S09.E06: The Woman Who Lived

[Chip]

England, 1651. A deadly highwayman known only as 'The Nightmare' plagues the dark streets of London, his fire-breathing accomplice by his side. There's something clearly more than human here, and that includes the loot as much as the outlaws. Who are these creatures, and are they enemies to be fought, or friends who might possibly save the Doctor from certain doom on the gallows?

[ApathyMonger]

The climax of the episode, with the use of the second device, was a bit too neat, but otherwise I enjoyed it. I wonder if we'll see Rufus Hound's character again.

 

And I guess one of the remaining episodes is Clara-centric, without much Doctor?

[alrightokay]

I thought it was fantastic--much better than last week because Maisie Williams was given much more to do, and she did it all so well.  And Capaldi was wonderful here--grave and compassionate during the long, thought-provoking conversations.  The discussions of immortality were so powerful because they shed light on the Doctor's loneliness, especially Twelve's.  I also loved Sam Swift, who seemed like such a throw-away character at first but then became crucial for teaching Ashildr the importance of loving life.  Finally, the coda with Clara was quite moving.  Except for an unbelievable villain and some silliness in the action sequences, this was one of the best episodes ever, I think.  Nice moments: the Doctor's willingness to pun and banter (despite his dislike of these things) to save Swift from hanging; the Captain Jack reference.  Great visual joke: the Doctor's "Wanted" poster, with his huge, fluffy hair.

[John Potts]

Well I hated it! OK, that's too strong - I was bored by it. The idea that somebody might view immortality as a curse might be an interesting one - if it hasn't been a Who staple since (at least) The Five Doctors and a recurring theme of modern Who. Though I did like the fact that she was somebody who did her best to save people as she went through life, despite seeing them as mayflies. Though really, if it was such a mistake to make her immortal (and yes, loved the Captain Jack reference) is making Sam Swift immortal too really such a good idea?

 

Though I mainly found myself wondering just how many times she might have come across the Doctor over the years, assuming she stayed in Britain - you'd have The Meddling Monk (One) in 1066, The Crusades  (also One, IIRC) in around 1100, The King's Demons (Five) in 1215 and the one with "The Malice" whose title escapes me (also Five) which would be roughly contemporary with this. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few!

[Llywela]

Though I mainly found myself wondering just how many times she might have come across the Doctor over the years, assuming she stayed in Britain - you'd have The Meddling Monk (One) in 1066, The Crusades  (also One, IIRC) in around 1100, The King's Demons (Five) in 1215 and the one with "The Malice" whose title escapes me (also Five) which would be roughly contemporary with this. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few!

The Crusade didn't take place in Britain - it was set in the Holy Land, during the Crusades, hence the title. ;-) The Fifth Doctor adventure you're thinking of (with the Malus) is The Awakening.

[penguinnj]

That was very good- still digesting, but very moving.  Guess he fixed the sunglasses, which I'm still not liking.

Loved that we see some of the Doctor without the companions and with other people.  11 spent a lot of time alone or making other friends- i.e. Ridell from Dinosaurs in Space-, and I always thought it would be interesting to play around with those gaps.

[John Potts]

I actually didn't mind the sonic sunglasses, because they actually worked as (presumably) IR goggles (or something more technobabbly).

 

Llywela The Crusade didn't take place in Britain - it was set in the Holy Land, during the Crusades, hence the title. ;-)

 

I thought it was about Richard setting out on crusade, but I haven't seen it (obviously!). Though I may be confusing it with Robin Hood, which went to the Holy Land between episodes, because it was that sort of show. Any others (since clearly your Who-nerdery is greater than mine!)?

[alrightokay]

Any others (since clearly your Who-nerdery is greater than mine!)?

Ooh, ooh!  (Raises hand to prove Who-nerdery)  How about "The Shakespeare Code," which would have taken place not too long before this episode (at least in Ashildr's timeline)?   That episode had "witches," and Ashildr herself was accused of being a witch--maybe she helped to inspire Shakespeare's Macbeth?  :)

[Lokiberry]

I had an epiphany last week: I just don't like Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. I used up a lot of venom on Clara, and she is a HUGE part of the problem; but, with or without her, I was never going to warm to 12.

 

However, I did really enjoy this episode. Maisie Williams as Ashildr/Lady Me was the main reason. What a rich and compelling character writer Catherine Tregenna created! Me seemed enveloped in loss and melancholy (made more poignant by her inability to remember much of her long life); while at the same time, full of adventure. Oh, how I wish the planned spin off was about her, instead of some dopey school kids! (If MW could spare the time from Game of Thrones, that is.)

 

Yet more hints of Clara's impending and "heartbreaking" death. I should be happy, but I suspect Capaldi will also leave after the specials or whatever they're planning to do in 2016, so I'll probably never know for sure if I would have liked 12 if he'd had a decent companion.

 

8/10 for Maisie Willaims.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Lokiberry

[John Potts]

Yeah, I should have said that while I disliked the episode, I thought Maisie Williams was probably the best thing in it. Though if we never get another "Bickering in the face of danger" (which we got twice here!) I'll be grateful.

 

And on the subject of Doctor Who adventures Ashildur might have heard of, although I'm uncertain the exact date, Silver Nemesis (Five) featured a time travelling witch (Lady Pernfors, IIRC) from around this time and Robot of Sherwood (Twelve) would have taken place sometime in the 13th century (though I'd almost completely blotted that from my memory). There's also The Romans and The Aztecs (both One) which would be chronologically prior to this, but she'd be unlikely to hear about them as they happened too far away.

[elle]

Doctor Who series 9: geeky spots in The Woman Who Lived

 

[catrox14]

OMG OMG they mentioned Jack!!! The entire episode I was like 'godsdammit The Doctor already knows about an immortal!!! He's out there somewhere...

And then he name dropped him and I am beside myself.

[WatchrTina]

I dislike the idea that The Doctor, having made Ashildr immortal, would fail to check on her within, oh I don't know, the next 100 years or so.  He'd really wait 800 years?  No wait -- he wasn't checking in on her at all, it was just a coincidence that he ran into her.  Meh.  I didn't like that.  It seemed quite callous.

[Lantern7]

That was fun, once you get past the agony of not dying and losing your humanity. Apparently, you can get it back eventually. Here's hoping Ashildr is more friend than foe. Then again, her lurking at Coal Hill Elementary could mean the end of Clara. Here's hoping, right?

 

Also: The logic about Swift not being immortal roughly equates to River burning out her regenerative cycle in "Let's Kill Hitler." At least that's what it felt like to me. And did anybody else think of the cat guy as "Lion-O"?

[catrox14]

I dislike the idea that The Doctor, having made Ashildr immortal, would fail to check on her within, oh I don't know, the next 100 years or so.  He'd really wait 800 years?  No wait -- he wasn't checking in on her at all, it was just a coincidence that he ran into her.  Meh.  I didn't like that.  It seemed quite callous.

It's not the first time he abandoned an immortal see Jack Harkness. If 12 still gets weirded out about an immortal being 'wrong' like he did with Jack then it does keep with his character in that respect.

[alrightokay]

It's not the first time he abandoned an immortal see Jack Harkness. If 12 still gets weirded out about an immortal being 'wrong' like he did with Jack then it does keep with his character in that respect.

 

I thought that he did check in on Ashildr once--we don't know when this happened, but didn't he say that the last time he saw her, she was starting a leper colony?

[Starchild]

is making Sam Swift immortal too really such a good idea?

Didn't the Doctor say that the portal thingie probably burned out the regenerator after it brought his back to life?

[tankgirl73]

is making Sam Swift immortal too really such a good idea?

Didn't the Doctor say that the portal thingie probably burned out the regenerator after it brought his back to life?

 

He also said he was just making that up. He has no idea, and was just saying what he thought she wanted to hear.

 

I'm assuming we haven't seen the last of Lady Me. I hadn't thought of the idea that she has something to do with Clara's presumed upcoming NOT-AT-ALL-FORESHADOWED death, but that's a cool idea. A potent way for his actions -- saving the life of a young girl who deserved it -- to come back and bite him in the butt.

 

And sure, Jack was immortal. But what about Romana? Sure she's not "immortal" technically speaking, but neither is he. She's still a Time Lady. And the point of their conversation at that time wasn't strictly speaking, immortality -- but just the effects of really really long lives, how your perspective is different etc, how he needs to travel with someone who appreciates life because they have so little of it. The ways that Jack meets those criteria (or doesn't) is exactly like Romana too.

[WatchrTina]

 

I thought that he did check in on Ashildr once--we don't know when this happened, but didn't he say that the last time he saw her, she was starting a leper colony?

Oh yeah, that's right.  Okay, I feel a little better.  Still didn't like the episode.  I feel like if something like that had REALLY happened in 1630-something the reaction of the townspeople would have been "Kill the witch!" rather than applauding Sam Swift's recovery.  For that matter "Lady Me" living alone with one servant would be enough to weird out the surrounding countryside. Yeah, that didn't work for me.

[catrox14]

 

And the point of their conversation at that time wasn't strictly speaking, immortality -- but just the effects of really really long lives, how your perspective is different etc, how he needs to travel with someone who appreciates life because they have so little of it. The ways that Jack meets those criteria (or doesn't) is exactly like Romana too.

 

I guess to me the difference is in how the Doctor treated Jack about his immortality more than anything. Jack to me embodies the tragedy of immortality in that he didn't choose to be essentially immortal (yes they said he aged more slowly and he may or may not be the Face of Boe but that's never been outright confirmed by Davies as anything more than a joke). Jack had no choice in being immortal, and he couldn't stay dead even if he wanted to because of how he became immortal. And the Doctor said he can't fix it either.

 

Sorry I don't mean to go on about Jack. I may or may not be a bitter-Jack-girl LOL

[MarquisDeCarabas]

There is a difference between Jack and Ashildr, Ashildr's body replenishes itself and doesn't succumb to aging, but she can be injured and killed.  Jack can survive being blown up and more.  His body returns to it's original state.

 

Ashildr is very long lived and functionally.  Jack's a fixed point he is almost unchangable (depending on where you fall on the Face of Boe line) he keeps his memory intact.

 

 

I thought that he did check in on Ashildr once--we don't know when this happened, but didn't he say that the last time he saw her, she was starting a leper colony?

 

 

He may have checked in once or twice because he was concerned about whether or not she was the Hybrid that was prophesied.

[catrox14]

 

There is a difference between Jack and Ashildr, Ashildr's body replenishes itself and doesn't succumb to aging, but she can be injured and killed.  Jack can survive being blown up and more.  His body returns to it's original state.

 

Ashildr is very long lived and functionally.  Jack's a fixed point he is almost unchangable (depending on where you fall on the Face of Boe line) he keeps his memory intact.

 

I understand the differences and to me that makes Jack's situation even more tragic. Theoretically, if he's not the Face of Boe, he'll watch everyone and everything he's ever loved or hated, die. He'll be the last thing in the universe :(.  He won't die until, time stops forever. Ugh. That's just...too much.  At least Ashildr won't have that fate. (Man, now want to watch Torchwood all over again).

[bmoore4026]

Again, Capaldi and Maisie Williams rocked this episode.  The back and forth between them was phenomenal.  The scene where Ashildr was talking about losing her children to The Black Plague was heartbreaking.  God, I can't gush enough about the acting!

 

Ms. Williams was also rocking those pre-Reconstruction outfits.  Props to the costume department.

 

I also liked the deconstruction of The Doctor's way of "saving" people.  Being stuck at sixteen years old for centuries ain't fun, as we see.  Hopefully, after this episode, he'll go to that woman from Love and Monsters and release her from that slate.

 

Too bad it didn't end like "Beauty and The Beast" for Ashildr and Leandro?  But she did remember her humanity because of what happened.  Plus, she has Sam now, right?  Is he immortal now, too? 

 

We got a Jack Harkness mention!  Too bad John Barrowman is busy with Arrow.

 

Also, how much was 20 Pounds back in the 1600s?

[forum4idiots]

aside from the idiotic resolution to the whole invasion, this was a pretty good episode.  maybe it was her acting....who knows.  but i find this ep so sad.  as the band queen would say, who wants to live forever.  immortality is boring.  take for instance the idea of being a god, an all knowing immortal being......one who knows every single moment of every aspect in every possible scenario a billion times over and over, never being surprised.  that would drive anyone insane or de-sentitized.  so pointless and yet never being able to die and just be stuck in this endless existence of already knowing the outcome a trillion times over in every possible way and variation.

 

i would think rufus (or whatever hsiname is) would qualify more as the hybrid more than ashildr given he has the tech of two races in him, one of which is from another dimension.

 

that whole cryptic selfie thing is just there to detract the real attention away from rufus.    i think it will be ashildr trying to stop him (the real hybrid) by she can't do it herself, so she has to track down clara to get the doctor's help.  i think rufus will be the hybrid who will start an inter dimensional war......leading into galifrey (that is, by coincidence, is in another dimension)

Edited October 25, 2015 by lovebug1975

[Darth Nigel]

Loved this episode for the most part.  Very much enjoyed the sparring between Lady Me and The Doctor, with discussions of morality, longevity, and the essential transience of life.  There was some good writing and good direction here.  I can't help thinking that if Captain Jack ever does team up with Lady Me, they'll make The Master look like Mr Rogers.

I even enjoyed Sam Swift as a comic relief.  Loved the absence of Clara.

The fire-breathing lion warrior was a bit silly, but that didn't get in the way much.

 

But once again, the BBC America audio feed was out of whack.  The background music was (here in Pierce County Comcast territory) almost as loud as the dialog. It's really f---ing annoying.  If I download the episode from Amazon, the sound balance is better... heck, the sound balance is better on other shows on cable, but Doctor Who is an audio misery.

[forum4idiots]

I dislike the idea that The Doctor, having made Ashildr immortal, would fail to check on her within, oh I don't know, the next 100 years or so.  He'd really wait 800 years?  No wait -- he wasn't checking in on her at all, it was just a coincidence that he ran into her.  Meh.  I didn't like that.  It seemed quite callous.

he did check in on her.....leper colony was it?  i think that's what they were talking about.  besides.  doctor lies.  i'm sure, being very antsy about the hybrid, he probably did check up on her more than that.

[whoknowswho]

Loved this episode for the most part.  Very much enjoyed the sparring between Lady Me and The Doctor, with discussions of morality, longevity, and the essential transience of life.  There was some good writing and good direction here.  I can't help thinking that if Captain Jack ever does team up with Lady Me, they'll make The Master look like Mr Rogers.

I even enjoyed Sam Swift as a comic relief.  Loved the absence of Clara.

The fire-breathing lion warrior was a bit silly, but that didn't get in the way much.

 

But once again, the BBC America audio feed was out of whack.  The background music was (here in Pierce County Comcast territory) almost as loud as the dialog. It's really f---ing annoying.  If I download the episode from Amazon, the sound balance is better... heck, the sound balance is better on other shows on cable, but Doctor Who is an audio misery.

Loved this episode as well- I really enjoyed being almost entirely Clara free- although Clara has grown on me a bit more this season, maybe because she's about to be an ex companion?

 

I have never seen Game of Thrones, but I really like the actress who played Ashildr/Lady Me. She was begging to travel with The Doctor, and I kept yelling  "take her, leave Clara!" even though I know she can't go with him, I'd still love to see her drop in from time to time.  Loved the rich, fleshed-out character she was given, the heartbreaking explanation of outlasting everyone who ever mattered to her, and how she and The Doctor had more in common than not.  They are more similar than they realize, each checking up on the other. 

Loved that Captain Jack was mentioned--he has been one of my favorite characters from older seasons, and I wish he could pop in now and again, too

. 

What I disliked- the Leonine "not very scary lion" and the 5 mins it took to wrap up that little alien invasion problem 8 mins before the end of the show. (I'm guessing) It's become rather formulaic. Also- again, I HATE that I have to turn my TV up to ear-bleeding volume so I can catch the dialogue over the music score- makes for extremely loud commercials, and I'm glad my not very close neighbours also like Doctor Who.  I have to always watch an episode more than once, so I'll try to check it tomorrow on rerun and maybe try the closed caption. I sometimes feel like I'm watching a show in French which I don't speak very well- Peter Capaldi speaks fast and low at times, and has such a Scottish burr I have a hard time with it. Being a native Canadian I'm often a bit slow to understand some words and phrases from "across the big pond"--2 weeks in a row I've tried to watch Raised by Wolves, about 5 mins each time, and can't understand what they are saying, except that it's sort of manic and not my cuppa. When I have to work that hard to translate, it's easier to just change the channel.

 

All in all- this episode was a winner though.

[Llywela]

I thought it was about Richard setting out on crusade, but I haven't seen it (obviously!). Though I may be confusing it with Robin Hood, which went to the Holy Land between episodes, because it was that sort of show. Any others (since clearly your Who-nerdery is greater than mine!)?

Yeah, no, The Crusade isn't about Richard setting out - it's set right smack dab in the middle of his crusade, and gives a really balanced view of both sides. It's an excellent historical adventure, shame only half of it still exists. The Time Warrior is an adventure Ashildr might have caught wind of - 3rd Doctor and Sarah Jane fighting a stranded Sontaran in the middle ages. The Masque of Mandragora is set in the 15th century, but is in Italy and Ashildr does seem to have been permanently based in England for most of her 800 years (presumably came over with her fellow Vikings and settled), which also rules out Marco Polo (13th century China). The Visitation would be a few decades after this episode (1666, to be precise - the Doctor referred to it when he mentioned the Terileptils causing the Great Fire of London). And...I can't think of any others set in the centuries between these two episodes.

 

I actually really liked this episode - it's the first I've properly enjoyed all season (and last, come to that). It wasn't perfect, nothing is, but it was fun and I enjoyed watching it. So I guess it really is Clara, specifically, that's the problem for me, over and above everything else I've struggled with in this era. Because when she popped up at the end...bleugh, my enjoyment was gone again.

 

I do see a 'tragic' end coming for Clara and dread the thought of it. How I long to see a companion just move on, or for the Doctor to just move on, without any long-drawn out, over-the-top angst and melodrama about the parting. Clara has the perfect set-up for it, in fact - she's a part-time companion, the Doctor goes off and has adventures without her, she gets on with her life without him. Letting him drift away from her bit by bit, while her life moves on without him, watching them both deal with that, recognising that they're both moving on and that it's time to let go - now that would be a character story, actual development, organic and natural, which at this point the show really needs. But no. Instead we get all this 'foreshadowing' of tragedy shoehorned in at the edges so that a tragic departure plot can be grafted onto the characters in the interests, presumably, of a Big Season Finale, and all the hype and PR that goes along with it.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Llywela

[John Potts]

I would love a companion who just moved on too - but apparently we can't have a companion leaving without it involving some Huge! Epic! Tragedy!

 

I forget which story it was the featured the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre (pretty sure it's One again), but that would be in 1572, and since it was in Paris, it's possible Ashildr might have heard about the Doctor's involvement, even if she stayed in England (without knowing the details of the story I can't say how likely that is). I'd also thought of Marco Polo (they really did go for the historicals under William Hartnell, didn't they?), but like The Aztecs, even if the timeline works the distance probably prohibits it.

 

bmoore4026 Also, how much was 20 Pounds back in the 1600s?

 

To actually address the thread as opposed to indulging my own Nerd Fu, the short answer would be "A lot". I you were on a shilling a day (which would probably be a decent wage - something like a clerk or a lieutenant in the army/navy, not pure grunt work), then assuming a 6 day working week and a 50 week year, you'd be on £15 a year. (My guesstimate of a daily wage might be out by a degree or two, but it's probably in the right ballpark).

Edited October 25, 2015 by John Potts

[Rhetorica]

I hated it and the girl, whatever her name is. She's just Clara 2.0. Lecturing and hushing the Doctor. Even the dialogue is similar.

[cardigirl]

Hmmm. At the moment, I liked bits and pieces of this two-parter. I loved the humor they inserted and the discussions about immortality. Capaldi really sold the part about how Clara would eventually be gone too and then he would go off in his box 'running away.' As did 11 when he lost Amy and Rory. And 10 when he lost Rose.

I'm not loving the sonic sunglasses, though. Not sure why, they aren't something I want to own, unlike a sonic screwdriver.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/10/doctor-who-season-9-great-woman-who-lived-maisie-williams

And this article bothers me too. I have enjoyed Clara. I thought the impossible girl story was great, and I enjoyed last season's Flatline, The Caretaker, The Mummy on the Orient Express, Listen, and the finale. So a good bit of the season. And I like mythology and an over arching storyline, so boo to those who got rid of it. I guess it's all down to personal tastes.

As for this episode, I was heartbroken for Lady Me when she realized that the Doctor wasn't there to take her with him. All those years, thinking she might travel with him. And then to realize that he just 'bumped' into her. No wonder she got cynical.

And I didn't understand the ending at all. So Lady Me has decided she does care about humans, yet the Doctor is a frenemy? And why is she following Clara? Shouldn't she be in photos of other companions too?

I'm still watching, because I hope that the article is wrong and that there is an over-arching mythological intent to this season.

[Primetimer]

The Doctor's new 'wearable tech' breaks its silence after a bit too much shade-throwing.

Read the story

[benteen]

I really enjoyed this episode.  I definitely didn't miss Clara and I think it helped Capaldi's Doctor here.

 

Maisie Williams and Peter Capaldi absolutely rocked it, I loved their scenes together.  Ashildr is an interesting character and I can't blame her for being upset with the Doctor.  Maybe she could have convinced him to leave her on another world?  In any event, it was a lot of fun.  I liked the Sam Swift character too.

 

I agree the alien invasion aspect was underdeveloped but it didn't really bother me.

 

Liked the reference to the 5th Doctor tale.

 

I liked even more the reference to Captain Jack and I'd like to think he and Ashildr did eventually cross paths.  I don't ever seeing it happen but can you imagine if they ever had Maisie Williams and John Barrowman on the same show?

 

I thought Clara's scene at the end was good though.  Despite my feelings about the character, I don't want to see her die and they seem to be heavily hinting at that, dropping anvils left and right.

 

I think Doctor Who has been good this season.

Edited October 25, 2015 by benteen

[kirinan]

 

The background music was (here in Pierce County Comcast territory) almost as loud as the dialog. It's really f---ing annoying.  If I download the episode from Amazon, the sound balance is better... heck, the sound balance is better on other shows on cable, but Doctor Who is an audio misery.

 

It was the same thing for me--so bad that I couldn't understand 80% of the episode. And our closed-captioning doesn't work on our TV, so although I watched it through to the end it was spectacularly unsatisfying for me, especially because the 20% I did understand was good. 

 

Could someone please explain to me why Lady Me couldn't travel with the Doctor? 

[Mabinogia]

That was...weird. The weird for me being everyone treating Lady Me like she wasn't tiny and looking like a 14 year old playing dress up. I know Maisie isn't that young, but she looks that young to me so it looked weird, like Kirsten Dunst as a little girl vampire in Interview with a Vampire. Though that movie/book dealt with her being an immortal who is too young to be taken seriously in the world and has to depend on others, while Doctor Who acted like no one noticed she was basically a kid.

 

I did like some of the concepts, like her having all those centuries to perfect her skills makes her more skilled than anyone. I loved not having Clara drag the whole thing down by being all smug and the show making it somehow about her. Capaldi and Maisie worked incredibly well together and I would love to have had him forget Clara and take Mini Me with him.

 

I do kind of hate him for not checking up on her. So much for his idea of responsibility of care. Guess that only counts when it's Princess Clara he's talking about. That bugs me to no end, that she is the most importantest companion ever to companion. I'm surprised he even remembers Jack, or anyone else he ever traveled with, exists at this point.

 

I would totally watch the spinoff of Captain Jack and Lady Me Tour the Universe.

 

So many interesting ideas that they rushed through this ep because they had to spit the story into two separate eps. I would have preferred only 1/2 hour on the first story and 1 1/2 on the aftermath of making a child immortal and then ditching her to fend for herself after everyone she knows dies.

[cambridgeguy]

 

That bugs me to no end, that she is the most importantest companion ever to companion. I'm surprised he even remembers Jack, or anyone else he ever traveled with, exists at this point.

That's not just a Clara thing, it's been going on ever since Rose first popped up.  Remember, 10 effectively committed suicide in that alternate future when Donna (the most important woman in all of creation according to Rose) wasn't around to drag him out.  11 retired after Amy left and who knows what 12 will do when Clara leaves. 

 

Him leaving without checking up on things is pretty much a Doctor thing regardless of incarnation.  Being the hero who saves the day is a lot easier than being the guy who help rebuilds after the fact.

[HauntedBathroom]

So, that was...an episode of Doctor Who. Pretty much in the Bristol boys league, some good stuff happened (Capaldi was fun), some bad stuff happened (Rufus Hound and Lenny the lion), together it came to nothing to phone home about. It was a fun, unmemorable way to pass the time.

 

It did make me realise that I am thoroughly done with Clara, as I sighed when she appeared. If she'd have left at the end of season 8, I would have loved the idea of her and her personal arc, but now I'm done, done, done. But when she tripped into the console room and asked where the Doctor was going to take her, at least it gave me the opportunity for a dirty joke.

[pcta]

I loved the the Classic Doctor Who from my childhood, youth and early adulthood. Most of my early Dr Who was Tom Baker (tho' the older Doctors were also broadcast), then Peter Davison, then Colin Baker (who I loved and who was royally screwed by the BBC) then Sylvester McCoy (watched one of his - hated him) Then the long, long Doctor Who-less years. Then the audio (thank you Big Finish) Paul Mcgann. Then the Davies years that I adored. Doctor Who for a new generation and for adults - lovely. And, now the Moffat years. I didn't like Matt Smith - so stopped watching. Thought it was the actor I didn't like. But Peter Capaldi - liked him. But why wasn't I liking the whole Doctor Who as much as I thought I should?

This week's program answered the question for me. It is too much like classic who. Too schizophrenically slap stick - heavy meaning. To me it seems out of date. But I'm old (66) so I have no idea if this is really Doctor Who for the 21st century. Maybe Davies was the aberration and Moffat has his fingers on the pulse, I don't know.

I, too, am unclear about why the Doctor and Maisie couldn't go off together. Not well explained. I am assuming - tho' not really from anything said here - that he needs the human companions to remind him of the human perspective/emotions which he believes make him a better being??? And, Maisie has lost her humanness????

[elle]

I actually watched this one and didn't hate it.  Maybe because Clara wasn't there, maybe because there was more discussion and less explosions.

 

I did think that Ashildr calling the Doctor "the man who fixes things and then runs away" a biting comment and hearkened back to Eleven making the general give the order for the troops to "run away".

 

And sure, Jack was immortal. But what about Romana? Sure she's not "immortal" technically speaking, but neither is he. She's still a Time Lady. And the point of their conversation at that time wasn't strictly speaking, immortality -- but just the effects of really really long lives, how your perspective is different etc, how he needs to travel with someone who appreciates life because they have so little of it. The ways that Jack meets those criteria (or doesn't) is exactly like Romana too.

I wondered about this too.  I actually thought he was going to say Romana and was surprised by the mention of Jack instead.  I really should not have been, I suppose.

 

I have asked if anyone knows what Ten's grudge against Jack that he would run away from Jack when seeing him again for the first time since Ten regenerated.

 

 And did anybody else think of the cat guy as "Lion-O"?

No, "Lion-O" was more noble.  I did get the a "Beauty and the Beast" vibe until the dude turned bad.

[catrox14]

 

I have asked if anyone knows what Ten's grudge against Jack that he would run away from Jack when seeing him again for the first time since Ten regenerated

 

Ten simply thought Jack was "wrong".  It affected him in his core being. 

 

From the Utopia episode

 

DOCTOR [behind door]: When did you first realise?

JACK: Earth, 1892. Got in a fight in Ellis Island. A man shot me through the heart. Then I woke up. Thought it was kind of strange. But then it never stopped. Fell off a cliff, trampled by horses, World War One, World War Two, poison, starvation, a stray javelin. In the end, I got the message. I'm the man who can never die. And all that time you knew.

DOCTOR [behind door]: That's why I left you behind. It's not easy even just looking at you, Jack, because you're wrong.

JACK: Thanks.

DOCTOR [behind door]: You are. I can't help it. I'm a Time Lord. It's instinct. It's in my guts. You're a fixed point in time and space. You're a fact. That's never meant to happen. Even the Tardis reacted against you, tried to shake you off. Flew all the way to the end of the universe just to get rid of you.

JACK: So what you're saying is that you're, er, prejudiced?

DOCTOR [behind door]: I never thought of it like that.

JACK: Shame on you.

DOCTOR [behind door]: Yeah.

[alias1]

I loved this episode.  It was the best Peter Capaldi episode yet and I think it had to do with the writing and not the casting.  Sure, Maisie Williams was good, but I kept thinking if Jenna Coleman had been in this role (instead of the companion) she would have done it equally as well.  So, yes, I did see Maisie as, basically, Clara 2.0.   I was so hoping he would not take Maisie with him at the end.  Thank you Moffat for doing one thing right (or maybe it was the writer of this episode).  The last thing we need is another 20 something as a companion.  I think the selfie thing was stupid, though. 

 

I love the sunglasses on Capaldi and I love the guitar.

[diggle]

I am like Janeway. I just don't think too much about the Time Space Continuum dilemmas because it gives me headaches I don't need.

Because .... doctors runs into Ashildr years later, finds she felt abandoned. "Be right back!" he cries, and visits her many times in her past and then popping back into her now changed present.

He did this in one of my favorite Whos ever - A Christmas Carol.

So, I enjoyed, and am not going to pick it apart. (Although I love picking it apart and then reminding myself, "I enjoyed."

I am not a Clara fan. I did enjoy Maisie very much and am glad we are going to see her again.

Sunglasses are very "Meh" for me.

[ottoDbusdriver]

No, "Lion-O" was more noble.  I did get the a "Beauty and the Beast" vibe until the dude turned bad.

 

and started breathing fire.  Fire-breathing lions, oh my.

[RedHackle]

A neighbor dropped in briefly during the ep so I may have missed it - did they explain how Ashildr was able to disguise her voice, at the beginning when acting as a Highwayman?  And on that, did anyone else think the disguised male voice was terribly familiar sounding?

[ottoDbusdriver]

A neighbor dropped in briefly during the ep so I may have missed it - did they explain how Ashildr was able to disguise her voice, at the beginning when acting as a Highwayman?  And on that, did anyone else think the disguised male voice was terribly familiar sounding?

 

Ashildr explained that she taught herself to do that with her voice.  She did have 800+ years to practice.

 

I didn't recognize the disguised voice though.

[RedHackle]

Thanks, Otto!

[Llywela]

I forget which story it was the featured the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre (pretty sure it's One again), but that would be in 1572, and since it was in Paris, it's possible Ashildr might have heard about the Doctor's involvement, even if she stayed in England (without knowing the details of the story I can't say how likely that is). I'd also thought of Marco Polo (they really did go for the historicals under William Hartnell, didn't they?), but like The Aztecs, even if the timeline works the distance probably prohibits it.

Yep, First Doctor again. The story featuring the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre (I knew I must have missed at least one from the right era!) is called...The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve. Or just The Massacre, if you prefer - both titles are used. I really doubt Ashildr would have heard the Doctor's name associated with that one, though, because no one really knew he was there. William Hartnell wasn't available for filming for something like two out of the four episodes, so the Doctor was missing for most of the story while his companion Steven did all the adventuring and tried to hold things together, pretty much on his own while feeling like a fish out of water in a primitive era he knew nothing about. And then they left just in time for everyone they'd met to get massacred anyway, because history says that's what happened and the Doctor wouldn't mess with history, despite Steven's horror when he found out (the Doctor didn't tell him about the massacre until after they'd already left). So...no, pretty much zero chance of Ashildr hearing the Doctor's name associated with that one. I really like the serial, it's really well done and Steven makes a strong lead, but it's one of the bleakest Doctor Who stories of the era!

And I didn't understand the ending at all. So Lady Me has decided she does care about humans, yet the Doctor is a frenemy? And why is she following Clara? Shouldn't she be in photos of other companions too?

I reckon she looked up Clara because she's only really interested in this Doctor, and Clara is the person most associated with him.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Llywela

[benteen]

Yep, First Doctor again. The story featuring the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre (I knew I must have missed at least one from the right era!) is called...The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve. Or just The Massacre, if you prefer - both titles are used. I really doubt Ashildr would have heard the Doctor's name associated with that one, though, because no one really knew he was there. William Hartnell wasn't available for filming for something like two out of the four episodes, so the Doctor was missing for most of the story while his companion Steven did all the adventuring and tried to hold things together, pretty much on his own while feeling like a fish out of water in a primitive era he knew nothing about. And then they left just in time for everyone they'd met to get massacred anyway, because history says that's what happened and the Doctor wouldn't mess with history, despite Steven's horror when he found out (the Doctor didn't tell him about the massacre until after they'd already left). So...no, pretty much zero chance of Ashildr hearing the Doctor's name associated with that one. I really like the serial, it's really well done and Steven makes a strong lead, but it's one of the bleakest Doctor Who stories of the era!

I reckon she looked up Clara because she's only really interested in this Doctor, and Clara is the person most associated with him.

 

I’ve heard some of the audio from The Massacre.  The last scene with the Doctor and Steven is excellent, maybe some of Hartnell’s best work on the show.

 

I loved the reference to The Visitation.

[WatchrTina]

Okay I've just started re-watching and during the bungled heist pre-credits, when the Doctor can't be bothered to listen to what "The Nightmare" is saying, he says something like "At this point someone usually hits me in the head but she's taken a year's severance for Tae Kwon Do."

 

Is that what you heard and if so WFT?  Is he saying the reason Clara isn't traveling with I'm right now is that she decided to take up a martial art instead?

 

Don't suggest I look at the closed captions -- I don' think s/he could make it out either.

 

ETA:  Finished re-watching it.  Still didn't like it.  Next week looks good through.  But . . .

didn't Osgood die in the last Christmas special?

Edited October 25, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Ceindreadh]

Okay I've just started re-watching and during the bungled heist pre-credits, when the Doctor can't be bothered to listen to what "The Nightmare" is saying, he says something like "At this point someone usually hits me in the head but she's taken a year's severance for Tae Kwon Do."

 

Is that what you heard and if so WFT?  Is he saying the reason Clara isn't traveling with I'm right now is that she decided to take up a martial art instead?

 

Don't suggest I look at the closed captions -- I don' think s/he could make it out either.

 

ETA:  Finished re-watching it.  Still didn't like it.  Next week looks good through.  But . . .

didn't Osgood die in the last Christmas special?

The Doctor said 'she's taking year seven for Tae Kwon do'.  Presumably meaning that she's teaching martial arts to the kids of year seven (because of course there's nothing Clara can't do)