B&B: What's Up Today at Forrester Creations? - Daily Chat

[Gudzilla]

Damn how big is Hope's ego? She has to make a trip out to see the guy she dumped so she could marry and have baby chicks with his brother, just to remind him of her amazingness.

 

How did chickenhead disappear so quickly from the beach house?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Promises promises that Hope is leaving, WHEN???!!  Don't let the door hit you on the way out and take the 3-some storyline with you and the Wyatt whistle!  LOL

[Joimiaroxeu]

I'm not going to flat out say that Caroline's issues with Maya are part of an implicit racial bias (because I really don't think that's what the writers were going for), but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

That was my take too until recent developments with Maya. I'm not convinced the writers were intending Caroline's disdaining treatment of Maya to be racist but the subtext was certainly there, IMO, just based on the optics of the situation.

 

This show has an abundance of blonde women, most of whom are held in some kind of exalted status. One of the most exalted of them (whose arrival was like a modernized version of Botticelli's painting, The Birth of Venus) repeatedly, deliberately, and publicly took cruel and demeaning shots at the show's sole Black female character. On the surface, IMO it looked at least partially racial even if it wasn't intended to be.

 

Futhermore, one of the two Black male characters also did little more than dump on Maya, as if that was to make what Caroline was doing okay. IMO, all it did was make Carter resemble a certain Black male stereotype which openly and bitterly hates on Black women at the expense of women of other races. Not sure if there were any Black writers on staff then but I should think they would've known how wrong that could look.

 

For whatever reason, the writers/TPTB seem to have seen the error of their ways. Carter still criticizes Maya but it's with a lighter touch. She's allowed to explain her motivation--delusional though it may be--and she's no longer positioned as a either a weak victim or a mindless villain. They've evened up (IMO) the score between Caroline and Maya and now I think it makes more sense for Caroline to be calling her out. (But Caroline needs to avoid the "Myrna" stuff. I think that definitely looks borderline racist for largely historical reasons.)

[KerleyQ]

Futhermore, one of the two Black male characters also did little more than dump on Maya, as if that was to make what Caroline was doing okay. IMO, all it did was make Carter resemble a certain Black male stereotype which openly and bitterly hates on Black women at the expense of women of other races. Not sure if there were any Black writers on staff then but I should think they would've known how wrong that could look.

 

 

But the only reason Carter has been dumping on her is because she was still chasing after Rick while engaged to him, basically leaving him as her backup that "I guess I'll marry if this guy I really want won't have me."   This has never been about Carter preferring another race or hating on black women.  Quite contrary, Carter was very into Maya, and his actions now are those of a guy who was hurt by her rejection but also now sees how conniving and gold-digging she is.   If anything, Maya was the one who was slotting the black guy into second place while she chased after her dream guy - the white, blonde, rich guy. 

[slayer2]

That was my take too until recent developments with Maya. I'm not convinced the writers were intending Caroline's disdaining treatment of Maya to be racist but the subtext was certainly there, IMO, just based on the optics of the situation.

This show has an abundance of blonde women, most of whom are held in some kind of exalted status. One of the most exalted of them (whose arrival was like a modernized version of Botticelli's painting, The Birth of Venus) repeatedly, deliberately, and publicly took cruel and demeaning shots at the show's sole Black female character. On the surface, IMO it looked at least partially racial even if it wasn't intended to be.

Futhermore, one of the two Black male characters also did little more than dump on Maya, as if that was to make what Caroline was doing okay. IMO, all it did was make Carter resemble a certain Black male stereotype which openly and bitterly hates on Black women at the expense of women of other races. Not sure if there were any Black writers on staff then but I should think they would've known how wrong that could look.

For whatever reason, the writers/TPTB seem to have seen the error of their ways. Carter still criticizes Maya but it's with a lighter touch. She's allowed to explain her motivation--delusional though it may be--and she's no longer positioned as a either a weak victim or a mindless villain. They've evened up (IMO) the score between Caroline and Maya and now I think it makes more sense for Caroline to be calling her out. (But Caroline needs to avoid the "Myrna" stuff. I think that definitely looks borderline racist for largely historical reasons.)

This!! And because there is no other female black character to juxtapose Carter's treatment of Maya with it does play as an issue that is truly a problem in this day and age (see hip-hop for examples) which is black men denigrating black women. It's all well and fine to say that Carter is hurt and lashing out but that isn't playing out on-screen since the actor barely gets enough screentime to shake his head or throw some obligatory Forrester prop.

Whether for better or worse Maya is the only representation of female blackness on the show and to have Caroline degrade her in quite the way she degrades her feels racial. One would only need to look at the way Hope addresses Ivy to note the difference in behaviour. There is no love lost there either yet none of their scenes come off as Hope chastising 'the help'. Ivy is permitted to speak to Hope as an equal and Hope surely sees her that way if not completely perturbed by her. This is not the way with Caroline and Maya. Far from it in fact.

KerleyQ to speak to your point about black women and sisterhood and sticking together in adversity and whatnot (wrt Dayzee and Maya) frankly it is that way when you are the only two black women in an all white situation. It's not a matter of different personalities and special status and it IS quite universal because it is how communities survive.

I grew up in an all white town where there was only one other black family and we were close because we had to be. Dayzee and Maya were the only black women around (or in the city apparently according to nutty B&B rules) not only was race separating them from the Forresters but class as well, there is NO possible way that with only two black women in town, both apparently of lower class upbringings, one of them would be talking out of turn about the other with her rich white friend. We have names for people like that. It just isn't a realistic depiction of black girlfriends or jewish girlfriends or chinese girlfriends or gay girlfriends or frankly any minority group and if they had a more diverse writing staff they would be more apt to understand that.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[kia112]

I can never feel sorry for Carter, as he was doggedly pursuing Maya while she was in a relationship with Rick. Telling her that they could sleep together and no one would have to know. Proposing to her 4 days after she broke up with her boyfriend. He tried to emotionally manipulate her more than once. And now he's mad because he finally figured out that he was the rebound?

[thewhiteowl]

 

Whether for better or worse Maya is the only representation of female blackness on the show and to have Caroline degrade her in quite the way she degrades her feels racial. One would only need to look at the way Hope addresses Ivy to note the difference in behaviour. There is no love lost there either yet none of their scenes come off as Hope chastising 'the help'. Ivy is permitted to speak to Hope as an equal and Hope surely sees her that way if not completely perturbed by her. This is not the way with Caroline and Maya. Far from it in fact.

 

  I don't see this as the same situation. Ivy is a Forrester and didn't do anything but support Liam until Hope's baby Wype made the decision for her.  Maya is the help. She's a clothes hanger and terrible one at that.  Nothing to do with her hue.

 

[slayer2]

I can never feel sorry for Carter, as he was doggedly pursuing Maya while she was in a relationship with Rick. Telling her that they could sleep together and no one would have to know. Proposing to her 4 days after she broke up with her boyfriend. He tried to emotionally manipulate her more than once. And now he's mad because he finally figured out that he was the rebound?

A wonderful point. And it speaks to the attention deficit of the writers that they can't see any plot halfway through without plot interuptus in the silliest of ways. Maya and Carter should never have happened that quickly (or even at all IMO). Chemistry wise (and I can only speak for myself) I never saw it but for those that may have it still didn't build organically like Thomas and Dayzee or Bill and Katie it was like...BOOM Carter and Maya for no fucking reason. If we're only allowed to have one black actor with his own (sort of) storyline then I'd prefer they give it to Marcus' father. A much stronger actor and just hotter all around IMO.

I don't see this as the same situation. Ivy is a Forrester and didn't do anything but support Liam until Hope's baby Wype made the decision for her. Maya is the help. She's a clothes hanger and terrible one at that. Nothing to do with her hue.

I think there's an inherent problem that you see her that way. A model for a fashion house is in no way 'the help'. Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[thewhiteowl]

 

I think there's an inherent problem that you see her that way. A model for a fashion house is no 'the help'.

 

 She was hired to do a job,  that's the help to me. 

 

[KerleyQ]

I grew up in an all white town where there was only one other black family and we were close because we had to be. Dayzee and Maya were the only black women around (or in the city apparently according to nutty B&B rules) not only was race separating them from the Forresters but class as well, there is NO possible way that with only two black women in town, both apparently of lower class upbringings, one of them would be talking out of turn about the other with her rich white friend. We have names for people like that. It just isn't a realistic depiction of black girlfriends or jewish girlfriends or chinese girlfriends or gay girlfriends or frankly any minority group and if they had a more diverse writing staff they would be more apt to understand that.

 

 

The difference, to me, is that Dayzee and Maya were never really girlfriends, and they knew each other outside of and before being the only two black people in all of the FC universe.  Dayzee already didn't like her.  You say "we have names for people like that," which implies to me that, yeah, it can happen, even if it's not common or considered widely acceptable by the community at large.  Dayzee clearly considered herself "better than" Maya, and her actions constantly reflected that.  She wasn't someone who was in a mindset of worrying about communities surviving or having someone's back.  She didn't like or trust Maya and she had clearly established that her loyalties were with the Forrester family, not a woman she knew by virtue of helping to place her child for adoption while she was in prison.  

 

Like I said before, I don't think Dayzee's attitude toward Maya was particularly attractive.  I do, however, think it was human.  And that is what I want to see when characters who are typically under-represented on daytime are on the canvas - I want to see them treated as fully rounded human beings, with good and bad traits.  Dayzee displayed some distasteful traits.  Good.  So does every other character on this show.  I consider that a good thing.  They shouldn't be treading carefully so as not to let a black woman ever appear in a negative light.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Maya is the help.

Oh, that invokes some unfortunate imagery...

[slayer2]

She was hired to do a job, that's the help to me.

That's really not what 'the help' is classified as with respect (or disrespect) to blacks or latinas. If unfamiliar (there's a movie based on this called The Help) it is used as a term of denigration, a way to separate the white haves from the minority have-nots and it is not something the Bold and the Beautiful nor anyone should be throwing around willy nilly.

KerleyQ It's a black girl code, it's irrelevant whether whether they were close or not it's just not something that's done. If there were black writers on staff then perhaps I'd be as comfortable as you are with a flawed black character and the Dayzee/Maya dynamic is something they would surely catch but to my knowledge there are none, something I recall Victoria Rowell lamenting and something that should be fixed.

The fact that they had Clarence on YouTube, that alone tells me they know they have black viewers. Truly shameful behaviour it is.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[KerleyQ]

OK, just bringing my own personal experience into this, and then I'll drop it, because I don't want to take over the forum with it - 

 

I worked in an office that was predominantly white.  There were two (and only two) black women in my department (I'll refer to them with their respective initials "L" and "B").  And they did not like each other.  Not even a little bit.  "L" was the come in late, push her work off on other people, complain that people were being mean to her if they expected her to do her work kind of employee.  When some of us would go out to lunch or on a break, without "L" being with us, "B" would absolutely rip on "L."  She'd talk about how lazy she was, how sick she was of the rest of us doing her work, how she should be fired, etc.  

 

I'm not saying that there isn't some code that a lot of black women follow, because I personally haven't interacted with every black woman in the country (have any of us?) But, with every "code" there is always going to be someone who breaks it.  When you're talking about a group as diverse, numerous, and loosely defined as "every black woman," then it's a near certainty that they aren't all going to adhere to some "unwritten code."  That's just human nature.  

[slayer2]

KerleyQ while that may be true that someone inherently breaks it as in your case, if there is only one example of black culture and black sisterhood on an otherwise white show do you really believe that they should be showcasing the exception and not the rule? Especially if the exception highlights an ugly side that the majority of us actively choose not to give in to? I don't.

 

If there had many examples of minorities on this show then B&B would have the luxury to highlight things that were truly despicable in black culture eg. black women betraying each other, black women being viewed as the help, black women being denigrated by black men. But it doesn't, so every time it does something that falls into a trope eg. Maya the ex-convict, Dayzee the homeless person, Marcus the black kid who grew up poor and without a father or represents something that we as a culture are unlikely to do it only makes it that much more glaring and offensive to a black woman watching. 

 

Does anyone happen to know if a recast for Hope is imminent or will they be waiting a while?

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[St3phForrester]

I wonder how many minority perspectives are in the writers room.

I could be wrong but I think Michele van Jean is African-American.

 

Re: the race thing, I have never seen the Maya/Caroline friction as being race-related or as originating in a race-related problem initially; I've understood Caroline calling Maya names other than "Maya" as simply being rude and being more about class rather than race, but then I live in a society that hasn't grown up with that historical connotation and I also personally don't buy into the "us vs them" dichotomy based on the colour of our skin because I believe we're all people and we're all in this together. I don't see Maya and Carter as "the black characters"; I see them as the gold-digging ex-con-turned-singer-turned-actress-turned-model-turned-arm candy and the smokin' hot corporate lawyer who makes poor personal decisions and who apparently plays raquetball with Ridge. The "black sisterhood" thing shouldn't be a call to arms against the white majority, it should be a celebration of black culture (however that is defined) and an effort to promote multiculturalism and equality. (As an aside, why can't we all be sisters???)

 

Is the diaper cake really an American tradition? Surely something someone saw once on Pintrest isn't a tradition. That said, it seems to me that one of our baby shower traditions is to smear melted chocolate bars onto nappies and have contestants guess what they used to be, with the gag being that people often lick what looks like a soiled nappy. So, whatever.

 

Hope feels that she should be honest with Eric after what happened between Rick & Caroline? She should be honest with Eric all the time. Dopey cow.

 

I thought that was actually such a sweet line from Eric, very humble and self-deprecating. I don't think he saw Donna as a fling at all, but was just saying that she had loved "an old coot" like him and he was grateful for their time together.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean that what he said at Thanksgiving was proof that he thought it had been a wild ride and that was all, it was more in conjunction with all the other hints we've had post-Donna/Eric and particularly recently that makes it look like he thought it was a bump in the road in his relationship with Stephanie, when what actually happened was a lot more serious and significant, when he must know at some level that Donna is still into him and for some reason he's leading her on by not entertaining her advances. (Does that make sense? I feel like that doesn't make sense.)

 

Anyway, it may be neither here nor there in the near future because of all the love Jennifer Gareis is getting for being back on Y&R.

 

I was happy to notice that Eric finally got a more substantial frame for that portrait of Stephanie.

Wasn't the portrait completely different?  I thought that was a different picture of Queen Stephanie.

Not that anyone's counting, but there are 3 pictures of Stephanie/SF scattered around the B&B universe:

 

1) The large dark blue one above the fireplace with the silver (?) frame from the 2012 Vanity Fair photoshoot;
2) The smaller blackish picture with the wooden/golden thick frame in the dining room from the 2008 (?) photoshoot;
3) The even smaller photo of Stephanie in the blue pant suit that sits above the fireplace in Eric's office from 2004-5.

 

There's also the one of Stephanie & Eric from 1987 (he's in the white dinner jacket and she in that gold sparkly number) that sits on the cupboard behind Eric's desk, and there may or may not be one in Rick's office w/ Brooke but I might be remembering wrong.

 

was anyone else wanting Eric to say to Rick when Rick was whining to Eric about "But Dad, it was Ridge.... you just don't know how it felt"  To hit poor little Rick with an, Oh yeah, I think I do, how do you think I felt when he took your mom away from me?

Ooh ooh me me me. The writers were good enough to bring that up in 2011 and have been on the ball with the Brooke/Eric history of late so I was disappointed (but not surprised) that it wasn't brought up again this time around.

 

Wake me up when it's Christmas.

[Joimiaroxeu]

 

If there had many examples of minorities on this show then B&B would have the luxury to highlight things that were truly despicable in black culture eg. black women betraying each other, black women being viewed as the help, black women being denigrated by black men. But it doesn't, so every time it does something that falls into a trope eg. Maya the ex-convict, Dayzee the homeless person, Marcus the black kid who grew up poor and without a father or represents something that we as a culture are unlikely to do it only makes it that much more glaring and offensive to a black woman watching.

This.

[kia112]

I could be wrong but I think Michele van Jean is African-American.

 

Re: the race thing, I have never seen the Maya/Caroline friction as being race-related or as originating in a race-related problem initially; I've understood Caroline calling Maya names other than "Maya" as simply being rude and being more about class rather than race, but then I live in a society that hasn't grown up with that historical connotation and I also personally don't buy into the "us vs them" dichotomy based on the colour of our skin because I believe we're all people and we're all in this together. I don't see Maya and Carter as "the black characters"; I see them as the gold-digging ex-con-turned-singer-turned-actress-turned-model-turned-arm candy and the smokin' hot corporate lawyer who makes poor personal decisions and who apparently plays raquetball with Ridge. The "black sisterhood" thing shouldn't be a call to arms against the white majority, it should be a celebration of black culture (however that is defined) and an effort to promote multiculturalism and equality. (As an aside, why can't we all be sisters???)

 

IMO, many people see racism as this overt, epithet dropping, cross burning, "The South Will Rise Again" nonsense.  But it's sophisticated; it's evolved with the times.  It's also insidious.  Like I said, I'm not going to say that Caroline and Maya were racial, but I've experienced enough to be able to say "That's what it felt like to me, and it's unfortunate that you didn't take different perspectives into account."

 

I also don't think that the "black sisterhood" that slayer2 talked about has to be a call to arms (it's not, actually).  It's not at the expense of anyone, it's not marginalizing anyone else, just making sure that you don't take part in the marginalizing of a person that belongs to a group that is already marginalized.

 

Maya and Carter aren't "the black characters" to me, either, but I think it's almost as insensitive to think that they exist in some colorblind, we're all the same bubble.  We're not all the same.  That doesn't make different people bad or inferior, but it just means that you can't paint everyone with the same broad strokes.  Like, you can call Maya "the help" if you want to (sorry thewhiteowl ;-) ), but that conjures up centuries of a very targeted denigration of people who look like I do.

 

But this is a soap opera.  An enjoyable one (more than Y&R, anyway), but one just the same.  Most of this stuff I brush off because, well, look at what I'm watching.  I do see it, though, and it makes me uncomfortable sometimes.

 

Hope we haven't derailed the convo too much, mods. :-D

Edited December 2, 2014 by kia112

[RuntheTable]

Geez, what a snooze fest that was yesterday. How many times are we going to watch Quinn and Deacon have the same conversation while eating fruit? RS was looking particularly beautiful though, and I was pleased to see that Deacon had washed his hair. I wonder if he just skipped shampoo and went straight for the Dawn given the amount of oil I saw in his hair last time he was on screen. 

 

How would Eric know how Hope conducted her business in Amsterdam? Oh, let me guess, everyone, expect maybe Ivy, came back singing Hope's praises, and going on about how professional she was, and how helpful to Ivy. And what was the point of visiting Liam? Was she trying to remind him of her greatness? Or was she there just to make sure Liam knew who arranged the boat ride? I think she wants Liam miserable under all circumstances. She doesn’t want him bonding with Wyatt, she doesn’t want him moving on with Ivy; all she wants is to make sure he remembers what they had, and that she made her choice based on Quinn’s actions. No offence to Kim Matula, but this character cannot get off my tv screen fast enough.

 

Hey, did everyone see those montages and flashbacks? How novel right? And I would guess we will beat over the head with them for the duration of Hope’s stay, you know, just to keep reminding us of this incredibly tragic love story between Hope and Liam.

 

This is going to be a long month if this is what we have to look forward to.

[Unwarranted]

This show has consistently portrayed black people in what I consider an unrealistic way.  Many of the incidental black minor characters in the past have been cold, distant, very official.  I have wondered if somebody had a bad expeirence with a black nanny long ago, and this was about the only black person he/she ever knew.  I have cringed at the jailbird, homeless, gold-digger stuff that has come up with the very few black leading characters.  I wouldn't say, though, that Maya is truly a golddigger, because she was quite willing for Rick to give up being a CEO to stay with her.   But she has been pushy and callous, flaunting her new status, reveling in the power and wealth she thinks she will have.   I think in this case, with the position that Maya was in, the writers couldn't resist going for it, probably they would have done the same if she had been white.  But we don't know.  As it is, she is the representative black person on the show, with a little assist from Carter, and I have felt uncomfortable with it.  To make up for this, to show their hearts are in the right place, the writers need to bring us an extremely personable, expansive, funny, dynamic, honorable black person to enjoy and admire.  Right away.   

[ByTor]

Well, as far as Carter goes, all I can say is if Maya doesn't want him I'll take him :)  Several episodes back, as Maya was with Carter showing off a piece of jewelry Rick gave her, she made a comment like "I'm sure when you're in a relationship you'll buy her what you can afford."  How rude was that?  I don't know what corporate attorneys make, but I don't think he's at a pay grade a comment like that would imply. I'm a little mixed on how he talks to her.  On one hand, I don't blame him, being that Maya dumped him & flaunts her new relationship like nobody's business, but on the other hand, the whole getting engaged after not even being on a date is a little ridiculous.

 

I didn't see yesterday's show yet...Eric was praising Hopi's (glad we don't hear THAT nickname anymore!) job in Amsterdam?  Oh spare me, she was horrible to Ivy! "Hope" and "professional" shouldn't be in the same sentence (unless the word "not" is injected somewhere in the middle).

[New User]

Long time poster at TWoP in a lot of the soap opera threads (and been lurking here since it shut down).

 

I've wanted to make an account for awhile, but Liam's jacket in Amsterdam finally inspired me. Does anyone know where I can find it or what brand it was, etc? It was the grey jacket he wore while they filmed there and it looked liked a version of a racer jacket/Member's Only jacket, but with it's own little details. Need this jacket! I checked the B&B Fashion Facebook page but I didn't see anything there. Thanks for the help in advance.

[kia112]

Several episodes back, as Maya was with Carter showing off a piece of jewelry Rick gave her, she made a comment like "I'm sure when you're in a relationship you'll buy her what you can afford."  How rude was that?  I don't know what corporate attorneys make, but I don't think he's at a pay grade a comment like that would imply. I'm a little mixed on how he talks to her.  On one hand, I don't blame him, being that Maya dumped him & flaunts her new relationship like nobody's business, but on the other hand, the whole getting engaged after not even being on a date is a little ridiculous.

 

More of my Carter hate speaking, but he gets on my nerves when he talks about how much Maya likes that Rick is rich.  Who wouldn't?  Speaking for myself, if I had a choice between a guy I loved who was also a millionaire and a guy I liked who was not, I'd go for the guy I loved who was a millionaire.  It's like Carter is willfully ignoring the fact that Maya was never in love with him and keeps trying to push this narrative that she would have stuck with him if he was rich.  No, boo boo.  She just didn't want you, as evidenced by the fact that she never gave him a second glance unless she was in a bad place with Rick (finding out he lied to her about being a Forrester, disappointment because he didn't show up to her premiere, breaking up with him after he cheated on her).

[ByTor]

More of my Carter hate speaking, but he gets on my nerves when he talks about how much Maya likes that Rick is rich.  

Except IMO she acts like Carter is a pauper.  Certainly he's not Forrester wealthy, but he's no slouch in the money department.

 

I do blame inconsistent writing more than anything.  Let's see, Maya is a golddigger, but then she tells Rick that she doesn't care if he has to give up the CEO position, she just wants Rick.  So what is it?

[RuntheTable]

Several episodes back, as Maya was with Carter showing off a piece of jewelry Rick gave her, she made a comment like "I'm sure when you're in a relationship you'll buy her what you can afford."  How rude was that?

 

 

More of my Carter hate speaking, but he gets on my nerves when he talks about how much Maya likes that Rick is rich.  Who wouldn't?  Speaking for myself, if I had a choice between a guy I loved who was also a millionaire and a guy I liked who was not, I'd go for the guy I loved who was a millionaire.

 

 

 

I get this, and if I was a young girl again and had this choice? Who knows. Here is my thing though; Carter was a love struck fool and proposed to a woman he barely knew and had never dated. So, for me that makes him kinda dumb in the love department. But, he is still an educated well employed Corporate Attorney, who I am sure earns more than pocket change. Maya carries on as if Carter is flipping the burgers. But what really, really annoys me, is how she is continually rubbing it in Carter's face that she is with Rick. Maya wants bling? Fine; let Rick keep on showering his sidepiece with the sparklies, but sidepiece doesn't need to go around shoving those sparklies in Carter's face in an attempt to show him how the rich boys do it. I don't really find it rude, so much as offensive, and just so low class.

Edited December 2, 2014 by RuntheTable

[kia112]

And maybe if Carter hadn't continually told Maya that Rick would never leave Caroline and how she was living in a dreamworld thinking Rick would come back to her, etc, I would feel sorry for him (no I wouldn't).  I'm not saying that Maya is right, I'm just saying that I get it.  Just like Carter's not right to laugh in her face about these new developments, but I get it.

[Cool Breeze]

 

And that is what I want to see when characters who are typically under-represented on daytime are on the canvas - I want to see them treated as fully rounded human beings, with good and bad traits.  Dayzee displayed some distasteful traits.  Good.  So does every other character on this show.  I consider that a good thing.  They shouldn't be treading carefully so as not to let a black woman ever appear in a negative light.

 

I recall a study done years ago on black characters in television (may even have been limited to soaps) that concluded essentially all those characters were firmly, solidly middle-class.  Nice right?  Insulates TPTB from any racial criticism, e.g., "See? They're not poor!"  Except in a world where we want fully-fleshed out, well-rounded, and, yes, flawed characters, we need to see images of all stripes not just those of the "safe" variety.  That said, I completely understand the dilemma when there are only two black characters on canvas and one has no use for the other, to the point of elevating his or her (Dayzee) status by stepping on the other. Something about that feels uncomfortable.  But, as has been said, there is an element of basic human nature in that response.  At some point, Carter has to be given the latitude to dislike Maya.  She dumped him for a shinier, richer man and she lords it over him every chance she gets.  Who wouldn't be upset about that? I think it's too much to ask that he continue to support her (and her heavy-handedness) in front of the white characters based on racial solidarity.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Cool Breeze

[kia112]

Personally, I don't care that Carter doesn't like Maya.  It's his astounding lack of self-awareness, his martyr complex and his stalker tendencies that turn me off.  Unfortunately, his only storyline is wrapped up with Maya, so all of those unattractive qualities are on full display and they're projected onto her.

 

Quinn's wack-a-doodle fantasies always suck me in.  I thought that Hope was going to slap Quinn or something when she asked her to stay.

 

Oh, Pam.  Inviting the (ex-)mistress of the pregnant lady's brother while also inviting the pregnant lady brother's wife is the epitome of things that you can "not not" do.

Edited December 2, 2014 by kia112

[Ladybugnine]

I recall a study done years ago on black characters in television (may even have been limited to soaps) that concluded essentially all those characters were firmly, solidly middle-class.  Nice right?  Insulates TPTB from any racial criticism, e.g., "See? They're not poor!"  Except in a world where we want fully-fleshed out, well-rounded, and, yes, flawed characters, we need to see images of all stripes not just those of the "safe" variety.  That said, I completely understand the dilemma when there are only two black characters on canvas and one has no use for the other, to the point of elevating his or her (Dayzee) status by stepping on the other. Something about that feels uncomfortable.  But, as has been said, there is an element of basic human nature in that response.  At some point, Carter has to be given the latitude to dislike Maya.  She dumped him for a shinier, richer man and she lords it over him every chance she gets.  Who wouldn't be upset about that? I think it's too much to ask that he continue to support her (and her heavy-handedness) in front of the white characters based on racial solidarity.

ITA! At least on this show, the black characters don't necessarily have to be in each others' orbit ALL. THE. TIME., like they are on Y&R, and on Black Story Line Wednesdays, either. I think Dayzee's treatment of Maya once she realized she wasn't going away was pretty on point (Kudos, writers, I guess). She was the special snowflake, and was wary of sharing that "specialness" with another.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Maya's getting a sister. I guess they're fleshing out the character a bit? The actress who'll be playing the sister is 18 so she's a little young for most of the B&B guys like Wyatt and Liam and Oliver, I think. It'll be interesting to see how they work her in.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Joimiaroxeu

[SweePea59]

 

Owen: Started off as a menacing, loan-shark/spy/villain out to blackmail Marcus. Became an FC designer with Donna on some men's swimwear. Then became Jackie's boy toy with a heart of gold.

Didn't Owen start out as his own evil twin?

[Turtle]

Oh my god, I did not think Hope could be more insufferable, but then I saw her seating arrangement and wanted to crawl through the television and punch her right in the throat.  The goal of holiday dinners is not to make things as awkward as possible.  She really is the absolute worst.

 

I loved Deacon and Liam today.  Just fun. 

 

Honestly, Most Awkward Baby Shower Ever, even before Quinn's appearance.  Caroline's eye rolls were a thing of beauty. 

Surely that "Stay, Mom" at the end of today's episode was Quinn dreaming, right?  Because even if Hope did come around, I cannot imagine that she would ever call Quinn "Mom."  That said, I think Hope is a dummy for not giving an inch on the whole Quinn thing.  Sure, Quinn is a dangerous whackadoodle, but this hardline stance is only going to make Quinn nuttier.  A reasonable compromise might serve Hope a little better.  Like, have one lunch a week, in public, to update Quinn about the baby.  Plus, I can't stand Hope, and so I disagree with everything she says or does.

[TobinAlbers]

 

Maya's getting a sister. I guess they're fleshing out the character a bit? The actress who'll be playing the sister is 18 so she's a little young for most of the B&B guys like Wyatt and Liam and Oliver, I think. It'll be interesting to see how they work her in.

 

Money says she's to mess up Oliver and Ally. Unless they SORAS RJ or bring on Lil' Deacon all grown up. It'd be nice if she was for a lady onscreen but there's a dearth of options on the feminine side as well unless Ally discovers she's bisexual or they put her with someone older.

 

I'm going with she's coming to give Ally a run for her money with Oliver. 

[slayer2]

Maya's getting a sister. I guess they're fleshing out the character a bit? The actress who'll be playing the sister is 18 so she's a little young for most of the B&B guys like Wyatt and Liam and Oliver, I think. It'll be interesting to see how they work her in.

Yay!! Thanks for the info! That's great news, maybe TPTB see how well Karla is doing with the material so they are finally fleshing her out. :)

[kia112]

Yeah, re: Maya's sister, I was thinking that since it seems like we're stuck with SK lounging around, doing nothing, they might as well bring in a SOARSed Alphabet Baby for her love interest.

Pretty boring bonus scene today. They were right to cut this one.

http://youtu.be/FW33i49yU_s

[kia112]

He's with both. They're in some kind of Three's Company co-parenting situation in New York. He's with Jackie, but Bridget lives across the hall or something with Logan.

[ByTor]

I'm going with she's coming to give Ally a run for her money with Oliver. 

That was my 1st thought as well.

[slayer2]

Oh Hope. I hate you. Gah! You don't get to choose to marry the so-called "love of your life's" brother (not buying that btw) and then get pissy  and stalkerish when he moves on with someone who is, frankly a lot more awesome than you. Whining and wincing as though every little thing Liam/Ivy do is some personal affront and why are you even at his house anyway? Grow up, get a life and GO HOME to...I don't know...your HUSBAND? She truly is THE WORST.

 

Also, I agree with whomever said upthread that Ivy resembles a young Elizabeth Taylor, just gorgeous.

 

ETA I actually liked that bonus scene. Thanks for sharing it! I'm a sucker for anything featuring the Logan women, I love the solidarity of Katie and Donna both wearing royal blue. Jennifer Gareis is looking fabulous these days. I so wish they hadn't ruined the sisterhood over Dollar Bill. *sad face*. Stupid glittery-hoo-ha Brooke. It's been nice to have a break from her, honestly.

Edited December 2, 2014 by slayer2

[Greta]

To me, the Maya/Carter scenes are jarring because, based on soap conventions, it seems like they should be building up to some explosion of UST and/or a Maya/Carter endgame, but I don't think that's the case. Based on a deep foundation of Having Watched Soaps Before, when I see character A thrusting her jewelry from her new rich boyfriend under the nose of the old boyfriend while crowing about the new guy or going out of her way to involve old guy in her ridiculous annulment schemes, it tells me that character A is protesting too much and is still hung up on the old boyfriend.  But I don't see that with Maya and Carter, so I just sit there wondering why she's seeking him out.

 

Ok, I just confessed to applying storytelling logic to B&B. I'll seek help immediately.

[Gudzilla]

 

Is the diaper cake really an American tradition? 

I can't speak for anyone else but I'll give you the comment my 81 year old mother said. " What the hell is a diaper cake?"

 

 

 

Not that anyone's counting, but there are 3 pictures of Stephanie/SF scattered around the B&B universe:

Interesting I've only noticed 2, but can we get a count on how many self photos $Bill has in his office? ;)

 

 

 

Then she breaks into the second floor of a house, sneaks downstairs to the baby shower, grovels like a dog at Hope's feet, and THAT does the trick?

Hope does love to have people groveling at her feet. I don't think this is a Quinn fantasy because I can't see Quinn fantasizing herself groveling.

[grisgris]

How did Hopeless go from having a nearly concave stomach to looking like she swallowed a Nerf football in two weeks?

 

I think that Quinn was having another "episode." I'm sure that I saw in a preview clip of somebody (Wyatt?) saying

"It's time to get that restraining order."

Maybe I was the one having an "episode." LOL!

 

I seem to have some vague collection of seeing a photo of a diaper cake at a celebrity baby shower in some magazine a while back. For some reason, Kate Middleton comes to mind. Anyway, I looked it up and apparently diaper cakes are all the rage at baby showers. You can buy some pretty fancy pre-made ones. I think that would actually be cheaper than buying boxes and boxes of Pampers.

 

Do you think that Wyatt and Quinn are both headed towards the exit when Hope departs? I don't really see any storyline for them once she's gone.

 

Donna wins the prize for the best dressed/groomed at the party. Caroline, on the other hand, looked like a hot mess.

[smartyshorts]

Re: Diaper cakes... They are pretty popular. I have two friends whose go to baby shower gift is ALWAYS a big diaper cake, registry be damned. And I think having a baby shower this early in the pregnancy is not only bad form, but bad luck. Unless the Mom to be is about to move out of state or country. Or off the planet.

Oh great, yet another occasion where I am thinking...why the hell is Maya there? No, seriously. Why was she invited, why would she accept. She and Hope aren't friends. Is it one of those things where you start thinking, 'well she's been at all of our board meetings, maybe she is someone's friend or relative and we should keep including her'.

Oh Quinn, I love her crazy ass, but I need her to find something new to do. Bill could use a poke in the neck! Besides, who crashes a baby shower without even bringing a fabulous gift? How gouache!!

[bubble sparkly]

So it seems like they could be hinting at a Caroline pregnancy.  Rick said a few weeks ago it was a good thing he and Caroline didn't have kids, then today Caroline said she wasn't pregnant but it probably wouldn't be far off.  I wonder if after Rick/Caroline implode because she learns the truth, she will discover she's pregnant.  I guess it would prolong the drama because if Rick and Maya are together Maya is going to be furious if Rick remains tied to Caroline through a baby.  It would also put a dent in Caroline's potential future romance.

[RuntheTable]

Surprisingly, I didn't absolutely hate yesterday's show. Liam and Deacon? Wow, I didn't see that coming, but they were great together. Not in the same way as Liam and Bill, but still, I was very entertained watching them interact, and just like B/L, there was some good one liners in that conversation. My only irritation was that Liam was there at all; let Hope's husband protect her from his mother. If Liam was that concerned, he should have called Wyatt. But really, what did Liam think Quinn was going to do? There were eight people there; did he think she would bang the door down with a battering ram to take them all by surprise or something? 

 

What was up with Katie just standing there as Donna struggled to get that massive box in the door? 

 

So from the dialog I take it Hope decided who was coming to her way too early baby shower? Why on God's green earth would she invite Maya and Caroline? I understand Caroline, but I don't get Maya at all. 

 

After watching Hope and Liam yesterday I began to understand why she went to see him. Hope praise. Hope adulation. Hope reverence. Hope is used to receiving these things from both Liam and Wyatt, but now she is only getting them from Wyatt and it is simply not enough. What I noticed was how Hope's entire demeanor changed once Liam started reassuring her that she was still the "special" one. UGH. 

 

Once again I found myself feeling sorry for Quinn. I don't believe that was one of her fantasy sequences because those have always been in black and white, and if it was a fantasy, then we will have to go through Hope's shower a second time. It seems Quinn has learned the art of proper Hope worship. See, all it took was some kneeling and groveling and begging and you get the ICON eating right outta your hand. 

 

What happened to my beautiful Caroline? Is this what reconciling with Rick has done to her? 

 

Donna looked smashing.

 

Ally's hair! 

Edited December 3, 2014 by RuntheTable

[Joimiaroxeu]

It would also put a dent in Caroline's potential future romance.

Not necessarily. TK's character's hottest romance on AMC began with a woman who was pregnant with another guy's kid. He could make it work if they write it right. Her carrying Ridge's brother's baby would add a certain ick factor though (IMO) if Caroline and Ridge finally surrender to their passion while she's pregnant.

 

diaper cakes

I'm sorry, I know what this means but my mind keeps going to a yuckier place. Ugh, the words "cake" and "diaper" should not be placed next to each other.

 

I'm going with she's coming to give Ally a run for her money with Oliver.

That could be interesting since Aly can go psycho at the drop of a hat. I just hope it wouldn't turn out to be a "the girl who puts out versus the virgin in love" storyline.

[KerleyQ]

And I think having a baby shower this early in the pregnancy is not only bad form, but bad luck. Unless the Mom to be is about to move out of state or country. Or off the planet.

 

 

When they were talking about how sad it was that Brooke was missing the shower, I was thinking "well then maybe you could have waited until the baby was bigger than a blueberry to have the damn thing and give her time to get back for it."  Seriously, why were they having a shower that was apparently pulled together at the last minute this early in the pregnancy?  They were acting like they just found out she's pregnant and she's due in 2 weeks, so they needed to hustle.  You had months, ladies!  

[NinjaPenguins]

Knowing Hope, she probably thinks she's owed a monthly baby shower until the due date.

 

Did Brooke and Ridge and Nick forget to pay attention to this girl when she was growing up? There's needy, and then there's Hope.

 

Caroline better not be tied to Rick via a mewling infant. What am I thinking? Rick is her mewling infant. Don't have a child with someone who doesn't respect you, girlfriend.

[godfreydaniels]

OMG IM SO SICK OF THE HOPE SHOW!!!!!!!

[ByTor]

I can't speak for anyone else but I'll give you the comment my 81 year old mother said. " What the hell is a diaper cake?"

I'm right there with Gudzilla's mom!

 

Regarding why Maya was there...maybe I am also having a Quinnish episode, but I swear Pam alluding to her being the one to invite Maya & that she hoped everybody would be ok with it.

 

Speaking of Quinn...she always manages to get into places.  Do these mansions not come equipped with locks on the doors/windows?

[Unwarranted]

I say fantasy, because Hope called Quinn "Mom." 

[Snaporaz]

It astounds me that this show continues to invest so much time and energy into Hope and Liam when they have ZERO chemistry together, IMO.  Liam has more chemistry with just about every other actor on the show, and it was glaringly evident when he went from a scene with Hope to a scene with Deacon, where the sparks were flying!  I've always felt Liam and Hope had more of a brother/sister vibe.  Maybe this will change with New-Hope?

 

I don't think Quinn was fantasizing, just because the show never ends with a fantasy.   I think Hope's visit to Liam was supposed to show her getting her closure and finally moving on, although RuntheTable's theory is probably more valid.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Snaporaz