Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[anna0852]

I don't think the strong attachment itself was what would turn a Jedi to evil, it that the relationship provided the openings for anger and fear and hatred, the emotions that would prompt a turn. In a clinical sense I can understand the Jedi taking the 'stay solitary' approach as a way to eliminate or at least reduce the risk of someone flying off the rails because, oh say, their parent was in danger.  Or having visions of their wife dying.

 

I can see how the theory at least is that this will ensure that Jedi make choice with their heads and not their hearts.

 

On a human level though it's a terrible approach to take.

[Perfect Xero]

I don't recall that distinction ever being made in the movies.  Regardless, the point remains: romantic attachment is something all Jedi are supposed to avoid lest it turn them evil, whereas that is not something non-Jedi have to do.

 

It was something Lucas clarified in an interview (and in one of the Attack of the Clones commentaries, IIRC).

 

 

But Lucas revealed that despite their monastic regime, Jedi were permitted to have sex.

 

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."

[SeanC]

I don't think the strong attachment itself was what would turn a Jedi to evil, it that the relationship provided the openings for anger and fear and hatred, the emotions that would prompt a turn. 

Yeah, I get that, but the idea that those emotions seem to more or less invariably lead you to the Dark Side is still a completely different moral schematic than we've seen for people who aren't Force-sensitive.  The whole climax of ROTJ hinges on the idea that if Luke acts on hate toward Vader (or the Emperor) he will turn evil and thus the Emperor wins.

[Eegah]

 

Fandom loves its emo white boy villains that they can woobify. Just look at, I don't know, fan reactions to Draco or Snape from Harry Potter, or Loki from the MCU.

 

Or perhaps a more apt MCU character, Grant Ward. Ren actually resembles him quite a bit with his insane twisting of the facts to think of himself as the hero of his own story, and deliberately forcing himself past the Moral Event Horizon so he can have the comfort of choosing a side. I was very impressed with AoS for its refusal to ever seriously present Ward as capable of being redeemed despite all the fanboys pissing and moaning about it, and I really hope the same thing happens here. It is all Disney, after all.

[benteen]

I remember reading that quote from GL that Jedi could have sex but not relationships.  So basically you're allowed to drink the milk as long as you don't buy the cow?  Isn't that a situation rife with complications for Jedi?

[Ravenya003]

And yes, he was offering to train Rey at the end, which is hilarious considering he's still training and clearly doesn't have the patience to be a mentor.

 

 

Thanks for answering. I thought that was a bit ridiculous too, him implying that he would train her even though he wasn't fully trained himself.

 

 

 

I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that Kylo was talking about Snoke being her teacher - didn't the Big Guy instruct Kylo to bring the girl to him? (Or am I getting him mixed up with the Emperor/Luke in Empire Strikes Back which I just watched yesterday?) In any case, Kylo said: "you need a teacher" - not that he would be the teacher.

[Perfect Xero]

I remember reading that quote from GL that Jedi could have sex but not relationships.  So basically you're allowed to drink the milk as long as you don't buy the cow?  Isn't that a situation rife with complications for Jedi?

 

It probably would be. Of course there's a reason that they thought Anakin was too old to train at 8 years old.

[HeySandyStrange]

 

I'm curious about Leia's relationship with Ben/Ren. Ren banged on and on and on...and on...and on...about how his dad sucked, how much he hated his dad, whatever, but he didn't say one word about his mom at all. I know this is Star Wars and the movies have always been about daddy issues, but I still found Ren's total omission of mentioning Leia to be weird. I'm hoping it's significant and the next movie delves into this a bit more.

 

My guess is that in the next movie we find out that Kylo Ren is a big, ol', emo mama's boy. It would make sense, if you presume that force-sensitive Ben spent more time with his force-sensitive mom rather then his flighty dad when Han was out bumming around the universe. Not to mention that Leia seems to have blinders on in regards to her son, another indication that they where perhaps very close.  I suspect Kylo Ren's next big test of evil will involve Snoke suggesting he deal with Leia like he did Han and it will be interesting to see how he does/does not struggle with that task.

 

 

Or perhaps a more apt MCU character, Grant Ward. Ren actually resembles him quite a bit with his insane twisting of the facts to think of himself as the hero of his own story, and deliberately forcing himself past the Moral Event Horizon so he can have the comfort of choosing a side

 

Adam Driver did say in an interview that he didn't see his character as evil but rather a "religious fanatic" type he believed he was the hero of the story. That wasn't too evident in The Force Awakens, but hopefully they will flesh out that part of his ideology in the next movie. At the moment it seems more like Kylo was acting  in petulant self-interest more then anything.

[benteen]

Han didn't start going about the universe again until after Ben turned to the dark side.

[Zuleikha]

Not to mention that Leia seems to have blinders on in regards to her son, another indication that they where perhaps very close.

I don't think she had blinders on. She felt the light still within him with the Force, the way that Luke did with Darth Vader. And it's canon that Kylo was struggling with the pull to the light side.

 

Adam Driver did say in an interview that he didn't see his character as evil but rather a "religious fanatic" type he believed he was the hero of the story. That wasn't too evident in The Force Awakens, but hopefully they will flesh out that part of his ideology in the next movie.

I got that the second time I watched, but what I don't understand still is what he and Hux believe the First Order to be/the Empire was. Why do they believe in Snoke and the First Order so strongly?

 

It does make the Phasma lowering the shields feel even more like contrivance writing. All of the higher ups do seem to be fanatics. Why wouldn't Phasma die to protect the First Order? She seems like a true believer. I think the shield lowering bit would have worked better if they hadn't gone for the cheap bit with Finn being assigned to Sanitation and instead had him be Electrical Repair or something where he could plausibly know a way to disable the shields. But maybe there will be some kind of reveal that Phasma's a mercenary with no real beliefs in the First Order.

[MrsR]

I see Phasma as the character Donald Johnson in the original Robocop series.

 

He's the Afro-American middle manager who goes along to get along. He's invested in the corporation and implements their evil doings but isn't high enough to make decisions or to take the blame or so dedicated that he would put himself at risk. He's the one character who makes it all the way through all the shenanigans.

 

The New Order has kind of a corporate feel to it. Two vice presidents vying for approval of the CEO with subordinates who manage the staff.

Edited January 4, 2016 by MrsR

[HeySandyStrange]

Han didn't start going about the universe again until after Ben turned to the dark side.

 

True, but I could still see Han going on "extended" journeys with Chewie whenever he fought with Leia too much or family life overwhelmed him. He definitely loved his family but I think he always was a restless sort and maybe had a hard time truly "getting" his son imo.

 

 

I don't think she had blinders on. She felt the light still within him with the Force, the way that Luke did with Darth Vader. And it's canon that Kylo was struggling with the pull to the light side

 

Again, jmo, but between Han and Leia it seemed that Leia was way more optimistic over her son's potential to choose the light over the darkness. Which could speak of her, outside her force-sensitivity, being a desperate mother who wants to believe that her son is a better person then he really is (very understandable, poor Leia).

 

 

I see Phantasma as the character Donald Johnson in the original Robocop series.

 

He's the Afro-American middle manager who goes along to get along. He's invested in the corporation and implements their evil doings but isn't high enough to make decisions or to take the blame.. He's the one character who makes it all the way through all the shenanigans.

 

Makes sense in regards to Phasma/most of the stormtroopers. I think Phasma's actions indicate she is as much a survivor as anything. The New Order could be a case of the people at the top thinking they have complete control of the underlings but maybe not so much. Maybe even the underlings are not all that fanatical as the top dogs but basically have a decent standard of living and being that it is all they know, don't want to rock the boat, which would extend the Nazi parallels.

[DollEyes]

  As someone who has seen both The Empire Strikes Back  & Return Of the Jedi, I already know about what Lando did and how the Empire in general and Vader in particular double-crossed him. Lando wasn't even remotely as bad as Jabba & Palpatine, but he did betray Han, though not by choice. Lando earned his redemption honestly without being woobified in record time ala Kylo Ren by a part of the fandom who either trivializes or ignores Ren's atrocities just because of his looks. IMO Lando's willingness to defy the Empire to save Han, Leia, Chewie and everyone else in "Cloud City" (as C-3PO called it in ROtJ) and Lando's joining the Resistance and helping to destroy the Death Star-in the Millenium Falcon-was redemption, the way I saw it.

 

Switching topics here, but every time someone says Rey "friendzoned" Finn I want to punch something.

 

  Every time I hear nonsensical terms like "rape-y" or "mind-rape" I want to do the same thing because they trivialize the very real crime of rape.

 

 I respectfully disagree. Since Kylo imprisoned and mentally tortured Rey against her will, I think that "mind-rape" is the perfect description. The way I see it, both physical and mental rape are about one person trying to control/degrade another, which was what Ren mentally tried to do to Rey and if he hadn't had other First Order business to attend to, I wouldn't have put sexual assault past him, cousin or not, the patricidal little shit. As far as I'm concerned, calling Ren's treatment of his then-captive Rey "mind-rape" no more trivializes rape than "killing time" trivializes murder.

 

 

I also thought the Ren/Rey...interactions were intriguing, in that he seemed lonely and drawn to her and twisted and sadistic at the same time. It was also poigniant when he called Finn a traitor, because that's exactly what HE was.

 

  Again respectfully disagreeing. Kylo Ren's problems are his own fault, not Finn's, not Rey's and certainly not his parents', who may not have been "perfect," but I believe raised him to know much better than to be conned by Snoke & Hux. As for Ren's calling Finn a "traitor," at least Finn didn't choose the Dark Side; it chose him. Finn could have stayed a Stormtrooper for the rest of his life, but he chose to think for/free himself instead. I stopped giving a shit about Ren's hurt feelings when he held Rey prisoner and his plunging his lightsaber into Han's heart when he was unarmed and trying to save him was the final nail in the coffin for me. Betrayal is the least of what Ren deserves, as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 It does seem like we need a few happier, not endings, burt middles. Maybe Lando is a planetary governor somewhere, living happy and successful funneling money and information to the resistance. And maybe Wedge is an admiral, commanding another portion of the fleet. Part of me expects Poe Dameron to be his relative.

 

  Those not only sound like great ideas to me, I would love to see both Billy Dee Williams and Denis Lawson in future sequels, if Williams' health permits, that is.

[benteen]

Don't count on Denis Lawson showing up.  He said that he was offered a chance in 2014 to reprise his role as Wedge but turned it down, saying Star Wars never interested him.  That's been a comment he's made in the past too.  My guess is that Wedge would have popped up as part of Leia's Resistance hierarchy, like Admiral Ackbar.

 

I think Billy Dee would definitely come back if he's able to do it.  He's reprised his role on two episodes of the Star Wars Rebels animated series already.

 

I always understood Lando's reasons for betraying Han.  He had an entire population to protect.  His first duty was to them, not an old smuggling friend he hadn't seen in years.  Lando made up for it in short order though.

Edited January 5, 2016 by benteen

[SeanC]

I remember reading that quote from GL that Jedi could have sex but not relationships. So basically you're allowed to drink the milk as long as you don't buy the cow? Isn't that a situation rife with complications for Jedi?

It turns out that the ideal Jedi are the bros from Entourage.

[kili]

As for Ren's calling Finn a "traitor," at least Finn didn't choose the Dark Side; it chose him.

 

If you are kidnapped as a child and brainwashed, you'll get a free pass from me if you take the first opportunity to escape. Finn is not a traitor, but to a fanatical sycophant like Ren, I can see him labeling Finn as such.

 

if they hadn't gone for the cheap bit with Finn being assigned to Sanitation

 

If they want to retcon that in the next movie and say he was just joking about Sanitation, I'll happily buy it. Why would they kidnap kids, train them to be that good at shooting and then put them in charge of mopping up the restrooms? Sanitation seems like a perfect job for a bunch of low-level droids with a few C3P0 type droids doing supervision. And then you send the Sanitation guy on an important mission to recover a map to find a guy your boss urgently wants to kill? That makes no sense.

 

Unless Sanitation is code word for Special Ops and cleaning up means to slaughter villages.

[Athena]

I thought the Sanitation thing was that a trainee or starter troopers end up in various duties including Sanitation (which could be anywhere from cleaning to directing droids etc). He may have been punished once before and was shunted to Sanitation duty. Since that time, he was probably stationed elsewhere to train pre-map mission.

[SmithW6079]

I see Phasma as the character Donald Johnson in the original Robocop series.

 

He's the Afro-American middle manager who goes along to get along. He's invested in the corporation and implements their evil doings but isn't high enough to make decisions or to take the blame or so dedicated that he would put himself at risk. He's the one character who makes it all the way through all the shenanigans.

 

The New Order has kind of a corporate feel to it. Two vice presidents vying for approval of the CEO with subordinates who manage the staff.

Shh... Don't give any jargony business writers ideas about "Is Your Company Like 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens'? Here's How to Fix It in 6 Easy Steps."

[Skyline]

Watched the movie again. Unfortunately at a theater that hadn't been recently renovated so seating not as good but did have more of a selection on the 3D glasses so now I have the BB8 and Kylo Ren glasses.

 

Something I did notice this time watching the movie is how Rey always seemed to breathe/calm herself first when Ren tries to get the info out of her and then when she does the mind trick on the trooper. I wonder if this is just based on what Maz said about letting the force in or could this be a hint that maybe she had some kind of training that she may not have remembered but just called up on instinct. Of course it could be just something she picked up in difficult situations as a scavenger.

 

I do wonder how old Ben/Ren was when they sent him to train with Luke? It sounded like he had been having problems already and that was when they decided to send him to Luke.

 

I am enjoying how creative people are getting with the EmoRen twitter and LonelyLuke twitter. Also on tumblr saw a post where they had a red carpet picture of Adam Driver looking down at BB8 and BB8 looking up at him and then they have close ups of their faces with the caption of BB8- I know what you did to Poe you Emo fuck.

 

The Adam Driver vs. BB8 meme is hysterical. 

[Zuleikha]

My guess is that Wedge would have popped up as part of Leia's Resistance hierarchy, like Admiral Ackbar.

I read somewhere that had the actor been interested, Wedge would have been in the Lor San Tekka role. I can't remember where I read that, though, so I don't know if it was a reliable source or not. It makes sense to me, though. 

 

There's absolutely no way Kylo - a boy who was born with every possible advantage - can look sympathetic or redeemable in the same universe where child soldiers can take a stand against their enslavers.

One child soldier. Just Finn. Which makes Finn that much more impressive, IMHO. 

 

I'm holding out judgement on Kylo's redemption possibilities until we know more about why he went to the Dark Side in the first place. We don't know what Snoke did to win him. Maybe some form of mental conditioning was involved. Ordinarily, I would hope not because I don't think it's necessary and I think the story of Kylo Ren just falling due to his own failings is compelling, but I'm still in the not-wanting-Han-and-Leia's-child to be irredeemably evil boat. But if Rey is their daughter, I am so on board for Kylo Ren just spiraling further and further until Rey kills him.

[VCRTracking]

It does make the Phasma lowering the shields feel even more like contrivance writing. All of the higher ups do seem to be fanatics. Why wouldn't Phasma die to protect the First Order? She seems like a true believer. I think the shield lowering bit would have worked better if they hadn't gone for the cheap bit with Finn being assigned to Sanitation and instead had him be Electrical Repair or something where he could plausibly know a way to disable the shields. But maybe there will be some kind of reveal that Phasma's a mercenary with no real beliefs in the First Order.

 

There's a moment in the James Bond movie Goldfinger where supervillain Goldfinger's plan is to detonate a nuclear device inside the underground gold vaults at Fort Knox, contaminating the US's gold supply so it would drive up the value of his own private gold stock. The US army attacks and Goldfinger closes and locks the vault door even though two of his own loyal henchmen Oddjob and Kisch are still inside with the bomb that's about to detonate. Kisch is like "Oh shit!" and goes to defuse the bomb which is down below on the vault  floor four stories below, but Oddjob, Goldfinger's mute behemoth manservant tries to stop him. Kisch yells "Don't be a fool! You can be a hero! I'm not!" and Oddjob grabs and throws him over a railing four stories to his death. One henchman was only loyal up to a point while the other was willing to die for his master.

Edited January 4, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

It still doesn't make sense to assign anybody to sanitation in a world where droids are mass produced.

 

It doesn't make sense to waste resources on droids when you literally have free slave labor to do those tasks.

 

Also, the First Order probably views it as part of their training and a way to make going out and risking your life as a stormtrooper look like an attractive goal over a life of menial labor.

[blueray]

I read somewhere that had the actor been interested, Wedge would have been in the Lor San Tekka role. I can't remember where I read that, though, so I don't know if it was a reliable source or not. It makes sense to me, though. 

 

 

 

One child soldier. Just Finn. Which makes Finn that much more impressive, IMHO. 

 

I'm holding out judgement on Kylo's redemption possibilities until we know more about why he went to the Dark Side in the first place. We don't know what Snoke did to win him. Maybe some form of mental conditioning was involved. Ordinarily, I would hope not because I don't think it's necessary and I think the story of Kylo Ren just falling due to his own failings is compelling, but I'm still in the not-wanting-Han-and-Leia's-child to be irredeemably evil boat. But if Rey is their daughter, I am so on board for Kylo Ren just spiraling further and further until Rey kills him.

 

I can't really see how he can be redeemed when he killed Han (his father), especially by fans. But there are the other movies for that I guess.

[stealinghome]

Adam Driver did say in an interview that he didn't see his character as evil but rather a "religious fanatic" type he believed he was the hero of the story. That wasn't too evident in The Force Awakens, but hopefully they will flesh out that part of his ideology in the next movie. At the moment it seems more like Kylo was acting  in petulant self-interest more then anything.

That's the sob story of every villain ever, though. "Everyone else is evil, it's ME who is good! Really!" That doesn't make Ren at all unique. It just makes him every other emo white boy villain ever.

 

Also, the First Order probably views it as part of their training and a way to make going out and risking your life as a stormtrooper look like an attractive goal over a life of menial labor.

I think it's probably about conditioning on a larger scale, too. Breaking down individuality and learning to see yourself as part of a collective/just to follow orders. Doing menial tasks with fellow soldiers fits the bill perfectly.

Edited January 4, 2016 by stealinghome

[kili]

It doesn't make sense to waste resources on droids when you literally have free slave labor to do those tasks.

 

That labour isn't free. Even the effort to kidnap small children costs money (presumably, whoever you steal the children from try to put up some kind of fight or need to be controlled in some manner). Then you have to raise them which is a huge economic cost until they become useful (feeding and medical care so your investment doesn't die). These slaves also had to be brainwashed which requires a program and either droids or people to implement it. Finally, Finn was trained to be an excellent shot and given a storm trooper uniform.  That seems like a lot of effort to go to for a drudge.

 

It quickly becomes more cost effective to have a droid do the work. I can buy a vacuum cleaner droid now for $200. I imagine they have better and cheaper options. And the vacuum cleaner droid is unlikely to try to run away or shoot you in the head or help valuable prisoners escape or destroy your death star (unless it is R2-D2).

[Perfect Xero]

That labour isn't free. Even the effort to kidnap small children costs money (presumably, whoever you steal the children from try to put up some kind of fight or need to be controlled in some manner). Then you have to raise them which is a huge economic cost until they become useful (feeding and medical care so your investment doesn't die). These slaves also had to be brainwashed which requires a program and either droids or people to implement it. Finally, Finn was trained to be an excellent shot and given a storm trooper uniform.  That seems like a lot of effort to go to for a drudge.

 

It quickly becomes more cost effective to have a droid do the work. I can buy a vacuum cleaner droid now for $200. I imagine they have better and cheaper options. And the vacuum cleaner droid is unlikely to try to run away or shoot you in the head or help valuable prisoners escape or destroy your death star (unless it is R2-D2).

 

But they're kidnapping and raising those slaves for their army anyway. And again, being forced to perform undesirable, tedious tasks is almost certainly part of their training/indoctrination. There's only so many hours of the day that you can put a child through actual combat training without them burning out, so you need other things for them to do to keep them occupied the rest of the day when they're not eating or sleeping. The last thing that you want is a bunch of teenage slaves having time to sit around and talk and think about why they're doing what they're doing. They need something useful for them to do before they're actually old/trained enough to send out in to the field, it forces them to work as a group, accomplish tasks that they otherwise wouldn't want to perform, pay attention to detail, and do a through job.

[Ravenya003]

 

If they want to retcon that in the next movie and say he was just joking about Sanitation, I'll happily buy it. Why would they kidnap kids, train them to be that good at shooting and then put them in charge of mopping up the restrooms? Sanitation seems like a perfect job for a bunch of low-level droids with a few C3P0 type droids doing supervision.

 

This reminds me of the young ISIS recruit who ditched them because they made him clean the toilets. 

 

Since Kylo imprisoned and mentally tortured Rey against her will, I think that "mind-rape" is the perfect description. The way I see it, both physical and mental rape are about one person trying to control/degrade another, which was what Ren mentally tried to do to Rey and if he hadn't had other First Order business to attend to, I wouldn't have put sexual assault past him, cousin or not, the patricidal little shit. As far as I'm concerned, calling Ren's treatment of his then-captive Rey "mind-rape" no more trivializes rape than "killing time" trivializes murder.

 

 

 

Also, Mind Rape is the widely recognized name of a trope. There's room to argue it should be renamed to distance it from sexual assault, but in the meantime people are simply referring to a specific narrative device when they use the term.

 

Edit: Regarding Lando - it would be fantastic to see Billy Dee Williams again, and I REFUSE to believe that he wouldn't sign on in a second given how he's lent his voice to variations of the character in everything from Robot Chicken to The Lego Movie. But here's another possibility: Gugu Mbatha-Raw is apparently signed up for the next film. I hate to fall into the old cliche of suggesting two featured POC of the franchise might be related, but at the same time I think it would be awesome if she ends up being Lando's daughter. 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Ravenya003

[Danny Franks]

Just seen it for the second time tonight. Possibly more enjoyable, because I could anticipate all the great moments and really enjoy them. The bit where Luke's lightsaber flies into Rey's hand as the Luke Theme plays brought a lump to my throat.

Rey is such a strong heroine in this movie. I'm reminded of something I read in a review the other day, where the reviewer said that they were moved to think about just how important Rey was going to be to so many young girls, as a result of this movie, and the sequels. And it's true. She's great.

Which makes the sleazy shipping of her with Kylo Ren even harder to stomach. Those people get off on seeing Rey as a victim to his abuses, who will eventually bring him around to goodness (but probably still with dom/sub stuff) as he reveals the tragic back story that made him such an abusive fuckstick. No, I'm not having it. He's not misunderstood, he sought out the Dark Side, he wanted it in a way that not even Anakin did. This douche actually fetishized evil and is living out his little fantasy with the mask and the black leather. He's not going to be redeemed, as there's nothing left to redeem. That's the line Abrams peddled when he said that Kylo killing Han was to show there was no good left in him, and I'm happy with that.

I bet there are already a thousand bad fanfics that depict Rey and Finn as running a bohemian coffee shop, with Rey as the sweet supporter of Finn's blossoming romance with the dreamy Poe, when one day a tortured young writer/poet/artist/dickhead called Kylo walks in and changes her life forever. Gross.

And as for redeeming him for Leia's sake, wouldn't that be even more cruel, to ask her to forgive the man who murdered the man she loved? To live with forgiving her son for murdering his father? Better to just let her realise that her son is gone for good.

[Zuleikha]

The Jedi mind trick is mind control, so it's definitely not benign. I feel like its use in the original trilogy was always justifiable, but the Jedis used it awfully freely in the prequel (didn't Obi-Wan just use it  just to make someone annoying leave him alone in a bar?)

[MrsR]

Obi Wan first used the mind trick to convince the Stormtroopers that "these are not the droids you are looking for."

 

Then in the cantina he used it to get the guy who was trying to sell him death sticks to "go home and rethink your life."

 

The thing with storm troopers is that you need people to populate your New Order (Empire).To form the government and bureaucracy and police forces of those new worlds you want to conquer. You need people you can promote from within who are real loyal to the cause. Think Hitler Youth. Droids aren't an option there.  

[scarynikki12]

After seeing it again this past weekend I'm now wondering if Snoke worked with Luke before turning Ben and others to the Dark Side.  There wasn't any question about who was pulling the strings of the Order, Han and Leia hadn't seen Ben in a long time yet knew how connected he was to Snoke, Ben's turning and the failure of his New Jedi Order left Luke in such despair that he vanished, and Snoke sees Luke as such a threat that he's been trying to find and kill him ever since.  Snoke was able to turn Ben and I think he did it right under Luke's nose.  I can easily picture Luke searching the galaxy for young people who could be trained as Jedi, meeting and partnering with Snoke along the way, being fooled about his true nature like the Jedi were by Palpatine, and not realizing that some of the Padawans were being turned to the Dark Side until it was too late and Kylo Ren had slaughtered the other children just like Vader.  In such a scenario I can see why Luke would be so despondent that he would place himself into exile as punishment. 

 

This time around I paid more attention to a lot of the details I glossed over during the first viewing.  This time I caught the Skywalker music playing when the camera focused on Rey, I heard Daniel Craig's voice behind the Stormtrooper helmet (hee hee hee), and I looked closely at Ford in his last moments and Hamill in his scene. 

 

Losing Han hurts and Chewie's despair basically rips my heart in two, but the most emotional beat of that scene is Han placing his hand on Ben's face before he falls.  Han looked into the face of his killer with so much love and I found that more affecting than any other potential acting choice.  He wasn't going to stop loving his boy just because he killed him.  I think that, more than anything, is what made Ben lose control against Finn and Rey in those woods.  He wanted Han to hate him in his dying breaths because that would prove that his father was the disappointment he described to Rey.  But Han continued to love him, and he couldn't handle that.  That really stayed with me after I left the theater. 

 

I also loved how Hamill played Luke.  Without a single word he conveyed Luke's grief at losing Han and the fear of what taking the saber from Rey* means.  I think he's afraid that reentering the fight will somehow make things worse.  Whatever the details of Ben and the other Knight's of Ren turning to the Dark Side really are, Luke holds himself responsible and has been dealing with that for years.  I'm very interested to see what happens next.

 

*Symbolically, at least, as Luke should still have the green one and probably will tell Rey to keep the blue one.

[Perfect Xero]

In the GFFA (at least) human beings are worth more than droids. That was the whole philosophy of the clone army and the clone wars. While droids in the GFFA seem to be largely self-sustaining, self-repairing machines, human beings need to be fed, clothed, treated when ill, etc. Even in TFA, I assume that it costs money and resource (ammunition, and the lives of soldiers) to raid settlements with sizable human population, determine which of that population fit the criteria they needed (a very narrow age bracket) and then spend years physically training them and mentally brain-washing them. lastly, the soldiers were made to believe that fighting for the First Order was a noble goal in and of itself, not something that was 'better' than some other kind of labor. 

 

And apart from all the other arguments that have been stated, Finn specifically states that he was in Sanitation, not that Sanitation was part of his training. Specifically distinguishing himself from the other soldiers who were not in Sanitation. So the emphasis wasn't that this was part of his training but that this was his 'job'.

 

It was a ridiculous line, for a cheap joke, made even more irritating because the butt of the joke was a POC, and US media likes portraying the trope of the Immigrant Janitor. It was in poor taste and didn't fit into the worldbuilding of the movie, and there's no justifying it, as far as I can see. 

 

I don't think they'd tell you that it's part of your training ... It's your job, but it's also a stealth training exercise. Like the old army practice of making cadets clean the bathroom with toothbrushes, which was both a punishment but also a way to teach them discipline and attention to detail.

 

It's also a nod and an answer to the Clerks dilemma where Dante and Randall argue about how the Rebels must have killed a bunch of innocent workers and contractors when they blew up the Death Star. The Empire/First Order fills their menial jobs with off-duty storm troopers, so it's okay to just blow up their entire moon/planet sized super weapon and kill everyone inside because they're all storm troopers.

[Zuleikha]

Han looked into the face of his killer with so much love and I found that more affecting than any other potential acting choice.  He wasn't going to stop loving his boy just because he killed him.

That right there is why I have a hard time writing off Kylo Ren. I do not want him to be redeemed and lead a happy life, but I wouldn't mind a sacrificial redemption. I want Han and Leia's love to reach him and make a difference to what happens.[qu

 

Then in the cantina he used it to get the guy who was trying to sell him death sticks to "go home and rethink your life."

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. To me, that was not a justified use of mind control.

[BW Manilowe]

The Twitter for Daisy Ridley's Official Fan Page (which is written as if Daisy's writing it, instead of a third party) Tweeted earlier today that Episode VIII starts filming *this month*. Just an FYI.

https://mobile.twitter.com/_DaisyRidley_/status/684093492365234177/photo/1

[MrsR]

I hope Chewie rips both of Kylo's arms off before he uses his magnificent fangs to rip out his throat.

 

 

[kili]

It's also a nod and an answer to the Clerks dilemma where Dante and Randall argue about how the Rebels must have killed a bunch of innocent workers and contractors when they blew up the Death Star. The Empire/First Order fills their menial jobs with off-duty storm troopers, so it's okay to just blow up their entire moon/planet sized super weapon and kill everyone inside because they're all storm troopers.

If those stormtroopers are kidnapped children who were brainwashed and some of those children are still children in training (if it is the young being given those menial jobs), I'm not sure it gets them around the "Clerks Dilemma" at all. In fact, I would argue that it is worse. Much worse. Those "innocent workers and contractors" at least made the decision as adults to work on a Death Star/Starkillers  (a legitimate military target). These kidnapped children, whether still children or now adults, did not. We do not hold child soldiers guilty of war crimes and this is an extreme case where they were kidnapped as infants and brainwashed. 

 

One might argue that killing the adult stormtroopers is a necessary evil (it's war), but one must realize that they, especially the children are innocent collateral damage.

[Emily Thrace]

Han didn't start going about the universe again until after Ben turned to the dark side.

 

I don't think we can say that for sure based on what we know. Han himself said he often walked away from Leia just because it made her miss him. It would certainly go a long way to explaining why their relationship was so fucked up if Han was in and out when Kylo was a kid. I doubt Han was ever an absentee dad that would be out of character but I could see him signing up for a six month tour to chase Empire remnants and Kylo not really understanding why. Especially if Han was taking off to avoid fighting with Leia that can really do a number on a kid.  Kids tend to think its their fault when parents do things like that even if it not true.. I can definitely see why growing in the middle of Han and Leia's volatile relationship might not be easy.

 

I also think Han did feel culpable, his "there too much Vadar in him" comment was really evasive. I think deep down he did blame himself more than anyone else. That's why he was so insistent that Leia not blame herself.  Not to mention I've never seen a relationship where everything was only one persons fault especially a parent/child one.

 

I hope Chewie rips both of Kylo's arms off before he uses his magnificent fangs to rip out his throat.

 

I think Chewie wouldn't actually try to kill Kylo after all he is Han's son.  Chewie would know better than just about anybody that the last thing Han would want is for Chewie to hurt Kylo.  Even back on the Starkiller planet his shot was was no where near center of mass. Considering Chewie hits everything else he aims at in the movie I think it was deliberate. In my head that was Chewie's way of saying he was trully pissed off but not really seeking revenge. Hell "from a certain point of view" Han gave his life to try to save his son.

 

I'm holding out judgement on Kylo's redemption possibilities until we know more about why he went to the Dark Side in the first place. We don't know what Snoke did to win him. Maybe some form of mental conditioning was involved. Ordinarily, I would hope not because I don't think it's necessary and I think the story of Kylo Ren just falling due to his own failings is compelling, but I'm still in the not-wanting-Han-and-Leia's-child to be irredeemably evil boat. But if Rey is their daughter, I am so on board for Kylo Ren just spiraling further and further until Rey kills him.

 

One theory I always liked is the the fabled person who will bring balance to the force is someone who can master both the light side and the dark side and achieve balance. For that reason I wouldn't eliminate Kylo becoming Ben and walks of into the sunset with Rey Kenobi as a possibility. Although I think him having a last minute turn where he saves Leia or Rey at the cost of his own life seems more likely at this point. In any case I don't think Kylo is permanently on the dark side. People simply wouldn't be satisfied with that ending for Han and Leia's story if nothing else. 

[Jediknight]

Just seen it for the second time tonight. Possibly more enjoyable, because I could anticipate all the great moments and really enjoy them. The bit where Luke's lightsaber flies into Rey's hand as the Luke Theme plays brought a lump to my throat.

Yeah, that moment was amazing, that was the "Hell Yeah" moment of the movie, and really the biggest one in the series since Lando and Wedge blew up the Death Star.  It was also the most emotional moment of the movie for me.  Yeah, even above Han's death, that moment just makes you feel great, and makes you want to shed a tear because of it's awesomeness and what it means in the Star Wars universe.

 

The version of Force Theme that was played was lifted directly from Burning Homestead.  It was used for Luke finding Owen and Beru's bodies and making the decision to embrace his destiny and become a Jedi.  And Rey using the Force to the lightsaber she didn't want to touch, was her embracing her destiny to become a Jedi.  It's just perfect.

[Phebemarie]

That simple act of forgiveness by Han at the moment of his death keeps Kylo Ben's window of redemption open.

[Danny Franks]

That simple act of forgiveness by Han at the moment of his death keeps Kylo Ben's window of redemption open.

I don't think it does. It just means Han was a good person who loved his son. Kylo Ren is still the ingrate who rejected that love, and then exploited it to kill him. I don't think any of the characters left alive to potentially forgive him will give a shit that Han didn't hate his son in that moment. That was Han's choice, not Rey's or Finn's or Chewie's. In fact, their immediate responses were to try to kill Kylo Ren.

This idea of redemption in Star Wars only really comes from Vader anyway, and when you take his story as a whole, from the Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, the idea of him earning redemption for his crimes simply by killing the Emperor is a joke. He wasn't redeemed, he was still an asshole with the blood of thousands, including children, on his hands.

The only reason people, accept it, in my view, is because they saw the 'redemption' before they saw most of the crimes. Does saving Luke make up for killing a bunch of Rebels and Obi Wan? I still say no, personally. Yet he gets a place alongside Obi Wan and Yoga in glowing ghost heaven? Whatever.

[SeanC]

This idea of redemption in Star Wars only really comes from Vader anyway, and when you take his story as a whole, from the Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, the idea of him earning redemption for his crimes simply by killing the Emperor is a joke. He wasn't redeemed, he was still an asshole with the blood of thousands, including children, on his hands.

The only reason people, accept it, in my view, is because they saw the 'redemption' before they saw most of the crimes. Does saving Luke make up for killing a bunch of Rebels and Obi Wan? I still say no, personally. Yet he gets a place alongside Obi Wan and Yoga in glowing ghost heaven? Whatever.

That you don't care for it doesn't negate that Vader's redemption was a key part of Star Wars. He was the main villain of the OT, and he was redeemed by the narrative in the end. Whether that will repeat in the sequel series, who can say?

[Jediknight]

I don't think it does. It just means Han was a good person who loved his son. Kylo Ren is still the ingrate who rejected that love, and then exploited it to kill him. I don't think any of the characters left alive to potentially forgive him will give a shit that Han didn't hate his son in that moment. That was Han's choice, not Rey's or Finn's or Chewie's. In fact, their immediate responses were to try to kill Kylo Ren.

Rey and Finn's response was to get to the Falcon and get off Starkiller.  Kylo blocked their path and told Rey they weren't finished and that Han Solo couldn't save her now.  Their response to Han's death wasn't to kill Kylo, it was to get away.  Rey did pull the blaster on Ren, after he had threatened both her and Finn, he proceeded to Force shove her into a tree, and Finn after checking on Rey took up the lightsaber.  Their response to try to kill Kylo was because they had to survive.

[SeanC]

Not that they much cared for him regardless.

But the significance of Han's reaction is not what it did or didn't communicate to the other characters (they shouldn't really have been able to see much of anything), but what is communicated to the audience.

[nksarmi]

Thanks for answering. I thought that was a bit ridiculous too, him implying that he would train her even though he wasn't fully trained himself. Regarding his training with Luke, I wonder he was trained by him at all. I guess it's possible, based on what was said, I think the impression was that maybe he was sent to train with Luke, but perhaps he didn't make it there and was taken by dark forces? I wonder this because if Kylo was trained by Luke, why would Leia and others have no idea where Luke was? From my understanding he'd been in hiding for 30 years. Maybe I misunderstood?

Despite the horrible script and acting, Hayden Christensen was beautiful to look at, but he and Natalie Portman really struggled with the material in the prequels IMHO. But I digress. Again, though horribly written, I thought Anakin's descent into darkness made sense. He always had a strong spirit of defiance and arrogance that couldn't be tamed by the Jedi. Also, he'd already shown that he had a dark side when he killed those who were responsible for his mother's death. He didn't even spare the women and children. I could see how when he started to have the dreams about Padme dying, he recalled the dreams he had about his mother's death and how he was unable to save her, and that caused him to become obsessed with saving Padme by any means necessary. Add Palpaltine to the mix, whispering in his ear and it made sense that he went off the rails. Ironically, his actions to save Padme ultimately killed her and destroyed him. I thought the story George Lucas came up with for Anakin's turn to the dark side was actually good, but the execution i.e. the script and acting wasn't.

I don't know. I'm not willing to write off Kylo just yet. I'd like to see what drove him to the dark side before deciding he's irredeemable. As previously stated, I'm looking forward to his backstory in the sequels.

 

For me - in terms of Anakin's story - I think I have a hard time with the entire story of the prequels in many ways.  I didn't bat an eye with Yoda said that Luke was "too old" at 18 to begin training, but Anakin being "too old" at 9!?!?!  I just rolled my eyes at the idea that Jedi training needed to begin with the kids were still in diapers. But given the premise that Anakin apparently had experienced too much of life for Yoda to feel comfortable with his training AND the fact that the kid might be the "chosen one" **** - I think maybe the Jedi should have kept a little bit more of an eye on this kid.

 

[****Sidenote, when the Jedi are in power and the Sith are in hiding and there are dozens upon dozens of Jedi knights and only two Sith - why would you want someone to bring "balance" to the force?  I mean, didn't it look like the Jedi were at the advantage at the point?  Wouldn't "balance" be bad?  But I digress.]

 

So yes, Anakin does end up heavily influenced by Palpatine and I believe that he put full faith in him as he rose to Emperor - all of that makes perfect sense.  But I think the whole story told in the prequel seems to run counter to the story told in the original movies.  In the original movies, it was love of a son he never even knew he had that turned Vadar back to the light.  In the prequels love of his mother and love of a woman were seen as weakness and fear of losing them are essentially what led Anakin to the dark side.  Maybe it's because I read some Star Wars books when I was a teen and I - like so many of the authors who wrote with Lucas' approval - assumed that "the force is strong in my family" actually meant that the Jedi HAD families - but I HATE the whole a Jedi doesn't marry or know love crap from the prequels. 

 

I guess when I say Anakin's story was lame - I don't mean that it didn't make sense.  It actually DOES make sense that a government that is so ineffectual that they can't protect a planet from the Trade Federation would eventually fall to an Emperor.  And it DOES make sense that an organization that makes its members give up everything - even family - could have one of its members turn on them (kind of surprised it didn't happen more often to be honest).  But that doesn't mean I enjoyed the story.  I would have preferred Anakin's decent not involve the slaughter of little children as well.  It's hard to get behind someone's redemption when they've gone that evil.

 

But the one thing I can say about Anakin's story that I can't say about Kylo's is at least he suffered some pain to put him on that path to the Dark Side.  He was born a slave, his mother was killed and with all his power he couldn't stop it, he watched as governments and the Jedi order let people suffer and proved themselves ineffectual, and he had Palpatine as an influence at least half his life.  All we can say for Kylo so far is that he was born into freedom, had a mom and dad who loved him and were crazy about each other, parents (and other role models) who fought to protect the weak and stand up against oppression, and an uncle to help him learn how to meditate and deal with his force sensitivity.  

 

At present, they cannot present to me a good enough reason for Kylo/Ben to turn to the Dark Side and kill his father that will not ruin Leah, Han, or Luke as a character.  To me, to make him redeemable they have to trash one of those other characters and tell me these people either abused him or allowed him to endure abuse and did nothing to prevent it.  I might be able to accept that somehow Kylo will see the error of his ways and pay for his crimes - but I don't think he can ever be "saved" in my eyes.    

[SeanC]

[****Sidenote, when the Jedi are in power and the Sith are in hiding and there are dozens upon dozens of Jedi knights and only two Sith - why would you want someone to bring "balance" to the force? I mean, didn't it look like the Jedi were at the advantage at the point? Wouldn't "balance" be bad? But I digress.

From watching the movies I thought the prophecy was ironic and Anakin restored balance by equalizing the number of Jedi and Sith. Now, in retrospect, that doesn't really work, since that would mean the Force was back out of balance after Vader killed the Emperor and then died himself.

From one of Lucas' confusing explanations that I read once, the problem with the "balance" was that the Sith existed at all. So Vader ultimately restored balance by killing the Emperor. One of the big problems with the prequels is that nobody ever supplies any detail about what balancing means.

[nksarmi]

I don't think it does. It just means Han was a good person who loved his son. Kylo Ren is still the ingrate who rejected that love, and then exploited it to kill him. I don't think any of the characters left alive to potentially forgive him will give a shit that Han didn't hate his son in that moment. That was Han's choice, not Rey's or Finn's or Chewie's. In fact, their immediate responses were to try to kill Kylo Ren.

This idea of redemption in Star Wars only really comes from Vader anyway, and when you take his story as a whole, from the Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi, the idea of him earning redemption for his crimes simply by killing the Emperor is a joke. He wasn't redeemed, he was still an asshole with the blood of thousands, including children, on his hands.

The only reason people, accept it, in my view, is because they saw the 'redemption' before they saw most of the crimes. Does saving Luke make up for killing a bunch of Rebels and Obi Wan? I still say no, personally. Yet he gets a place alongside Obi Wan and Yoga in glowing ghost heaven? Whatever.

 

I could not agree more.

 

I mean yes, Sean C is correct - Vadar's decent and redemption is the driving force of those six movies.  And no one can argue that he was redeemed narratively in the end.  But I also think you are correct - half the reason we can buy into his redemption is because we see it before we see his fall. 

 

To me, his fall - his loss, his pain - aren't enough for me to excuse his crimes and buy into his redemption.  I could excuse a lot of things in the originals because we were told that Anakin was great man before Vadar "killed" him and because we could imagine that whatever turned him was awful.  But once the prequals come around, we don't get to see Anakin be that great man (not really - but I guess the Clone Wars cartoon tried to cover that ground) but we did see some pretty bad crimes (including the slaughter of toddlers).  So with that story complete - I don't really buy that Vadar was redeemed.  I can only believe that his love for family won out over everything else.  But thanks to the prequels, I can't say that love is the equivalent of "good" or "light" in this story.  So yes Anakin's love beat out his evil, but that doesn't mean light won over darkness.

 

So now we fast forward to Kylo and we learn that apparently love doesn't mean a damn thing because there is no question in my mind that Ben was well loved.  And Kylo spits in the face of that love when he kills his dad.  So yea sure, in Star Wars maybe he's redeemable since love doesn't mean "light." But to me, he's toast.  The truth is that sometimes in life, some people are well loved and have every advantage and they end up bad.  And sometimes people grow up without anything (Rey) and perhaps get told all the wrong messages (Finn) and end up good.  I hope that is the story Abrams is going for here.  That no matter what you are born with - ultimately you decide who you are and there is no one to blame but you.  I could get behind that story but any redemption for Kylo would leave me cold and I would find it unbelievable.

[VCRTracking]

About Kylo Ren not looking like either of his parents, I just remembered when I first saw Doctor Zhivago and in the narrative framing device that bookends the movie Obi-Wan himself, Alec Guinness as Zhivago's half brother, a Soviet general looking for the long-lost daughter of Zhivago and Lara who are both dead. They bring in a young woman to see him and there's a point where Guinness shows her a picture of Omar Sharif, and he says "This is your father." and he shows her a picture of Julie Christie and says, "This is your mother." and looking at the actress they cast to be their supposed lovechild and I'm thinking "Uhhhh....no."

Edited January 5, 2016 by VCRTracking

[MrsR]

I think Darth's last act and motives are generally over simplified.

 

He's trying to convince his son to come over to the dark side and they are engaging in their cat and mouse light saber fight while Luke is trying to convince him to come back over to the light.

 

Then the Emperor shows up and does something remarkable, he tries to convince Luke to kill his own father and take his place alongside the Emperor.

 

Well, Darth has been here before with Dooku, he finally sees the Emperor for the magnificent bastard he is, willing to betray Darth in favor of Luke.

 

He must have felt like a complete schmuck.  And then Luke lays down his arms, meaning an almost certain death for him at the Emperor's hands. A true defiant Jedi sacrifice. A huge gamble.

 

He has been bested by his son, betrayed by his boss and realizes he has been used all along. 

 

It's not just love for his son. It's a moment of clarity of what a complete failure he has been all along. Oh the shame! A failed Jedi and a chump Sith. It's much more layered than simple familial devotion.

 

It's a redemption yeah, but it pales in comparison to Luke's decision. 

 

He didn't deserve a spot in Luke's heaven hallucination. He was truly weak minded.

Edited January 5, 2016 by MrsR

[absnow54]

I'm at the point where I've accepted a passing resemblance to Ford, especially images of Adam Driver outside of the film where he isn't so clean cut, but I haven't been able to reconcile the Skywalker side, which is unfortunate, since they're the core family. Even if Mark and Carrie look nothing like Hayden and Natalie, it was like "Floppy blond haired/blue eyed boy: Check. Petite brunette with brown eyes and fancy hairdo: Check." I've come to realize that the only person who can conceivably play a relative of Adam Driver without me scratching my head is Ezra Miller.

[KatWay]

Ezra Miller as Kylo Ren would have been great (though he looks a lot younger than Driver even, so the timeline would confuse me considerably). He played an amazing sociopath in We need to talk about Kevin. But then again, the Rey/Kylo shipping would probably be even worse in that case, so...

 

I think the likeliest outcome is a (somewhat) noble sacrifice like Vader...after all, they were focusing a lot on Kylo Ren wanting to follow in his footsteps. He killed Han Solo, and unless it turns out he was mindcontrolled or brainwashed, I don't see how they could possibly redeem him. He was shown to struggle with his "light" side and chose to murder his father anyways, so that speaks against a mindcontrol situation. I don't see him riding off into the sunset at the end of these movies.