S02.E08: Loplop

[ToastnBacon]

And 2015, everywhere. Like you, I know they've been dealing with racism, whether explicitly shown in episodes or not.

I spent a year in Montana in the 1980s and was shocked at the amount of racial tension between Indians and whites.

I'm not talking about institutional racism, but how people interacted on the streets of Great Falls.

It was very screwed up. As an airman stationed there, the locals, white or Indian weren't very friendly to us either.

I was glad to get the hell out of there.

Edited December 3, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[shapeshifter]

Ed started out moral, and I think he still believes he can return there, but after you've ground up an entire human body into hamburger--well, no amount of Hamburger Helper is going to undo that. Heh. Maybe that's what he was thinking of when he bought it.

Ed didn't buy the Hamburger Helper. He just looked at it.

Even better! Edited December 3, 2015 by shapeshifter

[ToastnBacon]

Ed didn't buy the Hamburger Helper. He just looked at it.

Even better!

And he did it with that signature Jesse Plemmons blinking gaze. He almost has a bovine quality about his face which made it even better. Edited December 3, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[ChipBach]

Yep, like the poor guy who had the misfortune of killing John Gotti's son in a car vs. mini-bike collision. The accident wasn't his fault, but he still disappeared from the face of the earth shortly thereafter. 

 I cringe every time I hear that story.  I believe I heard speculated that Victoria Gotti (was that Johns wife or daughter?), or whomever his wife was, had a hand making sure that dude got his unjust desserts.  That is why it made me sick to think we actually had a TV show on those people...

 

Simone was sleeping with the enemy.  Her little phone call got the family HQ shot up and Otto killed.  

 

You think Floyd is fine with all that cause Simone is a girl?  I don't.  

 She had Bear's father killed with no remorse at all.  It could have been Floyd or him for that matter.  He does not need apologize, simply tell his mom what Simone did...

[Juliegirlj]

Regarding Hanzee's reasons for killing Dodd: there are theories floating around that Hanzee is half Gerhardt, and Dodd's calling him a half breed could have a double meaning- half Indian/ half white, but also half Gerhardt/ half....not. In the earlier episodes when they were in Floyd's kitchen there was an American Indian housekeeper obediently baking bread. She could be a kind of indentured servant to the Gerhardts, who serviced Otto and produced a love child. It would add another entire layer of why Hanzee resented Dodd so much.

[Nutjob]

I don't think we're meant to think of Hanzee or Mike as absolved simply because they've dealt with racist garbage. They've chosen to align themselves with the mob and are unapologetic murderers--that kind of implies their morals are not exactly sparkly. I'd say the same for Simone. I sympathize with Hanzee--shoot, I'm a "half-breed" myself. I'm half Cherokee, and you would not believe some of the ignorant, racist nonsense I've had people say to/in front of me because they didn't know I'm biracial, and for some reason assumed all white people think that's an OK thing to do. I simply think the racism was used as a conductor for Hanzee to snap and turn on Dodd more than anything, and a method to remind us why it's so important for Mike to prove himself to his higher ups.

[SoothingDave]

 She had Bear's father killed with no remorse at all.  It could have been Floyd or him for that matter.  He does not need apologize, simply tell his mom what Simone did...

 

It's quite possible that Bear did inform his mom before he took care of Simone.  Or right after.  

[cpcathy]

Floyd asked where Simone was right when Bear came back from the woods, he gave her an excuse. I don't think Floyd knows, it seems she really wanted Simone to be groomed for something greater in the family structure.

[editorgrrl]

[Hanzee] can't go back because Bear would kill him. Now that everything is in shambles and the Gerhardts aren't really capable of chasing after him, he might've recognized the opportunity to off [Dodd] and get the hell out of there.

I assume Hanzee will tell Floyd and Bear the Butcher of Luverne killed Dodd—a callback to Dodd forcing Hanzee to say the Butcher killed Rye.

[Conan Troutman]

I assume Hanzee will tell Floyd and Bear the Butcher of Luverne killed Dodd—a callback to Dodd forcing Hanzee to say the Butcher killed Rye.

 

That might work short term (and it may give him a head start so they won't be coming after him immediately), but they'll find out eventually how Dodd died. They still have the shit cop to give them info, plus the story will likely hit the news - Hanzee was already on the front page of the newspaper. They will find out that Dodd has been shot (and the Butcher of Luverne never used guns before) and they'll likely find out it was done with the same gun that killed a couple of cops and the barkeep, which would link it to Hanzee. I think there's really no way he could keep that lie up more than a couple of days or weeks at best.

 

Besides, he said he's tired of this life and wanted to literally cut ties with it (nice way to tie that together with Peggy's job), so he doesn't even want to go back. If he wants to run away, why go back? Now's the best opportunity he'll ever get and probably the last one, too. Plus he'd now get charged for murder by the police, so even if Floyd and Bear would somehow swallow that story, they wouldn't be able to protect him from the cops.

[ToastnBacon]

Hanzee might have killed Dodd on Bear's orders.

We don't know that he didn't switch to Bear's side.

[lidarose9]

Maybe Hanzee decided to join the Kansas City mob, since it was obvious they are taking over. Thus, the haircut. Wants to look professional. 

 

Maybe he meant to kill Dodd all along, and Ed and Peggy were just incidental. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by lidarose9

[ToastnBacon]

Maybe Hanzee decided to join the Kansas City mob, since it was obvious they are taking over. Thus, the haircut. Wants to look professional. 

 

Maybe he meant to kill Dodd all along, and Ed and Peggy were just incidental.

You know, that makes more sense than my theory of connecting the haircut to him being smitten with Constance.

I sure as hell hope they explain what that was all about.

[Conan Troutman]

Hanzee might have killed Dodd on Bear's orders.

We don't know that he didn't switch to Bear's side.

 

In-universe, it's possible. But that would make the whole sequence about the racism rather pointless. It's supposed to show us that Hanzee reached a breaking point and just couldn't take it any more, thus finally snapping when all he got from Dodd for rescuing him was yet another insult. That's why he killed him, not because Bear gave him the order.

 

I'm also sure he won't just switch sides. How would that be an improvement? All that would change is that he'd be getting crapped on by different people. Just ask Mike Milligan.

 

As for the hair cut, that was simply a visualization of "cutting ties", here it's the hair that's a symbol for his former life, the one he's had enough of and wants to leave behind. If people radically change their lives, there's often a visual change, be it style of clothing or a different hair style, going along with it. Peggy wasn't about to give him just the hair cut, her actions in this season were also the catalyst that set the events in motion that allowed Hanzee to reach a position where he could make that decision. Thinking about that, it makes me wonder if it's important that they were interrupted by Lou and Hank before she could cut a single hair. You could say that Hanzee wants to leave his life behind and run, but the police has already caught up on him and now it's too late.

 

ETA:

Hanzee's whole situation could make for another nice musical callback to the Coen verse. I'm thinking of Bob Dylan's The Man in Me:

 

The man in me will do nearly any task

As for compensation, there's a little he will ask

Take a woman like you

To get through to the man in me.

 

Storm clouds are raging all around my door

I think to myself I might not take it anymore

Take a woman like your kind

To find the man in me.

 

But, oh what a wonderful feeling

Just to know that you are near

It sets my heart a-reeling

From my toes up to my ears.

 

The man in me will hide sometimes to keep from being seen

But that's just because he doesn't want to turn into some machine

Take a woman like you

To get through to the man in me.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Nutjob]

 

As for the hair cut, that was simply a visualization of "cutting ties", here it's the hair that's a symbol for his former life, the one he's had enough of and wants to leave behind.

It's also a symbol of the half of him everyone seems to hate. If he cuts his hair, maybe he can "pass." After all, one of the first things the government did to Native boys who were sent to boarding schools during assimilation was cut their hair. Maybe the slurs and insults stop because people start assuming more often that he's white (my mom is often assumed to be of Italian or some other olive-skinned, European ethnicity), and a simple hair cut might be all he needs.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Nutjob

[Domestic Assassin]

Peggy wasn't about to give him just the hair cut, her actions in this season were also the catalyst that set the events in motion that allowed Hanzee to reach a position where he could make that decision. Thinking about that, it makes me wonder if it's important that they were interrupted by Lou and Hank before she could cut a single hair.

 

 

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that Peggy didn't grab a comb when she got the scissors to give him a professional haircut?  Was that just an oversight or was it deliberate on the show's part?

[WTEngel]

So when Peggy spaced out while she was watching that movie, was that by chance the movie that Regan was talking about in "Gift of the Magi" (ep 5) while he was taking a leak next to Lou?

 

I am not sure how it fits in quite yet, but there is a reason she spaced out to that movie in particular. It is some foreshadowing or call-back possibly, or both. 

 

Anyway, I will need to go back and re-watch ep 5 to see if there is anything to this...

[shapeshifter]

Hanzee might have killed Dodd on Bear's orders.

We don't know that he didn't switch to Bear's side.

In-universe, it's possible. But that would make the whole sequence about the racism rather pointless. It's supposed to show us that Hanzee reached a breaking point and just couldn't take it any more, thus finally snapping when all he got from Dodd for rescuing him was yet another insult. That's why he killed him, not because Bear gave him the order

Those two reasons for killing Dodd are not mutually exclusive. I mean, Hanzee could have been intending to kill Dodd, and then when Dodd made the racially insulting remarks, it just made his death sweeter to Hanzee--especially after Hanzee's earlier encounters that day with the now-dead bigots--and removed any doubts about killing Dodd that Hanzee had--althought now that I type this, I realize Hanzee does not seem to be a person who ever has doubts.

Anyway, Dodd's remarks indicated that he knew Hanzee did have parents of different ethnic backgrounds, which was not obvious to the other guys who picked a fight with him for being Indian. I keep wondering if "Hanzee" is linguistically related to the name "Hans." Regardless, I hope they reveal Hanzee's exact relation to the family, and that it is narratively satisfying.

Edited December 3, 2015 by shapeshifter

[editorgrrl]

So when Peggy spaced out while she was watching that movie, was that by chance the movie that Regan was talking about in "Gift of the Magi" (ep 5) while he was taking a leak next to Lou?

Yes, Peggy was watching "the South Dakota morning movie, Operation Eagle's Nest starring Ronald Reagan." In "Gift of the Magi," Reagan said:

I remember back in '42, America just joined the war. I was working on, uh, Operation Eagle's Nest for Paramount. [urinal flushes] I got dropped behind enemy lines trying to rescue Jimmy Whitmore and Laraine Day from this SS commando. Bob Stack was on loan from Selznick. That Nazi bastard had us cornered. We were done for, but in the end, with a little American ingenuity we managed to, uh. [Zips pants] Oh, no. No, no, wait a minute. Um. Come to think of it, I don't think we made it out of that one. Or did we? Oh shit, I can't remember. Well, either way it was a fine picture.

[Nutjob]

And in this scenario, she sees Ed as the man willing to take all the bullets for her so she can be "free." What she doesn't get is that Lou is trying his best to save them both just like Reagan's character and they keep kicking him out.

[AuntiePam]

Am I the only one bothered by the fact that Peggy didn't grab a comb when she got the scissors to give him a professional haircut?  Was that just an oversight or was it deliberate on the show's part?

 

What bothered me was that she was going to cut his hair when it was dry.  We know he wouldn't agree to a shampoo, but his hair should have been wet, for a decent cut. 

 

No, she didn't do any of the normal beautician things.  No fluffing, no mirror, no "Do you want layers?  How about bangs?" 

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Remind me again, how many murders has she committed?

Murder is far from the worst evil for many folks, myself included.

 

Connie's evil was to intentionally attempt to break apart a marriage so as to steal the wife for herself.  Wickedness.

 

Hanzee is a stone-cold murderer.  How did he come to that point?  Was it taught?  Was it nurtured by the hate, and worse, the indifference of his countrymen?  The very same folks for whom he was placed in a hell on earth?  There is a wonderful debate to be had regarding the nature and degrees of evil around that man's life.  One of my favorite lines across several productions I've seen, is "He needed killing."  To me, that line fully applies to just about all of Hanzee's victims.

 

I'm just one PTV member.  All I am doing is sharing my honest take on things.  OK, then.   

[Eyes High]

Yes, Peggy was watching "the South Dakota morning movie, Operation Eagle's Nest starring Ronald Reagan." In "Gift of the Magi," Reagan said:

 

Interesting. Reagan can't remember whether or not they (meaning his character and the lovers) made it out. Now, as I recall, in the movie Peggy was watching the Nazi is temporarily felled, allowing them to get away, but it turns out that he's not dead and gets to his feet and moves after them. Also, the scenario Reagan is describing suggests that the Nazi corners all three at some point, as opposed to the scenario Peggy watches, which is Reagan's character rescuing the lovers. So maybe Reagan's character and the two lovers do die. The movie leaves off at the lovers getting at least a temporary reprieve, the same way Ed and Peggy do at the end of 2x08 from Lou and Hank, but the threat (the Nazi in the movie, pretty much everyone after the Blomquists) is still viable.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Eyes High

[pasdetrois]

Some tribes abhor cutting their hair. They will cut it short, as a sign of grief and in mourning, or they will cut off a braid while grieving. My Mandan friend wore a single braid for years, and cut it off when her grandmother died. When a member of my community died young, we had a memorial powwow and her female relatives had cut their hair short. My Oneida friend had waist-length hair, and when doctors wanted to shave his head for brain surgery (after a terrible car accident), he fought them so hard they sedated him.

Don't know if any if this applies to Hanzee's story. When he told Peggy to cut his hair, I did take it as meaning some kind of emotional stepping away from his situation and family, rather than as an effort to hide his identify.

Edited December 4, 2015 by pasdetrois

[Rockstar99435]

Also, when Dodd was listing all examples of good men destroyed by women, he lists Samson. Samson had super strength until a woman cut his hair, the source of his power. Right now, Hanzee's "power" comes from his ability to live outside the law. If Peggy had succeed in cutting his hair, Hanzee would have given up his outlaw life and become a law-abiding citizen. And then he wouldn't have been able to be as vicious because he would have something to lose.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[mrsbagnet]

Hanzee finally actualized. 

 

Seriously, he took advantage of the opportunity.  Dodd was presumed dead.  He had people he could blame the death on.  And he'd had enough crap for one day.

 

Perhaps he was suffering from a Racial Tension Headache (trademark SNL).

 

I think the seed for Hanzee killing Dodd was planted the day that Bear was thanking Hanzee for his service and Dodd broke in with "Stop talking to my man." Dodd saw himself as Hanzee's master, and I think Hanzee had finally had enough of that. He'd just killed two cops, so he knew he'd have to get out of the life, and he had to kill Dodd to be totally free. So hatred of Dodd + getting crap all day + the possibility of Ed and Peggy as scapegoats = goodbye Dodd.

 

I really wanted to see that professional haircut, too.

 

I was sitting at work today laughing at the scene between Hanzee and the store clerk. How could Hanzee not have known that "I'm looking for a red-head" would be interpreted as him looking for a woman? I think that I lost it when the clerk told him maybe he could find a "fat-type girl" at the bar. I wonder if the actors had trouble getting through the scene straight-faced.

[roughing it]

 

I think that I lost it when the clerk told him maybe he could find a "fat-type girl" at the bar. I wonder if the actors had trouble getting through the scene straight-faced.

I would love to see some outtakes from this season.

[ToastnBacon]

I was sitting at work today laughing at the scene between Hanzee and the store clerk. How could Hanzee not have known that "I'm looking for a red-head" would be interpreted as him looking for a woman? I think that I lost it when the clerk told him maybe he could find a "fat-type girl" at the bar. I wonder if the actors had trouble getting through the scene straight-faced.

That was another nod to the movie Fargo. Edited December 4, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[CouchTater]

It's odd to me that Lou and Hank and their people don't secure really fresh crime scenes: diner, the Blumquist house. Why was Hanzee able to go into and investigate so soon after crimes, literally minutes in the Blumquist house case, I think.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

As I've mulled over the question of Hanzee's seemingly super-human abilities (and luck!), I've decided it's just a continuation of the Malvo trope from the first season.  Super-naturality and/or mysticism are meant to be in play.  In a meta sense, the whole tableau of that place is Brigadoon-ish.  The opening title sequence telling us this was a true event is a wink to us that this place and time is not real.  It's completely recognizable, but unreal.

 

I'm right with ya, CouchTater, on the woeful oversight of crime scene preservation.  But, if Hanzee is to fully actualize as Malvo did, there needs to be something extra-dimensional at play.   As we've seen, Lou and Hank are nobody's fools.   They've averted their focus, so as a viewer must I, if I am to more fully see and appreciate the alternate reality being presented.

 

The thing that is so maddening to me, though, is that they go to such brilliant extremes with detail.  Then, we get conveniently sloppy stuff.  

 

Oh well, one thing I did notice and very much like in this ep was that Lou and Hank were seen to approach Ed's house in a professional manner, giving their full attention to the possibility that someone was laying in wait to harm them.  

Edited December 5, 2015 by Lonesome Rhodes

[shapeshifter]

As I've mulled over the question of Hanzee's seemingly super-human abilities (and luck!), I've decided it's just a continuation of the Malvo trope from the first season.  Super-naturality and/or mysticism are meant to be in play.  In a meta sense, the whole tableau of that place is Brigadoon-ish.  The opening title sequence telling us this was a true event is a wink to us that this place and time is not real.  It's completely recognizable, but unreal.

 

I'm right with ya, CouchTater, on the woeful oversight of crime scene preservation.  But, if Hanzee is to fully actualize as Malvo did, there needs to be something extra-dimensional at play.   As we've seen, Lou and Hank are nobody's fools.   They've averted their focus, so as a viewer must I, if I am to more fully see and appreciate the alternate reality being presented.

 

The thing that is so maddening to me, though, is that they go to such brilliant extremes with detail.  Then, we get conveniently sloppy stuff.  

 

Oh well, one thing I did notice and very much like in this ep was that Lou and Hank were seen to approach Ed's house in a professional manner, giving their full attention to the possibility that someone was laying in wait to harm them.  

I love this post.

And now for my apologetics (if I'm using that term correctily in the literary sense): Having lived in a rural area for an extended period of time, I recall there not being many law enforcement personnel, due to a low tax base to support it. This is probably also why the Gherhardt clan has been able to operate with such impunity. 

[Stratego]

I love this post.

And now for my apologetics (if I'm using that term correctily in the literary sense): Having lived in a rural area for an extended period of time, I recall there not being many law enforcement personnel, due to a low tax base to support it. This is probably also why the Gherhardt clan has been able to operate with such impunity. 

There are plenty of locations with large tax bases that permit syndicates to operate with (near) immunity--they bribe people!

[AuntiePam]

There are plenty of locations with large tax bases that permit syndicates to operate with (near) immunity--they bribe people!

 

Yep.  That shit cop -- forgot his name -- Ben? -- wasn't at all interested in following up on the typewriter guy.  And he was uncomfortable at the Gerhardt place.  Might have been because his mother was a friend of the family, but that's just as bad -- letting something go because of a personal connection.  We see it in small towns all the time.

[Eyes High]

And he did it with that signature Jesse Plemmons blinking gaze. He almost has a bovine quality about his face which made it even better.

 

Interesting that you should say that. The leaked script page character description for Ed was that he was a "cow, basically. Which sounds like a judgment, but is simply a classification of his place in the animal kingdom" or something to that effect.

 

I think Jesse Plemons has been really good as Ed. He's held his own in a show full of excellent performances.

 

On another note, the person who plays Hallucination Guru Dude is Mackenzie Gray, a Canadian actor who (not surprisingly, given his silky-smooth voice) does a lot of voice work. His character is listed as "Albert" in the Loplop description. If you look him up on Google Images, he does appear to bear a resemblance to Jeffrey Donovan (Dodd).

Edited December 6, 2015 by Eyes High

[Juliegirlj]

Hanzee seems to hold Floyd in high regards- he is always very polite when speaking to her, calling her Ma'am. Perhaps he will show some loyalty to the Gerhardt's that have treated him ( and possibly his mother) with kindness? Or, I am reading it all wrong, and his politeness is thinly veiled contempt with years and years of bitterness he has repressed. I have to think we haven't seen the end of Charlie Gerhardt and possibly Simone as well, if Bear allowed her to live. Possible prequel for season 3? Would love an Ed and Peggy on the lamb spin off!!

[Starchild]

That is the difference between Ed and Peggy.  Ed wants it all just to stop so he can go back to his simple life.  I have the impression that Peggy has never been happier.  She is enjoying the adventure.  I don't think she would go back even if she could.    I don't think Peggy is a bad person per se  I think she was a deeply unhappy one who used a moments sudden decision to bring about the happiness and life she has always wanted.  Damn the consequences.  

Anyone else thinking that Peggy will kill Ed when he tries to drag her back in to reality? She won't die though, she'll be arrested.

[candall]

Good thread, lots of shrewd observations.  (I too had wondered why Hanzee shot them both in the knee and left them.   Derrr.)

 

I do think I know why Dodd didn't kill Peggy right away, though.  He'd probably spent hours visualizing the lengthy retribution he planned for her; he's the kind of man who would repay humiliation with same, times ten.  But fortunately, as someone noted above, Dodd just couldn't wrap his misogynist brain around Peggy being the more deadly threat.

 

Aside from the good writing in the Dodd/Peggy scenes and the skill of both actors, how many things are as truly satisfying as watching a sadistic abusive asshole being brought soundly to heel by a woman he underestimated?

[cpcathy]

Dodd had said when he got a hold of Peggy, he was going to make her bleed. So sexist and sadistic!

[John Potts]

This did seem to be more than usually stuffed with film references - we had the incompetent kidnapper failing to call in a ransom note from A Life Less Ordinary, a showdown between a badass and a shopkeeper from No Country for Old Men, the ultimately successful "Chick turns on gangster trying to kill her" from True Romance plus the old trope of the unstoppable badass from any number of places (Terminator, Point Blank, Indiana Jones....)

 

I can't see Hanzee changing sides to the Corporates, because you don't endear yourself to anyone by proving you're unreliable. Even if they'd approached him first and offered him $$$ to take out his bosses you'd be a fool to trust a guy whose loyalties you yourself had bought. I think he just wants out - hence the "respectable" haircut he wanted. I can't imagine he scalped Constance because it would be very hard to keep quiet (I would have thought) when simply killing her could be done pretty quietly and he doesn't strike me as particularly cruel (he seemed to be walking away from the bar without incident until the three racists started bugging him - and then he got violent).

 

ElectricBoogaloo As extreme as it was, part of me loved that Peggy was going to stab some good manners into him.

 

Totally! I will never understand why the "caged villain" insists on threatening his captors with terrible revenge if he gets free. He was practically begging them to kill him. Just STFU and wait for them to drop their guard (which they did in the end), stupid!

 

But I loved Peggy for apologising for feeding Dodd beans when she remembered that he'd said no. And on that subject:

 

ElectricBoogaloo  Mr. EB hates beans so this scene made him say, "She's torturing him!"

 

....but he was OK with her going all "Stabby Stabby" on him?

 

 

islandgal140 Hanzee and the chatty shopkeeps conversation about a fat red head, where the shopkeep assumed he was talking about a woman, was too funny to me.

Even more when he said "No, I'm looking for a redheaded guy" and his response was "Well, we don't really get a lot of that type around here..."

[Sparger Springs]

I'm no closer to understanding why Hanzee was so loyal to Dodd in particular to the point of adhering to a dangerous lie, even when Bear offered him an out, especially now that we know that Hanzee deeply resented the way Dodd treated him. Why was he so loyal to Dodd for so long and only now snapped? I'm sure it wasn't the first time Dodd called Hanzee a half-breed or a mongrel. Wouldn't Hanzee have gotten tired of Dodd's bullshit ages ago?

As for Peggy, the law certainly wouldn't absolve her for failing to call for medical assistance for Rye or contacting the police. I do think that she believed that Rye was dead and that's why she "left him to die," although again the law would not absolve her for just assuming that without checking for a pulse. I'm not sure if the premiere bears out this opinion, though.

Thought experiment: what would have happened to Peggy if she had done the right thing and immediately called the hospital and police when she hit Rye? What would the criminal consequences of that be? More importantly, do you think the Gerhardts still would have gone after her if she'd been straightforward from the first?

Nothing, it wasn't her fault. Rye ran in the road. It was his fault. She would've been called a hero after the discovery of the murders and robbery at the Waffle Hut.  The Gerharts wouldn't have sought revenge for the death of their stupid youngest son.

[Desperately Random]

Nothing, it wasn't her fault. Rye ran in the road. It was his fault. She would've been called a hero after the discovery of the murders and robbery at the Waffle Hut.  The Gerharts wouldn't have sought revenge for the death of their stupid youngest son.

I've thought the same about how this all started.I agree that Peggy would have come out of this a hero if she had done the right thing and a lot of people (including her husband) would still be alive. After hitting Rye, she should have gone to the restaurant to call for help. Of course, she would have found all those bodies but then the police would have been called out there. Rye would have been taken to the hospital and arrested for the murders. Instead, Peggy thinks only of herself and drives home where she continues to make selfish choices that result in many, many deaths. She has only herself to blame for all that has happened to her.

[lucindabelle]

Anyone else think Hanzee would have killed Ed and Peggy after he got the haircut? He did have a gun on them before that, and he doesn't leave witnesses.

[AuntiePam]

I don't think he wanted them dead, but he couldn't just let them go.  The Gerhardts might find them, and then they'd know that Hanzee shot Dodd.  So yeah, he'd kill 'em. 

[lucindabelle]

And Peggy and Ed were the only ones who knew what he looked like before and after.

[EDTV]

didnt like the ending.

 

Dodd was tied up pretty good, hands, chest, feet, he had all night to escape and couldn't.... yet she somehow misses him escaping right next to her while she watches a movie?

 

Then Dodd doesnt kill her?

 

Clerk spills the beans on Ed and was scared even though he had about 10 guns behind him?

 

Hanzee can't cut his own hair? He needs it "professional" and trusts this woman not to stab him and turns his back to her? Makes ZERO sense. and why didn't Hanzee kill Ed? isn't that who he's been chasing this whole time? But now he doesn't want to kill him anymore?

 

Just didn't make sense at all sorry.

[AuntiePam]

didnt like the ending.

Dodd was tied up pretty good, hands, chest, feet, he had all night to escape and couldn't.... yet she somehow misses him escaping right next to her while she watches a movie?

He had to wait until Ed was gone. Easier to get away from one person than two.

Then Dodd doesnt kill her?

He didn't know how much time he had until Ed came back with the car. He had to figure out a way to kill Ed, so he'd have a car.

Clerk spills the beans on Ed and was scared even though he had about 10 guns behind him?

We don't know that any of those guns were loaded.

Hanzee can't cut his own hair? He needs it "professional" and trusts this woman not to stab him and turns his back to her? Makes ZERO sense. and why didn't Hanzee kill Ed? isn't that who he's been chasing this whole time? But now he doesn't want to kill him anymore?

The straw that broke this camel's back was Dodd calling him a half-breed and a mongrel. He didn't know until then that he wanted to change his life. That long hair made him too identifiable. He shot at Ed but he was out of bullets. Edited December 31, 2015 by Dougal
Formatting.

[EDTV]

Ed had been gone several times though already. But again, just how did he manage to escape being tied up so well and how exactly did he do it so quietly that Peggy wouldn't even notice?

 

He could have killed Peggy in 1 minute, why leave her alive while he waits? He hardly even injured her, and leaves her there nexy to a knife so that she can get back up?

 

I understand WHY Hanzee wanted a haircut, and I can even understand why he killed Dodd... but he hands over a sharp pair of scissors to someone who wants to kill him?...lol? Hanzee's character is smarter than that. He only shot at Ed AFTER the cops came and Peg tried to stab him. Why not kill him right away?

 

I understand this show isn't heavy on the realism, but the ending just got a little too silly and convenient. These are smart gangsters who kill with precision, yet all of a sudden they are doing things that just made ZERO sense.

[AuntiePam]

Ed had been gone several times though already. But again, just how did he manage to escape being tied up so well and how exactly did he do it so quietly that Peggy wouldn't even notice?

It may have taken him all night to wiggle around and get those ropes loosened up. Peggy was enthralled by the movie.

He could have killed Peggy in 1 minute, why leave her alive while he waits? He hardly even injured her, and leaves her there nexy to a knife so that she can get back up?

He said he was going to make her bleed. She had zapped him with the cattle prod, stabbed him, and fed him beans. He had bigger plans for her. He may not have noticed the knife.

I understand WHY Hanzee wanted a haircut, and I can even understand why he killed Dodd... but he hands over a sharp pair of scissors to someone who wants to kill him?...lol? Hanzee's character is smarter than that. He only shot at Ed AFTER the cops came and Peg tried to stab him. Why not kill him right away?

Hanzee didn't have any reason to think Peggy or Ed would want to kill him. And why would they want to? They were all on the run.

[Dev F]

So I finally reached this episode in my leisurely rewatch of season 2, and I have to say, I think it's my least favorite episode of the season. I mean, it's got some great moments, including Peggy's fascination with Operation Eagle's Nest, which becomes important to understanding her character in the episodes to come. But it's in this episode that the straightforward narrative logic powering the main storyline starts to break down, and in the scramble to hold everything together, things that should be propelled by the characters and their choices end up being motivated purely by narrative fiat.

 

The main plot kludge is how Peggy and Ed end up in the vicinity of Sioux Falls for the big impending massacre. The previous episodes set up a motivation for this turn of events that is nicely grounded in character: Peggy is bound and determined to attend a Lifespring seminar in Sioux Falls, and in her heedless desire to self-actualize, she spends most of the season barrelling toward this horror she has no idea is coming. But by this episode, the story has gotten ahead of that motivation. On the one hand, Peggy decides that she just needs to be the person she wants to be rather than chasing after it, so she no longer has a burning need to attend the seminar. And on the other, the threat to her and Ed's lives becomes so urgent that she would have to be doubly wackadoo to make an appearance at Lifespring, especially since her need for it has diminished.

 

The result is that Lou and Peggy no longer have a compelling reason to go to Sioux Falls, so the episode completely drops their original motivation. They end up in South Dakota not because Peggy wants to head to Lifespring despite it all, but because Ed's uncle happens to have a cabin in a city about a half hour past Sioux Falls. It's a complete coincidence that they ended up nearby. What's more, it's a coincidence that does not even reflect on either character in an interesting way, because they're just motivated by the threats against their life to find a place of refuge, and that place happens to be in Canistota, South Dakota. It's a total nothingburger of a story point.

 

And more kludgery is required to tie back into the original Sioux Falls connection, as Hanzie runs down the Lifespring lead and finds Constance, which only leads him to the Blumquists because Peggy decides to call Constance because she's bored. That's the extent of her motivation. There's no sense that Peggy is being driven to contact her friend by the same burning need that was propelling her toward Lifespring in the first place; she just can't find anything to watch on television, so she gives Constance a call to babble vaguely about her new clarity and apologize for missing the seminar. Again, it's just empty incident, arbitrary behavior that happens only because it's necessary to move the plot along.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Dev F

[hincandenza]

On 12/6/2015 at 2:55 PM, Eyes High said:

On another note, the person who plays Hallucination Guru Dude is Mackenzie Gray, a Canadian actor who (not surprisingly, given his silky-smooth voice) does a lot of voice work. His character is listed as "Albert" in the Loplop description. If you look him up on Google Images, he does appear to bear a resemblance to Jeffrey Donovan (Dodd).

Posting from the future (the second season finally came out on Hulu a few days ago, and I just finished it last night): Mackenzie Gray, who I thought I recognized from that short scene in the basement, has the role as a major villain in another Noah Hawley show that has come out in early 2017 on FX called "Legion" (and where I recognized him from).  Now that I think of it, Jean Smart has a major supporting role as well...

In any case, I highly recommend it for fans of Fargo, as it's a total mindfuck of a show but still exceptionally well done; at this point, FX is presumably and smartly just giving Noah Hawley whatever latitude he wants.