Mark & Nikki: Touch That Window, Lose Your Hand

[lavenderpenguin]

I was responding to the posts that suggested Nikki was more mature than your average American her age.

I agree. I was simply expanding on your statement.

[millennium]

Everything in life IS relative. A 20-year-old dealing with the manipulations of a 58-year-old would have the dynamics of a child interacting with an adult. And it is so glaringly obvious in ALL of Mark's interactions with Nikki (talking about how his kids can't do this or that, even asking Erica Hill if she'd allow her kids to do something, waking her up with a whistle, telling her how to behave herself, telling her how she's feeling -- the list goes on and on) that he, too, believes he's dealing with a kid.

 

If Nikki were in a relationship with a fellow 20-something, the dynamic wouldn't be that of a child/adult, because they would be two young adults on similar footing and maturity. Mark has an entire life's worth of experience and emotional baggage to the point where Nikki does, for all intents and purposes, come across like a kid when dealing with him.

 

Also, it is important to note that when they were married, she was 19. A teenager. I'm only 23, but I can tell you right now that any age that ends in a "teen" is for sure a kid, at least mentally. She's right out of school and has barely experienced what life is like as an adult. At that age, you're still growing into yourself, figuring out what you want in life, and developing confidence in yourself and your potential. To say that at 19, she's on equal footing and can level with a 57-year-old with four adult children, who has been through a divorce and decades of failed dates, is plain delusional.

 

I categorically disagree with you, and you will not change my mind, so I see no point in continuing.

[GracieK]

The word maturity basically means aged over time or brought to full development.  All other things being equal a 19 year old can never be as mature as a 58 yr old.  One thing that a 19 yr old can never catch up to on someone 40 yrs her senior is time.  I know people always like to say that age is just a number but it's really not.  It's a series of experiences over a set and measurable period and it's silly to think that a 19 yr old is at a comparable stage in development as a 58 yr old.  A 19 yr old,  is at an early stage (or understandably referred to as a kid) relative to a 58 yr old. 

[BethBud]

I think most of that is that they simply miss their home country.  We are seeing them fresh from their home country.  If the world suddenly was turned upside down and there was the best life in Greenland, I might go, but I would miss the US greatly.  Because I grew up here and I'm used to it here.  And I think thats what we see on the show.  My parents came here from another country and they love being US citizens, but I know when they first got here, they missed their home.  They used to talk about going back to retire, but now my parents realize that this country is their home, and they don't want to go anywhere else to retire.

 

I do think that Nikki wants to be a US citizen, in part, because she can have the opportunity at a better life here.  But I see nothing wrong with that.  I think many people who immigrate here care about America as much as those who were born here.  And sometimes, even more, because they understand the differences between the US and other countries.  And I think they care about America in that their diversity adds to America, the way I think diversity always has.

 

Very well said. I love being a US citizen, I love this country, on days like the Fourth of July I'm the one who brings out the American flag, not my American-born, military veteran husband. But I still love my home country, I miss it dearly. It's easy to expect foreign spouses and other immigrants to completely give up their home countries and traditions, but in reality it's not that easy. And if every foreigner did give up their traditions, food, etc, then there wouldn't be places like Little Italy, China Town, etc. Yet those naturalized citizens are every bit, if not more, as patriotic as many Americans who were born here. 

[Cherrio]

I get tired of the constant characterization of Nikki as a "child."    She's 20 years old.   My guess is, she's more mature than many of her American counterparts, simply because she hasn't been coddled and supported by her family for most of her life.

 

I got the impression her "naivete" is an act for the cameras.

 

And I'm not entirely convinced Mark is as horrible and "abusive" as he's judged to be here.   The strongest evidence against it is Mark's daughter, Elise, who appears to be a normal, well-adjusted, bright and happy young woman.   She knows who and what her father is.   Do you believe she would be a willing participant in this if she thought her father to be the Bluebeard of Baltimore?

 

We see what the producers want us to see.   It doesn't mean it's real.

I actually think Mark paid Elise to appear on the show.  It was obvious to me at least she was not happy or comfortable.  I am sure she is acutely aware of how obnoxious and unlikable he is too.    Not to mention on her twitter, she said she was nothing to her father but a tax write off.       IMO, someone as young as Elise would not say something like that unless her father had said it to her. AND.....that is something Mark would say, because we all know how burdened he was with 4 children in diapers.

             I think he paid her because it was the only way to get at least one of his kids on the show.

[sleepyjean]

That post by Elise was heartbreaking.  I really admire her.

I have to disagree with this. I found quite a bit of what she had to say self-centered and a wee bit entitled. It was all about how what her father had done had been so traumatic for HER, and he hadn't even cared about her opinion. 

 

Her comment "I've cried myself to sleep about it wondering how my father could do this to me" says it all.

Sweetie, this isn't about you. Grow up. Your father didn't go looking for Nikki just to piss you off. You're going to be up and out of the house living your own life. Your father was lonely, he wanted a life partner, and he desperately wanted someone who would never ever leave him or take away anything that he's worked for all his life. He lacks a lot of qualities that would make him attractive to a woman near his own age, so he went looking for someone who doesn't have a lot of options, and who would be willing to fit herself into the desired mold. "What will Elise think about this" probably wasn't even in the top ten on his priority list. Nor should it have been. He's a grown man. He should be able to choose a life mate based on what he wants, and he's under no obligation to consult with his grown children, who are off living their own lives and making their own choices about who to date and marry. Would it have been nice if he'd asked her how she feels about it? Yes. But obviously they aren't that close, if going on a reality show is the only way for her to express her feelings to him. And when that didn't work, she put him on blast on Instagram. Very mature.

 

If Elise was a minor, I'd feel bad for her. If she expressed concern for her father, I'd understand. But it was 100% about how her feelings were hurt.

Edited December 9, 2015 by sleepyjean

[lavenderpenguin]

I have to disagree with this. I found quite a bit of what she had to say self-centered and a wee bit entitled. It was all about how what her father had done had been so traumatic for HER, and he hadn't even cared about her opinion. 

 

Her comment "I've cried myself to sleep about it wondering how my father could do this to me" says it all.

Sweetie, this isn't about you. Grow up. Your father didn't go looking for Nikki just to piss you off. You're going to be up and out of the house living your own life. Your father was lonely, he wanted a life partner, and he desperately wanted someone who would never ever leave him or take away anything that he's worked for all his life. He lacks a lot of qualities that would make him attractive to a woman near his own age, so he went looking for someone who doesn't have a lot of options, and who would be willing to fit herself into the desired mold. "What will Elise think about this" probably wasn't even in the top ten on his priority list. Nor should it have been. He's a grown man. He should be able to choose a life mate based on what he wants, and he's under no obligation to consult with his grown children, who are off living their own lives and making their own choices about who to date and marry. Would it have been nice if he'd asked her how she feels about it? Yes. But obviously they aren't that close, if going on a reality show is the only way for her to express her feelings to him. And when that didn't work, she put him on blast on Instagram. Very mature.

 

If Elise was a minor, I'd feel bad for her. If she expressed concern for her father, I'd understand. But it was 100% about how her feelings were hurt.

 

I think any daughter would be concerned, upset, and likely disgusted if her father decided to marry a girl younger than her. That isn't normal behavior and while Mark is under no obligation to consult with his kids about his dating life, I don't think it's far-fetched or bizarre that him finding a barely legal foreign teenager to marry would be an upsetting choice. I would certainly find it jarring if I experienced it, because it would confirm for me that my father is an absolute pervy creep -- and what girl wants to feel that way about her father, regardless of her age?

 

As far as being "mature," let's remember that Elise is 21. One year older than Nikki now. I'm not expecting a college kid to be the picture of maturity and understanding here, especially when her 58-year-old father is making a fool of himself on national television.

Edited December 9, 2015 by lavenderpenguin

[GracieK]

And to be fair, right after she said that, she said "And he didn't do this to me, he did it for himself. As much as we preach "you can't help who you fall in love with" to those who are against interracial and same sex relationships; doesn't that phrase relate to age?"

 

Sounds like she is handling it maturely.  I mean I think we can cut the girl some slack on her initial reaction.. she was under 21 at the time, still living at home and going to school, and her dad comes back from overseas saying he's bringing home a teenager to marry and oh btw he's going to film the journey for the entire world.  Her post about it is mostly saying that it's her dad's choice and she's going to support him even if she hasn't always agreed with it.  I think that is a reasonable statement for her to make.  

Edited December 9, 2015 by GracieK

[biakbiak]

Also, Mark apparently announced his engagement on Facebook before he told his kids, that is messed up.

[cooksdelight]

Also, Mark apparently announced his engagement on Facebook before he told his kids, that is messed up.

 

I remember that! It tells me he has crappy relationships with his kids. No wonder the sons wanted nothing to do with his show about his "love" for Nikki.

[nenya]

As far as the maturity topic, I think it is a fallacy to assume that all people are automatically more mature. Some might understand some life things better than us here (poverty, etc) but a lot of people are also taught family first: take care of the siblings and parents then get married and the husband and the in-laws and then have babies, and then cycle back to taking care of the parents. There isn't always an emphasis on learning, different view points, questioning the status quo, etc. So, yes, in some ways maybe Nikki is more mature. She has probably seen more things than we have. But she also may not know she has options.

 

I think I'm a pretty smart cookie, but I definitely wasn't ready to make life decisions at 19. I even adjusted my professional aspirations post college. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

As a child (even an adult one), it's pretty hard to think "my dad will choose his new wife over me." That's a tough thing to know about your parent, much less admit in writing to other people.

 

I imagine even more so when the new wife is a teenager from another country. Elise knows who her dad is. And apparently he's the kind of guy who values a potential romantic relationship over a relationship with his children.

There it is. I can't imagine saying that about my dad. It would be indescribably sad and I'd probably be too ashamed to tell anyone. Unless I was raised to know that my dad would always choose his new relationship over his relationship with me. Then I'd probably accept it and be more blase in telling people.

 

That's the kind of dad he is. The same kind of husband.  Selfish. Self absorbed. Looks out for himself, but tries to convince everyone around him that he's doing the best he can for everyone else. I can't blame Elise for being disappointed. Poor thing, she's not even shocked.

Edited December 9, 2015 by guilfoyleatpp

[RCharter]

I have to disagree with this. I found quite a bit of what she had to say self-centered and a wee bit entitled. It was all about how what her father had done had been so traumatic for HER, and he hadn't even cared about her opinion. 

 

Her comment "I've cried myself to sleep about it wondering how my father could do this to me" says it all.

Sweetie, this isn't about you. Grow up. Your father didn't go looking for Nikki just to piss you off. You're going to be up and out of the house living your own life. Your father was lonely, he wanted a life partner, and he desperately wanted someone who would never ever leave him or take away anything that he's worked for all his life. He lacks a lot of qualities that would make him attractive to a woman near his own age, so he went looking for someone who doesn't have a lot of options, and who would be willing to fit herself into the desired mold. "What will Elise think about this" probably wasn't even in the top ten on his priority list. Nor should it have been. He's a grown man. He should be able to choose a life mate based on what he wants, and he's under no obligation to consult with his grown children, who are off living their own lives and making their own choices about who to date and marry. Would it have been nice if he'd asked her how she feels about it? Yes. But obviously they aren't that close, if going on a reality show is the only way for her to express her feelings to him. And when that didn't work, she put him on blast on Instagram. Very mature.

 

If Elise was a minor, I'd feel bad for her. If she expressed concern for her father, I'd understand. But it was 100% about how her feelings were hurt.

Honestly, I think at Elise's age, everything is about her.  And thats okay.  I would have hoped her father would have taken her feelings into consideration.

 

I can't even imagine.  I will defend my father to the outside world no matter how wrong he is because he is my dad and he has his faults, but he is my dad and I love him.  You will love your parents in spite of their faults, and you are going to want to defend them.  She is in a position now where her father has made it very tough to defend him.

[jujuebes]

As a child (even an adult one), it's pretty hard to think "my dad will choose his new wife over me." That's a tough thing to know about your parent, much less admit in writing to other people.

 

I imagine even more so when the new wife is a teenager from another country. Elise knows who her dad is. And apparently he's the kind of guy who values a potential romantic relationship over a relationship with his children.

There it is. I can't imagine saying that about my dad. It would be indescribably sad and I'd probably be too ashamed to tell anyone. Unless I was raised to know that my dad would always choose his new relationship over his relationship with me. Then I'd probably accept it and be more blase in telling people.

 

That's the kind of dad he is. The same kind of husband.  Selfish. Self absorbed. Looks out for himself, but tries to convince everyone around him that he's doing the best he can for everyone else. I can't blame Elise for being disappointed. Poor thing, she's not even shocked.

 

This is why I think Mark's relationship with Nikki is a massive do-over for him. He probably thinks taking care of four kids and the divorce ruined the prime of his life and now he is trying to relive it without kids and taking absolute control. He has all of his past locked up in that house with the bed, the sheets, the pictures, all of the events he did with his ex he was trying to recreate, the miata, both women are from Cebu, he even still has the old jet ski and mercedes he posed on from his profile. Maybe he was even wearing his red polo the day his ex left.

 

I really wonder who Mark was when he met his first wife and was he always this specimen or did he become so traumatized by his past events he practically created his own little world in his mind?

Edited December 9, 2015 by jujuebes

[SinInTheCamp]

Everything in life IS relative. A 20-year-old dealing with the manipulations of a 58-year-old would have the dynamics of a child interacting with an adult. And it is so glaringly obvious in ALL of Mark's interactions with Nikki (talking about how his kids can't do this or that, even asking Erica Hill if she'd allow her kids to do something, waking her up with a whistle, telling her how to behave herself, telling her how she's feeling -- the list goes on and on) that he, too, believes he's dealing with a kid.

 

If Nikki were in a relationship with a fellow 20-something, the dynamic wouldn't be that of a child/adult, because they would be two young adults on similar footing and maturity. Mark has an entire life's worth of experience and emotional baggage to the point where Nikki does, for all intents and purposes, come across like a kid when dealing with him.

 

Also, it is important to note that when they were married, she was 19. A teenager. I'm only 23, but I can tell you right now that any age that ends in a "teen" is for sure a kid, at least mentally. She's right out of school and has barely experienced what life is like as an adult. At that age, you're still growing into yourself, figuring out what you want in life, and developing confidence in yourself and your potential. To say that at 19, she's on equal footing and can level with a 57-year-old with four adult children, who has been through a divorce and decades of failed dates, is plain delusional.

 

Yes to all this. Not to mention that the frontal lobe in our brains aren't even fully developed until around the age of 25. Although Nikki may have been able to work to help support her family and begin post-secondary education in the Philippines, her cognitive abilities are not fully developed. I was a great example of that. "Mature" enough at 17 to have a full-time job and rent my own apartment but completely immature into my twenties about my romantic relationships and thinking that at 23 I was ready to have a baby (I wasn't). Looking back two decades later, I see that all of the experiences I've had since then have made me a much wiser and--dare I say--more mature person that I could have ever imagined at Nikki's age. I wish I could have a do-over as my more mature self! As you say, it's virtually impossible for her and Mark to be on the same cognitive footing. Although he certainly acts immature, he has a whole lifetime's worth of experience on her.

 

I must add, lavenderpenguin, that I never would have guessed that you're 23! I'm so very impressed at YOUR maturity and insight! You bring a lot to this conversation, and I very much enjoy reading your posts. But possibly that's because the gap in our ages is much, much less than that of Mark and Nikki's...  

[Foreign-wife]

I wish I had found this forum at the start of the season, not at the end of it. As my name suggests, I am as a foreign-born wife. My husband and I are already married and I am currently awaiting my IR-1 visa in my home country before moving to the United States to live with him. For us, this was better than the 90-day fiancé route. I'm from the UK and have a career here and it makes sense for me to keep working and earning, rather than sit at home over there. With the IR-1 visa, you can work immediately upon arrival. And that's what I intend to do.

Anyhow, this series has really caught my attention due to the similarity to our situation. But one thing I have noticed about Mark is that when he was doing the pre-nup and when he presented the ring in front of Elise he made no mention of loving her. He said "I promise to protect you, shelter you, provide for you" and I think at one point he even said "nurture you". That made me gag. It was more like an adoption ceremony than an engagement. When he was questioned about the pre-nup by Erica Hill, he changed it slightly and said "love you" but that wasn't in the scene at the dinner table with Elise.

And here's a general comment about the whole series. I find it incredible how they keep saying "90 days is not a long time to know if you want to marry someone and spend the rest of your life with them". You're not kidding! That's why the normal way is to spend time getting to know one another before getting married. I met my husband online and we met in person around 12 times before we got engaged. We're fortunate that we have the earnings and passports to be able to do that. But if we didn't, I don't think I could have agreed to marry someone on the other side of the world that I'd spent a handful of days with. And you don't have to wait the whole 90 days before you get married. Those that complained about not being able to work should have got married earlier and started the AOS process to get their work permits. No requirement to spend a full 90 days waiting for a wedding.

My husband jokingly suggested we should have done this instead, the K1 visa, and appeared on the show. I said we wouldn't have been what the show is looking for. No 40-year age gap. No poor family at home counting on me to send money home. No language problems. No arguments over whether one of us should be an underwear model or not. No children older than the spouse. And my husband would not freak out if I went to a strip club. No cars belonging to the ex-wife. No faded zebra sheets.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Foreign-wife

[lavenderpenguin]

I really wonder who Mark was when he met his first wife and was he always this specimen or did he become so traumatized by his past events he practically created his own little world in his mind?

 

We will never know, but Mark strikes me as the kind of man that has always had trouble dating and picked his wife because he thought she'd be a devoted, obedient wife, and then was surprised when she wanted some freedom. Something about how he described her leaving him (even though we know that it wasn't like she packed her bags in the night and left never to be seen again) and how she "changed," makes me think that he was always this person and his ex-wife got fed up. Instead of reflecting on himself, he convinced himself that she was the problem, not him.

[wovenloaf]

We will never know, but Mark strikes me as the kind of man that has always had trouble dating and picked his wife because he thought she'd be a devoted, obedient wife, and then was surprised when she wanted some freedom. Something about how he described her leaving him (even though we know that it wasn't like she packed her bags in the night and left never to be seen again) and how she "changed," makes me think that he was always this person and his ex-wife got fed up. Instead of reflecting on himself, he convinced himself that she was the problem, not him.

Oh yeah, I think he's been this same shitty human being for the last 30-odd years. I mean, he also goes out with 100 women (allegedly), all 100 dates are a "train wreck" (read: they had opinions of their own about ordering the salmon instead of the chicken, and didn't grovel at his feet and jump into the zebra sheets the minute he handed them "1, if not 2, dozen roses, at a 4, if not 5, star restaurant"), and it never occurs to him that maybe he's at least part of the problem? And then goes on national television and proclaims that everyone at home is just jealous? Give me a break dude. 

 

He really made me uncomfortable during that reunion... Like beyond the obvious creepy factor I got from him all season. The way he was clutching Nikki, wouldn't let her talk, was staring daggers through Erica Hill (one of those blasted "independent" women, I guess), couldn't manage a sentence without saying something misogynistic, had that terse look on his face like he was about to explode the whole time, harped on the window fingerprints as "messing with his happiness," etc. Ugh. I, like others have said above, get a distinctly abusive vibe from this "relationship" and it makes me really sad for Nikki. Regardless of any reason she may have for being with him, no one anywhere at any time under any circumstances deserves that.

[GracieK]

He really flipped out over the window thing on Erica!  That was the perfect time for him to try and look laid back and say he was just teasing or something but it didn't come across that way and to say it's not that big of a deal.  Instead he kept irately insisting and asking Erica over and over if she wanted someone messing with her windows and that Nikki needs to learn the standard of living here.  What the what?  Erica, like myself,  flat out said yeah I never really gave a second thought to someone touching my car windows.  I mean he just couldn't let it go.. and he had all kinds of time to plan out how he could respond to it and not look like a psycho, but instead he came off worse.... he's got real anger problems and control issues.  

[jujuebes]

He really flipped out over the window thing on Erica!  That was the perfect time for him to try and look laid back and say he was just teasing or something but it didn't come across that way and to say it's not that big of a deal.  Instead he kept irately insisting and asking Erica over and over if she wanted someone messing with her windows and that Nikki needs to learn the standard of living here.  What the what?  Erica, like myself,  flat out said yeah I never really gave a second thought to someone touching my car windows.  I mean he just couldn't let it go.. and he had all kinds of time to plan out how he could respond to it and not look like a psycho, but instead he came off worse.... he's got real anger problems and control issues.  

Mark must really hate birds...

[DangerousMinds]

I think from Mark's point of view - he has already dedicated the past 20 years of his adult life to raising children (and probably paying for their educations). They are now all adults and will be living their own independent lives now. He wanted a wife for companionship and he knows he isn't getting any younger. This is probably hard for Elise and his other kids to understand. Now, that said, the way he went about the whole thing is another story . . . 

[okerry]

Very well said. I love being a US citizen, I love this country, on days like the Fourth of July I'm the one who brings out the American flag, not my American-born, military veteran husband. But I still love my home country, I miss it dearly. It's easy to expect foreign spouses and other immigrants to completely give up their home countries and traditions, but in reality it's not that easy. And if every foreigner did give up their traditions, food, etc, then there wouldn't be places like Little Italy, China Town, etc. Yet those naturalized citizens are every bit, if not more, as patriotic as many Americans who were born here. 

I understand what you're saying. I've also seen cases where, once the fiancee got here, they were very disdainful and dismissive of America and its culture, and very, very racist towards certain other groups because that's how it was in their home country. The guys who brought them over never thought of that, and in any case had just assumed that their fiancees would be so grateful and appreciative to be here and be granted citizenship that they'd love America, too. But it doesn't always work that way, and I'm just saying that people looking to bring over foreign spouses might want to think about that.

[still hoping]

Sorry but I still do not understand the sympathy for Nikki....

 

 if the premise of the show was "watch foreigners hook up with Americans for a green card and a payoff" then I guess all this concern for  Nikki would be appropriate

 

from the start of this show that has been the question....green card or love?

 

With Nikki the answer is obvious...no matter how skeevy Mark is, Nikki is just an opportunist and who cares if she doesn't cash in as she hopes? not me

I think she is an insult to the real couples

[DangerousMinds]

Sorry but I still do not understand the sympathy for Nikki....

 

 if the premise of the show was "watch foreigners hook up with Americans for a green card and a payoff" then I guess all this concern for  Nikki would be appropriate

 

from the start of this show that has been the question....green card or love?

 

With Nikki the answer is obvious...no matter how skeevy Mark is, Nikki is just an opportunist and who cares if she doesn't cash in as she hopes? not me

I think she is an insult to the real couples

From an article on today's Politico.com:

 

Lawmakers are rushing to tighten the nation’s border controls in the wake of terrorist attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, California. But even amid that push, they’ve been wary of singling out so-called fiancé visas — which one of the San Bernardino shooters used to enter the United States.

One of the biggest reasons: Republicans are reluctant to undermine a program that supports marriage.

Story Continued Below

“They don’t want to cross Cupid,” Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) said of Congress’ reluctance to restrict fiancé visas. Lawmakers “think a fiancée is certainly someone who had fallen madly and deeply in love with their fiancé so therefore, why would you interrupt a visa that’s designed to put people together and start new families here?”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/congress-fiance-visa-republicans-marriage-216570#ixzz3tr5TLiSz

 

Pretty funny, huh?

[Danag]

This is the first time that I've read the Instagram from Elise. It must have been traumatic for her to realize that her father is so wacked and selfish; He chose a woman over his kids. Although Mark didn't need anyone's approval, he should have considered his kids feelings, too. Once you have children, you are a family. Elise is wise beyond her years. It's not fair that she had to endure all the ridicule on social media, about her sicko father.

 

When Mark speaks about his children , it's almost with derision. He sounds resentful, and like they were a burden. Somehow, he didn't feel that the kids were his responsibility, too....physically or financially. There is an implication that it's a woman's job.

 

WHY do I get this suspicion that his EX wife couldn't take it anymore, and left with the clothes on her back because EVERYTHING was HIS? And that is how he ended up with 4 kids. She may have thought that she had no rights being from another country....He sounds too bitter about taking care of the children (Elise has to hear it all the time, and she must feel terrible), and says that his Ex changed....well how long did he expect her to stay oppressed?

I would really love to hear her side of the story.

[RCharter]

This is the first time that I've read the Instagram from Elise. It must have been traumatic for her to realize that her father is so wacked and selfish; He chose a woman over his kids. Although Mark didn't need anyone's approval, he should have considered his kids feelings, too. Once you have children, you are a family. Elise is wise beyond her years. It's not fair that she had to endure all the ridicule on social media, about her sicko father.

 

When Mark speaks about his children , it's almost with derision. He sounds resentful, and like they were a burden. Somehow, he didn't feel that the kids were his responsibility, too....physically or financially. There is an implication that it's a woman's job.

 

WHY do I get this suspicion that his EX wife couldn't take it anymore, and left with the clothes on her back because EVERYTHING was HIS? And that is how he ended up with 4 kids. She may have thought that she had no rights being from another country....He sounds too bitter about taking care of the children (Elise has to hear it all the time, and she must feel terrible), and says that his Ex changed....well how long did he expect her to stay oppressed?

I would really love to hear her side of the story.

Not to mention that he probably fought her for every single penny she got from their marriage.  The kids may just have been a part of that.  He knew that her having custody of the children would mean she would get more of HIS money, so he decided he would keep them.  Perhaps not out of any great affection for them, but because he just didn't want to have to fork over any additional money.  As long as they were in his house he could feed and clothe them with as little expense as possible.

[GracieK]

This is the first time that I've read the Instagram from Elise. It must have been traumatic for her to realize that her father is so wacked and selfish; He chose a woman over his kids. Although Mark didn't need anyone's approval, he should have considered his kids feelings, too. Once you have children, you are a family. Elise is wise beyond her years. It's not fair that she had to endure all the ridicule on social media, about her sicko father.

 

When Mark speaks about his children , it's almost with derision. He sounds resentful, and like they were a burden. Somehow, he didn't feel that the kids were his responsibility, too....physically or financially. There is an implication that it's a woman's job.

 

WHY do I get this suspicion that his EX wife couldn't take it anymore, and left with the clothes on her back because EVERYTHING was HIS? And that is how he ended up with 4 kids. She may have thought that she had no rights being from another country....He sounds too bitter about taking care of the children (Elise has to hear it all the time, and she must feel terrible), and says that his Ex changed....well how long did he expect her to stay oppressed?

I would really love to hear her side of the story.

 

This is the crux of it in the context of his children, imo.   I mean yes, they are adults (albeit still young ones) and Mark is free, having raised them, to make his own decisions regarding his personal and romantic life.  BUT he also chose to flaunt this questionable relationship on television which has subjected his entire family to a shit storm of criticism and social media ridicule.  I think Elise was cautious, yet honest, gracious and mature in her statement regarding her feelings on the situation.  I have a tough time understanding the pov that she is selfish or entitled.

Edited December 9, 2015 by GracieK

[still hoping]

I do feel for Mark's kids....Nikki doesn't....and yeah I don't care about Nikki

 

she needs to go back to the Karaoke bar 

 

IMHO Nikki is no different from season 2 Mo.

[Yolapukka]

 

 

WHY do I get this suspicion that his EX wife couldn't take it anymore, and left with the clothes on her back because EVERYTHING was HIS? And that is how he ended up with 4 kids. She may have thought that she had no rights being from another country....He sounds too bitter about taking care of the children (Elise has to hear it all the time, and she must feel terrible), and says that his Ex changed....well how long did he expect her to stay oppressed?

I would really love to hear her side of the story.

 

I wonder if his ex made a considered decision to forgo primary physical custody of her kids because she suspected Mark was the type of guy who would be controlling, difficult and nit-picky over support, time spent with children and any expenses and costs not explicitly addressed in their divorce. And yes, she may have felt that she didn't have the rights or resources to fight him effectively. Mark seems like the kind of guy that would ditch time he was supposed to spend with his kids, complain bitterly about child support while not actually paying it and join a father's rights group to complain about it all. They would have had a toxic or barely existing relationship with their father instead of one that was probably far from perfect but mostly Ok. He's their dad, he's a big ol' persnickety weirdo and that would have been true even if the first marriage had gone well instead of ending (which I highly doubt was possible....) All we really know is he complains about being left with "four kids in diapers", that his wife was the one who paid child support and was present in their lives after the divorce. 

Edited December 9, 2015 by yuggapukka

[RCharter]

I wonder if his ex made a considered decision to forgo primary physical custody of her kids because she suspected Mark was the type of guy who would be controlling, difficult and nit-picky over support, time spent with children and any expenses and costs not explicitly addressed in their divorce. And yes, she may have felt that she didn't have the rights or resources to fight him effectively. Mark seems like the kind of guy that would ditch time he was supposed to spend with his kids, complain bitterly about child support while not actually paying it and join a father's rights group to complain about it all. They would have had a toxic or barely existing relationship with their father instead of one that was probably far from perfect but mostly Ok. He's their dad, he's a big ol' persnickety weirdo and that would have been true even if the first marriage had gone well instead of ending (which I highly doubt was possible....) All we really know is he complains about being left with "four kids in diapers", that his wife was the one who paid child support and was present in their lives after the divorce. 

I can say with near certainty that Mark would have complained bitterly about every, solitary penny he would have had to hand over to his ex-wife to support their children.  There would be constant questions about what exactly she was spending the money on, why couldn't she just buy two Costco sized boxes of Eggo waffles to feed them for the month.

 

If he kept the kids, he could choose to spend as much, or as little on them as he wanted.  However, if they went to her, it would be a court determining how much their support should be.  I don't think he stole from his children, but I imagine he didn't spend much of his own money on their support.

[lavenderpenguin]

I do feel for Mark's kids....Nikki doesn't....and yeah I don't care about Nikki

 

she needs to go back to the Karaoke bar 

 

IMHO Nikki is no different from season 2 Mo.

 

Why would Nikki care about Mark's kids? They are Mark's kids, he should be the one concerned that he's embarrassing all of them with this circus.

 

In Nikki's defense, she's been a lot more cooperative, pleasant, and affectionate than Mohamed ever was with Dani. Mohamed could barely conceal his utter repulsion, whereas Nikki has at least tried to be as positive as possible -- she slept in his bedroom (forgoing the guest room), kept that stupid ziptie, wore a $10 wedding dress, was willing to initiate affection with Mark, etc. She's not been demanding or difficult, except when Mark really pushed her buttons by being either rude or creepy about his ex-wife.

[3girlsforus]

I think it is probably hard on Erica to watch her dad constantly say 'my ex-wife did this' making it so clear that he's trying to replacing her. Every time he says something about the ex, he's talking about her mother.  She was there for all of the family dynamics but now she's older and has a different perspective. 

[okerry]

I think the debate here is over "Marrying for love" versus "Marrying for security/as a business deal." It's a very old question; if anyone is familiar with Pride and Prejudice, there is a subplot in it about a girl who married for security rather than for love and whether that was okay or not.

 

My take is that sure, marrying for security/money is okay as long as you admit that's what it is and both parties are 100% okay with it. Again, I've seen cases IRL where one thought it was love and the other knew it was for money and U.S. citizenship. Bad, bad deal.

 

I think that what bugs so much about Mark and NIkki is that they both want to portray themselves as having this wonderful romantic story and great love, when the whole world can see that it isn't. Just be honest about, for Pete's sake, and maybe you wouldn't get so much flack from everybody.

[RCharter]

I think the debate here is over "Marrying for love" versus "Marrying for security/as a business deal." It's a very old question; if anyone is familiar with Pride and Prejudice, there is a subplot in it about a girl who married for security rather than for love and whether that was okay or not.

 

My take is that sure, marrying for security/money is okay as long as you admit that's what it is and both parties are 100% okay with it. Again, I've seen cases IRL where one thought it was love and the other knew it was for money and U.S. citizenship. Bad, bad deal.

 

I think that what bugs so much about Mark and NIkki is that they both want to portray themselves as having this wonderful romantic story and great love, when the whole world can see that it isn't. Just be honest about, for Pete's sake, and maybe you wouldn't get so much flack from everybody.

I love all things Jane Austen and nothing more than Pride and Prejudice.  At first I was saddened by the marriage you were talking about, since the cousin (I forget his name...Mr. Collins?) was such a blowhard.  But she seemed to grow into happiness.  I think when you come from a place where you don't particularly expect to be happy, but that you'll try to make yourself as happy as possible its easier to be satisfied.  And I suspected that was the situation in P&P.  The woman had her house, she had her garden, yeah, she had to listen to Collins the blowhard, but she enjoyed her life and may have even enjoyed listening to him.  

 

I do think Nikki is trying to make the best of a shit situation and maybe she knows the party line is that its a great love story so she is sticking to it.  But I don't know that she is even old enough to understand that you can feel more than just kindness towards a man....that there are feelings beyond that.  And those feelings don't really have anything to do with sex.

[WhoAmIReally]

I think I am feeling some withdrawl symptoms.  No more Mark and Nikki for us until the lawsuits start.  Hopefully, Elise will post things now and again and we'll get some idea of how things are going.  Let us weep together, brethren.

[jujuebes]

I think I am feeling some withdrawl symptoms.  No more Mark and Nikki for us until the lawsuits start.  Hopefully, Elise will post things now and again and we'll get some idea of how things are going.  Let us weep together, brethren.

 

I think everyone should order some 1980's AA meeting chairs and only sit on them while posting so we can get in to the mindset of Mark, we will be hardasses in no time!

[RCharter]

I think everyone should order some 1980's AA meeting chairs and only sit on them while posting so we can get in to the mindset of Mark, we will be hardasses in no time!

can I eat microwave pancakes while I post? and wear my zebra sheets?

[Foreign-wife]

Just don't wake me with a whistle.

[RCharter]

I think everyone should order some 1980's AA meeting chairs and only sit on them while posting so we can get in to the mindset of Mark, we will be hardasses in no time!

 

 

can I eat microwave pancakes while I post? and wear my zebra sheets?

 

 

Just don't wake me with a whistle.

I can't wait, we are going to make party for sure!

[jujuebes]

I think everyone should order some 1980's AA meeting chairs and only sit on them while posting so we can get in to the mindset of Mark, we will be hardasses in no time!

 

can I eat microwave pancakes while I post? and wear my zebra sheets?

 

Just don't wake me with a whistle.

 

I can't wait, we are going to make party for sure!

We just need everyone to sign the pre-MARK agreement.

[IvySpice]

I know is well-trodden ground, but OMG when Mark said he had thick skin and then turned around to say that only lonely obese jealous women would dare talk smack about him on the internet...

 

Well, Mark, on the slimmest of chances that you're reading this, I married my best friend in August...in a size 6 wedding dress. He's 7 years older than me and knows that treating me with love and respect goes a lot deeper than buying roses. And yet I think you're a gigantic loser! You can't figure out how to function with a woman, and that's why you had to buy yourself a needy little girl. So since I'm thin, well-loved, and happy, what's your explanation for my opinion about you? Is it just my uterus that's clouding my judgment?

[okerry]

I love all things Jane Austen and nothing more than Pride and Prejudice.  At first I was saddened by the marriage you were talking about, since the cousin (I forget his name...Mr. Collins?) was such a blowhard.  But she seemed to grow into happiness.  I think when you come from a place where you don't particularly expect to be happy, but that you'll try to make yourself as happy as possible its easier to be satisfied.  And I suspected that was the situation in P&P.  The woman had her house, she had her garden, yeah, she had to listen to Collins the blowhard, but she enjoyed her life and may have even enjoyed listening to him.  

 

Yes, in Pride and Prejudice that was Charlotte Lucas, who married the unattractive but respectable Mr. Collins. Her friend Lizzie was appalled that she would marry for security rather than love, but Charlotte was under no illusions and did not try to convince anyone - including herself - that it was for anything other than "a comfortable home and protection," as she said. I think she did grow into contentment, if not real happiness, eventually, but that was fine with her and she didn't seem to need anything more.

 

I think some of our 90-dayers would be far better off if they were a lot more honest about why they're doing this, and probably get ragged on a lot less by the fans.

[Cherrio]

We just need everyone to sign the pre-MARK agreement.

You guys forgot about the fake silver chafing pans, track lighting and wall phones.     Seriously, when I think of Mark eating I feel like puking.

[jujuebes]

You guys forgot about the fake silver chafing pans, track lighting and wall phones.     Seriously, when I think of Mark eating I feel like puking.

I didn't notice the first two, but when I saw that wall phone by the bed I said wtf, but then I was instantly wondering if there was one in the bathroom...

 

Why hasn't he converted that phone to a modern wireless? Is it incase the power goes out and his cellphone is drained???

 

This is another reason why I think Mark is mentally messed up from the divorce or always like this?

 

Mark - MEIN MEIN MEIN!

Edited December 10, 2015 by jujuebes

[jujuebes]

I also really hate to take this stand point since I hate Mark...

 

Everyone calls him cheap, but maybe he is just getting by?

 

Being a guy and a partly disgusting one, my logic of thinking is if it isn't broken, why replace it? Maybe Mark is like me, if this set of clothes, if this phone, if this bed, if this car etc isn't a problem why waste money on replacing it if it still serves its purpose?

Edited December 10, 2015 by jujuebes

[still hoping]

LOL...."Make Party"

 

Did anyone see season 1, the older guy, very fit, owned a gym....and young east European gal....who stood him up, could not go through wit/h it, tlc pulled them off

show and only put their story online.....he was a better "catch" than Mark, alt/hough also smug and delusional

 

Most people called her gold digger even tho she could not go through with it

 

I don't like to see real users on the show or IRL

 

Who here truly thinks Nikki is in love? Nobody. Yet many worry about her - I say go back home

Of course her prospects are not great there = Karaoke bars cater to local men, not wealthy tourists

she apparently had a bf in his 30s, from calif

she knows how to use the internet - she can try again 

 

Most of the couples had real relationships 

F and Caro lived together in Columbia 1 year

Noon and Kyle took motorcycle trip in Vietnam

Alex and Josh were friends 2? years and so forth

BUT Nikki went into this with one meeting

IMHO it is  sort of "long con" - Mark is  a dud, but she got tv exposure

she can meet a better marry for greenbacks and green card guy

 

Nikki and MO - gold diggers

[jujuebes]

she knows how to use the internet - she can try again 

 

I've typed several posts and MANY paragraphs about the maturity factor only to delete it...

 

She has common sense and the capabilities of the internet these days is crazy to the point of never needing to know anything.

 

Is a 59 year old up to date on technology that a underaged girl can figure out??? I think not. Who is playing who?

Edited December 10, 2015 by jujuebes

[RCharter]

Yes, in Pride and Prejudice that was Charlotte Lucas, who married the unattractive but respectable Mr. Collins. Her friend Lizzie was appalled that she would marry for security rather than love, but Charlotte was under no illusions and did not try to convince anyone - including herself - that it was for anything other than "a comfortable home and protection," as she said. I think she did grow into contentment, if not real happiness, eventually, but that was fine with her and she didn't seem to need anything more.

 

I think some of our 90-dayers would be far better off if they were a lot more honest about why they're doing this, and probably get ragged on a lot less by the fans.

I think that could be exactly Nikki's situation.  And one which she has accepted.  I can see Mark being the driver of "the greatest love story ever told" but I think Nikki seems far more like Charlotte in that she is hoping for mutual kindness that will grow into contentment.  However, its hard to grow into contentment if someone is always mean to you, constantly reminding you that they can "send you back" if you upset them, and telling you not to put your hands on the windows and not to touch the books in the library.  I'll always think that age difference is strange and not cool, I don't even think they had age differences that great in Jane Austen novels.  However, I think Nikki isn't hoping for some grand love, she just wants to be happy and may be content to stick with Mark if she could be content.

[guilfoyleatpp]

I think that could be exactly Nikki's situation.  And one which she has accepted.  I can see Mark being the driver of "the greatest love story ever told" but I think Nikki seems far more like Charlotte in that she is hoping for mutual kindness that will grow into contentment.  However, its hard to grow into contentment if someone is always mean to you, constantly reminding you that they can "send you back" if you upset them, and telling you not to put your hands on the windows and not to touch the books in the library.  I'll always think that age difference is strange and not cool, I don't even think they had age differences that great in Jane Austen novels.  However, I think Nikki isn't hoping for some grand love, she just wants to be happy and may be content to stick with Mark if she could be content.

OMG you guys are KILLING me with this reference. Love Pride and Prejudice.

 

Mark is Mr. Collins! Mr. Collins thinks he's part of some great love story (tied in with filial duty) and that his attention to an "elegant female" is not only warranted, but desired greatly by that female! And he talks too much. He has little idea of social rules and always brags about the wealth of his sponsor, Lady Catherine, embarrassing everyone. And he's clueless.

 

And yet Charlotte was ok with him. She often told Elizabeth that happiness in marriage was a matter of chance and she could make herself happy with Mr. Collins while relieving her family of the burden of supporting her.

 

No one wants to imagine themselves as Charlotte, but Charlotte is a smart cookie who never overtly ridicules Mr. Collins. 

 

Love it. Love. It.

[WhoAmIReally]

I also really hate to take this stand point since I hate Mark...

 

Everyone calls him cheap, but maybe he is just getting by?

 

Being a guy and a partly disgusting one, my logic of thinking is if it isn't broken, why replace it? Maybe Mark is like me, if this set of clothes, if this phone, if this bed, if this car etc isn't a problem why waste money on replacing it if it still serves its purpose?

 

I couldn't agree more with this.  Most single men I know decorate a place when they move in, and then they pretty much leave it.  Hell, my grandparents were pretty much the same way.  This "updated kitchen" stuff that you hear about now, where everyone has to have stainless appliances and granite countertops has become bizarrely pervasive.  Everybody's house, exclusive of when it was built, now has identical kitchens.  1930's farmhouse?  Same!  1910's brownstone?  Same!  1950's suburban cottage?  Same!  2010 McMansion?  Same!  At least Mark is being true to the architectual integrity of his house.  Based on the spackled ceilings, I'd guess it was built in the late 70's or early 80's?  Of course, that was an ugly period, but at least the decor is historically correct, zebra sheets, brass doo-dads, wall phones, glass coffetable, and all.  I would suggest he get a real dining room table and replace the old mattress (although it apparently hasn't seen any action for over 20 years), though.  And it's still probably a hell of a lot nicer than anything Nikki's used to (except hotel rooms, that is).