S07.E02: Never Let Me Go

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When an impulsive decision by Damon threatens to unravel a carefully negotiated deal between Stefan and Lily, he has no choice but to make amends with his mother before things spiral further out of control. However, Lily remains one step ahead and carries out a harsh plan that hits Damon where it hurts most. Elsewhere, after returning to Whitmore Collage, Alaric turns to Bonnie for help with a mysterious and potentially dangerous artifact he has obtained, while Matt is forced into making a risky life or death decision. Meanwhile, Caroline, who finds herself a pawn in Lily and the heretics' plan for retribution, uncovers a shocking detail about Stefan's past.

 

Promo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BNiRaFjj1U

 

Clip:

[raytch]

That's an awful lot to cover in 40 mins.

I take it Enzo is no where to be seen this week?

[Bort]

Does he "also star"?

[slayer2]

How can Damon muster up any shock here? EVERYONE takes Caroline.

Edited October 15, 2015 by slayer2

[Like A Phoenix]

So, anyone know how to add "Stone" to the end of my username? (j/k, that thing's freaky.)

Enjoyed the ep, but a surprising amount of it felt a bit recycled - Caroline getting tortured with pencils - check! Alaric did that back in season 3's "Before Sunset". Bonnie stopping Matt's heart - check! She already did that to Jeremy in season 3's... "Before Sunset". Hmmm. Now I enjoyed "Before Sunset", but really.

[Luciano]

Even off the show, Elena can't stop getting kidnapped.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

 

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[slayer2]

Even off the show, Elena can't stop getting kidnapped.

Yeah, they really need to let go of the Elena angle or the show is going to tank. ND was fantastic at what she did but she left, people leave in life, it happens, greener pastures and all that. Move on, before everyone else does too. No Bamon in this episode and another desperate attempt to pitch Steroline means I'm skipping this week and hoping for better next time. Sheesh, Writers who know how to tank a show for $200 please, Alex.

Post Script: There is no reason on earth or in any prison world why sweet BonBon should give a fuck about Alaric or his lazy, self-important pain.

Edited October 16, 2015 by slayer2

[chrisvee]

I can't wait until Damon, Bonnie, and Stefan kill Lily and these freakin' Originals!Redux.

[Writing Wrongs]

I can't wait until Damon, Bonnie, and Stefan kill Lily and these freakin' Originals!Redux.

I don't know if I can deal with a whole season of Crazy Mama, The Mean Girls and Mute Guy. I wish Damon would just rip out her heart already.

 

So I wonder if we know Caroline's future fiancé?

[chrisvee]

I've never loathed a character as much as Mama Salvatore. Kai was funny. Lily is utterly humorless.

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I agree, Lily is horrible. She's not got anything that makes me even love to hate her, I just hate her. Even Mama Mikaelson was somewhat entertaining with her speeches and talking in all caps!

[PinkRibbons]

I have got to know, why in the hell would Lily want to be considered a Salvatore? And have her new kids buried among the Salvatores? She wasn't a Salvatore and has no relation to any of them aside from Stefan and Damon. Also, the whole taking away toys and hurting Stefan to punish Damon thing? That's messed up. I'm starting to be surprised that either Salvatore boy is as sane as they are (and even more so at the time of their changing when they both seemed to be pretty sweet but ultimately kind of dim guys).

 

Things I kept expecting to hear but didn't happen:

 

1. Damon never broke the vase, Stefan did it and Damon took the rap (unless he did say this? I had trouble in hearing the last conversation between brothers about Lily's punishment tactics.)

 

2. That Caroline's fiancee is Matt. I've been on the Steroline wagon since season 2, so I'm hoping for a fake-out -- that Stefan is using an assumed name and that her hearing his real one was some kind of code that she responded to in code -- "I never want to hear that name again" = "I'm on my way". But I doubt that, honestly. Cheap twist though, writers.

[MrsMommy]

I don't understand why these guys done call eli Rebecca and klaus after all they are like the strongest vampires right? And it would incorporate them into the show a bit.

[Love]

I have to agree with the majority...Lily and her group of heretics need to go. There is nothing likeable about any of them. I know most hate him, but I want to keep Enzo. I like how he acknowledged why he turned on Caroline and Damon. Plus, on a shallow note, he's cute & I love his voice.

What I hated even more than the heretic story though was the Alaric one. I really wish the character had stayed dead at this point.

I am watching this show this season mostly now for Damon, Stefan & their relationship as brothers.

Not sure how I feel about the 3 years flash forwards.

If I had to pick a heretic, I like Valerie the best. Even if she did trick Caroline. She may even be my pick for the 3 years later shooter.

[HunterHunted]

I've never loathed a character as much as Mama Salvatore. Kai was funny. Lily is utterly humorless.

Lily and the witchpires are awful. Smug, humorless, and isolated. The thing I loved about the originals is that they were social. They could be charming and funny and interact with everyone or they could be monstrous and destructive. The witchpires just stare into each others eyes all day.

Literally the most interesting Enzo has been in a while is when he admitted he wants to get it on with his maker/mother Lily.

[Artsda]

Well we know Stefan's not the fiancee, but the fiancee knows they can't return to Mystic Falls. Interesting, wonder if the fiancee is someone we know. 

 

Liked the mention of Tyler being with Jeremy, but really Damon living and moving into Tyler's house? He shouldn't be allowed inside.

[GaT]

Dear God, please bring back Elena & get rid of all the friggin' heretics & momma bitch. This show sucks now, and I can't believe they went for the "Caroline gets captured & tortured" plot AGAIN. How many times are you going to go there?

 

 

2. That Caroline's fiancee is Matt.

I hope so, because if it turns out to be Enzo, the show writers are going to be spending the rest of their lives hiding from me.

[rue721]

I think Caroline's fiance must be a human, because of this Vervain Skin thing?

 

When Bonnie "killed" Matt, did she put him into transition? I figured that the heretics must have either healed Matt or put him into transition after they attacked him, because how else could he wake up seemingly without a mark on him? So then when Bonnie revived him after six minutes of him being "dead" and just seemed kind of cranky and out of sorts, it made me pretty suspicious.

 

This episode did the impossible and actually made me feel bad for Damon. That whole story about his father using the switch to punish him but Lily knowing that he'd respond better to psychological warfare was just so messed up. What's her problem?

 

I did like that Stefan acted so put-upon and blasé about needing to get Caroline back from her while minimizing trouble, though. Stefan cracks me up. He actually does act like someone whose entire family is made up of egocentric hotheads. I enjoy Lily being the current Big Bad (the heretics, not so much). But I miss Kai, too. I'm counting on the Phoenix Stone to bring him back.

 

Literally the most interesting Enzo has been in a while is when he admitted he wants to get it on with his

maker/mother Lily.

 

Agreed!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Good to know that the Salvatore mansion basement is still the #1 spot to bring kidnap victims for torture!

 

I am guessing this is only the first of many empire waisted shirts that Caroline will be wearing until they move to hiding her behind boxes or putting her in a mystical coma when her pregnancy really begins to show.

 

Remember when Enzo used to be interesting and amusing? That seems like a million years ago. His presence just makes me miss Kai even more.

 

Why did Bonnie and Damon's plan require Matt to die? Why couldn't he just invite Damon and Stefan inside the house? Does the owner have to actually be inside the house to invite a vampire in? Couldn't he just be near the front door?

 

And why would Alaric use his classroom to drop the fake phoenix stone in acid? Like he couldn't do that somewhere more private?

 

When Stefan complained that he could have gotten Caroline out if Damon hadn't left, I just rolled my eyes. If Stefan hadn't wasted time getting Caroline a jacket and then calling Damon, he could have gotten Caroline out of the house before Enzo redeeded the house to Lucy. All he had to do was wrap a blanket around her and jump out the window instead of farting around the house for so long. And let's just say Damon hadn't left - how did Stefan imagine the two of them getting back into the house to rescue Caroline once they weren't allowed in the house anymore?

 

So I wonder if we know Caroline's future fiancé?

Caroline said that he knows they can't go back to Mystic Falls so in theory it should be someone from MF, but it's possible that it's some new guy and she just told him that she can't go back to her hometown and he mistakenly thought that she would go back to see it before their wedding. But if it is someone we already know, by process of elimination it isn't Stefan based on that last phone call. And it can't be Damon because duh. So that leaves Matt, Tyler, Jeremy, Alaric, Enzo, and I guess Klaus (maybe she rekindles her love of pony paintings).

[Like A Phoenix]

Lily and the witchpires are awful. Smug, humorless, and isolated. The thing I loved about the originals is that they were social. They could be charming and funny and interact with everyone or they could be monstrous and destructive. The witchpires just stare into each others eyes all day.

Literally the most interesting Enzo has been in a while is when he admitted he wants to get it on with his maker/mother Lily.

Agreed with all of the above. The heretics are cardboard cut-out villains, and I'm guessing we're supposed to find their old-timey ways charming. Well, we already did that with the Originals, and I hated them too.

I'm still not sure how I feel about the 'resurrect Jo' storyline. It's a weird one, but at the same time I get how someone who's been resurrected as many times as Alaric would have difficulty in just letting someone go. It must feel like a pretty cruel joke to cheat death that many times yourself, but the woman you love can't even get a second chance.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm still not sure how I feel about the 'resurrect Jo' storyline. It's a weird one, but at the same time I get how someone who's been resurrected as many times as Alaric would have difficulty in just letting someone go. It must feel like a pretty cruel joke to cheat death that many times yourself, but the woman you love can't even get a second chance.

I agree that it must be really frustrating for Alaric to think about how many times he and the other members of the Mystic Falls gang have died and come back to life while Jo died only once. But at the same time, he has seen that magic always has a price (TM Rumpelstiltskin), magic has consequences, spells don't always work the way you think they will, etc. That alone would make me hesitant to use magic to bring someone back from the dead, and that's even before you take into account the evil stone. Man, Bonnie is going to be so mad when she finds out that he used it!

[raytch]

Even off the show, Elena can't stop getting kidnapped.

This forever!

[chrisvee]

These heretics make the Originals look mature by comparison. And Lily clucking over them like a mother hen while expressing loathing for her own children annoys me.

I'm not surprised they took that route with Enzo but Lily reacting like a blushing virgin was a bit ridiculous. The weird air of incest does not improve that coupling.

I like the idea of a coded message by Caroline.

Can't believe they found another reason to keep Steroline apart and it's due to one of Mama's chicks having an unrequited passion for Stefan. We know that Caroline isn't the Hunter. But could it be Matt? Wasn't Bonnie getting visions of those exes in the skin when she brought him back? I'm so confused.

I'm so onboard with the Damon and Stefan show but these heretics are wearing me out. Maybe they all die and the real problem becomes the Hunter which forces them all into hiding.

Edited October 16, 2015 by chrisvee

[Morrigan2575]

I'm with everyone else, the Heretics are the worst villains, they're not fun/entertaining, they're just boring.

 

About the time jump.  Was Caroline still a Vampire or human?  She didn't seem to have the super hearing or speed so I wasn't sure.  I'm also guessing she was dead at the end?

 

Hating Enzo and Ric storylines but I still enjoy everything Bonnie related

[Primetimer]

So bummed that Caroline doesn't become the party planner she was meant to be!

Read the story

[Captain Asshat]

Even off the show, Elena can't stop getting kidnapped.

Thank you! While I was watching, I exclaimed, "She's not even here anymore, and they STILL have to rescue her!"

[Cattitude]

While I'm on the pile of ugh awful heretics they really aren't the worst b/c the travelers were- THE WORST!

At least Mama Salvatore has family and history in MF.

She really is just awful though, makes me like Giuseppe so much more. At least he "fathered" his OWN children even if he was strict and mean.

My big issue with Lily is I don't get how she feels so motherly towards these people. I mean they had like 20 yrs before prison world then if her explanation is correct they desiccated pretty soon after so she was really alone not mothering them most of these decades. She doesn't appear to be much older than they are so I just don't get a motherly vibe. Maybe if Plec would have made some kind of sire type bond.

Damon was almost grown and Stefan was 10ish when she turned so she was their mother for many years. I don't get how loving them would remind her of an abusive husband? Like these heretics aren't evil too. The whole explaination makes no sense. Why would heretics allow a plain old vampire be their leader?

And as someone else said she wants to live in the Salvatore house and use the family crypt but shuns her natural children?

I really don't know how much of a mother being totally horrible to her children I can take, I never liked the Mikaelson mother either.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Cattitude

[Kathemy]

Well, Lily Salvatore has to die.

 

Actually, that's not even enough. She needs to be slowly tortured to death over a period of no less than three months.

[Cattitude]

My main concern is it seems none of them had desire/can be in MF in 3 yrs so that doesn't bode well for Lily being gone. It more seems like she somehow wins or something. boo!

 

I was slightly confused about Stefan's reaction to Caroline being kidnapped. I thought he was supposed to love her and it be deeper than he felt for Elena yet he seemed so calm and blase about her being held. I mean when Damon learned Lily could get to Elena's body he dropped everything and went right over to the crypt. When Stefan learned Caroline was kidnapped he went over and bawled out Damon and stood around while he waited for Damon to try and get her back. THEN when that didn't work they made the little plan. WTF?

 

I'm starting to think Bonnie will indeed somehow be the hunter b/c that stone activated something weird in her. I am also slightly afraid that Jo may channel through Bonnie instead of coming to life herself. Not a fan of Jo, why did this have to be the girlfriend Ric cared so much about.

 

I like Enzo but was also creeped out about the romantic vibe with Lily. I think he may be Caroline's fiance. I mean if she was getting married it would cruel to marry a mortal when she doesn't age and would have to move every 10 yrs or so. I would bet she has to be marrying another vampire.

I think Enzo and Caroline have better chemistry than she and Stefan.

 

Matt is getting so much learned helplessness he is hard to watch anymore. Something needs to change with his story.

[franopy]

No matter how hard I try, I cannot stand to watch Lily and her not so merry band of annoying heretics, so I had to stop watching just after the first Damon/Lily confrontation at the Salvatore mansion. Partly because like Cattitude

I really don't know how much of a mother being totally horrible to her children I can take, I never liked the Mikaelson mother either.

Plus I need my villains to have either charm, charisma or some at least vaguely interesting feature and they and Mother Meanest are just plain awful.

I would really like to see how the characters I care for get on and I actually quite like it when stories jump back and forth between the presence and glimpses of a future, but I just can't do it. Apparently forcing myself through that travellers mess has obliterated my capacity to cope with parts I am not crazy about to get to the good stuff.

[chrisvee]

If you're going to have pretty much omnipotent villains who it will take an entire season to defeat, they'd better have charisma. So far we have a mute guy, a dead guy, two bratty girls, and someone crushing on Stefan. Yikes.

It's very hard to sympathize with a mother who hates her children because of who their father is -- especially when she goes out and becomes a mass murderer who adopts a family of mass murderers.

They need to stop inserting Elena in every episode. And Matt has become useless.

I do love the Bonnie/Damon/Stefan vibe though.

[slayer2]

If they think Elena is so fundamental to the plot then they need to recast her, they did it on The Originals with basically everybody. The few people still watching this fakakta show aren't doing it for Delena so TVD writers need to get their heads out of their asses and come up with a new plan before the CW "13 episode and finales" them. I'm fairly certain the majority of remaining viewers would be happy to never hear the words "Caroline and Elena have been kidnapped" ever again.

Also: the one black heretic is mute, I see you, show. I see you.

[Aeryn13]

And here I thought nothing could beat the Travellers as my least favourite bad guys, enter Lily and the Heretics. Lily must be the most self-involved character in the entire TVD-universe. And that is freaking saying something. Not only does she shun her own children to the utmost degree and points out how her merry vampire band are her true family at every opportunity, she seems pathologically incapable to understand why others wouldn`t be riding that crazy train.

 

No, she and the fake-Salvatore are entitled to the house and the family crypt and so on and so forth. Damon and Stefan are actually Salvatores yet she acts like she can decide to throw them out of the family lineage on her sayso. Die, die and please die.

 

The Heretics themselves are such an obvious plug for faux-Originals circa Season 3. And sure, the Originals had various villanous plots but they could also be fun and charming. Dinner parties and social gatherings were to be had amongst both groups. Coins were thrown. Ponies were drawn. Quarterbacks were wooed. The heretics so far are simply dull. When they stand behind Lily with creepy stares and monotone about their hard, hard lives, I just want them to go away.

 

I have no problem with a good villain staying on but they need to make watching fun. Katherine did. I laughed my ass off about the five million failed "Kill Klaus" attempts in Season 3. Kai was a hoot. Those people make watching a drag. Don`t know if I can stand 20 more episodes of them. At least kill Lily off. Please.     

[ElectricBoogaloo]

ITA - villains like Elijah, Kai, and Katherine were amusing even when they were being menacing. They had charm, personality, and a sense of humor. Lily and the heretics are dull and boring. Even with all their witch-pire powers, they don't seem particularly dangerous either.

Coins were thrown. Ponies were drawn.

Ha! It's funny because it's true! Those were the good old days when a quarter could seem terrifying and the writers were capable of creating a character I liked despite seeing him in only one episode (Slater).

[GaT]

Remember when Enzo used to be interesting and amusing?

Nope, I believe that must be another show you're thinking of.

[PinkRibbons]

Nope, I believe that must be another show you're thinking of.

I can't even remember when they kept betraying him.

[TheHappinessHotel]

About the time jump. Was Caroline still a Vampire or human? She didn't seem to have the super hearing or speed so I wasn't sure. I'm also guessing she was dead at the end?

These time jumps are the most intriguing parts of the show. If Klaus is not her fiancé then I hope it is Enzo. I see no chemistry with Stefan.

She did she mortal though! She didn't hear any of that coming or that her assistant was hurt.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

If Caroline is mortal three years in the future, does that mean there's ANOTHER cure for vampirism and we will be stuck with another quest to find it this season? Please say no! I was willing to handwave Caroline not hearing the phone calls because she was working and therefore focused on that instead of tuning in on all the other conversations in the building. But for her not to hear her assistant get shot in the throat when he's standing right behind her? Or hell, not hearing the wooden stakes flying through the air!

[immortalfrieza]

Even off the show, Elena can't stop getting kidnapped.

And now unfortunately they have the perfect excuse to avoid killing the heretics the whole season when our protagonists could have easily killed them at pretty much any time up to that point. Also, I always figured that since Elena is gone that means the next female that's in a romance is going to be the one that gets kidnapped all the time, therefore Caroline will now be the token hostage that will be kidnapped whenever the villains want to royally screw up whatever plan the protagonists have that otherwise would have gone off without a hitch over and over again, just like Elena used to and still is.

 

Why did Bonnie and Damon's plan require Matt to die? Why couldn't he just invite Damon and Stefan inside the house? Does the owner have to actually be inside the house to invite a vampire in? Couldn't he just be near the front door?

 

When Stefan complained that he could have gotten Caroline out if Damon hadn't left, I just rolled my eyes. If Stefan hadn't wasted time getting Caroline a jacket and then calling Damon, he could have gotten Caroline out of the house before Enzo redeeded the house to Lucy. All he had to do was wrap a blanket around her and jump out the window instead of farting around the house for so long. And let's just say Damon hadn't left - how did Stefan imagine the two of them getting back into the house to rescue Caroline once they weren't allowed in the house anymore?

The whole "redeeding" thing makes me think that maybe Lily fudged the records or something and Matt never actually owned the house and Lucy did the whole time, magicking away the barrier for a bit to screw with them while they did what they did during this episode, thus the heretics were going to have the group agonizing over the decision to kill Matt then eventually doing it while it wasn't necessary, two birds with one stone.

 

 

And why would Alaric use his classroom to drop the fake phoenix stone in acid? Like he couldn't do that somewhere more private?

Or why even bother with the whole thing when everybody knew he was never going to actually destroy the stone anyway, including him?

 

And Matt has become useless.

More like Matt has always BEEN useless from the very beginning. To my knowledge Matt has never contributed in ANY way in this show but to get in trouble and have to be saved over and over again, all while constantly complaining about how much his life sucks and how much better off he would be if he left town but doesn't, the same with a certain human amateur psychologist on a certain other show. In fact, all the bog standard human characters on this and Originals don't seem to ever do anything but get in the way constantly until they turn into vampires or something and thus are no longer completely helpless. However, even Jeremy, Elena, and Ric at least actually tried to DO something when they were normal run of the mill humans, all Matt ever does and has ever done is complain. I would actually welcome Matt getting together with Caroline at this point, at least then he'd actually have a purpose on this show even if it's only just to have someone for Caroline to agonize over.

 

If Caroline is mortal three years in the future, does that mean there's ANOTHER cure for vampirism and we will be stuck with another quest to find it this season? Please say no! I was willing to handwave Caroline not hearing the phone calls because she was working and therefore focused on that instead of tuning in on all the other conversations in the building. But for her not to hear her assistant get shot in the throat when he's standing right behind her? Or hell, not hearing the wooden stakes flying through the air!

I'd bet money Caroline is still a vampire, it wouldn't be the first nor will it be the last time on this show the writers outright ignore what vampires should be capable of. The writers treat vampires as actual vampires or as basically standard humans on this show whichever is most convenient to the plot, constantly forgetting and ignoring the powers vampires are SUPPOSED to have and/or making them too stupid and/or preoccupied to actually use them when they should. How else could these heretics avoid getting slaughtered day one?

 

I don't like the flash forwards though, all they do is hint at a future plot while ruining the rest by spoiling who is going to make it through the present sections of the episode no worse for wear.

[rue721]

I mean when Damon learned Lily could get to Elena's body he dropped everything and went right over to the crypt. When Stefan learned Caroline was kidnapped he went over and bawled out Damon and stood around while he waited for Damon to try and get her back. THEN when that didn't work they made the little plan. WTF?

 

Stefan seemed to think that Lily was just putting Damon "on punishment" by taking Caroline. I think he legitimately thought that if Damon showed up and was all contrite, Lily would take him "off punishment" and release her.

 

Has Lily ever talked to Stefan like she talked to Damon in this episode? Maybe Stefan doesn't really understand that, as far as Lily is concerned, they're Dead To Her?

 

Another weird thing about that story Lily told Damon about forcing him to confess to breaking the vase:  if Lily hated Giuseppe Salvatore because he was abusive, then why did she purposefully/consciously decide to be EVEN WORSE to her kids than he was? I mean, in that story, Giuseppe beat Damon bloody, and Lily's reaction was, "pffffft, *I* know how to get a confession out of him." That doesn't seem like the reaction of somebody who thought Giuseppe was unacceptably abusive? Or, I guess she just had a problem with him being abusive to *her* specifically?

 

I actually like Matt. I like that he's Mr. Responsible.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I think that Stefan and Damon would be better off if they accepted what Klaus said about Esther last season: A mother cares for her children. A monster does not. Once you accept she is the latter, you stop expecting the former.

 

To Lily, the heretics are her children, not Stefan and Damon. She has no love for her biological children. Their only connection is their past and she is using her knowledge of their childhoods against them. They should have killed her when they had the chance. Now they (and we) are stuck with her because she is the only one who knows where Elena's body is hidden.

[Aeryn13]

Esther was as horrilbe as they come but in her twisted ploys, she still thought she was doing her children a favour. I have no idea why or how Lily managed to sever any emotional links she ever had to her children/previous loved ones.  No vampire I ever saw on either this show or Originals managed that, not a one. Klaus daggered his siblings all over the centuries but he did not emotionally disengage from either Elijah or Rebekah. Katherine still felt love for her daughter she had only seen once. Even Kai once admitted he "only" gutted Jo because he had a soft sport for her. So really, even a complete sociopath had some inkling of family bonds.

 

Equally I have no idea why or how Lily went all gaga over a bunch of murderous strangers she met when they were all adults. Is she reverse-sire-bonded to them or something? Of course I have no idea why they keep following her either. Their emotional motivation doesn`t make sense.  

 

And yeah, that little story totally made it sound like Lily was hunky-dory with her husband being abusive to their children but is all butthurt that he was abusive to her. How narcissistic is that woman? 

 

This is a show that set the gold standard for tribal mentality, "us first", self-involvement and extreme narcissim and yet Lily shattered all previously held records in that regard. I did not think that was possible.   

[raytch]

While I'm on the pile of ugh awful heretics they really aren't the worst b/c the travelers were- THE WORST!

At least Mama Salvatore has family and history in MF.

She really is just awful though, makes me like Giuseppe so much more. At least he "fathered" his OWN children even if he was strict and mean.

My big issue with Lily is I don't get how she feels so motherly towards these people. I mean they had like 20 yrs before prison world then if her explanation is correct they desiccated pretty soon after so she was really alone not mothering them most of these decades. She doesn't appear to be much older than they are so I just don't get a motherly vibe. Maybe if Plec would have made some kind of sire type bond.

Damon was almost grown and Stefan was 10ish when she turned so she was their mother for many years. I don't get how loving them would remind her of an abusive husband? Like these heretics aren't evil too. The whole explaination makes no sense. Why would heretics allow a plain old vampire be their leader?

And as someone else said she wants to live in the Salvatore house and use the family crypt but shuns her natural children?

I really don't know how much of a mother being totally horrible to her children I can take, I never liked the Mikaelson mother either.

I am wildly impressed that you remember Papa Salvatore's first name

[ByTor]

I guess I'm the lone wolf, with the heretics the show has FINALLY managed to create villains that I love to hate.  I am very intrigued with the flash forwards as well, they make me look forward to the next show to see how they play out.  Honestly, after watching this, for the 1st time I found myself wishing this is not the final season (even though I'm guessing it is).

[tricknasty]

I don't understand the appeal of Mystic Falls for the Heretics. Why are they there? The town has been evacuated and you only get the occasional trespasser to eat. Why not move to a large city for the buffet it would provide? It can't be sentimentality since Mama Salvatore feels nothing for anyone named Salvatore.

Edited October 17, 2015 by tricknasty

[Luciano]

I guess I'm the lone wolf, with the heretics the show has FINALLY managed to create villains that I love to hate.

I think the three women are entertaining enough, but Lily bores the hell out of me. I have no opinion on the one man, since he doesn't do or say anything. Enzo, to me, sucks to the point that not even his looks are enough to not groan through his screen time.

[Bort]

I think the three women are entertaining enough, but Lily bores the hell out of me. I have no opinion on the one man, since he doesn't do or say anything. Enzo, to me, sucks to the point that not even his looks are enough to not groan through his screen time.

I agree with this. The three female heretics I'm finding intriguing so fine, they can stick around. The mute one could disappear and I doubt I would notice. If Lily disappeared, I'd be happy because, wow, she's just plain crazypants and not even in an interesting way. Her fixation on the heretics being her family just makes no sense at all to the point where the only conclusion for me is that she's nuttier than squirrel shit.

[poppy-]

So is the "3 years in the future" vampire hunter Bonnie or Jo?

I wonder if the mute one is mute because then they can just pay him as an extra?

 

Oh, I bet he is from the Valerie / Stefan 1863 storyline, which, I hope not.

[raytch]

Well, that escalated pretty quickly!

Last week's episode had me thinking it's messy but maybe that's because the first episode of every season is always messy, but this was a lot worse...

We seem to be heading towards some major rehash of old plots. I like the characters interacting with one another, but that's not really enough to hold the show.

 

Did Enzo seriously fucking play the guitar by the chimney? I completely blocked that part out of my memory until this morning I remembered it for some reason.

Please let's never do that again. 

Also: the one black heretic is mute, I see you, show. I see you.

 

Did you also notice that the Heretics consist of a mean girls lesbian couple, a mute black guy, a crazy obsessive ex girlfriend, and a beaten up housewife?

I have no idea what to make of this... but couldn't help but notice it this episode.

Another thing, didn't Bonnie seal the cemetery with Elena's coffin with some really strong magic? Because, when they put Elena there, they must have thought oh what if a siphoner ever comes along and sucks the magic out of here like Kai did not too many episodes which was a big deal because that's how they all got to set foot in Mystic Falls in the first place.