that half of the time used for the Arrow cast was superfluous. Felicity's first scene was pretty unnecessary, Diggle did nothing and that last scene in the lair with Cisco was meaningless. That time could have been used on Iris. We know that next week Wally debuts...could have had her find where he is or even telling Joe. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by wingster55

[BkWurm1]

I hear you - I guess I just understood her anger. She lost her sister and Oliver in that accident, knowing that they were cheating on her and that's how they "died". Then Oliver comes back from the dead - without her sister - who is still dead. Oh and the loss of Sara destroys her parents marriage. And then eventually she loses her boyfriend, right after she sleeps with Oliver - and then Sarah came back, the show rewrote history and then ugh.

The show stacked TOO MUCH grief and horribleness on Laurel. The only realistic response was raging, vibrating anger. I'm sorry - but that really is the ONLY response in that situation. I would have put my stiletto in his throat, called my lawyer Analise and asked how I could get away with murder because this fool needs to DIE.

LOL.

They stacked so much horrible mess onto Laurel's shoulders that it would have been unrealistic for her not to break down and be raging, shaking angry 24/7.

 

 

 

 

It'll never make sense that Laurel wants to be in the same room as Oliver, but that's the setup of the show.  And it doesn't make a lot of sense to complain about Laurel having no screentime on Oliver's show and simultaneously point out that she should reasonably want to murder him/never be around him.  The most sensible outcome would be for her to leave the show, because she can't stand to be around him.  That was the case as early as the Pilot.  

 

Also, all that Oliver/Sara drama was a long time ago.  People go through things much, much worse than what Laurel went through and don't just end up vibrating with rage in perpetuity.  People heal and move on, which Laurel mostly has.  

 

Yeah, this is pretty much my confusion.  Laurel absolutely deserves to hate and be mad at Oliver forever but only if she has decided to not have him in her life.  Keeping him in her life is her choice and having her both yell at him for not being more open with her while at that same time giving him the evil eye all the time (slight exaggeration) doesn't compute and makes her character not jive. 

 

That and BC shouldn't be second fiddle to GA but this is HIS story and the show's attempt to pretend that Laurel's ten months of training is equal to Oliver's 8 years of experience makes my head hurt if I let myself think about it.  The whole team is now equal because BC can't be less than GA but by the show's logic it makes no sense that Thea who was probably better trained than Laurel and Diggle - way more experienced - would not be better than her so instead EVERYONE is now equal and argh, there is just such a cognitive disconnect between what is shown vs what is said that it is frustrating. 

 

It's why IMO the fight scenes on GA have been feeling so generic and bland. And long.   Everyone being equal has to get equal fighting time but then since Oliver has to stick around and be star, they for PLOT are constantly making him lose his fights but everyone else on the team can have their win and just get off screen.  Sigh. 

 

I actually think they do have a lot of chains lying around. I think chains are featured at least monthly on ARROW. And if we don't see the chains they mention the chains. Chains are very important to the Arrow world.

Lol

wingster55, on 02 Dec 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Not kinda...not at all.

 

Well, when I say Iris kinda broke his heart,  Barry was IN love with Iris and she chose someone else and moved in with him.  Then when Iris admitted to having feelings, but Barry's time warp made that realization go away.  And yeah, he seemed crushed to me both times.  He also was clinging to the hope that eventually he and Iris would be together ala the future newspaper (Why does no body ever go into that room anymore?  I miss Gideon) but he seemed to stop hoping altogether given Eddie's sacrifice.  Like right now not only does he act like he thinks he has no shot but he isn't worthy anyway of following in Eddie's footsteps.  Sure, it's waaaay too soon to make a play but this would be the time if he was thinking about it, to reaffirm his friendship with Iris and get back to that super close place they were in I guess before his coma. 

 

I'm not blaming Iris or saying that Felicity thinks badly of her, just that Barry's feelings for Iris were making him unhappy and now he appears to be in a good place where he's happy with someone else without hinting that he's unhappy about moving on from Iris so sure she's going to be supportive of what is making him happy.  Iris just isn't coming up in conversation.  It's not a slight against Iris. (Not from Felicity)

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

and probably the only reason Felicity (if her ardent fans here are to be believed and she's grown as a character this season and the latter part of last season when I wasn't really paying attention tbh) is growing as a female character is because EBR likely has a lot of clout that she can use with the writers. She can literally threaten to walk and they'd just give her whatever she wants. I wonder if she uses that clout for her friends (DP, KC and SVS)? I guess not KC, lol.

 

Lol, no EBR has no hotline to the writers.  SA MIGHT but EBR at this point has said she doesn't even ask about what is coming for her character since so often it doesn't materialize. 

[wingster55]

Yeah, this is pretty much my confusion.  Laurel absolutely deserves to hate and be mad at Oliver forever but only if she has decided to not have him in her life.  Keeping him in her life is her choice and having her both yell at him for not being more open with her while at that same time giving him the evil eye all the time (slight exaggeration) doesn't compute and makes her character not jive. 

 

That and BC shouldn't be second fiddle to GA but this is HIS story and the show's attempt to pretend that Laurel's ten months of training is equal to Oliver's 8 years of experience makes my head hurt if I let myself think about it.  The whole team is now equal because BC can't be less than GA but by the show's logic it makes no sense that Thea who was probably better trained than Laurel and Diggle - way more experienced - would not be better than her so instead EVERYONE is now equal and argh, there is just such a cognitive disconnect between what is shown vs what is said that it is frustrating. 

 

It's why IMO the fight scenes on GA have been feeling so generic and bland. And long.   Everyone being equal has to get equal fighting time but then since Oliver has to stick around and be star, they for PLOT are constantly making him lose his fights but everyone else on the team can have their win and just get off screen.  Sigh. 

 

Lol

Well, when I say Iris kinda broke his heart,  Barry was IN love with Iris and she chose someone else and moved in with him.  Then when Iris admitted to having feelings, but Barry's time warp made that realization go away.  And yeah, he seemed crushed to me both times.  He also was clinging to the hope that eventually he and Iris would be together ala the future newspaper (Why does no body ever go into that room anymore?  I miss Gideon) but he seemed to stop hoping altogether given Eddie's sacrifice.  Like right now not only does he act like he thinks he has no shot but he isn't worthy anyway of following in Eddie's footsteps.  Sure, it's waaaay too soon to make a play but this would be the time if he was thinking about it, to reaffirm his friendship with Iris and get back to that super close place they were in I guess before his coma. 

 

I'm not blaming Iris or saying that Felicity thinks badly of her, just that Barry's feelings for Iris were making him unhappy and now he appears to be in a good place where he's happy with someone else without hinting that he's unhappy about moving on from Iris so sure she's going to be supportive of what is making him happy.  Iris just isn't coming up in conversation.  It's not a slight against Iris. (Not from Felicity)

I guess...but last year Felicity's feelings for Oliver were making her unhappy...and look at it now. Just odd that she accepted Patty without blinking an eye. 

Oh and Gideon traveled to Gotham and got knocked up by Jim Gordon.

[Ruby25]

She accepted Patty without blinking an eye because the show desperately wants to forget that Iris and Barry were ever a thing...despite building it up for SO long last year and then never resolving it. I don't know why they're doing that, I think it's stupid and a huge mistake, and I hate it.

[BkWurm1]

I think something will happen on that front next week. In her 8th episode (as opposed to Iris' 20)

 

As for Iris not being in the ep...I think that half of the time used for the Arrow cast was superfluous. Felicity's first scene was pretty unnecessary, Diggle did nothing and that last scene in the lair with Cisco was meaningless. That time could have been used on Iris. We know that next week Wally debuts...could have had her find where he is or even telling Joe. 

Really Iris not being in the episode much is not the fault of the other characters getting time.  I mean Felicity's scene was just ongoing while everyone was fighting anyway.  Took up no time realistically. 

 

Iris not being in the episode is the result of whoever is in charge of the Flash's creative arcs being hung up on all the bromances. None of the women on The Flash are written with them in mind.  All of their storylines filter though the guys first.  Catlin gets stuff to do because she's right there surrounded by the guys.  Patty gets stuff to do because she's Joe's partner and Barry's LI.  Iris only has a storyline from her mom because she is now hiding something from her dad.  It's not about her.  Whoever is in charge doesn't think of the women and then think about how to create stories for them.  Even the woman that recognized Wells was only there to recognize Wells (and last year have history with him). 

 

Has there been any woman on the show that wasn't filtered first through a guy's story?  Even the bad girls are doing it either because of a bad boyfriend or evil dude or have to flirt with guys or be there to further the emotional story of some guy.  Seriously, that's some messed up shit going on in the writers room.

 

Still not Felicity's or Patty's or Catlin's fault.  And Laurel is a whole separate issue.  They messed up Laurel's character.  Iris they just aren't even using.  I don't know of anyone that dislikes Iris. 

I guess...but last year Felicity's feelings for Oliver were making her unhappy...and look at it now. Just odd that she accepted Patty without blinking an eye. 

Oh and Gideon traveled to Gotham and got knocked up by Jim Gordon.

And even though she still got all moony about Oliver in front of Barry WHILE she was there as Ray's girlfriend, Barry didn't push Oliver or question her feelings.

 

Lol about Gideon.  Still, she was on Gotham last year as well.   Did they change her status so she'd be contractually not allowed?  It's all ultimately for DC so I'd think there'd be wiggle room.   I think they just realized Gideon was too powerful of a tool to give the team.  So they are sticking their head in the sand and hoping the viewers forget about it (which was until this moment working on me)

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Last Time Lord]

Vandal Savage all I HAVE THE BIG STICK THAT SHOOTS BLUE GLOWY LIGHT.

I have not seen the episode, yet, but this is all I'm going to hear Savage speak.

[wingster55]

Really Iris not being in the episode much is not the fault of the other characters getting time.  I mean Felicity's scene was just ongoing while everyone was fighting anyway.  Took up no time realistically.

 

Her first scene was just a ramble, and true didn't take much time, didn't add anything. Could've been cut. 

Iris not being in the episode is the result of whoever is in charge of the Flash's creative arcs being hung up on all the bromances.

 

I mean if you look at it that way than no one can blame a character for anything ever. 

I do think that if the idea of the trio hadn't worked out as well as it did on Arrow we wouldn't see it on Flash. The show has them be Barry's main confidantes over anyone not named Joe. (Like how they were there by Barry's side when he woke up but Iris wasn't seen in that hospital type area at all) 

[Ruby25]

The way they exclude her from so many things, the little moments and everything...I just don't know how you can reach any other conclusion except that the writers just don't like or are interested in her character.

[Tazmania]

Just because an actress' name appears second to the titular lead does not automatically make her the "female lead". We have seen it with both Katie Cassidy and Candice Patton, their names do appear second, but neither of them have been second leads or female leads ... either in term of story or screen time.

It is fairly obvious that both shows have just one lead and they slowly worked out what other characters work best in the story. In Arrow, it was Tommy Merlyn, Laurel Lance and Moira Queen in initial episodes who featured more, though both Tommy & Laurel gave way to Diggle & Felicity after first 10 episodes. In Flash, Barry worked best in one on one scenes with the three parental figures in his life, his own dad, his foster dad and his mentor Dr Wells so we saw those moments more. Cisco's screen time also increased gradually because of his popularity to the extent that he is now an integral part of the main cross over event this year. Iris never really was important to any plot in The Flash. In S1, Barry was pining for her and hiding things from her, as soon as she knew the secret and Barry stopped pining for her, her purpose and link to the story ended.

Can we please all agree on that and stop calling both Candice and Katie Cassidy female leads and then get offended on their behalf? Both the shows have one lead character and then a whole bunch of supporting characters.

[Tazmania]

Just because an actress' name appears second to the titular lead does not automatically make her the "female lead". We have seen it with both Katie Cassidy and Candice Patton, their names do appear second, but neither of them have been second leads or female leads ... either in term of story or screen time.

It is fairly obvious that both shows have just one lead and they slowly worked out what other characters work best in the story. In Arrow, it was Tommy Merlyn, Laurel Lance and Moira Queen in initial episodes who featured more, though both Tommy & Laurel gave way to Diggle & Felicity after first 10 episodes. In Flash, Barry worked best in one on one scenes with the three parental figures in his life, his own dad, his foster dad and his mentor Dr Wells so we saw those moments more. Cisco's screen time also increased gradually because of his popularity to the extent that he is now an integral part of the main cross over event this year. Iris never really was important to any plot in The Flash. In S1, Barry was pining for her and hiding things from her, as soon as she knew the secret and Barry stopped pining for her, her purpose and link to the story ended.

Can we please all agree on that and stop calling both Candice and Katie Cassidy female leads and then get offended on their behalf? Both the shows have one lead character and then a whole bunch of supporting characters.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Tazmania

[Ruby25]

I basically agree with you, but I'm still offended that the character of Iris West is treated so shabbily and shafted all the time like this. It just shouldn't be the case, I'm sorry, but she's WAY too important to Flash mythos for them to be pulling this kind of crap. I'm horribly disappointed that they care so little about the character that they don't even seem to try. It just frustrates me to no end. And I can't help but wonder if this would have happened had she been played by a white actress- I know that's a disturbing thought, but like I said earlier, at this point I'm looking for explanations anywhere.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[Tazmania]

Everyone who clearly wants Iris to "investigate" stuff clearly has never been a journalist and has no clue how print journalism works. Considering she is fairly new, Iris cannot be a investigative reporter (the reporters who spend a long time and resources on uncovering expose and stuff) so she is a beat reporter. Meaning she is assigned a beat by her news editor and it could be reporting from city council, or traffic reporting or crime reporting or entertainment or politics or sports (Linda Park is the sports reporter so that's out) but none of those beats include "investigating" a 4000 years old immortal dude who is after a flying couple that gets reincarnated all the time.

This, in my opinion, is more rediculous than a telepathic gorilla.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Tazmania

[wingster55]

Everyone who clearly wants Iris to "investigate" stuff clearly has never been a journalist and has no clue how print journalism works. Considering she is fairly new, Iris cannot be a investigative reporter (the reporters who spend a long time and resources on uncovering expose and stuff) so she is a beat reporter. Meaning she is assigned a beat by her news editor and it could be reporting from city council, or traffic reporting or crime reporting or entertainment or politics or sports (Linda Park is the sports reporter so that's out) but none of those beats include "investigating" a 4000 years old immortal dude who is after a flying couple that gets reincarnated all the time.

This, in my opinion, is more rediculous than a telepathic gorilla.

No one expects the show to be 100% realistic in that regard. But she has been shown researching in the past (when she independently came up with the connection between metas and the particle accelerator).

[GreatAtBoats]

They might not be lead characters, but they are regular characters who get the shaft as compared to others, including guest stars. If it was a case of all the supporting characters getting their turns in the spotlight and then being put on the back-burner for episodes at a time, I wouldn't have a problem with Iris sitting one out, although the fact that she's the only one around since episode 1 that hasn't had anything significant to do in any crossover episodes would still be ridiculous, but that's not the case. There's always room for Cisco, and almost always room for Caitlin, Joe, and either of the Wellses, and now they're even finding time for Patty and Jay. Iris's research skills can't be put to use, but in the Arrow episode we're supposed to see

members of Team Arrow who shouldn't have anything worthwhile to contribute to the task of building a weapon, helping S.T.A.R. Labs do exactly that

. Why is Iris treated this way?

[InsertWordHere]

If I am reincarnated 203 times and never read the term Mary Sue again, it'll be too soon.

 

I like Patty. I like Felicity. But what I really came on here to talk about is my favorite relationship on either show, that of Oliver and Barry. Oh, those two are so precious with all their talk of whose city they're in and Barry running to get Oliver his quiver and bow and Oliver admitting he was wrong. Although I have no idea why they chose to unmask in front of the stranger who had just abducted the woman they were trying to protect. It seemed odd for Oliver in particular.

 

I'd say more please but I know I'm going to get more tomorrow so I can wait.  

[kismet]

Everyone who clearly wants Iris to "investigate" stuff clearly has never been a journalist and has no clue how print journalism works. Considering she is fairly new, Iris cannot be a investigative reporter (the reporters who spend a long time and resources on uncovering expose and stuff) so she is a beat reporter. Meaning she is assigned a beat by her news editor and it could be reporting from city council, or traffic reporting or crime reporting or entertainment or politics or sports (Linda Park is the sports reporter so that's out) but none of those beats include "investigating" a 4000 years old immortal dude who is after a flying couple that gets reincarnated all the time.

This, in my opinion, is more rediculous than a telepathic gorilla.

I just meant that if she went to journalism school those would be skills that she would have learned. Granted she would still need a supercomputer or something to make her investigations as quick as she needs it to be. And, it is highly unlikely that 4000y Old Immortals would be something crossing her desk as a newbie journalist.

 

Let's be honest, none of the professions on FLARROW are done with any accuracy to what the day to day life of these professions. We all have to do a lot of professional handwaving to accept 98% of how the Flarrowverse writes professional jobs. But at least it would be putting her professional skill set & training to work by having her investigate stuff for Team Flash. It's a way for them to incorporate her into the story as opposed to leaving her out of the story.

[Tazmania]

I just meant that if she went to journalism school those would be skills that she would have learned. Granted she would still need a supercomputer or something to make her investigations as quick as she needs it to be. And, it is highly unlikely that 4000y Old Immortals would be something crossing her desk as a newbie journalist.

She didn't go to journalism school, according to Flash's pilot, she was working on her post grad degree in Sociology. She was later shown to take a journalism course for credits though it makes more sense for an undergrad degree and not a postgrad one but then again, I should just ignore everything because it is a super hero show where no one cares about what happens in professions like journalism, law or running an actual Fortune 500 company.

[dirtypop90]

Just because an actress' name appears second to the titular lead does not automatically make her the "female lead". We have seen it with both Katie Cassidy and Candice Patton, their names do appear second, but neither of them have been second leads or female leads ... either in term of story or screen time.

It is fairly obvious that both shows have just one lead and they slowly worked out what other characters work best in the story. In Arrow, it was Tommy Merlyn, Laurel Lance and Moira Queen in initial episodes who featured more, though both Tommy & Laurel gave way to Diggle & Felicity after first 10 episodes. In Flash, Barry worked best in one on one scenes with the three parental figures in his life, his own dad, his foster dad and his mentor Dr Wells so we saw those moments more. Cisco's screen time also increased gradually because of his popularity to the extent that he is now an integral part of the main cross over event this year. Iris never really was important to any plot in The Flash. In S1, Barry was pining for her and hiding things from her, as soon as she knew the secret and Barry stopped pining for her, her purpose and link to the story ended.

Can we please all agree on that and stop calling both Candice and Katie Cassidy female leads and then get offended on their behalf? Both the shows have one lead character and then a whole bunch of supporting characters.

 

Katie was originally the female lead though. She was shafted for EBR. Iris fans are hoping the same doesn't happen to Candice. Not all shows have female or male leads but Arrow and the Flash did because they had comic book canon pairings that the writers were setting up in the pilots. Not to mention, the Lance and West families were introduced in the pilots which further indicated Laurel and Iris' status as female lead and importance to the show.   Of course, on arrow they moved away from Katie as lead, but that doesn't mean she wasn't originally planned and introduced as female lead.

 

I'm not interested in the "characters being worked out" if that means Candice will be pushed aside for someone else. I've followed the flash since promo for season one started and every indication was Iris was the most important female character on the show, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it, and that is all we are saying. Not interested in the bait and switch.

Edited December 2, 2015 by dirtypop90

[BkWurm1]

Her first scene was just a ramble, and true didn't take much time, didn't add anything. Could've been cut.

It reintroduced Felicty to the audience. Got into her "ramble" some specific character exposition. Not just running point, but super smart and in a relationship with Oliver and has verbal gaffes. They reviewed most of who she is to the show in a couple lines.

I mean if you look at it that way than no one can blame a character for anything ever.

I do think that if the idea of the trio hadn't worked out as well as it did on Arrow we wouldn't see it on Flash. The show has them be Barry's main confidantes over anyone not named Joe. (Like how they were there by Barry's side when he woke up but Iris wasn't seen in that hospital type area at all)

Well since the conversation topic was why Iris was not included in the crossover, I don't know why I would blame the other characters rather than the writers since she could have been easily written in if the writers used an ounce of creativity.

Barry needs his team for the day to day episodic dealings with the bad guy but honestly, there was no need for the Flash B plot in this episode at all...unless the speed formula comes up in the Arrow crossover part but so far it feels like that part of the episode was meaningless to the story being told in the crossover and it took up way more time than Oliver's Baby Mama drama.

So right there would have been oodles of time in the show. I still think making Iris Kendra's friend makes so much more sense than Cisco dating Kendra but hey, they could have easily gone both routes if they wanted. Not like Iris was too busy with her other storylines

And it's not like what Patty or Catlin or Felicity do on the show is stuff that they'd have Iris do instead. Their scenes are about Barry in relation to either their job (physician or cop or Team Arrow) or their personal interaction (LI and crossover friend).

Iris should have her own stuff but I don't see that the other women that show up on the show are doing what Iris should be doing or taking her "job" so to speak, for example, last year Barry couldn't talk to Iris about his worries over Team Flash since she didn't even know he was theFlash. So Felicity getting the pep talk is something no one else could have done even if Iris and Barry are closer and know each other better.

Catlins always around when Barry is hurt because she's his doctor. So as his friend too, it's easy for her to say something. Again, of course they should have had Iris visit him when his spinal cord was mending but it's not his team's fault for hogging up his recover time at Star Labs.

I complain when something a certain character should be doing is illogically given to someone else but there are reall good in show reasons why other characters have their scenes. Again I repeat that doesn't mean that Iris should not also be around or get a say in what's going on in Barry's life (or even just BE in his life) but the writers don't IMO take "Iris duties" away and give them to the other characters, rather it feels like the writers just forget (for lack of a more precise reason) to also write for Iris altogether and don't think to change a scene enough so Iris is the more logical character to have a moment with Barry.

So yeah, I blame the writers, not the other characters for the Iris problem. (Her absence and under use)

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Actionmage]

What the audience is supposed to get out of Barry/Patty is Barry getting experience in a relationship.

 

Only, unlike the professions shown, whatever Barry has with Patty isn't a relationship. A couple of dates, some shared interests, a few kisses and lots and lots of lies, starting with  what Barry and Joe actually get up to when she catches them sneaking off.

 

I get where Barry's i.d. isn't Joe's to divulge (Crisco!), but? When Barry casually tells Lyla last year and Clarissa Stein and half of his rogues, why Barry hasn't gone public or told Patty  seems really disingenuous.  Plus, what the hell is Patty supposed to think when Joe and Barry are bald-faced lying to her?

 

About this episode:

 

*ITA about Mystery Son Queen and Ex of Mystery. Maybe Oliver can call McKenna or Iris to look into it...on Arrow.

*Carter is a dick in all incarnations, so at least this is consistent.

*I love when the old-school weapons come out, so Oliver and his arrows vs. Carter and his morning star was wondrous for me!

*Thea is taking names and tellin' folks to take seats. Mr. Savage had better listen, though we know he won't.

*Harry actually thanked Jay. I hoped he would, but I wasn't banking on it.

*Hey, Caitlin, if Harry needs to have a hole in his lung-heart area closed, now that the bullet is out, maybe you could do so instead of smile at Jay? Or at least make like you are prepping to do so? I know it went to an ad break, but that just struck me wrong.

*Damien Dark's utter delight in having something new to think about was hilarious and a bit worrying. If Damien gets bored in Star City, he may decide to take the train to Central City. Where they can't Pipeline the elusive Mr. Dark. (I'm over his fancypants 'h'.)

[BkWurm1]

Katie was originally the female lead though. She was shafted for EBR. Iris fans are hoping the same doesn't happen to Candice. Not all shows have female or male leads but Arrow and the Flash did because they had comic book canon pairings that the writers were setting up in the pilots. Not to mention, the Lance and West families were introduced in the pilots which further indicated Laurel and Iris' status as female lead and importance to the show. Of course, on arrow they moved away from Katie as lead, but that doesn't mean she wasn't originally planned and introduced as female lead.

I'm not interested in the "characters being worked out" if that means Candice will be pushed aside for someone else. I've followed the flash since promo for season one started and every indication was Iris was the most important female character on the show, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it, and that is all we are saying. Not interested in the bait and switch.

In reality while what happened to Laurel - not ending up the female "lead" in anything but credit position might look similar to what is happening with Iris, it is not.

Laurel, the whole characterization and back story for her (not to mention the actor chemistry) was IMO a failure. As a big old mess of a character (and opinions on to what degree this is true of course differ) the show went looking for a solution. The thing that the shows seems to think was the winning fix was to remove Laurel from Oliver's love life or close personal sphere but to let her join the team. But without a more direct connection to Olivers story, she is IMO less relevant to his story, she gets less screen time.

In that aspect it might appear that she and Iris are having the same problem, reduced relevance to the lead's story so reduced screen time. But Iris isn't as far as I can tell, a failed character. People IMO generally like Iris. Their was IMO a bit of a stumble by emphasizing Barry and Iris being "like" brother and sister but in general I hear people willing to get passed that. I haven't heard from anyone that they don't like Iris, just that she has no storyline.

The character isn't the failure. The writing is and in this case what I mean is that she just doesn't get included. She as a character is perfectly nice and smart and loving and loyal, but she almost from the beginning hasn't been allowed to do enough.

In Laurel's case I wanted as little of her as possible. Find the character a hot mess that I just have to live with. But Iris isn't really controversial. I think she's mostly liked. I think the audience would welcome seeing more from Candice Patton. Iris seems stalled right now, but nothing in my viewing of the show has made me think she's being phased out or swapped for a different end game.

I think Laurel is where she is on the show because that is the limit to what the writers think she should get screen time. (Sometime I think she still gets too much) But Iris's lack of screen time seems to be based not on the audiences reception but the show runners lazy writing. Iris is overlooked and forgotten, but through negligence not as a solution IMO to a problem character.

Laurel wasn't shafted in favor of Felicity, Felicity was the shows solution when Laurel as a character didn't work the way they wanted.

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[millennium]

I'll be glad when the storylines of The Flash and Arrow are no longer being sub-let as launching pads for Legends of Tomorrow.   Between Firestorm, The Atom, Sarah Lance, and now the Hawks, it feels like this has been going on forever.    This is the longest introduction I've ever seen.   Is the new series so weak that it can't stand on its own without all the prologue?

 

Oh, and Patty Spigot?   Please just go away.

Edited December 2, 2015 by millennium

[cambridgeguy]

Hey Barry, do you want to take a second to capture Damian Darhk?  No, not worth the effort even though the guy was just standing there?

 

It was a little odd that no one commented on Oliver running for mayor.  That's pretty big news, even if it's not on par with Zoom parading around with a beaten Barry.

 

At the very least I hope Candice Patton is getting paid by the episode - getting paid to do nothing isn't the worst thing in the world.

[BkWurm1]

Her personality isn't. When she was casted, she was promoted as Barry's Felicity. And the casting call described her as bright and scientific-minded and actually stated, “Think ‘Felicity Smoak’ from Arrow” http://tvline.com/2015/06/10/the-flash-season-2-barry-new-love-interest-felicity/. 

Well, given that the pics I've seen of her in the comics have her smiling, blond and wearing glasses, I can see why they would use the short hand of "think FS". In the end, Patty isn't really like Felicity except for a general positive attitude. They even dropped the glasses.

[LisaM]

 

I see that Jay apparently spent his off-screen time, getting a haircut.

 

Yes! Not a Jay fan and this was my only thought when he appeared.

[Advance35]

Still not Felicity's or Patty's or Catlin's fault.  And Laurel is a whole separate issue.  They messed up Laurel's character.  Iris they just aren't even using.  I don't know of anyone that dislikes Iris.

 

This is my problem and in truth, what has probably turned me against the Iris character.   The tearing down of pretty much every other female character by fandom, ugh.  I use to bounce between like and disinterest, depending on what Iris was doing per episode, but these days, ugh.  

 

I have know doubt Ms. West is going to come to prominence, I just know I'm not going to be able to appreciate it when it happens.  Sigh, the downside to messageboards.

 

And I agree with whoever said the show is called "Flash".   Everyone eles is supporting in my eyes.

[phoenics]

Lol, no EBR has no hotline to the writers.  SA MIGHT but EBR at this point has said she doesn't even ask about what is coming for her character since so often it doesn't materialize.

Wow - so the writers just write for her and give her gobs of screen time on their own.

 

This is my problem and in truth, what has probably turned me against the Iris character.   The tearing down of pretty much every other female character by fandom, ugh.  I use to bounce between like and disinterest, depending on what Iris was doing per episode, but these days, ugh.  

 

I have know doubt Ms. West is going to come to prominence, I just know I'm not going to be able to appreciate it when it happens.  Sigh, the downside to messageboards.

 

And I agree with whoever said the show is called "Flash".   Everyone eles is supporting in my eyes.

Well the writers appear to hate Iris and love the other women characters (Laurel probably gets more screen time than Iris now), so you've got that going for you.

I actually had been turned off of Felicity in S2 of Arrow. It had nothing to do with Iris, since The Flash wasn't on yet. And agreed that everyone else is "supporting", but for some reason the same is true on Arrow - yet Felicity gets nearly all of the "female" screen time on that show. And in S1-2, Laurel did. So there is such a thing as the lead actress or top billed one and on The Flash, that's CP/Iris. She's billed before Pannabaker, when Patton should come after if this was a truly ensemble cast.

It's NOT. Roswell tried to pull the SAME "we're an ensemble" BS during its season 2 and wallpapered Shiri Appleby, who was clearly the female lead in S1. The fans revolted and the ratings dropped. They brought her back to prominence and ratings went up by like 2 million. Then they sidelined her AGAIN in S3 and shoved Katherine Heigl down our throats and the show slipped into last place in the ratings.

I do think that The CW is teasing Iris fans and the spoilers and press and everything from the cast makes it look like she has a large role this year, but it's not materializing onscreen. It's baffling. They clearly want Iris fans to tune in, but they don't want to feature her.

Again - they love to tout their "diversity". but are resorting to racist tropes in their portrayal of Iris (Strong Black Woman and Magical Negro - more details in the lightning rods thread) and have made her into a token who no longer really matters to the story.

Also - my only issue with Patty is that she's like some kind of fanboy focus group result. But I did feel sorry for her when she shot Harrison and was scolded like a puppy.

And imagine how Iris fans feel right now - seeing Iris marginalized and other characters taking screen time (even guest stars) and then when something SHOULD affect Iris, she's given no PoV and is treated like a bit player in huge events in her own life.

If they were going to treat Iris this way - they never should have done it. It's almost like the show wasn't sure they would make it and were like, "sure, let's take a chance on the black girl" in S1 Eps 1-9, but then once the show became a hit, reverted back to the usual status quo and doubled down on it. It's like how companies in distress turn to minority (women and ethnic minority) CEOs, but then once the company makes it out of the tough times, they go back to white male CEOs. This is a statistical fact, btw, based on a McKinsey report I just read.

Even the new spoilers show Iris supporting Barry once again - whereas we still haven't seen any support go from Barry to Iris this season except for a throwaway line when Barry was blind.

Ugh - I guess I need to take this to the Iris or Lightning Rod threads.

Edited December 2, 2015 by phoenics

[apinknightmare]

Wow - so the writers just write for her and give her gobs of screen time on their own.

Uh...yeah? What kind of pull do you think she has? This is her first mainstream job - she's barely out of nobody territory. It seems to me that the reason they give her screen time is because TPTB have stats indicating that the general audience likes and responds positively to her. Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[phoenics]

Uh...yeah? What kind of pull do you think she has? This is her first mainstream job - she's barely out of nobody territory. It seems to me that the reason they give her screen time is because TPTB have stats indicating that the general audience likes and responds positively to her.

Exactly the reason I thought she had some kind of pull with them and could make suggestions on how to write Felicity better? Which is why I thought perhaps Felicity had improved (according to fans watching now) beyond my initial impression of her in S1-2 as a Mary Sue?

[roomtorome]

Oliver/Arrow desperately needs some humor and a personality, generally. I find the actor brings nothing but a flat affect to the role so I am usually bored whenever he shows up and the reason I stopped watching Arrow over a year ago. He is so bloody dull

I like the actor playing Flash as he has spunk, as Mr. Grant might say. He has some layers and I think, overall he delivers the comedic lines pretty well.

For me, the Flash is held together by Joe. I love the character. I think they struck gold with him and I like how he is written. He brings much of the heart to the show. That is missing from Arrow. To me, anyway.

[apinknightmare]

Exactly the reason I thought she had some kind of pull with them and could make suggestions on how to write Felicity better? Which is why I thought perhaps Felicity had improved (according to fans watching now) beyond my initial impression of her in S1-2 as a Mary Sue?

My question was why you think she has any pull at all - she's under contract and basically a nobody. She has absolutely no leverage to make anyone do what she wants. If the writing for her has improved (personally, I think she's the same as she's always been, but I've never seen her as a Mary Sue), it's probably to do with an actual improvement on the part of whoever is writing her at any given time.

[Primetimer]

Teams Flash and Arrow join forces against a new enemy who's so deadly, he's going to need his own show.

Read the story

[miracole]

Everyone who clearly wants Iris to "investigate" stuff clearly has never been a journalist and has no clue how print journalism works.

 

That's not all she does though. Iris specifically got her job because of the blogging she did about Metahumans. Why would she stop that now when she has a direct tie to Metahumans and greater resources to research them?

Edited December 2, 2015 by miracole

[SevenStars]

The only one I blame for the writing or lack of writing for Iris are the writers.

I don't watch Arrow so I don't care about Felicity or Laurel, except I feel sorry for Laurel's fans because it most hard to be fan of a character the majority of the Fandom seems to hate. As for Felicit, she doesn't add on anything to Flash for me when she comes over,so whatever.

I don't care one way or another about Patty or Patty/Barry. They can be end-game for all I care as long as the writers start writing for Iris and give her a pov.

I just hope we are done with crossover for at least this season.

Also, this show is reminding me of why I have stay away from CW in the past.

[SevenStars]

We are watching a show about superheroes with powers,people hacking into major systems within minutes, and etc all so they can be part of the main story. So I don't understand the need for Iris being journalist to be the most accurate or realistic thing on the show when it prevents her from being part of the main story. So whatever.

Etd:stupid typos

Edited December 2, 2015 by SevenStars

[venusnv80]

Exactly, I love how realism starts to play a part when we talk about Iris being integrated into the team more. I can't even deal. Lol!

[AyChihuahua]

She can literally threaten to walk and they'd just give her whatever she wants. I wonder if she uses that clout for her friends (DP, KC and SVS)?

That's...completely not how contracts work.  And I am a contracts attorney.

Edited December 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chicago Redshirt]

So it's come to this: Oliver Queen's bastard gets more screen time in a "Flash" episode and as many lines as Iris. I literally didn't notice her in this episode.

[Tazmania]

Well since the conversation topic was why Iris was not included in the crossover, I don't know why I would blame the other characters rather than the writers since she could have been easily written in if the writers used an ounce of creativity.

I still think making Iris Kendra's friend makes so much more sense than Cisco dating Kendra but hey, they could have easily gone both routes if they wanted. Not like Iris was too busy with her other storylines

....

So yeah, I blame the writers, not the other characters for the Iris problem. (Her absence and under use)

There is a reason they chose to introduce Kendra to the audience via Cisco and not Iris even though that romance was destined to be doomed. These crossovers are important events and the producers want to give maximum screen time to their more popular characters, that's Cisco - a far more popular character than Iris on the show - who was chosen to be part of this story. Yes, Iris has comic book history, but the TV audience chose to react more favourably for Cisco and that is how network TV works. Give more screen time to things that work with the audience and less time to those who fail to connect.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Tazmania

[Ruby25]

It's like they haven't even TRIED with Iris though. They just don't use her, period. For example, a dynamic this season that I think showed promise/potential was the setup with her and Linda at the news. That would immediately be something that gives her material outside of Barry to work with, and they could be investigative reporters together, looking up metahumans or something, I don't know. They should get rid of Patty and bring Linda back to set that up, since presumably they're going to need her for the Wally storyline eventually.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Setting The Stage
Teams Flash and Arrow join forces against a new enemy who's so deadly, he's going to need his own show.

[CabotCove]

Great episode, one of the best of the season so far. 

 

I thought that the introduction to the Hawks was great,  I will follow them to LOT,  Im sold on Firestorm, Atom, White Canary too. 

 

Barry and Felicity scenes get better and better with each crossover, I like that they finally have Cisco/Felicity directly interacting too.

Caitlin & Wells work well together. I actually liked Jay in this episode, I thought the acting was  better than before.

 

I dont understand the exclusion of Iris in this crossover, she had more screentime in the last crossover when she didnt even know about any of these weird stuff.  And apparently everyone from Arrow can crossover except Laurel. So much worse when she finally is Black Canary. I guess once you fall behind, you can never catch up? Its like their formula of writing female love interest never changes even when the circumstances have.

 

I dont mind the kid storyline on The Flash, the kid and his mother are residents of Central City, that makes it partly a Flashverse story IMO. And its now a shared universe anyway, they will likely be plenty of this cross-pollination, now with 3 shows. 

 

Yes, Iris has comic book history, but the TV audience chose to react more favourably for Cisco and that is now network TV works. Give more screen time to things that work with the audience and less time to those who fail to connect.

 

I disagree that Iris has failed to connect, I see a lot of love and passion for the character. And even if thats what  they were going with, how come characters like Caitlin and Thea get so much focus?, these characters dont really stand out in popularity. Not hated but most usually met with indifference. Iris is doing so much better yet she still cant get this "favour". Different standards for different characters?.

Edited December 2, 2015 by WildcardC

[miracole]

Exactly, I love how realism starts to play a part when we talk about Iris being integrated into the team more. I can't even deal. Lol!

 

Especially when every journalist on every TV show ever is all about investigating and hunting down the story. But no not Iris she must follow real world rules as people from other dimensions keep showing up to hang out with her peeps.

[Chicago Redshirt]

With regards to Patty, she actually totally deserved to be scolded. She trespassed on private property at STAR Labs (so much for the enhanced security measures there, BTW) and shot an unarmed man. Last I saw, cops aren't supposed to do these things. 

 

Her excuse -- that she thought he was armed -- doesn't really fly IMO since a) she was threatening to shoot before he manifested any threat and b) the syringe he was holding doesn't look much like a gun. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[CabotCove]

By the way, I don't like how Barry just calls Oliver "Ollie" now. Why does he get to be the person besides Thea and Laurel to call him that? I thought was reserved for childhood friends and family. A small nitpick, but I didn't like that.

 

I dont think its ever been established in canon that only childhood family & friends can use "Ollie". Ollie is a known short name for Oliver. Some people like to use nicknames/short names for other people, that could be the kind of person Barry is. 

 

Aww, Cisco's time with Kendra is already at an end!  No way can he compete against a guy whose apparently been her "soulmate" for several life times.

 

John stewart did and got the girl. On the animated show Justice League Unlimited,  Hawkgirl ended up with someone else not Hawkman. As long as Cisco/Kendra are in the same universe, there could still be a chance.  Kendra could  meet someone she likes more than Carter, be it Cisco or someone else on LOT. Or Hawkman could find someone else or one could die. I just think a lot can happen in a TV show, especially with the kind of show LOT seems to be and also having a shared universe.

Edited December 2, 2015 by WildcardC