Spoiler Discussion Thread

[ladylaw99]

She really seems so down to earth.  I hope people give her a fair chance.  Actually I hope the writing gives her a fair chance.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, ladylaw99 said:

She really seems so down to earth.  I hope people give her a fair chance.  Actually I hope the writing gives her a fair chance.

She also has pics of what look to be rescue dogs on her Instagram. 

Frankly, I'm totally fine with her. I agree she seems nice and I think she's beautiful. I won't be watching bc the show is nonsense now, but I bet if they'd cast her instead of KC to start they wouldn't have had to change plans so much. 

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

She also has pics of what look to be rescue dogs on her Instagram. 

Frankly, I'm totally fine with her. I agree she seems nice and I think she's beautiful. I won't be watching bc the show is nonsense now, but I bet if they'd cast her instead of KC to start they wouldn't have had to change plans so much. 

I'm completely open to her, but I'm not ready for such proclamations. After all MM is pretty cute on social media, yet having to watch her act is a form of torture. 

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

I'm completely open to her, but I'm not ready for such proclamations. After all MM is pretty cute on social media, yet having to watch her act is a form of torture. 

JH was fine on The Walking Dead playing a similar-ish character. And I say that as someone who stated categorically before MM even appeared that she would be terrible, bc she was terrible (seriously, really, TERRIBLE) on Supernatural. 

I'm not saying she'll be fantastic, bc no idea. But she won't be terrible, and she seems far more athletic than KC.

[Cleanqueen]

She seems like a fun person and someone you could probably just chill and have a good time with. I hope her and Emily are having a good time filming together. And I  hope the writing and the fans give her a chance and these EP's don't disrespect the poor actress by making her hated by both fanbases. 

[ladylaw99]

That is what I am worried about.  The writers poor choice of words will have this girl hated before she is even on T.V.  I will give any character a chance.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

She seems a really nice girl but to me the actors' personality doesn't have an impact on my like/dislike of a character. For example I really, really like both BR and Echo from what we see on SM but I don't care for Ray or Curtis at all. If Tina will be well written and well acted and a good addition I'll like her but if she is going to be yet another mask with nothing unique that takes screen time away from characters I'm already interested in I'll pass.

[AyChihuahua]

40 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

but if she is going to be yet another mask with nothing unique that takes screen time away from characters I'm already interested in I'll pass.

Oh yeah, that'll totally happen. It's always all about the shiniest, newest toy with them. 

I'm fine with the actress and I think she'll be fine in the role. I think the role, and most of the rest of the show, are nonsense.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Oh yeah, that'll totally happen. It's always all about the shiniest, newest toy with them. 

I'm fine with the actress and I think she'll be fine in the role. I think the role, and most of the rest of the show, are nonsense.

It also doesn't help that they added a few new team members already and they could all disappear tomorrow and I'm not sure I'd notice. I'm not against new characters but if they add something to the story, are a good fit and the actors make them special. I need something more that fine..For example on Grey's I loved Lexie, Jackson and April and they were all added a few seasons in.

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

Frankly, I'm totally fine with her. I agree she seems nice and I think she's beautiful. I won't be watching bc the show is nonsense now, but I bet if they'd cast her instead of KC to start they wouldn't have had to change plans so much. 

I've never seen her in anything but I admit I'm curious now.  But I haven't watched anything this year except the crossover, so I'm not sure whether my curiosity is high to jump back in for an episode or two to see what she's like.

But I know I'll always regret that they didn't cast Amy Gumenick instead of KC, so I know what you mean.  It's been weird to me to see how they're doing her character.  So much of it (cop, ex-military, super fighting skills) is stuff I've argued that should have been done with Laurel instead of going the Rachel Dawes knockoff route.  And here they are doing it all with this character.  It's just like...why didn't you start out this way? *shrug* Not that it really matters now, but still. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, Amy Gumenick was really quite good as Young Mary Winchester. She would have been a MUCH better LL. KC just can't portray warmth and she is, IMO, genuinely terrible at action scenes. 

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Exactly. So then when the others find out, she can point out that she didn't reveal who she is - which could lead to someone finding out who the others are - and was very careful. Considering how she felt after finding out about Evelyn's betrayal, this would make sense. (It would also make sense if, perhaps, she looped in Lyla, so she could have ARGUS as a backup and/or something to threaten the new group with.) 

I love the idea of Felicity and Lyla teaming up to run a dark version of  Birds of Prey with Cupid, China White and Lady Cop while Oliver is doing whatever he's doing with Wild Dog etc.  I know I won't get it but a girl can dream.

[AyChihuahua]

Already in spoilers only.

Edited January 10, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

That pretty much confirms it I guess.  Yes, we are getting a new BC, like it or not.

[insomniadreams88]

So are they saying the person behind the mask doesn't matter as long as someone's a Black Canary? Is that their way of handling the situation in case Tina doesn't work out? They can then just have a new BC every season until one sticks? 

[Mellowyellow]

I wonder if they will try for a full blown GA BC romance or just have a BC in the team like they did Laurel in S4.

[way2interested]

Quote

Look, it’s hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary

This just made me chuckle a bit because it made me think, "Oh, so now you don't want to do things like s1, since that was the only season that didn't have a Canary/BC/whatever you want to call it."

[apinknightmare]

Quote

Look, it’s hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary

Not really - you're doing it right now? 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

The EP went on to note, “Look, it’s hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary. I don’t know if it will happen this season or when, but… we are going to be true to origins in the DC universe, and she’s always going to be there.”

Since Laurel's last words were revealed, I've assumed a new Canary was inevitable (even if I had futile hopes it might come in a different shade) but what does it mean to be true to the origins in the DC universe when Tina is true to nothing but the mask?  I mean, I guess technically they finished up with being true (ish) to Black Canary's origin before they killed Laurel so how does that tie into always having the character?  Green Arrow spent most of it's run independent from the Black Canary.  Why is she always going to be there?  And how much more do they feel now they must be true to?  Are we still sticking just to origins and then letting the characters evolve naturally or are there new mandates to line up to the comics?  

I'm seriously flummoxed on how they are handling the Black Canary.  If we were just going to ALWAYS have one, why couldn't we have kept the one I was resigned to? 

[Guest]

The only thing I find baffling is them thinking it's hard writing a show about GA without BC. Um...you've been doing it for some time. Fools. 

Honestly, the only people who would care about there being a BC with GA are hardcore comic stans, and they're not going to be satisfied with someone who isn't Dinah Laurel Lance so this basically has disaster written all over it. Unless they really don't care who will be BC as long as there is one but that's not the impression I've been getting from the internets. Yikes.

[AyChihuahua]

So I guess when it looks, walks, and squawks like a Black Canary, it is a Black Canary.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I'm laughing because instead of being hard to do a GA show without a BC for them it's hard to do a show where she is in it LOL. Anyway I guess that puts the speculations to rest.

[calliope1975]

Why couldn't we keep the best one? Paging Sara Lance. Why can't she pop in for an episode or two per season like Felicity crossing over to The Flash? Why can't I have nice things?

[Willowtree]

http://tvline.com/2017/01/10/arrow-season-5-new-black-canary/

[AyChihuahua]

Similar write-up (courtesy of @HighHopes): https://moviepilot.com/p/new-black-canary-arrow-season-5/4183984

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I'm laughing because instead of being hard to do a GA show without a BC for them it's hard to do a show where she is in it LOL. Anyway I guess that puts the speculations to rest.

All the speculation, on this very thread, that there'd be a NuBC...totally not a waste.

[insomniadreams88]

What I'm interested in seeing is the explanation for why Tina agrees to be the new BC (assuming she does, and same for whoever may take it up after her since they seem to be on a "must have a BC" kick). She doesn't have a connection to Laurel or Sara or even the Lance family. She doesn't have a connection to Star City. (Or will it come out that she and LL were BFFs one summer a long time ago when her family vacationed in Starling City? Maybe she'll really bond with Lance - detective and former captain - and decide to honor his daughter?) Are they going to make Tina so nice that she says, "Sure, I'll be the new Black Canary even though I have no reason to" in hopes of winning over the LL/BC fans? Why wouldn't she want to be her own person/mask/etc.? 

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

What I'm interested in seeing is the explanation for why Tina agrees to be the new BC (assuming she does, and same for whoever may take it up after her since they seem to be on a "must have a BC" kick). She doesn't have a connection to Laurel or Sara or even the Lance family. She doesn't have a connection to Star City. (Or will it come out that she and LL were BFFs one summer a long time ago when her family vacationed in Starling City? Maybe she'll really bond with Lance - detective and former captain - and decide to honor his daughter?) Are they going to make Tina so nice that she says, "Sure, I'll be the new Black Canary even though I have no reason to" in hopes of winning over the LL/BC fans? Why wouldn't she want to be her own person/mask/etc.? 

Because legacy. And also bc that's how they'll write it. (Seriously, the whole "persuading her" thing will prob take ten show minutes.)

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Are they going to make Tina so nice that she says, "Sure, I'll be the new Black Canary even though I have no reason to" in hopes of winning over the LL/BC fans? Why wouldn't she want to be her own person/mask/etc.? 

Total guess on my part - Tina's going to have lost someone in her past, and Oliver is going to relate to her through his loss of Laurel. I'm not sure if she'll get the name with the costume or one will come before the other, but I'm guessing Oliver's going to reveal to her that there's something about her that reminds him of Laurel, and that's why she'll decide to take the name.

[Belinea]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm guessing Oliver's going to reveal to her that there's something about her that reminds him of Laurel, and that's why she'll decide to take the name.

This will probably how it goes down.

My guess is that the show wanted to get rid of their BC but DC didn't want them to get rid of the BC because reasons. Regardless of the fact that the show never really established that BC was super important to the GA. They always made LL important to OQ but never BC important to GA. (Aside from Sara helping out)

She will be ready to take the mantel by season's end because she will stick around for season 6 and she will probably be one of the sidekicks that stick. 

[ladylaw99]

I don't read or have read comics, so none of this sounds appealing for me. As far as I am concerned I was happy with Sara as BC. I really don't want to go through this route again. 

[apinknightmare]

At this point I hope they just slap a mask on her and call it a day. Please do not go with a lengthy suit-up period. I do not have it me to watch yet another drawn-out origin story for someone I don't care about.

[insomniadreams88]

Gotta love how everyone else gets a code name within, what, at the most half a season of suiting up (assuming Tina gets hers by season's end and not soon-ish), but Diggle was in the field with Oliver and they were talking to Felicity on comms since S1 and it took until S4 for them to get code names. 

[LeighAn]

Oh yep poor Tina is going to be hated by all sides of fandom. Good job writers. 

[insomniadreams88]

Just realized that if they do have Tina going around as BC, I hope someone calls Sara and lets her know and she doesn't find out because of some news article stating something along the lines of "Black Canary Saves X in Star City." 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

Oh yep poor Tina is going to be hated by all sides of fandom. Good job writers. 

Not if she doesn't interfere with Olicity!

I have always thought it was fine to keep BC around! More people to help out and fight crime when Olicity babies arrive.

That's why I was perfectly happy with Laurel and then they had to kill her and bring in a threat of a new romance.

[statsgirl]

The endless origin stories every season are almost a worse drag on the show than the flashbacks are.

Quote

Because make no mistake, Arrow‘s showrunners — who, as with the bosses of most TV series, have no hand in creating promos — would have preferred that secret (which we won’t regurgitate here) to have been kept a few weeks longer....Arrow co-showrunner Marc Guggenheim was asked about the aforementioned overshare. “Without commenting on the promo, which I have nothing to do with…,” he diplomatically responded, “[and] without commenting on the spoiler, I would say that the episode ends with laying a very specific seed, with a very specific game plan on our part that we hope to see come to fruition.”

Ha, ha, ha , ha

When WM says "“Look, it’s hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary. I don’t know if it will happen this season or when, but… we are going to be true to origins in the DC universe, and she’s always going to be there,” I assume that "it's hard to do a show about Green Arrow without having a Black Canary" I heard "because DC won't let us."

I wonder if bringing in a new BC was part of the negotiations for being allowed to put Laurel in the grave or if that's something that happened over the summer. I suspect the latter.

[MaisyDaisy]

It's just so ham fisted. You have a whole heap of people in the LL/comic fandom that think that BS will be rehabilitated to become a new BC, but instead are getting the old switcharoo, the very same fandom that use Mary Sue in every sentence when talking about non comic canon sourced characters (or ones that don't stay within the parameters of their own established headcanons). I foresee a massive backlash.

if the wanted a new BC, they should have given it more space from when KC was on the show.

I will be sitting back watching the fallout with a bowl of popcorn. 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Oh yep poor Tina is going to be hated by all sides of fandom. Good job writers. 

She could wind up being all right. There was a day a long time ago when I wanted character motivation for putting on a costume and getting a superhero name, and I wanted to see people fail at it before they succeeded. At this point with all these useless newbies running around, just give her some leather, give her a mask, and then just shove her in the background somewhere with limited time spent on the discussion and evaluation of her own personal island pls. 

[Guest]

I think it depends on how they use BC tbh. If they go the GA/BC romance route, they're idiots. I have no interest in watching Oliver romance a third Canary. At all. But if they just let Tina be a kickass female with the canary cry then go for it. But then I'm not a Laurel or comic fan so I totally understand why others might not respond to her tbh.

I guess we'll see.

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Total guess on my part - Tina's going to have lost someone in her past, and Oliver is going to relate to her through his loss of Laurel. I'm not sure if she'll get the name with the costume or one will come before the other, but I'm guessing Oliver's going to reveal to her that there's something about her that reminds him of Laurel, and that's why she'll decide to take the name.

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it going down, and that's probably where this "Carlos" comes in too.

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

At this point I hope they just slap a mask on her and call it a day. Please do not go with a lengthy suit-up period. I do not have it me to watch yet another drawn-out origin story for someone I don't care about.

That's one of my biggest problems with this whole thing whenever I think about it. In the end of it all, it's going to be both too soon (like all of the newbies compared Roy, Thea, even Laurel if you compare it to 223 to 310 or even her first introduction and even Curtis if you compare it to his first introduction despite his abrupt insertion into the field) and too drawn-out (if she's introduced as a fighter with the Canary Cry and we've already got this article and Laurel's promise in mind, then every second of her on screen will just be trudging through an origin story that we already know is going to happen so much so that it's now become a when? instead of a how? or why?).

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Not if she doesn't interfere with Olicity!

I have always thought it was fine to keep BC around! More people to help out and fight crime when Olicity babies arrive.

That's why I was perfectly happy with Laurel and then they had to kill her and bring in a threat of a new romance.

Look how many people in this very thread are 100% positive that she is for sure going to make the sweet sweet love to Oliver and be true love forever, take Felicitys place on the show and Emily be killed off or leave the show in some Katie Cassidy type deal where she comes back for guest appearances. 

I happen to agree with you that we have had Black Canaries on the show since season 2 and they've never posed a threat to Olicity (or Olicity babies) but that doesn't stop people from panicking about them.

And the comic crowd are going to hate her on principle. Because things like the name matter. 

[Chaser]

I can't buy they care Black Canary. The last time I felt they did was in S2 with Sara and when they didn't get to keep her they went whatever and half-assed everything since. Im not reading much enthusiasm in those quotes. Just an "it is what it is" vibe.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Look how many people in this very thread are 100% positive that she is for sure going to make the sweet sweet love to Oliver and be true love forever, take Felicitys place on the show and Emily be killed off or leave the show in some Katie Cassidy type deal where she comes back for guest appearances. 

I happen to agree with you that we have had Black Canaries on the show since season 2 and they've never posed a threat to Olicity (or Olicity babies) but that doesn't stop people from panicking about them.

And the comic crowd are going to hate her on principle. Because things like the name matter. 

They went with the romantic route with both those BC though. That's why people think the writers want to pair GA and BC, temporarily or not. And I'm one of those who said I'm convinced the plan is still O/F but I wouldn't rule out Oliver and Tina hooking up at some point.

[LeighAn]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

She could wind up being all right. There was a day a long time ago when I wanted character motivation for putting on a costume and getting a superhero name, and I wanted to see people fail at it before they succeeded. At this point with all these useless newbies running around, just give her some leather, give her a mask, and then just shove her in the background somewhere with limited time spent on the discussion and evaluation of her own personal island pls. 

I'm okay with this story plan haha. Rip it off like a bandaid and be done with it. Hey maybe make her a meta character and have her and Felicity become BFFs- peace between the fanbases ha. 

My thing is none of the newbies have been successful and broke out with the audience no matter how much the writers have tried to push them so I don't know why they think Tina as Black Canary will especially coming in the wake of such controversial circumstances.

I just don't see her breaking the norm but I fear like Wild Dog the writers are going to try really hard to make her beloved. 

[calliope1975]

Can't do a GA show without BC! I would argue you can't do the DC Universe without Bruce Motherfucking Wayne, but CW manages that just fine. Just say you were told to bring in a BC because comics bosses and leave it at that. 

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

Can't do a GA show without BC! I would argue you can't do the DC Universe without Bruce Motherfucking Wayne, but CW manages that just fine. Just say you were told to bring in a BC because comics bosses and leave it at that. 

Like @Chaser said there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm in the quotes so I think that us their way of saying they were told too so they are.

[AyChihuahua]

Quote

Look how many people in this very thread are 100% positive that she is for sure going to make the sweet sweet love to Oliver and be true love forever, take Felicitys place on the show and Emily be killed off or leave the show in some Katie Cassidy type deal where she comes back for guest appearances. 

Who on this thread has ever said they are 100% positive she is going to make sweet sweet love to Oliver and be true love forever/take Felicity's place? I do not remember anyone ever making such a claim. 

[Ophanim]

Very basic Q: why not go back to Sara as Black Canary? Actress is already here, has own Show, has history with Oliver, IS recognized as real  THE Black Canary by fans and EPs (before KC interference), and she can pop in every time when she is needed in Arrow, and people like her, so, why, o why making new drama in fandom introducing new BC#4? *sigh    

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

Can't do a GA show without BC! I would argue you can't do the DC Universe without Bruce Motherfucking Wayne, but CW manages that just fine. Just say you were told to bring in a BC because comics bosses and leave it at that. 

I think Wendy kind of did, that was almost a word for word quote of Geoff Johns. Seems like DC decided they needed a BC...any BC.

I'm honestly curious as to the reaction. I mean has ANY show ever made 3 attempts/recasts at the same 'character' (excluding Soaps)? This just screams law of diminishing returns to me. 

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, Lidach said:

Very basic Q: why not go back to Sara as Black Canary? Actress is already here, has own Show, has history with Oliver, IS recognized as real  THE Black Canary by fans and EPs (before KC interference), and she can pop in every time when she is needed in Arrow, and people like her, so, why, o why making new drama in fandom introducing new BC#4? *sigh    

Bc she has her own show, which just got renewed, and of which she is an integral part. And they want more than a pop-in BC.