S02.E05: 205

[CleoCaesar]

It's getting really tiresome to see Alison react to every hurt feeling by sleeping with someone other than her partner.  STD's must be spreading like wildfire in Montauk.

That's the only thing on my mind during the endless amounts of sex scenes on this show. No one uses protection and they all seem to fuck like bunnies.

 

Cole owned the diner and that he stole his brother's idea, and his brother's girlfriend

Owning a diner isn't a copyrighted idea. And no one can "steal" someone who doesn't want to be stolen.

[right]

I disagree.

 

Couples have arguments and sometimes blame one another for petty shit, but someone blaming all of their shit on you isn't normal behavior. That's actually toxic and could definitely be a contributing factor to divorce in some people's cases. After the honeymoon is over, you see a person's real side, but it's really supposed to be a balance not flat out dumping all you shit on your S/O and having them tolerate it. I'd never tolerate that.

 

I don't think Helen's crying contradicts what she says, I think it shows that, despite his shitty behavior, she loved him. That she is heartbroken with the dissolution of their marriage even though he was a jackass.

 

I think if you reread my post you will find we actually are agreeing.  During the first few episodes we did not see an angry Noah and Helen fighting non-stop.  They had a normal relationship, arguments about the in-laws and kids, etc.  Yet, they were still affectionate with each other and had a decent sex life for having 4 kids.  They were in the comfortable familiarity mode.  

 

Sure, when Helen was giving it to Allison on the front steps she was fixated on the negative parts of Noah, but that wasn't the whole story.  Despite what she was saying about him, her tears showed that wasn't really how she feels about him.  If you think about the previous episode when Helen was arrested and sitting in the cop car she asks Noah "why are you doing this to us?".   If Noah would come back Helen would take him back in a heart beat.  She was tearing Noah down in an effort to get Allison to back off.

[Nanrad]

I think if you reread my post you will find we actually are agreeing.  During the first few episodes we did not see an angry Noah and Helen fighting non-stop.  They had a normal relationship, arguments about the in-laws and kids, etc.  Yet, they were still affectionate with each other and had a decent sex life for having 4 kids.  They were in the comfortable familiarity mode.  

 

Sure, when Helen was giving it to Allison on the front steps she was fixated on the negative parts of Noah, but that wasn't the whole story.  Despite what she was saying about him, her tears showed that wasn't really how she feels about him.  If you think about the previous episode when Helen was arrested and sitting in the cop car she asks Noah "why are you doing this to us?".   If Noah would come back Helen would take him back in a heart beat.  She was tearing Noah down in an effort to get Allison to back off.

I don't think she'd take him back in a heartbeat, but under the right circumstances, she'd take him back. Or, at least, not right away.

 

Essentially, we are agreeing, but I think Helen made a valid observation all while showing that she still loved him. Apart of loving someone is being willing to accept the shit that comes with them. Just because Noah didn't do it all of the time, placing the blame on her for everything wrong with him, didn't mean it didn't happen to the extent that she was implying. And, we also saw the affair from his POV where Helen went from being viewed favorably to highlighting her "flaws". At the same time, we've kind of seen glimpses of this while he's been with Alison. He has her on a pedestal and their love is just the greatest to him, but he can be an asshole to her both in his POV and hers when he's moody. This is DURING their honeymoon phase. 

 

I think she giving Alison the cold, hard facts of what she got herself into. 

 

As to Helen saying "Why are you doing this to yes," I believe she is still heartbroken, but it is hard it's to be alone about investing so many years as well as having kids with another person. Also, it's harder for a woman with kids to be single dating wise than it is to be a man. Sure, Max is still in love with her, but she's still getting used to her husband leaving and semi-restructuring her life.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Nanrad

[Boundary]

 And no one can "steal" someone who doesn't want to be stolen.

 

I think Cole and Louisa connected and was the start of a relationship. But that is bound to affect Cole's relationship with his brother in a negative way, regardless of whether Scotty deserves it or not. It's not unlike people focusing on how much Noah hurt Helen while downplaying how much he connected to Alison in order to do such a drastic thing. It matter of which side one decides to emphasise. 

[Ellaria]

But I don't think Alison was fired because Yvonne felt threatened by Alison, she just wasn't filling the actual position that Yvonne needed filled. I felt sorry for Alison, but she does have poor boundaries and a trouble self-image. One of the most interesting things about this story is how often people see themselves, in their own memories, in ways that seem to reflect their self image.

 

I agree. I think that Alison was fired because she wasn't the best fit for the job. There were a lot of little things that could have annoyed a high-powered woman like Yvonne. She required a certain level of performance and wasn't getting what she wanted. (I'm not implying that Alison was incompetent; she clearly wasn't. Job performance - like everything else in this show - may be considered subjective.) Alison's poor self-image allows her only one interpretation of the course of events: sex kitten adulteress. IMO, her memories of these events reflect how she is judging herself. 

 

Somehow, this sad, wounded Alison becomes the more confident person that we see in the flashforward in the swanky apartment. She tells Noah that her schedule for the next day is "packed." It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

[GeminiDancer]

But would it be "downstate" to someone from Buffalo?

 

Probably. I don't live there. I'm in Brooklyn, so of course Cold Springs is going to be upstate for me.

[truthaboutluv]

I think if you reread my post you will find we actually are agreeing.  During the first few episodes we did not see an angry Noah and Helen fighting non-stop.  They had a normal relationship, arguments about the in-laws and kids, etc.  Yet, they were still affectionate with each other and had a decent sex life for having 4 kids.  They were in the comfortable familiarity mode.  

 

Sure, when Helen was giving it to Allison on the front steps she was fixated on the negative parts of Noah, but that wasn't the whole story.  Despite what she was saying about him, her tears showed that wasn't really how she feels about him.  If you think about the previous episode when Helen was arrested and sitting in the cop car she asks Noah "why are you doing this to us?".   If Noah would come back Helen would take him back in a heart beat.  She was tearing Noah down in an effort to get Allison to back off.

 

But I don't think Helen was saying that's all the relationship was. What she was saying is that when Noah gets unhappy and unsatisfied for whatever reason, suddenly it will only be his partner's fault. So that doesn't negate the image we saw of him and Helen at the start of the series. But that's exactly what I've noted when many used his memories to judge Helen's character.

 

That is, once Alison got in the picture and the more the affair progressed, the more negative Helen became in Noah's memories - she was critical, dismissive, a snob, etc. So once he decided he didn't want this life anymore because he'd found someone else, everything wrong in their life and marriage was her fault. Look at how Helen came across in Noah's memory of the mediation - cold, mean, dismissive of him and his writing, etc. 

 

And as noted, Alison herself sees him that way at times and this supposedly is their honeymoon period. We've had him snapping at her, basically being a jerk to her because he had a bad day with the mediation. Basically Helen's words spoke to exactly how I've felt about Noah - he doesn't own his shit. It's everyone else's fault - his domineering, stuck up wife, his evil in-laws, the oversexed waitress who tempted him away from his family, etc.

Edited November 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[blixie]

 

But I don't think Alison was fired because Yvonne felt threatened by Alison, she just wasn't filling the actual position that Yvonne needed filled.

 

I don't see why it can't be two things. It can be two things. I think Allison was always meant to be a temporary fix, she was never an appropriate hire for Yvonne, and it was job offer that was extended out of a moment of personal affinity and convenience. When Yvonne reads the book, it reveals Allison's story of her Noah as bunk, and stirs up issues Yvonne has with trusting this woman she barely knows with her business and her husband's recovery, taken together with Allison's lack of background in publishing and her casual approach to the job made it easy to fire her for both cause as well as new found distaste with her personal character. 

 

 

Owning a diner isn't a copyrighted idea.

 

Pretty sure no one was speaking in LEGAL terms, and that most likely Cole usurps Scotty's relationship with the hedge fund investor who is most likely Max, and he obviously decided to romantically pursue someone his brother was having sex with. I like Cole and even I think those are dick moves, even when directed at someone like Scotty who deserves every bit of it and more. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by blixie

[truthaboutluv]

Obviously we don't know for sure but I doubt Cole usurped the relationship with hedge fund investor guy. I really think Alison probably finally made the decision to sell her grandmother's house once she and Noah fully moved on with their relationship and possibly when she and Cole finally divorced. And she probably gave him a share of the money from the property in the divorce agreement and he simply just bought Oscar's old restaurant. 

[Irlandesa]

And he obviously decided to romantically pursue someone his brother was having sex with. I like Cole and even I think those are dick moves, even when directed at someone like Scotty who deserves every bit of it and more. 

I think the brother/brother relationship is already pretty severed.  Cole didn't even know Scotty was manager at The End out.  He found out when Luisa told him that Scotty was her boss pressuring her to sleep with her, using the fact that she was undocumented as a threat to keep her in line.   He even refers to her as a possession by telling Cole not to fuck her.  If the relationship were on the up and up, why would Scotty feel the need to make sure that doesn't happen?  I reject the notion that she's his "girlfriend," "lover" or any type of relationship freely given.  Heck, Cole suggested she sue anyway.  

 

As for the restaurant, why do I think Scotty's "idea" was a night club and not a diner?  Either way, the success of a restaurant is in the operation, not the idea. 

 

And I wouldn't want to get into business with someone prone to sexual harassment even if he were my brother.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Irlandesa

[racked]

Probably. I don't live there. I'm in Brooklyn, so of course Cold Springs is going to be upstate for me.

Heh, this conversation is reminding me of that old SATC episode where Carrie is "suffering in Suffern." To me Rockland County is a suburb of NYC, but to the writers of SATC it was in the country, and upstate.

I think the brother/brother relationship is already pretty severed.  Cole didn't even know Scotty was manager at The End out.  He found out when Luisa told him that Scotty was her boss pressuring her to sleep with her, using the fact that she was undocumented as a threat to keep her in line.   He even refers to her as a possession by telling Cole not to fuck her.  If the relationship were on the up and up, why would Scotty feel the need to make sure that doesn't happen?  I reject the notion that she's his "girlfriend," "lover" or any type of relationship freely given.  Heck, Cole suggested she sue anyway.  

 

As for the restaurant, why do I think Scotty's "idea" was a night club and not a diner?  Either way, the success of a restaurant is in the operation, not the idea.

Yeah, Cole doesn't seem to care about severing his relationship with Scotty and I don't blame him. But I don't see how he stole his idea, when Cole just bought an already existing restaurant.

[Neurochick]

I don't know why but I don't think Cole is all that innocent and blameless.  I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he turns out to be a major douche.

 

I think that Alison herself was quite confused over this as well. I don't think that she ever saw herself as a sexy 'femme fatale' and she doesn't like the stereotype. It was only Noah who saw her as a super attractive irresistible man magnet because it gave him an excuse to be unfaithful to Helen. Overall, Alison is of average figure and looks but Noah chooses to make himself less guilty if he justifies his indiscretion by claiming no man could resist Alison.

 

 

From the first episode, Noah saw Alison as this temptress.  In Noah's version of how they met at the diner, Alison had her hair down and looked real good; while in Alison's version, her hair was pulled back and she looked very average.   I think in order for Noah to not feel guilty about leaving Helen, he needs to pain Alison as a temptress, someone who "made him cheat."  I think that's what pissed Alison off.  When she told Robert about Noah, it sounded like a more emotional experience for her, while, according to the book, it was more sexual for Noah.

[truthaboutluv]

As for the restaurant, why do I think Scotty's "idea" was a night club and not a diner?

 

 

Because that's what Scotty mentioned in Cole's memory. He wanted Cole to pressure Alison to sell her grandmother's house so Cole could give him, Scotty, some of his share of the sale so he could give to some hedge fund guy who was going to start a club with him. His whole sell seemed to be that the old fashioned Montauk was going away and people were looking for more of the type of stuff they get in the city. Nothing about that restaurant we saw at the end of the episode suggested a more city oriented, club like Montauk. So yeah, can't see how Cole stole Scotty's idea. 

 

I don't know why but I don't think Cole is all that innocent and blameless.  I wouldn't be a bit surprised if he turns out to be a major douche.

 

 

I don't think anyone thinks Cole is a saint. As stated repeatedly, he is drinking and driving all the time which is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous, he was running a drug operation with his brothers, he did brandish a gun at innocent people no matter whose version of the story you believe. That said, a character doesn't have to be perfect for one to feel empathy for them and I think for a lot of viewers, they just feel a lot of empathy for Cole.

 

As many have noted before, everytime the show focuses on Alison's pain about losing Gabriel, you remember that it wasn't just her loss. In the span of however short it was, Cole lost his only child, his wife started an affair and then left him and he and his family lost their ranch and livelihood really that had been in their family for generations. 

 

I have to say, and this is not directed at any one person, but I do feel like there is almost some resentment of people liking Cole when Noah is so hated. So it's like "well Cole did this and that, so he's not perfect and why does he get a pass." Hell I remember reading about some exchange with Sarah Treem on twitter last season when she responded to someone who tweeted "Team Cole." Basically she was surprised at how many people seemed to like him.

 

But again, speaking for myself, I don't think Cole is perfect or am ignoring his mistakes. However, I am empathetic to his character where I'm not to someone like Noah for reasons I have detailed many times. I don't get the feeling that Cole blames others or doesn't own his own actions and choices. Honestly, Cole just seems much like Alison herself, in being buried in their own pain and grief. 

[SlackerInc]

Heh, this conversation is reminding me of that old SATC episode where Carrie is "suffering in Suffern." To me Rockland County is a suburb of NYC, but to the writers of SATC it was in the country, and upstate.

Ha, that's even sillier. Of course there is always going to be a fuzzy line on a question like this, but looking at the map again I see a pretty clear-cut way that IMO the division should be laid out at a minimum. There is a tapered southern portion of New York State that is kind of squeezed in between Pennsylvania and Connecticut. Everything there, that is south of the line that makes the northern borders of those two states, should be "downstate" (or at least not "upstate"). That still leaves 90% of NY to qualify as "upstate", but it would not include Cold Spring or Suffern.

[Milburn Stone]

From the first episode, Noah saw Alison as this temptress.  In Noah's version of how they met at the diner, Alison had her hair down and looked real good; while in Alison's version, her hair was pulled back and she looked very average.   I think in order for Noah to not feel guilty about leaving Helen, he needs to pain Alison as a temptress, someone who "made him cheat."

 

Interesting. This makes me wonder: Have we yet seen Allison in a "Helen POV"? We've seen them interact (or share space) a couple of times, like at Helen's front door this week and in her store last season. And also when Allison was serving drinks at Helen's parents' party and Helen treated her haughtily. And in the diner. But none of those scenes were from Helen's POV.  I'd be very interested to see what Allison looks like as Helen sees her. When Helen looks at Allison does she see an alluring temptress or a grody skank?

[blixie]

 

So yeah, can't see how Cole stole Scotty's idea.

 

Scotty's idea was to buy the Lobster Roll and turn it into a night club. Cole did not independently come up with the idea of buying the Lobster Roll, the only reason he knows it's an OPTION is because of Scotty. He did it at the direct expense of Scotty, If that isn't  bogarting the bong, I don't know what the fuck is. I think it's a dick move and I'm standing by that opinion. Which is fine, I like that Cole is super flawed, but still likable IMO, it's a trick Noah sure as shit hasn't mastered.

[Neurochick]

But again, speaking for myself, I don't think Cole is perfect or am ignoring his mistakes. However, I am empathetic to his character where I'm not to someone like Noah for reasons I have detailed many times. I don't get the feeling that Cole blames others or doesn't own his own actions and choices. Honestly, Cole just seems much like Alison herself, in being buried in their own pain and grief.

 

 

That's a very good point that both Alison and Cole were buried in their own pain and grief.  When Alison spoke to Robert about the first time she kissed Noah, she mentioned that it felt as if the grief was lifted or something like that.  I think both Alison and Cole really needed therapy to deal with the loss of their son.  Alison felt terribly responsible for his death and, according to her, her mother in law all but blamed her.   

 

As this season progresses, I really don't think Alison and Noah truly love each other.  Alison was broken, depressed after her son's death, she was searching for something to take her out of her grief and there was Noah.  Noah was just tired of his life with Helen, he was looking for something else, and there was Alison.

 

Sometimes I feel that if no one ever found out about their affair, if it would have just burned itself out on its own.

[cardigirl]

But I don't think Helen was saying that's all the relationship was. What she was saying is that when Noah gets unhappy and unsatisfied for whatever reason, suddenly it will only be his partner's fault. So that doesn't negate the image we saw of him and Helen at the start of the series. But that's exactly what I've noted when many used his memories to judge Helen's character.

 

That is, once Alison got in the picture and the more the affair progressed, the more negative Helen became in Noah's memories - she was critical, dismissive, a snob, etc. So once he decided he didn't want this life anymore because he'd found someone else, everything wrong in their life and marriage was her fault. Look at how Helen came across in Noah's memory of the mediation - cold, mean, dismissive of him and his writing, etc. 

 

And as noted, Alison herself sees him that way at times and this supposedly is their honeymoon period. We've had him snapping at her, basically being a jerk to her because he had a bad day with the mediation. Basically Helen's words spoke to exactly how I've felt about Noah - he doesn't own his shit. It's everyone else's fault - his domineering, stuck up wife, his evil in-laws, the oversexed waitress who tempted him away from his family, etc.

It's really a pattern with people who are trying to justify their behavior.  I've seen this happen over and over with long-term relationships and marriages.  One partner, for whatever reason, becomes restless, or dissatisfied, with their lot in life, and will act out.  An affair, spending wildly, buying a new car, or taking up a dangerous hobby, all in an effort to fill that 'void' within them.

 

And to feel less guilty about it, the explanation becomes about the other partner.  He/she never went to college, got fat, were bossy, didn't understand me... 

They will rewrite history with things like 'we were too young when we married' or 'I never really loved you'...

I truly loved every word of Helen's speech to Alison, because women, more than men, tend to blame themselves when a relationship falls apart, but Helen's speech showed that she's beginning to see that the fault doesn't lie with Alison being irresistible or with her being unlovable, but rather with Noah's own failings.  

Edited November 4, 2015 by cardigirl

[racked]

I don't think anyone thinks Cole is a saint. As stated repeatedly, he is drinking and driving all the time which is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous, he was running a drug operation with his brothers, he did brandish a gun at innocent people no matter whose version of the story you believe. That said, a character doesn't have to be perfect for one to feel empathy for them and I think for a lot of viewers, they just feel a lot of empathy for Cole.

Cole is a broken broken man. Noah, in comparison, doesn't seem broken. He just seems bored and unhappy. I don't hate Noah, I think he's frustrated by his own shortcomings and didn't know how to go about changing his life without completely wrecking it. But it does make him less sympathetic a character to watch, even if that sort of frustration and unhappiness should be way more relatable.

[truthaboutluv]

I think it's a dick move and I'm standing by that opinion.

 

 

And that's fine, I just politely disagree. As you said, the actual idea was to buy the establishment and turn it into a nightclub. Cole did not turn the establishment into a nightclub so what idea was stolen, buying the property? Okay then. As for doing this at the direct expense of Scotty, if everything we saw is to be believed, Scotty had no chance with his grand plan without Cole having to give him money. So Scotty essentially wasn't going to have anything unless Cole practically bullied his wife into selling her house and giving him the money. So again, in my opinion, if Cole went off to live his life and succeed using money he got from his ex-wife's property versus giving it to Scotty, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

[Palomar]

Returning home where her lovesick husband is, and sleeping with him for comfort is understandable, sure, but it's another bad choice that creates more problems for both of them.

 

 

Understandable?  Not when you are engaged to the alleged love of your life who you have turned your world upside down for.

 

Poor Alison, she's feeling like she's in limbo. She's been deserted by Noah in Cold Spring because Helen doesn't want her near the kids, Yvonne is being a bitch to he because she's a woman and she's a threat to Yvonne and Robert is being just plain creepy.

 

 

Again, the repercussions and consequences of getting involved with a married man with kids.  Hard to feel sorry for her.  Also, there is the factor that Alison lied to Yvonne about how she met Noah and as others have said, maybe she was a poor fit for the job or didn't take it seriously enough. 

 

 

But we saw Alison introducing the baby at the arraignment.  It was Cole's version, and it seemed like he was seeing the baby for the first time.

 

Even if the baby was Cole's that doesn't mean she would have even told him (or Noah for that matter).  Alison doesn't exactly think things through or consider other people's feelings.  How cruel if the baby IS Cole's and he doesn't know.  Legally it is probably Noah's.

[nilyank]

Plus I think Scott lied about the his investor and only wanting to contribute a partial percentage of the payment as a show of good faith. His investor probably is requiring Scotty to put in more money that he is telling Cole that he needs. Scotty has no money to invest and is so desperate that he is trying to get the value of Allison's house appraised from those realtors.

Edited November 4, 2015 by nilyank

[JenE4]

Too many people to quote on my phone, so I'll just make my generic comments...

Re Yvonne recognizing that Allison lied about her affair with Noah after reading the book: How? Noah presented the work as fiction and didn't use Allison's name, so I'm not understanding how Yvonne would suddenly say, "Ah, ha! This is a non-fictional account of how these two met!" Of course Allison realized it was about her, but there's no reason that I could see that Yvonne would. Noah was writing in Montauk and visiting sites and gathering information to make it believable but there's no reason why Yvonne would think the protagonist and his paramour were based on true-life events. Even when his other editor asked whether it was about Allison Noah said it was fiction. Granted, that alone could make the case that if the editor recognized truth in fiction (though he DID know the truth), maybe Yvonne would, too. Allison also spilled her guts to Robert so it's possible he went back and told Yvonne all that stuff...minus the erection part, I'd assume!

I don't think Cole stole the idea to buy the restaurant. Luisa told him that her dream is to own a restaurant, so we can presume they're married and it's Luisa Lockhart's Lobster Roll. The idea that Cole wouldn't know it was for sale if not for Scotty is irrelevant. If it's up on the market, then everyone would know it. I actually assumed that it was Oscar's bowling alley that fell through that Scotty was going to buy. Remember that storyline? Cole was protesting that he didn't want any "big city" changes to his little town. So along that vein then, yes, I could see that if Scotty wanted to open a nightclub in town then Cole would be totally against that.

What makes Cole "rootable" despite his bad behavior (drug dealing, drunk driving, gun wielding) is that at the heart of it he truly loves Allison. We saw that clearly in this episode. He would do anything for her and take her back in a heartbeat without a second thought. He would completely forgive her. Meanwhile everyone else is just lashing out and thinking how they could hurt each other and holding grudges, etc. I think the acting out in pain is more realistic--especially when divorcing, so I can see where Helen is coming from. Yet, after this episode I can't get past Allison's behavior. And Noah is just a self-absorbed ass all around. I wouldn't say I'm Team Cole, but this episode definitely made him more relatable and I was "awing" over him like a cute puppy when he told Allison how he sees her and so tenderly held her.

[Neurochick]

What makes Cole "rootable" despite his bad behavior (drug dealing, drunk driving, gun wielding) is that at the heart of it he truly loves Allison.

 

 

In my world, driving drunk, wielding a gun and drug dealing really isn't rootable behavior for anyone, no matter who they love.  

Edited November 4, 2015 by Neurochick

[lovinbob]

Wasn't Oscar's original idea to create some sort of entertainment complex? I'm wondering if that's the actual idea that Cole "stole." I must say I wasn't sorry to see Oscar sporting a nametag and pouring coffee at Lockhart's Lobster Roll.

 

The whole "upstate" conversation could go on endlessly. There are people who think that anything north of the city is upstate. It's not technically true but it's a matter of perception, and there is no definitive answer.

[Constantinople]

I don't think anyone thinks Cole is a saint. As stated repeatedly, he is drinking and driving all the time which is incredibly irresponsible and dangerous, he was running a drug operation with his brothers, he did brandish a gun at innocent people no matter whose version of the story you believe. That said, a character doesn't have to be perfect for one to feel empathy for them and I think for a lot of viewers, they just feel a lot of empathy for Cole.

I'm not even sure how much empathy I have for Cole. Cole's drunk/drug driving should upset me more, but it doesn't really bother me. I feel as if the writers are jerking me around with this just to make it seem as if Cole is more likely to have killed Scotty given Cole's indifference to automobile safety.

But I don't really care about the mystery of who killed Scotty. So I don't much care about a character's behavior that makes it more or less likely the person turned Scotty into street pizza.

I'm watching a show called The Affair, not The DWI or Vehicular Manslaughter. That's the same reason I soured on The Hour. I wanted to watch a workplace drama about a 1950s BBC news show, not James Bond (now that I think about it, Dominic West played a self-important, adulterous douche bag in that show too).

Of course, people die as a result of affairs. Investigation Discovery has plenty of programming dedicated to the proposition that Affair = Homicide. It's just not something I want to see here. I especially don't care if it turns out that Noah is covering for Whitney, even if Whitney didn't do it but Noah thinks she did.

[JenE4]

In my world, driving drunk, wielding a gun and drug dealing really isn't rootable behavior for anyone, no matter who they love.

That's my point, too. He's done all of these terrible, illegal things but he's the only character that shows true emotional vulnerability, so when he's having one of those moments it's easy to just feel empathetic with him right then. That doesn't mean I'm all, "It's okay, Coley-Woley, you drive drunk all you want, you poor wounded soul!" That's not good and HE's going to kill someone driving at this rate! But when he's having a moment with Allison, that's the only pure love and acceptance I've seen on this show, IMO.

[right]

It's really a pattern with people who are trying to justify their behavior.  I've seen this happen over and over with long-term relationships and marriages.  One partner, for whatever reason, becomes restless, or dissatisfied, with their lot in life, and will act out.  An affair, spending wildly, buying a new car, or taking up a dangerous hobby, all in an effort to fill that 'void' within them.

 

And to feel less guilty about it, the explanation becomes about the other partner.  He/she never went to college, got fat, were bossy, didn't understand me... 

They will rewrite history with things like 'we were too young when we married' or 'I never really loved you'...

I truly loved every word of Helen's speech to Alison, because women, more than men, tend to blame themselves when a relationship falls apart, but Helen's speech showed that she's beginning to see that the fault doesn't lie with Alison being irresistible or with her being unlovable, but rather with Noah's own failings.  

 

Yes, this is how I see it too.  But I also think Helen is taking the same route when she now recounts all of Noah's terrible traits.  Prior to him cheating on her with Allison she must have been okay with it or felt his positives outweighed his negatives.  Now, she seems to be saying he's always been a huge piece of shit and she's happy to be rid of him.  I think this is a defense mechanism to help her cope with loosing him to Allison.  I would maintain that both of these couples would still be married if Noah and Allison had not made the decision to cheat.  Both marriages had problems prior to the affair, but we saw nothing that would indicate they were all looking to get out of their marriages.  One decision can drastically alter the lives of many and Noah and Allison are trying to justify their selfishness.

[RedInk]

I admit that I give Cole a pass on a lot of his awful behavior because I find him to be the most sympathetic character. That's not right, but I can't help it. I would argue that he's lost the most, but he isn't spiteful, or making excuses for himself, or a martyr. He's just the walking wounded. He and Helen are spiraling from something that has been done to them, outside of their control, where Noah and Allison are suffering from the bad choices they've made themselves.

By the way, I keep coming back to this board because it's just as interesting to me to read how varied our opinions of the characters are as it is to watch the different POVs on the show! This is not meant as an insult at all, but I'm dumbfounded when I read that someone likes Allison or excuses anything Noah does. On the flip side, I actually like Helen a lot, which seems to be an unpopular opinion.

[truthaboutluv]

Actually I definitely think Cole and Alison might have still gotten a divorce even if she hadn't met Noah and I've felt this way from last season. The difference between the two marriages was striking. It was pretty obvious that Cole and Alison were already miles apart emotionally long before she met Noah. And the fact is they did try therapy as someone suggested above. Cole mentioned it during one of their arguments - that they'd done grief therapy, read books about grief, tried couple's counseling, etc. Cole and Alison came across as the many couples one hears about who pull away from each other in the wake of that type of tragedy, rather than drawing strength from each other.

 

Alison was buried in grief and Cole didn't know how to make it better and was frustrated because of that and judging by their major fight in the season finale, on some level they both did blame each other a little bit for Gabriel's death. I don't think they would have ever been able to get past his loss to have the kind of marriage they once had again. Noah and Helen were the ones whose marriage in my opinion seemed fine. Did they have stresses and their issues like any married couple, sure. But when we first meet them, Noah and Helen came across as a team, as two people who genuinely loved and was comfortable with each other. 

 

This is why I feel like Helen likely saw the divorce and her marriage ending as some kind of whiplash because she didn't see it coming, whereas I don't think Cole was as shocked. Hurt by it, sure, but truly stunned not really. And it's probably why he and Alison seem like they get to a less contentious place as opposed to Noah and Helen. Because the fact is in many ways their marriage was already broken long before Noah came in the picture and I imagine Cole probably eventually gets to a place of realizing that. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Neurochick]

This is why I feel like Helen likely saw the divorce and her marriage ending as some kind of whiplash because she didn't see it coming, whereas I don't think Cole was as shocked. Hurt by it, sure, but truly stunned not really. And it's probably why he and Alison seem like they get to a less contentious place as opposed to Noah and Helen. Because the fact is in many ways their marriage was already broken long before Noah came in the picture and I imagine Cole probably eventually gets to a place of realizing that.

 

 

That's a good point.  I always thought they might have gotten back together had Alison not met Noah, but maybe they would have divorced anyway, weighed down by their grief.  

 

Noah and Helen felt like this:  There's something wrong.  Helen doesn't think anything is wrong; Noah thinks something's wrong but doesn't bother to verbalize this to Helen, hence Helen thinks nothing's wrong.  I think Helen would have been open to therapy, had Noah suggested it.  I don't like Helen, I get an entitled, rich girl vibe from her, but I really believe she had no idea things were off with Noah.

[SlackerInc]

By the way, I keep coming back to this board because it's just as interesting to me to read how varied our opinions of the characters are as it is to watch the different POVs on the show! This is not meant as an insult at all, but I'm dumbfounded when I read that someone likes Allison or excuses anything Noah does. On the flip side, I actually like Helen a lot, which seems to be an unpopular opinion.

Likewise, on all counts, except that I don't really dislike Helen most of the time.

[RedheadZombie]

Even if the baby was Cole's that doesn't mean she would have even told him (or Noah for that matter).  Alison doesn't exactly think things through or consider other people's feelings.  How cruel if the baby IS Cole's and he doesn't know.  Legally it is probably Noah's.

 

Yes, of course.  But that wasn't really my point.  I was responding to a poster who stated they wanted the baby to be Cole's, and that he deserved a child after his loss.   My point was that Cole showed no sign of thinking the baby was his.

 

What makes Cole "rootable" despite his bad behavior (drug dealing, drunk driving, gun wielding) is that at the heart of it he truly loves Allison. We saw that clearly in this episode. He would do anything for her and take her back in a heartbeat without a second thought. He would completely forgive her. Meanwhile everyone else is just lashing out and thinking how they could hurt each other and holding grudges, etc. I think the acting out in pain is more realistic--especially when divorcing, so I can see where Helen is coming from. Yet, after this episode I can't get past Allison's behavior. And Noah is just a self-absorbed ass all around. I wouldn't say I'm Team Cole, but this episode definitely made him more relatable and I was "awing" over him like a cute puppy when he told Allison how he sees her and so tenderly held her.

 

 

In my world, driving drunk, wielding a gun and drug dealing really isn't rootable behavior for anyone, no matter who they love.  

 

I wonder if they made a mistake with casting such a sympathetic actor in JJ.  I felt similarly in the character of Libby in Masters of Sex.  The two mains are carrying on an affair, and I found the wife too sympathetic to get past it.

 

I've never seen JJ in anything, and felt little about Cole until the scene where he holds the gun to his head.  I'm really having a hard time separating that sympathy from how I'm interpreting his actions.  I have to remind myself about the drunk driving (Noah drove once after drinking and people were up in arms), drugs, and gun.  I wonder if anyone else experiences the same - even if unconscious.  I think it's the same with RW.  She portrays Alison in such a way that I can't help but feel for, apparently regardless of what she does.  Conversely, I'm left cold by MW (perhaps because she dominated ER), and I'm experiencing very little sympathy for Helen.  I think Helen's whole drunken/high escapade was top notch acting by MW (and how courageous for a fifty-year old woman to hang it all out like that).  I thought Maura really went for it, and was willing to be purposely unattractive - something I think Ruth West, and even Claire Danes does very well.  Yet I'm still not overly sympathetic of her.  It was wise to have Max act like such an ass, it made me side with Helen in that situation.

 

So I'm completely invested in this show and happy to go along for the ride.  It's painful and upsetting at times, but I love that all four leads are very flawed (even damaged) people.  I find all of them rootable at times (including Noah), and I think the show needs to continue tangled up in this way.  I hope the series concludes with all parties happy, but I don't think the show will survive any

happiness until then.  I finding it fascinating how I react to these characters.  I would never have guessed I would dislike Helen so much and yet feel protective of Alison.  I think people are defensive here, but that's only natural.  If everyone praised Alison and Noah, I'm sure I'd be more likely to point out their shortcomings.  I'm forced to confront my own biases.  It occurs to me that Connie Britton really irritated me on AHS, and did for quite a while on Nashville.  She's similar to MW, in that she portrays a woman of a certain age who's very confident in herself, possibly borderline arrogant, and born into wealth.  I know I'm a bit of an inverse snob, and I almost always sympathize with female characters that are dark, tortured, and even fragile.  I read the entire Karin Slaughter Grant County series without realizing I was supposed to dislike Lena - I loved that imperfect character.  Oh well.

[HumblePi]

I really did enjoy Helen giving Allison the verbal beat down outside her home.  However, I don't think Helen's description of the future Noah is really any different than any of us can expect in a relationship.  Every relationship has the "honeymoon" phase where people are on their best behavior.  But, sooner or later things change and we start commenting on those pet peeves that annoy the shit out of us.  Also, Helen breaking down and crying kind of contradicts her negative take on Noah.  If she really felt he was a huge burden that only blamed her for all of his failures, she should be laughing that Allison has taken the asshole of her hands.  When you really love someone you even love their shitty sides.

well, maybe you don't love their shitty sides, but you forgive them and love them despite it.

[Boundary]

Noah and Helen felt like this:  There's something wrong.  Helen doesn't think anything is wrong; Noah thinks something's wrong but doesn't bother to verbalize this to Helen, hence Helen thinks nothing's wrong.  I think Helen would have been open to therapy, had Noah suggested it.  I don't like Helen, I get an entitled, rich girl vibe from her, but I really believe she had no idea things were off with Noah.

 

I think she had an idea but didn't really take it seriously. When your mother is completely and mercilessly slagging off your husband to your own daughter, with the said husband clearly in earshot and all you do is give a token protest, then you wonder why one day he snaps? I don't buy Helen's innocence. Her house was bought under a Trust; she basically scoffed at his public teacher ethos whilst squirrelling her own family's wealth out of his reach. When she was giving Alison the mouthful, all I could think was Noah confessed, otherwise Helen was none the wiser. Besides the loss of libido, which incidentally affected her needs, Helen probably would never have cared about what Noah was up to.

[taragel]

 I read the entire Karin Slaughter Grant County series without realizing I was supposed to dislike Lena - I loved that imperfect character.  Oh well.

 

Off-topic but I had to jump in to say MEEEE TOOOOO. She's one of my fave fictional antiheroines of all time! Loved Lena and was so glad she finally came to a place of peace in her final scene in UNSEEN and let go of needing Sara's forgiveness or approval. I thought everyone's insistence that she was bad news was such bullshit. She did make bad decisions, yes, but there were a lot of things that weren't of her doing/weren't really her fault, in my opinion. 

 

Okay but back to the topic at hand. Man, this show is so baffling. They always zig when you expect them to zag. How sad (though thoroughly understandable) that Alison and Cole reconnected that way though I can't help but think it was awfully self-absorbed of Alison not to think about how going to the house, climbing in his bed and asking him to cuddle her (then going through with the sex he initiated) would emotionally affect her ex-husband. She knows she holds all the emotional cards in that relationship, and even though she's hurting over the perception of her, it would have been nice if she could've used some impulse control and backed away from that. Nothing good will come of that, and I hope to hell the baby is not his and that she's keeping that knowledge from him and he hasn't met his daughter until more than a year after her birth--that would be too, too cruel. I thought it was very interesting that Cole's POV was the first time you actually heard Alison talk about herself candidly and what she feels and what she thinks at length. Not even in her own POV does she do that.

 

This was also maybe the first scene of the whole show that felt actually romantic, there was actual kindness and bonding conversations before the lovemaking (not sex). Why choose to write it that way when nothing else is framed or written that way, including the great love affair of Noah and Alison? I don't know, the choices the writers make are very confounding. 

 

I thought Cole's interactions with Luisa were strained and awkward. It didn't really give me hope that their eventual wedding is a great love match either, sadly. But who knows -- maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to see someone be happy in their damn relationship.

 

The whole Yvonne and Robert thing was weird (I guess because we're in Alison's paranoid POV). If Yvonne were basically the publisher of Random House (which would be her IRL equivalent), I really don't think she'd assume what he'd written was basically gospel truth. She would totally know that writers exaggerate a kernel of truth into a full-blown storyline. Just reading the book didn't seem like enough to turn her attitude on a dime. Because she was cold to Alison from the moment she walked in. All the other stuff -- like her unprofessional daisy dukes and not taking notes were just reactions to her already being annoyed and finding fault with Alison. (Although it was ludicrous to think she could ever be a fitting assistant to Yvonne--PT for Robert, sure, but not a professional assistant to someone like Yvonne.) My husband also thought they were being really cagy and manipulative with it and said "We already know Yvonne would have no qualms about telling her to fuck right off, so why did they make Robert be the one to fire her?" Man had a good point.

 

It's too bad really because I liked the supportive relationship they were building with Robert. I don't think that he got a boner was such a big deal either. I think he could've easily shrugged that off if he didn't have Yvonne already pushing him to fire her for REASONS.

 

Helen's speech was great--but it pisses me off knowing that, from what we've seen so far, she's wrong. Noah does stick it out and apparently happily so with Alison. Meh. 

 

At this point, I think the resolution of Scotty's murder should be a group effort and everyone should take turns running him over with their cars.

[chocolatine]

Her house was bought under a Trust; she basically scoffed at his public teacher ethos whilst squirrelling her own family's wealth out of his reach. 

 

Trusts are usually set up by parents for their children, so Helen's parents are the ones keeping the family money out of Noah's reach, not Helen herself. And there's nothing inherently wrong with protecting family money. I also didn't get the sense that Helen was scoffing at Noah's job; she wanted a lifestyle he couldn't provide, so she paid for it out of her trust. We know that Noah is not opposed to having nice things - in the present-day scenes, he and Alison are living in a gorgeous apartment, he's driving a luxury car vs. the family minivan he had with Helen, and he and Alison are both well dressed. He just doesn't like it when someone else provides the nice things. I also felt last season, while Helen's parents were definitely condescending to him, he could have just swallowed his ego a little and refused to engage, instead of escalating to screaming fights in front of his children.

[lovinbob]

I wonder if they made a mistake with casting such a sympathetic actor in JJ.  ...

 

I've never seen JJ in anything, and felt little about Cole until the scene where he holds the gun to his head.  I'm really having a hard time separating that sympathy from how I'm interpreting his actions.  I have to remind myself about the drunk driving (Noah drove once after drinking and people were up in arms), drugs, and gun.  I wonder if anyone else experiences the same - even if unconscious.  I think it's the same with RW.  She portrays Alison in such a way that I can't help but feel for, apparently regardless of what she does.  Conversely, I'm left cold by MW (perhaps because she dominated ER), and I'm experiencing very little sympathy for Helen.  I think Helen's whole drunken/high escapade was top notch acting by MW (and how courageous for a fifty-year old woman to hang it all out like that).  I thought Maura really went for it, and was willing to be purposely unattractive - something I think Ruth West, and even Claire Danes does very well.  Yet I'm still not overly sympathetic of her.  It was wise to have Max act like such an ass, it made me side with Helen in that situation.

I'm not trying to be a nitpicking jerk but I do want to clarify, because I was confused for a moment. The Helen character is played by Maura Tierney. The Alison character is played by Ruth Wilson. Dominic West plays Noah.

 

And i think you're right about Joshua Jackson. He is such a likable actor. I haven't seen him in much besides this and Dawson's Creek, but he completely stole that show from the guy who was supposed to be the lead. Cole has done plenty that's wrong but overall, I find him to be such a romantic and captivating figure. (Could it be I have a thing for damaged men? Don't answer that.)

[Neurochick]

I'm not trying to be a nitpicking jerk but I do want to clarify, because I was confused for a moment. The Helen character is played by Maura Tierney. The Alison character is played by Ruth Wilson. Dominic West plays Noah.

 

And i think you're right about Joshua Jackson. He is such a likable actor. I haven't seen him in much besides this and Dawson's Creek, but he completely stole that show from the guy who was supposed to be the lead. Cole has done plenty that's wrong but overall, I find him to be such a romantic and captivating figure. (Could it be I have a thing for damaged men? Don't answer that.)

 

I think your last sentence on parenthesis, says a lot.  I think many women have a soft spot for guys who seem sweet but damaged, "oh, I'll give him the love he deserves," we think.  However, that shit works in literature and on TV, but not in real life

Edited November 5, 2015 by Neurochick

[cardigirl]

 How sad (though thoroughly understandable) that Alison and Cole reconnected that way though I can't help but think it was awfully self-absorbed of Alison not to think about how going to the house, climbing in his bed and asking him to cuddle her (then going through with the sex he initiated) would emotionally affect her ex-husband. 

 

This was also maybe the first scene of the whole show that felt actually romantic, there was actual kindness and bonding conversations before the lovemaking (not sex). Why choose to write it that way when nothing else is framed or written that way, including the great love affair of Noah and Alison? I don't know, the choices the writers make are very confounding. 

 

 

Helen's speech was great--but it pisses me off knowing that, from what we've seen so far, she's wrong. Noah does stick it out and apparently happily so with Alison. Meh. 

Loved your post, and wanted to address these sections!

 

First, I totally agree that the scene between Alison and Cole was probably the most romantic thing shown so far.  I think there is still so much caring there.  I dunno, I just liked the scene.  

 

As for whether or not Noah and Alison will remain married happily ever after, well, we have NOT been shown that. We've just been shown that they are together at the time of his arrest.  

 

I've got a number of friends whose husbands left them after 20+ years, moved on with their affair partners, got married, and it fizzled in 3 years.  It's a distinct possibility that happens often.

[taragel]

Loved your post, and wanted to address these sections!

 

First, I totally agree that the scene between Alison and Cole was probably the most romantic thing shown so far.  I think there is still so much caring there.  I dunno, I just liked the scene.  

 

As for whether or not Noah and Alison will remain married happily ever after, well, we have NOT been shown that. We've just been shown that they are together at the time of his arrest.  

 

I've got a number of friends whose husbands left them after 20+ years, moved on with their affair partners, got married, and it fizzled in 3 years.  It's a distinct possibility that happens often.

 

Thanks! I know, it's weird that, arguably, they started in a far less healthy place than Noah and Helen's relationship, yet of all the POVs, only in Cole's do the married people seem to still feel some amount of love, compassion, and kindness about their spouse of many, many years. I think that's why I believe his POVs--it makes sense to me that you would still have strong feelings of warmth even after a betrayal to someone you just spent 10/15/20 years with. 

 

I always forget what the timeline is in the present. The baby's what? 1 and a half or 2 years old at the time of the trial? So they seem to be able to weather about 3 years together at that point (10 months of pregnancy + 1.5 or 2 years of baby rearing) and still be pretty happy and lovey-dovey. But it's certainly possible that they break down at 7 years or 10 years or whatever. I'm bummed we likely won't get to see it though and be satisfied, unless there's big time jumping happening. Or maybe the trial tears them apart--although I think that's unlikely unless they reveal the baby ISN'T Noah's kid. They seem to want to validate the idea that these two are soulmates and destined to be together in press for the show.

 

It's all speculation though, who knows what this crazy show will do.

[SlackerInc]

Per the New York Times, Putnam County (including Cold Spring) does not qualify as upstate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/nyregion/what-area-is-considered-upstate-new-york.html?_r=0

"Albany’s working definition of upstate New York is based on what lies outside the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s commuter rail area. Besides New York City and Long Island, it excludes Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess Counties."

[GeminiDancer]

Per the New York Times, Putnam County (including Cold Spring) does not qualify as upstate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/nyregion/what-area-is-considered-upstate-new-york.html?_r=0

"Albany’s working definition of upstate New York is based on what lies outside the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s commuter rail area. Besides New York City and Long Island, it excludes Westchester, Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess Counties."

 

It's not that serious.

 

 

This was also maybe the first scene of the whole show that felt actually romantic, there was actual kindness and bonding conversations before the lovemaking (not sex).

 

Truer words were never spoken. I just never get that sense of connection between Noah and Alison. In fact, I wonder if RW even likes kissing DW.

[Redcookie]

Lurker coming up for air. Re: Helen's hair. When she left the hairdresser's chair she had LOTS of foils scattered throughout her head. This episode, her "highlights" were only on one side. What? The hairdresser didn't put bleach on those other foils? That really bothered me.

 

And I think the reason's for Allison's firing was clearly because "What's her name" was irritated with everything about Allison after delving into the manuscript. It had nothing to do with writer-in-waiting. That was just a quick excuse they came up with. And "What's her Name" sent her "somewhat" kinder other half do the dirty work....and he had already done his own dirty work earlier.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Redcookie

[RedheadZombie]

I'm not trying to be a nitpicking jerk but I do want to clarify, because I was confused for a moment. The Helen character is played by Maura Tierney. The Alison character is played by Ruth Wilson. Dominic West plays Noah.

 

And i think you're right about Joshua Jackson. He is such a likable actor. I haven't seen him in much besides this and Dawson's Creek, but he completely stole that show from the guy who was supposed to be the lead. Cole has done plenty that's wrong but overall, I find him to be such a romantic and captivating figure. (Could it be I have a thing for damaged men? Don't answer that.)

 

Thank you, I know this.  In my post RW = Ruth Wilson, I didn't mention Noah, and MW = Maura Tierney (for some reason, I persist in thinking she's Maura West - a soap actress). 

 

ETA:  I have West on the brain.  Clearly I needed the correction!

Edited November 5, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[LoveLeigh]

I tried to find a post about this, but couldn't. When Henry (when he was "firing" her) said to Alison, "I think you know why" what was he talking about? Was it because Yvonne read Noah's book and made some connection that she didn't like? Yvonne is a book publisher. What was the big shocker? 

[RedheadZombie]

I always forget what the timeline is in the present. The baby's what? 1 and a half or 2 years old at the time of the trial? So they seem to be able to weather about 3 years together at that point (10 months of pregnancy + 1.5 or 2 years of baby rearing) and still be pretty happy and lovey-dovey. But it's certainly possible that they break down at 7 years or 10 years or whatever. I'm bummed we likely won't get to see it though and be satisfied, unless there's big time jumping happening. Or maybe the trial tears them apart--although I think that's unlikely unless they reveal the baby ISN'T Noah's kid. They seem to want to validate the idea that these two are soulmates and destined to be together in press for the show.

 

It's all speculation though, who knows what this crazy show will do.

 

I feel like they're being deliberately vague, and I dislike the "who's the daddy" storyline they seem to be setting up. I think it's just a tease because the writers seem to know that much of the audience dislikes Alison, but roots for Cole.  So Alison keeping a child from Cole would turn off many.  They did it on Nashville, but the bio dad was an out of control alcoholic.

 

Regarding the baby, I thought she looked about nine months old.  It's hard to gauge because they most likely just cast the most photogenic and compliant baby (or twins).

 

Trusts are usually set up by parents for their children, so Helen's parents are the ones keeping the family money out of Noah's reach, not Helen herself. And there's nothing inherently wrong with protecting family money. I also didn't get the sense that Helen was scoffing at Noah's job; she wanted a lifestyle he couldn't provide, so she paid for it out of her trust. We know that Noah is not opposed to having nice things - in the present-day scenes, he and Alison are living in a gorgeous apartment, he's driving a luxury car vs. the family minivan he had with Helen, and he and Alison are both well dressed. He just doesn't like it when someone else provides the nice things. I also felt last season, while Helen's parents were definitely condescending to him, he could have just swallowed his ego a little and refused to engage, instead of escalating to screaming fights in front of his children.

 

I'm lucky enough not to have toxic people like Bruce and Margaret in my life, but I imagine you can only swallow so much before it spills over in front of the children.  Twenty years of those two - and Margaret Jr. and Margaret III, and I'd be driven to murder. Yes, yes, it's Noah's version and he's a big liar face.  But Helen's parents (and Whitney) come off just as bad in her version.  I guess the argument is Noah should never have married Helen if his in-laws treated him this way.  Maybe Helen should have stood up for her husband and told her parents to back off, or perhaps she felt the same way, so let them be the bad guys.  I don't know.  Helen seemed to have her eye on the prize, and perhaps she feared alienating her parents and the millions she would inherit at their deaths.  One of the reasons I do fault Helen in how her parents treated Noah, is that she showed no fear or intimidation around her parents.  She didn't seem like the poor little rich girl who didn't get enough love as a child.  I would have respected Helen more if she just told that toxic duo to fuck off - at least once. 

[briochetwist]

I tried to find a post about this, but couldn't. When Henry (when he was "firing" her) said to Alison, "I think you know why" what was he talking about? Was it because Yvonne read Noah's book and made some connection that she didn't like? Yvonne is a book publisher. What was the big shocker? 

I took it to mean that maybe Yvonne also knew about the sex in the pool and that along with reading the book, the unprofessionalism, the visit from the batshit crazy teenager, well, maybe enough was enough.

[molshoop]

 

One of the reasons I do fault Helen in how her parents treated Noah, is that she showed no fear or intimidation around her parents.  She didn't seem like the poor little rich girl who didn't get enough love as a child.  I would have respected Helen more if she just told that toxic duo to fuck off - at least once.

 

                 You really nailed one of my main reasons for disliking Helen.

 

                  And why do they have to spend 3 months there every year, when no one wants to be

                  there except for Whitney?  Wouldn't two weeks be plenty, or does Helen feel obligated

                  to serve her time so she gets the big pay off ?

 

                  Saying that her parents will never change, so no one should pick fights is just so

                  pathetically passive.

 

                 Helen must surely see that her mother just reinforces Whitney's worst traits. If she thinks

                 Noah should shut up and let himself be humiliated because he's an adult, doesn't she

                 at least want to protect her daughter from her toxic grandmother. 

 

                 I think Helen chooses to be oblivious to the damage being done so she can tell

                 herself she is a great wife and mother with a happy life.  Then if things go wrong, she

                 holds no responsibility.

 

                 Helen is my least favorite of the four, but then I think about who raised her and remind

                 myself that she could have turned out a lot worse.

 

                 And before someone asks, No, I don't think she "deserves" to be cheated on.  I also

                 don't think she deserves some wonderful life.  She'll never have to worry about money, which

                 already sets her apart from most people.  I would love to have that stress lifted off of my

                 daily life. And the options that money give you is a luxury she takes for granted. 

                

              

[bunnywithanaxe]

on reflection I realize I have not touched Cole's encounter with Allison, and that is because I have a bad bad feeling about it, based on his rosy picture of his last run in with her versus her unsettling one. and I agree that just because Allison is a flake we should take his version of things as gospel. At best he was really unwise in turning the invitation to cuddle into sex. At worst...well I have a feeling we are going to get an Allison flashback on this.

If you combine the two viewpoints when Cole was waving around the axe last time they met, we have one guy who doesn't know how menacing he is when he is drunk, and one woman who is very bad at executing a firm "get the fuck out of here".