S02.E07: 207

[Ellaria]

Trying to clarify a few things:

• Helen and Gottlief paid Oscar $100,000 for the video from the security camera (?) that showed Scotty and Alison having a "heated" discussion.
• Oscar also happened to overhear this heated discussion which included Scotty making the "that's our baby" comment.
• This discussion happened at Cole's wedding? So a few months after the events that we saw in last night's episode?
• Presumably, sometime after this discussion, Scotty is killed in a hit and run.

 

With that in mind, Noah's entire defense rests on not just the tape itself but what Oscar overheard. The tape in and of itself proves little. Scotty and Alison could have been arguing about the choice of entrees at the wedding reception. All of this strikes me as a little too convenient, especially because we are relying on Oscar  - a character with a possible desire for vengeance - for the information.

 

Oscar's information would seem to implicate Alison as the killer. If so, then Noah is covering for her. I'm not convinced that this evidence entirely eliminates Noah as the killer. Suppose that Alison confessed to Noah after the conversation with Scotty. Isn't it possible that Noah may have killed Scotty to keep him quiet, particularly if Scotty attempted to blackmail Alison?

[izabella]

This episode we find out she did sell it and is likely how she and Noah can afford the very, very fancy New York apartment they're currently living in.

 

 

In this episode, Allison's grandmother's house is still in escrow, so the sale was not yet completed.  She didn't have any money yet from the house, so she couldn't have contributed anything to that fancy apartment.  What she does with the money afterward is anyone's guess, but she told her mom she didn't want to be a freeloader, so maybe she used some of it to pay Noah, but that's yet to be seen.

[HumblePi]

Jonathan Franzen wouldn't be spending two hours on Thanksgiving night with the author of a summer beach read.  That and comments made at the party made it clear to me that this book is supposed to be a literary success.

 

A woman at the publishers cocktail party drew some similarities between Noah's book and the best selling novel Endless Love.

[heatherchandler]

I just saw something on the places of Andy Cohen, Cameron Diaz & Seth Myers -- all of which looked like tiny dumps compared to this sumptuous place.  

 

Ooohh I love stuff like that - what did you watch??

[Otherkate]

 

 

I forgot to say before but my heart hurt for Whitney when she said she wasn't important enough to be in her dad's novel. And for Cole, when he told us about his dad killing himself. Sigh. I would love to see a Whitney POV someday...heh, I bet that'd be hilarious and fantastic. Whitney and Oscar for the two halves! 

 

 

 

OMG, my kingdom for an episode of Whitney and Oscar POVs. Please!

[RedInk]

The scenes occurring in the present are real-time, correct? So we don't have any reason to believe that Noah thinks paternity is in question? This is just unclear to me; I don't have any theories. Although I do think that Allison's POV shows that she doesn't think Noah wants to be a father again (whether or not that's true) and that she's pretty desperate to hold onto this life she's chosen with him. So far, she benefits the most from Scotty's death.

This is a stupid nitpick, but I've had babies in the last few years, and I hear the heartbeat at every visit, starting way before it's audible by stethoscope. She's just hearing it? And how is she 4 months along and that big? Again, I'm being picky, but it was a weird disconnect.

Edited November 16, 2015 by RedInk

[tvviewer]

This is a stupid nitpick, but I've had babies in the last few years, and I hear the heartbeat at every visit, starting way before it's audible by stethoscope. She's just hearing it? And how is she 4 months along and that big? Again, I'm being picky, but it was a weird disconnect.

Those were my exact thoughts too.

[Blakeston]

I get the impression we're supposed to think that Noah's book, as bad as the excerpts have been, is genuinely seen as an acclaimed literary work. It certainly wouldn't be the first time screenwriters asked us to believe that some terrible prose is great.

If we're supposed to think the book is just a beach read, the writers made a big misstep with the Franzen stuff.

So based on Whitney's "you pulled a gun on me." Talk, I'm kind of leaning towards Alison's version of the story which was Cole pulling the gun on Noah because of what they did and not Noah's version. I think that scene shows Alison's version was the truth and Noah's version was not.

From what we've seen, Noah, Helen and Whitney all recall Cole threatening Helen and Whitney with the gun. And even in Cole's perspective, when he was called on it by Whitney, he didn't flat-out deny it - he could only say that he didn't think he did that.

We can't be sure either way, but I think it's more likely than not that he threatened Noah's family.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Blakeston

[lschmeiser]

I had figured that Alison was so big because this is baby #2 so she's showing earlier (a lot of women do show earlier and bigger with subsequent babies) but then I did the math, realized that she's got at least 21 weeks left to an April due date, and thought ... what woman shows like that at 19 weeks?

I reiterate my contention that Alison needs a posse of girlfriends. Having one friend you haven't seen in nearly a year and an ex-sister-in-law are not good. She needs a crew of women who can call her out on her ongoing series, Bad Decision Theater.

Then again, if Alison had a crew of good friends, maybe she wouldn't have been so mired in helpess grief and self-loathing back in S1.

This show is pretty much an argument for why, even if you have a romantic partner who rocks your world, you really need good friends. Not family, but good friends. Everyone whose POV we see on this show is so very alone.

[Palomar]

The scenes occurring in the present are real-time, correct? So we don't have any reason to believe that Noah thinks paternity is in question?

 

And when the subject of Montauk comes up, Alison lies about not having been there for a very long time.  If she ever confessed to Noah he would have at least have a pained look on his face with that question (you would think).

[Bebecat]

Noah walks out of his family's building to his car, parked right there at the curb, yeah right. That was pretty unrealistic to me for any part of NY...or any big city lol.

[JenE4]

I'm confused. Last week's episode while Martin was in the hospital, Helen says let's do mediation. Then Noah goes to Allison's 6 weeks (or 5 or 4.5 if you subtract the hospital time), and says it's finally over, we can be together, let's go to our new apartment, etc. So I thought that meant they were divorced, but now months later Noah and Helen are still married?! Did I miss something? Or maybe they only mediated enough to say you can live with your paramour, but when Helen found out Alison was pregnant, all bets are off?

I also didn't understand the full blown cocktail party at 9 am--parade time. Ok, I could understand a brunch with mimosas and bloody Mary's, but they had full-on wine and cocktails and passed hors d'oeuvres. But maybe a pregnant woman who can't drink and feels out of place would just remember it being more hoity toity than it was.

I also took "our baby" as the (Cole) Lockhart baby, just like "our house" and "our money," which was Alison's and a percentage to Cole. Scotty saw that they slept together and did the math. But why didn't Cole do the math? Or, as someone said above, perhaps that explained that very long and contemplative look he gave in court. Maybe they should have had him counting on his fingers, lol, but, really, that would have been the FIRST time he thought of that? Or we're supposed to believe Scotty wasn't badgering him to go get their baby and the child support that comes with it?! I mean I suppose this episode showed that he becomes estranged from his family, but apparently his family still came to his wedding? If they didn't, wouldn't Cole be a suspect? I don't know whether I missed something or they just weren't clear on this yet.

[Constantinople]

The brothers kept the summer people high on cocaine, a glamorous drug for the glamorous set.

 

They disdained their clientele as if they were somehow above them, keepers of old Montauk, knights of a forgotten Round Table, but they were delusional.

 

There was no nobility in their blood. These common boys were and always would be, like their murderous grandfather, bootleggers.

 

In the immortal words of Moon Unit Zappa, "Gag me with a spoon"

[Lemons]

They were married. If a man has greater wealth than his wife, is she also a moocher?

 

If she married him for his wealth, she is a moocher.  Noah very well could have married Allison for "her" money making him a moocher.

[GeminiDancer]

 

So I thought that meant they were divorced, but now months later Noah and Helen are still married?! Did I miss something? Or maybe they only mediated enough to say you can live with your paramour, but when Helen found out Alison was pregnant, all bets are off?

I was a little confused by that as well. I'm assuming that they're finalizing details. I think we'll know more next week with Helen's perspective. Alison and Cole, however, are still married and neither seem to be rushing to file divorce papers.

[truthaboutluv]

I also took "our baby" as the (Cole) Lockhart baby, just like "our house" and "our money," which was Alison's and a percentage to Cole. Scotty saw that they slept together and did the math. But why didn't Cole do the math? Or, as someone said above, perhaps that explained that very long and contemplative look he gave in court. Maybe they should have had him counting on his fingers, lol, but, really, that would have been the FIRST time he thought of that? Or we're supposed to believe Scotty wasn't badgering him to go get their baby and the child support that comes with it?! I mean I suppose this episode showed that he becomes estranged from his family, but apparently his family still came to his wedding? If they didn't, wouldn't Cole be a suspect? I don't know whether I missed something or they just weren't clear on this yet.

 

 

Possibly fanwanking on my part but my guess is Cole had no idea Alison was pregnant because apparently even while still legally married, they were off doing their own thing. And if he didn't know, Scotty and the rest of the family who also have zero contact with Alison, likely didn't know either (remember Scotty just like Cole knew nothing of the book until Oscar told them). Then Cole and Alison finally legally get divorced, some months later perhaps he and Luisa are getting married and he invites Alison and Noah. Maybe in the time they are in Montauk for the wedding, talk of her and Noah's newborn baby eventually comes up.

 

Scotty gets wind of it, maybe asks a few questions or two and realizes that the child could possibly be Cole's since he remembers seeing them together. Of course he only cares about this because he's sure Alison is living in luxury and wealth with Noah and thinks somehow her having Cole's kid will mean he will be owed some of that wealth which means Scotty gets some of it (yes nevermind that Cole keeps ignoring this assumption of Scotty's). So he confronts her about it but nothing ever comes of it because he gets run down that same night. So it's likely he never even got to tell Cole about his suspicions. 

 

Months later, Cole who yes knows Alison and Noah have a child but likely is never even considering the possibility that he could be the father, meets said baby for the first time and gets to really see her. And while sitting in the courtroom watching Alison trying to calm the baby down, a light bulb goes off for him. Maybe it's not just the timeline of the baby's birth but something in her that is reminiscent of Gabriel and of Cole himself that hits him and sends him down that path. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[blixie]

 

I forgot to add in my original comment that this could all be a red herring and at the end of the day the kid really is Noah's. But the fact is there was a legitimate question of paternity which I'm pretty sure Alison never let Noah or Cole know about and doubt she actually ever did a paternity test. But when it's all said and done, I can see the writers making the child Noah's after all. However the damage would already be done with regards to Alison's lies by omission.

 

It feels as red a herring as can be, but even IF Scotty was wrong about the child's paternity, the blackmail threat to Allison vis a vis Noah is that she slept with Cole. Of course we don't know that Noah doesn't know that, because the time jump was pretty significant. It certainly doesn't seem like he knows.

 

Another episode, another example of Noah being the biggest asshole on TV. I will give him a little break in that this more so then even usual seemed to be colored by Allison's insecurities around her situation, so I believe he was no where near as douchey while listening to the baby, and that Eden/Noah weren't as thick as thieves as they seemed. Allison is pregnant,possibly by her estranged husband, while she's with the man she left him for, the man who wrote a book where he murdered her stand in, there was just so much projection going on there.  I just wish DW were able to sell the genuine moments of joy/connection better, I never notices this constant scowl while he was on The Wire, though it fit better there than it does here. I think Noah and Earth 2 Dr. Wells should be locked in a room togehter unti they learn how not to be dicks. 

 

I'm still in the Whitney killed Scotty boat, though this episode really wanted me to think it was Cole and/or Allison. As good as Cole was with his ex's lover's obnoxious bint of daughter, he definitely fed into her obsession with Scotty, saying it's "love" and that some one doesn't have to love you back, as IF Scotty loving her back would then make it okay or possible, she didn't seem less fixated on Scotty at all.

 

Wow were those were two HORRIBLE Thanksgivings, it's the best holiday people don't be fucking it up like that, and while I know they established Oscar was the source of all the real dirt on the Lockhart family's evil curse, for a minute I thought the secret between Scotty/Cherry was they had sold out the family history to Noah somehow. Since I actually like Cole I hope this is the last of his dark turns, and he's able to move forward with Luisa w/o the Allison/Gabriel baggage weighing him down.

[right]

I'll admit I took the bait and initially thought Allison slept with Scotty, (she's slept with pretty much everyone else!).  Now reading others ideas it makes more sense that Scotty put 2 and 2 together and realized the night he went to confront Cole might be the night Allison conceived.  The last scene between them would appear to be a blackmail demand by Scotty.  Either Allison pays up, or Scotty tells Noah the baby might be Coles.  Sounds like a good reason for Allison to kill Scotty to me.  But, of course that would be too easy.  I'm sure there will be a few more curve balls before this thing is over. 

 

Totally agree Feona Apples theme song sucks.

[JenE4]

Possibly fanwanking on my part but my guess is Cole had no idea Alison was married because apparently even while still legally married, they were off doing their own thing. And if he didn't know, Scotty and the rest of the family who also have zero contact with Alison, likely didn't know either (remember Scotty just like Cole knew nothing of the book until Oscar told them). Then Cole and Alison finally legally get divorced, some months later perhaps he and Luisa are getting married and he invites Alison and Noah. Maybe in the time they are in Montauk for the wedding, talk of her and Noah's newborn baby eventually comes up.

I could have believed that as a possibility if not for the whole "Page Six" thing blowing up that day. Ok, so the Lockharts are finding out that Noah's book is about their family that day, and presumably any person is going to google details and the very first thing that would come up is Allison's pregnancy. Even the PR person was saying to make the interviews about that--and even if Noah refuses to answer the question, that's going to be the first thing interviewers ask about in his big press tour he's going on. Plus, they live in the town where it all went down, so people will be talking. Case in point, Oscar will be all over that!! i can't imagine there's any conceivable way that the Lockharts don't know about the pregnancy by the time Thanksgiving weekend is over.

[DarkRaichu]

1. Did I call the baby was Allison and Cole's or what ??? j/k ;)

 

2. If the book really depicted the situation as Allison said, I could see how the detective believed Noah was the killer.  Afterall, Noah's version of the story told to the detective matched the book (per Allison's quotes).  The book was either fiction or non-fiction.

 

3. I am 75% sure Noah was sleeping with his assistant and the reason why they were late had nothing to do with that client/author/whoever they met after the party.  This would be in line with Noah's selfish needs

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Give Thanks You're Not Dining With Noah On The Affair
The newly assembled Noah/Alison household and the Lockhart clan compete to see who can have the most awkward Thanksgiving. The winner? You, dear viewer.

[truthaboutluv]

As good as Cole was with his ex's lover's obnoxious bint of daughter, he definitely fed into her obsession with Scotty, saying it's "love" and that some one doesn't have to love you back, as IF Scotty loving her back would then make it okay or possible, she didn't seem less fixated on Scotty at all.

 

 

I didn't see how he fed her obsession. He told her she needed to stop coming after Scotty and when she said Scotty loved her, Cole told her as brutally honest as possible that no, Scotty doesn't. Yes, he then softened it by adding that things don't work that way, that just because you love someone doesn't mean they'll love you. But at the end of the day the point was the same - that Scotty does not and is not in love with Witney. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

These days unfortunately many parts of Brooklyn are just as expensive as Manhattan (you can thank hipsters and gentrification for that. Feh).

 

The most expensive places in Brooklyn have reached Manhattan prices.  But a look at Michelle Williams' & Keri Russell's beautiful large homes (and of course Helen's too) will confirm you get much more for your dollar in Brooklyn.  And the high-end of Manhattan real estate is like nowhere else in the world.  Noah's & Alison's place would absolutely be in that category.  

 

Look, I get it.  The writers wanted to show Noah's career has taken off.  But this place would be way out of their reach.  The NY Post just showed places Chloe Sevigny & Julia Roberts sold -- tiny dumps compared to this joint.  You don't get a monstrous-sized apartment in Manhattan unless you're a billionaire.  And that's about it.  So Noah's a billionaire now?  That's what we're supposed to believe?

 

My guess is (and it's a very conservative one & probably way less) a place like this (4 bedrooms?) in a luxury building in Manhattan could go for 20 to 50 thou a month or cost at least 20 to 25 mil easily.  Noah could afford this from selling one book & Alison selling her teensy cottage?  Um, no.  Guess the writers wanted to impress viewers (and make a statement) with a gorg Manhattan place & they assumed viewers wouldn't be aware of the crazy prices of high-end Manhattan real estate.

 

Hey, I'm not bothered by this on one hand cuz I love real estate porn.  And let's face it, most of us are never gonna be in a place like this, let alone see it, unless you're a billionaire or know one.  But in terms of believability for the show, it didn't work.

Edited November 16, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[iggysaurus]

Noah did live in the house paid for by Helen's money.  I think it comes naturally to him to mooch off of women.

They were married. If a man has greater wealth than his wife, is she also a moocher?

If she married him for his wealth, she is a moocher. Noah very well could have married Allison for "her" money making him a moocher.

 

 

As much as we all don't like Noah, I don't think there's any evidence that he got together with either Helen or Alison for their money.  He and Helen seemed to genuinely love each other at the time that they got married.  The fact that she (via her family) had tons of money and he didn't seems like it was more a sore spot to him than anything else, so I don't think it makes him an intentional moocher. 

 

Btw, I get a bit tired of the theme song from hearing it over and over, but I love Fiona Apple and I definitely don't think it "sucks." 

[Constantinople]

Nice of Noah to thank Cole for dropping Whitney off at Noah's after driving her all the way from Montauk.

[RedheadZombie]

I will miss the beach house.

 

I'm going to miss Montauk.  I love NYC, but I don't think we're getting a true taste of the city, while we did get the true feel of Montauk.

 

OK, so have the writers decided to do a total turn-around for Athena -- or is it my imagination?  I thought she was a total ditz last season.  And pretty much anything/everything she said was white noise & babble not worth listening to.  And yet here she is this season, sharp as a tack, with 100% on-target observations.  What up, show?

 

I think the difference is in how Alison now perceives her. Athena did abandon her, and it was good to see Athena acknowledge her uselessness as a mother.  It showed more self-awareness than I thought she was capable of.

 

Didn't she cheat first, if sleeping with ex hubby counts? It goes both ways. Eden is annoying, even Max was ticked off, no need for any nefariousness in order to hate that one. But Noah's fidelity has to become an issue, especially if he becomes notorious in the media. I understood his hesitancy regarding the baby, they never resolved that question before she announced that she was pregnant. But the concern has to be that stardom gets into his head, erasing any desire to start another family. He's now hanging out with these people that Alison can't identify with, and they view her as nothing but a scandalous "muse". Noah's lack of success was an issue in his first marriage, it'll be interesting to see how his success is an issue in his second.

 

I'd take that explanation over that she slept with Scotty any day. At first I thought likely he was blackmailing her but then I re-watched and saw that the video takes place at Lockhart's Lobster Roll, meaning Cole already bought the place. So what was Scotty's angle? The Lockhart curse? In any case I think this week strengthens my 'Alison is guilty' thesis. Does Helen know about the kid being a Lockhart? Does Noah?

 

I'm probably the only one but I love the Whitney character. She's a hell-raiser, either screaming or shouting at someone 90% of the time. But the remaining time she reveals a surprising side: last week by being nice after her brother gave them all a scare, and this week revealing some of the hurt driving her, surprisingly to Cole. Which was a good call cause in one little sentence Cole probably healed the rift between father and daughter, that's why she chose his place for Thanksgiving. 

 

Max was a total asshole.  Basically implying that Helen was trying to get Noah's attention.  If he's around enough, he could be sowing the seeds of Alison's insecurity (not that she needs much help in that area).

 

Regarding the baby, I also think Alison may be projecting her insecurities onto Noah.

 

I can't agree on Whitney - I despise that shrieking harpy.  The way she reacted to Cole trying to restrain her reminded me of how she lunged at Alison and acted so heartbroken that Noah held her back.  She seems to think she can physically assault people as she desires - a true product of her grandparents, and reinforcing she's still the bully of season one.    I feared for a few minutes that she would end up accusing Cole of raping her.  I don't think she was hurt that she wasn't in the book, I just think she was shocked that the great powerful Whitney wasn't the main heroine.  Just a horrid girl, in my opinion, and I hope she's the killer.

 

And am I the only one who believes Cole would never hire Oscar to work for him?  As if.

 

I agree re: Athena - I've always seen her as perceptive and observant but not self-aware. She picked up on Alison and Noah's affair immediately, and she had some astute things to say about the Lockharts last season.

 

And Athena seemed so petty and jealous when attacking that tight-nit warm and loving Lockhart family.  Funny to see the Lockharts are so toxic that Cole can hardly stand them anymore.  I know we're supposed to be on Cole's side at all times, but skipping the memorial of his stillborn niece/nephew ......  Why is he punishing his siblings for Cherry's loss of the farm?  As much as I dislike most of his family, he was clearly their leader and they seem to be reeling without him.

 

In real life, Alison wouldn't have to split the house money with Cole. The house in Montauk would be considered Alison's property, not joint property. She's the one who inherited it, so even if she received it during the marriage, it would be hers.

 

Yes, I'm confused why Helen's house is strictly hers, yet Alison's has to be split with Cole. 

 

If she married him for his wealth, she is a moocher.  Noah very well could have married Allison for "her" money making him a moocher.

 

I think society, in general, still needs to catch up with modern times.  Both wives in this story have the greater wealth, and it came from inheritance.  Yet Noah's a pig for even thinking of Helen's money, while poor old Cole deserves at least half of Alison's money.  Noah's a moocher for living in his wife's house, while Cole lived in Alison's, and apparently still did while hooking up with Luisa.  I wonder how Noah and Helen would be perceived if the roles were reversed.  Noah had a trust that paid for the marital home, and his parents paid for the children's schooling.  He has a vanity store that does nothing but lose money, while Helen works full time during the school year, and tries to write her second book over the summers.  Is Helen the moocher?  It interests me, because I really have to think on this because I seem to be a little old-fashioned myself.

[RedInk]

I wonder how Noah and Helen would be perceived if the roles were reversed.  Noah had a trust that paid for the marital home, and his parents paid for the children's schooling.  He has a vanity store that does nothing but lose money, while Helen works full time during the school year, and tries to write her second book over the summers.  Is Helen the moocher?  It interests me, because I really have to think on this because I seem to be a little old-fashioned myself.

You raise a good point, but I think Noah's an ass for wanting Helen's money because he is the one who ended their marriage. It wasn't an amicable split, and it's salt in the wound for Helen. That's not to say he doesn't have a legitimate claim...I don't know anything about laws in NY, so the property issue never stood out to me. In my state, a home paid for by a trust would be untouchable, while property gained during a marriage would be evenly split, even if it were inherited. 

[Skeeter22]

Cole probably gets a pass because he hasn't expressed any interest in Alison's money. She was looking to get a payday last season from the ranch, wasn't she? Noah may not like his in-laws, but nothing he's done suggests he'd be happy without the money.

I won't be shocked if Noah can't afford a lawyer in the future because he and Alison have been living well beyond their means. It's the only way to explain that apartment, even if you believe Noah's book was a huge financial success. As far as Noah's book being "literary", just look at some excerpts from Franzen's latest. They aren't really a far cry from each other. Sometimes it's more about the pedigree than the content.

[truthaboutluv]

As far as I know Cole has never expressed an expectation of Alison's house or her money from the house. Again, Alison gave Cole the house in the season finale and he turned it down. Then after she left he was sleeping in a trailer near the house. Scotty is the only one who seems to believe Cole is obligated to half of whatever Alison could get for the house and so kept pushing Cole to push her to sell. But Cole has pretty much been removed from anything to do with Alison's house. Not for the record, do I agree that Noah was any moocher on Helen or Alison as well. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[JenE4]

I won't be shocked if Noah can't afford a lawyer in the future because he and Alison have been living well beyond their means. It's the only way to explain that apartment, even if you believe Noah's book was a huge financial success. As far as Noah's book being "literary", just look at some excerpts from Franzen's latest. They aren't really a far cry from each other. Sometimes it's more about the pedigree than the content.

I agree. They made it very clear that they can only afford this place with Alison chipping in the profit of selling her home. If they're renting, that money is just gone. I hope for Allison's sake they did buy it. But, then again, I can't see how two people could get a joint mortgage with other people (aside from a business partnership) but not their spouses. If they purchase while married, that becomes community property of their spouses that would be taken into account for the divorce. I suppose you could argue if it's equitable with the brownstone that Noah and Helen could each keep their home, and maybe Alison is giving half of her house sale to Cole and the other half to Noah for this home. They're making this risky venture very clear--Alison is now going to be financially stuck with Noah. Granted, IRL, people leave marriages without a penny and work to get back on their feet, but this seems to be a majorly telegraphed plot point that Alison HAD a financial cushion and a means to take care of herself but now she'll feel even more so that she'll have nowhere to go with the baby and she'll be more stuck with Noah than she was with Cole.

[Bebecat]

I agree that Whitney has serious issues and is a bully. Why does she think she can physically have a go at anyone who displeases her? She was a school bully too. I also thought she was going to cry rape when Cole grabbed her.

And she was a spolied bully before her parents split, so not an excuse Imo.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Bebecat

[iggysaurus]

I think Noah's an ass for wanting Helen's money because he is the one who ended their marriage. It wasn't an amicable split, and it's salt in the wound for Helen.

 

Is Noah trying to get Helen's money? I thought all he was asking for in the divorce was shared custody. We were talking about whether Noah was a moocher during the marriage for living in a house paid for by his wife's inheritance.

[Margherita Erdman]

I took some creative writing in college and still fool sround with it from time to time, but I have often thought I could never publish (not only because I may not be good enough) because I actually care about what my friend and family may feel about the things I would have to say. I think alot of writers do pull from their real lives and then just kind of riff off that, but I remember worrying, will my mom know that I'm writing about her but not realize that it's not REALLY 100% about her?

So it's interesting to see Noah, using the people in his life as fodder and then trying to weasel out of that. If he really cared more about them, he wouldn't publish it to begin with. I think he's pretending to care about his family. I think he's pretty much a narcissist. Do we think all published writers are egomaniacs to a degree?

William Faulkner is supposed to have told his daughter once, when she asked him to get sober and pay more attention to his family, that "no one cares about Shakespeare's daughter"

Lisa & Philip — "exquisitely tacky" is just the right way to describe that truly gross, sterile apartment, aside from the fantasy that Noah & Allison could afford something like that, which has been well covered by other posters. Even a hedge fund king like Max couldn't swing that, I don't think — that seems like the kind of generic apt in the luxury high-rise bldgs that are being built for overseas billionaires & corporations to buy so they'll have somewhere to stay for the few days or weeks a year they are in NYC.

Also find it hilarious that as Lisa & Philip talk it out, "Lockhart" morphs into "Lockwood" — for those of a lit crit or psychoanalytic bent, it definitely tracks with the deterioration of that family's characterization from salt of the earth, warm, loving — albeit locked together in dysfunctional ways too — to a new state of desperation, cold, brittle, libidinous instead of compassionate...

Edited November 16, 2015 by Margherita Erdman

[ScoobieDoobs]

I'm going to miss Montauk.  I love NYC, but I don't think we're getting a true taste of the city, while we did get the true feel of Montauk.

 

Well, Cole's POV is still very much part of the show & he still lives out there, so I don't think they're totally ditching Montauk -- unless he's moving with Luisa to Queens.  Did I miss something?

 

Are we getting a true feel for Montauk?  I'm very familiar with the various parts of the Hamptons, but have only been to Montauk once or twice & not recently.  Didn't seem to me like how it's portrayed on the show at all.  On the show, it seems more like somewhere on the Cape.  But since I haven't been there recently, I don't know if this is accurate.  Still, I too really like the scenes out there, whether accurate or not.

Edited November 16, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[Empress1]

Of all the obnoxious things Eden the publicist did - and everything she did was obnoxious - the point where I wanted to clock her the most was when she chimed in with "Didn't you?" when Alison said Noah had made it seems like she threw herself at Noah. Bitch, mind your business in your host's house and get off the phone at her table.

 

Also, Noah is totally going to fuck her.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Empress1

[Constantinople]

This now poses the question of whether or not Noah ever wanted to be a parent. I suspect that he never wanted kids at all, much less five with two different women.

From Episode 3 of this season, I believe from Noah's POV

Noah: I already have four kids from my first marriage, so...

Yvonne: Four kids?

Noah: Yeah. So I think I'm done.

From Noah's POV in the Season 1 Finale

Helen, talking to Noah: You did. You wanted a certain life. And I gave that to you. You were tired of being poor. You wanted a big family. I could've stopped that too. I didn't need to have four kids to try to make up for the wasteland that was my childhood.

So it appears Noah doesn't want the latest baby, but did, if Helen's comment in Noah's POV is to be believed, want the first four, or at least was the one who suggested Noah and Helen have a large family.

[DarkRaichu]

I agree that Whitney has serious issues and is a bully. Why does she think she can physically have a go at anyone who displeases her? She was a school bully too. I also thought she was going to cry rape when Cole grabbed her.

And she was a spolied bully before her parents split, so not an excuse Imo.

The grandma overrode her parents on most decision while immuned to any criticism at the same time.  Whitney was the product of little to no authority growing up.

[DarkRaichu]

Also, Noah is totally going to fuck her.

 

I thought that was the real reason they were late to the Thanksgiving dinner. ;)

[ScoobieDoobs]

Can anyone explain this house business to me? There is the Lockhart house, and then there is the Cole/Allison house which was her grandparents'? 

 

Last season the Lockharts had a horse farm (and Martin worked there briefly).  So they clearly had a considerable amount of very valuable land.  And it was clearly in the family for generations.  Cherry had to have fucked things up pretty badly financially to lose this place.  She said she re-financed it several times & maybe they weren't making enough revenue as a horse farm.  

 

If Cole was supposedly the leader of this family, um, how was he is so unaware of what was going on with the finances?  Idk, Cole is going around this thing like he is the perfect human being & everyone else is shit.  Actually, he does seem smarter (and way less scuzzy) than everyone around him (except Luisa), but still, he's seeming a little too smug to me.

 

The house where Alison & Cole lived, that he lives in, was left to Alison by her grandmother.  And speaking of Alison's grandma, how could she have written that cookbook in 1927, when she probably was born then or possibly a year or 2 before?  Doesn't make sense.

 

That Eden bitch is way too cozy with Noah.  I smell trouble with that one.

Edited November 16, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[Trillian]

What's with this business of the Lockharts' being Catholic? Normally, I wouldn't think anything of a mention of a family's religion, but it seemed to me that the writers REALLY wanted us to notice it. In the course of a few minutes at Thanksgiving dinner, the sister-in-law drops a mention of having had a Mass for her lost baby, there's a mention of Father so-and-so and then the family pointedly prays the Catholic version of the Our Father at dinner (Catholic version ends at "deliver us from evil") . Who uses the Our Father as a grace before meals? No one I've ever known - or seen on tv. The writing's usually pretty tight and I can't figure out why they'd drop all these Catholic anvils (IMO, they did everything but waive rosaries around) if it wasn't important. But why would it be important?

[cardigirl]

The house where Alison & Cole lived, that he lives in, was left to Alison by her grandmother.  And speaking of Alison's grandma, how could she have written that cookbook in 1927, when she probably was born then or possibly a year or 2 before?  Doesn't make sense.

I thought he was living in a trailer after Allison left.  Granted the trailer was on the grounds but I got the impression he was watching over it, sort of.  And when he thought someone had broken in and found Allison there, she said "aren't you living here?" and he said no.    He told her "It's your house, Allison" when she offered to leave. 

 

I think he didn't want to her to sell it, unless she wanted to, and I don't think, at the time, he was thinking about a share.  

[Blakeston]

Is Noah trying to get Helen's money? I thought all he was asking for in the divorce was shared custody. We were talking about whether Noah was a moocher during the marriage for living in a house paid for by his wife's inheritance.

In the mediation session, he said he didn't want the house. But then tempers flared by the time they had that hearing with the "communist" judge, he decided the house wasn't entirely hers.

[Former Nun]

I didn't like Athena last season and this season I really like her a lot

 

I'm not there yet.

 

If she ever confessed to Noah he would have at least have a pained look on his face with that question

 

He ALWAYS has a pained look on his face.

 

Yes, I'm confused why Helen's house is strictly hers, yet Alison's has to be split with Cole.

 

I think Helen's house is in a family trust...her parents' trust.

[heatherchandler]

I, too, can't stand looking at Noah anymore. It's like the makers of the show are trying to make the character look as unattractive as possible, to match his personality.

In real life, Alison wouldn't have to split the house money with Cole. The house in Montauk would be considered Alison's property, not joint property. She's the one who inherited it, so even if she received it during the marriage, it would be hers.

 

 

Is that true?  My husband inherited some property and I am pretty sure that because he inherited it during our marriage, if we ever divorced (God forbid!), I would be entitled to half.  Is it based on where they live?

[Bebecat]

Where I live, even though it is a community property state, inheritance is separate and can be left just to one of the partners. It may be the only exception, not sure. (New Mexico-getting divorced now, so it came up.)

[HumblePi]

I found it a telling moment when Alison went into the kitchen when the cocktail party was going on and found herself relating very well with the woman who was there as staff busy wiping martini glasses dry. Alison found her comfort zone with this woman and was probably the first time that day that she did feel comfortable talking with anyone. I also found it interesting that Noah explained to someone when they asked what Alison did, and he says 'well she's a nurse' but ....

 

Noah wouldn't feel comfortable with the NY wealthy and important people telling any of them that Alison was working as a waitress when he met her. Too far below his station?

[SlackerInc]

I love that the caterer responded to "do you mind?" with "no".  Most people these days respond "yes" or "sure", when they actually don't mind at all.  That, and the similarly backward "I could care less", are major pet peeves.

 

You can't make Noah blow off Jonathan Franzen!

 

I am normally more resistant than most to getting the warm-and-fuzzies for Cole, but I literally teared up from that encounter in the stairway and then the lovely, warm environment of her home and family.

 

But as usual, I was not fond of the melodramatic reveal in the lawyer's office at the end.  If that does not turn out to be a misunderstanding, it will be a shark jump.

 

I have lived in NYC and in Jersey City, and I agree that the apartment was over the top.  However, they are kind of forced into that by the general "apartment inflation" on TV.  People around the country (and world) were told that the roommates on "Friends" could afford that apartment despite none of them being high powered lawyers, traders, etc.  So if Noah and Allison were living in an apartment most New Yorkers would drool over but which looked dumpy compared to the other NYC apartments they see on TV, most viewers would fail to understand the signifier that they "made it".

 

Did Cole lie about his money clip being stolen in order to start that fight with Luisa? Because I wouldn't put it pass Scotty for sneaky into his home to steal $150 from his brother.

 

I thought for sure they were going to show it under the bag of muffins after she left.  But maybe based on the later conversation, it wasn't missing at all, and he just made it up to drive her away...?

 

It's really insulting that Cherry apparently views Whitney's abortion in the same category as her five year old grandson drowning, and also the same as her other daughter in law's  miscarriage. 

 

As noted above, they are super Catholic, and observant Catholics do see them as in the same category.

 

Noah did live in the house paid for by Helen's money.  I think it comes naturally to him to mooch off of women.

 

Wow, this comes across to me as really sexist.  But maybe I am misunderstanding you somehow.

 

OK, so have the writers decided to do a total turn-around for Athena -- or is it my imagination?  I thought she was a total ditz last season.  And pretty much anything/everything she said was white noise & babble not worth listening to.  And yet here she is this season, sharp as a tack, with 100% on-target observations.  What up, show?

 

I disagree.  What I recall is that from the very beginning she mixed in a clear ability to "read" people very well with a lot of woo-woo nonsense.

 

This now poses the question of whether or not Noah ever wanted to be a parent. I suspect that he never wanted kids at all, much less five with two different women.

 

This strikes me as emblematic of the general bias against Noah.  As Helen acknowledged in her POV segment in a recent episode, he is a loving and devoted father.

 

3. I am 75% sure Noah was sleeping with his assistant and the reason why they were late had nothing to do with that client/author/whoever they met after the party.  This would be in line with Noah's selfish needs

 

Ditto with this.  Anyone who thinks Noah would go for someone like Eden is really not understanding his character at all IMO (or since he is fictional, maybe I should say not understanding Treem's idea of Noah).  IOW "you are watching it wrong".  If it is ever actually portrayed that he does get with her, I will issue a mea culpa and immediately abandon this show.  But I am confident I won't need to.

 

Nice of Noah to thank Cole for dropping Whitney off at Noah's after driving her all the way from Montauk.

 

Wasn't Cole pointing a gun at his family the last time he saw him?  And then suddenly he's at his front door?  And he did invite Cole in for a drink, even if it was (as he acknowledged) a pro forma invitation, which itself served as a kind of thank you IMO.

[Glade]

I think society, in general, still needs to catch up with modern times.  Both wives in this story have the greater wealth, and it came from inheritance.  Yet Noah's a pig for even thinking of Helen's money, while poor old Cole deserves at least half of Alison's money.  Noah's a moocher for living in his wife's house, while Cole lived in Alison's, and apparently still did while hooking up with Luisa.  I wonder how Noah and Helen would be perceived if the roles were reversed.  Noah had a trust that paid for the marital home, and his parents paid for the children's schooling.  He has a vanity store that does nothing but lose money, while Helen works full time during the school year, and tries to write her second book over the summers.  Is Helen the moocher?  It interests me, because I really have to think on this because I seem to be a little old-fashioned myself.

 

 

Personally, I find it quite disturbing and hateful that someone who works a respectable, well-paying, full-time job with benefits including paid vacation and health insurance, etc, and then even spends their time off trying to startup a second career could ever be called a "moocher."  That sounds like it comes from Mitt Romney, who claimed that 45% of Americans were 'moochers," (i.e. low-wage workers, the retired and disabled, children, etc; anyone who isn't wealthy.)  And I'm sure Helen's mother donated big bucks to his political campaign when he said that.  But yes, men who are stay at home parents or who are supported by their wives, or just make less money are the target of a huge amount of shame and "emasculation" in our society. 

[Lemons]

I think society, in general, still needs to catch up with modern times.  .  I wonder how Noah and Helen would be perceived if the roles were reversed. 

 

They would call her a gold digger.   Moocher, gold digger - both negative terms and interchangeable in meaning.

[Former Nun]

As noted above, they are super Catholic, and observant Catholics do see them as in the same category.

 

 

I think there are many "modern" Christians (other than Catholic) who agree.  Religions that were fine with birth control in the 50s and 60s (even ridiculing Catholics for their stance) have made a turn-around.