S04.E19: A Mad Tea Party

[Athena]

Bay takes over hosting Lily's baby shower at the Kennish house when Regina is pulled away by an emergency with Will. At the shower, sparks fly between Kathryn and Professor Marillo, with Daphne caught in the middle. Lily stresses over how others will take the news of her decision.

 

Title Art: A Mad Tea Party (1969), by Salvador Dali.

[Bringonthedrama]

Bay was fabulous in this episode. You go, girl! I'm so utterly disgusted with Regina. There are just no words. I love that the last line was John blasting Regina for bringing a felon into their home. I wanted to slap Regina for shooting Bay a sad/betrayed look. I'm kinda rooting for the Kennishes to kick Regina out, and for her to go to jail for being an accessory to her bf kidnapping Will, who she loves as her own "son." She deserved to be blackmailed for her stupidity. 

 

Am I supposed to be impressed by Daphne after her scene with the professor, and then the former classmate? I'm not. 

 

Kathryn went from being great in sticking up for baby during the shower to being an utter idiot with Lily.

[JaggedLilPill]

Bay was fabulous in this episode. You go, girl! I'm so utterly disgusted with Regina. There are just no words. I love that the last line was John blasting Regina for bringing a felon into their home. I wanted to slap Regina for shooting Bay a sad/betrayed look. I'm kinda rooting for the Kennishes to kick Regina out, and for her to go to jail for being an accessory to her bf kidnapping Will, who she loves as her own "son." She deserved to be blackmailed for her stupidity.

 

Pretty  much. Am I supposed to feel bad for Regina? Think that Bay betrayed her? Woman, you moved a guy who kidnapped his son onto your co-parents property and didn't tell them. If it was that easy for Hope to find where Regina lived, who knows what could have happened. She really endangered everybody. Sometimes I think Regina and Daphne are related since they just....ugh. Daphne bringing up Nacho reminded me of how stupid she was to disclose that info to him too. 

 

I'm sure people will say Bay did it out of spite, but, whatever. Bravo, Bay. 

[Eri]

If this is a sign of Bay finally relinquishing her feelings for Regina I wouldn't blame her. Offering some of Angelo's money to a guy who you've barely known a year, for extortion? She has clearly lost her mind. I thought the foolishness stopped after Angelo and even Wes but this is too much. All the red flags are there and she still has the mindset that as long as she can handle it then no one else has to be involved.  After all the trust-building it's taken for the Kennishes to lighten up a bit, she gives them more reason to shoot daggers her way. In the end, she's always jeopardizing the relationships she has for some stranger.

 

Regina has learned nothing and makes wreckless mistake after mistake, all for what? Love? Have a seat!

Edited October 20, 2015 by Eri

[bybrandy]

I feel like that last look was supposed to indicate that we were supposed to feel Bay betrayed Regina... but I'm not feeling it.   Bay's parents needed to know that they were harboring a fugitive.  Also it is time 1 bazillion where John and Kathryn are Bay's parents and Bay is this person who Regina's met a few times.   It is nice when something everybody who watches the show has noticed but the show pretends isn't a thing, is finally aknowledged.  I used to really, really want Bay and Regina bonding scenes but at this point I like that Bay's accepted that Regina won't ever be a full second mother to her.  

 

[Bringonthedrama]

If this is a sign of Bay finally relinquishing her feelings for Regina I wouldn't blame her. Offering some of Angelo's money to a guy who you've barely known a year, for extortion? 

I'm really hoping that Bay and Daphne find out about that and tell her off. I would like to see Bay then write her off. (I know Daphne won't; she has some of Regina's unattractive character traits). 

[stopeslite]

I really wanted the Bay and Katherine spinoff show this entire episode, but that last minute got to me. I was with Bay right until the end, and I wonder if it was a weird glitch of a directing choice - when she wanted to talk to Katherine and John she looked like she was ready to throw up from being so upset, but then when Regina walked in she was all "ha HA!" defiant that she had gotten her revenge or whatever. I think she should have looked more sad but resigned to fit in better with what had just happened. So, I'm not sure what's going on with Bay.

 

Everyone else on this show can go jump in a river. They were all terrible, every one of them. Daphne saves someone YET AGAIN OH MY GOD STOP IT SHOW. And what the hell with her chemistry teacher?! Nobody talks like that (well, except maybe Richard Dawkins on Twitter). That whole baby shower was just anvil after anvil of evil stereotypes just in case you missed the point they were trying to make the first dozen or so times they made it. Jeez.

 

Regina and Eric - oh, lord. I just can't even with those two. At least I understand how they got entrapped and made bad choices, but still. 

 

I am glad that Bay had it out with Regina and finally said what the audience has been thinking for at least a season. I wish Regina had responded to it - hopefully next week she'll make a real response and not just a generic apology.

 

I honestly don't understand the timeline on this show - how did Lily go from just finding out to complete delivery? That's well over an entire semester's worth of time, but Daphne still seems to be a freshman, and that's after a first semester getting a D and being at least halfway through the second semester when Lily found out she was pregnant. 

[joanne3482]

I was really glad Daphne's professor told her that she can't hack it.And for very valid reasons. You can't successfully take basic chemistry, everything else will be so much harder. They were trying to parallel Lily's baby, but it isn't really the same.

[izabella]

I can't believe the writers had Grandma in Puerto Rico send a baby present.  Like she cares about the Kennishes!  She had almost zero interest and interaction with Bay.

[t7686]

I can't believe the writers had Grandma in Puerto Rico send a baby present.  Like she cares about the Kennishes!  She had almost zero interest and interaction with Bay.

Which is a whole other thing that bugs me about this show. So much wasted potential with the Grandmother and yet another thing you'd think Bay'd gain with the switch but then oddly... didn't. Daphne got a brother, grandmother, father, second mother and more. Bay biologically lost a brother and rejected by her birth mother and birth grandmother and lost her birth dad. Fun.  I'm so happy Bay finally said what many of the viewers have be thinking for seasons. Slow clap for her. 

[possibilities]

I'm glad the show finally admitted what we've all known about Bay's experience.

 

I think Katherine got so wrapped up in "supporting Lily and letting go despite wanting her to stay" that she stopped even noticing the signs that Lily was having doubts and might want her job back. I think it happens, when you are over-compensating for really wanting someone to do the opposite of what they are doing, and you've committed to supporting them regardless... it's like you just get super-focused on one track and supporting the decision you didn't want to support, that you don't notice or take seriously any doubts the person might have, for fear of developing false hope or that you'll flunk the supportiveness test. But really, it's not that much of a problem. The second Lily says she wants her job back, Melody will give it to her over keeping K as a temp, and K will be delighted, so it's not really a problem. It's only a problem because it's TV, where people never speak up til it's too late.

 

In a way, it's great that Toby is kind of meh on his career, and Lily is serious about hers. he can be the mostly full time parent, and in that case having his family and friend network close by is actually a better plan than having hers. They can spend summers in England, maybe. Academic schedules and telecommuting and so on....

 

Daphne might do better in school if she didn't spend as much time doing everything but study. I really don't think that they've done a good job of showing that she's trying very hard, let alone that she's incapable of the work.

[KaveDweller]

What was with the chemistry teacher being so shocked Daphne didn't inherit her deafness from her mother? Isn't it relatively normal that kids can be deaf/go deaf when their parents are hearing? Shouldn't a scientist know that?

 

I also can't believe that anyone would be saying things like that at a baby shower where they know the baby has downs syndrome. I am sure there are people who think like that, but they wouldn't say it at a venue like that.

 

I really wanted the Bay and Katherine spinoff show this entire episode, but that last minute got to me. I was with Bay right until the end, and I wonder if it was a weird glitch of a directing choice - when she wanted to talk to Katherine and John she looked like she was ready to throw up from being so upset, but then when Regina walked in she was all "ha HA!" defiant that she had gotten her revenge or whatever. I think she should have looked more sad but resigned to fit in better with what had just happened. So, I'm not sure what's going on with Bay.

 

Yeah, I do feel like Bay was being a little defiant, but I do think it was right to tell John and Katherine. They have a right to know who they are renting to. Regina made the choice to help Eric, so she should have to deal with the consequences.  I get that she was in love before she found out, and it's a sympathetic story, but it's still a crime.

[izabella]

What was with the chemistry teacher being so shocked Daphne didn't inherit her deafness from her mother? Isn't it relatively normal that kids can be deaf/go deaf when their parents are hearing? Shouldn't a scientist know that?

 

I also can't believe that anyone would be saying things like that at a baby shower where they know the baby has downs syndrome. I am sure there are people who think like that, but they wouldn't say it at a venue like that.

 

 

Yeah, I do feel like Bay was being a little defiant, but I do think it was right to tell John and Katherine. They have a right to know who they are renting to. Regina made the choice to help Eric, so she should have to deal with the consequences.  I get that she was in love before she found out, and it's a sympathetic story, but it's still a crime.

 

The way everyone was talking at that shower was surreal.  It's like they suddenly all lost their polite filter and just said what they were thinking. I think it's just clunky writing.  The writers had a point they wanted to make, and they weren't the least bit subtle or realistic about it.

 

As far as Bay, I read her look at the end as angry.  Bay is angry at Regina.   And she has every right to be angry, I think.  I'm surprised it took her this long, but then she gave Emmett a lot of room, too.

Edited October 20, 2015 by izabella

[MyRealName]

Kathryn went from being great in sticking up for baby during the shower to being an utter idiot with Lily.

 

What did Kathryn do that was wrong? We know Lily's having second thoughts, but from Kathryn's perspective, she's helping Lily and Melody and bringing in some extra money. If Lily decides to stay, Kathryn will happily give up the job to have her grandson in town.

 

Regina and Daphne: Sit Down and Shut Up.

 

I applaud Bay's rant but I'm not sure how to interpret her smirk at the end. I know she does have a tendency to be petty, but I really hope she didn't tell for revenge. It was the right thing to do so why ruin it with unnecessary drama?

[Everleigh]

Were we supposed to think Bay told John and Kathryn to spite Regina? Because I didn’t see it that way. Bay looked really upset before she told her parents, like she was wrestling with her conscience and wanting to tell the truth but knowing that if she does, she’ll be going against Regina’s wishes. I think Bay is just an honest person, a trait she obviously didn’t inherit from her biological mother, and probably felt she had to do the right thing and tell her parents the truth because they deserved to know since Eric and Will are living in their guest house, and due to Regina's dishonestly, Bay had unwittingly led a dangerous person onto her family’s property.

 

I would totally understand Bay wanting to hurt Regina after all the times Regina has callously hurt her, but I don’t think that’s what this was. I took that look between them at the end of the episode as more of Bay being done with Regina... obviously not for good because I'm sure they'll make up next episode, but I feel like right now Bay might be done giving Regina chances and keeping secrets for her. This isn’t the first time Regina has asked Bay to lie for her and I think Bay was feeling kind of over it, like why should she compromise herself for a woman who doesn’t respect her feelings and is never honest with her. 

 

And while I loved that Bay yet again called Regina out on her bullshit and on the fact that she still doesn’t treat Bay like a daughter and has always put Daphne first, this isn’t the first time Bay has had to have this conversation with Regina and it’s kind of heartbreaking to see Bay continuously beg this woman to treat her like a daughter and Regina just never seems to get it. Didn’t they already have this conversation earlier this season when Regina failed to mention her moving in with Eric? And they've had similar conversations in the past too, like in season 2 when Bay confronts Regina about not wanting to spend time with her when Regina moves into Angelo’s condo after coming home from rehab. And every time Bay brings the issue up, Regina is somehow shocked that Bay could feel this way, and then she apologizes and offers some lame excuse about how hard it’s been for her and then they hug and everything is alright again… until it’s not because Regina never changes. I honestly wouldn’t blame Bay for giving up on having a relationship with Regina at this point because I don't think Regina is ever going to be who Bay needs her to be, but I don't see Bay letting go of that hope any time soon. 

 

Was kind of hoping Professor Marrillo was going to come out and tell Daphne she doesn’t think Daphne’s cut out to be a doctor because Daphne’s just not smart enough, not because her deafness makes it harder. But of course, Daphne will triumph over all the nay-sayers who don’t recognize her awesomeness. I don’t even know why she needs to be a doctor, she’s already a saint. 

 

And I know Daphne was just trying to help Sharee and I do happen to agree that in Sharee is cut out for college and probably did just need to change schools, but I’m so tired of Daphne always being right and always being able to convince everyone that she’s right and ugh, just for once, why can’t something not go her way.

[stopeslite]

Oh yeah, about Daphne and Sharee - it's like the writers have totally forgotten that Daphne grew up in the poor section of town. She should not be so shocked and surprised that someone might not have all of the background and support needed for college! 

[Everleigh]

Maybe I just missed it but did they ever explain how Hope figured out who Regina was?

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think any explanation was given for how Hope found Regina.  Hope is still super sketchy, though, aside from the blackmail.  And that Regina just casually says that Will is safe with her, and Eric didn't say much of anything about being concerned for him or wanting to see him, is really bothering me.  She was bad enough that he disobeyed a court order and went on the run and is a fugitive, but he's just busy figuring ways to come up with money so she won't turn him in?  That doesn't track.  Poor kid.  I bet once she gets the cash, she'll abandon him.  But no worries, Regina loves him like a son.

 

 

What was with the chemistry teacher being so shocked Daphne didn't inherit her deafness from her mother? Isn't it relatively normal that kids can be deaf/go deaf when their parents are hearing? Shouldn't a scientist know that?

 

The way that came across to me was that the professor had assumed Daphne was genetically "defective" like the baby. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by ShadowFacts

[AzraelKay]

I can't believe the writers had Grandma in Puerto Rico send a baby present.  Like she cares about the Kennishes!  She had almost zero interest and interaction with Bay.

I thought that reference was supposed to be for Grandma Bonnie? She is Kathryn's mother & Toby's grandmother, and thus the great grandmother to the baby...

[Bobcatkitten]

So glad Bay finally had it out with Regina. She has never acted like a mother to Bay and has always favored Daphne. The lying is too much. Regina needs to hear all of it and face the consequences. 

 

So did Regina and Eric just decide in like five minutes to give up his kid and let her run away with him? They didn't seem at all concerned about that. Absolutely ridiculous. Also weird that suddenly Regina still has a bunch of money left - she said not quite so maybe $80,000 - doesn't square with other things in the show. 

 

Like why the hell is she not helping with tuition if she has "not quite" $100,000 sitting around?

Edited October 20, 2015 by scribe95

[Primetimer]

Things come out into the open in the latest episode.

Read the story

[izabella]

I thought that reference was supposed to be for Grandma Bonnie? She is Kathryn's mother & Toby's grandmother, and thus the great grandmother to the baby...

 

I was confused on that myself, but then the baby t-shirt said Puerto Rico on it, so figured they meant Regina's mother.

[Lsk02]

Kind of irritated that they totally bashed SLU (pronounced SLU not S. L. U.... no student or anyone who actually knows the school calls it that) just to give Daphne another savior story. It may be a private college, but there are tons of "scholarship kids" who are not treated any differently, no one cares who is paying what. Plus, since it is actually located near the inner city of St. Louis, it is extremely diverse. Way to give a great institution some totally false negative publicity in the middle of college recruiting season, ABC.

[izabella]

As a scholarship student myself, I could relate.  You end up feeling very out of place in so many ways, big and small, when you are surrounded by people who have a whole different life experience than you, not to mention the vast difference between their prep school educations and your own inner city one.  I can understand how she fell behind.  I hate St. Daphne saving the world, but she was right with this one - not all schools are the same and a different place could be a better fit.  (I graduated with honors and went on to grad school a couple years later, but it was not easy, especially having to work jobs the whole time, too.)

[Perfect Xero]

Can't believe that they had Sharee in an episode, catering the baby shower for Toby's child no less, and didn't even have them in the same room together.

[morakot]

Adrianna gave a pretty chintzy baby gift to her granddaughter's brother's child -- wasn't it basically the onsie equivalent of a tourist t-shirt (Someone in Puerto Rico loves you)?

[joanne3482]

I honestly thought it was from the Meredith Baxter Bierny grandparent and couldn't figure out why she was in Puerto Rico.  It was odd that Adrianna sent a gift at all.  I also didn't know why Regina was throwing the baby shower. She makes the least sense of anyone in the family.

[Eri]

It more than likely had to do with Regina making a gesture to reach out to her after they had a heart-to-heart talk in the previous episode.

 

Though they're trying to compartmentalize too much too soon with only one episode left.
 

 

I'm really hoping that Bay and Daphne find out about that and tell her off. I would like to see Bay then write her off. (I know Daphne won't; she has some of Regina's unattractive character traits).

 

I think if it implicates her further when she already has a record as a felon, I would. It's not just a matter of her lying to Bay but also endangering her life in the process of the lie. If the show really went down that path, the woman could have easily attacked/shot/run down Bay in the process of taking her kid in broad daylight like that especially if she knows where they now live. Regina's too careless and putting too much on the line for a guy she hardly knows. Have Bay and Daphne's run ins with the law taught her nothing by now? It seems like the police are involved with the Kennishes every season now.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Eri

[CoolMom]

I don't think any explanation was given for how Hope found Regina.  Hope is still super sketchy, though, aside from the blackmail.  And that Regina just casually says that Will is safe with her, and Eric didn't say much of anything about being concerned for him or wanting to see him, is really bothering me. 

 

Here's what I was hoping the writers were setting up.  From the time they introduced him I thought he was scamming Regina.  I was thinking that he and the "ex" wife were actually in con together.  That here was not really a custody issue it was just an elaborate set up. I was hoping Regina was going to go back to the coffee shop or her house and find all of them gone with her money.

 

But the previews don't look like that is the case which makes me a bit sad. 

[morakot]

I also didn't know why Regina was throwing the baby shower.

 

 

It was a shower for the mother (Lily) and grandmother (Kathryn). They cannot host the shower for themselves so Regina hosted as a close friend of the family. I guess it was for space reasons that it was held in the big house and not in the guest house.

[Bobcatkitten]

I have never heard of a shower for the grandmother. 

[Bringonthedrama]

What did Kathryn do that was wrong? We know Lily's having second thoughts, but from Kathryn's perspective, she's helping Lily and Melody and bringing in some extra money. If Lily decides to stay, Kathryn will happily give up the job to have her grandson in town.

 

It was the chipper way she flopped down and announced to Lily that she was helping Melody by taking Lily's job, just hours (?) after Lily told Melody she was quitting to go to London. As Lily said, she had worked hard to get where she is. Kathryn decided (from hearing Lily talk) that she wanted to be "a part of something" important/valuable. So she has a talk with Melody and just gets handed the job temporarily? How nice for Lily to hear -after the day she's had of the thoughts of guests about her child - that she's easily replaceable, and really fast.  Yes, Kathryn signs, but does she have any background in education at all? 

[Everleigh]

Here's what I was hoping the writers were setting up.  From the time they introduced him I thought he was scamming Regina.  I was thinking that he and the "ex" wife were actually in con together.  That here was not really a custody issue it was just an elaborate set up. I was hoping Regina was going to go back to the coffee shop or her house and find all of them gone with her money.

 

But the previews don't look like that is the case which makes me a bit sad. 

 

Ha, I was thinking the same thing earlier and it would certainly serve Regina right for being so careless with her own family's safety for the sake of this man she's known for less than a year, who is an admitted liar and kidnapper, but I doubt they'd go that way. Plus that would be really elaborate long con and I don't know if Eric has that in him...although it would explain how Hope found Regina.  

 

I have never heard of a shower for the grandmother. 

 

Me either. Is that a thing? Don't grandmothers usually throw the shower? 

 

So next episode is the season 4 finale and since the show has yet to be renewed for season 5, it's possible it could also serve as the series finale. I wonder if they set the episode up with that in mind. It's hard to imagine they could get all the characters and pieces in place for a satisfactory ending at this point. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Everleigh

[CleoCaesar]

This show's "disabilities are awesome, fuck science" stance is downright terrifying sometimes. Humanity SHOULD eradicate any and all genetic diseases. Having DS is NOT awesome. Being different on a genetic level is NOT good. I hate this show so much sometimes.

Oh and Daphne's so full of shit. If you can't hack Chemistry 101 (twice), you have no business in medical school. Sorry. I know that steps on Daphne's sense of entitlement and awesomeness and how her being different is so great and not at all an impediment to anything ever.

Of course they had to make the professor who dared to question Daphne's brilliance an evil villain with no sense of manners or basic social awareness. (Crap writing, show.)

[ChocButterfly]

Doesn't Toby's gf have a master or something in her field? At least I'm pretty sure she has a college degree, has some experience and has been working hard to get that position with Melody (she said so herself). Sooo....how on earth has Katheryn been offered the job when she knows absolutely NOTHING about it, has never worked in the field and has no accreditation for it whatsoever???? That most have been the stupidest part on the episode; actually it was so stupid it most be on the top 10 stupidities this show has pulled.

 

I was also hoping the professor wouldn't say Daphne is not cut to be a doctor because of her deafness. That was a cop out to make the professor a bigot, so Daphne would prove her wrong or whatever. In reality, she was right, if Daphne is struggling so much with a basic subject, she probably wouldn't cut it in the entire career. Even if she manages to graduate, she'd have crappy grades and be a mediocre doctor. Not everyone is good at everything. That doesn't mean Daphne is not smart enough, just that medicine may not be her thing. 

 

I can't quote here, but word to the poster that mentioned how Erick didn't even seem to care about his son. He was way more worried about going to prison. I really thought he was going to reject the deal cuz he wouldn't let his son stay with that crazy bitch, which supposedly was the reason for the kidnapping.

I also couldn't believe how stupid Regina is. Does she really think that after Hope blows off the money she won't blackmail them for more? Or send Erick to jail either way for revenge? And Erick was ok with letting her keep the kid as long as he doesn't go to jail?? Guess he wasn't so worried then when he first took the kid. If he really cared, he'd use that money to get himself  a good a lawyer. He'd do some time and fight to death for custody. Actually, that's what he should've done in the first place. If things were so bad as he said, then eventually he'd had been able to prove it. He could have recorded all episodes of neglect, he could've hired an investigator to prove Hope's bf was a dealer, he could've done so many things but kidnapping!!!

 

I loved Bay in this episode. She was totally right in telling her parents. From the moment that kid was kidnapped they should've called the police. Just think of the danger that Regina put her daughter through. Hope could've done anything to her,  and she still can since she still knows where they live. Shouldn't Regina be more worried about this?? I mean, the woman was so fucked up that Erick had to kidnapped his kid to keep him safe!!! Just imagine 5 years from now a junkie Hope knocking on the Kenishes door, threatening to hurt Bay if they don't give her money or something. And why should the Kenishes trust Eric's word? I'm still not convinced that he's a good guy. He seems like a piece of work, if you ask me. 

 

I fucking hate Regina. She makes such stupid choices that you'd think she's a teenager.

Edited October 21, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[ShadowFacts]

 

And why should the Kenishes trust Eric's word? I'm still not convinced that he's a good guy. He seems like a piece of work, if you ask me.

 

He's not only caring more about his own skin at the moment than he does about his son's welfare, he told Regina he was going out to get some more money because he has something on somebody, words to that effect.  If he went clean from all his gang activity a long time ago, who would he have in Kansas City to put the squeeze on?  He's only been there a short while.  He shouldn't have any such connections.  Even if he was a big deal in a nation-wide gang (better father than an addict mother?), he hasn't really cut ties if he can go out and tap into money. I do feel sorriest for Will, he has parents who don't prioritize him, and then there's pseudo-stepmom Regina.  He's probably more mature than the lot of them.  Sorry to have to pile on Regina, but Bay is right about her.  She specializes in not being honest, and messing up lives as a result.

[Jadzia]

Me either. Is that a thing? Don't grandmothers usually throw the shower? 

 

I was always told it was considered poor taste for a close family to host a shower, because you are basically trolling for gifts. I always heard that etiquette dictates it be a close friend or more distant relative.

 

I found the whole blackmail thing strange. I could see if the mother agreed to take the money in exchange for leaving him and the kid alone, but she takes the kid and wants $100K? The only thing he gets out of the deal is her not reporting him? He could just run off and change his name and not pay 100 grand so I don't really see that as being a good deal.

[Bobcatkitten]

Another complete character assassination in this episode in order to stir up drama - this time the professor. And seriously you met Lily once and came to the shower. Weird.

[ChocButterfly]

I found the whole blackmail thing strange. I could see if the mother agreed to take the money in exchange for leaving him and the kid alone, but she takes the kid and wants $100K? The only thing he gets out of the deal is her not reporting him? He could just run off and change his name and not pay 100 grand so I don't really see that as being a good deal.

Exactly! Like Erick is going to stay there anyway after Hope knows where he is.

 

This show's "disabilities are awesome, fuck science" stance is downright terrifying sometimes. Humanity SHOULD eradicate any and all genetic diseases. Having DS is NOT awesome.

 

Yeah. The problem with this whole approach of saying having DS is just being different (which I have seen a lot in disabilities groups) is they forget the whole health aspect of it and the dependence that individual will always have. The main problem is that a DS kid would probably never be able to live by himself. Yes, there are some DS individuals who can lead very independent lives, but the majority will always need, if not at least constant supervising, be taken care of. Is not just that they are "different", is what the hell are you going to do when you eventually die and there is no one else to take care of him?? Plus, no one wants to take care of a child forever. No one can, because you eventually get sick, need to work full time, want to change your life, whatever! This is a person who will always, forever and ever, be dependent on the parents. Toby may have family who'll help him, but at the end of the day, the grandparents will be too old and probably will need taken care of as well. You cannot count on aunts or nephews, because everyone has a life too. If they have another child it'll be an awful thing to pin it on to them that responsibility for life.

[izabella]

If they have another child it'll be an awful thing to pin it on to them that responsibility for life.

 

 

This.  Yes, the parents might make an informed decision and choice to care for their DS child forever, but their other children didn't sign up for that yet they will end up being responsible for their brother forever.  It's a big burden to place on someone who had no say in it.

 

They also glossed over the heart defects 50% of DS kids are born with, and the other medical complications which are ongoing.  That's not just "different."

[ShadowFacts]

Obviously the problem with the way they wrote the shower and the professor is that a person with a functioning brain wouldn't tell someone to their face (or their parent's) that they are defective and a terrible burden. None of her damn business, nobody asked her learned opinion. So, a pox on the writers for that.  They already covered the same ground when Lily was deciding whether to keep the baby.  I guess they needed another anvillicious way to say that Kathryn will be the bestest grandmother ever.  I do wonder if this show is going to survive the ABC Family rebranding that's coming up.

[joanne3482]

My mind first went to him doing a long con as well, but Regina seems like such small potatoes to pull a long con like that on. You'd want to go bigger I would assume. Now I'm assuming he's going to have her (Hope not her Regina) killed and take Will away.

 

My dad's sister had DS. She died when she was 19. By then she was already larger than her mother (my grandmother) and could (and did sometimes) physically hurt her. I worked in a group home for those with developmental disabilities, including DS.  They could live semi-independently. The one apartment I worked in, one had DS and the other just delays, but they both worked outside the home. In the evenings I was there to make sure they cooked an appropriate dinner and did their household chores. I slept over  but was only there in case of emergency. In the morning another staff member came and helped them make sure they left on time and ate an appropriate breakfast. Weekends we'd do what everyone else does - go shopping, movies, they'd see family, clean the house, etc. BUT it is still a lifelong situation.

 

What exactly is Lily's job? The show keeps implying it is something she's worked hard for and we are presuming she has a degree or something to have it, but I honestly have no idea what she does.

[ChocButterfly]

Obviously the problem with the way they wrote the shower and the professor is that a person with a functioning brain wouldn't tell someone to their face (or their parent's) that they are defective and a terrible burden. None of her damn business, nobody asked her learned opinion.

 

Seriously, no one, not even the most clueless person in the world, would ever talk like those people at the shower, specially the professor. Maybe only if they're on the spectrum. However, I do think the old lady who told Lily how she must be such a "special person" because God only send these special kids to very special people, and how it was a blessing and all that shit was sadly not that unreal. I've met people like that. They're right on with those who tell you at a funeral how "This is what God wanted, even though we may not understand his plan...blah, blah". You just want to punch them in the face, but you realize they may be incredibly just stupid, but well meaning.

Edited October 21, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[jammaker]

 

Yeah. The problem with this whole approach of saying having DS is just being different (which I have seen a lot in disabilities groups) is they forget the whole health aspect of it and the dependence that individual will always have.

 

 

This.  Yes, the parents might make an informed decision and choice to care for their DS child forever, but their other children didn't sign up for that yet they will end up being responsible for their brother forever.  It's a big burden to place on someone who had no say in it.

 

See, but what is the answer? To just abort everyone who has something medically wrong? What of children who can't be diagnosed in utero? Or people of any age who suffer a debilitating life event who then end up needing care for the remainder of their lives? Sooner or later, almost everyone becomes a burden on others, if by "burden" we mean "needing physical care". It's not about forgetting that fact, it's about accepting it.

 

Language matters, semantics matter. When the professor started going off about "eradicating", she was saying that Toby and Lily's son, the baby they were supposed to be celebrating shouldn't exist. Is not worthy of existing, because ... what? Because he will need extra care? And even if no one in real life would say that at a baby shower, people do think it, so in that regards - good on the writers for expressing it (albeit in a very clunky way). Lily of all people is not walking into this blindly, and I'm sure that while she loves her son, she would gladly support research to help mitigate the worst physical effects of DS. There's middle ground between "special angels" and "eradicate", but very few people successfully land there.

 

The woman that really confounded me was the train set lady. If she had known, she wouldn't have purchased a train set?  Does she think children with DS can't play with toys?

[Clemgo3165]

There was a whole lot of odd misinformation at that baby shower. I've known several people with DS and have been fortunate to be friends with a couple of them. DS kids cross a wide spectrum of impacts of the disorder. Some are fully able to function in adult society with minimal intervention, others need more help. You just can't lump everybody under one label and expect it to fit.

[izabella]

Language matters, semantics matter. When the professor started going off about "eradicating", she was saying that Toby and Lily's son, the baby they were supposed to be celebrating shouldn't exist. Is not worthy of existing, because ... what?

 

 

I'd venture to say that both Lily and Toby would have been happier if their baby didn't have DS in the first place, and if there had been a cure that would eradicate the genetic abnormality so their child, and others' children didn't have to be born with DS, they would wish that cure was already discovered.  She wasn't saying their son shouldn't exist; just that it would be great if one day no child and no parent had that lifetime diagnosis with its attendant difficulties.  We have no problem if people talk about curing cancer - why is a developmental problem so taboo to discuss potential and future cures?

 

The problem is there is no cure, their child has DS, they already accepted that, so random people at the baby shower shouldn't be spouting off about scientific cures.  The professor was being rude and insensitive, but that is the clunky writing for sure.

[CleoCaesar]

See, but what is the answer? To just abort everyone who has something medically wrong?

....yes? If it's something as serious as a genetic abnormality that will require lifelong care and health problems and most likely suffering for no good reason, yes. If it's treatable and doesn't affect quality of life in a significant way, probably not.

Humanity should be trying to improve the human condition, not glamorize its defects. Pushing the idea that knowingly going through with a DS pregnancy is the somehow the nobler, braver thing to do is irresponsible and frankly damaging. There will always be people with DS that wasn't diagnosed in utero. And the same goes for any horrific illness, like Tay-sachs.

I think the show went too far on this one.

[Scarlett45]

What I like best about this whole story line is that Lily is a Sib. I believe there's got to be a Sib in the writers room of SAB, because trust me, I've heard and seen everything Lily has. You have the people who speak as the professor did, others who spout "they are angels" and everything in between. Lily's had to hear about that her entire life dealing with her brother, of course it's a different thing when it's your own child, but I appreciate the fact that Lily of all people can form an opinion are those that lived it. And there are Sibs with view points that range from "eradicate xyz" to "special blessings" and everything in between.

[possibilities]

I think usually the people at a shower are closer friends, so they are more likely to know how to behave, but in general I can say with absolute certainty that people do say incredibly insulting things to disabled people and our loved ones, to our faces, as though there's no filter. So nothing that was said on the show sounded particularly unusual to me, because I've heard that stuff and worse.

 

What it did say though was that Lily really doesn't have close friends here, and that maybe Regina packed the invitation list with anyone she could round up, to make for a larger turnout? It would have been a sad event if the only people there were Bay, Daphne, Kathryn, Lily, Regina (immediate family) and Melody. It didn't seem to me that there was a single attendee Lily's age, who was a friend, and not a co-worker who barely knew her, or an acquaintance of Kathryn's from her extended network of Church Ladies. No wonder Lily wants to move back home to England. However long she's been here, she's met no one other than her boss, her boyfriend, and her bf's family.

 

I think the problem that disabled people have with the "eradicate it all" idea is that it is very selective in what it values and devalues, at the same time as painting us all as worthless or completely defined by some diagnosis, as though that was all we are. There are things I personally would not want to deal with and could see wanting to be able to "cure" or "screen for" or "eradicate"-- like Tay Sachs. But most other things are more of a mixed bag. Once you've known and loved enough people who get tagged with a "defective" label, you start to realize that many of them are treasures, while many so-called "normal, healthy" people are really not contributing anything to the world beyond taking up space, either. So who is the "worthless eater" and "burden to society"? The person with a disease who is wonderful, or the robust person who's a shithead? Most people are just average everyday folks, with joys and sorrows of various types, and not special in any world-changing way. The ones who "make a contribution" on a big scale are rare, and if we valued the rest equally, instead of looking for a blunt instrument to categorize and cull by, we might actually be a better society.

 

It's absolutely true that the structure of society right now is not geared for people who need certain kinds of assistance, but that is something that can be changed. We can create an economic system that makes good jobs out of meeting the needs of various people with disabilities, just as easily (and maybe more easily) than we can create "miracle cures" to wipe us out.

 

Also, if you want to have a real world example of someone supposedly with social skills telling someone else that people like her should be eradicated, and having it treated as perfectly acceptable behavior, read these Harriet McBryde Johnson articles. One is about her visit with Peter Singer, an Ivy League ethicist who believes that parents should be allowed to kill their infants (I'm talking about after they are born, so this is not an abortion conversation either), and the other is about how many people believe that people like Harriet can't have lives worth living. It happens all the time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/16/magazine/unspeakable-conversations.html?pagewanted=all

http://dsq-sds.org/article/view/338/424

 

So, while it may be shocking to others, who don't live with it and hear it everyday, for some of us, it's very nice to once in a while see this "better off dead" idea refuted. It's refreshing, because we get really worn out by the combination of apathy about our lives and passion to get rid of us, all of which could be channeled into getting to know us or solving actual problems, if we had the collective will. But we don't. So I get that it's harder to not fit in, and that some things are just really hard to deal with and maybe a few things would be better prevented. But that's a point of view that's expressed nearly everywhere. The possibility that our imaginations might be limited and that there could be value in looking at this situation in a different way needs the air time, I think. So I'm glad that SAB makes at least an effort to provide that.

[timimouse]

I really wanted the Bay and Katherine spinoff show this entire episode, but that last minute got to me. I was with Bay right until the end, and I wonder if it was a weird glitch of a directing choice - when she wanted to talk to Katherine and John she looked like she was ready to throw up from being so upset, but then when Regina walked in she was all "ha HA!" defiant that she had gotten her revenge or whatever. I think she should have looked more sad but resigned to fit in better with what had just happened. So, I'm not sure what's going on with Bay.

 

Everyone else on this show can go jump in a river. They were all terrible, every one of them. Daphne saves someone YET AGAIN OH MY GOD STOP IT SHOW. And what the hell with her chemistry teacher?! Nobody talks like that (well, except maybe Richard Dawkins on Twitter). That whole baby shower was just anvil after anvil of evil stereotypes just in case you missed the point they were trying to make the first dozen or so times they made it. Jeez.

 

Regina and Eric - oh, lord. I just can't even with those two. At least I understand how they got entrapped and made bad choices, but still. 

 

I am glad that Bay had it out with Regina and finally said what the audience has been thinking for at least a season. I wish Regina had responded to it - hopefully next week she'll make a real response and not just a generic apology.

 

I completely agree with you here for the most part. Bay's expression in that last scene threw me for a loop. What was THAT about?!?!? And yes, they were all pretty bad and I would totally push them in the river as they don't seem to know that they should jump.

 

I may have a pretty unpopular opinion here but that was THE WORST EPISODE OF THE SEASON! OMG! I was so annoyed! Who the hell behaves like that at a baby shower? What is with the whole "Daphne is everybody's cheerleader"? Whilst I understand why Bay would be upset, couldn't she stop for a second and try to understand why these things were being kept from her? The world is bigger than you honey. And lastly, WHY WAS THE ACTING SO BAD IN THIS EPISODE?!!??!?! Eric, Regina and Hope completely overdid it with the dramatics ("Where's my son?! She wants YOU to meet her!" "I'll DO it! We're in this together! I LOVE you!"..... **rolls eyes**). I will give Katherine kudos though. Her standing up for Lilly and baby was handled well. Except that in the real world, people wouldn't say those things aloud at a baby shower, even if they were thinking them. Especially people who are supposedly "classy". Money really doesn't buy class if that's the case. :-/

 

Also, clearly Sharee and Daphne haven't spoken for at least a year as she knew nothing about her life. Why would one little motivational speech from you deaf ex-friend who didn't care enough to try to keep in touch just lift you up all of a sudden and push you back to enrol in college? really? no, seriously? that's all it takes? 

 

I really hope next week's episode comes with a bang because this was a total let down for me.