Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Wynterwolf]

32 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

If the world knew Tony created Ultron, I don't think they'd look at Vision, an android he also created and is even more powerful and think "Yeah, THIS one's okay."

LOLOL.  But yeah seriously though... Tony wasn't even fully on TeamIronman at the end either, so everyone either defected or hedged. Which I don't take as TeamCap being "right", just that The Accords, as enforced, created more problems/issues than they solved.  And the fact that a deeply flawed political document was ratified in the current world climate, doesn't seem at all improbable to me. And Tony was basically the voice of The Avengers in the negotiations, so they only paid attention to what he told them.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Wynterwolf
clarity

[stealinghome]

Quote

To be fair, it's not like the UN approached the team to work together to come up with a solution; they presented a 'done deal' document with no input or consultation with the affected group, and told them to, essentially, sign it or else.

This x 100000000000. My sense was that the entire team would have been open to working jointly with the UN to come up with a resolution that everyone could live with. But "working jointly" is pretty much the opposite of what happened.

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

And when Tony says "so was I" about being Steve's friend that wasn't how I saw their interactions on screen. They have a weirdly intense relationship but I wouldn't call it friendship

Agreed.  I'm not sure what I'd call their relationship but it's not friendship.  Tony's only real friends are Rhodey, Pepper, and Bruce.  Steve has Sam, Natasha, and Bucky (sort of).  I think the two of them respect each other but they are just so different in how they view the world that they usually end up arguing.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Sweet Tee

[Grace19]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 3:29 AM, SnoGirl said:

Echoing everyone else who wished they had spent a little more time on Steve, I wish there had been one new flashback of Steve, Bucky, Howard, and Peggy from the War. I think it would have connected Bucky to Tony a bit more too (although having two different Howards might have thrown people) and reminded people of the friendship. Not everyone marathons movies before sequels (I did, can't help myself).

That said, I left the theater wanting more, wishing to see smaller beat moments. Like Steve telling Bucky about Peggy's death or even Bucky telling Steve he was sorry about Peggy(that one I was really surprised they didn't include).

I totally agree. Thats one of my disappointments. They never spent much time on Steve's motivations, yes the movie was centered around him, but they didn't put much focus on his motivation. A little flashback to Peggy and Bucky would have helped.
 

[Grace19]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 3:19 PM, Wynterwolf said:

Fury being gone, I think is a real key... he was always able to bridge the gap between the Powered and the NonPowered, Coulson too... without either of their input (even just a word to someone here or there), the Avengers have lost the real person perspective, and I think that's where so many of the misunderstandings started.

ETA:  That and differing levels of priority:  Cap's first priority is Stop Injustice, Tony's is Eliminate Loss.  They can't do either entirely, and that's part of what hurts both of them so much.

I may also be thinking about all this waaaay too much.

I never thought of this, but now that you mentioned it, I've come to appreciate Fury's role more.
 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 

(Which makes me also Vision doesn't go out to the nearest Banana Republic to buy those slacks and sweater but probably orders them online.)

Well he shouldn't have a problem sizing himself

[Grace19]

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 0:48 AM, Dandesun said:

Odin's Ravens... they have got to be joking. No, actually it would NOT be a more interesting movie if Cap and Tony were swinging their dicks around for Natasha to pick one over the other. That is flat out imbecilic!

And anyway, it wouldn't be believable. Steve and Bucky are in love!! There's a fucking three movie arc that shows it and it's so ridiculously obvious in Civil War that I cannot fathom someone suggesting that Steve's remotely interested in Natasha that way. I mean... really! But, hey, it's always nice to see someone attempt to reduce one of the few female characters into nothing more than a trophy to win.

It's like X-Men: First Class. That movie is a god-damn tragic love story between Charles and Erik. The entire Captain America trilogy shows us a love story, too. Yes, Steve loved Peggy. But he loves Bucky, too. And he loved Bucky first. And last. And always.

Sorry Tony.

 

7 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I didn't think I was, to be honest! I think Civil War has simmered in my head ever since I saw it and then I went back and watched First Avenger and Winter Soldier and... it's just all there. Perhaps it's not as obvious as Charles and Erik in the X-movies but then, neither Charles nor Erik were all that good at subtlety.

I guess I'm just on board the Stucky train hard-core now. It's weird because I would have been all for Bucky/Nat since I love comic!them but, at the same time, the MCU is not the 616 Marvel Universe (or whatever it is now that they've done the Secret Wars thing that wiped out all the other alternate universes? Where's the fun in that?) I mean, in the comics Bucky was gone for decades. He was just this kid from Cap's past... a tragic tale of what happens when you take 12 year olds to war (not exactly that but you get the idea) and Steve's longest running relationship was with Sharon Carter. It's pretty much the opposite in the MCU. Steve and Bucky's friendship is one of the first things we see. When Steve finds out that the 107th was killed/taken captive behind enemy lines he dropped everything to go find Bucky. And when he does rescue him... Bucky's smile... "Steve... Steve..." and then when the place is exploding and only Bucky got across the beam and was just as adamant about saving Steve. "No! Not without you!" Now, you can make a lot of arguments on friendship/brothers-in-arms and all that but if you look at the whole picture of these three movies... it's not that big a leap to take.

It gets amped up in Winter Soldier big time. I mean... just look at that movie. "That man on the bridge... I knew him..." "Even when I had nothing, I had Bucky." People, that's romantic stuff there. People telling Steve that Bucky may not be the guy to save but rather to stop and Steve already knowing he can't do that. Practically crying "Please don't make me do this" when facing Bucky on the last Insight hellicarrier. Saving Bucky when part of the exploding hellicarrier... dropping his shield and refusing to fight... "I'm with you to the end of the line." Those panicky expressions on Bucky's face the first time Steve sees him and also when Steve's refusing to fight and just lets him pound away to 'finish his mission.' And then Bucky saving Steve?

And then this one? Steve risks everything for Bucky. Everything. And at the end... with his arm sheared off Bucky still grabs at Tony to keep him from repulsor ray-ing Steve (and gets a kick in the face for his effort) and then Steve picks him up and drops the shield again. Steve would give up everything for Bucky... that's a god-damn love story.

The other thing to look at... they're both super-soldiers but Steve volunteered... Steve also chose to go into the ice at the end of First Avenger. Hell, you look back on it and you know they both ended that movie in the same way: enhanced and in the ice... but Bucky never had a choice and Civil War could be seen as Steve risking so much to allow that for Bucky. At the end? It's Bucky's choice and Steve looks like he's losing a piece of himself all over again but, at least there's hope. Bucky made this choice to protect Steve from himself because all of Hydra's shit is still inside of him. And, dudes... "I don't know that I'm worth all of this to you, Steve." Fuck my life... love story.

Look, Steve loved Peggy. No question about that. She meant the world to him... but Bucky is somehow even more. And Bucky certainly liked the ladies. Maybe these are just two straight dudes who happen to be wildly in love with each other. It happens... but as much as I wouldn't be able to buy this concept in the comics (although I did love Sam and Bucky talking about Steve after he got de-aged into young, virile Steve again because that was delightful) the fact is that Steve's relationship with Bucky in the movies is one of his prime driving forces/motivations.

So, yeah, that's apparently my dissertation on how I became a hardcore Stucky fan without even realizing. Fucking 'ships sneaking up on me in the night.

Hahaha, you are killing me here, this is too funny.

To add a little to your dissertation; " Rumlow said "Bucky" and all of a sudden I was a sixteen year old kid in Brooklyn."

Come on who is wrote this? Some of Steve's dialogue about Bucky made me side-eye the writers. Fan-fiction writers are going to have a field day with this one. lol
 

[Grace19]

19 hours ago, stealinghome said:

First, I have to say that Rhodey needs to get his head checked at the end of the film, 'cause it was obviously also hurt when he fell from the sky if he still thinks the Accords were worth it.

This is too funny.

 

19 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I really hope that in the next Avengers movie, everyone who was Team Cap is like "yeah, go save the world Team Iron Man, we're sitting it out on Asgard because we're ~retired and don't want to be ~criminals. And have fun, rest of the world, hope you get saved! And that the special UN council can meet with enough lead time to authorize the Avengers to go save the world, lest they have to sit around on their hands while aliens take over the planet waiting for the UN to give them the okay! We'll be over here getting super drunk on Asgardian beer and eating popcorn as we watch."

So true. Now I want a movie with the Avengers on Asgard.
 

[stealinghome]

they MUST go to Asgard at some point during Infinity War, right??? I actually really, really want to see that. And with two whole movies they certainly have the time.

[Jediknight]

6 hours ago, Sweet Tee said:

Agreed.  I'm not sure what I'd call their relationship but it's not friendship.  Tony's only real friends are Rhodey, Pepper, and Bruce.  Steve has Sam, Natasha, and Bucky (sort of).  I think the two of them respect each other but they are just so different in how they view the world that they usually end up arguing.

I'd say you could count Thor as one of Steve's friends.

[benteen]

21 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I mostly agree with Wanda's responsibility for Sokovia, but by the end of the movie the details of Nigeria had mostly faded from my mind--why is everyone so hot to trot to blame Wanda for the bomb? She was trying to defuse it slash get it away from the crowded square full of civilians--is the idea supposed to be that using her power to try to defuse it magnified the explosion somehow?

What happened in Nigeria was an accident although I can see how you could make a case that she's inexperienced and shouldn't be out in the field.  The idea of training wannabe superheroes or people with powers was a big thing with Registration Act in the original comic books.  It's not mentioned in the movie though.

You know, it's funny...the one time I actually bought Steve and Tony's friendship was after Steve's arrest.  When him and Tony are talking about their issues with the Accords, it was the one time I really bought them as friends.  Despite all the tension in that scene.

[Bruinsfan]

18 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

From Scott saying "Something just went inside me!" when Vision phased through him I don't think he's known to the public. If he goes on missions it would be either be secret ones and if they really need his level of power. I get that though. If the world knew Tony created Ultron, I don't think they'd look at Vision, an android he also created and is even more powerful and think "Yeah, THIS one's okay."

Technically Ultron is the one who created Vision, Tony just reprogrammed him. Yeah, I'm sure that would be much more reassuring to the public...

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just saw it again last night and still loved it.

Though, I do have to admit, that Rhodey did annoy me with his sanctmonious "You're a Criminal" to Steve when they arrested Steve, T'Challa, and Bucky. And Tony zapping Sam when Rhodey got injured. That wasn't Sam's fault. It was Vision's.  Sam was just smart enough to evade the laser beam/blast and remove himself, so that Rhodey got hit.

Still a very enjoyable movie for me.

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Just saw it again last night and still loved it.

Though, I do have to admit, that Rhodey did annoy me with his sanctmonious "You're a Criminal" to Steve when they arrested Steve, T'Challa, and Bucky. And Tony zapping Sam when Rhodey got injured. That wasn't Sam's fault. It was Vision's.  Sam was just smart enough to evade the laser beam/blast and remove himself, so that Rhodey got hit.

Still a very enjoyable movie for me.

Remember he's a Colonel, Captain Rogers got stuck on stupid in his mind

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Raja said:

Remember he's a Colonel, Captain Rogers got stuck on stupid in his mind

Yeah, well, I wonder if he'd have been so gung ho to go after Tony if Tony had decided to not sign the Accords and side with Steve. But, whatever. I'm not dwelling on the parts that annoyed me, but just basking in the parts that I loved and made me snicker and laugh. And just like last weekend, last night's fellow movie goers laughed and gasped and clapped right along with me.  I find myself constantly giving myself mental headslaps for not wanting to see the first Captain America movie because Chris annoyed me so much as Johnny Storm in the first Fantastic Four movie, and I thought he was one rote and couldn't possibly do the role any justice. I have never eaten crow so very happily. Chris is just amazing in this role and as far as I'm concerned, his IS Steve Rogers/Captain America.

Edited May 21, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Raja]

Well he did grab the old armor to stop a drunk Tony in Iron Man II. In a universe of suddenly powered vigilantes, wartime volunteers and spies he is career soldier recently going to the Avengers from being President Ellis' big stick in red white and blue armor.

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 I find myself constantly giving myself mental headslaps for not wanting to see the first Captain America movie because Chris annoyed me so much as Johnny Storm in the first Fantastic Four movie

I just went and bought the DVD and watched that last night.  I had seen it once in the theater, but was kind of meh on it (mostly because I had mentally chosen Jensen Ackles for the role and couldn't see anyone else).  But now, with the extended context of Winter Soldier and this one, it totally rocks.  And seriously, I am absolutely enraptured by the through-line story of Steve and Bucky... and yes, I lean towards Stucky, because this is literally my idea of the perfect love story, but it works just as poignantly and viscerally as a 'power of found family' story... it's just that good.  

[romantic idiot]

It is beautiful. But a part of me feels that Cap would have gone to bat for anyone in that way. 

And I do believe Cap and Tony are friends. I have quite a few that I love, but with whom I argue all the time. Doesn't make the love any less. I've thought they were friends from when Tony was getting a better look at the Helicarrier's turbines. That was the turning point for me. When Tony could have made fun of Cap not being able to identify the circuits(?) in overload position, and Cap doing his best to back up Tony. 

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

It is beautiful. But a part of me feels that Cap would have gone to bat for anyone in that way.

I think that is true too, but I don't think Steve would have had trouble stopping anyone else, even Tony, if he had to.  But the conversation Steve had with Sam in WS after he knew it was Bucky, he basically told Sam he couldn't kill him, even if it mean his own life.  I don't think anyone else fits in that category for him. 

[KatWay]

I think RDJ and Chris Evans have been selling this friendship due to their good chemistry, despite the lack of scenes to build them up. 

[Enigma X]

I believe that Tony and Cap are (still) friends. Maybe not Cap and Bucky  or Tony and Rhody (sp) type friends...but friends. There are so many scenes that a superhero action movie can show before intended audience will call it boring (annoyingly scream it actually). Personally, I like character development and would have liked to seen it but get why it was not shown. The camaraderie was enough for me to infer it.

[Dandesun]

Steve and Tony... have a relationship which is often antagonistic which is fine because it keeps the dynamic of the group interesting. They're two very strong personalities who don't see eye to eye.

And I agree with Enigma X that Steve and Tony's friendship is not at the level of Tony/Rhodey and Steve/Bucky... but what is?

As for Steve going to bat for anyone... yeah, I can see that. But there's an extra weight in regards to Bucky. There's Steve's own guilt/sorrow for not being able to save him in First Avenger to dealing with what came of that and everything Bucky has been through due to that. Then there's the fact that no one was even remotely interested in giving Bucky a chance here... legal counsel? Ha! They wanted to stick him in a hole forever... or possibly turn him to work for 'them' -- whoever the hell 'them' is at this point.

Bucky winding up where he did... at least that was his choice. The gods only know when the last time he was allowed to actually make his own damn choice was. Well, other than the plums. #LetBuckyHaveHisPlums

Steve's all about the whole 'the guy who lays on the wire so the other guy can crawl over him' dynamic and he would go to bat for just about anyone he believed in but Bucky's different. I don't know that Steve would give up everything for anyone else the way he would for Bucky.

[Lilacgirl128]

I think it is very telling that Steve talks about trusting individuals and them not letting him down so far.  But people let Tony down all the time.

If you really look at the movies, it is always institutions that betray Steve (the US government to some extant in the first movie, Shield is the second, and the UN here). However Tony has always had both the money and the power (in the the form of his company and his genius) so he can't be betrayed by institutions because he knows there is always a way around what ever they have done to you if you have money and power and the patience it takes to use them. Hence his saying we can change the Accords later, because he knows that he can get it changed by virtue of what he, himself, and the Avengers collectively, mean to the world, they just have to appease the public at this moment. I mean he kept Sam and Steve out of trouble for the first bit of their helping Bucky in Romania so there was wiggle room. The current Accords are just an over reaction to some things that have gone down, but things can eventually be calmed down and the contingemcies get worked out. Like he and Natasha point out, it is happening whether they want it or not so might as well get in and change what they can.  

While Steve gets betrayed by institutions, people are always betraying Tony, starting with Stane in the first movie. Even in this movie he gets betrayed to some extant by both Natasha and Steve.  I mean he is betrayed by Captain America! He can't even trust the worlds paragon of virtue. So it's no wonder he trusts institutions over individuals. He won't be blindsided by what institutions do to him, and he knows he can always find away around them eventually. But people, he let's people down and they let him down. I would be surprised if Tony truly trusted another individual besides Rhodey ever again (and even Rhodey betrayed him somewhat in Iron Man 2, but there were extenuating circumstances that I am sure Tony forgave).

I think Steve would have gone as far as he did for anyone he sees as family, but I think it would have been with more consideration of the consequences for anyone else. With Bucky there just is no thought, there is just nothing he wouldn't do and no one he wouldn't go through for Bucky. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Lilacgirl128
Typos

[calliope1975]

Even after Rhodey said he still believed in the Accords, didn't he then say, "I think" or something like that? To me, that read that he wasn't 100% sure that the Accords were the right thing to do. 

After seeing it twice, I still get both sides. I'm still Team Cap, but I understand the idea of oversight. I also understand that everyone has agendas and don't know who that oversight should be. I do agree with bringing back Nick Fury. You know he heard about this eyerolled and muttered, "These muthafuckers. I'm gone for one day..."

[Dandesun]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

Even after Rhodey said he still believed in the Accords, didn't he then say, "I think" or something like that? To me, that read that he wasn't 100% sure that the Accords were the right thing to do. 

After seeing it twice, I still get both sides. I'm still Team Cap, but I understand the idea of oversight. I also understand that everyone has agendas and don't know who that oversight should be. I do agree with bringing back Nick Fury. You know he heard about this eyerolled and muttered, "These muthafuckers. I'm gone for one day..."

Where the hell IS Nick Fury? Son of a bitch showed up in Avengers 2 with a Hellicarrier and former SHIELD agents for crying out loud. Can I just imagine that he hunted down "Thunderbolt" Ross and gave him the most righteous ass-kicking ever after Civil War?

That's my headcanon and I will not deviate.

[Watermelon]

On 5/20/2016 at 4:59 PM, stealinghome said:

I agree. As I've been processing, I think part of the reason I couldn't get really into the movie is that, except for Natasha, none of the people fighting were ever shown on-screen to be true friends. I would classify them as teammates-who-are-friendly, but not FRIENDS. Tony and Steve have spent the better part of three movies at each other's throats, basically everyone else has had maaaaybe two minutes of screentime together in the past, and while the movie tried hard to sell the Wanda/Vision and Sam/Rhodey friendships in limited screentime, I wasn't buying what they were selling. And then, while I thought that it worked perfectly as a character note, Natasha's ultimately working with both sides also meant that the one legitimate source of emotional conflict the movie had (Nat vs Steve and Clint) went away. So you were left with a bunch of people fighting who, if not strangers, have never seemed to LIKE each other all that much. Which is way less compelling.

So maybe this is me leaning on race, but as a black woman, I didn't find it any type of shocking or noteworthy that the 2 black military men in the Avengers would become friends. It's kind of an, "of course" thing for me.  

[Wynterwolf]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

Even after Rhodey said he still believed in the Accords, didn't he then say, "I think" or something like that? To me, that read that he wasn't 100% sure that the Accords were the right thing to do. 

Yeah, he hedged at the end.  **I, um,  may have just gotten back from 3rd viewing**

[Perfect Xero]

On 5/20/2016 at 4:27 PM, VCRTracking said:

From Scott saying "Something just went inside me!" when Vision phased through him I don't think he's known to the public. If he goes on missions it would be either be secret ones and if they really need his level of power. I get that though. If the world knew Tony created Ultron, I don't think they'd look at Vision, an android he also created and is even more powerful and think "Yeah, THIS one's okay."

(Which makes me also Vision doesn't go out to the nearest Banana Republic to buy those slacks and sweater but probably orders them online.)

Even if Vision is supposed to be non-public, I think he could have been shown waiting in the jet and monitoring in case they had a "code green" emergency pop up like Banner did in AoU.

[ainon]

On 20/05/2016 at 2:08 AM, NoWillToResist said:

Tony or Stark Enterprises? Because if he's doing good works via his company, that's a tax write off, isn't it?

To be fair, it's not like the UN approached the team to work together to come up with a solution; they presented a 'done deal' document with no input or consultation with the affected group, and told them to, essentially, sign it or else.

Cap was helping to clean up Loki's intergalactic mess in Avengers, Tony's mess in Avengers 2, Shield's Hydra mess in Cap 2, and (IMO) trying to prevent the murder of a friend in Cap 3.

That said, I do agree that the Avengers could/should use some of their super-powered selves to help with rebuilding etc.

I'm not trying to say that Cap is blameless in all this but I think his history certainly supports why he has zero trust in agencies and governments...

On the bolded part - even if it is a tax write off, Tony Stark would still need to ensure that his company is making a profit, and an incredibly massive one at that, and that his employees and stakeholders are cared for first and foremost. We're probably supposed to assume that after the downfall of SHIELD, Stark Industries is the one paying out billions for damages and lifelong support to all who were maimed. Tony also seems to be the one updating and improving everyone's tech, and presumably will continue to do so as long as he can, using his own money. What's unclear is what would happen if Tony were to die, or to become incapacitated. Would his estate be obliged to continue supporting all the Avengers? 

The way Steve Rogers was behaving, I highly doubt he would have worked together with the UN to resolve anything. He didn't believe in oversight, and apparently wasn't even willing to sit and talk about governance with his team members. Anyway, why should the UN come begging to Captain America? The UN is representing the nations of the world, the majority of whom neither know nor care who the Avengers are, and to whom a name like 'Captain America' is clearly antagonistic. The UN would just like the Avengers to let them know if they're planning to encroach into nations' capital cities to destroy buildings; Steve meanwhile is representing ... an ideal? Which was dubious to begin with because as we saw, his ideal became tied so closely to loyalty to one friend: Bucky, that it blinded him to practically anything else. 

In the context of the movie, the way I saw the "He's my friend" "So was I" exchange was a reminder of how far Steve had strayed from being a friend. Tony shouldn't have to demand to be the closest and bestest of friends to assume that he would be told that there's a possibility that his parents had been murdered. I also see that secret that Steve chose to keep from Tony and most of the Avengers as the moment that led them all down the path to that final showdown in Siberia, and the moment when Steve began to betray his own principles and started problems snowballing.  

By burying the possible truth about Starks' deaths, Steve denied justice to not just Tony Stark but to Howard Stark and Maria Stark. Steve must have heard about how Howard Stark spent time searching for him. He certainly knows that Howard never stopped talking about him. There can't have been any doubt in Steve's mind on how much Howard cared for him. Seems like a betrayal to Howard there. But it's definitely a betrayal to Tony.

If Tony had known about the murders earlier, Tony, Bruce Banner and JARVIS  could have actually researched into Hydra and the Winter Soldier program - it would have then been the Avengers who would have tracked down the Russian handler in Cleveland and it's not far-fetched to imagine the Avengers as a team would've then been able to handle the five hidden Winter Soldiers in Siberia. Natasha seems to know something too; she had some expectation that Bucky might recognize her. Would she have volunteered information if the Avengers were all on the hunt? 

We already know that Tony is currently researching the way memories work - it's safe to assume with a little bit of tweaking, Tony might have also come up with a way to overcome mind control triggers, or at the very least, helped Bucky cope with his trauma. As it was, Steve kept his silence, and ironically denied Bucky the help he could have gotten sooner.

And while Steve never told Tony, he was still out searching for Bucky for two years? Using Stark Tech, presumably? On Stark's expenses? That's pretty low, morally. And not smart. Steve never found Bucky and yet never asked for help. 

Then in this movie, after everything went pear-shaped and he realized the UN psychiatrist wasn't a real psychiatrist at all, Steve still kept quiet in the interest of keeping Bucky hidden from the world. It apparently never occurred to Steve to report that Zemo had infiltrated the UN, or to start investigations into how to capture Zemo before he reached Siberia. We know this because we saw Zemo safely taking a regular flight out of the country to go to Moscow, and once in Russia, Zemo was again travelling freely. And yet Zemo could have been stopped at any time, by any local authority - if they'd known to look for him! 

But really, Captain America was a standard movie hero, acting in noble movie hero ways, right down to the "my way is the only right way", and the admirable unshakeable loyalty to a friend, and forsaking cooperation with others because ultimately movie heroes succeed in their own terms. What I really loved here though, was that in my mind, the Russo brothers had also subverted those tropes by giving us what on the surface is a hero, all while showing how his actions are actually detrimental to others and even harming his own cause. It's not often that a summer movie really forces you think about what happens when a hero makes wrong choices, or about how the people on the ground feel about a James Bond or a Mission Impossible team or the Avengers swooping in, ostensibly to 'save the world' but in the process destroying property and racking up a collateral damage count. 

And sure, in the long run Captain America will be proven right and true in some spectacular fashion, because, well, he's Captain America. But for a while, at least, the common people here get to feel like they've done something to have some regulation in place with the Accords. For once, actual power to the people! 

[Wynterwolf]

14 hours ago, Lilacgirl128 said:

If you really look at the movies, it is always institutions that betray Steve (the US government to some extant in the first movie, Shield is the second, and the UN here). However Tony has always had both the money and the power (in the the form of his company and his genius) so he can't be betrayed by institutions because he knows there is always a way around what ever they have done to you if you have money and power and the patience it takes to use them. Hence his saying we can change the Accords later, because he knows that he can get it changed by virtue of what he, himself, and the Avengers collectively, mean to the world, they just have to appease the public at this moment. I mean he kept Sam and Steve out of trouble for the first bit of their helping Bucky in Romania so there was wiggle room. The current Accords are just an over reaction to some things that have gone down, but things can eventually be calmed down and the contingemcies get worked out. Like he and Natasha point out, it is happening whether they want it or not so might as well get in and change what they can.  

While Steve gets betrayed by institutions, people are always betraying Tony, starting with Stane in the first movie. Even in this movie he gets betrayed to some extant by both Natasha and Steve.  I mean he is betrayed by Captain America! He can't even trust the worlds paragon of virtue. So it's no wonder he trusts institutions over individuals. He won't be blindsided by what institutions do to him, and he knows he can always find away around them eventually. But people, he let's people down and they let him down. I would be surprised if Tony truly trusted another individual besides Rhodey ever again (and even Rhodey betrayed him somewhat in Iron Man 2, but there were extenuating circumstances that I am sure Tony forgave).

You make a great point here, and this is another place where Tony and Steve's perspective are almost on opposite ends of the spectrum, but I think this is also where Tony's extreme privilege (money, resources,brains), has blinded him a bit to the consequences for the others who don't share that privileged. And I think Ross was able to manipulate him because he was operating from guilt and fear, and without support from any of the others. Tony feeling isolated (and the others not knowing/noticing), I think, is a large part of why Ross was able to do that.  Tony was under a HUGE amount of pain and stress the entire movie, which was impacting his decision making.  He was just trying to fix things... but, not in a way that was actually going to fix anything because he was trying to do it by himself.  

Another difference I see between Tony and Cap is that Tony sees the huge, enormous big picture, but he is often hazy on the little details and how those details are going to impact others.  Steven is more about The Mission.  He's great at tactically assessing a situation, but not so good at thinking through the larger ramifications ahead of time.  He makes his decisions and judgments as he goes, based on what he has in front of him, but that also means he can be blindsided by something he didn't anticipate (like how Rumlow threw him off just by saying a name).  So together, they balance each other, but when they're at odds, they are both off balance.  

[Wynterwolf]

9 hours ago, ainon said:

We already know that Tony is currently researching the way memories work - it's safe to assume with a little bit of tweaking, Tony might have also come up with a way to overcome mind control triggers, or at the very least, helped Bucky cope with his trauma.

... Also, after third viewing last night, I wish I were a fly on the wall when T'Challa went to find Tony back in the complex after everything was all over, so I could hear that conversation.  And I will not be at all surprised if we find out that T'Challa keeps Tony informed of what's happening with Bucky, while Tony pours over all the data left at the complex, since that's basically everything he'll need to figure out how to undo what Hydra did. 

[VCRTracking]

Howard Stark, from what we learn from the Agent Carter series, grew up in poverty on the Lower East Side of New York and pulled himself by the bootstraps and struggled to be a success. I can understand him being annoyed by his own son laying on a couch, on break from a school he could never afford or be allowed to attend when he was the same age.

Edited May 22, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Danny Franks]

Just seen it, finally. And all I can really say is, I'll call this my latest lesson in not believing hype.

What a muddled, shallow, empty mess of a movie. Lots of cool little bits, some nice scenes, but completely bungled, from a narrative point of view. It never felt like its own movie, written as a complete piece that was worth paying money to see. It felt like someone just decided they wanted the Avengers to fight each other, and then someone else realised that would work quite well for the next Avengers movie. So they did it.

Oh, and they also felt they had to introduce new characters, and throw almost everyone into the mix, to the extent that no one, not even Cap himself, got enough focus to leave me satisfied. Despite what reviews said, this did not feel like a Captain America movie, and Bucky was not a co-lead. Hell, he wasn't even a character. He was a macguffin that was used to make everyone fall out. Might as well have just had a photo of him on the desk next to the Sokovia Accords.

What a waste of a character who could bring so much moral complexity and richness to a story. Instead of looking at his guilt and how he deals with all the things he's done, it boiled down to a couple of lines approximating regret, in between all the fighting. Sigh. Predictable, and immensely disappointing. Oh, and then they put him back on ice at the end because they didn't have time to actually address anything that Bucky's character requires, and clearly have no intention of doing so. 'Thanks for serving the plot, Bucky, now back in the freezer with you.'

As I said, there were lots of cool bits. Bucky making his escape on the motorbike, Spider-Man, Ant-Man becoming Giant-Man. But most of it could, and in my view should have been sacrificed in favour of actually nailing down an emotionally satisfying story to tell for Captain America, Bucky and the other characters involved (which should have been a lot less than actually appeared). Like I say, this never felt like a movie in its own right, just a vehicle to set up future movies. And that's not something I want to be spending my money on.

And hell, who knows, maybe if they'd cut out half the stuff that didn't need to be in the movie, they could have actually earned the Steve/Sharon kiss instead of it just being 'two attractive people have three scenes together, so of course they kiss'. They could have used Natasha's conflicted feelings more, and not had her simply disappear into thin air. They could have made Martin Freeman and Daniel Bruhl do some work, instead of being paint-by-numbers characters who honestly didn't need to be there. Hell, they could even have explored the idea of doing a little harm to do a lot of good, and the idea of control by committee, instead of just vaguely waving at them then having more fight scenes.

I will just say this, to people upset that Steve chose Bucky over Tony. No, he didn't. He chose right over wrong. Bucky did not do anything to Howard and Maria. He had no control over anything he did, and therefore should not be punished. That is patently unjust and unfair, and Steve Rogers recognises that. As usual, he was doing what was right. Does anyone here think that Steve would have let Tony kill a random unknown who had been mind controlled to kill Howard? I don't. Steve is better than that.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Danny Franks

[raven]

15 hours ago, ainon said:

By burying the possible truth about Starks' deaths, Steve denied justice to not just Tony Stark but to Howard Stark and Maria Stark. Steve must have heard about how Howard Stark spent time searching for him. He certainly knows that Howard never stopped talking about him. There can't have been any doubt in Steve's mind on how much Howard cared for him. Seems like a betrayal to Howard there. But it's definitely a betrayal to Tony.

If Tony had known about the murders earlier, Tony, Bruce Banner and JARVIS  could have actually researched into Hydra and the Winter Soldier program - it would have then been the Avengers who would have tracked down the Russian handler in Cleveland and it's not far-fetched to imagine the Avengers as a team would've then been able to handle the five hidden Winter Soldiers in Siberia. Natasha seems to know something too; she had some expectation that Bucky might recognize her.

There's been discussion about this, but I don't think Steve got confirmation that Bucky killed the Starks until this movie. Zola heavily implies in The Winter Soldier that Hydra arranged their car accident, but (to me anyway) there was no indication that the actual Winter Soldier killed them.  Steve doesn't even know what the Soldier looked like at that point (and he's not even mentioned), so when he finds out he's Bucky, he's in shock that this person is his friend with not much time to make the connection "hey I think he killed the Starks, even though it looked like a car accident".  If we had gotten a Sam & Steve searching for Bucky movie we might have found out that Steve suspected it.  I do think that's why Steve demands from Bucky the details of the 1991 mission; so he's getting confirmation when we are and there's not really time to confide in Tony. 

Natasha fights Bucky in TWS and on a previous mission that she tells Steve about.  That's what she means about Bucky not recognizing her, he's tried to kill her twice already.

If Tony was financing Steve & Sam, he would definitely have thrown it in Steve's face in this movie.   Why wouldn't Steve have his own resources? He was probably being paid pretty well by Shield and Sam had retired as a special ops type.  In the WS movie, both appeared to be living pretty frugally, and both are used to making do on missions with little. Shield is done, Steve declines to be part of whatever Fury is up to and goes off the grid with Sam.  I don't see him contacting Tony at all; it's a personal mission for him, he accepts intel from Natasha and help from Sam and that's it.  I wish we had gotten THAT movie, about the search, instead of "oh well we didn't find him!".

15 hours ago, ainon said:

What I really loved here though, was that in my mind, the Russo brothers had also subverted those tropes by giving us what on the surface is a hero, all while showing how his actions are actually detrimental to others and even harming his own cause.

Heh - that's how I feel about Tony in this movie.  Everything that happened pretty much showed the Accords weren't worth the paper they were printed on; both Tony and Nat violate them when it's convenient and Tony deliberately ignores a call from Ross at the end of the movie, probably about chasing after the escapees.   So everyone should sign this document because Tony feels so guilty, and is apparently still making the same mistakes because he's broken up from Pepper.   Plus Tony can bring in a young teenager...for some reason.  Was he supposed to sign too?  Or just bust up stuff at the airport?  Rhodey gets hurt because of Tony's ally, yet Tony takes it out on Sam.  I don't dislike Tony but he comes across as slightly unhinged and not making rational decisions.

Seriously, what are the punishments for Tony and Nat going off program?  That's another issue I have.  It's all "sign...or else" Or else what?  Who is going to arrest these people?  It's not much fun to be in hiding, true, but who can take them down?  How about working with them so that everyone is on the same page?  This is a group that is trying to help.  I'm not opposed to the idea of the Accords but the way they were presented in this movie was pretty problematic IMO. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by raven

[Wynterwolf]

20 minutes ago, raven said:

There's been discussion about this, but I don't think Steve got confirmation that Bucky killed the Starks until this movie. Zola heavily implies in The Winter Soldier that Hydra arranged their car accident, but (to me anyway) there was no indication that the actual Winter Soldier killed them.

Yeah, Steve had no idea Bucky was even alive when he learned that Tony's parents were killed by Hydra, but I think him not telling Tony even that was the bigger part of the feeling of betrayal on Tony's part, and because of the way Zemo orchestrated the reveal, Tony had no way of knowing that Steve didn't know all along that it was Bucky, and kept it from him to protect Bucky which was just another twist of the knife.  

 

20 minutes ago, raven said:

Plus Tony can bring in a young teenager...for some reason.

At first I think he was just after the webbing, until he realized that it wasn't tech.  But Tony was desperate to find a non combat way to neutralize TeamCap, so he brought Peter with the express instruction to just web everybody up and not get into things... but Peter kinda ignored his instructions, and Cap had a lot more firepower than Tony expected.  

And yeah, Steven wouldn't have trusted anyone but Sam and Nat in trying to find Bucky after WS.  

Edited May 22, 2016 by Wynterwolf
Argh, spelling.

[Danny Franks]

40 minutes ago, raven said:

Natasha fights Bucky in TWS and on a previous mission that she tells Steve about.  That's what she means about Bucky not recognizing her, he's tried to kill her twice already.

 

Well, we don't know that's what she means. It can be assumed, but I think the ambiguity is deliberate, because the Russos and/or Marvel wanted to be able to tease fans about the possibility of a history between Natasha and Bucky without having to follow up on it or put in any work for it.

Which is another thing that annoys me. Either fish or cut bait, don't throw in empty teases and oblique references that don't go anywhere.

[stealinghome]

Quote

Then in this movie, after everything went pear-shaped and he realized the UN psychiatrist wasn't a real psychiatrist at all, Steve still kept quiet in the interest of keeping Bucky hidden from the world. It apparently never occurred to Steve to report that Zemo had infiltrated the UN, or to start investigations into how to capture Zemo before he reached Siberia. We know this because we saw Zemo safely taking a regular flight out of the country to go to Moscow, and once in Russia, Zemo was again travelling freely. And yet Zemo could have been stopped at any time, by any local authority - if they'd known to look for him! 

That's not true. Steve DID furnish Ross (and Tony) with the information. Ross explicitly said that he was ignoring it because he thought it was BS. Tony knew better, and that's how he ended up in Siberia, because he couldn't ignore it.

Quote

The way Steve Rogers was behaving, I highly doubt he would have worked together with the UN to resolve anything. He didn't believe in oversight, and apparently wasn't even willing to sit and talk about governance with his team members.

Steve was a hairsbreadth away from signing the Accords in this movie, so it seems inaccurate to say he didn't believe in oversight and wasn't willing to discuss it. He WAS, most definitely, willing to open a dialogue. But then they revealed that Tony had put Wanda under house arrest (no matter how nice the prison is, it's still a prison, and Vision had orders to keep Wanda there against her will) and Steve was reminded of all the reasons he shouldn't sign the Accords. Because putting Wanda under house arrest for basically existing is going way too far, and is not a "dialogue."

Quote

both Tony and Nat violate them when it's convenient and Tony deliberately ignores a call from Ross at the end of the movie, probably about chasing after the escapees

This! So much this. I called from before the movie even came out that I wouldn't be able to take Tony seriously because the moment the Accords became inconvenient for him, he'd toss them aside and do whatever he wanted to do. Which is exactly what happened. Tony is immensely hypocritical here--if he's such a True Believer in the Accords, maybe he should try abiding by them for more than 24 hours before he starts screeching at everyone else about them.

Edited May 22, 2016 by stealinghome

[scriggle]

The whole Accords things is so messed up.

Ross shows up with Tony, drops a phonebook sized document on the table, gives them an ultimatum "sign this or retire" and tells them The Accords WILL be ratified in 3 days.  That really doesn't give Steve or anyone else who may object time to read/study the hundreds of pages of legalese or have the opportunity to get some lawyers to look at.  Ross isn't leaving any room for negotiation.  Steve is the only shown actually reading them prior to getting the text about Peggy.

I just can't figure Tony in this.

Either 1) he's so fucked up emotionally that he's grasping at anything to relieve his guilt and is willing to sign without going through the Accords with a fine toothed comb.

or

2) he's had advanced notice of the Accords, read them, but didn't tell anyone else and just decided he knew what would be best. 

Personally, I lean towards option 1.

As far as his parents' murder: Zemo explicitly states he found out about the 1991 mission by decrypting the SHIELD/HYDRA files that Natasha released and that led him the Russian handler for the paper files.  We're supposed to believe that Tony wasn't all over those files like ants at a picnic? Really?  Tony values information.

In Cap2, Zola implies to Steve and Natasha that HYDRA was responsible for the Starks' death.  Neither of them had any clue the Winter Soldier was involved.

I really wish we got at true follow-up to Cap2. Steve and Sam with the help of Natasha and possibly Sharon tracking down Bucky with Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers as the big bad. The bones of it are still there in Civil War. I just feel that Cap's final solo movie got highjacked by Tony's manpain.

Edited May 23, 2016 by scriggle
because prepositions are our friends

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

At first I think he was just after the webbing, until he realized that it wasn't tech.  But Tony was desperate to find a non combat way to neutralize TeamCap, so he brought Peter with the express instruction to just web everybody up and not get into things... but Peter kinda ignored his instructions, and Cap had a lot more firepower than Tony expected.  

 

It was tech. In one Sony series it was Peter's father in the other biological. Here it was touched on like the rest of the origin story that Peter developed the webbing.

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Raja said:

It was tech. In one Sony series it was Peter's father in the other biological. Here it was touched on like the rest of the origin story that Peter developed the webbing.

Ah, I did not know that... I was just remembering the Sam Rami movie version, and didn't realize that was not comic-accurate. I'd still say that the tech was complicated enough that no one but Peter would have been able to use it effectively.

[Terrafamilia]

What kind of paprikash was the Vision trying to make that had only a pinch of paprika? Or did I mishear something?

[stealinghome]

Quote

I just feel that Cap's final solo movie got highjacked by Tony's manpain.

And Marvel's inability to say no to RDJ.

[Morrigan2575]

50 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

What kind of paprikash was the Vision trying to make that had only a pinch of paprika? Or did I mishear something?

The kind that I would make since I hate paprika? LOL

[ainon]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

That's not true. Steve DID furnish Ross (and Tony) with the information. Ross explicitly said that he was ignoring it because he thought it was BS. Tony knew better, and that's how he ended up in Siberia, because he couldn't ignore it.

Steve was a hairsbreadth away from signing the Accords in this movie, so it seems inaccurate to say he didn't believe in oversight and wasn't willing to discuss it. He WAS, most definitely, willing to open a dialogue. But then they revealed that Tony had put Wanda under house arrest (no matter how nice the prison is, it's still a prison, and Vision had orders to keep Wanda there against her will) and Steve was reminded of all the reasons he shouldn't sign the Accords. Because putting Wanda under house arrest for basically existing is going way too far, and is not a "dialogue."

This! So much this. I called from before the movie even came out that I wouldn't be able to take Tony seriously because the moment the Accords became inconvenient for him, he'd toss them aside and do whatever he wanted to do. Which is exactly what happened. Tony is immensely hypocritical here--if he's such a True Believer in the Accords, maybe he should try abiding by them for more than 24 hours before he starts screeching at everyone else about them.Tony

Steve did nothing, that we saw, to move the investigations along on the ground. Tony obtained the information about the fake psychiatrist via Friday, who presumably culled it from police feeds after the police crashed into the hotel room where the real psychiatrist's body was found. All of which happened after Zemo himself called the hotel from Siberia so that the hotel staff could discover the body.

It was Tony who then provided the information to Ross, and I'm actually not too surprised that Ross thought it was BS. From where Ross stood, it probably looked like Tony was jerking him along and letting Steve get loose every time. And it was at the Raft that Sam told Tony to go alone, as a friend, to ... well, I'm not sure what Sam thought Tony could do against five Winter Soldiers. Six, if Bucky were to accidentally get triggered again. As far as Tony knew, there was something afoot, a Sokovian was involved, and Bucky had been framed. I guess it's a fair guessing game whether or not Tony was even thinking of the Accords at that point.

I have to admit Wanda annoys me so I'll readily declare that house arrest was a super grand deal for Wanda after what she'd done. Yes, she made a mistake. But it's very true that people are afraid of her and it's also quite apparent to me she overuses her powers: what she did to Vision was surely excessive, and during the airport skirmish, as I recall it, she was the first one to take direct debilitating hits on people. She whammied Natasha because Clint wasn't hitting her hard enough?! And she crashed cars onto Iron Man. Which made for a funny moment, sure, but why exactly was she escalating the fights?

So for Steve to take affront on her being held in a 'nice prison' in the USA instead of being deported? She can't even take to being 'grounded'? Nope, I have zero respect for Steve for that. Wanda isn't above the law and shouldn't be any more special than any ordinary person who makes lethal mistakes in the line of duty.  

[scriggle]

Quote

Steve did nothing, that we saw, to move the investigations along on the ground. Tony obtained the information about the fake psychiatrist via Friday, who presumably culled it from police feeds after the police crashed into the hotel room where the real psychiatrist's body was found. All of which happened after Zemo himself called the hotel from Siberia so that the hotel staff could discover the body.

Steve didn't know about the dead psychiatrist.  But, at the airport, he approached Team IronMan by himself and told him about Zemo going to Siberia where the other Winter Soldiers were kept. Tony didn't want to listen to him.  He called in Underoos to web Steve.

Tony presented actual proof about Zemo to Ross who basically scoffed at him.

Quote

So for Steve to take affront on her being held in a 'nice prison' in the USA instead of being deported? She can't even take to being 'grounded'? Nope, I have zero respect for Steve for that. Wanda isn't above the law and shouldn't be any more special than any ordinary person who makes lethal mistakes in the line of duty.  

But at that point Wanda hadn't broken any law. She simply refused to sign.  So yeah, okay, she's not a citizen, deport her.  I think Steve saw that as the beginning of a slippery slope. Detention without due process.  Which is exactly what happened to Sam, Clint, Wanda & Scott.  Even Tony was surprised they were being held in the raft. 

Speaking of Scott, why was he being held there?  Either the Accords apply only to the Avengers or they don't.  If they don't then Peter Parker & T'Calla are just as guilty of operating without UN sanction as Team Cap.

[stealinghome]

Quote

But at that point Wanda hadn't broken any law. She simply refused to sign.  So yeah, okay, she's not a citizen, deport her.  I think Steve saw that as the beginning of a slippery slope. Detention without due process.  Which is exactly what happened to Sam, Clint, Wanda & Scott.  Even Tony was surprised they were being held in the raft. 

Don't forget that Bucky was denied his right to legal counsel as well.

I still am unclear as to what happened with Wanda and the bomb in Nigeria, I have to say. From what I remember in the movie, Crossbones hit the trigger for the bomb, Wanda contained the blast so it wouldn't kill Steve and all the people in the square, Wanda funneled the blast up trying to get it to the sky so it would "go off" harmlessly, but she lost her grip halfway through and it blew out a floor of a building. Is the idea supposed to be that her using her powers made the bomb blast worse? Because it feels like if she hadn't acted, a lot of people would still have died, it would just have been a different set of people.

[Jediknight]

5 hours ago, scriggle said:

As far as his parents' murder: Zemo explicitly states he found out about the 1991 mission by decrypting the SHIELD/HYDRA files that Natasha released and that led him the Russian handler for the paper files.  We're supposed to believe that Tony wasn't all over those files like ants at a picnic? Really?  Tony values information.

Well, Tony's been kind of busy since that happened.  He was hunting down HYDRA installations in search of Loki's scepter along with the rest of the Avengers, he helped to create a murder-bot, he helped stop that murder-bot, he did the usual Avenger butt kicking, he was probably also trying to find Banner, and that's not getting into everything he'd be doing for Stark Industries.  I'd say Tony was a little busy, so he hadn't been able to go over everything.

3 hours ago, ainon said:

I have to admit Wanda annoys me so I'll readily declare that house arrest was a super grand deal for Wanda after what she'd done. Yes, she made a mistake. But it's very true that people are afraid of her and it's also quite apparent to me she overuses her powers: what she did to Vision was surely excessive, and during the airport skirmish, as I recall it, she was the first one to take direct debilitating hits on people. She whammied Natasha because Clint wasn't hitting her hard enough?! And she crashed cars onto Iron Man. Which made for a funny moment, sure, but why exactly was she escalating the fights?

For Vision, she knew it wouldn't kill him, she just wanted to buy enough time for her and Clint to get out of there.  With Natasha, I think Wanda definitely held back, she could have done much worse, she probably wanted Natasha out of it to make escape easier.  I don't think she was trying to injure Natasha, or anything like that.  The cars being dropped on Tony, remember she and Clint set that up, and both of them would know that Tony's armor could more than handle it.  They weren't trying to hurt him, they were trying to pin him down so Cap and Bucky could get to the Quinjet.

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

Because it feels like if she hadn't acted, a lot of people would still have died, it would just have been a different set of people.

That's true, but unfortunately in a situation like that, what's true doesn't really matter, its about how the 'facts' are spun. If she hadn't intervened and the bomb had gone off in the market, I doubt if the fallout would have been quite as intense, but because the victims were Wakandan, and outside the immediate conflict zone, detractors were able to use it, and her, as an example.  

[Perfect Xero]

The first thing Tony did in Avengers was hack the SHIELD systems to see what Fury was really up to. Hydra agents in the government were out to get the Iron Man armor from him in IM3. They were trying to clear out Hydra at the start of AoU, decrypting those files could have been very helpful in that. I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have been all over those files the second Natasha put them on the web.

3 hours ago, scriggle said:

But at that point Wanda hadn't broken any law. She simply refused to sign.  So yeah, okay, she's not a citizen, deport her.  I think Steve saw that as the beginning of a slippery slope. Detention without due process.  Which is exactly what happened to Sam, Clint, Wanda & Scott.  Even Tony was surprised they were being held in the raft. 

Speaking of Scott, why was he being held there?  Either the Accords apply only to the Avengers or they don't.  If they don't then Peter Parker & T'Calla are just as guilty of operating without UN sanction as Team Cap.

Wanda broke lots of laws and caused a lot of damage in Age of Ultron though. She's in the US without a visa, but is apparently being allowed residency at the Avengers compound, which is odd (IMO). Her situation could have used some clarification if her being "interred" was going to end up being one of the major turning points in the movie, IMO.

Sam, Clint, Wanda, and Scott directly aided in the escape of a wanted fugitive (and theft of a quinjet), maybe they were justified from a moral POV because they believed they were doing so to stop a major threat in Zemo, but what they did was clearly illegal and would have been with or without the Accords in place. 

 

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

Don't forget that Bucky was denied his right to legal counsel as well.

I still am unclear as to what happened with Wanda and the bomb in Nigeria, I have to say. From what I remember in the movie, Crossbones hit the trigger for the bomb, Wanda contained the blast so it wouldn't kill Steve and all the people in the square, Wanda funneled the blast up trying to get it to the sky so it would "go off" harmlessly, but she lost her grip halfway through and it blew out a floor of a building. Is the idea supposed to be that her using her powers made the bomb blast worse? Because it feels like if she hadn't acted, a lot of people would still have died, it would just have been a different set of people.

It seemed to me like Wanda might have inadvertently funneled the bomb blast into the building when her containment field broke down. I don't think it matters, the issue wasn't about blaming her, it was that the Avengers engaged dangerous armed individuals in the middle of a crowded city without the okay or support of the local authorities to operate within their borders and a lot of people were hurt or killed as a result. If they'd passed their intel along to the proper people and been given permission to engage Crossbones and then everything had played out exactly the same way with the bomb it would have been a much different situation in the aftermath because they would have been operating at the behest of the Nigerian government rather than on their own.

[stealinghome]

I don't disagree that the situation would have been different had Cap's team had official permission to be there, but imo that's not how the movie articulated people's problems with what went down--the movie played it as if people were all "Wanda killed people, she's a monster!" when that's...not really what we saw on screen. We don't normally put under house arrest bomb guys who fail to defuse a particular bomb.

For me, it goes back to the problematic (and far too simplistic) way the movie had Ross framing the Avengers' deeds, as if saving New York or crashing the HYDRA killcarriers were some big sins they should be ashamed of. When that's the frame, as it was in the movie, Ross should be laughed out of Avengers Tower.

argh, the more I think about this movie the more discontent I become with it. So many of my fundamental problems with it would have been SO easy to fix.