Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[NoWillToResist]

I agree that it's a difficult situation. I don't believe that all super close, loyal male-male relationships must translate to 'gay', but I can completely understand why many of these relationships are read that way. Throw in the whole issue of representation and I can completely understand why people would embrace such a lovely pairing and want it to be made 'official'.

[FurryFury]

Late to the party, but I have to say I absolutely loved this movie, way more than I expected. Actually, it may even surpass Avengers 1 as my favorite MCU movie (we'll see - I need a rewatch or two, plus I've seen it in dub and the same day as the horrendous Flash season finale, after which any competently written movie would look like a masterpiece).

Anyway, my favorite thing was how all those different characters felt true to themselves despite having very different agendas. I think something like that was really  hard to pull off, and the writers succeeded (at least for my interpretation of these characters). It also felt very serialized and embedded in the larger universe, which, for me, is a huge bonus. It did a great job introducing new characters like Spider Man, Black Panther and I didn't expected for them to utilize Ant Man that well either. And the returning supporting characters fared well, too. I was very concerned before the movie about Natasha being on Tony's side, considering her relationships with Steve and Clint, but my fears were unfounded - I think the movie did a good job implying that hers (and Tony's) behavior at the beginning with the treaty was based on their guilt over their past actions and the desire to shift at least part of responsibility over their future actions to somebody else (in this case, the government). Although I still would want more Natasha, because she's awesome - kinda bummed she wasn't a part of the final showdown.

What I didn't like: Steve/Sharon kiss. Came out of nowhere, absolutely. I actually do think they have chemistry, but no, please. It's weird with the movie highlighting her connection to Peggy (*sniff* rest in peace, Peg! You were too good for this earth! Shit, this movie actually killed both Peg (off screen) and showed Howard's death in 1991, damn you, movie!) and the Steve/Sharon relationship wasn't developed at all. I do like her as a character, but please, let's pretend that kiss never happened. 

The ending was powerful - I expected for the status quo to be returned, and while it sorta did, it was made clear that the Avengers aren't the same anymore, and the rift between Tony and Steve won't be healed overnight. And Bucky, shit. I never really loved him like many do (I like Sebastian Stan, I just don't think Bucky's developed enough, he needs to have more relationships with characters that aren't Steve), but that was heartbreaking.

[Wynterwolf]

4 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

It also seems to me -- again speaking from the skewed perspective of a straight woman -- that if that is true, and I just missed the romantic elements, doesn't that feed into yet another stereotype ... That all close male friendships must be "gay"? That men can't cherish, even love, other men in a non-romantic way? Isn't that just another "can't sit next to each other at the movies" tired trope?

Is that a stereotype, though?  We don't see it on screen.  Fic writers take it there (often when there really isn't much subtext other than two attractive guys), but I think the explosion of fic for such a wide variety of pairings is partly because we never see it on screen... it never becomes "canon", so the fic is a response for fans to fill the void.  

In the MCU there is a lot of support for Steve/Tony and Steve/Sam, which I certainly get the appeal for both, but I don't see anything in the text or the performances that would lead me to think of their relationships that way, for me those are simply close male friendships.  And I didn't start seeing anything in Steve and Bucky until Winter Soldier, but Civil War just made if jump off the screen at me.  

[NoWillToResist]

5 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

 

In the MCU there is a lot of support for Steve/Tony and Steve/Sam, which I certainly get the appeal for both, but I don't see anything in the text or the performances that would lead me to think of their relationships that way, for me those are simply close male friendships.  And I didn't start seeing anything in Steve and Bucky until Winter Soldier, but Civil War just made if jump off the screen at me.  

I love how Steve is the common element there. Maybe Chris Evans just has better chemistry with his male co-stars... :D

[Wynterwolf]

LOL yes, he's the 'little black dress' of the MCU.

[Dandesun]

32 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

I love how Steve is the common element there. Maybe Chris Evans just has better chemistry with his male co-stars... :D

Steve is the Character That Launched A Thousand Ships. I mean, there's Steve/Bucky, Steve/Peggy, Steve/Tony, Steve/Sam, Steve/Natasha... and so much more.

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Steve is the Character That Launched A Thousand Ships. I mean, there's Steve/Bucky, Steve/Peggy, Steve/Tony, Steve/Sam, Steve/Natasha... and so much more.

Captain America,  indeed.

 

(Couldn't resist.)

[stealinghome]

Quote

Is that a stereotype, though?  We don't see it on screen.  Fic writers take it there (often when there really isn't much subtext other than two attractive guys), but I think the explosion of fic for such a wide variety of pairings is partly because we never see it on screen... it never becomes "canon", so the fic is a response for fans to fill the void.  

Yeah, I was going to say, I see the "there is a stereotype that two people of the same gender can't be close friends without it being gay, therefore they should be straight!" justification a lot, but is that actually a stereotype? Or is it a stereotype that people have made up to argue against taking same-sex friendships romantic? Because I feel like you could probably count on one hand the number of major pop culture instances of close same-sex friendships evolving into romance.

I can see where the text of CA:TWS and CA:CW would make people think Steve/Bucky, but while the text might be saying it, I personally have never seen it in the performances. I just don't see much romantic chemistry between Steve and Bucky (though that they love each other, absolutely). But to each their own!

[bmoore4026]

Well, my ma and I just came back from watching it.  She loved it, I loved it.  4 stars.

She was super impressed by Robert Downey, jr and Elizabeth Olsen; I loved Tom Holland as Spider-Man, he was so adorable.

Yes, the real "love story" was between Steve and Bucky, though I think the love between them is a Sam/Frodo kind of love - a beautiful friendship.  So, yeah, we probably won't be seeing them rubbing their sticks together like really and truly woodsmen, but sleeping the in same room in separate beds doesn't seem as unlikely.

I like movie Sharon Carter better than comic book Sharon Carter, but the kiss between her and Steve felt like a Big Lipped Alligator Moment than a moment of true romance.  She did make a pretty good girl Friday/government "liason", though.

The weakest parts of the movie was the bit with Alfre Woodward and her dead son we never saw and everything with Zemo.  "Zee Avengurs keeled my fam'ly, zo I weel treek them into keeling each other. MWAHH HA HA HA!!!"

Only way Zemo's punishment could have been perfect is if Martin Freeman said "For your viewing enjoyment, we are going to have Clark Gregg recite monologues from Alan Alda movies.  Better learn to enjoy them 'cause it's the only entertainment you're getting", and then he runs out the door.

I also didn't like that the five other Winter Soldiers got killed off.  Stupid Zemo.

I do hope one of these upcoming MCU movies has General Ross dying horribly.  I sure as hell don't want to see him as Red Hulk.

And the best part about this movie:

Spoiler

Steve Rogers isn't a fucking sleeper agent for Hydra.  I hate the people who write for Marvel Comics, I really do.  Let me be in charge and I'll hand out pink slips as frequently as the Queen of Hearts screamed "Off with their heads."  Oh, a man can dream.

Edited May 27, 2016 by bmoore4026

[Grace19]

On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 8:51 PM, Danny Franks said:

Just seen it, finally. And all I can really say is, I'll call this my latest lesson in not believing hype.

What a muddled, shallow, empty mess of a movie. Lots of cool little bits, some nice scenes, but completely bungled, from a narrative point of view. It never felt like its own movie, written as a complete piece that was worth paying money to see. It felt like someone just decided they wanted the Avengers to fight each other, and then someone else realised that would work quite well for the next Avengers movie. So they did it.

Oh, and they also felt they had to introduce new characters, and throw almost everyone into the mix, to the extent that no one, not even Cap himself, got enough focus to leave me satisfied. Despite what reviews said, this did not feel like a Captain America movie, and Bucky was not a co-lead. Hell, he wasn't even a character. He was a macguffin that was used to make everyone fall out. Might as well have just had a photo of him on the desk next to the Sokovia Accords.

What a waste of a character who could bring so much moral complexity and richness to a story. Instead of looking at his guilt and how he deals with all the things he's done, it boiled down to a couple of lines approximating regret, in between all the fighting. Sigh. Predictable, and immensely disappointing. Oh, and then they put him back on ice at the end because they didn't have time to actually address anything that Bucky's character requires, and clearly have no intention of doing so. 'Thanks for serving the plot, Bucky, now back in the freezer with you.'

As I said, there were lots of cool bits. Bucky making his escape on the motorbike, Spider-Man, Ant-Man becoming Giant-Man. But most of it could, and in my view should have been sacrificed in favour of actually nailing down an emotionally satisfying story to tell for Captain America, Bucky and the other characters involved (which should have been a lot less than actually appeared). Like I say, this never felt like a movie in its own right, just a vehicle to set up future movies. And that's not something I want to be spending my money on.

And hell, who knows, maybe if they'd cut out half the stuff that didn't need to be in the movie, they could have actually earned the Steve/Sharon kiss instead of it just being 'two attractive people have three scenes together, so of course they kiss'. They could have used Natasha's conflicted feelings more, and not had her simply disappear into thin air. They could have made Martin Freeman and Daniel Bruhl do some work, instead of being paint-by-numbers characters who honestly didn't need to be there. Hell, they could even have explored the idea of doing a little harm to do a lot of good, and the idea of control by committee, instead of just vaguely waving at them then having more fight scenes.

I will just say this, to people upset that Steve chose Bucky over Tony. No, he didn't. He chose right over wrong. Bucky did not do anything to Howard and Maria. He had no control over anything he did, and therefore should not be punished. That is patently unjust and unfair, and Steve Rogers recognises that. As usual, he was doing what was right. Does anyone here think that Steve would have let Tony kill a random unknown who had been mind controlled to kill Howard? I don't. Steve is better than that.

In get why you are disappointed, the writers not showing us more of Steve's motivations is one of the two criticisms I have about the movie. The thing is that as a movie judged on its own merits, it’s a great movie. Even though the movie was crowded every character had an opportunity to shine, Steve, Tony, Bucky, Sam, Antman, Black Panther, even Sharon Carter. The villain was an everyday kind of guy that I felt sorry for in the end and he actually achieved what he set out to do. More than any of this, the movie avoided the cliché of having the heroes unite to fight a common threat but rather made the fight personal.

As a movie it as great but for fans of Captain America that wanted a movie about Cap and his friends tracking down Bucky it might be a disappointment. From a business point of view, Marvel did the smart thing. They were able to get people hyped for the next Spiderman and Black Panther movies, even though people were tired of the former and knew almost nothing about the later, last week or so, BLACKPANTHERSOLIT trended on twitter.

As a Cap and Bucky fan (now Black Panther's too), I was a bit let down, but I enjoyed the movie and am glad Black Panther was included. I just wish they could have given us a couple of minutes where Steve reflects more on his thoughts, Bucky voices out how he was feeling about being an assassin for hydra and maybe few flashbacks to their time in Brooklyn and Peggy. Let's hope we get some of this in Infinity wars.

[Grace19]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 0:42 AM, Kromm said:

As for Cap himself?  I'm a fan of an interpretation of him without any romantic partner at all. It never serves his character that well, no matter who it is.

Yes, even as a stucky shipper, I agree with this, I prefer Cap when he dose not have a romantic interest. its good that some people want representation, there's no harm in that but I don't think its right to turn on Marvel because they didn't make Cap bisexual (seriously this is a thing too, its not just straight or gay). But also its not respectful to term the people that want this as stupid/crazy as I have seen some people do else where. This is not a new thing, some times people reject canon love interest, happens in every fandom, Arrow, The flash, Star trek, xmen etc. The only different thing here is that this ship is not straight and I don't like that people sometimes treat some of its shippers with scorn. The studios and writers should write what they are motivated to write and not pander to anyone, they just have the do it in an organic way. 
 

[STOPSHOUTING]

22 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Is that a stereotype, though?  We don't see it on screen.  Fic writers take it there (often when there really isn't much subtext other than two attractive guys), but I think the explosion of fic for such a wide variety of pairings is partly because we never see it on screen... it never becomes "canon", so the fic is a response for fans to fill the void.  

In the MCU there is a lot of support for Steve/Tony and Steve/Sam, which I certainly get the appeal for both, but I don't see anything in the text or the performances that would lead me to think of their relationships that way, for me those are simply close male friendships.  And I didn't start seeing anything in Steve and Bucky until Winter Soldier, but Civil War just made if jump off the screen at me.  

I don't think it's a stereotype that guys, or gals, start out as close friends and then fall in love -- the way it is with opposite sex friendships -- but it's definitely a stereotype that IF, particularly, two guys are close friends that the only explanation for that is that they're secretly gay, or that people may interpret their relationship that way so you better make sure they're not too close, which is pretty much as annoying as any of the other you-can't-be-close-friends-without-wanting-to-bonk notions, coupled with a side dish of gay panic, which makes it not only irksome, but gross.

Again I, personally, have no issue with those who interpret Cap and Bucky's relationship romantically. I don't, personally, see it, as it's been played onscreen by those actors, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. The thing I'd hate to see is a backlash to that, that goes: 'Hey, we gotta have less male friendships because everyone is saying they're gay just because they care what happens to each other.'

For the record, I'm also glad they're not hooking Colby Smolders (sp?) Agent Whatshername up with an Avenger just because girl parts + boy parts = love is also a lame stereotype and, frankly, not what these movies do well anyway.

Which leads me to reiterate my own, perhaps unpopular, opinion that shipping MCU characters seems especially pointless as even the overt romantic relationships they've shown (Pepper and Tony; Thor and Jane; etc.) have been lackluster in the extreme, to the point they're often the worst part of the films, so my guess is that even if the shippers got what they wanted here, they'd be super disappointed.

Edited May 26, 2016 by STOPSHOUTING

[AES13]

I agree with you for the most part, @STOPSHOUTING, but I thought they did a great job with Pepper and Tony, showing the development of their relationship in a mostly realistic and enjoyable way.  No question, the Thor/Jane relationship was a snore-fest, I think primarily due to the fact they fell in love at first sight and that was it.  It doesn't help that they generally forego rounding out their female characters so I have no real impression of Jane beyond absent minded scientist.

Ultimately, I think if they're going to make a romantic relationship part of the plot, they need to devote the time and character development to make it plausible and entertaining.  Otherwise, why bother?  Poorly done romances irritate the ones who like romance, and just annoy those who don't.

[benteen]

I thought Tony and Pepper had great chemistry together too.

[NoWillToResist]

2 hours ago, AES13 said:

 

 Poorly done romances irritate the ones who like romance, and just annoy those who don't.

I need this on a t-shirt. So accurate and simply put.

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, NoWillToResist said:

2 hours ago, AES13 said:

 

 Poorly done romances irritate the ones who like romance, and just annoy those who don't.

I need this on a t-shirt. So accurate and simply put.

Yeah, me too.  I think that's why I usually gravitate towards pairings that seem to evolve naturally over time out of the plot, rather than relationships specifically created for "romance purposes".  

[Grace19]

18 hours ago, AES13 said:

I agree with you for the most part, @STOPSHOUTING, but I thought they did a great job with Pepper and Tony, showing the development of their relationship in a mostly realistic and enjoyable way.  No question, the Thor/Jane relationship was a snore-fest, I think primarily due to the fact they fell in love at first sight and that was it.  It doesn't help that they generally forego rounding out their female characters so I have no real impression of Jane beyond absent minded scientist.

Ultimately, I think if they're going to make a romantic relationship part of the plot, they need to devote the time and character development to make it plausible and entertaining.  Otherwise, why bother?  Poorly done romances irritate the ones who like romance, and just annoy those who don't.

Tony/Pepper are great, good  chemistry, well written, I love them. I hope they do Natasha/Bucky some day.

15 hours ago, NoWillToResist said:

I need this on a t-shirt. So accurate and simply put.

I need the t-shirt too. 
 

[Bruinsfan]

Yep, I thought the relationship between Tony and Pepper progressed organically and nicely across four movies before the last two cast it aside. I'll also give credit for Marvel doing a good job with Steve and Peggy, though it's perhaps easier to do right by a love story that's tragically cut short by circumstances. The rest of their attempts have ranged from meh (Scott Lang & Hope Pym, Thor & Jane Foster) to poorly set up (Steve & Sharon, Hawkeye & Mrs. Hawkeye) to awful and actively detracting from the movie it's featured in (Natasha & Bruce).

[stealinghome]

Steve/Peggy is by far the best romance the MCU has done. Primarily because Peggy is easily the best love interest character the franchise has developed--and I don't mean because she's a badass (though she is), but because the people behind CA:TFA put a lot of working into making her a full, fleshed-out character. She feels just as dynamic, 3d, and real as Steve, the film's main hero. There's a reason Peggy got the Agent Carter one-shot and TV show. It also really helps that Hayley Atwell is complete and utter DYNAMITE in the role.

Pepper/Tony have good chemistry and I bought them as a couple in Iron Man and The Avengers, but I can never quite get over how shitty Tony was to her in Iron Man 2, and I think the beginning of Iron Man 3 does a good job of showing why they would struggle as a long-term couple. Pepper is ultimately too adult to stay with someone who just refuses to get their shit together, or even TRY to get their shit together.

I like Jane/Thor, but I recognize that I'm in the minority. I thought they were really sweet and Portman and Hemsworth had decent chemistry, but I would agree that the writing for the couple sucked in The Dark World. Thor was a decent enough foundation, but The Dark World screwed the pooch.

I'm pretty meh on everyone else, though I don't hate Natasha/Bruce as much as many do. imo they had some potential in theory that, like with Jane/Thor, AoU mishandled in reality.

[Jazzy24]

Someone help me out but isn't Clint's family non existent like no one but the Avengers knows he has one? So Clint can go back to his family even if he's wanted because as far as the government knows he doesn't have one right? 

And is it common knowledge that Scott has a daughter? 

[scriggle]

5 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

Someone help me out but isn't Clint's family non existent like no one but the Avengers knows he has one? So Clint can go back to his family even if he's wanted because as far as the government knows he doesn't have one right? 

And is it common knowledge that Scott has a daughter? 

Except Tony mentioned Clint's family when he was talking to him in the raft prison so now Thunderbolt Ross knows too.

I have no idea about Scott though.

[Jazzy24]

26 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Except Tony mentioned Clint's family when he was talking to him in the raft prison so now Thunderbolt Ross knows too.

I have no idea about Scott though.

Oh but they don't know where this family is and I'm sure Fury and Clint took extra precautions to make sure no one ever does. Plus I don't think Tony would ever put a target on Clint's family like that. 

[Morrigan2575]

47 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

Someone help me out but isn't Clint's family non existent like no one but the Avengers knows he has one? So Clint can go back to his family even if he's wanted because as far as the government knows he doesn't have one right? 

And is it common knowledge that Scott has a daughter? 

I don't think it's Common knowledge but probably very easy to find out.  I would imagine it shows up in quite a few legal records as well as any newspaper articles that covered his trial.

I know Clint's home is off the record and, that he kept his personal life a secret from everyone except Nat and Fury. However,  that doesn't mean he could go back.  People/Government would look for him. He'd essentially have to stay hidden on the farm, or totally change his appearance.  He wouldn't have any issues staying off the grid but he'd still be constantly looking over his shoulder.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Grumpymonkey]

5 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Steve/Peggy is by far the best romance the MCU has done. Primarily because Peggy is easily the best love interest character the franchise has developed--and I don't mean because she's a badass (though she is), but because the people behind CA:TFA put a lot of working into making her a full, fleshed-out character. She feels just as dynamic, 3d, and real as Steve, the film's main hero. There's a reason Peggy got the Agent Carter one-shot and TV show. It also really helps that Hayley Atwell is complete and utter DYNAMITE in the role.

 

I have to agree.  When I think of romances in MCU this is the only one that even rates to me and I do think it has to do completely with how well crafted/acted the character of Peggy was and how (hate to use this word) organic the pairing came about.

On 5/25/2016 at 10:37 AM, STOPSHOUTING said:

I'm glad you got that but even as someone not averse to the idea, I never got even a hint of that from the Cap-Bucky relationship through the three films. I saw them as friends close enough to be brothers. Nothing more. 

 

Same here and I love their friendship. For me in the in these movies the main "love" story, has been a familial one if that makes sense. Sometimes I think movies focus too much on romantic love and love between family and friends can be lost in the mix when it can be just as good/compelling, so I like their friendship being a focal point throughout.

[benteen]

You're right, stealinghome.  Steve and Peggy is definitely the best Marvel romance, followed strongly by Tony and Pepper.

[Wynterwolf]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

 

You're right, stealinghome.  Steve and Peggy is definitely the best Marvel romance, followed strongly by Tony and Pepper.

 

I adore Steve and Peggy's relationship and their friendship obviously transcended decades apart, but I never found it particularly romantic on Steve's part. Maybe that's partly why I was open to seeing Steve's character romantically with others.  I enjoy Sharon's character too (and I understand the comic relevance), and I think they've used her character extremely well, but again... I don't see much passion for her from Steve.  All of Steve's passion appears focused elsewhere to me.  

And I think Tony and Pepper is the most successfully integrated romance they've had, definitely.  And it was even a strong plot point in this movie with the effects of Pepper's absence, but it will be interesting to see if they can somehow get her back into the ongoing storyline as something other than a crutch for Tony.  

Classic blueprint for how NOT to do a "romance" is Nat and Banner.  Ugh.  

[benteen]

18 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I adore Steve and Peggy's relationship and their friendship obviously transcended decades apart, but I never found it particularly romantic on Steve's part. Maybe that's partly why I was open to seeing Steve's character romantically with others.  I enjoy Sharon's character too (and I understand the comic relevance), and I think they've used her character extremely well, but again... I don't see much passion for her from Steve.  All of Steve's passion appears focused elsewhere to me.  

And I think Tony and Pepper is the most successfully integrated romance they've had, definitely.  And it was even a strong plot point in this movie with the effects of Pepper's absence, but it will be interesting to see if they can somehow get her back into the ongoing storyline as something other than a crutch for Tony.  

Classic blueprint for how NOT to do a "romance" is Nat and Banner.  Ugh.  

I think one of the things I liked too about Tony and Pepper is that unlike the first three Spider-Man movies, the endgame of the Iron Man movies didn't revolve around Tony saving her.  Well, the last one did but even there, in the end, Pepper is the one who saves herself.  I liked the Raimi movies (yes, yes, even the very flawed third one) but I hated the fact that every fight at the end came down to Peter having to rescue Mary Jane.

[GHScorpiosRule]

One thing I noticed in this movie was the lack of an accent on Wanda's part. Or, it kept slipping. It wasn't as strong as it was in Age of Ultron. I thought maybe I was remembering wrong, that her accent was very light, but nope. Watched Age of Ultron last night, and the accent was there. I found the lack of it, or the slipping of it, distracting, because I remember cocking my head to listen for it during her scenes.

[scriggle]

On 5/25/2016 at 7:57 PM, stealinghome said:

Yeah, I was going to say, I see the "there is a stereotype that two people of the same gender can't be close friends without it being gay, therefore they should be straight!" justification a lot, but is that actually a stereotype? Or is it a stereotype that people have made up to argue against taking same-sex friendships romantic? Because I feel like you could probably count on one hand the number of major pop culture instances of close same-sex friendships evolving into romance.

I can see where the text of CA:TWS and CA:CW would make people think Steve/Bucky, but while the text might be saying it, I personally have never seen it in the performances. I just don't see much romantic chemistry between Steve and Bucky (though that they love each other, absolutely). But to each their own!

I would say you wouldn't use more than one maybe two fingers.

Given the same text of all 3 Cap movies, if Bucky was Becky, there damn well would've been a romance.

[Swansong]

Quote

Given the same text of all 3 Cap movies, if Bucky was Becky, there damn well would've been a romance.

I don't see their love as particularly romantic, but I have to agree. I've been actually relieved that they didn't develop Clint and Natasha or Steve and Natasha into romantic relationships because 9/10 that level of commitment to one another would be a precursor for the inevitable romantic hook-up.

[scriggle]

17 minutes ago, Swansong said:

I don't see their love as particularly romantic, but I have to agree. I've been actually relieved that they didn't develop Clint and Natasha or Steve and Natasha into romantic relationships because 9/10 that level of commitment to one another would be a precursor for the inevitable romantic hook-up.

I'd've preferred Nat/Clint to the Nat/Bruce we got in AoU. But really I just want Nat to be as kick-ass as she's always been.

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

On 5/25/2016 at 4:57 PM, stealinghome said:

Because I feel like you could probably count on one hand the number of major pop culture instances of close same-sex friendships evolving into romance.

I would say you wouldn't use more than one maybe two fingers.

I'm actually hard pressed to think of any male-male examples... what am I missing? 

[scriggle]

4 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm actually hard pressed to think of any male-male examples... what am I missing? 

The closest I can think of is a small indie film, All Over the Guy, and even that is a bit of a stretch.  I certainly can't think of any mainstream films where a same sex friendships evolves into a romance.

[Grace19]

2 hours ago, scriggle said:

if Bucky was Becky, there damn well would've been a romance.

I laughed at this, Bucky (Becky with the good hair...). Anyways, you are right, there probably would have been a romance.
 

[Grace19]

Steve/Peggy was good, but IMHO Tony/Pepper was better. Steve/Peggy had romantic chemistry, what gave them an advantage in the romantic department was the star-crossed lovers situation, it made us feel for them, but when I try to think about them as a couple there is no stand outs. They met, had a little discussion in a cab, Steve gets the serum, saves Bucky and next we see them have any meaningful conversation together was about Bucky's death. we did not really spend time together with them. What really saved this pairing was that both had chemistry and Peggy's actor is a good actor with strong screen presence that cannot be overlooked even when she had little screen time.

Tony/Pepper on the other hand, started small and we see their relationship develop on screen, we see them date, fight and make up. No matter how immature Tony acted sometimes I see them as everyday couple with problems, their relationship is not over the top and I buy them as a couple. I hope the writers fix  their relationship in infinity wars.

I was a little into Clint/Natasha till Joss ruined it in Avengers 2, I would have bought them as a couple. I must confess that I no longer care about Clint, Joss ruined him for me in that movie, I laughed out loud when he said to T'Challa, "I am Clint" and he replied, "I don't care".

I watched the first Avengers movie the other day and realized that Joss must have planned Natasha/Bruce from the beginning. If you look at some of their interactions in that movie now you might see little seeds of their future romance, its just that the set up in the second Avengers was bad.

Thor/Jane, meh.

Lets hope they do a better job in Spider man and Black Panther. 
 

[Swansong]

Quote

I'd've preferred Nat/Clint to the Nat/Bruce we got in AoU.

They probably would have made a more likely match, but I'm still glad they resisted the urge to go there.  Now if only they'd handled Nat/Bruce better since they didn't resist the urge to go there.

[Bruinsfan]

7 hours ago, scriggle said:

The closest I can think of is a small indie film, All Over the Guy, and even that is a bit of a stretch.  I certainly can't think of any mainstream films where a same sex friendships evolves into a romance.

In that the guys started out on a (disastrous) blind date, and were somewhat flirtatious all through the subsequent getting-to-know-each-other period. There was no friendship before the romance developed. (Also, Eli was so smugly superior at the wedding that when Tom lost his temper in the kitchen I was silently urging him to slam the door and never look back.)

I suppose Brokeback Mountain technically featured a friendship before it veered into a love story, but there was zero mystery about what direction that relationship was headed right from the start. Other than that I'm drawing a blank, and the catalog of gay romance movies I've seen is not small.

[Perfect Xero]

I think Steve/Peggy is only as good as it is because Hayley Atwell as Peggy just has amazing chemistry with almost every character they stick her in a scene with. Steve, Jarvis, Howard, Souza, Thompson, Dottie, Angie, random extra, people she should have chemistry with, people she shouldn't have chemistry with. You could sell her with almost anyone as a love story and people would buy it. It also benefits from the fact that they never had to maintain them as an established couple across multiple movies the way they've had to with Tony/Pepper or Thor/Jane.

I also don't think Thor/Jane is bad, it certainly doesn't take away from those movies for me (and I like the little moment in AoU where Thor and Tony are fighting over whose partner is more accomplished in their field), but at the same time I have no attachment to it, and if they're over in Thor 3 and he's moved on to another love interest, that'll be okay with me.

[Wynterwolf]

Which kinda gets us back to the fundamental problem of a separate 'romance subplot', one party generally (**cough*the girl*cough**) has very little to do with the main storyline so it's always an impossible struggle to keep them relevant.  But if both parties are attached to the main storyline individually, that issue is eliminated.  

I actually laughed when Steve and Nat were having one of their 'dating' conversations and Steve said something about it being hard to find anyone with 'shared life experience'.  Because there is literally only one other character that Steve has shared life experiences with, both from before and after the serum.  

[JustaPerson]

Surfing the web and found this. Somehow I feel like this sums up much of the movie pretty well.

ETA: As someone who really fking loves Steve/Peggy...

Edited May 29, 2016 by JustaPerson

[romantic idiot]

13 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I'm actually hard pressed to think of any male-male examples... what am I missing? 

Penthouse letters? Fan fiction?

[VCRTracking]

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Thor/Jane, meh

I can see them just having just a strictly sexual fling that lasts the three days he was first on Earth,(I mean they're attractive people). The problem is most movies(especially PG rated ones) can't be about flings. They always have to have romances that will last until both people die or are tragically cut short. It always has to be "true love" but audiences need more if they want to believe that. The Thor movie didn't make me believe the ending where Jane would be finding a way for Thor to come back to Earth without the Bifrost. However, nobody would blame Jane if she just "hit and quit" Thor!

Edited May 29, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

On 5/29/2016 at 10:44 AM, VCRTracking said:

The problem is most movies(especially PG rated ones) can't be about flings.

Yes!  And it's so limiting to good characterization and story telling to have only one kind of romantic relationship treated as being the right one.

I have to say though, I went to see it again today and I really do love how they framed Steve being thrown off by hearing Bucky's name in the beginning, in the same way they framed Tony being thrown off by seeing Pepper's.

And that final fight scene gets more brilliant every time I see it.  There is so much characterization for all three characters in every move of that fight.  

Edited May 31, 2016 by Wynterwolf
obviously not an English major

[spaulding]

I'm not invested in the Avengers, but I do like this movie a lot. 

Wow, 1980s RDJ was so pretty.

Spiderman and Black Panther are great, so I'm excited about their solo movies.

Cap and Sharon are boring.  I don't care enough about a potential love story between them.  I do hate that Peggy's death was used as a prop to move forward this romance.

I can't help but like Baron Zemo. 

I can understand that this movie is about the complex ideologies that are represented by Tony and Cap.  But as the movie progressed, I had forgotten them, and my reaction is that this movie was all about Cap trying to save Bucky.  I like Barnes in Cap 1.  In this movie, I like his action scenes.  If he talked or emoted, it was lost on me.  I can only remember that he asked Falcon to move the car seat.  The most compelling thing about him is whether he got to eat his plums.

I'm not invested in Cap or Bucky, so I was irritated that all the trouble in this movie is because of Cap's love for his precious Bucky. 

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They completely sold out the Iron Man character to prop up Cap and Panther, then they didn't even deal with the gravity of it. They sold out the entire premise the movie was built around (different ideologies where no one is "wrong") in order to make Cap justified in beating Tony down at the end. Then they didn't even stick to it so they could set up the team getting back together in Infinity War. And I feel like I ate crazy flakes for breakfast because no one else seems to think it's a big deal that Tony Stark tried to f'n murder a guy because he was angry.

That was my gut reaction.  Tony's an ass and always thinks that he's right.  But he also gets a lot of criticism too, and many of his judgement calls have been terrible.  I don't doubt that Tony has a lot of guilt and grief over his terrible decisions.  Here, Tony's one of Cap's antagonists who is portrayed as deeply, deeply flawed. 

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And, again, it was cheap and sold out the entire premise that they built the movie around about an ideological conflict where neither side is right or wrong, all for the sake of giving Steve an excuse to be morally justified to beat the shit out of Tony at the end of the movie.

In the end, Cap gets to walk away with his precious Bucky while Tony lays there in his grief.  Nobody's there for him.  No matter how much of an ass Tony is, he doesn't deserve that.

Where's the justice for the Starks?  Why doesn't Cap go find the Hydra people who are responsible for their murders?  (I assume that Tony will be motivated.)  Those same people manipulated Bucky.  Or will Cap be too busy fawning over his frozen body?

I wasn't moved by Cap's letter to Tony.  Cap was sorry that he didn't tell Tony about his parents, but Cap didn't mention anything about his--and Bucky's--condolences for them.  And it certainly wasn't implied. No condolences for Tony's loss and no condolences for their deaths.  No mention about how Tony's father was meaningful to Cap, e.g., how Tony's father was searching for Cap at the end of Cap 1.

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Well, yeah. That's because Steve is written as the hero of the movie so he gets to act like a hero should act. Tony is treated as the villain of the piece, he has them outclassed in terms of firepower and is out for blood, so he pushes them to their limit before the hero triumphs dramatically at the end while managing to hold on to his morals by not stooping down to the villain's level and killing them.

I wouldn't say that Tony is the villain but that Steve is treated as the hero.  Tony is the antagonist who furthers and props Captain America's story of heroism.  <eyeroll>

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I see a lot of places talking about how the difference between Steve and Tony with the Accords is that Steve accepts responsibility  for the Avengers actions and Tony just wants to put it in others hands, but that doesn't make sense to me. When has Steve actually accepted responsibility for what they have done. Telling Wanda that what happened in Lagos is on him isn't taking responsibility, taking responsibility is accepting the consequences for your actions, like for instance be willing to accept what the people and countries you have hurt are trying to tell you and maybe being open to some kind of dialog with them, ie an international accord. Did Steve even talk to the Nigerian or Wakandan governments after what happened to apologize and see what they needed from the Avengers for what happened?  Did he help with Sokovia or Washington after what happened? What about the void that SHIELDs disintegration left? Has he ever faced any of the consequences the world has faced since all of this Avenger stuff started? Because it seems to me that Tony has always been a little better on the dealing the actual repercussions of what happens in the Avengers world and therefore has never been the one who doesn't take responisbilty.

I agree.  Steve didn't do anything to mitigate what happened in Lagos.  He didn't like that Wanda was under house arrest.  OK, so what should have happened, Steve?  Let her free while many people are afraid of the Avengers?  I'm not offering a solution or an opinion of Wanda's house arrest.  It's just an example of how Captain America doesn't take any responsibility for the consequences in Lagos.  In this case, he doesn't even offer a solution.

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But did he at least attempt to talk to the governments to apologize?  Natasha apologized to T'Chacka at the signing of the Accords but I wouldn't have expected her to do it before Steve since he's the leader of the team.

Yup, his team, his responsibility. 

From Cap 2, I believe that Steve was going to look for Bucky.  Here, Steve wanted to be the one to bring him in.  Steve doesn't trust the government and the Accords.  What was he going to do with Bucky when he caught him?  Hand him over to people who were going to throw him in a hole without any due process?  When this entire movie was about Justice For Bucky?

When Bucky decided to re-freeze himself, he said that he chooses freely.  And if Bucky decided not to get frozen again?  What do you do, Steve?  The dude is still dangerous, and Zemo was able to reboot him.  I still can't believe that Steve took a vulnerable Bucky to find Zemo.

Before this movie, I was meh about Cap.  Now, I find him insufferable.

Regardless of the Accords, none of these superheroes is going to follow them.  This entire movie was about how these superheroes are never going to follow the Accords.

Edited May 31, 2016 by spaulding

[JessePinkman]

I wonder if the overwhelming love for Peggy/Steve is because they never really were. Their romance gets to live in amber for all eternity as this very chaste idyllic idea of a relationship. They never got to know each other as romantic partners so you can apply whatever wish fulfillment to their relationship that you want. They shared one kiss, never consummated their flirtation, who knows what they could have been when they were barely anything?

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, spaulding said:

From Cap 2, I believe that Steve was going to look for Bucky.  Here, Steve wanted to be the one to bring him in.  Steve doesn't trust the government and the Accords.  What was he going to do with Bucky when he caught him?  Hand him over to people who were going to throw him in a hole without any due process?  When this entire movie was about Justice For Bucky?

Out of interest - what IS due process for suspected (let alone, known) terrorists these days?

There must be a fair few who wish they had been offered what was due to happen to Bucky (psychological support etc; just no lawyer)

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Out of interest - what IS due process for suspected (let alone, known) terrorists these days?

I think it would depend on which country/entity won jurisdiction.  But no legal system is equipped to account for 'powered' beings, so I think looking for a RL equivalence to that question is moot, any legalities would have to be invented.  

But that was part of what the lure was for Steve to bring him in, the idea that they wouldn't just kill him.  I don't think Steve was thinking much beyond that.  

[stealinghome]

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In the end, Cap gets to walk away with his precious Bucky while Tony lays there in his grief.  Nobody's there for him.  No matter how much of an ass Tony is, he doesn't deserve that.

Well...maybe if Tony hadn't alienated everyone who might have been there for him, he wouldn't have been alone at the end of the movie? He made the bed, it's his fault if he's lying alone in it.

Though I would hardly classify Tony as alone, tbh. He's still got Rhodey--much more than Steve has Bucky by the movie's end, actually, now that I think about it. Tony definitely won the battle of the best friends.

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From Cap 2, I believe that Steve was going to look for Bucky.  Here, Steve wanted to be the one to bring him in.  Steve doesn't trust the government and the Accords.  What was he going to do with Bucky when he caught him?  Hand him over to people who were going to throw him in a hole without any due process?  When this entire movie was about Justice For Bucky?

I don't think Steve objected to getting Bucky official help, though; what he objected to was the murder of a man who was innocent of the crime that he had apparently already been sentenced to death for.

In terms of Steve's thought process, I really think it depends on what stage of the movie we're talking. At the start, Steve said that he wanted to bring Bucky in, so he was clearly at least somewhat fine with placing Bucky in hands more equipped to deal with Bucky's psychological damage than his own (and I think we see that borne out once Bucky is taken into custody; he didn't throw a shit fit at the idea of Bucky talking to a psychologist, he was watching along with everyone else). What Steve objected to, and intervened to stop, was the immediate kill order on Bucky. Then, after Zemo triggered Bucky and Steve and Sam caught him, the priority shifted to stopping the Russian supersoldier assassins. I think at that point, Steve figured that they could work out what to do with Bucky after they prevented the super-powered kill squad from being unleashed on the world. (Though it's also true that by then, the evidence that the UN bombing was Zemo and not Bucky had been assembled, so presumably Bucky's situation would have been less "shoot on sight" precarious and Steve would have had less reservations about bringing him in officially.)

[Wynterwolf]

21 hours ago, spaulding said:

Regardless of the Accords, none of these superheroes is going to follow them.  This entire movie was about how these superheroes are never going to follow the Accords.

I think this is true, but it occurred to me... I think T'Challa is going to be uniquely qualified to figure out a workable compromise.  He intimately understands all sides of the question (the sovereignty of countries, the fact that the Avengers are people first, not tools/weapons, and the responsibility to protect), and because it was his father that was spearheading the Accords, that also puts an emotional responsibility on him to see his father's legacy become something worthy and important... as if I wasn't ridiculously excited for the Black Panther movie already.  

[piequinn35]

Loved this movie, actually it's a great movie that I would watch many times.

Spiderman and Antman were funny.

and loved this line:

"You cant beat him hand to hand"-friday