S04.E01: Green Arrow

[Hookian]

Red Herring to the extreme. My money is Lance being the death it won't be Felicity. Not unless this show wants to get cancelled because ratings will fall way way down if they kill her off because the Olicity fandom will leave.

[apinknightmare]

I think we're going to have a cautionary tale to explain why no one else is being brought back in the LP. So, I'm guessing that's why this person—whoever they are—is gonna stay dead. No explanation needed.

[catrox14]

 

oh and don't bring me back with any of that magic mumba jumbo crap" a

 

Diggle would say that too given that he knows what he does about the LP.

[nksarmi]

Diggle would say that too given that he knows what he does about the LP.

 

Yes but because of the toddler - Oliver wouldn't listen to him. :)

 

Oh and Oliver would take on the burden of owing Malcolm Merlyn one so that baby Sara could grow up with a dad.  I'm not sure he'd do that for Quentin.

 

Edited because while it sounded so cleaver in my head, I reread and it could be translated as an insult and that is SO not how it was intended.

Edited October 8, 2015 by nksarmi

[catrox14]

Yes but toddler - Oliver wouldn't listen to him. :)

 

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean

[EmeraldArcher]

I just have to say, I graduated at the top of my class from a top 20-ish law school, and I promise that Oliver Queen could sex the IQ right out of me.

@AyChihuahua, are you OK? You've been pretty clear that you're disgusted with Oliver and find him more of a f8ck-up than f8ckable. You've also all but given out your home address and invited us over. Are you being held hostage and trying to get our attention by saying stuff that's really out of character?

Oh, never mind. You're still bashing Lance. You're fine. HeeHee!

[nksarmi]

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean

 

Diggle has a toddler at home, but I expanded my post so hopefully it's more clear now.

[Password]

I need the rest of season 4 like yesterday! *grabby hands*

Way to get me excited :D

So...the ring is going to stay out in the open or...?

I thought Quentin's mind is being controlled. It's not?

I'm so tired of people crapping on Oliver. Made me wish he and Felicity could go back to Bob and Carol (what were their names?) and live out their domesticity. But alas, happy wife happy life.

[InsertWordHere]

It's not Felicity because Barry didn't say Bye Felicity to the grave. That's proof right there.  

Ha! I was leaning towards Felicity (as a fakeout death) but you've convinced me it's not her!

I think we're going to have a cautionary tale to explain why no one else is being brought back in the LP. So, I'm guessing that's why this person—whoever they are—is gonna stay dead. No explanation needed.

I do think it's not a permanent death (if it's not Lance), but the Pit won't being them back, time travel will. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[TwistedandBored]

DD.

 

I need to rewatch that scene. Thanks for correcting me. 

[apinknightmare]

I do think it's not a permanent death (if it's not Lance), but the Pit won't being them back, time travel will. 

 

Unless MG is lying - this one is sticking. He said so.

[AyChihuahua]

@AyChihuahua, are you OK? You've been pretty clear that you're disgusted with Oliver and find him more of a f8ck-up than f8ckable. You've also all but given out your home address and invited us over. Are you being held hostage and trying to get our attention by saying stuff that's really out of character?

Oh, never mind. You're still bashing Lance. You're fine. HeeHee!

Oh dude, I think he's a creepy manipulative moron, but I'd still bang him like a screen door!  I'd just tell him to leave right after (no cuddling) and only return on my command.  I'm disgusted by his behavior but I'm not BLIND.

Edited October 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

Seeing GIFs of the Olicity fight. The way SA and EBR played off each other was fantastic. This is seriously in my top 5 Olicity scenes. Bali! lol

 

Speech was lame. lame. lame. Are we just ignoring the fact that he took Malcolm's suggestion about the name? 

[WaitandHope]

I think I give it a B+. It's hard to really love the episode when it ends that way. These producers really know how to kill the mood. The implication of Felicity's death just puts a pall over the whole season.

It's not even a 'fun' mystery. It just means we will now approach every week as a slow march to pain, suffering and misery -- no matter how enjoyable some rides are -- or how thrilling.

Charlie Brown is really OQ's spirit animal. This guy can never win.

I guess it's hard for me to really believe it's Felicity- despite the foreshadowing. I know there are some detractors, but I really do think that she is such a winning character and could easily morph into other shows in this universe in the future. Also, it seems like a large share of viewers would just quit watching the show if she were killed. I personally can't fathom watching this otherwise dreary show without her. There are plenty of doom and gloom shows on air. I watch this show for some enjoyment.

Killing her off seems unthinkable.

OTH, EBR does seem like she's always been reluctant to fully commit to this world. And I could see the actress wanting to try to do something else since she's so young and at the beginning of her career. Plus, the producers seems to be getting closer and closer to the comic books every year.

I still just can't fathom shooting themselves in the Nielsens foot like that.

As for the shock value, a funeral scene of Felicity was guessed by one of the podcasters! And I was so freakin' spoiled, I had even educated guessed that Lance was working with DD. Despite my being spoiled rotten (my own damn fault), it was a really enjoyable episode. Quick of wit and pace - with stand-out moments for every character.

Because they really played them up over the summer, I thought something great was going to happen in the flashbacks, and that was the only disappointment in the episode for me (until the final scene). WTH - Lian Yu again? Hopefully it's short term.

[InsertWordHere]

Unless MG is lying - this one is sticking. He said so.

I know what he said, I just don't believe him. Didn't they pretend Oliver was dead during most of the mid-season 3 hiatus?

[blixie]

Prett solid episode, Olicity were perfect, both pre and post reunion with the team. I feel like the Diggle bit is contrived, not that he can't be mad and stay mad, but he basically said Oliver was the same as Ra's, aka EVIL. Like wut? NO. 

 

Loved Speedy and the way Willa is playing it, aka NOT angsty, it makes it disturbing in a realistic way given that she was resurrected by a Magic Hot Tub. 

 

That flash forward was such an obvious chain yank, they reveal Quentin is working with the season Big Bad, and then reveal someone has died six months later, it's fairly obviously Quentin and I say good riddance, if only his daughter follows him off screen, the show will be better for being rid of that whole family. (I love Sarah, but she never should have been more than drop in now and then so I'm glad she has her own show and will occasionally drop in on Arrow). There is no way Barry is so chillax about FS dead, same with Oliver, his sad was way too small, but his anger understandable given his long term relationship with Lance and his daughters. 

 

Now there is room for Charlotte Ross to return and be the lone parental representative. I'm feeling weirdly optimistic about this season, after S3 which was slow torturous train wreck of stupid and depressing. The stupid is probably not going anywhere, but I can handle stupid as long as you keep it fun.

[AyChihuahua]

I know what he said, I just don't believe him. Didn't they pretend Oliver was dead during most of the mid-season 3 hiatus?

Guggie also said, very clearly, that SC would not be in peril in S3.  A killer virus seems pretty perilous to me.  He's a lying sack-o'-crap.  

 

I guess I have to hate Mericle now, too.  I loathe obvious emotional manipulation.

 

The only thing I liked about the first two Fantastic Four movies was Chris Evans, because he played The Human Torch as "holy shit this is frigging awesome, look what I can do!" and Thea/Willa Holland is playing Speedy the same way.  I adore it.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Oh dude, I think he's a creepy manipulative moron, but I'd still bang him like a screen door!  

 

Hee!

[wonderwall]

You know...... We've been speculating a lot about who's going to die, and that's exactly what the writers wanted....

 

As stupid/manipulative the writers are, this was a smart move (objectively speaking).

[statsgirl]

I think (hope) that Oliver will get off Lian Yu before the end of the season.  (Maybe he'll end up in Russia before s5.)  The storytelling value of Lian Yu seems limited at this point.

OTH, EBR does seem like she's always been reluctant to fully commit to this world. And I could see the actress wanting to try to do something else since she's so young and at the beginning of her career. Plus, the producers seems to be getting closer and closer to the comic books every year.

I think her youth is an advantage because she's still got lots of time left before her actress' Best Before Date.  Arrow will give her lots of practice and lots of exposure and press, and she can make indie movies during the hiatus.  There are only 2 more seasons after this on SA's contract.  I can see him moving on after that.

 

Loved Speedy and the way Willa is playing it, aka NOT angsty, it makes it disturbing in a realistic way given that she was resurrected by a Magic Hot Tub. 

 

Good point.  I love how she puts the fun in the crazy.  (Hoping Barrowman gave her tips on that.)

[opus]

My goal is to not know who's in the grave till the show tells me, but in this day and age that's probably impossible.

[quarks]

AUUGH! My browser ate my first reply to this. So let's try this again, because,

 

YAY! Arrow is back in all of its "This is completely and utterly ridiculous but just roll with it!" glory, PLUS bonus major emotional audience manipulation PLUS unnecessarily obvious reuse of sets!  (At least we got some of the extras back. Let us be thankful for small things.) So...

 

Good things:

 

1. Yes, it was a blink and you'll miss it moment, but Hal Jordan was on Arrow. YAY!  Be still my little Green Lantern heart. Sniffle.

 

2. Damien Darhk. Hands down best villain that Arrow has had for some time, Big Bad or one shot, possibly up to Malcolm in his season one days. Cool, calm, and just killing people when needed. Also well dressed. And willing to terminate Star City's increasingly incompetent city officials. I like this guy. Bring it on.

 

3. Oliver and Felicity. Cute throughout, but I think my favorite bit was probably their moment in the not exactly Team Arrow cave when Oliver pointed out that she'd been lying to him for some time, and how. At least she's slightly better at lying than you are, Oliver. I also liked her admitting that she loved him, but was bored, and their discussion of why he likes the vigilante life and the thrills he gets from it. Great stuff.

 

4. And Felicity's jokes are back. Also great.

 

5. Thea! Going batshit insane and having the time of her life. YAY! Also really liked Oliver immediately realizing something was up with her, and heading to Diggle for advice.

 

6. Diggle - not forgiving Oliver, though Lyla did, and taking a moment to dress Oliver down. And then saving Oliver anyway. All nicely played by David Ramsey, who remains the anchor of this show.

 

7. Oliver jumped on a speeding train! Yes, I know it was ridiculous, and I know we've all sighed over the loss of last year's more realistic stunts, but Oliver jumped o on a speeding train and then Diggle jumped on as well I guess?

 

8. Speaking of that, great strategy all around - Damien bringing in cluster bombs from outside, Felicity realizing that was what he was doing, Oliver and Diggle sending the less useful vigilantes off for crowd control, and then blowing up the train, YAY!

 

9. First Barry Allen cameo of the season. I am expecting more. And nice nod to continuity with Flash Day there.

 

10. Nicely acted graveyard scene at the end. And, oh yes, that's one mean game to play on viewers, especially after a scene where Oliver jumped on Felicity for games, but it was well done, caused viewers to squawk in shock, and as I type, Arrow is still trending on Twitter, so well done, show, well done.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. Who on earth finances a high speed train to a city hit by three terrorist attacks in three years, where the only marginally competent law enforcement around are three vigilantes who admit less than ten minutes in that they can't handle things?

 

2. While I'm at it, show, geography. Geography. How far away is Ivy Town?  Close enough that Laurel and Thea could just pop by without Diggle even noticing that they'd taken off, but far enough away that Oliver and Felicity had to fly back and take the Palmer limo?

 

3. Er....exactly how is Felicity running Palmer remotely, and how long has this been going on, and did she do this, too, from Thailand? No wonder Palmer was failing.

 

4. Since they could blow the train up, not exactly sure why they didn't lead with that, instead of the complicated Oliver jumping on the train, then Diggle also jumping on the train, then both of them jumping off the train, and Oliver blowing it up. 

 

5. Quentin Lance.  Cool plot twist, and I'm intrigued by what this could lead to, and Arrow certainly gave a fairly solid foundation for this turn last season, so it's not entirely unexpected. All that said, talk about a major character growth retreat there: why exactly did we go through nearly three seasons of Quentin learning to trust Oliver if we were going to end up with this? 

 

6. Oh, hey, Evil Island. Nice to see you again. Nice may not be the word I'm looking for here.  

 

7. Forget the mayor. How does Star City have ANY employees left at this point? Do they just recruit people figuring that they have a better chance with terrorist attacks and random arrows than with singularities, or what?

 

Bad things:

 

1. Yikes, show, some of the stunt doubles were really obvious in a few scenes. Work on that.

 

2. Speaking of obvious, it's the first episode, and you're already barely hiding reused sets? I get that the airplane set was very very expensive and you didn't want to waste it, but paint it Put in a chair in there! Something to hide it! For my sake!

 

3. Amanda Waller, finding a guy she turned into a torturer dangling from electric wires, deciding to handle this by kicking him off a plane. Waller, you suck, and your obsession with Oliver remains creepy.

 

4. On that subject, Oliver, you know Amanda Waller is an evil person who will stop at nothing, who kept you prisoner for months, and yet, you accept a drink from her? What is wrong with you, Flashback Oliver? I mean, I know that wig has to be getting you down - it's getting us all down - but still, that's no excuse!

 

5. And present day Oliver, that's a terrible place to hide an engagement ring. Especially if you and Felicity end up getting a cleaning service, which with a place that big, you probably should, given your various jobs and the high probability that someone is going to have to spend a lot of time there cleaning up broken glass, but that just means that the cleaners are going to find the ring and steal it or worse, ask Felicity about it. You're supposed to be a strategically trained vigilante, Oliver! You have failed this ring!

 

6. Arrow's always rushed through plot, of course, and this episode had a lot it wanted to do, but still, many of the scenes desperately needed some time to breathe: Oliver with Diggle, a couple of the Oliver/Felicity scenes, the bit where the police precinct was captured, oddly enough, nearly all of the flashback scenes except for the one where Oliver was kicked off the plane. The constantly shifting camera in nearly every scene didn't really help. I know you want to leave us breathless, Arrow, but you also need to leave us emotionally invested, and you only gave three scenes of this episode enough time to breathe and get a needed beat (the Lyla/Diggle scene, Damien cutting his wrist scene, and Oliver and Barry at the gravestone.)  Your top rated episodes from previous seasons all did that for critical scenes. Can we get back to this?

 

7. Quentin, I don't mean to be critical, but given that one of your daughters ended up as a dead assassin, and the other daughter is running around in leather and a mask beating people up, and you've joined ranks with a guy whose idea of dealing with problem employees is to stop their hearts, maybe, just maybe, you can lay off Oliver a bit? Just a bit? Then again....

 

8. I sense a lot of Lance family drama coming up. Oh, no. Speaking of...

 

And now, Laurel:

 

Believe it or not, I was hoping I wouldn't have to write this section this season. And yet, here we are. On the bright side, Laurel got some great action scenes, and one good line: "We have to work on your definition of cool." It's only taken four seasons for her to get a good line, but better late than never, I guess. And her daytime wardrobe looked pretty good; credit to Katie Cassidy, probably, for that. And she also realized that she needed help - and went to get it. Let's hear it for character growth here, everyone! Sure, it took four seasons to get here, but I'll take it. And liked that she and Thea seem to be solid friends; as we've all complained, there's not many women friendships on Arrow, so this is a plus.

 

And then there was all the rest:

 

Number of times Laurel failed as an attorney/assistant District Attorney, not much legal work this episode, but still,  3: 1) Arguing with her boss right before said boss flopped over dead, like, thanks Laurel, 2) Responding to the deaths of city officials with GET MORE VIGILANTES HERE NOW instead of trying to rebuild the legal process, or even call for help with the legal process,  3)Working and living in the city and apparently being a) unaware that most of the city's events had been canceled, b, why, c) unable to get a copy of said events from a website and needing to ask a police captain for this stuff, 

 

Number of times Laurel failed as a human being, 4:  1, failing to realize that something was wrong with Thea. I'll give Diggle a pass on this - Diggle never really had the chance to know Thea. Laurel, though, has known Thea for awhile, and is actually rooming with her. She should have noticed. 2, bringing back Oliver to the Lair without warning Diggle that Oliver was on the way, like, Laurel, you know there's an issue here; common courtesy tells you to alert Diggle; 4, her "I'm not going to listen to you" attitude towards Oliver after this, like, again, I'll give Diggle a pass here, since Diggle didn't want Oliver back, but Laurel, you went and brought Oliver, against his wishes, back to Star City because you wanted/needed his skills and strategy. One of those skills - not all that apparent at the end of season three, granted, but there earlier - was leading the group. You don't get to demand that the guy comes back and then give him an attitude about his leadership.

 

Number of times Laurel failed as a vigilante, 6: 1, I realize this was the show, not Laurel, and I am being unfair here, but stopping in the middle of an important rescue mission to take a compliment from a little kid. Arrow, you've had three years to sell us on Laurel. It is not our fault, or the fault of the Star City civilians, that you've failed to do so, and pausing this sequence, in a show that was already moving at a rapid pace, for this bit, was ridiculous. Show us that Laurel is cool - as in the motorcycle sequence earlier. Don't tell us with the little kid. 2, Agreed with whoever said that Laurel needs a long range weapon; I know they're trying to have her stand out, but in two scenes, this was an issue. 3, Stopping, in the middle of a rescue sequence, to exchange a long look with her father like Laurel you are there because people are in danger stay focused, 4, Failing to save the city, 5, Failing to recognize that her father is now working for the Big Bad, like, Laurel, your main role on this team right now is the legal/police contact, which means staying in touch and chatting with the local police captain and keeping track of what he's doing. Since he's your own father, this should not be as difficult as you've made it become. 6, talking loudly about your vigilante business in a police station like Laurel, yes, I get that this is an emergency situation and people are dead and you are in a world that likes to pretend, for budget reasons, that people can only stand in a very very few places, but still, basic tact here.

 

But the rest of the show boded well, so I shall hope.

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I'll get the flashforward stuff out of the way right now. I don't believe it could be Felicity or even Diggle. Barry would have been 10x more sad if Felicity died. Like, he would have been devastated at Felicity's death because he does care about Felicity a whole hell of a lot. We've seen how he reacted with Eddie's death over on The Flash (for those who don't watch, Barry was riddled with guilt at Eddie's death) and I think he'd be a sobbing mess if Felicity died. This Barry we saw was sad, but not overly so and not someone who was grieving themselves. As for Diggle, I think Guggenheim now understands how vital Diggle is to the show. Sure, it would be dramatic for Diggle to forgive Oliver just as he dies, but I also think Oliver's reaction would have been stronger. I also think it's not Thea, which is good. That leaves Quentin. Both Barry and Oliver's responses in the flashforward would make it perfect for Quentin's death. Plus, we get the whole 'someone is angry at Oliver/blames him for darkness, only to forgive him just as they die' thing. 

 

Also, I think the showrunners may know who they WANT for the death, but they're probably weighing out their options on if it's a good idea. I'd rather the death be Laurel, but I also don't want yet another female death. Plus....I kinda like Laurel's role on the show now. It's not awkward and I gotta admit, that wink in this episode was cute. She didn't annoy me once and it's weirding me out that I like her.

 

The Olicity was too cute in this episode. I like happier Oliver. It suits him. I absolutely LOVED the moment of him telling people what to do, having awkward silence and then realizing his mistake and pretty much going 'oops'. A total not-Oliver thing to do, but really poignant to show how much he's changed. Really well acted by Stephen Amell. The other well acted moment was the higher pitched 'Felicity' when he figured out she was still helping out the team. It's weird to hear from him, but I really liked it. I also love how he looked over to Felicity every single time before he made decisions. It's so unlike Oliver, and it goes to show how much he's trying to change. Plus...he's going to propose to Felicity! Maybe she'll say no, but there's a proposal coming! 

 

I know why Diggle's mad, but....dude, listen to your very smart wife. If she can let go of it, you should too. I love how Lyla understood and had already forgiven Oliver. I do, however, want a moment of Oliver going to Lyla and apologizing. I'd love a scene with just these two. But I didn't like how Diggle told Oliver he still has darkness and is incapable of love. Sure, trust is completely valid. Oliver hasn't trusted people. But love? I do truly believe Oliver has too MUCH love sometimes, and that's why he goes over the top with protecting his loved ones. 

 

I love how Oliver noticed something wrong with Thea right away and didn't hesitate to tell her, and to even ask Diggle about it. I love their sibling moments and he's always looking out for her. I still miss Roy, surprisingly.

 

Damien Darhk....I'm not quite sure about him as a half season/full season villain. I hope it's more of a half season villain thing, but it doesn't look like it. 

 

Oliver...get off that damn island! You gotta also go to Russia soon! I'd rather if he had gone to Russia this season and then landed on the island for his final year.

 

I'd laugh if the 'him' Oliver's talking about in the flashforward is not DD, but someone like Malcolm or some new villain. 

 

And finally, the action scenes are still mostly on point. 

[blixie]

 

We've been speculating a lot about who's going to die, and that's exactly what the writers wanted.

 

Eh, as has been stated it's either Felicity or someone who matters and therefore won't stick, or it's for real and it's Quentin. You can't have stakes in a show and shared universe that now involves: time travel, multiverses, magic, metahumans, and "mysticism". I mean I don't mind that IMO that's what makes a comic book story a comic book story, a consistently malleable set of narrative rules, that flash forward was cheap and weak, and I'm GLAD it was cheap and weak, because I'm not going to angst about it for a MINUTE. Not even Grant and Steven could pretend it actually matters.

[apinknightmare]

I know what he said, I just don't believe him. Didn't they pretend Oliver was dead during most of the mid-season 3 hiatus?

 

Sorry, it wasn't clear that you knew. And yeah, he did, but don't most show runners sell shit to go along with cliffhangers? They actually showed Oliver "dying" and wanted us to believe it. This seems a little different since they have every reason to be coy? No one had to come out and say that it was for sure a firm death (which seems correct since he also has said that there will be in-show reasoning why you don't use the Lazarus Pit on an actual dead person). Playing coy would've had people speculating in not such a grim, ominous way.

 

But, meh. Who knows. 

[catrox14]

Quentin has been such an asshole to Oliver for so long that I don't see Oliver shedding a tear for him even on Sara and Laurel's behalf. Nor would I think he'd feel guilty about his death particularly. 

 

Oh....what if it's Roy? Like something brings Roy back for a fight and he dies for real. Oliver would shed a tear for Roy because he did when Roy left and Barry would not be attached to Roy's death like Felicity.

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[paigow]

Was there a huge continuity glitch? Darhk gets shot by Diggle, collapses on floor and disappears by the time Diggle reaches Oliver. Train blows up good and Darhk is magically at home waiting for Quentin. Does Darhk have android replicas or access to Starfleet transporters? 

[blixie]

 

Playing coy would've had people speculating in not such a grim, ominous way.

 

I found zero about that scene either grim or ominous, just lame. Like I said neither of those actors who are both very capable of portraying grief were really portraying grief, and while I think they are being truthful about the death sticking (Its' QUENTIN) I think they are utterly full of shit about not knowing it's QUENTIN. 

[mommalib]

Seriously this.  Like I love Diggle but that was some cold shit. Heh. I'm almost wondering if we don't find out that whatever is happening here with Oliver is like a weird timeline or some mind games that Darkh is playing.

They all seem to talk to Oliver like crap when it suits them. Felicity said something cold to him last season I forgot exactly what she said but it was something like what Digg;e said tonight.

[calliope1975]

I'm rewatching in my, um, correct time zone right now, and QL just had his Oliver Sux! speech. It makes more sense about "monsters" coming to town if he's being forced to work for DD. I'm not giving him any slack for that, though, because QL was a jerk all last season and he can suck it. But maybe he has more of a reason for being a dick to Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

I found zero about that scene either grim or ominous, just lame. Like I said neither of those actors who are both very capable of portraying grief were really portraying grief, and while I think they are being truthful about the death sticking (Its' QUENTIN) I think they are utterly full of shit about not knowing it's QUENTIN. 

 

I didn't think it was grim or ominous, but then again I'm not one of the people freaking out about it being Felicity. And there are a ton of those people - that's what I meant. 

Quentin has been such an asshole to Oliver for so long that I don't see Oliver shedding a tear for him even on Sara and Laurel's behalf. Nor would I think he'd feel guilty about his death particularly. 

 

IDK, if Quentin sacrifices himself for Oliver and they have a nice moment before he bites it, I can see Oliver shedding tears for sure. 

 

I think his level of emotion was just right for someone like Lance. Nowhere near emotional enough for anyone else. 

 

Also, whoever dies must not be very liked, because they only had like three sprays of flowers at their grave site. Weak.

Edited October 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[lemotomato]

To be clear, I am not one iota worried that Felicity is for real dead.  I can see Guggie loving the DRAAAAMMMMAAAAA of killing Felicity, but the CW/DC/whoever else more important than Guggie would flip out.  I am just really genuinely pissed that they are strongly implying it is Felicity, because I am so goddamn over the angst.  A lot of people theorized a flash-forward, and they did it in the most melodramatic way possible.  So for me they have preemptively ruined 4A just like they ruined all of 3 by killing Sara.  Fuck them.  (Again, y'all are awesome and I'll keep reading here for that reason.)  

I thought this way too initially, but the more I think about it, the less I'm inclined to let this cast a pall over the rest of the season. 

 

Aside from the obnoxiously obvious hints that the grave is Felicity's, they went through a lot of trouble to make sure the scene itself doesn't give any clues as to who dies. I feel like that makes this season no different from the last 3 when someone died in the last 1/4th of the season, just this time we know it'll happen for sure instead of just expecting it to happen sometime in April. So I'm not going to let it ruin the parts of this season that I will like.

 

It'll probably force me out of fandom, though, because the continuous speculation and freaking out is going to drive me crazy.

[statsgirl]

They all seem to talk to Oliver like crap when it suits them. Felicity said something cold to him last season I forgot exactly what she said but it was something like what Digg;e said tonight.

It was in the episode Sara.  Felicity was crying because her friend had died and Oliver was being cold and emotionless and she got angry at him. 

 

Oliver:I just need your A game right now, Felicity.

Felicity: I don't have it! My friend--our friend-- was shot with arrows and fell off of a rooftop. Her body is upstairs right above us in a freezer because we don't know what to do with it-- with her. So I am so sorry, Oliver, if I have feelings, but maybe if you did, too, we... Sorry. That was mean. But this is Sara we're talking about. Your Sara. How can you stand there being so cold and rational?

Oliver: 'Cause I don't have the luxury of falling to pieces. Everyone's looking to me to handle things, to make the right decisions. Everyone is looking to me... to lead. If I grieve, nobody else gets to.

Felicity: You're still a human being, Oliver. You're allowed to have feelings. I know sometimes that it's easier to live under that hood.

 

I think she had a point because he was expecting her to be as emotionless as he was.  (Also he'd just unilaterally shut down their relationship.)  And she does acknowledge that what she said sounded mean, which neither Diggle nor Laurel did.

Edited October 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[Guest]

Also, whoever dies must not be very liked, because they only had like three sprays of flowers at their grave site. Weak.

 

Haha, I thought the same thing. If it was someone loved there would have been so many flowers. That was like the gravesite of someone who had maybe done wrong and no one came to pay their respects. 

[lemotomato]

SA just said in his live session that they just recently shot the grave scene, so those BTS pics with GG were from that scene, not a reprise.

Also explains why the Arrow screener for critics was so much later than the other CW shows

[InsertWordHere]

Sorry, it wasn't clear that you knew. And yeah, he did, but don't most show runners sell shit to go along with cliffhangers? They actually showed Oliver "dying" and wanted us to believe it. This seems a little different since they have every reason to be coy? No one had to come out and say that it was for sure a firm death (which seems correct since he also has said that there will be in-show reasoning why you don't use the Lazarus Pit on an actual dead person). Playing coy would've had people speculating in not such a grim, ominous way.

 

But, meh. Who knows. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off so tersely in my response. This situation reminds me of the recent Game of Thrones death where the producers and the actor immediately came out with GOT

he's dead dead dead, so dead he's never coming back ever comments even though they had no reason to, since book readers have been speculating on this cliffhanger for years. They could have been coy, but weren't, and that character is probably not as dead as they said.

Arrow is already being coy by showing us the grave but not the name, it's possible they're trying to make it seem bigger and more "gamechanging" than it actually is, but then why say they haven't decided on the character yet? It's weird. Basically, I just never trust producer comments about anything.  

[apinknightmare]

I mean, just the fact that they're saying someone definitely dies, that it's permanent, and that there's going to be an explanation as to why the LPs aren't used to bring anyone back makes me think that it really is permanent. 

 

If they hadn't said that, then I would've thought it would be some kind of accident or event that would've been prevented by time travel in the crossover - like Rip Hunter would've helped them stop whatever happened to that person. 

[mommalib]

It was in the episode Sara.  Felicity was crying because her friend had died and Oliver was being cold and emotionless and she got angry at him. 

 

I think she had a point because he was expecting her to be as emotionless as he was.  (Also he'd just unilaterally shut down their relationship.)  And she does acknowledge that what she said sounded mean, which neither Diggle nor Laurel did.

It doesn't matter to me why she said it, it was cruel.

[Sunshine]

I vote for Quentin as the death. Didn't he sign his death warrant in S3 when he muttered that amazing line..."Dinah Laurel Lance always trying to save the world." It just took longer than we expected.

[apinknightmare]

It doesn't matter to me why she said it, it was cruel.

 

A cruel thing that she immediately apologized for saying. 

[AyChihuahua]

I found zero about that scene either grim or ominous, just lame. Like I said neither of those actors who are both very capable of portraying grief were really portraying grief, and while I think they are being truthful about the death sticking (Its' QUENTIN) I think they are utterly full of shit about not knowing it's QUENTIN. 

In my head in which Oliver Queen et al., are real people in an alternate universe (thus why I sort of hate OQ now, bc if he's a real person his shitty behavior can't be written off for off-screen plot reasons), OQ would be utterly destroyed by Felicity's death.  Even more than Thea, bc Felicity is his future, his wife, the mother of his children.  But this show?  They could portray his grief in whatever way they want, just like the portrayed Felicity being pretty over it when OQ died/became evil.

[catrox14]

 

Also, whoever dies must not be very liked, because they only had like three sprays of flowers at their grave site. Weak.

 

That's another reason I'm throwing Roy into the Death Pool.  (see my post a couple of spots up)

 

Roy wouldn't have had very many people who would have come to his funeral. Thea might be out of her mind with grief or just out of her mind. And they might have wanted to keep it on DL but to give Roy some final respect.  It would also explain Oliver saying it wasn't his fault but his responsibility.  Or they came and left before Barry showed up.

[Delphi]

Roy Harper is by far the best human being ever on this show. Truly a good kid, and if he ever needs a place to stay, I have an extra bedroom.

...I have a bedroom, granted my partner will have to sleep on the floor but he'll understand.

[BunsenBurner]

So I guess Diggle keeping his thoughts on HIVE a secret is where he is making his big mistake that will backfire on him.  Terrible sentence, sorry.

[AyChihuahua]

They kill Roy, the truly best person in this universe, and I kick some ass.

...I have a bedroom, granted my partner will have to sleep on the floor but he'll understand.

I feel motherly/big-sisterly towards Roy, so no bed-sharing for me.  He's very cute, but I wish he was my son, so, you know, ewwwwwww.

[apinknightmare]

So I guess Diggle keeping his thoughts on HIVE a secret is where he is making his big mistake that will backfire on him.  Terrible sentence, sorry.

 

And he's sure gonna get Oliver back but good, for not telling him about Malcolm! Be angry about someone withholding information, and then withhold some information your damn self. I know it's not on the same level, but...c'mon, show. 

[Guest]

I vote for Quentin as the death. Didn't he sign his death warrant in S3 when he muttered that amazing line..."Dinah Laurel Lance always trying to save the world." It just took longer than we expected.

 

I legit just snort-laughed. Thank you! 

[paigow]

...I have a bedroom, granted my partner will have to sleep on the floor but he'll understand.

Super Hero AirBnB... send the bill to Malcolm Merlyn 

[GirlvsTV]

I enjoyed the episode, although I feel like I didn't really get a good understanding of why Oliver decided to stay and suit up again. He seemed pretty attached to the suburban life even after the argument with Felicity (my favorite scene tonight), so I'm not sure how one more, "you are not alone" talk with her resulted in him choosing to stick around. I just thought we would've had a clearer idea of what his motivation was to suit back up.

Loved all the Olicity moments, the relationship feels very real between those two and it felt like they were operating on a whole other level together when they came back to Star City. I see what WM meant by them being a team within the team.

Diggle was way too harsh with the whole, "you don't trust or love anyone" speech to Oliver. I'm also really tired of everyone crap talking Oliver at every turn and I wish he'd tell them all where to stick it.

I'm not sure what happened, but the action scenes on this show are just not as good as they used to be. I don't really remember being wowed by anything tonight, which is disappointing for an Arrow episode.

Is KC pitching her voice slightly down now? There were a couple times in this episode where I thought she was, although that seems an odd acting choice to make.

No way are they killing off Digg or Felicity. I wish it was Laurel but it's Quentin. And I massively don't care so there aren't really any stakes in it for me. Not looking forward to wading through months of speculation about it though.

Edited October 8, 2015 by GirlvsTV

[Chaser]

The 'bones' line from Laurel bugged me. It was already awkward and then they went and had Waller repeat it. I can't figure out what they were trying to say with that.