NFL Thread

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, meowmommy said:

I agree on both counts.  Peyton was always going to be a slam dunk, even if he'd never come back from the neck injury and gone to Denver at all.  But he would have had to argue with Eli at every Thanksgiving dinner about whether a yellow jacket is better than two SB rings.  😉

Well, given that Eli will almost certainly get in one day it's a good thing he snagged that second one.

[Fukui San]

Please remember this discourse when Eli Manning makes the HOF. There should be a congressional law that states that if and when Eli Manning makes the HOF then Julian Edelman must be inducted as well.

[meowmommy]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Well, given that Eli will almost certainly get in one day it's a good thing he snagged that second one.

I bleed Big Blue, and have done so for over 50 years, and I treasure each of the four SB wins, but if Eli gets into the HoF, then that will be overwhelming evidence that it's become all about the SBs.  He simply did not have a HoF career.

[DoctorAtomic]

I'd give Namath simply because the superbowl wouldn't be what it is now without the 'broadway' Joe. That's entirely fair within the context of 1969 professional football and the ensuing legacy. Also what other quarterback did a panyhose ad?  

 

[Peace 47]

Plus, how can we forget Namath’s important advocacy for awareness about the pitfalls of vapor lock?  
 

 

[cambridgeguy]

Don't forget he inspired Mona Simpson too!

 

[Johannah]

I don't think winning Superbowls should be a major factor in getting into Canton, either.  It's such a TEAM sport, the supporting cast is essential to any player's success.  I also don't think Pro Bowl status should count, either.  That's just a popularity contest where the players on more visible teams (whether by team success or popularity) get voted.  I also agree that The Hall of Fame is becoming the Hall of Pretty Good or the Hall of Good But Mostly Just Popular.

[mojoween]

I didn’t think I could ever mean fuck the cowboys harder, but FUCK the cowboys and their degenerate owner.

The Steelers have hired Brian Flores.  Great.  The most progressive team in the league proves that they are progressive.  I’ll never root for Pittsburgh, but I root for Brian to do well.

[Carey]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:59 PM, Fukui San said:

Please remember this discourse when Eli Manning makes the HOF. There should be a congressional law that states that if and when Eli Manning makes the HOF then Julian Edelman must be inducted as well.

Couldn't disagree more.  This might sound harsh, and the following is just my opinion: Comparing or linking Eli Manning to Julian Edelman is like comparing or linking Peyton Manning to Jim Finn.

All four of the above mentioned men combine for 8 superbowl championships.  I planned on posting before Johann posted; I agree & disagree at the same time when it comes to what's involved toward entry into Canton.  I think Pro Bowls hold a little more weight than Super Bowls.  It is a team sport, but HOF consideration typically depends on who you are, what you've done, and how best you contributed to the success of the sport.

I originally thought Eli Manning was getting in right away, in 2025.  A couple of reasons why: it's due to the name on the back of his jersey & there was no competition or threat.  Upon recently looking at the list, that is so not true.  There are several names that are decent candidates for Canton in three years.  Plus, I believe the 2022 class excludes first year eligible people.  The closest & most recent time that happened was in 2015.  Therefore, people like Eli will have to worry about the spillover.  In other words, decent candidates not making it the year before or in previous years.

Eli has made the Pro Bowl several times, and he was Top Ten in passing yards.  He had some great totals.  BTW, beating New England twice in the most important game (with a road win in Foxborough between that) is a big deal.  Especially that 2007 season.  Meanwhile, Edelman's career stats are very hollow.  Most are team friendly.  I believe he only had s 36 career TDS.  Zero Pro Bowl appearances; even though New England made the Super Bowl five times in his 12-year career, he wasn't close to being the best at his position.  The longevity is not there.  Really, if they want to put Edelman into Canton in 2026, then Manning has to go in before and definitely not after Julian.  Eli twice knocked off the top two conference teams (all on the road), and he knocked off the top two league teams.  Of course, his team, especially his defense was a bigger factor, but Manning didn't blow the game

[Chit Chat]

5 hours ago, mojoween said:

The most progressive team in the league proves that they are progressive.  I’ll never root for Pittsburgh, but I root for Brian to do well.

I'm pretty proud of the Buc's Coaching Roster as well!!

[Carey]

Yes, the Steelers are great.  Well, in my opinion.  The organization has done great things.  We'll see what happens with Flores in Pittsburgh.  I have to "second" ChitChat.  Their coaching roster is super awesome.  Ten years from now, I don't think I'll bet on more than 20% of the league emulating something like that

[DoctorAtomic]

It's not been an automatic lock that two time Superbowl winning QBs get in to the hall of fame. Should it? I'm not sure. I tend to not think so. I would put more weight on just getting there because the Superbowl itself is only one game and really anything can happen. Literally no one on the planet would have predicted a Superbowl would start on a high snap and lead to a safety.

Elway made it 5 times, and was in the lead prior to Brady. That's really good over a long period of time, adding which he consistently producing at his position. I lean to that. There's a collective heuristic that's still a holdover from the Niners in the 80s and Cowboys in the 90s about a 'dynasty', and I put that in quotes because I think it's an archaic term, with no repeat champion in a generation - it's been 2 decades now, but it still colors the conversation. 

It's a curse for QBs. It's a team sport, but the QB is the face of the team. When the *team* wins; Ravens, Bears, Dolphins, then no one says anything. When they lose, the QB is blamed. 

[Moose135]

24 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's not been an automatic lock that two time Superbowl winning QBs get in to the hall of fame.

How about a two-time Super Bowl MVP?

[Fukui San]

Edelman should've had Eli's longetivity! He should've tacked on seven years as one of the worst starters in the league, going from 23 games over .500 to a .500 starter during that span, never better than 12th in passer rating in all that time and usually closer to the bottom than the top! Hall of Famer!

Honestly Eli's career would've looked more impressive if he had dropped dead in 2012 instead of embodying mediocrity for seven seasons. He's Andy Dalton who was fortunate to be on the right team twice. 

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's not been an automatic lock that two time Superbowl winning QBs get in to the hall of fame. Should it? I'm not sure. I tend to not think so. I would put more weight on just getting there because the Superbowl itself is only one game and really anything can happen. Literally no one on the planet would have predicted a Superbowl would start on a high snap and lead to a safety.

It's pretty close.  The following QBs have won at least two SBs as starters - Brady, Peyton, Eli, Ben, Montana, Bradshaw, Staubach, Starr, Elway, Griese, Aikman, and Plunkett.  Plunkett's the only eligible one who isn't in. 

And there's a bigger debate about how much counting stats should be weighed these days.  Rivers and Matt Ryan are top 10 in yards - are they HOFers?  Does long term steady production outweigh short term transcendence?  Kurt Warner had three superb seasons in St. Louis, three good ones in Arizona, and a bunch of crappy ones in between.  Do those relatively small number of great years matter more than longevity?

[merylinkid]

If you have to have a long debate and bring stats into it, maybe the person doesn't belong in the HOF.    As others have said, its the Hall of Fame -- the best of the best, game changers.   to me its people instantly recognizable even to casual fans.   Players who just stood out some much you knew they were great.   if you have to go "well X had more receiving yards than Y or that QB had more SB rings than that other QB" you are getting into justifications instead of just going "Wow of course."

VERY few players meet this standard.

Of course my current push for who should be in the HOF is Amy Trask.   Fingers crossed because she is FINALLY actually being mentioned in the contributor category.   I mean how many other CEOs had their own nickname?  

[meowmommy]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:12 AM, merylinkid said:

Of course my current push for who should be in the HOF is Amy Trask.   Fingers crossed because she is FINALLY actually being mentioned in the contributor category.   I mean how many other CEOs had their own nickname?  

I can't stand the Raiders, but Amy Trask getting into the HoF would bring me close to the same sense of pride I'll feel if we ever get a female POTUS. 

[kathyk24]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:26 PM, Carey said:

Couldn't disagree more.  This might sound harsh, and the following is just my opinion: Comparing or linking Eli Manning to Julian Edelman is like comparing or linking Peyton Manning to Jim Finn.

All four of the above mentioned men combine for 8 superbowl championships.  I planned on posting before Johann posted; I agree & disagree at the same time when it comes to what's involved toward entry into Canton.  I think Pro Bowls hold a little more weight than Super Bowls.  It is a team sport, but HOF consideration typically depends on who you are, what you've done, and how best you contributed to the success of the sport.

I originally thought Eli Manning was getting in right away, in 2025.  A couple of reasons why: it's due to the name on the back of his jersey & there was no competition or threat.  Upon recently looking at the list, that is so not true.  There are several names that are decent candidates for Canton in three years.  Plus, I believe the 2022 class excludes first year eligible people.  The closest & most recent time that happened was in 2015.  Therefore, people like Eli will have to worry about the spillover.  In other words, decent candidates not making it the year before or in previous years.

Eli has made the Pro Bowl several times, and he was Top Ten in passing yards.  He had some great totals.  BTW, beating New England twice in the most important game (with a road win in Foxborough between that) is a big deal.  Especially that 2007 season.  Meanwhile, Edelman's career stats are very hollow.  Most are team friendly.  I believe he only had s 36 career TDS.  Zero Pro Bowl appearances; even though New England made the Super Bowl five times in his 12-year career, he wasn't close to being the best at his position.  The longevity is not there.  Really, if they want to put Edelman into Canton in 2026, then Manning has to go in before and definitely not after Julian.  Eli twice knocked off the top two conference teams (all on the road), and he knocked off the top two league teams.  Of course, his team, especially his defense was a bigger factor, but Manning didn't blow the game

I disagree without Julian Edelman the Patriots probably don't get to the Super Bowl. He was so clutch especially when Gronk was hurt.  A catch that leads to points is just as important as the catch that scores points.

[Chit Chat]

I'm going on record and saying that although I tried to give Antonio Brown the benefit of the doubt as to his mental health when he walked off of the field at a Buc's game, now he's just being a butthole about the whole thing.  No need to trash TB.  Afterall, the guy took him in and tried to help him.  Sheesh!

[mojoween]

Rumor has it that Troy Aikman is considering bolting from FOX for Monday Night Football and that is excellent news for ESPN.  Not so much for FOX.

[Chit Chat]

I was wondering if Mike Tirico was being considered (or if he wants it) for Al Michael's spot.  Didn't he fill in for him some last year?  He's really good.  I enjoy listening to him.  

For anyone who hasn't seen it, A Bad Lip Reading of the NFL (2022 version).  

Edited February 24, 2022 by ChitChat

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

Rumor has it that Troy Aikman is considering bolting from FOX for Monday Night Football and that is excellent news for ESPN.  Not so much for FOX.

I can't stand Aikman.  I may hold the unpopular opinion of preferring Buck over him.  So, as someone who gets a lot of the Buck/Aikman duo because they cover the NFC---buh bye! I'd maybe only have to deal with him once a year as opposed to multiple games a season.

54 minutes ago, ChitChat said:

I was wondering if Mike Tirico was being considered (or if he wants it) for Al Michael's spot.  Didn't he fill in for him some last year?  He's really good.  I enjoy listening to him. 

I am pretty sure NBC brought Tirico over to replace Al Michaels who may not have wanted to retire which is why there is talk of him joining Amazon Prime's Thursday night coverage.

[Chit Chat]

7 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I am pretty sure NBC brought Tirico over to replace Al Michaels who may not have wanted to retire which is why there is talk of him joining Amazon Prime's Thursday night coverage.

Thanks.  I didn't know any of the story behind Al leaving NBC.  I still like Al & Cris broadcasting together, but I thought that Al wanted to leave.  I hope that NBC didn't kick him to the curb! Pffft if they did.  

[twoods]

2 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I'm going on record and saying that although I tried to give Antonio Brown the benefit of the doubt as to his mental health when he walked off of the field at a Buc's game, now he's just being a butthole about the whole thing.  No need to trash TB.  Afterall, the guy took him in and tried to help him.  Sheesh!

I don’t know why all of his articles keep popping up in my feed, and why the media still covers him. He’s trying to stay relevant when nobody cares about his narcissistic ass anymore. He needs to fade into oblivion.

[merylinkid]

Al MIchaels didn't even do all the Sunday night games this year.   I think it was by choice.   With NBC, it was not just Sunday night games, they sometimes did a Thursday AND a Sunday game.   At his age, he just didn't want to travel so much.   With the MNF gig or the Amazon gig, that's ONE game a week and not even all season.   

As for Troy, going from Sunday afternoon games that not everyone got in their market to  one showcased game a week (except for the abomination they are planning for one night where they are two games on staggered), it is a real step up.   

[bluegirl147]

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

As for Troy, going from Sunday afternoon games that not everyone got in their market to  one showcased game a week (except for the abomination they are planning for one night where they are two games on staggered), it is a real step up.   

And he will get Thanksgiving off.

[Peace 47]

My understanding was that NBC brought Mike Tirico over several years ago to be their marquee broadcaster:  a replacement for Bob Costas (whose own relationship with NBC had been souring for several years prior) to host things like Olympics coverage and other premier sporting events, and yes, also someone to replace Al Michaels for the call on NBC football broadcasts.

But the NFL balked when NBC first tried to sub in Tirico for Michaels a couple of years ago and said that they were holding NBC to having Michaels on the call.  It was only the NFL that saved Michaels from being sidelined at the time.  So NBC decided just to wait out Michaels’ contract to put Tirico in, and that is why it is all coming to a head this year.  Michaels apparently does not feel ready to retire and has made comments to that effect in recent interviews.

I don’t care for Tirico.  He had some serious sexual harassment allegations against him at ESPN in the 1990s, but I guess no allegations since then.  Still, I just don’t particularly enjoy his style or his voice.

[meowmommy]

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

I don’t care for Tirico.  He had some serious sexual harassment allegations against him at ESPN in the 1990s, but I guess no allegations since then.  Still, I just don’t particularly enjoy his style or his voice.

I remember that about Tirico.  Both the sexual harassment allegations and the plan for him to be NBC's main NFL guy.

But I cannot stand Al Michaels.  He became famous because of the Miracle on Ice call, and then after the 1989 earthquake during game 1 of the World Series, he basically did an all-night travelogue of San Francisco and Oakland in the dark that somehow got him awards.  Ever since then, he's been completely insufferable, as if he's all that.

Not a great play-by-play man to begin with that I could ever see, and over time he's made some pretty noticeable mistakes that either go right by, or that Cris Collinsworth has had to correct.  Last year when the two of them were required to wear masks to cover a game in Santa Clara, they about had a snit fit like the overpaid, privileged, pampered darlings they are.  The sooner both of them go out to pasture, the better.

JMNSHO.  YMMV.

[Carey]

Really, at the end of the day, a true football fan watches the games for the on field stuff, not the people calling them.

However, it is important when it comes to who calls a game you're watching.  As much I probably could do without Collinsworth, he is pretty good on the call.  Romo is overrated, and Aikman is making a smart business decision.  BTW, it's rather uncommon for someone to leave their post right before a season in which the network the individual is bolting from has the Super Bowl at season's end.

In other words, Aikman would've been on the call for the Super Bowl had he stayed one more year.  Not a total big deal since he's called nine six of them and played in three others

Edited March 1, 2022 by Carey
Troy Aikman was apart of 10 SB, 3 as the QB and 6 on the call. One more if you count his cameo for SB 50

[JTMacc99]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:26 PM, Fukui San said:

Honestly Eli's career would've looked more impressive if he had dropped dead in 2012 instead of embodying mediocrity for seven seasons. He's Andy Dalton who was fortunate to be on the right team twice. 

I like this bolded quote because it's a common thought about Eli and because I can offer you concrete evidence that it is not true. 

The Giants tried to, and were very successful, fail Eli with the crap roster they put around him, and it actually started well before 2012.

Let's start with 2011...

The Giants were fortunate that Eli was on their team that year. Adding together the regular season and post season, Eli threw for 6,152 yards, 38 TDs and 17 int.

As for the rest of the team... The Giants that year were dead last in the league in rushing yards and had a 16th ranked (yards) defense. 

Per this chart, the 2011 NY Giants were far and away the team that gave the least help to their quarterback and still make a Super Bowl since 2010.

They made and won the Super Bowl in 2011 entirely because of Eli Manning's play that year. There is simply no better example* of a team where one player carried the rest of his team on his back to a championship than Eli Manning in 2011. The Giants roster was a garbage fire for pretty much the second half of his career. (And hasn't been much better since he retired, but that's another discussion.)

Kurt Warner is in the Hall of Fame with essentially four good years on his resume. He has one championship in 1999, where he had a season that compares similarly to what Eli did but with a 5th ranked rushing offense and 6th ranked defense.  Warner had two other years where he went to (and lost) Super Bowls again with comparable (although not as good) combined stats as what Manning did in 2011. 

* Actually, interestingly enough, Warner's 2008 season is an excellent comparison to what Manning did in 2011. He also carried a dead last rushing offense and mediocre defense to the Super Bowl. He just didn't win.

And Warner's in the Hall of Fame with nobody questioning it. 

[merylinkid]

Warner is in the Hall of Fame because he had a cool back story.   yeah only on field stuff is supposed to matter.   But bagging groceries and thinking of quitting football to winning the Super Bowl gets noticed.   Then he took another team to a Super Bowl (and lost).   So it wasn't so much as what he actually accomplished as that he accomplished anything at all.   

Eli is getting in because 1) he is a Manning and if Arch got in with NO Super Bowl wins, you can't keep out Eli and 2) he ruined the Pats perfect season.

[Johannah]

Eh.  The Hall of Fame is going to be The Multiple Building Complex of Fame the way they keep adding players/people.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Johann

[meowmommy]

7 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Eli is getting in because 1) he is a Manning and if Arch got in with NO Super Bowl wins, you can't keep out Eli and 2) he ruined the Pats perfect season.

Archie's not in the Pro Football HoF.  He's in the College Football HoF and the Saints' HoF and Ring of Honor.

[Fukui San]

If playoff heroics count to a player's Hall of Fame resume, you put in Edelman or else miss me with the Eli Manning nonsense. Or else there is no argument as to why a .500 QB with a worse career passer rating than David Garrard would warrant Hall of Fame consideration.

Quote

Eli's durability and longevity boost him in a career that ended at .500 (117-117), with only two to three seasons in which he arguably could've been considered a top-10 quarterback.

Source: Gregg Rosenthal rating Eli as #32 of the 65 QBs who have started in a Super Bowl.

Put in Edelman and you can have Eli. End of story.

[Popples]

 

[xaxat]

With the news about Ridley, betting and the integrity of the game, I'm sure that the league is also involved in a similar investigation of Brian Flores' allegations that ownership wanted him to tank games.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[merylinkid]

14 hours ago, xaxat said:

With the news about Ridley, betting and the integrity of the game, I'm sure that the league is also involved in a similar investigation of Brian Flores' allegations that ownership wanted him to tank games.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Or as several people said on Twitter -- betting is worse than domestic violence to the League.  

the Ridley thing is just stupid.   He wasn't playing at the time, he used no insider information and he bet for his team to WIN against the Jags.   that's pretty much EVERY BETTOR OUT THERE.   So I am not sure how having a Sports Book IN stadiums doesn't harm the "integrity" of the game and this does.   

Goodell didn't like all the bad publicity about owners behaving terribly so he came down like a ton of brick of Ridley solely as a distraction.   

[cambridgeguy]

22 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Or as several people said on Twitter -- betting is worse than domestic violence to the League.  

Because they know most fans are willing to overlook off the field troubles.  Ray Lewis pleading guilty to obstruction to justice?  No biggie, look at how good he is!  Antonio Brown being accused of domestic violence?  Hey, TB needs a wide receiver to help win the Super Bowl, so I'll just feel a little queasy as my team hoists the Lombardi trophy.  Adam Jones assaults a dancer?  He's still a good player, so sign him!

[mojoween]

The punishment for gambling is collectively bargained.  Comparing what Ridley did, even if we can all see just how minor of an infraction it was, to anything  else isn’t really apt.

It sucks, but the players association did it.  The league came down hard on Ridley because that’s what was agreed to.

[bluegirl147]

3 hours ago, mojoween said:

 

It sucks, but the players association did it.  The league came down hard on Ridley because that’s what was agreed to.

And yet they can't have the same rules regarding domestic violence?  Tells me a lot about the priorities of players.

[Carey]

 

[NUguy514]

1 minute ago, Carey said:

 

That seems like a lot of money to spend to be one-and-done in the playoffs for four years.

[Carey]

42 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

That seems like a lot of money to spend to be one-and-done in the playoffs for four years.

It would be.  The thing is prior to this year the Packers won at least one playoff game in each of the past two seasons, and Aaron has won the league MVP four times (including each of the past two years).  Only one person won out of thousands of NFL players over the past several decades has won it more than Rodgers.

I think it's fair enough.  Green Bay did have those 2017-2018 seasons after a very good 2016 (postseason).  No Super Bowls is failure and while you probably don't go that high, I don't think A-Rod doesn't deserve it

[mojoween]

Russell Wilson to Denver is good for Denver.  I guess Seattle is in a rebuild…?

[emmawoodhouse]

Still pending physical and Wilson's approval. Russ may not want to play in Denver.

[Fukui San]

57 minutes ago, mojoween said:

Russell Wilson to Denver is good for Denver.  I guess Seattle is in a rebuild…?

At least they'll have good draft picks for the rebuild.

(Looks at Jamal Adams trade)

Oh.

[Fukui San]

And while I'm happy to dump on Goodell at every opportunity, suspending players for a year for gambling even trivial amounts seems to have a good precedent in the NFL.

Alex Karras, 1963

Paul Hornung, 1963

Art Schlichter, 1983

Josh Shaw, 2019

Karras and Hornung are Hall of Famers. Only Schlichter's bet was a very significant amount. Each suspended a season or more.

Non-punishments for domestic abuse, of course, is fair game for criticism.

[merylinkid]

Denver is going back to the "let's find a used QB rather than develop one" method.   They got two years out of Manning.    They need to develop a qb instead of renting one.

[Crashcourse]

I would suspend Ridley just for not wearing his mask over his damn nose.   I hate it when people don't wear their masks properly and I see that a lot with athletes, in particular.

[twoods]

7 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Denver is going back to the "let's find a used QB rather than develop one" method.   They got two years out of Manning.    They need to develop a qb instead of renting one.

Yeah but they got a SB out of him, so are hoping that Wilson will do the same.