Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Trini]

So. Much. Backtracking.
If they wanted to be rid of Laurel/Cassidy they could have just sent her off to another city.

[Mellowyellow]

This is going to depend on how stupid the writers are (hehe and they are pretty stupid so there is not much encouragement in that). 

If they try for a GA BC romance I can see Olicity fans losing their shit completely (mainly me hehe). If they make her a platonic mask who is pleasant and inoffensive I can see her being added to fanfic by Olicity fans as "Felicity's friend"

So much hinging on the writers intelligence in handling this which is probably not a great vote of confidence.

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

This is going to depend on how stupid the writers are (hehe and they are pretty stupid so there is not much encouragement in that). 

If they try for a GA BC romance I can see Olicity fans losing their shit completely (mainly me hehe). If they make her a platonic mask who is pleasant and inoffensive I can see her being added to fanfic by Olicity fans as "Felicity's friend"

So much hinging on the writers intelligence in handling this which is probably not a great vote of confidence.

IMO it's not just the writers. I really think this is an order from above, and I have zero idea what exactly those orders entail.

(And she will have to romance SOMEBODY. No way they bring on someone that attractive and keep her platonic for her whole run.)

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, Lidach said:

Very basic Q: why not go back to Sara as Black Canary? Actress is already here, has own Show, has history with Oliver, IS recognized as real  THE Black Canary by fans and EPs (before KC interference), and she can pop in every time when she is needed in Arrow, and people like her, so, why, o why making new drama in fandom introducing new BC#4? *sigh    

Cause they put her on Legends of Tomorrow. Im assuming their generally happy with Legends so they aren't going to pull Sara/Caity back for Arrow.

But they probably shouldn't have chickened out when they were trying to make her the Black Cabary on the first place but then if rumours are to be believed Katie threatened to sue so.

[Mrs. de Winter]

I love that none of the idiots in charge can see the irony of claiming BC is so important while talking about the third iteration of said character in less than five full seasons.   Whatever show, whatever. 

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think Wendy kind of did, that was almost a word for word quote of Geoff Johns. Seems like DC decided they needed a BC...any BC.

I'm honestly curious as to the reaction. I mean has ANY show ever made 3 attempts/recasts at the same 'character' (excluding Soaps)? This just screams law of diminishing returns to me. 

Almost word for word what SA said as well. We have meet the party line.

Apathy. That's my best guess.

[ladylaw99]

Anything hinging on these wrtiers intelligence is sure to be disappointing. The writers and Eps really should't do interviews.

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

I love that none of the idiots in charge can see the irony of claiming BC is so important while talking about the third iteration of said character in less than five full seasons.   Whatever show, whatever. 

She's so super important and the best ever... But it's taken us three tries to get the audience to like her (and probably still don't)

[insomniadreams88]

Maybe they're going to wait to give her the BC name until they see if viewers like her. So then they don't have to have yet another BC next year - they can just get rid of Tina and try again without having to say "Yep, another BC failed. But BC is super important to GA, guys." 

Edited January 11, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Morrigan2575]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Almost word for word what SA said as well. We have meet the party line.

Apathy. That's my best guess.

You're right, I forgot about that. Yep, party line

[ComicFan777]

Oliver should just bring the chocolate statue into the arrowcave - that way he will always be fighting alongside a black canary.  Problem solved.

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

IMO it's not just the writers. I really think this is an order from above, and I have zero idea what exactly those orders entail.

(And she will have to romance SOMEBODY. No way they bring on someone that attractive and keep her platonic for her whole run.)

True you have a good point.

I wonder what this is meant to achieve though. Say they mandate their epic GA BC romance. Olicity fans lose their shit and leave the show. That leaves all the comic fanboys to buy merchandise etc? Neutral viewers would still watch I guess. 

hehe thinking out loud!

[ladylaw99]

This is why I was feeling sorry for JH.  People could be hard on her character since it is attempt #3 or 4, I have lost count.

[AyChihuahua]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

True you have a good point.

I wonder what this is meant to achieve though. Say they mandate their epic GA BC romance. Olicity fans lose their shit and leave the show. That leaves all the comic fanboys to buy merchandise etc? Neutral viewers would still watch I guess. 

hehe thinking out loud!

I'm mostly avoiding the "will they bang" issue around here, but I expect this is about merchandise and marketing, not storytelling.

[lemotomato]

It's really apparent to me that Arrow has been treated like a test subject by the network/DC for a couple of seasons now. "Hey guys, thanks for establishing that superheroes make for good TV. Now we want spinoffs, so write these characters into the show." "Hey guys, looks like the show is a stable moneymaker and we're going to keep it around longer than you though, pump the breaks on your endgame couple." "Hey guys, we're doing Flashpoint. It's a shared universe, so figure out how to work with it." "Hey guys, you know how you got rid of a character that didn't fit in the narrative you developed? Yeah, we need you to add her back, in some capacity." I mean, the writers are hardly the best as it is, but I imagine it's that much harder to write when they get handed edicts that run counter to what the story they're trying to tell.

[Ophanim]

Party line...well that explains almost everything in season 5: retcon, 180 on Olicity, SA's suddenly discovered "love" for BC, and maybe a strange behavior from Guggie, hm? So, in season 6, I bet SA will have that famous beard, and BC beside it. We can thank Geoff Johns for that (I think?)

Look, I am all for new female character, but they barely concentrate on standard regulars, and if there is new BC she definitely won't come just for few episodes, she is here to stay as stated by Wendy.

[Mellowyellow]

5 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm mostly avoiding the "will they bang" issue around here, but I expect this is about merchandise and marketing, not storytelling.

I'm just curious as to which obsessive fan base they are trying to target! And one that will spend money too!

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm just curious as to which obsessive fan base they are trying to target! And one that will spend money too!

They seem to be under the impression that fans should love everything they throw at them and if they aren't at the moment they sure will come around. I admire the confidence, LOL

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm just curious as to which obsessive fan base they are trying to target! And one that will spend money too!

Dudebros. Generally comics-positive-but-not-comics-obsessed dudebros. Juliana is hot. She'll look great in skintight black leather.

[Chaser]

If the mandate is just to include her, than I'm not seeing her playing a big role. The show has struggled to include BC for seasons, I can't see the EPs wanting to try this again. They have to see the problems with bringing a third one on. So I can see them sticking her in the background, throwing her in a mask after a couple episodes. This is the route I'm thinking they are taking because they included her island in her backstory. They aren't going to put her through one for the audience.  

[Mellowyellow]

Just now, AyChihuahua said:

Dudebros. Generally comics-positive-but-not-comics-obsessed dudebros. Juliana is hot. She'll look great in skintight black leather.

Do dudebros have money for merchandise or do they live in their mother’s basement?

[Trini]

On 1/10/2017 at 7:16 PM, lemotomato said:

It's really apparent to me that Arrow has been treated like a test subject by the network/DC for a couple of seasons now. "Hey guys, thanks for establishing that superheroes make for good TV. Now we want spinoffs, so write these characters into the show." "Hey guys, looks like the show is a stable moneymaker and we're going to keep it around longer than you though, pump the breaks on your endgame couple." "Hey guys, we're doing Flashpoint. It's a shared universe, so figure out how to work with it." "Hey guys, you know how you got rid of a character that didn't fit in the narrative you developed? Yeah, we need you to add her back, in some capacity." I mean, the writers are hardly the best as it is, but I imagine it's that much harder to write when they get handed edicts that run counter to what the story they're trying to tell.

Well, I think that the showrunners still would have a way to stall Olicity anyway, and it was their choice about what would change with Flashpoint; but everything else, I agree. It sucked that they had to nix their version of Suicide Squad.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Trini

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

If the mandate is just to include her, than I'm not seeing her playing a big role. The show has struggled to include BC for seasons, I can't see the EPs wanting to try this again. They have to see the problems with bringing a third one on. So I can see them sticking her in the background, throwing her in a mask after a couple episodes. This is the route I'm thinking they are taking because they included her island in her backstory. They aren't going to put her through one for the audience.  

This. Just because they may have been told to include her doesn't mean they've been told how to use her. Either way DC/WB will have a brand new character to make an action toy from regardless of how she is used. 

[Angel12d]

I wonder if they'll put Tina in fishnets?

I jest, I jest.

Seriously though, I usually want to care about the person behind the mask but I'd rather not sit through a 3rd BC origin story so the sooner she suits up the better. Just...enough already. 

[Ophanim]

We can only speculate what is the game plan for BC, at the end, it won't mattered. I think The decision is already made.  

I am more interested in Felicity Smoak action and rumored Dark Circle of Bad Women, and I really hope there is more of her in other half back, because she is pure reason why I barely hanging on the show right now. 

[dtissagirl]

If orders from Warner Pictures came that they need the Black Canary IP visible, then it's likely because she'll be a character on Gotham City Sirens. And since that movie is being fastracked, they need Arrow to suit Tina up ASAP.

Edited January 11, 2017 by dtissagirl

[insomniadreams88]

I wonder if they'll even address how Lance is going to feel about someone else suiting up as BC. Please don't let it lead to him drinking again. 

ETA: I wonder if Lance will even have scenes with Tina or if they'll just avoid that as much as possible. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by insomniadreams88

[Sakura12]

They could just let Sara take her name back and tell the independent GA and BC comic stories when they were off fighting crime with their own teams and worked together during crossovers. Then we'd get the GA and BC that love and respect one another just not in a romantic sense. 

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They could just let Sara take her name back and tell the independent GA and BC comic stories when they were off fighting crime with their own teams and worked together during crossovers. Then we'd get the GA and BC that love and respect one another just not in a romantic sense. 

I would love for Sara to take back the name but, I think they prefer to keep LoT more flexible and using White Canary means they can pretty much do whatever they want with having to worry about Comics!

[ComicFan777]

If DC's main goal is merchandising, then it would have made more sense to integrate BC into the DC super hero girls cartoon.  The movie, cartoon series, books, and toys seem pretty successful and I saw a few girls throwing a fit in front of those dolls the other day.

Edited January 11, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, Willowtree said:

http://tvline.com/2017/01/10/arrow-season-5-new-black-canary/

MG...

[AyChihuahua]

32 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Do dudebros have money for merchandise or do they live in their mother’s basement?

I try not to hang out with dudebros, but I think they have money. I mean if they live in their mothers' basements they don't have to pay rent. More money for merch.

Being serious for a sec, dudes are not difficult. As Felicity said, "Boobs can get a frat boy to do anything." She'll be hot and probably good at fighting. They'll mostly be perfectly happy with that. It's not deep for most dudes.

And I really think, as I said months ago, that it's a DC thing. The writers don't at all seem to have planned for this when they were planning LL's death.

[Sakura12]

What comic would they have to follow? BC is leading a group of super hero time travelers. So they can tell their own stories. They already told the BC story with Sara's origin. 

[LeighAn]

Reading the comment section to that article there was not one positive excited comment for Tina being Canary from either dude bros comic stans or Olicity fans. There was a whole lot of the CW can keep it type comments and since they've been hemoraging viewers all season I'm thinking that will continue. I do not see Tina being able to acheive what Wild Dog Curtis Rory and Artemis could not based solely on pre opinion. I'm inclined to believe that people have allowed themselves to be prejudiced against liking Tina.  But I guess the proof will be in the pudding.

 Yes dude bros like hot women and action but they don't like soapy romance drama or their male lead tied down by it and they care about canon. They care that it be Dinah you can tell just by reddit and the tv line comments reaction.

 I mean Emily is hot and they put her in tight short dresses and high heels meant to accentuate her assets despite being impractical for her line of work and dude bros still hate her.

[statsgirl]

They need Sara for LoT.  Yes, Rip will be back and Mick Rory is a hit but they really, really need Sara to ground the show. (I'm watching The Flash crossover right now and Sara's cynicism makes the scene happen even if it's just one line.) Contrary to the p.r. bumph, from Marc & WendyArrow doesn't really need a Black Canary for if Tina fails, the show will still be fine

There has to be a reason they want to do another try at a Black Canary, whether it's for the comic books or a film or some other BTW reason because on the surface this doesn't make make much sense.

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

They went with the romantic route with both those BC though. That's why people think the writers want to pair GA and BC, temporarily or not. And I'm one of those who said I'm convinced the plan is still O/F but I wouldn't rule out Oliver and Tina hooking up at some point.

This is what I'm afraid of.  Olicity is still going to be endgame but they're going to draw out the painful by having Oliver get together with Tina.  I don't see that making anyone happy except the noromo crowd.  Black Canary fans won't like it because she's not Laurel and Olicity fan will give up on the show before they give up on their ship.

[tangerine95]

All that totally sounds like this was something that was mandated by DC/WB, I don't think they want BC on the show anymore and I don't think they would have brought on a 3rd one if they really had a choice.But I also don't get why WB or DC would do that either. Like it's ridiculous to have 3 versions of the same character in the span of 4 seasons. If Arrow did anything for BC it was damaging the name and the character imo. I know that at least for me, I didn't know BC and she sounds awesome in the comics but I kinda have an irrational dislike and disinterest in that story and it's because of the mess they made of it on the show. So pushing her on Arrow and these EPs is the worst thing to do if they want her being visible and creating some buzz for the character.

[insomniadreams88]

You know, thinking about what people said about Grey's bringing in new characters and killing them (I think?), if the point of all these new characters is to have people to kill off near the end of the season with whatever Prometheus is going to have planned - wonder what he'll do in May - is the point of spending all this time on them to try to make us care about them? Because I have to say, it's not working.

If it becomes very clear that Tina's not working, I won't be surprised if she dies because this interview makes it clear they just care about a Black Canary. (I wonder how many women are suddenly going to have a metahuman canary cry from being in CC if this is the case or if they'll go back to using tech.) No explanation necessary for WD. (Take him, Prometheus. Or have WD leave town. Something. I really don't want him around in S6.) They could kill off poor Rory simply because of the magic in his rags and then, between seasons, again talk about "getting back to basics" without magic. (Rory is the only one I'd miss.) 

[Ophanim]

Funny thing is, season 4A was actually universally loved, by critics, by viewers, damn - even by non-fans of Olicity pairing, they finally started to accepting it. But fragile peace have gone down the moment they killed LL.  I almost, almost regret them for killing her, but then again, KC was really unwatchable in this role. 

God, I can't wait for that Book to tell-all BTS gold, because is sure there is some!

[calliope1975]

The DC synergy isn't even good. Deadshot's on Arrow. Nope, now he's dead because we need Will Smith to be Deadshot and audiences aren't smart enough to comprehend that there's two. Lather, rinse, repeat with Amanda Waller. We can have two Flashes because of reasons, though. And two Supermans. But wait, we're making a movie with BC (presumably) so now we need her visible on DCTV. I seriously doubt JH will be starring alongside Margot Robbie so it probably won't be the same character. I see no throughline logic on these decisions. 

MCU/MTV might not be perfect, but at least I know if they mention Thor on AOS, it's Hemsworth they're talking about, and they don't have to kill off Coulson to use him in the movies. (Bad example as they did kill him in the movies.) 

Anyhoo, I wish JH all the luck. I hope she's swell. I almost want to go to PaleyFest now to see, in person, what type of crap they'll attempt to sell me. 

[Sakura12]

I guess I just don't see why BC needs to be on Arrow. If Sara takes her name back a liked BC would still be in the Arrow verse. Plus I liked BC better when she wasn't with GA in the comics. Their relationship was toxic.

I know it would be a scheduling thing, but Sara would gladly help Oliver when he asks. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Lidach said:

But fragile peace have gone down the moment they killed LL.

That fragile peace died with the breakup - with Felicity being too "whiny" about "something that wasn't her business" and the focus shifting to Oliver's manpain over the breakup and wanting to get back together again. They just...should not do romantic drama. Ever. It's terrible, and pretty much no one enjoys it. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, calliope1975 said:

Anyhoo, I wish JH all the luck. I hope she's swell. I almost want to go to PaleyFest now to see, in person, what type of crap they'll attempt to sell me. 

Doooo it! ?

[LeighAn]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

This is what I'm afraid of.  Olicity is still going to be endgame but they're going to draw out the painful by having Oliver get together with Tina.  I don't see that making anyone happy except the noromo crowd.  Black Canary fans won't like it because she's not Laurel and Olicity fan will give up on the show before they give up on their ship.

Is it possible they have a Oliver/Tina hookup-maybe. But I still think it's unlikely. They started the season with Olicity being a question mark with that smacks of foreshadowing line between Diggle and Oliver at the end of the premiere which kind of lends itself to the idea that they will answer that question in the season finale. They are going out of their way to parrallel Oliver and Felicitys storylines and have them put in the opposite place in the baby mamma break up storyline (Oliver having a significant other lie and keep things from him, Felicity making unilateral decisions with out including Oliver) which lends it self to a better understanding of one another's role and they are still pushing Susan/Oliver as of 5x15 which doesn't leave a whole lot of time for Tina/Oliver beyond maybe a one or two episode "lunge" type thing.

If Olicity aren't clearly reunited by the season finale maybe it will be anyone's game but perhaps the reason the chose to create a brand new character in the Black Canary suit is precisely so they can avoid all the pre existing bagge the character brings in terms of Olivers life romantically and on the field.

So while I was never in denial about the prospect of Tina being a potential Black Canary IMO I'm still not jumping to any conclusions about her being a love interest. I'm in wait and see mode. 

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

I guess I just don't see why BC needs to be on Arrow. If Sara takes her name back a liked BC would still be in the Arrow verse. Plus I liked BC better when she wasn't with GA in the comics. Their relationship was toxic.

I know it would be a scheduling thing, but Sara would gladly help Oliver when he asks. 

I agree. I just don't get it. Give it to Sara, maybe write a couple of episodes where Sara shows up on Arrow + the big crossover. In between Sara gets to lead her team and Oliver has his.

[calliope1975]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Doooo it! ?

Am I that much of a masochist? I know I'd want to stand up and say, this is garbage! and storm out, but I could only do that in my dreams. I'd just end up sitting there getting more and more annoyed. Hmmm...maybe I could live tweet it. 

[LeighAn]

I was always okay with Oliver redeems Black Siren and sends her off to be Black Canary in Earth 2. Done. Happy Olicity fans happy Comic fans.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Am I that much of a masochist? I know I'd want to stand up and say, this is garbage! and storm out, but I could only do that in my dreams. I'd just end up sitting there getting more and more annoyed. Hmmm...maybe I could live tweet it. 

Go and ask a very simple question. "WTF were you thinking?" ?

[HighHopes]

With them getting a season six already, what is really stopping them from not putting O/F back together this season (or at all?). They have a guaranteed 23+ more episodes. I am really expecting Oliver/Reporter for a few episodes and then some Oliver/Tina flirting with a potential hook-up and no O/F reunion for this season. They can now do whatever they want this season, ratings be damned because they don't have to worry about renewal.

[lemotomato]

14 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

Am I that much of a masochist? I know I'd want to stand up and say, this is garbage! and storm out, but I could only do that in my dreams. I'd just end up sitting there getting more and more annoyed. Hmmm...maybe I could live tweet it. 

I went in 2015 and even though the panel was focused on selling the storylines at the time (this was right after 315 aired, so I was pretty irritated) it was fun to watch the cast interact. Plus they'll probably put together a sizzle reel for episodes 16-19, so you'll get some firsthand spoilers. You should go!

Edited January 11, 2017 by lemotomato

[calliope1975]

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Go and ask a very simple question. "WTF were you thinking?" ?

Sadly, that could be about so many different aspects of the show. Heh. My luck it'll be a huge WD push, and I'll have to throw my purse at the stage.

When do we think they got this DC mandate? Before the season started?

I know CW doesn't care about ratings, but that drop has to hurt some egos. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by calliope1975