Hawaii 5-0 In the Media

[Artsda]

5K+ Production deal sounds too low to walk away from the show. 

I wondered if they went in together they would have worked out a better deal? Or what about the leads? The BBT cast offered pay cuts of their own salaries to give to the supporting 2 actresses that were negotiating. 

 

[fishcakes]

12 hours ago, blackwing said:

I do agree that Alex O'Loughlin has become the lead.  But I also feel that this is not how the show was billed at the very start.  Sure, this was a reboot of the classic Jack Lord show, and Jack Lord was undoubtedly the sole lead of his show.  The character of Danny Williams as played by James MacArthur was unquestionably a supporting sidekick role.  The Steve McGarrett character was central to the reboot, but all of the four main characters were versions of the originals.

I will forever be annoyed that they did a reboot instead of a sequel. The original plan for the new series was that McGarrett would be the half Native Hawaiian son of Steve McGarrett and that Duke would be the head of 5-0. They could easily have created a show that would honor the original series and better reflect the racial makeup of the state -- something the original 5-0 did very well -- but they chose not to. There was really no reason to make O'Loughlin the undisputed lead this time around; Jack Lord was the lead because he was one of the creators of the show, became Executive Producer early on in its run (and this was when the EP title meant something and wasn't just handed out to every actor in the series as a negotiating tactic), and from all accounts ruled the show with an iron fist and was egotistical AF. Hell, he had Al Harrington fired because he didn't think Ben Kokua should be taller than McGarrett. That said, he was integral to the show both in front of and behind the camera and was always conscious of using the show to showcase the state and to boost tourism. Alex O'Loughlin, charming though his abs may be, is an actor and that's it.

 

12 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'd be really interested to hear what Alex and Scott have to say about all of this.  After seven years of working together and being this team, I would be interested to see if they supported Grace and Daniel.  I find it hard to believe that after this show made stars out of a dud like Alex O'Loughlin and a C list actor like Scott Cahn that they couldn't even find it in themselves to support their friends and castmates, or at least offer to give up some of their salary in order to make things more fair.  They are multimillionaires many times over because of this show.

Heh. I agree about O'Loughlin. After 5-0 ends, he'll do a few action movies that no one will see and then maybe in a few years do a series on the CW. Caan is a harder case to me, though. He's a good actor, but he's a character actor. He's talented but he doesn't have the charisma or presence of his dad. He'll always work, but he should probably not be making too many demands. He's basically a stockier, more bandy-legged Rance Howard. No shame in that.

 

11 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Optically, I understand the point you're making, but I think there's also the issue of time.  Scott's present deal with the 5 episode reduction has been in place for a bit.  It didn't happen while Grace and Daniel were negotiating.  Like I said above, I'm surprised that Scott got it.  Since we're talking about fairness, it also seems unfair to me to lock CBS into potential deal with Daniel and Grace based on a deal that Scott signed during an earlier time frame. 

The producers and the network knew when they made the deal with Caan that this would impact negotiations with other actors in the future. In the Variety article that @BW Manilowe linked to above, CBS even says they needed to adhere to the pay disparity "for precedent's sake," meaning they didn't want other cast members later citing DDK and Park's deal in their own negotiations, but this is a transparent excuse. There are no other cast members positioned to make the favored nations argument; Chi McBride's role is comparable to that of Park, DDK, and Caan, but he hasn't been with the show since the beginning, and everyone else is clearly supporting. Besides, the show probably only has a season or two more to go at most so it likely wouldn't even come up again. They can't cite the potential precedential impact of a deal with Park and DDK now, while ignoring the actual precedent of Caan's past deal.

 

11 hours ago, Magnumfangirl said:

The problem with this whole discussion is that nobody knows anything and nobody ever will.  It's all a lot of assumptions based on zero facts.   

It's one reasonable assumption based on known facts and the seven-year history of the show. I'm sure there are some who will never believe race played a part unless CBS holds a press conference and the entire board of directors says, "oh, we're paying them less because they're Chinese or Korean or whatever," but in general that's not how discrimination works.

 

4 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

If DDK was offered a "significant" pay raise which was barely enough to give him a salary 10%/15% lower than AOL's (and not $5,000, come on, CBS), then how much less was he originally getting? CBS doesn't even realize they're making themselves sound even worse.

Ha, you know whoever made that statement is all proud of himself and thinking he nailed it, while his assistant can't stop sadly shaking her head.

[BW Manilowe]

1 hour ago, Artsda said:

5K+ Production deal sounds too low to walk away from the show. 

I wondered if they went in together they would have worked out a better deal? Or what about the leads? The BBT cast offered pay cuts of their own salaries to give to the supporting 2 actresses that were negotiating. 

 

Here's the link to the column @Artsda posted the quoted Tweet about:

http://variety.com/2017/tv/columns/hawaii-five-0-daniel-dae-kim-grace-park-cbs-parity-1202488093/#respond

[Ohmo]

Quote

They can't cite the potential precedential impact of a deal with Park and DDK now, while ignoring the actual precedent of Caan's past deal.

But from a CBS perspective, what else can you do?  I agree that Scott's deal sets precedent, but if you're at CBS and you realize, "Crap, we should not have made that deal with Scott," giving similar deals to Daniel and Grace only serves to entrench the precedent more.  As a poster on TVLine astutely pointed out, where does it end? (And I'm not just talking about H50.)  There has to remain some definition between leading roles and supporting roles, and I think networks need to be blunt with actors from the beginning. "This is a supporting role" or "This is a lead role."  "You may get a raise, but it will be a raise within those parameters."

I think that's why CBS offered Daniel the development deal...it's like a sports contract.  The money is X, but the incentives or benefits are Y and Z.  CBS is trying to re-establish parameters.

This also makes me think of Tom Brady, who is paid something like $500K.  Maybe it's 1 million, but his deal is loaded with incentives.

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

Sure, I never watched Lost or BSG, but I know they're both popular.  That wasn't the point that I was making.  I was responding to the statement that Alex was a "nobody" at the time he was cast.  I don't think that's an accurate statement.

In terms of Grace and Daniel's popularity, yes, they were/are popular for those shows, but that doesn't make the roles of Chin and Kono lead roles.   They are supporting roles played by actors with a lot of popularity who chose those roles for whatever reasons that they did.  Michael Weatherly was popular on Dark Angel and from his soap days, but his role as Tony was supporting to Gibbs.  Jorge Garcia was also on Lost, but his current role is supporting to the character of Steve.  Popularity is a measuring stick when you're talking similar roles, but Steve and Chin are not similar, nor are Steve and Kono.  Whoever chose to play them, no matter what their name recognition, was choosing to take a supporting role, which pays less than a lead role.

I submit that he was a nobody because he was the lead in two consecutive failed series.  The cancellations may or may not be necessarily his fault, but they certainly didn't add to his reputation.  If I was a casting agent, and I had a choice between a bankable, proven, successful actor and someone that had been on two cancelled shows, I know I wouldn't necessarily choose the failure.  He benefitted from the fact that the show was a reboot of a known show and that it was set in Hawaii.  And compared to the other three actors, he was the least well known, so whether he was a nobody or a nobody relative to him, my point is still the same.  He was the least famous of the four and therefore whatever following he had shouldn't have translated into him getting automatically paid more than the others.

As far as Grace and Daniel "choosing" to take these roles.  I still think the show was promoted as an ensemble from the beginning.  Many of the promo photos (like the one posted on this page above) feature all four actors.  Alex's character had higher rank than the others, but there's no reason to believe that Daniel's character was automatically a supporting role any more than Scott's was.  Chin Ho Kelly and Steve McGarrett had known each other for years (they went to the same school and Chin was a few years older than Steve) and Chin was an experienced police officer.  Danny Williams was a transplant detective from New Jersey.  So why is the role of Danny a lead role but Chin is supporting? 

I guess the bottom line to me is that even though we don't necessarily know how these roles were pitched to them, again, as an Asian actor, they probably don't get as many opportunities to choose from as their white counterparts.  How many Asians do you see in significant roles on an American TV drama?  And how many times do you see an Asian actor as the sole lead role?  The only ones I can think of are "Vanishing Son" with Russell Wong and "Martial Law" with Sammo Hung.  As for co-lead roles, I'd say Ming Na Wen and Chloe Bennet as the lead females on "Agents of SHIELD" and Lucy Liu on "Elementary".  There's also "Quantico" with Priyanka Chopra, but I'd distinguish South Asian from East Asian.  As an Asian actor, there just aren't as many choices which is maybe why Grace and Daniel took whatever roles on this show they could get.

[Ohmo]

Quote

I guess the bottom line to me is that even though we don't necessarily know how these roles were pitched to them, again, as an Asian actor, they probably don't get as many opportunities to choose from as their white counterparts.  How many Asians do you see in significant roles on an American TV drama?  And how many times do you see an Asian actor as the sole lead role?  The only ones I can think of are "Vanishing Son" with Russell Wong and "Martial Law" with Sammo Hung.  As for co-lead roles, I'd say Ming Na Wen and Chloe Bennet as the lead females on "Agents of SHIELD" and Lucy Liu on "Elementary".  There's also "Quantico" with Priyanka Chopra, but I'd distinguish South Asian from East Asian.  As an Asian actor, there just aren't as many choices which is maybe why Grace and Daniel took whatever roles on this show they could get.

I understand what you're saying, and your "Elementary" example is spot-on because the time to deal with parity is at the beginning.  Are Holmes and Watson both lead roles?  Is there pay parity?  Then the actor in question has to make a decision as to what is acceptable to him or her.  If in Daniel's next opportunity, he's up for a lead, you better believe this issue comes up. 

In the H50 situation, however, that ship has long-since sailed, in my opinion, because the character of Chin is a supporting character, no matter who plays him.  Alex could be green with purple polka dots and if he were playing Steve, I believe that he would still be entitled to more money than whomever was playing the supporting role of Chin.  The injustice that you are referring to cannot be addressed by this particular conversation because it has now become a matter of who did more work over the years, not who should have been asked to do the work.  Different, but related conversations.  Lead actors do more work than supporting actors.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Ohmo

[ganesh]

25 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

This also makes me think of Tom Brady, who is paid something like $500K.  Maybe it's 1 million, but his deal is loaded with incentives.

Brady is actually the "lead" on the team, and he took less money than market value in order to free money up so the organization could keep and acquire "supporting" players. It's more technically correct if AOL and Caan gave up some of their salary to retain the others on the show. 

FWIW, I knew all of the actors *except* AOL from other things. Both the guys from Lost, BSG, Heros, even Grover was on a ton of stuff I've seen. That's not a criticism of AOL's abilities as an actor, but suddenly all this "lead" and "supporting" talk now seems underhanded when the show was clearly billed as an ensemble from the start, and each of the four have had multiple featured storylines.

[LotusFlower]

48 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

But from a CBS perspective, what else can you do?  I agree that Scott's deal sets precedent, but if you're at CBS and you realize, "Crap, we should not have made that deal with Scott," giving similar deals to Daniel and Grace only serves to entrench the precedent more. 

But CBS is the one that made the mistake, if you're agreeing that Scott's role is a supporting character, and yet they agreed to pay him as much as Alex.  If they care about diversity and improving and diversifying their all-white, all-male tv line-up like they claim they do, then they can acknowledge this mistake and make the same deals for Grace and Daniel.  Speaking of precedent, that would be a great way to put their money where their mouth is.  

[BW Manilowe]

For what it's worth, at least in S1 I've read Scott made $80,000 per episode while Alex made $100,000. So, at least at 1 point they didn't even have pay parity despite apparently being considered co-leads.

This is a new article from The Hollywood Reporter about the situation:

Hawaii Five-0 Star Exits Spark Asian-American Concern: "Racial Hierarchy" Remains "Intact"

Edited July 6, 2017 by BW Manilowe
To fix the included link.

[Ohmo]

26 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

But CBS is the one that made the mistake,

I absolutely agree with this, but I also think about two sayings that my sister and my late grandmother often now/used to say.

"Several things can simultaneously be true at once."

You're right, if it were up to me, Scott would have a) never gotten that deal or b) if he did, that would have changed his status enough so there was some definition between Scott and Alex.  But that is done.  I can't do anything about it, but that doesn't mean that I can't also think that doing the same thing again for Grace and Daniel isn't also a bad idea...because then it just keeps "getting done" for this person or that person...until there is no differentiation between lead and supporting roles...which would be a big problem of its own.

"Who told you the world is fair?"

Yup. Scott got something that I would not have given him, but it was not my decision to give it to him.  That was not fair to Daniel, but I believe that giving Daniel lead pay for supporting responsibilities will also potentially create something "unfair" for someone else in the future. Whatever happened before or since, I believe there has to be a difference between lead role and supporting role.

So, I wish Daniel well, I understand his decision, I hope he is offered a lead role one day, but I'm also OK with the decision that CBS made.

[LotusFlower]

6 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I absolutely agree with this, but I also think about two sayings that my sister and my late grandmother often now/used to say.

"Several things can simultaneously be true at once."

You're right, if it were up to me, Scott would have a) never gotten that deal or b) if he did, that would have changed his status enough so there was some definition between Scott and Alex.  But that is done.  I can't do anything about it, but that doesn't mean that I can't also think that doing the same thing again for Grace and Daniel isn't also a bad idea...because then it just keeps "getting done" for this person or that person...until there is no differentiation between lead and supporting roles...which would be a big problem of its own.

"Who told you the world is fair?"

Yup. Scott got something that I would not have given him, but it was not my decision to give it to him.  That was not fair to Daniel, but I believe that giving Daniel lead pay for supporting responsibilities will also potentially create something "unfair" for someone else in the future. Whatever happened before or since, I believe there has to be a difference between lead role and supporting role.

So, I wish Daniel well, I understand his decision, I hope he is offered a lead role one day, but I'm also OK with the decision that CBS made.

Just because Scott's deal is "done" and they "can't do anything about it" now doesn't mean they can't give equal deals to Daniel and Grace.  Your approach to this issue is all about lead actor vs. supporting, while ignoring the racial issue.  It's the affirmative action argument all over again - white people with power say that bumping a POC up "isn't fair" because decisions should be based on merit alone (in this case - supporting vs. lead).  But if you care about diversifying your network, which CBS claims it does, than you have to make these kinds of moves.

[Ohmo]

@LotusFlower, I think we've reached the land of "agree to disagree."  Thanks for the discussion.

[ennui]

15 hours ago, jhlipton said:

if you don't want to be called a racist, don't do racist things!

Define racist things? Anyone who's white and breathing gets labeled a racist. It's the last card in the deck. 

[LotusFlower]

14 minutes ago, ennui said:

Define racist things?

Different standards for POC vs. Caucasians.

[blackwing]

6 minutes ago, ennui said:

Define racist things? Anyone who's white and breathing gets labeled a racist. It's the last card in the deck. 

I disagree with the suggestion that everyone who is white is called racist.  There are plenty of white people who aren't racist.

Racism = discriminating against somebody on the basis of race.  CBS is alarmed that commentators and the media are suggesting that Kim and Park's exits from the show are due to racism.

Well, let's see:

1)  The two white guys get paid more than the two Asians.  

2)  One of the white guys has become the lead of what was originally pitched as an ensemble show so would likely deserve more money.

3)  The other white guy doesn't want to work as much so he got a pass to skip work about 20 to 25% of the time.

4)  This other white guy demanded that he retain second billing on the show over the two Asians, even though he's not there 20 to 25% of the time and they are there full time.

5)  This other white guy demanded the same amount of money per episode as the lead white guy.

6)  CBS agreed, because they viewed this other white guy as an integral part of the show.

7)  This other white guy's role on the show is arguably just as much of a supporting role as the two Asian's roles.

8)  The two Asians asked to be paid the same way as the other white guy.  

9)  CBS refused, and issued a statement wishing the two Asians well.

 

Racism is treating people doing the same job differently because of their race.  Grace and Daniel have the same role as Scott on the show. Yet CBS did not treat them the same.  It doesn't matter that Scott's deal was done some months or years ago.  Grace and Daniel are more committed to the show than Scott yet Scott ends up getting paid more.  At the time Scott did his deal, they valued him and acquiesced to his demands because they needed to keep the other white guy to play off the lead white guy.  When Grace and Daniel ask for the same pay deal, CBS shows that they don't value them the same way.

CBS can protest all it wants, but it's hard not to see the racism at work here.

[ennui]

Just now, blackwing said:

I disagree with the suggestion that everyone who is white is called racist.  There are plenty of white people who aren't racist.

Lots of people who aren't racist get called racist.  

I think this H50 debacle is about money. The losing side chose to make it about race.  

[LotusFlower]

1 minute ago, ennui said:

Lots of people who aren't racist get called racist.  

I think this H50 debacle is about money. The losing side chose to make it about race.  

Why broaden this out and make this about "all" white people?  Let's just focus on the players in this story - the execs at CBS are being called racist because of their lily-white tv lineup and hiring and firing decisions.  If the shoe fits...

As for money vs. race, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[ganesh]

8 minutes ago, blackwing said:

7)  This other white guy's role on the show is arguably just as much of a supporting role as the two Asian's roles.

To add: Danny had storylines that were entirely separate from the main cast. At least the feature storylines for Chin or Kono were more integrated into the show. 

I don't think the intent of the network was based on race, but again, optics. This is kind of an institutional, systemic problem that's pervasive in many organizations and needs to be addressed. 

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, fishcakes said:

It's one reasonable assumption based on known facts and the seven-year history of the show. I'm sure there are some who will never believe race played a part unless CBS holds a press conference and the entire board of directors says, "oh, we're paying them less because they're Chinese or Korean or whatever," but in general that's not how discrimination works.

Systemic or status quo racism is harder to point out, harder for "I am not a racist" people to see, and much harder to correct than blatant racism. 

3 hours ago, Ohmo said:

But from a CBS perspective, what else can you do?  I agree that Scott's deal sets precedent, but if you're at CBS and you realize, "Crap, we should not have made that deal with Scott," giving similar deals to Daniel and Grace only serves to entrench the precedent more. 

It would have been so simple for CBS to bypass this "precedent" BS -- say that Kim started as a "supporting" player but has become a necessary and vital lead and that his pay will be adjusted accordingly.  Boom. Done.

Other actors have risen and fallen from recurring to lead or vice versa all the time, sometimes mid-season.  Saying "Well, this is how they started; can't go back, nuh uh" is pure BS.

2 hours ago, Ohmo said:

In the H50 situation, however, that ship has long-since sailed, in my opinion, because the character of Chin is a supporting character, no matter who plays him.

Again, that may have been how it started, but do you James Marsters should have been payed as a recurring character after Season 2 of Buffy?  I'm sure he was payed as lead in spite of him being hired as a one-and-done character.  This happens all the time, and CBS knows it.

16 minutes ago, ennui said:

Lots of people who aren't racist get called racist. 

A lot of people who claim not to be racist support racist acts, just as people who claim not to be sexist voted for a p**y-grabber.  Maybe they should consider why their actions (not them) are being called racist instead of taking offense all the time.

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

To add: Danny had storylines that were entirely separate from the main cast. At least the feature storylines for Chin or Kono were more integrated into the show.

Kono's sex trafficking had her as much separate as as most of Steve's or Danny's storylines.  And that's just the most recent.

[ennui]

49 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

the execs at CBS are being called racist because of their lily-white tv lineup and hiring and firing decisions. 

TV is about ratings and money and advertising. And I don't think anyone was fired. 

[ganesh]

39 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Kono's sex trafficking had her as much separate as as most of Steve's or Danny's storylines.  And that's just the most recent.

Ok, so one storyline. The point is they've contributed as much as one of the "leads" of the show that is regularly absent and several separate storylines. 

[BW Manilowe]

Entertainment Weekly: Hawaii Five-0 Boss Speaks Out on Daniel Dae Kim, Grace Park Controversy

Peter Lenkov writes his own open letter to the "Hawaii Five-0 Community" regarding the departures of DDK & Grace P. from the cast.

[LotusFlower]

22 minutes ago, ennui said:

TV is about ratings and money and advertising. And I don't think anyone was fired. 

This is how people in power speak.  And yes, Kim and Park were fired. 

[LotusFlower]

50 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Systemic or status quo racism is harder to point out, harder for "I am not a racist" people to see, and much harder to correct than blatant racism. 

It would have been so simple for CBS to bypass this "precedent" BS -- say that Kim started as a "supporting" player but has become a necessary and vital lead and that his pay will be adjusted accordingly.  Boom. Done.

Other actors have risen and fallen from recurring to lead or vice versa all the time, sometimes mid-season.  Saying "Well, this is how they started; can't go back, nuh uh" is pure BS.

Again, that may have been how it started, but do you James Marsters should have been payed as a recurring character after Season 2 of Buffy?  I'm sure he was payed as lead in spite of him being hired as a one-and-done character.  This happens all the time, and CBS knows it.

A lot of people who claim not to be racist support racist acts, just as people who claim not to be sexist voted for a p**y-grabber.  Maybe they should consider why their actions (not them) are being called racist instead of taking offense all the time.

Kono's sex trafficking had her as much separate as as most of Steve's or Danny's storylines.  And that's just the most recent.

I couldn't like this post more if I tried.  Every point!

Just wanted to add Jesse (Aaron Paul) on Breaking Bad to your ex. of actors getting hired for a certain role, and then the role (and status, including pay) changing over time.  Not sure if you watched it, but he was a huge star of the show over the course of its run (2nd only to Bryan Cranston), and he started out in season 1 as a character they were going to kill off. 

[blackwing]

16 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Entertainment Weekly: Hawaii Five-0 Boss Speaks Out on Daniel Dae Kim, Grace Park Controversy

Peter Lenkov writes his own open letter to the "Hawaii Five-0 Community" regarding the departures of DDK & Grace P. from the cast.

Peter Lenkov can go piss up a rope.  Just gotta love the way he makes himself out to be the martyr... "we offered Daniel and Grace unprecedented raises and they chose to walk away".  The sod doesn't seem to realise that the fact that they had to be offered these supposedly "unprecedented" raises shows how much of a pay disparity there was in the first place.

Where are Alex and Scott in all of this?  For all the talk about how "irreplaceable" and "ohana" Daniel and Grace are and how "heartbreaking" it is to lose them... I sure don't see Alex and Scott standing by them.  It seems like the final deal that Daniel and Grace were offered was something anywhere between 5 to 15% less per episode (number varies depending on who you believe).  But Alex and Scott apparently also get some share in the back end profits of the show, and it doesn't seem like this final deal included that.

Alex and Scott could easily have agreed that they want to keep the ohana together and offer to make up the difference from their salaries to equalise everyone.  But they haven't.  Some ohana.  Maybe they both realise that this is going to be the last year of the show (considering that Alex said he is done after Season 8) so they don't care if Daniel and Grace leave since the show is on its way out anyways.

Then Lenkov goes on with the classic "I'm not a racist" protest by listing all of the Asian people that have been in the cast over the years.  It's just like when someone gets accused of using a gay slur and says "I'm not homophobic, I have lots of gay friends!!!!!"  Peter Lenkov, actions speak louder than words.  Protest all you want.  I don't believe you.

[BW Manilowe]

19 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Peter Lenkov can go piss up a rope.  Just gotta love the way he makes himself out to be the martyr... "we offered Daniel and Grace unprecedented raises and they chose to walk away".  The sod doesn't seem to realise that the fact that they had to be offered these supposedly "unprecedented" raises shows how much of a pay disparity there was in the first place.

Where are Alex and Scott in all of this?  For all the talk about how "irreplaceable" and "ohana" Daniel and Grace are and how "heartbreaking" it is to lose them... I sure don't see Alex and Scott standing by them.  It seems like the final deal that Daniel and Grace were offered was something anywhere between 5 to 15% less per episode (number varies depending on who you believe).  But Alex and Scott apparently also get some share in the back end profits of the show, and it doesn't seem like this final deal included that.

Alex and Scott could easily have agreed that they want to keep the ohana together and offer to make up the difference from their salaries to equalise everyone.  But they haven't.  Some ohana.  Maybe they both realise that this is going to be the last year of the show (considering that Alex said he is done after Season 8) so they don't care if Daniel and Grace leave since the show is on its way out anyways.

Then Lenkov goes on with the classic "I'm not a racist" protest by listing all of the Asian people that have been in the cast over the years.  It's just like when someone gets accused of using a gay slur and says "I'm not homophobic, I have lots of gay friends!!!!!"  Peter Lenkov, actions speak louder than words.  Protest all you want.  I don't believe you.

In his most recent interview, published in CBS' Watch! magazine in May (& done in February, I think), Alex said he now feels physically like he could do another season or 2--he seems to be willing not to close the door on the show after this coming season any longer (assuming CBS wants to keep it going, of course). Mainly because he's been undergoing stem cell treatments for whatever the most dire of his show-related injuries are & they seem to be making him feel physically better than he has in a long time. The original statement, where he said he thought he'd be done by the end of S8, was published in Australian media in mid-October, last year. People are entitled to change their minds in that length of time, in my opinion. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by BW Manilowe
To add a comment & a link.

[MissLucas]

This whole situation is the outcome of several blunders TPTB made over the past couple of years. This show has always been promoted and presented as an ensemble show with the added bonus of diversity. Yet it also hugely relied on elements of the classical buddy cop genre completely ignoring that you can't have it both ways. 

They also ignored what the majority of shows/movies doing the same thing over the past three decades considered: make the central odd couple bi-racial (or bi-gendered). Even this show's 'cousin' NCIS:LA followed that rule. (The most noticeable exception currently on tv is probably Supernatural and that's because that show takes the bro in 'bromance' literally.)

Then they allowed one partner of that buddy-bromance to drop out of the show for several episodes each season while still pretending this was the core dynamic and thereby not acknowledging the effort the other regular cast-members put into the show. Imagine one of the Winchesters dropping out that many episodes each season (yeah, I know - we got occasionally only one Winchester because the other went to hell/purgatory whatever). That's simply not working and they should have readjusted the show accordingly -  with regards to billing, salaries AND writing. But they didn't - they tried to tried to have their cake and eat it and we all know how that normally ends.

[Ohmo]

Hawaii Five-0 Boss: Grace Park and Daniel Dae Kim 'Chose to Move On' Despite 'Unprecedented Raises'

[LotusFlower]

15 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

In his most recent interview, published in CBS' Watch! magazine in May, Alex said he now feels physically like he could do another season or 2--he seems to be willing not to close the door on the show after this coming season any longer.......People are entitled to change their minds in that length of time, in my opinion. 

Yes, if you're white and male.

[LotusFlower]

33 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Then Lenkov goes on with the classic "I'm not a racist" protest by listing all of the Asian people that have been in the cast over the years.

While not mentioning that the two "leads" are white.  Classic racism - hiring a few non-white actors as tokens.

[dirtydi]

That last statement from Lenkov, could have been edited.  I thought his first statement was enough.

[Princess Lucky]

4 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I understand what you're saying, and your "Elementary" example is spot-on because the time to deal with parity is at the beginning.  Are Holmes and Watson both lead roles?  Is there pay parity?  Then the actor in question has to make a decision as to what is acceptable to him or her.  If in Daniel's next opportunity, he's up for a lead, you better believe this issue comes up.

As a matter of fact, Lucy Liu was making almost double of what Jonny Lee Miller was making, at least in the first few seasons of Elementary (and I believe she is still paid more, though the disparity is smaller now). JLM was the "lead" but he was far less famous (though still exponentially more famous than AOL). Lucy Liu was a movie star. According to this tumblr post citing a TV Guide article, LL started with $125,000 and JLM with $65,000, and a google search on more recent data tells me LL is now making $130,000 and JLM about $100,000.

So it can be done. CBS can even do it. When they want to. Which makes the H50 situation even more glaring in terms of race and their mistreatment of Asian actors.

Speaking of, I noticed Lenkov said:

Quote

No one wanted to see them go — they are irreplaceable.

And yet they will be magically replaced by actors who cost far less money.

Also, "unprecedented raises" which still resulted in lower salaries than those of their white co-stars? I guess Grace Park was getting paid in room and board.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Princess Lucky

[LotusFlower]

5 minutes ago, Princess Lucky said:

Also, "unprecedented raises" which still resulted in lower salaries than those of their white co-stars?

Yup.  And such a gross way to make them seem greedy.

[Princess Lucky]

5 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

For what it's worth, at least in S1 I've read Scott made $80,000 per episode while Alex made $100,000. So, at least at 1 point they didn't even have pay parity despite apparently being considered co-leads.

This is a new article from The Hollywood Reporter about the situation:

Hawaii Five-0 Star Exits Spark Asian-American Concern: "Racial Hierarchy" Remains "Intact"

Wait, so AOL and SC were able to secure raises despite the fact their contracts weren't up? They renegotiated at some point between S1 and now? Randomly? While the Asian leads were only able to renegotiate 7 years in, and only when their contracts were up? And Scott Caan was somehow able to both request and get the same salary as the "lead"? As well as a reduced schedule? Good for him. CBS can sure be accomodating when they want to.

Also, I went through that THR piece and, among the many supportive tweets, I saw this one:

At least one H50 cast member (former, now, of course) is speaking in DDK's favor.

I am really going to miss Chin, Kono and Adam. They weren't always given much to do (Chin was, for the most part) but the actors brought depth into the characters even when the writing did not.

[FilmTVGeek80]

3 hours ago, Princess Lucky said:

So it can be done. CBS can even do it. When they want to. Which makes the H50 situation even more glaring in terms of race and their mistreatment of Asian actors.

I find it a little ironic that you're talking about CBS and their mistreatment of Asian actors and the example you used is from a show where the Asian actor is treated far better (monetarily) than the white lead (or co-lead.)

 

3 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

While not mentioning that the two "leads" are white.  Classic racism - hiring a few non-white actors as tokens.

Classic racism is a show where (up until recently) the bulk of the cast were non-white actors? I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone (or the leader of a show) being accused of racism to point out how off-balance that statement is given the racial make-up of the supporting players and guest actors over the years. 

 

Quote

Alex and Scott could easily have agreed that they want to keep the ohana together and offer to make up the difference from their salaries to equalise everyone.  But they haven't.  Some ohana.  Maybe they both realise that this is going to be the last year of the show (considering that Alex said he is done after Season 8) so they don't care if Daniel and Grace leave since the show is on its way out anyways.

2

While I love when actors - like on Friends and TBBT stick up for each other when it comes to contracts, I think it's a bit unfair to act like Alex and Scott are doing something wrong by not falling on their sword to cut their salaries. That's not required of them and it's not on them to fix this situation.

Edited July 7, 2017 by FilmTVGeek80

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

 

 

Classic racism is a show where (up until recently) the bulk of the cast were non-white actors? I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone (or the leader of a show) being accused of racism to point out how off-balance that statement is given the racial make-up of the supporting players and guest actors over the years. 

Well when the non whites work for the white minority. Yes that how it used to be when the guy from Scotland Yard goes to the colonies and takes over from the local police. In this case while thinking outside the box to flip Kono's gender he keeps the 1968 organization where junior white guy Detective Sergeant, from New Jersey an original colony commands senior men of color one from the last state a Lieutenant and a Captain in McGarrett's absence.

[Ohmo]

Quote

I find it a little ironic that you're talking about CBS and their mistreatment of Asian actors and the example you used is from a show where the Asian actor is treated far better (monetarily) than the white lead (or co-lead.)

Lucy Liu is also playing a lead role opposite Johnny Lee Miller, much like the dynamic on Bones or Castle.  Chin and Kono are like Hodgins and Angela or Ryan and Esposito (just below the featured pair of actors)  Johnny Lee Miller was already a lead actor in that series...Sherlock to Liu's Holmes.   He wasn't gaining new character status...just more money within his lead status.  You can present Liu's Watson to me over Park's Kono and Kim's Chin.  All three are Asian actors. I'd still pay Lucy more money based on the lead role that she is playing.

[LotusFlower]

46 minutes ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

Classic racism is a show where (up until recently) the bulk of the cast were non-white actors? I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone (or the leader of a show) being accused of racism to point out how off-balance that statement is given the racial make-up of the supporting players and guest actors over the years. 

It's the height of tone-deaf patronizing for a white, male EP to pat himself on the back for throwing breadcrumbs at non-white actors while giving his fellow white men lead role status and salary and back-end deals. 

[Artsda]

So the only cast member to speak out so far is Ian? Sad we're losing him too, based on that brothers in arms hashtag he's not going to return.

[pivot]

29 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

For those asking why Alex and Scott did not step up nor speak out for their co-stars, this cast has a long history of friction so I never thought for one second they were going to stick their necks out for Daniel and Grace. I'm aware some people here will defend Alex and/or Scott with their dying breath but those rumblings have been around for a very long time. That the show lasted as long as it did even with the bad relationships is a testament to its loyal fans. Lauren German, who portrayed the badly received Lori but went on to success with Chicago Fire and Lucifer, mentioned the backstage troubles and politics of the Hawaii Five-O set in a couple of interviews. This is coming from an actress who gets along great with her current cast and still maintains great relationships with her former Chicago Fire castmembers.

Oh and the show and network inferring that Daniel and Grace were not fired but chose to leave... Ah yes, sounds very familiar. I remember an ex-boyfriend telling everyone how I broke up with him. That I was the one who chose to end the relationship, not him. It was true. I chose to walk away after he made it clear to me he was not looking for a serious relationship and wasn't sure he could give me what I wanted. ? I see you, show! Same scummy move.

This has nothing to do with money and everything to do with respect for yourself. I applaud Daniel and Grace for walking away and will support them by no longer watching the show. Just because you don't think something is racist doesn't mean it's not racist. What the show did is extremely questionable and in very bad taste. 

Any links or additional info on the backstage rumbling? I was starting to wonder about that as Scott and Alex have both said zero since the announcement. 

While Lauren German was not popular on this show, I am loving her on Lucifier. So for this viewer, it worked out well that German was let go from Hawaii 5-0

Edited July 7, 2017 by pivot

[Princess Lucky]

10 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

I find it a little ironic that you're talking about CBS and their mistreatment of Asian actors and the example you used is from a show where the Asian actor is treated far better (monetarily) than the white lead (or co-lead.)

That's exactly why I said it, though. Because I wanted to highlight the fact people (including myself) aren't calling CBS racist (or misogynistic) or no reason, or even all the time (just the majority of the time, heh). We are only pointing out problematic situations, like TBBT, and Criminal Minds, and H50, and NCIS. But there are examples of CBS doing the right thing, as well, like Elementary. And I was also the one to point out that a black actor was let go from Criminal Minds, just this season, but I personally didn't think race played a part in that (especially since he was replaced by an Asian actor, and Criminal Minds has a pretty "diverse" cast, for lack of a better word). Meaning, I'm not making blanket statements. I'm pointing out both the good and the bad. And the H50 situation is bad.

Quote

Classic racism is a show where (up until recently) the bulk of the cast were non-white actors? I think it's perfectly acceptable for someone (or the leader of a show) being accused of racism to point out how off-balance that statement is given the racial make-up of the supporting players and guest actors over the years. 

The bulk of the non-white actors were apparently making breadcrumbs, though. That's a problem in itself. As is the fact the white actors were allowed to renegotiate whenever they wanted, and get very generous raises and scheduling freedom, but the Asian actors had to sit through a 7-year contract, low salary and all, until they could ask for something more (and not get it, of course). Again, if an "unprecedented" raise wasn't enough to even remotely achieve parity, that says a lot. And Lenkov is willfully ignoring that.

Quote

While I love when actors - like on Friends and TBBT stick up for each other when it comes to contracts, I think it's a bit unfair to act like Alex and Scott are doing something wrong by not falling on their sword to cut their salaries. That's not required of them and it's not on them to fix this situation.

I do agree with that. It's not entirely fair to shift the blame on AOL and SC. They are merely enjoying the perks of being white. It would have been fantastic if they offered to accept a lower salary (though I agree with posts above, it seems this cast isn't particularly tight like that), and it would have been decent of them to even make a statement about this situation, but still, CBS is fully to blame, in my opinion.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Princess Lucky

[Just my 2 cents]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:16 AM, ganesh said:

I actually don't think the show will tank either, but this seemed terribly handled. 

I don't know about that.  Last seasons ratings and amount of viewers were unusual for the show.  This is the first time in a few seasons that it was almost a sure thing they would be renewed.  I assume that the ratings will go back to whatever they were before season 7 or lower, but no big deal for cheap CBS. They can use H50's money to produce a cheaper show and pay actors less.

I would have loved it if they would have given DDK and GP spinoffs, but I suppose making them leads would have been asking way too much of CBS.  I think Julie Chen is the only minority at CBS whose jobs are safe since she married the boss.

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, pivot said:

While Lauren German was not popular on this show, I am loving her on Lucifier. So for this viewer, it worked out well that German was let go from Hawaii 5-0

Making her and Taraji P. Henson two of the luckiest people to get fired.

[Mittengirl]

If CBS and whomever else was involved in this didn't know how bad this would look, they are dumber than Chris Christie.  Or, like Christie, they don't give a damn how it looks.  

If the situation is truly financial, and not about whatever the hell precedent they are afraid of setting, why not let Grace go, give Daniel more money and hire a cheaper NewKono.  If a Grace really only wanted to be in half the episodes, that seems a much easier "firing" to explain.

 

If I had a chance to cast, I would get rid of Scott and Grace (nothing against her, just don't like Kono), keep Alex, Daniel and Chi and reduce the roles of Jorge and Taylor (Kamekono).  I would replace Kono's character with a more mature, believable cop; something less cartoonish.

[pinkglove]

1 hour ago, Mittengirl said:

If CBS and whomever else was involved in this didn't know how bad this would look, they are dumber than Chris Christie.  Or, like Christie, they don't give a damn how it looks.  

If the situation is truly financial, and not about whatever the hell precedent they are afraid of setting, why not let Grace go, give Daniel more money and hire a cheaper NewKono.  If a Grace really only wanted to be in half the episodes, that seems a much easier "firing" to explain.

 

If I had a chance to cast, I would get rid of Scott and Grace (nothing against her, just don't like Kono), keep Alex, Daniel and Chi and reduce the roles of Jorge and Taylor (Kamekono).  I would replace Kono's character with a more mature, believable cop; something less cartoonish.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking too. I mean, not all of it, I don't dislike any character you've mentioned (apart from "the money people" at CBS), but the part about people responsible for making decisions being so incredibly dumb. They knew that they are losing Grace Park anyway, at least as a regular. If I were them, I'd do everything to keep Daniel, not because it's the right thing to do or because he deserves it (it's true but I know they don't care), but because it would save their face and possibly, the show. They wouldn't destroy the ohana concept and wouldn't have to fill two voids. Plus, they would look just a bit less racist. And if the info is true, it doesn't seem like that much money for them, could have been saved on something else.

The whole "precedent" thing is fake too, because what really should be considered as a precedent is that Scott Caan is considered the lead. Maybe this was the original idea but things played out differently. He certainly didn't do more work than DDK over 7 seasons, he seems like a far worse ambassador of the show, well, there's really nothing that entitles him to bigger salary than close-minded assumptions and the fact that Danny is Steve's partner. Still though, the latter is not that simple, he's not glued to Steve like partners in other shows that were mentioned here, his character is probably less complex than Chin...

All in all, I guess they're really just racist. And instead of letting DDK and GP go, they should fire their PR&Marketing Department. And hire someone to manage Lenkov's social media. 

 

The thing is, it all probably went too far long before the negotiations started. I mean, DDK and GP were treated unfairly for years and they went along with it, for whatever reason. Perhaps they didn't have better opportunities anyway. Then, when they finally stood up for themselves and wouldn't take nothing but equal pay (which, for CBS, was an enormous rise), there might have been close to no chance they would win. By then, CBS got too comfortable with their previous agreements. 

Also, they (as in CBS) were already too deep in the mess they've created with who's leading and who's supporting.  Of course, I also wouldn't mind if Alex and DDK were paid equally (actually, I would like to forget about all this money talk altogether, because it makes me not want to watch any show ever again), but I can understand if and why they aren't. But if someone is standing firmly on this, there's no good solution, because they made Caan into someone he isn't. 

(Edit: Actually though, making it equal at this point would somewhat make up for the huge gap before, so it shouldn't be an issue.)

Edited July 8, 2017 by pinkglove

[BW Manilowe]

And The New York Times weighs in on the DDK/GP situation...

[luvmylabs]

Well, regardless of the reasons for the departure of Grace and Daniel, we won't watch any more...to see what?...Alex and Scott bickering like an old married couple?  I don't think so.

[dirtydi]

1 hour ago, luvmylabs said:

Well, regardless of the reasons for the departure of Grace and Daniel, we won't watch any more...to see what?...Alex and Scott bickering like an old married couple?  I don't think so.

It has gotten old.  I don't mind when Danny is missing, although I still loved the whole team dynamic.  Now that's gone.

in regards to LG's departure/bts issues.  Found this on an old H50 message board (which by the way were ripping into Lauren G.)

 

Lauren German Misses Days in Hawaii
By Rick Bentley/Fresnobeehive.com
July 25, 2012 12:21 PM

Many of you may recognize Lauren German, star of the new NBC series "Chicago Fire," from the time she spent on "Hawaii Five-O" playing Lori Weston. Her departure from that CBS crime drama was almost as surprising as her being invited to stay past the original four-episode arc for which she was originally hired.

"They decided to bring me on as the next detective. I don't know anything about the weird politics that went on but I think there were lot of women who didn't like my character," German says.


The actress loved being on the show and remains close friends with the cast. German would reprise her role if asked. If things go well for German's new series, there won't be time to head back to the islands to be on the CBS show.

"But, if 'Five-O' is still on when this show ends, I would hope they would have me come back," German says.



 

Edited July 8, 2017 by dirtydi
more info

[blackwing]

I agree with that New York Times writer in the sense that he observes that the show created this dynamic between Steve and Danny that was spotlighted often.  Meanwhile, Kono and Chin are there in the background without anything similar of their own.  Which goes back to my point about why the writers chose not to give them these similar focus opportunities.   And it seems to me that it's hard not to argue that the show apparently wanted to spotlight the two white guys and keep the Asians in the shadows.

While I disagree with the writer's implication that the bickering of Steve and Danny is enjoyable (it has grown tiresome), I do agree with him when he says that an Asian Danny would have been fantastic.  Why did the creators not think this would have been viable? Because white characters have to be partners and buddies with other white characters?  It doesn't have to be that way.  Look at NCIS Los Angeles, a show that debuted a season before H 5-0.  It features the white cornfed Chris O'Donnell and the black LL Cool J as partners.  I love their partnership, it transcends race.  Imagine if Daniel Dae Kim had been Danny Williams and Scott Cahn had been Christopher Kelly.   Would have been interesting to see.

I am still waiting for some kind of explanation from CBS as to why Scott was allowed to renegotiate his contract before it was up, yet Grace and Daniel were forced to wait theirs out like the dutiful Asians they are and not allowed the same opportunity.  It just seems to perpetuate the stereotype that Asians are expected to be docile and grateful no matter what the circumstances.  And when Grace and Daniel had the temerity to ask for equal treatment, they were shown the door.

I take issue with Lenkov's characterisation that Grace and Daniel "chose" to move on.  They asked to be treated the same as their white co-star, the show refused, and they were effectively fired.  The show could have made arrangements to keep them but chose not to.

[Mittengirl]

At this point, the show pretty much has to replace Daniel and Grace with actors who are of Asian, Polynesian or Native Hawaiian descent, unless they really want to look racist.  Any guesses as to who they might be?   Hopefully they will change their minds about the badass former lifeguard they had initially planned as NewKono.

As an aside, do we know how many women work as writers, producers, directors, etc., on this show?  Any? 

 

Just occurred to me, have any of the plethora of women that Steve or Danny have dated been non-white?  Given their location, it would seem highly strange if that is the case.