All Episodes Talk: Season 6

[Lisin]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[stopthestatic]

An underrated season.

[buffyjunkie]

I always thought it interesting that S2 and S6 were one of my guy friend's favorite two seasons.  I was never quite sure what that said about him as a person.  I don't hate S6 or Spike like many others but I certainly understand why they feel the way they feel.  I like Buffy's dark side or depression being explored as I think that is part of growing up (athough a little too much too soon for her.)  My complaint is that the show never recovered from it.  I think it was the "perfect storm" of burned out actors, writers looking for other jobs, lack of JW at the helm or at the helm too late, and so on.

[Dianthus]

I'm torn on s6. Spike is my favorite character, and watching Buffy lash out at him in her misery and self-loathing is very difficult for me. OTOH, Spike's redemption is, IMO, the best thing to come out of Buffy's final seasons. I liken Buffy's character arc to The Enemy Within. For those not familiar, it's a ST:TOS ep wherein Kirk is separated by a transporter malfunction into two beings. One is weak but idealistic. The other is strong but animalistic. To be a whole person, 'Good' Kirk needs to accept 'Evil' Kirk as part of himself. The Replacement (s5) is a play on the same theme. Buffy is the target of the big, tall robe-y thing's attack, when Xander takes the hit instead. Still, the idea is: separate the weak aspects of the character from the strong. Kill the weaker, and the stronger dies too, as one cannot survive w/o the other. Buffy needs to accept the darkness within, so she controls it, rather than the other way around. She's very resistant to the idea, but Spike helps her get there in the end.  

[Jediknight]

I despise season 6.  I don't buy the notion that it was too dark for fans, those same fans also praised Angel, and Buffy never got that dark.  Spuffy hurt the season and show big time.  But I'll focus on a couple of things I liked in this season.

The first was Johnathan.  He, Warren, and Andrew were the villains, but with Johnathan they showed us that Johnathan wanted to be the supervillain, he wanted to play Lex Luthor, but when he got a taste of what that actually means he didn't want it.  He thought being the supervillain would be awesome, but realized it's not awesome, and it's not him.  He's comfortable as the guy hanging out playing Dungeons & Dragons, and reading comics.  At his heart he's not completely evil.  Warren and Andrew on the other hand, were cool with being the supervillains, and what that meant.  Warren obviously was cooler with it than Andrew, but Johnathan the second he got a taste of what it actually meant, was physically sick.  I could have some sympathy for Johnathan, the moment Katrina rightfully rips into all of them, it clicks for him.

The other thing was "As You Were".  I loved this episode, it's not exactly a popular opinion but it's my favorite episode from seasons 6 and 7.  It was actually some fun, it was kind of like the fun had in season 4.  You had Buffy singing the Doublemeant Palace jingle, "My hat has a cow.", "Did you die?" "No." "I'm gonna win.", the Troublemeat Palace joke, "You smelled the smell?", Riley's speech to Buffy, "We got a wild bear.", and Buffy and Riley having chemistry.  It was like Sarah Michelle Gellar got to have some fun for the first time since she was The Buffybot.  Riley (I'm one of the few that like him), actually added some spark back into the show.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Jediknight

[ShadowDenizen]

The first was Johnathan.

Totally agree, Jediknight.

Jonathan was the one had an actual compelling arc, not Warren or Andrew, and Danny STrong really portrayed that extremely well. (S4's "Superstar" was one of my favroite episodes of the whole season- and I love the way that Jane Espenson and Danny Strong seemed to have such great chemistry and friendship behind the scenes.)

Though I love Tom Lenk to this day, Andrew remains my least favorite character of the entire series.

But for Season 6 overall? Marti Noxon effectively brought this show to it's knees for almost the entire season,

[Moo]

I love S6. Yes, it was dark, but it was a necessary darkness. There's a point in every person's life where depression sets in, and it's usually after high school/college when real life hits you like a ton of bricks. I got that, and I appreciated that the show went there. I was also a fan of any BS interaction. I don't even care what they were doing so long as they're on screen together. I think the only problem I would have with S6 is if it was the only season of the show I'd seen. But when you take Buffy as a whole show, start to finish, it's such a vital part of Buffy's story that the show wouldn't feel complete without it. We'd seen her at her best for 5 years. It was time to see her at her worst and watch her climb out of it. It made me admire her all the more.

[mad_typist]

I suppose my main problem with Spike (who, admittedly, I didn't love once he became love sick and moony over Buffy) was this: if Spike could be conditioned to not only not kill people, but also prove that he could get his soul back of his own choice, then aren't the Scoobies pretty much murderers? Why not capture vamps instead and attempt to rehab them, a la Spike? Having said that, I suppose you could make the same argument about Angel's ability to have a soul. If it's possible to give vamps a soul in any way, then the Scoobs are a bunch of vampire murdering nuts since they gleefully kill them without attempting to help them.

I also despise the "Magic is a drug!" metaphor. I think it cheapened Willow's arc and excused her own poor choices. It would have much more compelling for me if it were simply "Power is a drug, in that it feels awesome and that it's the easy path to choose when you have hard choices in front of you!" By making magic a much more explicit, almost physical, addiction for Willow, it makes it easier to forgive her terrible actions later on. I felt like the writers loved Willow too much to really commit to her arc.

It's a shame, because Willow really fit the classic profile for this kind of storyline: powerless and playing 2nd fiddle most of her life, of course she'd act like a monster if given a taste of real power.

[KirkB]

I also despise the "Magic is a drug!" metaphor. I think it cheapened Willow's arc and excused her own poor choices. It would have much more compelling for me if it were simply "Power is a drug, in that it feels awesome and that it's the easy path to choose when you have hard choices in front of you!" By making magic a much more explicit, almost physical, addiction for Willow, it makes it easier to forgive her terrible actions later on. I felt like the writers loved Willow too much to really commit to her arc.

 

   Oh how I hated this. Not only did it go against everything we'd been shown and told about magic up to that point, it was practically character assassination toward Willow. Actually, back in the day I kind of wondered if it wasn't Noxon or someone punishing Willow (and by virtue of that, her fans) for becoming even more popular than the star of the show. Even more insulting, the producers themselves, after drumming the whole magic is drugs things for half a season, apparently changed their minds in season seven and dismissed the whole thing with a throwaway line from Giles.

[Dianthus]

I was definitely not a fan of the 'magic = drugs' thing. IMO, saying someone's addicted to magic is kinda like saying s/he's addicted to electricity. OTOH, the 'power is a drug' thing works better for me, but then "it's all about power" gets a little weird.

It's my understanding that one of Noxon's friends had a drug problem around this time (or some such), and that influenced her take on Willow's issues. I dunno about punishing Willow/Allyson Hannigan, but it did seem to take some of the heat off Willow for her bad actions, and I don't think that's right. I got into with someone who said that it was easier to excuse Willow for her actions at the end of s6 (as opposed to Spike for his) 'cuz she was 'emotional.' Honestly! Spike wasn't exactly rational himself at the time. Not that it really excuses either of them for what they did.

We're meant to believe Spike is "more or less unique" in his ability to change, unlike other vampires. His song is My Way, after all.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Dianthus

[Erratic]

If any of you are following 'Potentialcast' on you Tube podcasts, they just are three newbies and one Buffy veteran watching Buffy from start to finish, and the newbies just released a commentary watching 'Once More, with Feeling' for the first time (their regular episode discussing the episode is out next week) - it was as awesome as watching for the first time. I beg you to google this podcast and listen!

[harrie]

I listened to the OMWF podcast, and based on their reactions could mostly recall what was happening onscreen.  But I was at work, so no video; and every once in a while, someone would say "That is awesome!" or something and I couldn't figure out exactly what they were talking about.   So I will probably try it at home with the video, too - probably also with "Hush."

 

Thanks for the info, though - very excellent site, and I will be checking out other episodes too.  For example, i was lukewarm on some of Season 1 and 2 because of some of the Valleyspeak and wonder if anyone else ever felt the same way.  

[taanja]

I am an unapologetic fanatic of Buffy and Spike. Therefore season six is one of my favorite of all the seasons. Seriously. Smashed! C'mon! Buffy and Spike duking it out and sexing it all over and smashing down buildings all the while was gold! I tell you gold! I can watch that scene over and over...

 

I loved Buffy's decent into misery and despair. Have I mentioned I love Spike? no? well from his very first appearance in "School Hard" I fell for him --hard! LOL

 

Willow was never a favorite so her whole Magic is a drug thing was just meh to me. I didn't care for the Riley return either but that ep had some fun moments so I can forgive his smug face and annoying wife.

[Eegah]

I've heard that the real way this season ended up so dark is that the various writers presented Joss with ideas that he signed off on one by one, only realizing afterward that having them all happen AT THE SAME TIME might be a bit much. But however it happened, it really doesn't work for me. The lesson of this season is basically "Life sucks, nothing will ever work out for you, and you might as well just kill yourself right now," with a cheap happy ending tacked on that doesn't fit at all.

 

I just find going this dark to be a very cheap, insidious writing choice, as any time anyone gives you some kind of criticism, you get to reply with a condescending "Oh, I guess it was just too dark for you. Why don't you go back to watching My Little Pony, that seems more your speed." That's not to say that it can never work; I adore A Song of Ice and Fire, for instance. But this season is just a long, dull slog that never seems to be going much of anywhere, and despite a few standout episodes (the one-two punch of Once More with Feeling and Tabula Rasa is one of the show's all time great moments) it's one of the most unpleasant TV viewing experiences I've ever had.

 

Then the next season managed to be even worse, but that's another story...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I just find going this dark to be a very cheap, insidious writing choice, as any time anyone gives you some kind of criticism, you get to reply with a condescending "Oh, I guess it was just too dark for you. Why don't you go back to watching My Little Pony, that seems more your speed."

 

Thank you, Eegah, you took the words right off of my keyboard. It's not because season sux was 'dark' that I didn't like it. Season two was also dark, but A) I still rooted for the characters and B) that season didn't seem to be pushing the idea that everything will start to suck once you leave college and will never get better, so it would be best if you just give up right now.

 

More than that, as I said, it made it really difficult to root for the characters I once loved, because they were all turned into uncaring jerks. The closeness between the Scoobies no longer existed because Buffy was spending all her time with Spike, Willow ridiculously became hooked on magic, and Xander was stuck dealing with engagement and wedding lowjinks. I don't mind watching a show where everyone is awful or at least a bit of a putz, but BtVS was never that show. There was always hope that things would get better or improve. Season six actively seemed to be promoting the notion that life becomes hopeless once you leave the safe haven of college, that you'll be stuck in a minimum wage job serving fast food, a couple of free loaders living in your house, a bratty kid sister who won't stop whining, and a sociopathic 'boyfriend' you can degrade yourself with by having sex within smelling distance of a dumpster. Amid all that, where's the possibility that life is anything but a massive ball of heartache and misery at all times?

[Jack Shaftoe]

I just find going this dark to be a very cheap, insidious writing choice, as any time anyone gives you some kind of criticism, you get to reply with a condescending "Oh, I guess it was just too dark for you. Why don't you go back to watching My Little Pony, that seems more your speed."

 

Yes, I have gotten this reply so many times too. It is very annoying. It's funny how nobody tells the people who don't like the early seasons much "You can't handle all the fun" or something like that. "Darkness" seems to have become a buzzword that many confuse with depth or quality. So somebody loved S6? Great, but they really shouldn't presume to know why I or you or somebody else hated it. Though, I king of grew to love telling those people 'By the way I happen to love The Wire which is a million times darker and truer to life story than your beloved S6, so there.'

 

 

The lesson of this season is basically "Life sucks, nothing will ever work out for you, and you might as well just kill yourself right now," with a cheap happy ending tacked on that doesn't fit at all.

 

To this day I am wondering why they expected me to root for a heroine who would have been much happier if she were dead. Or why this supposedly so "realistic" and "mature" season ended with Buffy snapping out of her depression for no reason other than the season ending (same way her financial troubles suddenly disappeared in S7 for no reason other than fans complaining about them). Realism, my ass. Realism is a two-edged sword, once you start using it you cannot put it away so easily. If you spend many episodes that magic is basically a drug, with physical withdrawal effects and so on, you can't continue the story with "Just kidding, magic is not addictive after all". It's this kind of amateur quality writing (not to mention the wooden dialogue and the many episodes in which almost nothing happens) that makes me laugh when I see claims that S6 made the show more mature and deep.

[Eegah]

And of course, before this season magic was mostly a metaphor for lesbianism, leading to quite the nasty implications here. My favorite comment ever about this, from Kickpuncher at Mark Watches: "Magic was sex, then it was drugs, and now it's sex again. Did we just skip when it was rock and roll?"

[Dianthus]

Whedon has said (in front of recording equipment) that he was basically working out his own personal issues over the course of the show. Considering his mother died and his dad packed him off to boarding school, I'd say that's a big part of the 'darkness' of s6. I mostly prefer the camp of earlier seasons, but I'd rather light a candle than curse that darkness. So I try to understand, and find what good I can in it. That said, Doublemeat Phallus is one of my least favorite episodes of the whole series, and I usually like Espenson eps. A giant penis monster rising out of an old lady's head? Srsly?!? Paging Dr. Freud. Dr. Sigmund Freud.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And apparently Spuffy got so gross because Marti Noxious had a bad boyfriend once. And Espenson's the one who sad in some interview or other that Spuffy was a "gorgeous love story." I haven't forgiven either of them yet.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I blame Whedon much more than Noxon or Espenson. First, it's not like they sneaked behind his back and included Spuffy in the show while he wasn't looking. Second, judging by the episodes Whedon penned in S5-7 he was clearly very pro-Spuffy.

[Dianthus]

The last two seasons of BtVS were very much issues on parade. However, I agree with Espenson. Spuffy is about love, forgiveness, self-discovery, and acceptance. It's Romantic in the sense of a shared journey.

 

I don't know if Whedon could be considered pro-Bangel or pro-Spuffy. He was telling his story, and he felt both of these relationships were important to that story.

I do blame him for not being a better communicator (ironically) with his writing staff.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Dianthus

[Camera One]

For me, this was the season the show truly jumped the shark and I no longer enjoyed watching it.  I cannot pinpoint exactly when that happened.  The first few episodes were pretty decent, I actually liked the conversation/connection that Buffy and Spike had about her death experience.  "Once More, With Feeling" was also fun.  I guess go with "Wrecked"... Willow's magic addiction, the messed up Buffy-Spike sex, and then later in the season, killing off Tara for shock value, Willow going "dark"... the plot just got harder and harder to swallow to the point where by the season finale (and I had ALWAYS enjoyed Buffy season finales), I just remember being amazed at how bad it was.  Who knew Season 7 would be even worse and basically tarnished the memory of the entire series for me, to the point that I don't think I've even posted on a "Buffy" topic for years and have no urge to rewatch it again.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Camera One

[KirkB]

While I agree they were all working through their own issues with the crucible of a television show, there is also a panel on the DVD's where Whedon basically says they broke the season into won't this be cool and that be cool episodes, each one getting darker and more depressing. That somehow it didn't occur to them that when they were put together as a whole it would make the whole thing too dark and depressing to actually enjoy, because even OMWF and TR, meant to be lighter episodes, were just as dark and twisted when you really paid attention to what was going on.

[Valny]

If anyone wants to listen to the audio commentary of a first time viewer of Wrecked,(Alirio from the Potentialcast group on FB) you can listen right here!  I haven't listened along with watching the ep yet, but I'm expecting some good/fun comments from him. The comments have to be more entertaining than the episode!

[jhlipton]

I have Seasons 1 through 5, but don't have Season Sux and Season Suxmore.  Blergh.

The totally inexcusable murder of Tara, the character assassination of both Willow and Jonathon, magic is a drug (was Jenny a pusher, Amy dead from an overdose?), the whole Called-back-from-Heaven bilge -- yuck.  Makes me a little ill just to think about.  OMWF and Tabula Rasa were the only bright spots.

[Dianthus]

I really liked the way they mixed humor and pathos in TR. To get really shallow, tho', I hated Tara's hair. Why did that pretty girl have a dead squid on her head?

[Smad]

.The scenes in which he hugs Buffy and Anya and laughs about Buffy's experiences in season six were probably my favorite parts of the episode.

I absolutely hated that. I'm never a fan of meta comments put into a show but this one just pissed me off. For them to be laughing at their audience was the perfect cap on this crappy Season. 'Haha, you took any of the stuff we did this Season seriously? Stupid geeks.'

[toodywoody]

rewatching this season is painful, all because Dawn is the absolute worst. I don't understand what the whole point of her character was. So many wrongs about her introduction 

[SosaLola]

I loved the Xander/Willow scene in Grave. It was a nice message about saving the world with love instead of violence. It was that moment when Xander realized his strengths, when he finally accepted his role as a supporter to powerful female characters. 

[DigitalCount]

On 6/16/2014 at 8:53 AM, nosleepforme said:

I missed Giles in season six. I think all of the characters needed a father figure really badly in season six. Everything was just so dramatic and nobody had anyone to really confide in. All the characters were so isolated and in such a dark space. I think it would have done wonders if they had had Giles to confide in.

I agree so much that I had to quote this from 2014 (partially because I'm only finishing the season right now!). I think that a lot of the things that happened in S6 simply would not have happened if Giles had been there, for the very basic reason that his presence would have made everyone think twice about their choices. Buffy, Xander, Willow, Anya, Dawn, and even Spike all made choices that they just wouldn't have if he were there, to say nothing of the fact that he would have advised them and continued to mentor them. To some extent it made sense to portray magic as being similar to sex and also drugs, because how many times did Buffy use Spike like a drug? I know a lot of people like Spuffy, and I respect that, but her behavior was that of an addict IMO. I'm not sure if it was because she was trying to feel something or trying not to feel anything, and I think there are arguments for both.

I enjoyed Tabula Rasa so much I sought out fic where AU Sunnydale is protected by Joan the Vampire Slayer and her pal Randy Giles, and even started thinking down that road myself (would she even call herself the Slayer? She seemed to be thinking in more a superhero-y direction, so maybe she'd take on a comic-like name with Alex's help). And one of my favorite aspects of Buffy is when she's Altered-State Buffy and still is a hero.

But I see people here saying it was all just too much and I can't help but agree. There was something so ugly about watching the Nerd Herd stalk and hurt Buffy in such petty ways for such petty reasons. And Warren...well, let's just not.

[whiporee]

I have a very prurient question: When Buffy was talking about all the things Spike made her do sexually that were so degrading, I found myself wondering what they were. Not trying to be pervy, but it's not as though she was submissive to him -- it's not like he embarrassed her in public. What could she have been talking about? It's always bothered me about the season -- I could see her feeling bad about screwing him, I could see her being embarrassed about the whole thing. But her assigning blame to him seemed to be making her seemed odd and out of character, and the fact that she referred to "things he made me do" really felt off. So anyone have ideas what she could be referring to? 

As a whole, the only thing I hated was the whole Doublemeat Palace arc. I thought the Council would have been taking much better care of Buffy than to just leave their Slayer in financial duress like that. But SFX aside, I liked the finale, and that Xander was crucial in the end. 

[Loandbehold]

There was sex on The Bronze's balcony. I don't recall how much Buffy originally objected to that. We also saw that at least one time they used handcuffs (I believe Spike asked Buffy if he trusted him then pulled out the handcuffs, but I could be wrong on that). So, I guess it can be inferred that other acts were performed that, in hindsight, Buffy looked at as degrading and that she wouldn't have done if she hadn't been suffering a major depression.

[AllyB]

I think Buffy meant that Spike 'making' her want him was degrading in itself. She'd hated him for years and much of their sex was an outward expression of self-loathing on her part. But not entirely because by the end of season 5 Buffy had developed a modicum of respect for Spike and in season 6 she identified with him in some ways. Someone who truly, truly loved her wouldn't have had sex with her in the state she was in. If Angel had been around, he would have been saddened to see Buffy mirroring some of his darkness and would have endeavoured to build her up and regain her former positivity. If he saw that his relationship with her was stunting her ability to make healthy choices he would have walked away. It's what he did in season 3. Spike was ok with Buffy lowering herself to his level. He wasn't all bad, by season 6 he is a better 'person' than he had been, but he was ok with him and Buffy meeting in the middle because he got what he wanted. He took advantage of her, full advantage, and she was disgusted by that. 

On 2/14/2017 at 0:57 AM, whiporee said:

As a whole, the only thing I hated was the whole Doublemeat Palace arc. I thought the Council would have been taking much better care of Buffy than to just leave their Slayer in financial duress like that.

I always wondered why Buffy's final conversation with the watchers in Checkpoint didn't go;

Buffy: So here's how it's gonna work. You're gonna tell me everything you know. Then you're gonna go away. You'll contact me if and when you have any further information about Glory. The magic shop will remain open. Mr. Giles will stay here as my official Watcher, reinstated at full salary...

Giles: [Coughs] Retroactive.

Buffy: ...to be paid retroactively from the month he was fired. I will continue my work, (on a salary paid retroactively from the day I first met Merrick, any outstanding mortgage on my house or medical bills for my mother cleared, kick-ass ironclad medical insurance and a pension plan that will care for my little sister after my death) with the help of my friends...

Buffy was no longer an unwordly teenager who would just accept a slayer being just her vocational duty. She realised her full power over the Watchers and as a new head of a household with a dependant teen, she should have insisted on renumeration for herself as well as Giles. Giles can make a living from his duties as watcher, in LA Angel, Cordy and co are charging for their world saving services but Buffy is supposed to hold down a job as well as her slayer duties? I can see how the watchers would want it that way as it gives them more control but Buffy ended the dynamic of a slayer doing what the council tells her to. She deserved to have her financial burden lifted.

I'm in the minority who mostly loves season 6. I don't mind Buffy and her friends having a hard time of life at this period. Buffy was brought back from the dead, that had to have severe consequences. Buffy's depression and weariness at her renewed life. Willow's arrogance as her power grows, Xander's uncertainty about his future in the face of his friend's death and unhappiness at her resurrection all felt very real to me. But the severity of Buffy's financial issues and being forced into the Doublemeat Palace job just rang completely untrue when she is the focal point of an incredibly rich organisation. And just seemed like an unnecessary way to kick her when she was down.

Edited March 1, 2017 by AllyB

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

And, yes, they CAN'T seem to live without her.  Flash forward to S6, when they brought her back from the dead, and how they never for once thought how SHE would feel.  They thought she was in a hell dimension, but they were so selfish in their motives that they brought her back not realizing the consequences. 

I will never understand the notion that resurrecting Buffy was selfish in any way, shape or form. That's basically the non-supernatural equivalent of saying that if you want to risk your life in an attempt stop your friend from committing a suicide you are being selfish. Of course, the Scoobies should have bothered to, you know, check to see if Buffy was really in a hell-dimension, but that's S6's usual level of terrible, contrivance-ridden, writing, not selfishness, IMO. Plus, if heaven is only a one time deal it's a really shitty heaven that I really can't take seriously. Basically the whole thing was nonsense from start to finish, IMO.

Quote

Then, to leave Spike out of it, who fought by their side all year!

That's because Spike knew that "Magic always has consequences!" even though he had no problem helping Dawn try to resurrect Joyce a few episodes before that. Ah, yes, good old S6 logic.

[VCRTracking]

I wouldn't have minded the darkness of season 6 if they pulled out of it in season 7, but they didn't. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

the whole Called-back-from-Heaven bilge -- yuck.

I didn't mind this concept.  I thought it played well into the idea of Willow being a "rank amateur" with her magic, not truly considering the consequences of her spells or whether Buffy should be (or actually wanted to be) brought back.  I do mind how the show eventually developed this plot point, but in and of itself, it wasn't a bad story to explore.   

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I didn't mind this concept.  I thought it played well into the idea of Willow being a "rank amateur" with her magic, not truly considering the consequences of her spells or whether Buffy should be (or actually wanted to be) brought back. 

One of my many problems with this particular storyline is that I really don't think Willow was any way, shape or form a rank amateur with her magic until she suddenly needed to be one for plot purposes. Not to mention that the other three participants in the resurrection spell didn't bother wondering if Buffy might be in heaven either.

[txhorns79]

Quote

One of my many problems with this particular storyline is that I really don't think Willow was any way, shape or form a rank amateur with her magic until she suddenly needed to be one for plot purposes. Not to mention that the other three participants in the resurrection spell didn't bother wondering if Buffy might be in heaven either.

I think there's a reason Willow didn't tell Giles what she and the others were doing (aside from what would likely have been his general disapproval), and that reeks of being an amateur.  It was similar to what Willow did the season before where she directly confronted Glory after Glory brain-sucked Tara.  Willow decided she knew best, confronted a being who was substantially more powerful, was easily defeated and would have been killed if not for Buffy's intervention. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by txhorns79

[Halting Hex]

I loathe and despise S6 and have never given most of the episodes (bar Normal Again, As You Were, the musical, and I think Life Serial, Gone, and Doublemeat) even a second viewing.  But lately I've been wondering if maybe I could at least appreciate some parts of Seeing Red: pretty much everything with Xander in it, plus Buffy facing the Last Crusade saw-blades and doing that R-rated Gracie Allen impression when she crushes Warren's magic balls.  Heck, maybe I can even make my head-canon work and pretend that Dawn's squeezing over the Willow/Tara reconciliation because she's hoping to listen at the door and pick up tips for her "sleepovers" with Janice ;)

Of course, I'd have to completely ignore Spike (maybe liberal FF-usage?), and the ending is probably a skip, but I was willing to give it a try.  I mean, why did I download the Chosen Collection if not for this?  If I only wanted the seasons I was willing to pay for (S1-S4), I wouldn't need this stuff cluttering up my hard drive.

So, I went to play it and…wow.  Barely made it through the "Previously…" segment.  I mean, usually when I think about how much I despise Entropy, I'm thinking about Anya's attempts to trick Xander's friends into murdering him being treated as comedy, or Spike rubbing Spuffy in Xander's face, but I'm also thinking about how much I loathe the fact that Willow isn't at the final confrontation outside the Magic Box, that she just lets Xander run off, clearly very upset, because "la-la, I've got a Tara scene coming up, guess I'll just stay at home and study".  Completely out of character, IMO.

But now, for the first time, I notice how repulsively rude and intrusive Tara is in that "can you just be kissing me now?" scene.  

Did she call and ask if she could come over? No.

Did she knock on the door or ring the bell once she was at Buffy's house? No.

Did she call up the stairs and say "hey, Will, can I come up and talk to you?" No.

Did she even have the basic courtesy to wait in the doorway to Willow's bedroom, rap her hand against the jamb and go, "Hey, mind if I come in?" No, again.

No, the Big Knowledge Woman just saunters into Willow's bedroom like she owns the place (remember that she and Willow have been broken up for six months at this point, and Tara just recently turned down Willow's request for a coffee date, never mind anything more intimate).  Frankly, she reminded me of Spike, and not only because wardrobe decided to put her in a black leather duster to look "cool".  There's a slouchy arrogance in her body language that I found very off-putting.

But we finally get past the recap, to the actual episode, and there are Willow and Tara, enjoying their post-sex snuggle.  Willow is, of course, thinking about Buffy (and as a Buffy/Willow fan, I take a moment to giggle at the subtext) but then here comes something I'd completely forgotten about…Willow gets all tentative and stuttery and "you're going to think I'm crazy, but I think something might be happening with Buffy and Spike".

Oh, yeah.  Willow had NO IDEA anything was up.  That part last episode where she saw Buffy go into shock and leave the room when they all watched Spike boning Anya on the CC feed that Willow hacked into, no, no that didn't clue Willow in about Spuffy at all!  Dumb old Willow can barely conceive of Buffy spreading it for Spike (even Dawn knew what was up, immediately, ffs!), but never fear, Kindly Wise Woman Tara will help teach Dumb Willow all about what Buffy's been doing.

Fuck you, show.  If you're going to assassinate Willow to prop Tara like this, I'm going to live with just the memory of "the sinister-yet-addictive card game?" and "he won't be much good without his friends" (which is still an "awww!", even if only in my head), and I won't even watch Tara die, much joy though it might give me at this point.  I won't even watch Spike drive to Africa on his motorcycle to "give the bitch what she deserves" (such noble and selfless wuv! His heart is true!)

Seriously, I doubt that I lasted much past the one-minute mark. That's got to be a record.  Have I said "Fuck you, show" enough, yet?

To paraphrase Tony Harris in Hell's Bells, "on the plus side [the revolting post-coital scene] has probably saved me from a nasty dose of the clap having to ever look at Clem again." So there's that, at least. Sigh.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:07 AM, Halting Hex said:

I loathe and despise S6 and have never given most of the episodes (bar Normal Again, As You Were, the musical, and I think Life Serial, Gone, and Doublemeat) even a second viewing.  But lately I've been wondering if maybe I could at least appreciate some parts of Seeing Red: pretty much everything with Xander in it, plus Buffy facing the Last Crusade saw-blades and doing that R-rated Gracie Allen impression when she crushes Warren's magic balls.  Heck, maybe I can even make my head-canon work and pretend that Dawn's squeezing over the Willow/Tara reconciliation because she's hoping to listen at the door and pick up tips for her "sleepovers" with Janice ;)

Of course, I'd have to completely ignore Spike (maybe liberal FF-usage?), and the ending is probably a skip, but I was willing to give it a try.  I mean, why did I download the Chosen Collection if not for this?  If I only wanted the seasons I was willing to pay for (S1-S4), I wouldn't need this stuff cluttering up my hard drive.

So, I went to play it and…wow.  Barely made it through the "Previously…" segment.  I mean, usually when I think about how much I despise Entropy, I'm thinking about Anya's attempts to trick Xander's friends into murdering him being treated as comedy, or Spike rubbing Spuffy in Xander's face, but I'm also thinking about how much I loathe the fact that Willow isn't at the final confrontation outside the Magic Box, that she just lets Xander run off, clearly very upset, because "la-la, I've got a Tara scene coming up, guess I'll just stay at home and study".  Completely out of character, IMO.

But now, for the first time, I notice how repulsively rude and intrusive Tara is in that "can you just be kissing me now?" scene.  

Did she call and ask if she could come over? No.

Did she knock on the door or ring the bell once she was at Buffy's house? No.

Did she call up the stairs and say "hey, Will, can I come up and talk to you?" No.

Did she even have the basic courtesy to wait in the doorway to Willow's bedroom, rap her hand against the jamb and go, "Hey, mind if I come in?" No, again.

No, the Big Knowledge Woman just saunters into Willow's bedroom like she owns the place (remember that she and Willow have been broken up for six months at this point, and Tara just recently turned down Willow's request for a coffee date, never mind anything more intimate).  Frankly, she reminded me of Spike, and not only because wardrobe decided to put her in a black leather duster to look "cool".  There's a slouchy arrogance in her body language that I found very off-putting.

But we finally get past the recap, to the actual episode, and there are Willow and Tara, enjoying their post-sex snuggle.  Willow is, of course, thinking about Buffy (and as a Buffy/Willow fan, I take a moment to giggle at the subtext) but then here comes something I'd completely forgotten about…Willow gets all tentative and stuttery and "you're going to think I'm crazy, but I think something might be happening with Buffy and Spike".

Oh, yeah.  Willow had NO IDEA anything was up.  That part last episode where she saw Buffy go into shock and leave the room when they all watched Spike boning Anya on the CC feed that Willow hacked into, no, no that didn't clue Willow in about Spuffy at all!  Dumb old Willow can barely conceive of Buffy spreading it for Spike (even Dawn knew what was up, immediately, ffs!), but never fear, Kindly Wise Woman Tara will help teach Dumb Willow all about what Buffy's been doing.

Fuck you, show.  If you're going to assassinate Willow to prop Tara like this, I'm going to live with just the memory of "the sinister-yet-addictive card game?" and "he won't be much good without his friends" (which is still an "awww!", even if only in my head), and I won't even watch Tara die, much joy though it might give me at this point.  I won't even watch Spike drive to Africa on his motorcycle to "give the bitch what she deserves" (such noble and selfless wuv! His heart is true!)

Seriously, I doubt that I lasted much past the one-minute mark. That's got to be a record.  Have I said "Fuck you, show" enough, yet?

To paraphrase Tony Harris in Hell's Bells, "on the plus side [the revolting post-coital scene] has probably saved me from a nasty dose of the clap having to ever look at Clem again." So there's that, at least. Sigh.

I think that's a little harsh on both Tara and season 6, folk in the Scooby Gang and Sunnydale generally seem to have a pretty much open door policy. 

[Halting Hex]

Well, I don't know.  I mean, Buffy shows more reluctance to just barge in on Willow in Same Time, Same Place, and Buffy owns (co-owns?) the house! Granted, some of that was about Buffy's issues, but still.

And IMO, one can never be "too harsh" on Season Sux.  Worst season I ever tortured myself by enduring despite the way almost every episode made me feel worse about having loved the show.  As I once wrote, it was like watching a friend die.

And don't get me started on the musical…

[Joe Hellandback]

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, I don't know.  I mean, Buffy shows more reluctance to just barge in on Willow in Same Time, Same Place, and Buffy owns (co-owns?) the house! Granted, some of that was about Buffy's issues, but still.

And IMO, one can never be "too harsh" on Season Sux.  Worst season I ever tortured myself by enduring despite the way almost every episode made me feel worse about having loved the show.  As I once wrote, it was like watching a friend die.

And don't get me started on the musical…

Six was a good season but not much of a fun season, I'd be careful disparaging the musical as most of fandom would consider that heresy! It's Dawn who always seems to be butting on courting couples, she's a right little voyeur. 

[Halting Hex]

On 5/8/2018 at 8:36 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I'd be careful disparaging the musical as most of fandom would consider that heresy!

Eh, most of Joss's Emmy™-begging crap is just that…crap.  I mean, obviously, Chosen is the Worst Episode Ever, but let's not forget that The Body inspired me to describe it as "like watching TV with the Pause button on".  Once More, With Spuffy fits right into that very mediocre array.  (Also, Joss wrote the worst parts of Conversations with Dead Plot Points, the incredibly-boring and streeeetched out Buffy/Holden scenes.  I don't know what happened to him, but it wasn't good.)

At least The Gift lives up to SNeaker's famously pithy review, "very pretty crap".  I mean, there's not exactly a brick-ton of logic in the fight (why does Bottie throw the DagonSphere at Glory when it's working on her?  So that we can get the effect of Glory crushing it and move on to the rest of the fight: simple victory would be too boring, you know.  Why isn't Buffy doing something when Buffybot is fighting Glory, like double-teaming Glory or, you know, rescuing Dawn?  Because Joss is too busy playing "trick the audience" to bother with plot logic, that's why.  And let's not even get started on Xander using his X-ray vision to somehow see through the wall to hit her with the wrecking ball) and I'm enraged when Whedon starts shitting all over Becoming to gives Giles a moment of unearned "cool" by smothering Ben (because suddenly "a hero" is someone who can't make hard choices, we're supposed to believe), but it is moderately entertaining.  Would that I could say the same about Whedon's later work.

You say "heresy", I say "truth".  I think that makes me Gallileo? (Not sure about that one, I'll admit.)

Edited May 10, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

I have never understood why so many people who rant against season six give OMWF a pass. Catchy songs aside, it has just about everything that is wrong with the season - Spuffy, the Scoobies abandoning Buffy for no reason (or rather for the sake of Spuffy), Willow "going dark" for no reason, stupid plot twists (Xander summoned Sweets for the sake of a homophobic joke), etc.

Quote

Whedon starts shitting all over Becoming to gives Giles a moment of unearned "cool" by smothering Ben (because suddenly "a hero" is someone who can't make hard choices, we're supposed to believe)

Yes, every time I think about this stupid speech by Giles I keep wondering what on earth Joss was smoking. Heroes can't make tough choices? Since when? Heroes should always look for the magical third option? What's this, a Saturday morning cartoon? And don't get me started on how Buffy's third option in The Gift made no sense whatsoever.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Eh, most of Joss's Emmy™-begging crap is just that…crap.  I mean, obviously, Chosen is the Worst Episode Ever, but let's not forget that The Body inspired me to describe it as "like watching TV with the Pause button on".  Once More, With Spuffy fits right into that very mediocre array.  (Also, Joss wrote the worst parts of Conversations with Dead Plot Points, the incredibly-boring and streeeetched out Buffy/Holden scenes.  I don't know what happened to him, but it wasn't good.)

At least The Gift lives up to SNeaker's famously pithy review, "very pretty crap".  I mean, there's not exactly a brick-ton of logic in the fight (why does Bottie throw the DagonSphere at Glory when it's working on her?  So that we can get the effect of Glory crushing it and move on to the rest of the fight: simple victory would be too boring, you know.  Why isn't Buffy doing something when Buffybot is fighting Glory, like double-teaming Glory or, you know, rescuing Dawn?  Because Joss is too busy playing "trick the audience" to bother with plot logic, that's why.  And let's not even get started on Xander using his X-ray vision to somehow see through the wall to hit her with the wrecking ball) and I'm enraged when Whedon starts shitting all over Becoming to gives Giles a moment of unearned "cool" by smothering Ben (because suddenly "a hero" is someone who can't make hard choices, we're supposed to believe), but it is moderately entertaining.  Would that I could say the same about Whedon's later work.

You say "heresy", I say "truth".  I think that makes me Gallileo? (Not sure about that one, I'll admit.)

I don't think that's a hero moment so much as a grown up moment?

 

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I have never understood why so many people who rant against season six give OMWF a pass. Catchy songs aside, it has just about everything that is wrong with the season - Spuffy, the Scoobies abandoning Buffy for no reason (or rather for the sake of Spuffy), Willow "going dark" for no reason, stupid plot twists (Xander summoned Sweets for the sake of a homophobic joke), etc.

Yes, every time I think about this stupid speech by Giles I keep wondering what on earth Joss was smoking. Heroes can't make tough choices? Since when? Heroes should always look for the magical third option? What's this, a Saturday morning cartoon? And don't get me started on how Buffy's third option in The Gift made no sense whatsoever.

What's the third option that doesn't make sense?

[Jack Shaftoe]

Jumping off the tower. Buffy killing herself should have had no effect whatsoever on the portal. Even if Dawn was made by using "Summers blood" (why exactly and how would Buffy know that anyway?) this doesn't make Buffy a Key in any way, shape or form.

[wendyg]

Plus, Dawn was just *not* worth saving.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 6:35 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Jumping off the tower. Buffy killing herself should have had no effect whatsoever on the portal. Even if Dawn was made by using "Summers blood" (why exactly and how would Buffy know that anyway?) this doesn't make Buffy a Key in any way, shape or form.

The dying monk Buffy rescue from Glory tells her about the blood and she works out the rest for herself. It is a no lose scenario for Buffy, if it works Dawn lives, if it doesn't Dawnie jus follows her off the tower as she tried to do until Buffy stopped her.  

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 8:13 PM, wendyg said:

Plus, Dawn was just *not* worth saving.

Dawnie is the most precious thing in the world, why do you think the monks made her the little sister? Why do you think everyone was falling over one another to save her?

[Halting Hex]

7 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

The dying monk Buffy rescue from Glory tells her about the blood

No, what Brother Idiot Jeb actually said (in No Place Like Home) was:

Quote

We had to hide the Key, gave it form, molded it flesh... made it human and sent it to you.

So Dawn was created apart from Buffy, and only sent to her later.  It seems very unlikely that the Monks, over in the Czech Republic, had a hold of some of Buffy's blood or anything like that.  (Although Buffy does have her passport [per Who Are You], as opposed to poor country mouse Willow, who's never even been to New York [per Inca Mummy Girl].  Maybe Buffy spent the summer between S4 and S5 in Prague, checking on Spike and Drusilla's history there?  Ah, you see, we only have Dawn because Spuffy is Twu Wuv! [/evil laugh])

But even if the Monks did, through some unbelievable plot wank, have some of Buffy's DNA and threw it into the mix with the Key to create "Dawn", so what? It's the Key that opens the dimensions, not the "Summers blood".  Buffy is the useless part of Dawn in this example.  

Remember, Brother Idiot Jeb tells Buffy that "for centuries [the Key] had no form at all".  So how can its function be performed by Buffy, who only showed up on this planet in 1981?  Joss's logic does not resemble our Earth-logic, here.

[Pallas]

Yes. Buffy's explanation in The Sacrifice is, by far, the clearest, the simplest, and the most evocative: "She's more than (my sister). She's me. The monks made her out of me." From there, all else could be said to follow well enough... 

The problem, of course, is that nothing had ever suggested this before. What we'd been told is that the monks made the Key into a human, and that human into Buffy's sister, so that Buffy would be uniquely motivated to protect her, beyond all others. (As a minion might put it.) I have a hard time seeing "The monks made her out of me" as anything but the hanging chad on a lost scene, or a mulligan performed on a McGuffin.