Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[ybrik]

Ruby25 the First Order is an insurgency. They aren't the ruling government. There is the New Republic who rule the government. It wasn't exactly explained in the movie but as posted in other posts, the Rebels and Empire had a final battle on Jakku post-ROTJ and came to terms. The New Republic formed and both the Republic and the old Empire sides disarmed their military. The First Order is a new group fighting against the Republic and the Resistance is fighting to stop them because the Republic broke up their army and haven't reorganized. So the resistance is the unsanctioned army of the Republic.

 

Right now reading the new visual dictionary and getting more info on the world that movie takes place in.

 

One thing I did notice that I haven't seen mentioned but the pilot helmet that Rey has at the beginning that she puts on has "V' on it. In ANH Luke's helmet has the same thing when he was designated Red 5.

[SNeaker]

I absolutely believe Rey is a Solo child. The flight skills, the Wookiee comprehension, the Force sensitivity. It all adds up. I think she was thought dead when Ren went off the rails and then ended up on Jakku. Neither parent mentions her or has been looking for her because they think she is dead.

 

I've been thinking and thinking about Rey's abandonment on Jakku and who would have done it. It seems hard for me to imagine Luke abandoning his daughter or niece and ignoring her cries even if he thought it was for her own safety. He himself disappeared -- if it was him who did it, why couldn't he have just taken her with him to wherever he ran off to?

 

So now I wonder if maybe it was actually Kylo himself. Unable to bring himself to kill his little sister or cousin (especially early on in his fall to the dark side), he instead abandons her on a far off planet (not evil enough to kill her, but cold enough to ignore her cries, and it would explain why she seems to have not wanted him to leave her since he would be someone she would know and love) and lets everyone believe she died. He seemed particularly upset when the First Order goon mentioned a girl and there seemed to be a kind of fascination with her on his part -- plus he did want to take her on as apprentice.

[Danny Franks]

I was looking for some clarification on this, because on Jakku when Finn didn't shoot at the village, it seemed like Kylo Ren could sense -- what I assumed was-- Finn's force sensitivity. Kylo Ren then immediately identifies Finn as the escaped stormtrooper without having to look up his call number. That was the only implication I saw that Finn could be force sensitive, but it could have just been me misinterpreting the scene. 

 

I didn't see that as sensing his Force sensitivity, but more that Kylo Ren noticed something odd about that Stormtrooper staring at him, and recalled it when he heard one had betrayed them. It seems like everyone avoids being noticed by him, as much as possible, so one guy just standing there staring has to be out of the ordinary.

The Jedi celibacy thing seems like it was only invented to give Anakin and Padme some forbidden angst in the prequels. Well, that worked out great. I don't know what Lucas's plan was originally, but Luke had relationships and eventually married in the EU books, so the idea of love being forbidden for Jedis isn't total (it's also very silly).

 

I absolutely believe Rey is a Solo child. The flight skills, the Wookiee comprehension, the Force sensitivity. It all adds up. I think she was thought dead when Ren went off the rails and then ended up on Jakku. Neither parent mentions her or has been looking for her because they think she is dead.

 

I still like the idea, because it would tie Rey's backstory into the core story better, and wouldn't open up some side-plot where her family suddenly become an issue. But the instant connection she had with everything Han, and that she seemed to have with Leia when they met, it has to mean something. I can handwave them never mentioning a daughter or considering Rey might be her, if the backstory for it is good enough. I also like the idea of Chewie transferring his loyalty to Rey, now Han is gone.

 

Though I wonder if Rey's parentage will have more light shed on it in Rogue One. As I understand it, that movie will be set just before A New Hope, and stars Felicity Jones, who doesn't look completely dissimilar to Daisy Ridley. It would be a good way of tying the expanding universe together.

[benteen]

I think Luke, Han and Leia would put their kids into hiding in order to protect them but they would have made sure to send them to a loving couple or guardian with some kind of protection.  Leia was raised by the Organas and while Alderaan had no weapons, Leia was protected by a Royal House and her father's political connections.  Luke was given to his step-uncle and aunt Owen and Beru, who took care of them and had Obi-Wan looking after him.  Rey seems like she was left with a junk dealer.

[VCRTracking]

Rey seems like she was left with a junk dealer.

 

Who has the same accent as her, which is a cool detail. Young Rey in the flashback sounded American but hanging around him she would have picked up his.

[Ronin Jackson]

Luke is the last Jedi... I think he might some freedom to set new rules when it comes to celibacy. I imagine if he was feeling horny he might have thought "Man, I wouldn't even be BORN if a Jedi didn't get laid!"

 

Still, I'd be happy if we didn't have to find out Rey is force sensitive because she's related to the right person. I know that's been a part of the Star Wars mythology and it did make for a juicy, iconic plot twist in Empire, but the strict adherence to the hereditary aspect of force sensitivity never really jived with me.

 

BTW just the very fact that force sensitivity is hereditary in this universe sort of makes the Jedi Celibacy rule a bit silly isn't it? Where exactly were they finding force sensitive people to train as Jedi if the ones they found couldn't have children?
 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[Boundary]

I've been thinking and thinking about Rey's abandonment on Jakku and who would have done it. It seems hard for me to imagine Luke abandoning his daughter or niece and ignoring her cries even if he thought it was for her own safety. He himself disappeared -- if it was him who did it, why couldn't he have just taken her with him to wherever he ran off to?

 

I think it's exactly the point. What would make Luke abandon his kid like that? And if we feel like that, imagine what it would feel like to Rey herself, or more practically, to Daisy as she's portraying these feelings. Besides, maybe 'abandon' is a strong word because the condition in we meet Rey isn't necessarily the one Luke left her in. She is a pilot, obviously having flown here and there but also bound by a promise not to leave. There's a compelling backstory here.

[Brn2bwild]

The only issue I have with Rey being Luke's daughter is that he's been gone for 30 years, and she in no way looks 30.  While it's possible Rey is supposed to be several years older than Daisy Ridley, if she is younger than 30, she would have been born after Luke disappeared.  That makes Han and Leia's reactions make sense -- they could both feel like they know her, but don't quite know who she is.  Otherwise, it puts her in the "not Luke's daughter" camp, and points to her either being Rey Solo or someone else.

[DrSpaceman73]

Saw the movie today almost completely unspoiled. I purposely avoided reading anything about it beforehand, but just the headlines and nonspecific things here and there told me Han was likely going to do. Other than that knew nothing

I really enjoyed the movie. Much better than any of the prequels. I would put it about on par with Episode IV.

My problem with the film, and I think its been mentioned, is just the story was not that original. Seems to borrow way too many elements of things we have already seen and just mixed them up a little. Evil Lord related to a good guy character, droid with secret information trying to get it to the rebels, big weapon that has to be destroyed by the Rebels, orphaned main character that doesn't know her "true" identity (and we still don't know), Jedi in disarray with a hiding hermit leader they need to find........it's all stuff we saw in Episode IV.

Still it was a nice reboot and a good way to kick off a new story. It's gave just enough information to be interested in what happened between Jedi and this one. They did not bog it down in political jumbo jumbo explaining everything technically that was not needed like they did in the prequels.

Rey may not be Luke's daughter, the easy answer, but she is a Skywalker I am guessing in some way.

The one original idea I did like in this one is the Stormtrooper defecting to help the Jedi. It was a nice twist.

[Morrigan2575]

I've been thinking and thinking about Rey's abandonment on Jakku and who would have done it. It seems hard for me to imagine Luke abandoning his daughter or niece and ignoring her cries even if he thought it was for her own safety. He himself disappeared -- if it was him who did it, why couldn't he have just taken her with him to wherever he ran off to?

So now I wonder if maybe it was actually Kylo himself. Unable to bring himself to kill his little sister or cousin (especially early on in his fall to the dark side), he instead abandons her on a far off planet (not evil enough to kill her, but cold enough to ignore her cries, and it would explain why she seems to have not wanted him to leave her since he would be someone she would know and love) and lets everyone believe she died. He seemed particularly upset when the First Order goon mentioned a girl and there seemed to be a kind of fascination with her on his part -- plus he did want to take her on as apprentice.

I like this theory. I definitely think she's connected to Luke/Leia, I've been working under the impression that she's Luke's daughter. I figured he left her there to hide her after Kylo Ren turned on the new Jedi. The fact that Luke/Anakin's lightsaber called to Rey could point to either Luke or Leia as her parent. The fact that Rey seemed to unknowingly dream of where Luke was hiding (revealed when Ren was reading her mind), leads me to think she's Luke's daughter. On the other hand the fact that she thought of Han as a father figure, Leia's hug at the end and some of Han's reactions to Rey (like the guilty/sad face when Rey takes about never thinking there could be so much green in the whole universe).

Right now I'm thinking Luke is her father and Han/Leia hid Rey on Jakku after Ren killed the new Jedi and Luke went into exile

The only issue I have with Rey being Luke's daughter is that he's been gone for 30 years, and she in no way looks 30. While it's possible Rey is supposed to be several years older than Daisy Ridley, if she is younger than 30, she would have been born after Luke disappeared.

I dont think Luke has been gone for 30 years. Luke was training new Jedi and went into exile after Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side. Ren appears to be in his mid to late 20s. I think Luke took off 10-15 years prior to the start of The Force Awakens. Rey looked to be about 5 when she was abandoned and anywhere from 17-20 in The Force Awakens. Edited December 22, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[SNeaker]

The only issue I have with Rey being Luke's daughter is that he's been gone for 30 years, and she in no way looks 30.  While it's possible Rey is supposed to be several years older than Daisy Ridley, if she is younger than 30, she would have been born after Luke disappeared.  That makes Han and Leia's reactions make sense -- they could both feel like they know her, but don't quite know who she is.  Otherwise, it puts her in the "not Luke's daughter" camp, and points to her either being Rey Solo or someone else.

 

He hasn't been gone for 30 years. Ben is about 30, from what I can gather, and probably a teenager when he went evil and destroyed the Jedi academy that Luke had restarted. It was then that Luke went into exile, so say 10-15 years before TFA. Rey is probably 20ish as of this film. Which would put her at about 5 when she was abandoned.

 

The way I see it, they're providing clues to point to her either being Luke's or Han/Leia's daughter with the intention of keeping us guessing. They might enjoy the "twist" of her being neither, but I hope they don't go that route or what's the point.

 

For Luke as father: Her connection to the lightsaber, piloting talent, seeing him in the flashback, seeming fascinated with him, being the one to find him, and Han and Leia not either recognizing her or mentioning a lost daughter.

 

For Han/Leia as parents: Connection to Anakin's lightsaber could also be through Leia, piloting talent could be through Han (and Anakin), instinctive knowledge with the Falcon, connection to Han and seeing him as father figure, understanding Chewie (and his obvious affection for her), the hug with Leia (whom she hadn't actually met at that point), and no need for a rando love interest for Luke.

Edited December 22, 2015 by SNeaker

[Conan Troutman]

So now I wonder if maybe it was actually Kylo himself. Unable to bring himself to kill his little sister or cousin (especially early on in his fall to the dark side), he instead abandons her on a far off planet (not evil enough to kill her, but cold enough to ignore her cries, and it would explain why she seems to have not wanted him to leave her since he would be someone she would know and love) and lets everyone believe she died. He seemed particularly upset when the First Order goon mentioned a girl and there seemed to be a kind of fascination with her on his part -- plus he did want to take her on as apprentice.

 

I just can't believe that Leia would buy that so easily. While she's not a trained Jedi herself, she said in the OT she always felt a connection to Luke. Vader and Luke felt each other's presence. Okay, if Kylo dropped her off far enough, maybe she wouldn't have noticed immediately. But when Leia and Rey met again, that should've popped up. Plus Leia should've sensed that Kylo was lying (not necessarily via Jedi powers, just motherly instinct and kids being poor liars). Same for Han, he caught onto the fact that Finn was holding something back pretty fast and even said "women always find out". So no, Rey being a Solo/Organa would pose all sorts of problems and I really hope they don't go that way.

 

I dont think Luke has been gone for 30 years. Luke was training new Jedi and went into exile after Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side. Ren appears to be in his mid to late 20s. I think Luke took off 10-15 years prior to the start of The Force Awakens. Rey looked to be about 5 when she was abandoned and anywhere from 17-20 in The Force Awakens.

 

Exactly, Luke didn't go into hiding straight after RotJ. Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley are 32 and 23 respectively, so if we assume their characters are a couple years younger each, that checks out. So yeah, Rey could easily be Luke's daughter. Besides, he doesn't have to have abandoned her. It's entirely possible Rey's mother ran away very early in her pregnancy, unbeknownst to Luke, or something like that. So her being a Skywalker works a lot better than her being a Solo/Organa.

 

Though I would probably prefer it if Rey was simply some random girl.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[Ronin Jackson]

It's not part of the Star Wars mythology that Force sensitivity is hereditary. Children born in Republic were all tested for sensitivity - not just those from Force families. Like you said, it's not even practical - they'd literally thin out the Jedi gene pool without replenishing it.  Anakin Skywalker was 'conceived' by the Force - the Skywalkers are freaks even by Jedi standards. 

 

If that's the canon interpretation, it still implies a hereditary transfer of "freaky" force sensitivity. The hereditary nature of it has very much been part of the Star Wars mythology... and that part of it has continued into the new movies with Kylo Ren. I think it's too late to hope they aren't going that way with Rey... they are. I'd put the odds at better than 9 to 10 that in some way, she's a Skywalker. It's been part of the mythology from pretty close to the start, and I'll be honest, I love "No, I am your father", but I've never liked how much that became part of the mythology. 

[Morrigan2575]

Reylo? No, no, no. Kylo Ren needs to die a horrible death...sorry my anger will not accept redemption for him.

Makes me sad for Leia though.

Actually when you think about it, there's no happy ending, no promise of something better that we got with Jedi. That's the biggest negative (for me) to the sequel.

[Ronin Jackson]

Reylo!? I will never get what comes out of you sometimes, internet. I'm just glad I can ignore a lot of it...

 

The Star Wars saga certainly has been the story of a family and I'm not arguing that should change... even if I don't like the hereditary emphasis on the force. I think it puts Rian Johnson in kind of a bad situation to have to reveal this after close to two years of speculation in a hyperactive internet/social media age. I expect he shouldn't wait too long after episode 8 starts. If Rey is Luke or Leia's daughter it will be about as surprising as a sun rise. But I hell that's still cool if it's shot well.

[anna0852]

Oh definitely, the hereditary nature for the Skywalkers has been there from beginning and I am 100% certain that Rey is Luke Skywlaker's daughter. The only question, to me, was which twin was Rey's parent. I called it - that she was Luke's, not Leia's, as far back as the first teaser when his voice over is narrating how the Force is strong in his family.  Plus, this saga has always been about this family. I doubt that they'd suddenly turn around and make Rey a random

Rey is still a part of his family if she's Leia's child. :-)

 

I'd prefer she be Han and Leia's daughter simply to keep the backstory moving. It's a lot easier narrative wise to explain that she was thought dead than to come up with a Luke having a relationship completely off-screen that we are meant to care about. Rey being Luke's child will cause more focus on the past which slows down moving the narrative forward.

[Joe]

I think Rey is Luke's daughter. When she grabs the lightsabre, Luke's theme plays! It has to be deliberate. Listen to the soundtrack too, the track is the Ways of the Force.

[Ronin Jackson]

Okay. here's another reason for me to complain, which admittedly it took me a a while to remember because they were so fleeting, but why were Iko Uwais and Yayan Ruhian in this movie? I mean they aren't in makeup or stormtrooper gear, it's not motion capture.... we see them and recognize them (for those of us who know who they are, and if you aren't hip, just watch the The Raid series. Trust me on this, watch it.) If we get to see them and get excited about them being in the movie, how is it that they don't even get to do some good old fashioned inter-galactic ass kickin'? Rian Johnson, paging Rian Johnson... right that wrong. But hell their characters can have no more involvement in the story, unless they are after Chewbacca to settle the debt. It seems like they had a scene cut. Otherwise it's baffling they were in it at all.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Ronin Jackson

[VCRTracking]

‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ – J.J. Abrams Explains the Thinking Behind THAT Kylo Ren Scene

[Joe]

Ronin, I agree. I wondered that myself. Between them and Gwendoline Christie and a rumour I heard about a parkour team being hired, I was expecting some completely insane lightsabre fights. The one we got was really good, but not what I expected.

[SNeaker]

I just can't believe that Leia would buy that so easily. While she's not a trained Jedi herself, she said in the OT she always felt a connection to Luke. Vader and Luke felt each other's presence. Okay, if Kylo dropped her off far enough, maybe she wouldn't have noticed immediately. But when Leia and Rey met again, that should've popped up. Plus Leia should've sensed that Kylo was lying (not necessarily via Jedi powers, just motherly instinct and kids being poor liars). Same for Han, he caught onto the fact that Finn was holding something back pretty fast and even said "women always find out". So no, Rey being a Solo/Organa would pose all sorts of problems and I really hope they don't go that way.

 

But what's a little plot hole between friends? :)

 

Seriously, though, Vader didn't recognize Leia when he tortured her, and while Leia always felt a connection to Luke she didn't realize he was her brother. Else she might not have kissed him. Twice. It is true that if Leia and Han had a daughter and this girl shows up whom Leia feels a connection to (which she must, given that hug) that she should suspect something. But the same would be true if Rey is Luke's daughter. And Kylo may not have been the one to tell Leia that Rey was dead -- she could  have just assumed it from the massacre with no survivors.

 

I do think Luke's daughter makes more sense given the events of this movie. But on an emotional level I'm hoping for Solo.

[absnow54]

I doubt that they'd suddenly turn around and make Rey a random, (or a Kenobi - as most Reylo fans on tumblr want).

There's, like, a 99% probability that they're first cousins at best and siblings at worst. I know Game of Thrones has dulled the fictional sense of "Oh no! Incest!" but I was sort of startled by the Les Cousins Dangereux fandom that instantly popped up.

[Danny Franks]

"Reylo" fandom? So the woobiefication of Kylo Ren begins already, huh? He's just a big, sad teddy bear who needs a hug and the love of a good woman to set him right? Or is it more about abuse of Rey? Sometimes, fandom can be so predictable. Hopefully the people making the creative decisions for Star Wars will just double, and then triple, down on his villainy.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Danny Franks

[JessePinkman]

Personally I'll be severely disappointed if Rey is Han and Leia's, not only because it makes little sense to me (I'm assuming that some time passed between Rey battling Kylo and then leaving to find Luke, would she and Leia not have had a conversation? A simple talk would have a lightbulb go off in Leia's head that says "Hey! You're my kid that was kidnapped/hidden away!". Anything else feels like plot-y bullshit to me) but because Han is dead and him not being able to establish a real relationship with his daughter is just depressing.

 

Speaking of families, I hope (HOPE) that we get to learn about Finn's and I really don't want him to be related to Sam Jackson's character or Lando, there can be more than 2 black people in the galaxy. His and Rey's backstories are so tragic, she was abandoned or what have you as a child and he was kidnapped. I know he has his makeshift family in Rey and Poe (and BB-8) but if Rey gets to find her actual family, why shouldn't he? The whole series is essentially about the power of familial love, if would be nice if they kept that up with his character.

[Guest]

Loved the movie.  My husband and I were there at 7 p.m. Thursday in Han and Leia shirts.  

 

We are of differing opinions on Kylo Ren.  I want him to have a redemption arc, but my husband thinks he shouldn't since he killed his father.  I want him to have the redemption mainly for Leia's sake and Han's memory.

 

I don't think Rey is a Solo.  They didn't seem to sense her or react like she would be their daughter's age if their daughter had lived, etc.  

 

As soon as Ren took off his mask, he just seemed like a petulant child to me.  I can't explain it, but the actor played it super emo when he wasn't wearing his mask.

[Danny Franks]

The only OT Jedi that we know - Yoda & Obi-Wan - wanted Luke to abandon his friends to die in Bespin, and were grooming him to kill his father. Their very appearance - long brown robes, 'ascetic' nature, 'Force-worshippers' is monkish. A lot of people complain about how cold the PT Jedi were - but the seeds of their Knight Templar nature were planted right in the OT. It's not far-off in the least that rather like the real Knight Templars, they also monks in every sense of the word. There's no real conflict with the EU New Jedi Order and the PT Jedi. The whole point was that the PT Jedi had gone too far, become too rigid in their rules and become the architect of their destruction - which is usually how these things happen - decay eats from within first, before an external force comes to topple down the system. Luke had the chance to start afresh and that's what he did. The Jedi-no-attachment wasn't invented for Anakin/Padmé. The seeds of it were already in the OT. 

 

They didn't want Luke to abandon his friends in order to further his training or cut ties with emotions or anything like that. They just said he wasn't ready. And he wasn't. He was almost killed by Vader and only survived by trying to kill himself and getting really bloody lucky.

 

The Jedi may be monkish in their behaviour, and there may be some aspects of it that call back to Templar and Hospitaller practices, but there's nothing in the original trilogy that suggests they were forbidden love. And of course, in the early Medieval Church, celibacy was not enforced. It only became so once when the Church decided it didn't want any more priesthoods and diocese being handed down to sons. It was a way for the Church to maintain control. Templars took vows of chastity, but they also took vows of poverty. Yet they became one of the richest organisations in Christendom.

 

The love triangle in the original trilogy was not resolved with, 'well, I gotta take my Jedi vows, so that's me out. Good luck, Han, old buddy'. It was the reveal that Luke and Leia were siblings. I maintain that Lucas needed to give Anakin and Padme their forbidden love story, so he decided that Jedis were forbidden love. Having no attachments is not a sound foundation for a life of faith and goodness, I think any behavioural psychologist would probably agree on that. Jedi are supposed to have love for everyone but love no one. That doesn't make sense.

 

Anyway, I have my suspicions that this will be something that Disney will not carry over from the prequels. Either Luke will be smart enough to tell Rey that loving people is not evil, or Rey will tell him it's horseshit, and point out that Vader was redeemed by the love of his son, and Luke needs to stop sulking in Ireland and go back to help the sister who loves and needs him. 

 

As soon as Ren took off his mask, he just seemed like a petulant child to me.  I can't explain it, but the actor played it super emo when he wasn't wearing his mask.

 

 

I think that's exactly how it was meant to come across. He's introduced as a scary badass who invokes memories of Vader, but underneath it he's an angry little boy who thinks his parents didn't love him enough.  Meanwhile, you've got Rey and Finn who would kill to have parents like Han and Leia.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Danny Franks

[TattleTeeny]

I was pretty sure that Han was a goner, to be honest. I felt from the start that Harrison Ford would only commit to revisiting the character if they gave him a clear out. He wanted Han to die in ROTJ, and there was no way I could see him agreeing to be a significant part of a new trilogy. But also, Han is so strong a character that he has to be one of the focal points. And what this movie did well was transfer that focus to the newbies. It was time. Doesn't mean it didn't hurt, though. And Chewie's howl and immediate rampage mirrored my feelings personally. And in a pragmatic sense, now Han is gone, it gives room for Luke to be a bigger part of Episode VIII, while not taking time away from Rey, Finn or Poe.

 

Well said. And no good will ever come from a discussion on a railingless bridge over an abyss.

Still, I was all, "What?! Nooooooooooooo! Boo-hoo-hoo, my heart!" That man has been my celebrity BF since 1977. Poor, poor Chewie.

[DarkRaichu]

 

BTW just the very fact that force sensitivity is hereditary in this universe sort of makes the Jedi Celibacy rule a bit silly isn't it? Where exactly were they finding force sensitive people to train as Jedi if the ones they found couldn't have children?

 

 

According to both in canon cartoons (Clone Wars and SW Rebels), force sensitivity is NOT hereditary.  A baby can be born with force sensitivity from "normal" parents. It was kind of like being a mutant in X-Men universe.

[SNeaker]

I think of it as like wizards/witches in Harry Potter. Their children will have magical abilities (barring the occasional squib), but there are also plenty of Muggleborn witches and wizards born all the time.

 

Perhaps the old Jedi didn't know it could be hereditary, or perhaps they did and specifically tried to prevent too many from being created as it would be more difficult to train and control them and not let them fall to the Dark Side.

[MrsR]

Oh how I hated the Jedi council in PT. It was all their fault.

 

They have all this talent in Obi Wan and Anakin and they play the "you're not ready" and "it's too late for you to train" card.

 

Anakin's talent was just too great to ignore. Feckless motherf***ers they were.

 

And Qui-gon couldn't come up with the scratch to free one stinking slave?  That's cause these ass wipes were okay with the idea of slavery. Justice seekers, my aunt Beru!! 

 

PFFT!

 

So I saw this last night and had a great time. Had to go by myself, which sucked.

 

I agree with so much that has been said but I really feel strongly that Kylo needs to die very painfully. And at the hands of a Skywalker family member. No redemption arc for him, please. 

 

I never really liked Vader's redemption. That made the story about him and not Luke and the story should always have been about Luke. But that was a story written by a young man who probably thought redemption was really cool! I hope older more cynical heads prevail this time and squash evil under the boot of the authentically good.

 

A weird note, Domnhall Gleeson grabbed me really quickly. It took two scenes but then I realized he was channeling Tom Courtney in Dr, Zhivago as Strelnikov. Young, powerful and brittle. His very crisp speech patterns are a right on copy. Really good choice.

 

It would have to have been a complete botch job for me to have not loved it.

 

Or had Ewoks.

[Ronin Jackson]

According to both in canon cartoons (Clone Wars and SW Rebels), force sensitivity is NOT hereditary.  A baby can be born with force sensitivity from "normal" parents. It was kind of like being a mutant in X-Men universe.

 

Sweet! Maybe there's a canon happy meal flash card game from 1983 that trumps the whole "midichilorian" thing. :)

 

But seriously, if what happens in the actual films counts for anything, the hereditary nature of force sensitivity in the Skywalker family has been explicit. 

[TattleTeeny]

Oh how I hated the Jedi council in PT. It was all their fault.

 

Yesssssss! Such hypocrites!

[mmecorday]

I saw this movie on Friday and I'm still walking around saying, "It was so good...it was so good." What a relief! I had convinced myself that it was going to be "Attack of the Clones" level horrible, but I was pleasantly surprised. I also thought that I'd be so happy to see the trio of heroes from my childhood that I'd be resentful of the newcomers' time on the screen. Well, they were pretty terrific as well! Especially Daisy Ridley as Rey. What a find she is.

 

Halfway though I did, however, start to wonder where Luke was. Even though his time was limited, Mark Hamill did some of his best acting ever and he didn't even say a word. The way he looked at Rey ... his eyes held such sadness.

[DarkRaichu]

Or had Ewoks.

Let's see

1. Kylo Ren was used to destroy the area (and kill the inhabitants) to get what he wanted

2. Kylo Ren had Darth Vader's burned up helmet

3. Last time we saw the mask, it was during funeral pyre on the Moon of Endor

4. The Ewoks live on the Moon of Endor, presumably close by to the pyre

5. Draw your own conclusion

[absnow54]

Snoke is actually an evil Ewok with a Wizard of Oz machine?

[Danny Franks]

Let's see

1. Kylo Ren was used to destroy the area (and kill the inhabitants) to get what he wanted

2. Kylo Ren had Darth Vader's burned up helmet

3. Last time we saw the mask, it was during funeral pyre on the Moon of Endor

4. The Ewoks live on the Moon of Endor, presumably close by to the pyre

5. Draw your own conclusion

 

Kylo Ren loves the smell of burning fur in the morning? Hey, maybe there is room for redemption after all. Now, if we learn that he had to get something valuable from the Gungan city on Naboo, he'll be a legitimate anti-hero.

[ybrik]

Saw the movie again and still enjoyable. Went with my 65 year old father and he enjoyed it as well. He definitely liked it more than the prequels which he couldn't even remember watching.

 

The prequels didn't really do a good enough of a job admitting that Jedi's failure. I read the novel for ROTS and it does a good job showing that. It even has Yoda admitting that he failed the Jedi Order because he was still teaching the ways that helped them defeat the Sith a thousand years before instead of changing and growing like the Sith did. Also part of the reason they split Luke and Leia in the novel and put them into good family situations were so that they would be different than how previous generations of Jedi's were raised. Also the novel gets something right that always bothered me about ROTS which was in the final duel the movie has Obi Wan ignite his lightsaber first but the book has Anakin ignite his first. Han can shoot first but a Jedi should never start the fight.

[TVSpectator]

Kylo Ren loves the smell of burning fur in the morning? Hey, maybe there is room for redemption after all. Now, if we learn that he had to get something valuable from the Gungan city on Naboo, he'll be a legitimate anti-hero.

 

I can just picture it right now, Kylo Ren flying down onto Endor taking his "newly" trained stormtroopers (and one of them is Daniel Craig in a stormtrooper uniform) taking down all of the Ewoks, and then digging up the chard remains of Vader's helmet. Afterwards, he travels to  Gugan City to meet one of his grandfather's old acquaintance and takes out his lightsaber and then says, "oh Darth Jar Jar teach me the ways of the Dark Side". Then soon after his training is complete or nearing complete Kylo Ren murders Darth Jar Jar. 

[revbfc]

Saw the movie again and still enjoyable. Went with my 65 year old father and he enjoyed it as well. He definitely liked it more than the prequels which he couldn't even remember watching.

The prequels didn't really do a good enough of a job admitting that Jedi's failure. I read the novel for ROTS and it does a good job showing that. It even has Yoda admitting that he failed the Jedi Order because he was still teaching the ways that helped them defeat the Sith a thousand years before instead of changing and growing like the Sith did. Also part of the reason they split Luke and Leia in the novel and put them into good family situations were so that they would be different than how previous generations of Jedi's were raised. Also the novel gets something right that always bothered me about ROTS which was in the final duel the movie has Obi Wan ignite his lightsaber first but the book has Anakin ignite his first. Han can shoot first but a Jedi should never start the fight.

I always got the message that the Jedi were hindered by there own lumbering bureaucracy. For all the failings of the prequels, not giving us enough information about the decaying institutions of the republic is not among them.

[blackwing]

I was in Costco the other day and I was looking at the DK Publishing "The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary" and I could have sworn it says that Kylo Ren is 18 or 19 years old.

 

Star Wars has always had some improbable coincidences, going all the way back to the fact that the universe is extremely vast, which many star systems and planets, and that Luke and Leia are twins separated at birth by trillions of lightyears and yet they and their father all happen to end up together on the same space station.  I guess you could say the Force did it.

 

My question is... who exactly made that map to Luke?  Why was it in two pieces?  Someone cut out a piece and put it on a stick and Leia gave it to Poe Dameron to give to Max Von Sydow?  If it was Luke that made it, why would he do so if he didn't want to be found?  If it wasn't him, why wouldn't there have been more information?  Also, it seems like BB-8 had a middle part.  Or maybe he had the end.  Was the end point in R2 all along and R2 was just in a coma until BB-8 came along?  The whole business with the map just seemed so ridiculously rushed to me.  It was like JJ said "holy crap, we're already at 2 hours 13 minutes, let's wrap it all up faster than a hastily and conveniently resolved John Grisham novel".  We went from full map to Falcon leaving to Luke in 2 minutes.

 

I absolutely believe Rey is a Solo child. The flight skills, the Wookiee comprehension, the Force sensitivity. It all adds up. I think she was thought dead when Ren went off the rails and then ended up on Jakku. Neither parent mentions her or has been looking for her because they think she is dead.

If they had a dead daughter I would have thought there would have been a throwaway line when they were talking about Ben, such as "he's all that we have left after the accident [that claimed our daughter]" or something like that.  Leia should be well aware of the possibility for a parent to think their child is dead and then suddenly reappear as an adult.  If she was told 15 years ago that her daughter died, I think the pain and the hope would always still be there.  There would have been some recognition that Rey could be her daughter.  She looks very much like Padme, and hence, Leia, and Leia should have seen some resemblance to herself.

[Kromm]

I just got back from seeing The Force Awakens for the first time. These are my reactions...
 

If you're looking for or expecting an unqualified rave... then this is not the "review" you are looking for (pun intended).
 

But... similarly if you are looking for a pan... it won't be here either.
 

To establish my credentials, I am what most what probably call an OG Star Wars fan. I saw Star Wars the week it came out in the theaters. I was just a hair, just a smidgen too young for all of the surrounding memories to be clear. I couldn't describe the theater, or tell you the night of the week it was, or even for sure which members of my family were there with me, but the time between the lights going down for the movie to start and the ending credits are quite set in my memory. More than just the movie itself, I retain what the theater FELT like (even if I don't recall what theater it was), what the aura of the crowd was, the vibe coming off the screen, etc.

 

VERY darn clear is Empire. I can describe every last detail of seeing that on it's opening night.  What I was wearing. Who I was with. What the guy in front of us on the line SMELLED like (tobacco). What I had for lunch that day and a late dinner afterwards. All of it.

 

I prelude with all of this to establish how vested I am in Star Wars. But to give the flip side, I never went to a "convention". I had a few random Star Wars toys, but wasn't obsessive with them. I can't flip Star Wars trivia off the top of my head, although I'm sure I know more than I realize. I have read a good bunch of the Star Wars comics and books in print, but tended more towards liking the original Marvel Comics run, and the early simple Del Rey books rather than the whole overwrought Extended Universe (which I gave up on after a few years of trying with it). Ergo... I love Star Wars on a deep personal level, but don't feel obsessed in any way.

 

One thing I've done on purpose is stay away from all media (and this thread) because I didn't feel like fighting crowds over the weekend (how I've changed since Empire when I WANTED to). But I also didn't want other people's reactions to temper or affect mine. I did struggle over the 2D vs. 3D question. I wound up picking 2D... and while I realize that will mean there are things some people likely LOVED that I didn't see (by virtue of no 3D effects) it was on purpose. I may go back and re-see the movie in 3D.  But I wanted my first take to be a more honest one about the characters, the stories, and the more practical (non-3D effects), not how cool it was to see Tie-fighters flying towards my face. So first run, 2D it was.

 

Okay, so here's the meat. There were a ton of things I liked. A few I loved. A whole basket of stuff that bothered me--of two varieties--some that I know is informed by me no longer being a kid and taking things in differently, and some that I think are genuine mistakes in the film. And finally there is another pile of stuff that I suspect (without seeing reviews or other reactions) may have bothered the shit out of some people (particularly people without the emotional connection) but which I felt perfectly okay with shrugging off.

 

To start with a positive, and a big one, I LOVED the very ending. Adored it. I suspect there was a lot of screaming and yelling in some quarters--a "is this all we get!" reaction, and I say phooey. The way this played out (although I had some minor issues with the concept) this is the only way they could have ended it. I didn't WANT to hear Luke say a single word. And heck, I even realized I was okay with us not finding out the real truth about who and what Rey is. Theories are sure to be flying around... and that's great.

 

Gearing back a few scenes, there was the big event of the movie. A certain solo leading man biting it.  I have to say, I was unspoiled, but also was the essence of unsurprised.  Why? Not simply because it was logical from what came earlier in the movie about Kylo Ren, but also because if anyone has ever paid even the slightest attention to Harrison Ford and what he's said about Star Wars, I think in their gut they'd have known that the only way he'd be back is if his original condition in the first trilogy was fulfilled--that Han Solo bites it. It's not just urban legend that's what Ford wanted, and now he got his wish. So I was unsurprised, yes.  And given I knew it was coming about the only odd feelings I have about it are minor bits about how "convenient" a lot of what we saw happen was (how few of the bad guys were around, for example). More on that later, because it's a feeling I had about more than just that part of the film.

 

I even appreciated Leia reacting to Han's death. Because I felt we got short-shrifted of other mentions/implications that she's got Force capabilities too, and this was a subtle reminder.

 

I'm not done with my list of stuff I liked, but lets flip over to some stuff I didn't. I sat there, midway through the film, with what I'm sure from the outside was a quizzical look on my face trying to process a feeling. I had trouble processing this, but eventually worked through it. Although I liked a good deal of what I was seeing, something subtle about the feeling of the film, an intangible, felt wrong.  Was it pacing?  Was it dialogue? I had to puzzle through it.  Eventually I realized it was this: the original films had a kind of sparseness to them. It was most pronounced in the original film, and less in the later two, but even still compared to a lot of other films even they were sparse. What I mean by that is that there were a lot quiet moments bolstered by things to see, and maybe even hear, but without people talking. The soundtrack lifted up those moments and what it did in essence is made the whole thing feel both more epic, but also in a way contained. You had a lot of side characters, like Wedge Antilles or Admiral Ackbar, but notice that you have to go to the novelizations or EU books to really learn about those characters. And that WORKED for this universe. It made the films seem focused, never bloated. Wedge or Ackbar or Lobot or Tarkin might get lines, but they were really only REACTIVE lines to our protagonists. Again, that's not bad filmmaking or an oversight, it was GOOD filmmaking and focus.  I think JJ Abrams dropped the ball here. In this one, too many people got to talk. JJ is often a clever director, but he's rarely a very artistic one, and this sparseness is what I consider an artistic flourish. Hopefully the NEXT director in the franchise will get this better--stop having people TALK so damn much and just make it visual.

 

Don't mistake me. This didn't "ruin" or invalidate the film for me. It just left me with a bit of a "this could have been so much better" feeling--at least around the edges a bit.

 

Okay, that's the big mistake I think JJ made. That said I feel there are other things I didn't love that maybe are more about me no longer being a kid. Stuff that was cutesy in nature. For example, while I loved BB8 for the most part, he also felt a bit overused. The reason R2D2 resonated so well I think is because his cute factor was in measured doses. But there were FAR too many cut aways to BB8 doing something charming or cute for my adult mind. It needed to be 75%, or maybe even 50%.  Not him in less of the film mind you, because he was a McGuffin, but less cutaways to him beeping and booping in service of some bit of humor. My kid self would have loved every last second of it. My adult self, still was amused, but it wore thin when it happened too often.

 

Acting: This set of reactions runs the gamut. Let's call this The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

 

The Good: Daisy Ridley. She aced her part. I believed every last second, every frame. If she doesn't get stuck in the "Star Wars actor" trap of being typecast, her career is set. She was that good.

 

The Bad: Max Von Sydow. I know he's a venerable respected actor. Fuck that. I winced at his acting choice and thanked god he got off screen reasonably fast.

 

The Ugly: Sorry Andy Sirkis. I hated Snoke (and not in the way we were supposed to). Or maybe it's not fair to blame Andy, because it wasn't the voice that bothered me, it was the whole presentation of the villain. I'm still forming thoughts on this even still. I didn't buy Snoke and still don't know all of why. He felt unworthy as a big bad--too shoved in our faces too. And I got the closest I got in the film to a pit of the stomach Jar-Jar feeling with the CGI with Snoke. It just looked bad to me--even knowing it was supposed to be a bloody big hologram.

 

The Good: This rides on the tails of my negative comments about Snoke. I compare it to Maz--where I loved every piece of it stem to stern. The acting, the CGI, the presentation. All of it. Love love love.

 

The Bad: I suppose I could get shot by anyone who loved him, but I think Oscar Isaac was terrible. Not quite bad enough for the "ugly" category, but pretty damn bad. It just felt like this fake swagger and unearned bravado with no emotional connection behind it.

 

The Ugly: Not that they did anything particularly to offend in their cameos, but the sight of Greg Gunberg and Judah Frielander was SO distracting to me. I recognized them as themselves, as JJ's buddies getting cameos, and it felt dishonest on some level.

 

The rest of the cast? I thought John Boyega did well--I had some real problems with how his character's motivations were laid out, but his acting was more than acceptable. Adam Driver? His role could have been a disaster, because there are certain things about the IDEA of it I don't know if I agree with, but I thought both IN mask and OUT of it he acted a difficult part reasonably well. Domhnall Gleeson as this film's Tarkin equivalent was just... there. Maybe that's just as well. Tarkin didn't make a big emotional impression either. The classic actors (Fisher, Ford, Mayhew under a lot of hair, Daniels with his closely controlled set of lines that I'm sure he bitterly resented not getting more of) all did what they needed to. Nobody tanked it. Ford and Fisher clearly had the heavy load, and I think what they did was servicable given that some of their reactions were creaky in the script. And I didn't mention Hamill, of course, because of how little he's in it. But him not speaking in his one scene means he had a brief but intense bit of "face acting" and I think he aced that bit, as tiny as it was.

 

Onwards... there's another category of things I had mixed reactions to. I call them "Convenience, Yay!" moments. Some of this also falls under the category of things I'm SURE wouldn't have bothered me as a kid. Others I just KNOW are pissing off some modern viewers and I'm perfectly okay with them.

 

For example, I am dead certain there somewhere are howls about how the First Order is supposed to be so big (thus the big matte painting shot/CGI of all the stormtroopers) and yet when our heroes run through their ships and bases all we see are one or two Stormtroopers at a time, in small tight corridors usually.  But this didn't bother me much. Why? I guess it's just a Star Wars tradition/convention I have in my brain from the original film. The corridors are tight. There are huge bases and ships, so Troopers are spread out. I know the First Order (and the Empire before them) should have better "command and control" of their soldiers, but... we just accept it.

 

That said, the flip side of that which I hated was how all of a sudden ahead of our heroes, everyone in the galaxy seemed to know about the missing droid and who had it. That just felt sloppy (so let's call it "Convenience Boo!"). Then again so did The Falcon being able to evade a Star Destroyer without leaving the Jakku system. TOO convenient.

 

Actually a lot of my oopsie feelings were over how bumbling the First Order seemed in some ways. Kylo Ren in particular had a lot of clownish seeming performance. Even if I think the actor did okay, the actual character himself didn't. This is part of the problem with "too much talk". The mystery goes out of a character, and then the close escapes of our heroes doesn't feel like magic--it feels like someone else's incompetence. And then we get Ren barely seeming respected by the General character. Not being that good at torture (I mean he got his info, but MAN it felt like there had to be a lot of talking first). And fighting with someone who only had Stormtrooper training and actually being held off by the guy for a surprisingly long time. My vague feeling here is that the writers (or JJ with directing flourishes) totally screwed over making Ren feel like a threat because they also wanted to prop up Poe and Finn as heroes. They were so afraid of not giving those guys "moments" that in return Ren wound up feeling bumbling. And pawning it off on conflicted inner feelings doesn't work for me. Ren was too unsupervised by his distant "boss" for that to really fly. He was SUPPOSED to be a threat. He just didn't feel like it.

 

One last of the "Convenience Boo!" things.  This one goes on the sub-category of ones that wouldn't have bothered me as a kid. The Chasm. We have this big fight between Rey and Ren and it gets to a point where the movie needs to break them apart, to "save" both actors for the next movie. The planet is blowing up and... a big honking chasm opens between the two of them... leaving both of them magically safe (for their escapes). My kid self would have shrugged this off. My current self? Rolled my eyes a bit. There HAD to be a less contrived way to the same end.

 

I AM excited where they left off though, as I said. I WILL enjoy this movie again and all told thought it was infinitely better than the prequels. I'm just looking forward to a more artistically savvy director than JJ Abrams being in charge. Yay!!!  And may the force be with my aching hands from TYPING SO DAMN MUCH NOW!!!  This is gonna be a LONG ass post.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Kromm

[calliope1975]

Okay. here's another reason for me to complain, which admittedly it took me a a while to remember because they were so fleeting, but why were Iko Uwais and Yayan Ruhian in this movie? I mean they aren't in makeup or stormtrooper gear, it's not motion capture.... we see them and recognize them (for those of us who know who they are, and if you aren't hip, just watch the The Raid series. Trust me on this, watch it.) If we get to see them and get excited about them being in the movie, how is it that they don't even get to do some good old fashioned inter-galactic ass kickin'? Rian Johnson, paging Rian Johnson... right that wrong. But hell their characters can have no more involvement in the story, unless they are after Chewbacca to settle the debt. It seems like they had a scene cut. Otherwise it's baffling they were in it at all.

 

My two complaints were not letting John Boyega use his natural voice/accent, and hiring The Raid guys and not letting them fight. As soon as they showed up, I was all - oooo, it's on now! And then it was not on. They were glorified extras. Bummer since I wanted more people to see how awesome they are. 

 

I saw it for the second time earlier today and loved it just as much. I got way more emotional this time, probably because the first time I was trying to anticipate what would happen, and this time I just let myself enjoy it and got swept up in the story and characters. 

 

 

As soon as Ren took off his mask, he just seemed like a petulant child to me.  I can't explain it, but the actor played it super emo when he wasn't wearing his mask.

 

The Emo Kylo Ren Twitter account is everything I never knew I wanted: https://twitter.com/kylor3n

[anna0852]

 

If they had a dead daughter I would have thought there would have been a throwaway line when they were talking about Ben, such as "he's all that we have left after the accident [that claimed our daughter]" or something like that.  Leia should be well aware of the possibility for a parent to think their child is dead and then suddenly reappear as an adult.  If she was told 15 years ago that her daughter died, I think the pain and the hope would always still be there.  There would have been some recognition that Rey could be her daughter.  She looks very much like Padme, and hence, Leia, and Leia should have seen some resemblance to herself.

I don't know. If you think your child is dead at the hand of the other, can you really bring yourself to mention it? Especially to the other parent who has written off the killer and from whom you are now estranged? If if you believe your child is dead at a young age, are you going to look at an adult and somehow recognize them? My mother mixes up picture of my sister and I all the time from when we were young. Faces change between childhood and adulthood.

 

Does Leia know what Padme looks like? Do she and Luke even know who Padme is?  Who is left to tell them? Vader, Kenobi, Yoda and Bail Organa are all dead. It was kept secret that Leia and Luke were even born alive. The rest of the galaxy though Padme was still pregnant when she died. 

[Spartan Girl]

Honestly I'm god that Han and Leia named their kid Ben and not Anakin. If Ben hadn't hired Han to take him and Luke, they never would have met. So it's a fitting tribute.

And while Leia obviously had to come to peace with Vader being her father, I really don't think she would have had the stomach to name her child after the man that tortured her and made her watch as the Death Star blew up Alderaan.

[Danny Franks]

My two complaints were not letting John Boyega use his natural voice/accent, and hiring The Raid guys and not letting them fight. As soon as they showed up, I was all - oooo, it's on now! And then it was not on. They were glorified extras. Bummer since I wanted more people to see how awesome they are. 

 

I have to say I'm glad there was no fight scene there. Because I didn't come to this movie to see some action/martial arts/choreography guys leaping about the screen, letting me know they made some movie a couple of years ago. I can't imagine how annoying I would have found it if random aliens suddenly made the movie all about them for a few minutes.

 

I imagine they were in the movie because they're Star Wars fans, in which case they should be happy with what they got. Like Heroes guy and Carrie Fisher's daughter.

 

My vague feeling here is that the writers (or JJ with directing flourishes) totally screwed over making Ren feel like a threat because they also wanted to prop up Poe and Finn as heroes. They were so afraid of not giving those guys "moments" that in return Ren wound up feeling bumbling. And pawning it off on conflicted inner feelings doesn't work for me. Ren was too unsupervised by his distant "boss" for that to really fly. He was SUPPOSED to be a threat. He just didn't feel like it.

 

 

I have to disagree. Ren came across as bumbling and weak at times because he was supposed to. He's an ill-tempered, half-trained child who has been unleashed with the full power of the First Order and the Dark Side behind him. That's what's scary about him, in my view. Abrams didn't include two scenes of him acting like the angriest toddler in the world for no reason, and he didn't show the Stormtroopers reacting to it just for laughs. This is who Kylo Ren is, when we meet him. He and Snoke even say it themselves. He isn't yet the villain that they want him to be, unlike Vader who was fully formed from the moment we met him, and never changed until the very end. Kylo Ren has his own arc, and we saw him embarking on that in this movie. He makes mistakes, just like any hero does, and he gets his ass kicked because he's arrogant and ruled by anger.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Danny Franks

[calliope1975]

I have to say I'm glad there was no fight scene there. Because I didn't come to this movie to see some action/martial arts/choreography guys leaping about the screen, letting me know they made some movie a couple of years ago. I can't imagine how annoying I would have found it if random Asian aliens suddenly made the movie all about them for a few minutes.

 

I imagine they were in the movie because they're Star Wars fans, in which case they should be happy with what they got. Like Heroes guy and Carrie Fisher's daughter.

 

I agree, after seeing the tone and style of the movie, that their fighting style would have been out of place, but I, at first, expected it because their castings were announced and publicized. I would have rather they been nice little surprise cameos like Greg Grunberg or Ken Leung. Ah well, there's always The Raid 3. 

[Morrigan2575]

I have no idea who these Raid guys are, never even heard the announcement. The only thing I heard was about Simon Pegg and I think Benedict Cumberbatch? I still have no idea if they appeared or as what.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the Heroes guy in the movie, had no idea he got a small part in the movie. No idea who Ken Leung is either but he looked familiar must have been from the X-Men movie. I gather JJ Abrams gave cameos to people he's worked with that are huge Star wars fans. You used to get the same thing in the old Star Trek movies. The thing is, I'm fine with cameos as long as the fit the story not the other way around.

[SeanC]

I was pleasantly surprised to see the Heroes guy in the movie, had no idea he got a small part in the movie. 

Greg Grunberg appears in basically everything J.J. Abrams does.

[Kromm]

I have to disagree. Ren came across as bumbling and weak at times because he was supposed to. He's an ill-tempered, half-trained child who has been unleashed with the full power of the First Order and the Dark Side behind him. That's what's scary about him, in my view. Abrams didn't include two scenes of him acting like the angriest toddler in the world for no reason, and he didn't show the Stormtroopers reacting to it just for laughs. This is who Kylo Ren is, when we meet him. He and Snoke even say it themselves. He isn't yet the villain that they want him to be, unlike Vader who was fully formed from the moment we met him, and never changed until the very end. Kylo Ren has his own arc, and we saw him embarking on that in this movie. He makes mistakes, just like any hero does, and he gets his ass kicked because he's arrogant and ruled by anger.

It wasn't just Ren who felt incompetent though. All of the First Order people we saw did, to some extent. Yes we saw them destroy a lot more planets than the Empire did, with a much bigger gun, and as I implied in my gigantor post above, I'm used to the idea of the Star Wars stories focusing on small numbers of people in a battle and a lot of coincidence in who is near what and when. But there was some disconnect there. It was pretty loosey goosey with people getting into and out of their bases and ships. And getting BACK to Ren, while I understand the concept of him acting like a petulant child, there's a disconnect with how much authority he actually seemed to have. Plus, Vadar worked because he was an enigma--even when stuff got revealed about him. It felt... cheaper... in a way to have all this stuff spilled about our antagonist. The reveals should have been less overt, and we should have seen a LOT less about how Ren actually did his work. There was no need to see his discussion with Poe. It felt like it was just there to pad Oscar Isaac's screentime, when in fact a bit more mystery there would have served better.  In the style of the original film we would have seen a shot of Poe held down, our baddie walk in, a door close, then screaming. The whole scene. No banter back and forth. Preserving an aura around our baddie. In a way it's why the "I am your father" moment in Empire worked so well. Because Vadar was a dark enigma. The very idea was frightening to Luke. Now you can't repeat that exactly, but even with Han and Leia's son, the moment for the humanity to come out was when REY showed up and he took his helmet off. Every long conversation we heard from Ren before that was hurting that reveal, not helping it. 

 

I may like that bit more in a few years, but right now it feels like it diminished things a bit. Ren could have been done much better (and Poe was just annoying to). It made me appreciate everything with Rey so much more, because that was all letter perfect.  From her lonely life on Jakku, to her interactions with Han, her reactions to other planets and people. All of it. So I'm far from down on everything here. In fact, not that it's the same thing, but I'm starting to think the mysteriousness of Rey, while not the same thing as the mysteriousness of a baddie like Vadar, has it's own appeal. Implication works so much better than saying things sometimes, and so much with Rey was implied rather than said.

[Danny Franks]

Greg Grunberg appears in basically everything J.J. Abrams does.

There are a few directors who do that. Sam Raimi shoehorns Bruce Campbell into all his movies, Tarantino and Kevin Smith use the same actors a lot, as does Scorsese.

I don't remember seeing Grunberg in Super 8 or either Star Trek movies, though. If he was, the roles were low key or forgettable enough that I've... well... forgotten them.