Nice Is A Four Letter Word: The "Nice Guys/Girls" Of TV

[Spartan Girl]

We all hate the Nice Guy/Nice Girl TV trope, otherwise known as the average character that passively aggressively acts nice for the sole purpose of obtaining a love interest. So I thought to start a thread so that we could track down all the offending characters in the history of TV.

I'll start with a TV Nice Guy that has been universally reviled on the Internet: Dawson Leery.

Seeing the Dawson's Creek reruns on ABC Family made me realize that he is the ultimate Nice Guy. He parades himself as a classic romantic hero when in reality he's a mean, petty, arrogant, self-absorbed jackass.

Actually, Joey Potter might be a good example of a Nice Girl too. She was every bit as self-righteous and passive-aggressive as he was. I re watched the infamous scene where Dawson turns down sex with her in season 3, and while Dawson didn't handle it well (handing her back her shirt was just so douchey), I understood not wanting to rush back into a relationship with a girl that dumped him twice. But Joey manages to make it sound like it was all about Dawson not being physically attracted to her and even had the nerve to say "it's not my fault you're still a virgin." Just....ugh. Those two assholes deserved each other.

Just my two cents of course. Care to dissect some other so-called Nice Characters?

[galax-arena]

I think it might be interesting to distinguish between a Nice Guy character and a Nice Guy narrative. Sometimes we have characters that aren't Nice Guys in that (per canon) they don't act like entitled assholes about it, but the narrative still props up that sort of idea; the character might not act entitled, but the story tells us that yes, this guy totally deserves to get the girl because he's so nice and this girl is such a shallow bitch for not recognizing how awesome the guy is.

 

As an aside, because this is music and not television, Taylor Swift's "You Belong With Me" is essentially the Nice Girl anthem.

 

ETA: I'd be interested to hear about any TV examples of Nice Guys/Girls being told off? That is, where their affections and entitlement aren't propped up by the narrative? I remember Lucas on Pretty Little Liars creeping on Hanna during season 1, and Hanna telling him off for it. Of course, a large part of fandom kept accusing Hanna of being too mean to poor Lucas.

Edited July 13, 2015 by galax-arena

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Friends and The Big Bang Theory have classic Nice Guy narratives, with Ross and Leonard occasionally slipping into Nice Guy personas. An early ep of BBT showed what a great guy Leonard was because he didn't pursue sex with an obviously drunk and sobbing Penny. Let me repeat: due only to not taking sexual advantage of a crying woman and friend, Leonard is wonderful. And now deserves said woman. Who at the time he was interested in solely for her pretty face and beautiful body.

I read somewhere that the percentage of young adults who decisively choose permanent singlehood is on a slow but consistent rise, and I wonder if the light being shined on the Nice Guy/Girl phenomenon as it carries over to the real world might be correlative.

[kiddo82]

An early ep of BBT showed what a great guy Leonard was because he didn't pursue sex with an obviously drunk and sobbing Penny. Let me repeat: due only to not taking sexual advantage of a crying woman and friend, Leonard is wonderful. And now deserves said woman. Who at the time he was interested in solely for her pretty face and beautiful body.

Sounds like Xander Harris part deux.

[callie lee 29]

I'm actually a big fan of the nice girl/nice guy. I'm not a huge fan of the bad guy with a heart of gold crap. The trope where the guy/girl is a dick 99.9% of the time and treats every one like shit and then does one quasi-nice thing ao they must be the most awesome person evercan go fuck itself. Having watched Dawson's Creek and The Big Bang Theory I 1.) thought everyone on Dawson's Creek acted like a self-absorbed asshole. They were teenagers. Having worked with teenagers for 15 years, many are self-absorbed assholes most of the time. And then the decent human being they actually are (hopefully/sometimes) wins out. 2.) I never got the felling that the show was putting out the idea that Leonard "deserved" Penny.

 

Personally, I think it's a lot harder to play the nice girl/guy. The idea that it's boring, uninspired, must be a jerk and hiding something is so rampant and an easy place for writers to go to, no one seems to try to make the nice one's interesting.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Friends and The Big Bang Theory have classic Nice Guy narratives, with Ross and Leonard occasionally slipping into Nice Guy personas. An early ep of BBT showed what a great guy Leonard was because he didn't pursue sex with an obviously drunk and sobbing Penny. Let me repeat: due only to not taking sexual advantage of a crying woman and friend, Leonard is wonderful. And now deserves said woman. Who at the time he was interested in solely for her pretty face and beautiful body.

 

 

Sounds like Spike part deux.

 

Fixed. And I knew that was coming sooner rather than later.

 

If nothing else, people in the fandom disliking Xander because he's "mean" to the likes of Spike puts paid (IMO) to the idea that him ostensibly being a nice guy is really the problem. Because Spike isn't just a Nice Guy, he is the Nice Guy.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Cobalt Stargazer

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

There's a difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy. A nice guy is genuinely nice, sometimes put upon because of it, and most of their less glowing moments come from reaching their breaking point at being the constant straight man to the wackiness around them.

The Nice Guy is someone who believes that because he is fairly pleasant and has never done anything truly awful in life, he's entitled to all that is good in the world solely due to his niceness. This is most often either a belief from a person or narrative that they "deserve" their love interest due to the fact that they are consistently nice to said interest. That person's feelings, mutual interest, and often relationship status be damned, the Nice Guy wants what's his. Nice Guys are often defined by inaction--they never really DO anything, just passively wait for their just rewards and express scorn on the adulation received by the doers of the world: How come no one praises me like they do the quarterback who won Friday's game? It's my graduation too, why is the valedictorian getting all the attention? How dare that pretty girl prefer talking to that interesting man who engaged her in conversation when I'm sitting here being nice right where she can see me?

In short, a Nice Guy is self-described, but is truly not very nice.

[Spartan Girl]

Fixed. And I knew that was coming sooner rather than later.

 

If nothing else, people in the fandom disliking Xander because he's "mean" to the likes of Spike puts paid (IMO) to the idea that him ostensibly being a nice guy is really the problem. Because Spike isn't just a Nice Guy, he is the Nice Guy.

You are right about Spike getting turned into a Nice Guy. But to be fair, both Willow and Xander had some Nice Guy and Nice Girl characteristics too, particularly in terms of passively resenting their crushes for not picking them. And both of them at one point used magic to mind rape the objects of their affections: Willow cast a spell to make Tara forget about their fight and Xander cast a love spell on Cordelia just so that he could dump her the way she dumped him.

Not to mention the season 2 episode about girls building a "perfect boy" had Xander give a Nice Guy rant about how girls always go after a dream boy rather than the nice boys in front of them.

But I digress...

Another character that got turned into a Nice Guy was Ted Mosby in the last few seasons of How I Met Your Mother, when he was obsessed with Robin again. Robin told him flat out that she wasn't in love with him, and yet he still went after that locket for a wedding gift hoping that she'd change her mind. Also, some viewers believe that his narration exaggerated Barney's womanizing just so that he could look better in comparison. Considering how douchey Ted became, I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

Not to mention the season 2 episode about girls building a "perfect boy" had Xander give a Nice Guy rant about how girls always go after a dream boy rather than the nice boys in front of them.

 

I assume you mean Some Assembly Required? It was an episode where a bunch of boys tried to build a "perfect" girl and Xander didn't mean women but people in general, himself included. Said nothing about any nice boys or girls, just that sometimes people prefer the unattainable rather than what's in front of their noses, which is quite true. Xander has his Nice Guy moments, no doubt, but personally I don't think this is one of them.

 

 

I remember Lucas on Pretty Little Liars creeping on Hanna during season 1, and Hanna telling him off for it. Of course, a large part of fandom kept accusing Hanna of being too mean to poor Lucas.

 

I have never noticed Lucas being particularly popular among the fans and never seen anyone accusing Hanna of treating him badly. But I can easily imagine people used to cliche of the bullied geek winning over the heart of the popular girl being annoyed that it didn't happen this time.

 

 

As an aside, because this is music and not television, Taylor Swift's "You Belong With Me" is essentially the Nice Girl anthem.

 

It is, isn't it? Funnily enough, it was the song that made me a fan of Taylor, a bit later it dawned on me how problematic the message was and now it's probably my least favourite song of hers.

 

Ross Gellar is one of the most obvious nice guys on TV. He got pissed at his supposed best friend because Rachel had the temerity of having a sex dream with Chandler in it. Then there was the whole "I lied about the marriage annulment" incident. Not that Rachel was much better, in some respects those two fools deserved each other.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe

[galax-arena]

Funnily enough, it was the song that made me a fan of Taylor

Well, the tune is catchy as hell! I just wish there were different lyrics, heh.

But I can easily imagine people used to cliche of the bullied geek winning over the heart of the popular girl being annoyed that it didn't happen this time.

Yeah, I think that might have been it. IA that Lucas never seemed to be that much of a fan favorite on his own. 

[Ambrosefolly]

Well I feel sorry for the nice guys. In real life I just want to shake them and have them read all of the manosphere websites I know. It doesn't help that the writers of these shows have a host of unresolved issues that they are projecting on to these characters, because they were once the nice guy that didn't get the pretty girl. There is a balance between the desire to be a good, kind person that is constantly taken advantage of and never gets dates and the asshole sociopath that never sleeps alone if he doesn't want to. It isn't nice guy/ creeper and bad boy, but mindset of the guys in question. 

 

The other side of this is girls will say one thing and act completely different, and this happens in real and reel life. They will say that they want a guy that respects them and is kind to them, but will date the bad boys, who on a lot of these shows are admitted criminals or killers. Only when they are approaching thirty will they deign to date and then marry some of these "nice guys" who, despite their personality flaws, actually aren't wife beaters in the making.

 

Friends is good example.  Setting Ross aside, who the show said was pretty messed up after his wife realized she was a lesbian, lets look at Chandler. Chandler would be considered a catch. He had a steady job (to the point he was supporting Joey before his break), if not physically fit, was at least trim (at least for most of the shows run) and was acknowledge to have a sense of humor. Yet while broke ass Joey was banging a different woman every night, Chandler often complained about the lack of dates he had. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[kili]

Friends is good example.  Setting Ross aside, who the show said was pretty messed up after his wife decided she was a lesbian, lets look at Chandler. Chandler would be considered a catch. He had a steady job (to the point he was supporting Joey before his break), if not physically fit, was at least trim (at least for most of the shows run) and was acknowledge to have a sense of humor. Yet while broke ass Joey was banging a different woman every night, Chandler often complained about the lack of dates he had.

 

Chandler was WAY more messed up than Ross. Ross had trust and jealousy issues because of Carol and he had baked in "Nice Guy" issues because of his parents' unquestioning adulation of him, but he had the ability to have several long-term, serious relationships.  Chandler had a host of self-esteem and commitment problems coupled with a lack of social skills that torpedoed most of his relationships - he himself never expected any of them to work. Joey was damaged in his own way with his unhealthy attitude about relationships, but most of his partners knew the score - as Rachel once wanted, sometimes a person just wants to be flung. All of the Friends had issues.

 

The other side of this is girls will say one thing and act completely different, and this happens in real and reel life.They will say that they want a guy that respects them and is kind to them, but will date the bad boys, who on a lot of these shows are admitted criminals or killers. Only when they are approaching thirty will they deign to date and then marry some of these "nice guys" who, despite their personality flaws, actually aren't wife beaters in the making.

 

Some women do that, not women  in general. I personally know no criminals or killers or anybody I would classify a "bad boy", but I know a lot of great guys who were married before they were thirty (to use the age in the post).  It is the NiceGuy ZuluQueenOfDwarves so accurately described that I know  who is still bitterly sitting in his house at 40 complaining about how girls only date jerks.

 

My NIceGuy nomination: George from Grey's Anatomy.

Edited July 14, 2015 by kili

[Janet Snakehole]

Sometimes I don't mind Nice Guys, as long as they have a shred of awareness. I think Chandler and Ross as Nice Guys kind of count as that, because both they and the show could take a step back and examine some of their behavior as being over the top.

I also am more forgiving of Nice Guys/Girls who are teenagers. Seth Cohen could kind of be seen as one, but he never bugged me because he was a teen, and to teens everything is dramatic. I think it is all about context for me, as long as the show is not painting the Nice Person as entitled to what they want and absolutely right, I can deal with it.

[Ambrosefolly]

Nor do I know any women that that have married or even dated criminals, but do girls that date and sleep with loads of creeps and then complain about how nice guys feel entitled to pretty girls, often from the same girls. Some of these people that complain about nice guys have little fear of exploiting them, taking advantage of their affection (and I find it bunk that girls have no clue about this. I have had very little dating experience and even I know when a guy has a romantic interest in me) and exploiting it for their own materialistic and/or emotional needs.  I don't think the girls owe a relationship for stuff the guys are doing, but do think they need to own their behavior when they are exploiting them . This doesn't include when a girl is showing the guy basic kindness or helping out the guy once in awhile. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[mansonlamps]

My vote for Nice Guy is Spence from King of Queens.  They even play up this persona in several episodes where he mocks Doug or Deacon for being whipped or whatever and then later show him alone pining away for some woman or another wishing he was in Doug or Deacon's shoes.  But it's just supposed to happen for him because he's a Nice Guy, he's not supposed to have to actually pursue anyone or treat them kindly.

[Featherhat]

George on GA was an annoying one for me. I actually think his and Meredith's storyline in S2 was interesting. He had idolised her and idolised how he would react in a situation with her and that got completely blown out of the water with the emotionally and physically terrible sex, for both of them. It's a little bit both of their faults. Meredith was as usual in S2 a mess and had just met her father for the first time in 25 years and George knew she wasn't thinking about him but went for it anyway and it was a total mess. Because he thought longing for her passive aggressive about it meant that he briefly persuaded himself that moment was the fairytale not the nightmare. I liked the fact that they managed to basically get passed it eventually.

 

I don't know what to say to anyone that says "girls go for jerks" because honestly I never have and that includes a wide spectrum of behaviour from unrepentant nasty assholes to the proverbial "hey I attended two poetry readings with you, shall we have sex now?" types. This is a thing girls have to learn as well. Just because you are quirky/geeky/genius doesn't mean that the guy you want has to fall for you like a romcom. That genre has a lot to answer to for both sexes.

[ParadoxLost]

ETA: I'd be interested to hear about any TV examples of Nice Guys/Girls being told off?

 

The only time I recall this happening is on General Hospital.  Back in the day (and that day is long over and no longer applies) Laura could literally do no wrong; and in a soap every one that is Nice only has a 'Nice' narrative not actual personality because of the genre (triangles, etc).  Well Laura went along with faking her death (and not telling one of her sons about it) for reasons I can't recall but were probably Cassadine related and when she returned the town lost their shit and one by one every one of her friends took turns chewing her out.

 

Well I feel sorry for the nice guys. In real life I just want to shake them and have them read all of the manosphere websites I know. It doesn't help that the writers of these shows have a host of unresolved issues that they are projecting on to these characters, because they were once the nice guy that didn't get the pretty girl. There is a balance between the desire to be a good, kind person that is constantly taken advantage of and never gets dates and the asshole sociopath that never sleeps alone if he doesn't want to.

 

The only examples I can think of striking the right balance and creating a really good and entertaining nice guy is Chuck in the form of Chuck and Captain Awesome.

[braziliangirl]

 

I'm not a huge fan of the bad guy with a heart of gold crap. The trope where the guy/girl is a dick 99.9% of the time and treats every one like shit and then does one quasi-nice thing ao they must be the most awesome person evercan go fuck itself.

 

I agree! I'm also really tired of this trope. Also: sometimes the nice guy began interesting but somehow became pathetic or caricaturesque (like Jake on Awkward) mainly to prop other love interests.

 

Reading this thread I thought about Dan Humphrey. I'm still mad

about Serena ending up with him. 

[Irlandesa]

As an aside, because this is music and not television, Taylor Swift's "You Belong With Me" is essentially the Nice Girl anthem.

In a way it is.  But it's also super painfully real.   That's why the whole nice guy/nice girl trope is difficult and is sometimes missed because I do think having "oh I'd be so much better for you" feelings towards a crush is something many people have experienced.  It's why Taylor's song resonated so much. I also think sometimes people think they have a better handle on their crush than they actually do.  So I always struggle with the line.  I give more leeway to characters that show awareness and who actually do try to be good people for reasons other than being rewarded.

 

I give no leeway to characters who act entitled and mad at their crush for not giving in.

 

I think the perfect encapsulation of ugliest side of the "Nice Guy" character is Will Forte's character Phil on Last Man On Earth.  It may not be the first person people think of because by the end of the season, he was pretty much roundly considered a jerk but, in the beginning, we weren't sure that's who we were going to get. He had some bad moments but also some good moments.  However,  once the "hot girl" came into the picture, almost everything nice he did was to try and sleep with her (or some other women who were later introduced.)

Edited July 15, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Miss Dee]

Something I don't think I've ever seen on TV is a story about a girl who doesn't see the nice guy in front of her who treats her awesomely, eventually realizes that maybe he's worth pursuing, pursues him - and then finds out he's not even remotely interested in dating her, he just has a kind personality. That would be a little something different to see on TV.

[Chaos Theory]

First off let me get this out of the way.  I hate that there is a category of character called "Nice Guy/Girl."  I actually find it offensive that there is one.  Like being nice is something to scorn and if you are nice you never ever ever deserve to be loved.  Take the most recent episode of Dark Matter.    Three isn't a nice guy.  He is an asshole and he has a backstory with a tragic love interest that is awwww inspiring.  One on the other hand is a nice guy and everyone is getting up in his face because he is getting upset that Two isn't returning his affection like he wants her to.  My question is is One a nice guy who is getting mixed signals from a woman or is he a :Nice Guy,"?  Previously I said the former but I am not really sure because being nice is the only character trait that he has......but in his defense are 2 things  The first is that he is getting seriously mixed signals and the second is that the whole premise of the show is that we and they don't know who they are yet so the fact that all we know about One is that he is nice is problematic but not so problematic (We know almost nothing about most if not all the characters)   that it throws him forever into "Nice Guy" land.    So I would put One in a kinda.....category if I didn't find this category offensive to begin with.  

 

Something I don't think I've ever seen on TV is a story about a girl who doesn't see the nice guy in front of her who treats her awesomely, eventually realizes that maybe he's worth pursuing, pursues him - and then finds out he's not even remotely interested in dating her, he just has a kind personality. That would be a little something different to see on TV.

 

 

The problem with writing someone who is "just nice"  is that they are hard to keep interesting.  Eventually you have to give them quirks and personality traits that have nothing to do with being nice.  Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.   If you just right the nice girl with no personality then what do you do with her? 

 

Another character that got turned into a Nice Guy was Ted Mosby in the last few seasons of How I Met Your Mother, when he was obsessed with Robin again. Robin told him flat out that she wasn't in love with him, and yet he still went after that locket for a wedding gift hoping that she'd change her mind

 

 

Yes but he changed his mind too.  Ted has always been written as a middle ground between Nice Guy and "Nice Guy."   

[memememe76]

Interesting that Ross and Chandler are singled out as suffering from being the "Nice" character. Chandler's sarcasm and Ross' nerdiness helped them being quirky enough to avoid that title. I think the character on Friends that may have been given the "Nice" person problem is Monica. Monica was certainly the "straight" character on the show, and they made her more "less straight" as seasons wore on in order to make her "interesting". Will & Grace suffered from that same problem, when Jack and Karen got so much of the accolades.

 

Maybe it's less an issue of being "nice" and just being the "straight" character on the show. An example is Jack on Lost. Jack is not all that nice, but he's also not as quirky as the other characters on the show. Also, the lead character gets a lot of flack for just being the lead character. I mean, they get so much more attention than the supporting characters, it's so not fair!

 

I can't think of one character that is overpraised for being "nice". If anything, they get their asses kicked from their first scene of the pilot. Especially, the female love interests of the leading comic book hero.

[Actionmage]

I actually find it offensive that there is one.  Like being nice is something to scorn and if you are nice you never ever ever deserve to be loved.

 

That is not what this thread is for. In fact, it's disappointment that genuinely nice guys/gals seem to be in shorter supply. As succinctly defined by ZuluQueenof Dwarves (italics mine):

There's a difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy. A nice guy is genuinely nice, sometimes put upon because of it, and most of their less glowing moments come from reaching their breaking point at being the constant straight man to the wackiness around them.

 

The Nice Guy is someone who believes that because he is fairly pleasant and has never done anything truly awful in life, he's entitled to all that is good in the world solely due to his niceness. This is most often either a belief from a person or narrative that they "deserve" their love interest due to the fact that they are consistently nice to said interest

 

The problem with writing someone who is "just nice"  is that they are hard to keep interesting.

 

I don't believe that. There are plenty of genuinely nice folks who have made their way across TV screens and have been interesting, one being the aforementioned Captain Awesome of Chuck. He was almost a parody of a paragon, but Awesome was an interesting guy in his own right for five seasons. Mary Tyler Moore's Mary Richards was a nice woman in the 70s news profession.  Ms. Richards was no shrinking violet, just very polite. Jennifer Marlow of WKRP in Cincinnati was nice, essentially, regardless of what you thought of her sexuality. Most of the old men she was a  companion to knew what the deal was, so there was no illusions on either side. She was supportive and tried to guide her co-workers and friends to be their better selves. Also, Kimmy Schimdt, of The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, is a genuinely nice character ( or has been, I haven't finished watching the season) who has one of the more interesting backstories and current adventures I have seen lately!

 

 

Interesting that Ross and Chandler are singled out as suffering from being the "Nice" character. Chandler's sarcasm and Ross' nerdiness helped them being quirky enough to avoid that title.

 

 

The following is, of course, just my opinion and the opinion of one other person.This particular piece helped me put a finger on why  I put Ross in the Nice Guy slot. http://www.anamardoll.com/2014/03/friends-annotated-index-of-ross-geller.html

 

From Episode 1, Season 1:

All of this is calculated to make it very difficult for Rachel to say No: he's not asking her out, he's asking if he can ask her out at some unspecified future date, and he's drawing awareness to how painful it would be if she didn't let him have this 'little' request. Ross will then choose not to follow up on this "permission" to ask Rachel out for the same reason that he dances so vigorously around the request here: he is afraid of giving her room to issue an unequivocal No, which would mean he would have to stop asking. Instead, he hopes to maneuver her into a relationship with him without her conscious awareness of it ("is it a date if she doesn’t know we’re going on a date?"--Episode 105); if she doesn't know she's being pushed into a relationship with him, she can't say no.

 

 

From Episode 6, S1

This is another episode that isn't heavy with Ross details, but it's worth noting his attempts to cheer Chandler when Chandler is sad at having broken up with Aurora. Ross tells him: "Look at it this way: you dumped her. Right? I mean, this woman was unbelievably sexy, and beautiful, intelligent, unattainable... Tell me why you did this again?" We see that the most important things here that Ross values are winning (that Chandler was the dumper, not the dumpee) and how "attainable" the woman is.

 

 

From Episode 9, S1:

But it's worth noting that this means that Ross took literally no interest whatsoever in Rachel's genuinely big hopes of seeing her family over the holidays and he didn't care even a little bit over the sadness she would feel at not being able to see them. And he maintained this insular callousness even while he himself was distraught over not seeing his parents over the holidays, to the point where he drove Monica to distraction by his repeated complaints that she wasn't a sufficient substitute for his mom ("I don't know. It's just not the same without Mom in the kitchen.").

 

There are two posts breaking down the first 12 episodes and a "megapost" on Ross. I was awash in disbelief in the continued asshattery of Ross Geller. I don't think any supposed quirkiness can make-up for the callous narcissism that Ross displayed from the pilot on. Also, while Ross was told off once in a while, he still acted like the supreme victim.

 

My nomination:

*Barry Allen, The Flash: I put this more on the writing than the character. Everything, everything, is seen through a prism of how Barry feels. His crush object is in a loving, committed relationship? Sorry, she kissed him in a near-lethal situation, so she is lying about how she feels for him. ( Simplification; I don't want to go into alternate timelines and such.) He has yet to also apologize, iirc, about beating said bf when under mind-control as The Flash, and the bf was beaten up with Barry's full on Anger ( and jealousy) and speed.  By the way, I think that Grant Gustin, Barry's portrayer, has the charisma to work around some of the Nice Guy whininess and entitlement and I enjoy the show. I just think the writing for the lead hero was lost around mid-season and I hope they find it before Season 2 starts up.

[Irlandesa]

I won't deny Ross had some "nice guy" moments but none of those listed moments are moments I would choose.  I think "misplacing" a phone number would be something I'd hold him to task for...not poorly handling an attempt to get back in the dating pool which forced nothing of Rachel. 

 

I do agree that quirkiness doesn't erase things for me but it goes a long way when the "nice guy" actually is a nice guy quite often and the show holds a character accountable for their actions instead of ignoring them or pretending like they're okay.  I think Friends kind of did that which is why I was ultimately okay with both Chandler and Ross.

[memememe76]

The Nice Guy is someone who believes that because he is fairly pleasant and has never done anything truly awful in life, he's entitled to all that is good in the world solely due to his niceness. This is most often either a belief from a person or narrative that they "deserve" their love interest due to the fact that they are consistently nice to said interest

 

IMO, people who don't like the Nice Guy just use the above as their reason for disliking the Nice Guy. The Nice Guy character just never gets a break on TV. They do one bad thing and it is literally the end of the world or, worse, SO DAMN HYPOCRITICAL.

 

Kinda like the Mary Sue. I don't think the Mary Sue or the Nice Guy are all that common on television--or, alternatively, too easily labelled on characters.

 

I suppose there are those relationships where one character has a longstanding crush on the other--I think Niles and Daphne on Fraser. But it seems the more common TV relationship is where the characters hate each other and then end up loving each other, or one person is a truly awful person but is "redeemed" by the love of another person.

[Actionmage]

Here is another link that might also explain the concept a bit better ( just in case- there is some frank language there): http://www.shakesville.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html

[proserpina65]

Here is another link that might also explain the concept a bit better ( just in case- there is some frank language there): http://www.shakesville.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html

I get the concept, and it is quite annoying in those few instances where it really applies, but I don't think the "Nice Guy" concept happens nearly as often as television commenters seemed to imply.

[amensisterfriend]

I agree with some ambivalence about the whole 'nice guy who isn't particularly nice at all' concept---obviously those types do exist in both fiction and real life, but I feel like putting so many seemingly nice yet imperfect guys in the dreaded "Nice Guy" category does them a disservice. In certain instances it's almost become an excuse to root for the blatantly sociopathic characters instead---like, see, ALL guys are scum, but at least in this case we see their egregious awfulness earlier on! The ubiquity of the Nice Guy thing now seems to distract from the fact that some guys are generally nice without being Nice, though---flawed, but nice :) 

 

All that said, I do have a nomination for this category. I can't even hear about a Nice Guy without thinking of Joan of Arcadia's Adam Rove. He's the super sensitive, artistic, creative, quirky touchingly uncertain and allegedly 'adorable' outcast...so we're supposed to root for him, right?! Only I could never stand the guy---I found him a pathetic, entitled, grossly self-pitying, selfish and weak-in-dangerous-ways poseur even before he cheated on Joan and became weirdly fixated with the sexual aspects of their relationship. The quasi-stoner manner of speaking drives me nuts, and I can't stand how he's depicted as just too fragile and special a snowflake for this ever so harsh world of ours who everyone has to automatically excuse and forgive because...reasons. Argh! Oh...and I thought his precious artistic creations sucked :) 

Edited July 29, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[galax-arena]

I like genuine nice guy characters. I've been really liking Scream's Noah, for example, and was rooting for him and Riley (who was very much a genuine nice girl character herself). I've never been into the sociopath/bad boy with a heart of gold types as love interests. I just don't like it when anyone acts entitled to a relationship because "I'm so nice"; that's what sets me off about Nice Guys . Congratulations for meeting the basic standards of human decency, I guess? Do you want a cookie? 

 

Or when "nice" is taken to the extreme of being a doormat and/or obsessive towards the love interest. Even if the character doesn't act entitled to the relationship, I can't root for someone who just rolls over and does whatever the girl wants or whose entire world revolves around her. It's like I'm supposed to take that a sign of how devoted and in luuuuuv he is. No, thanks. I can't really root for couples where it's obvious that the guy has her on a pedestal and worships her. 

 

That's one thing I like about Noah; he's nice, but not a pushover. And he wasn't obsessed with Riley. (I say this as someone who's watched two eps so far, although I do know what happens later on.) 

Edited July 29, 2015 by galax-arena

[RealHousewife]

On 7/14/2015 at 12:46 PM, Janet Snakehole said:

I also am more forgiving of Nice Guys/Girls who are teenagers. Seth Cohen could kind of be seen as one, but he never bugged me because he was a teen, and to teens everything is dramatic. I think it is all about context for me, as long as the show is not painting the Nice Person as entitled to what they want and absolutely right, I can deal with it.

I was a big Seth Cohen fan. I thought he was so cute and so funny.

Real life versus TV bad boys can definitely be quite different. Dylan McKay was considered a bad boy, but he was a dreamy looking dude with a sexy voice, and while he wasn't a saint, he wasn't a criminal or mean-spirited. 

I like a genuine nice guy, and I don't think nice guys finish last. Are there nice men who aren't appreciated? Absolutely, ditto nice women. But the guys I've heard say nice guys finish last have rarely had bad luck with women due to being nice. Sometimes they're not truly nice. It's the whole "nice guy" thing. Just because you're pleasant doesn't mean you're entitled to a pretty girl. I've actually known some really cruel, horrible men who consider themselves nice. And just like men, women look for a whole lot more than simply nice. Is he fun? Is he sexy? Is he intelligent? If you're just a boring nice guy, you're not going to be a chick magnet. 

The bad boys don't necessarily end up with happily ever after. However, it's true they can get more action. They're oftentimes less shy, more confident, smooth, have more game. If they're funny, you'll probably find out more quickly than the nice, shy quiet guy you have to get to know better. With nice guy types, sometimes I don't even realize they like me, because they do move more slowly. The bad boy types are more forward. There is also the unpredictability that a lot of people like. I personally do not want any drama, but I can see some people wanting more in life than sitting at home watching TV with someone nice. The nice guy stereotype is that they lack excitement, but that's not necessarily true. You just have to find someone who's into the same things. 

One thing I have a hard time understanding is when people who have their fair choice of men or women like people who don't like them. The more attractive someone finds me, the more I like them! I like to feel special. I have no interest in seeking the approval of an asshole. "I thought you were really pretty, and I was wondering if I could get your number" may or may not work. I don't like giving my number to strangers, but it is a nice way to approach a woman, and you'll have better luck with that than trying to neg me. Now negging on the other hand, I kind of get. It's really sad but, if you don't get positive attention, you'll take any attention. 

[Ambrosefolly]

I am becoming low key obsessed with Euphoria, and find Nate vs Fez somewhat interesting. For one thing Nate is a totally scumbag but they are doing a good job of making him a three dimensional one without it being too "woo is me" (that is saved for his dad, Cal).Fez in a lot of ways is a bad boy, since he is a drug dealer. But he is also taking care of his invalid grandma and adopted little brother, & even has taken in the crack addicted girlfriend of his dealer partner and hasn't made a move on her. It look like he has a genuine interest in nice girl Lexi. 

They are even addressing Kat's lack of interest in Ethan because of Ethan's genuine goodness. Hopefully, they won't turn him into a jerk. Maybe show it is okay that Kat is the one with the problem, but that doesn't make her the devil if she cuts him loose sooner rather than later. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Okay Ross Geller is child's play LOL.

You guys want the ultimate Nice Guy on TV?

Does anyone watch "What I Like About You"?  It's a cute sitcom from the 2000s set in NYC starring Amanda Bynes and Jennie Garth as sisters.  Even though they're like 20 years apart.  But ok.

I genuinely love this show but boy, is it flawed.  I don't remember when I first saw the whole run.  It wasn't when it originally aired but a bit later.  I loved it and didn't notice the flaws.

But the second time I watched it oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh boy.  The two major love interests on the show, Vince (Nick Zano) and Vic (Dan Cortese) are extremely problematic.

In Season 2 of the show, Val (Jennie Garth) works for Vic (Dan Cortese) in PR.   Vic does not appear in Season 3.

In Season 4 of the show, Val and Vic start the season by drunkenly eloping in Vegas.

Val says it was a huge mistake, she's never done anything like this before, she regrets it 100% and wants an annulment.

VIC REFUSES AND NOT ONLY THAT, MOVES INTO HER APARTMENT.  MOVES IN.  TO HER.  APARTMENT.  AND WON'T LEAVE.

The rest of the season is Vic trying to win Val over even though she rejects him again and again, every single day, dozens of times.

The show also paints Vic as the Perfect Man.  Suddenly he's a firefighter who also cooks well and does carpentry.   TWO SEASONS AGO HE WAS A PR EXEC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   And now suddenly he's JESUS ON A FIREMAN CALENDAR?!?!?!?!?!??!?!   If it wasn't for all the Botox Dan Cortese got in between seasons he would be unassailable. 

To make matters worse, Val is presented as in denial about her feelings and her two most trusted confidants, her sister and her best friend, all push her to be with Vic.

It sends a horrible message to women, and to make matters worse Amanda was not even an adult when this show started, so who knows how young the girls are that watched this show.

Bad!

I realize that Ross Geller did a mini version of this in season 6 of Friends, that only lasted a day or so.  I realize that.  And it makes sense, since WILAY ripped off dozens of plotlines from Friends even the ones that were so microscopically specific.  But Ross is nothing compared to Vic.

Edit:  Actually, now that I think about it, was Vic even drunk that night they eloped?  I'll have to rewatch.  But Val definitely was and she was on the rebound.  She was taken advantage of.

Edit again:  Ok, rewatching it.  Vic spotted Val who was almost blackout drunk, then proceeded to get drunk WITH her.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

I thought of another good example.  The character that Dave Foley plays on New Adventures of Old Christine.  Another one of my favourite shows.  Does anyone else know this show well?  Like the above show, (WILAY as I shorten it to), I have seen the episodes for TNAoOC a whole bunch of times.

Same old story.  Christine has ZERO INTEREST in Dave's character and doesn't even remember the many times she has met him.  (Why should she?  She's dated characters played by the likes of BLAIR UNDERWOOD).  He just keeps trying to wear her down over and over again until she finally agrees to go on a date with him, after many rejections.

It's been awhile since I've rewatched the show so I forget what exactly made me so uncomfortable but every time I see him I feel unhappy.  That's how much this portrayal bothered me.

I found some of the quotes online

Quote

Tom: I am attracted to you enough for both of us.

Ew. Also her brother says to give him a chance and that "spark" is overrated.  (Easy for him to say.  He's 10 years younger than Christine and dates every blonde in sight.). 

[Cinnabon]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:33 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Okay Ross Geller is child's play LOL.

You guys want the ultimate Nice Guy on TV?

Does anyone watch "What I Like About You"?  It's a cute sitcom from the 2000s set in NYC starring Amanda Bynes and Jennie Garth as sisters.  Even though they're like 20 years apart.  But ok.

I genuinely love this show but boy, is it flawed.  I don't remember when I first saw the whole run.  It wasn't when it originally aired but a bit later.  I loved it and didn't notice the flaws.

But the second time I watched it oohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh boy.  The two major love interests on the show, Vince (Nick Zano) and Vic (Dan Cortese) are extremely problematic.

In Season 2 of the show, Val (Jennie Garth) works for Vic (Dan Cortese) in PR.   Vic does not appear in Season 3.

In Season 4 of the show, Val and Vic start the season by drunkenly eloping in Vegas.

Val says it was a huge mistake, she's never done anything like this before, she regrets it 100% and wants an annulment.

VIC REFUSES AND NOT ONLY THAT, MOVES INTO HER APARTMENT.  MOVES IN.  TO HER.  APARTMENT.  AND WON'T LEAVE.

The rest of the season is Vic trying to win Val over even though she rejects him again and again, every single day, dozens of times.

The show also paints Vic as the Perfect Man.  Suddenly he's a firefighter who also cooks well and does carpentry.   TWO SEASONS AGO HE WAS A PR EXEC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   And now suddenly he's JESUS ON A FIREMAN CALENDAR?!?!?!?!?!??!?!   If it wasn't for all the Botox Dan Cortese got in between seasons he would be unassailable. 

To make matters worse, Val is presented as in denial about her feelings and her two most trusted confidants, her sister and her best friend, all push her to be with Vic.

It sends a horrible message to women, and to make matters worse Amanda was not even an adult when this show started, so who knows how young the girls are that watched this show.

Bad!

I realize that Ross Geller did a mini version of this in season 6 of Friends, that only lasted a day or so.  I realize that.  And it makes sense, since WILAY ripped off dozens of plotlines from Friends even the ones that were so microscopically specific.  But Ross is nothing compared to Vic.

Edit:  Actually, now that I think about it, was Vic even drunk that night they eloped?  I'll have to rewatch.  But Val definitely was and she was on the rebound.  She was taken advantage of.

Edit again:  Ok, rewatching it.  Vic spotted Val who was almost blackout drunk, then proceeded to get drunk WITH her.

I didn’t watch that show, but I ever could stand Dan Cortese, lol. Thank god he disappeared.

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I thought of another good example.  The character that Dave Foley plays on New Adventures of Old Christine.  Another one of my favourite shows.  Does anyone else know this show well?  Like the above show, (WILAY as I shorten it to), I have seen the episodes for TNAoOC a whole bunch of times.

Same old story.  Christine has ZERO INTEREST in Dave's character and doesn't even remember the many times she has met him.  (Why should she?  She's dated characters played by the likes of BLAIR UNDERWOOD).  He just keeps trying to wear her down over and over again until she finally agrees to go on a date with him, after many rejections.

It's been awhile since I've rewatched the show so I forget what exactly made me so uncomfortable but every time I see him I feel unhappy.  That's how much this portrayal bothered me.

I found some of the quotes online

Ew. Also her brother says to give him a chance and that "spark" is overrated.  (Easy for him to say.  He's 10 years younger than Christine and dates every blonde in sight.). 

Yes! That’s also one of my favorite shows of all time. The Dave Foley character arc was hilarious.

And there’s a connection between the 2 shows - Elaine on Seinfeld dated Dan Cortese’a irritating Seinfeld character for an episode or 2.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Ms Blue Jay]

Dan Cortese was great on that one episode of Seinfeld he did.  He was considered hot back then.  But his portrayal of Vic skeeves me out big time.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Dan Cortese was great on that one episode of Seinfeld he did.  He was considered hot back then.  But his portrayal of Vic skeeves me out big time.

I never thought he was hot. But George did on Seinfeld. 😂

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:46 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I thought of another good example.  The character that Dave Foley plays on New Adventures of Old Christine.

Not only does Dave Foley play this trope on Old Christine, but he plays it on Hot in Cleveland as well.  He is the extremely creepy boss of Jane Leeves's character Joy, and he's obsessed with her, and he won't stop hitting on her every single episode.  This example is much worse than Old Christine because he's in wayyyyyyyyy more episodes doing this trope without pause.  Plus, the characters work together.  Why do writers think we like this so much?  What do writers find funny about this premise?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Scarlett45]

@Ms Blue Jay I just had to point out that in “What I like about you”- the sisters have a different mom, the age gap makes sense, and they live together to get to know each other better. (I think their Dad and Amanda Byne’s mom move for a job). 
 

Ditto on the rest of it. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

44 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

@Ms Blue Jay I just had to point out that in “What I like about you”- the sisters have a different mom, the age gap makes sense, and they live together to get to know each other better. (I think their Dad and Amanda Byne’s mom move for a job). 
 

Ditto on the rest of it. 

The Dad moved to Japan for a job.  Holly begged her father to live with Val in NYC.  I'm pretty sure their mother died before the show even started.

I'm going to look this up now.

I've never seen one mother let alone two mothers on the show.

You can look up the script to the pilot.  I cannot find any instance of the word "mother" or "mom".

https://subslikescript.com/series/What_I_Like_About_You-321018/season-1/episode-1-Pilot

Quote

Holly's father is moving to Japan, so the teen moves in with her sister, but worries that she will not be wanted there.

I Google'd it, and this site claims their mother died too:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/WhatILikeAboutYou

Quote

Missing Mom: Holly and Val's mother died.

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

The Dad moved to Japan for a job.  Holly begged her father to live with Val in NYC.  I'm pretty sure their mother died before the show even started.

I'm going to look this up now.

I've never seen one mother let alone two mothers on the show.

You can look up the script to the pilot.  I cannot find any instance of the word "mother" or "mom".

https://subslikescript.com/series/What_I_Like_About_You-321018/season-1/episode-1-Pilot

I Google'd it, and this site claims their mother died too:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/WhatILikeAboutYou

 

Well see what I know! Thank you!

 

I’m fan theorizing that Val was conceived when they were teens, they waited to have a second child. I have co-worker that’s 22yrs older than her little sister (same scenario). 

[andromeda331]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:58 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Not only does Dave Foley play this trope on Old Christine, but he plays it on Hot in Cleveland as well.  He is the extremely creepy boss of Jane Leeves's character Joy, and he's obsessed with her, and he won't stop hitting on her every single episode.  This example is much worse than Old Christine because he's in wayyyyyyyyy more episodes doing this trope without pause.  Plus, the characters work together.  Why do writers think we like this so much?  What do writers find funny about this premise?

He also played Brick's creepy school therapist the Middle. One episode he's creepily stalking Brick before talking to him about making friends, and most of the time talks about the creepy stalking he does of his ex-wife. He shouldn't be around women or kids.