Figure Skating

[Good Queen Jane]

14 minutes ago, anniebird said:

I don't understand so much about this Rostelecom Cup - I'm used to the signs all around the arena but is there always crap all over the ice too? And the Kiss and Cry area looks like a gas station convenience store with the ice cream bars and all the signs in back of them. They're not all like this are they?

No, usually the Kiss and Cry area just has a backdrop with the name of the competition. Some this year had a video screen where the competitor's family could be seen watching, I spent most of Friday trying to figure out what the ice cream bars were.

[Maelstrom]

21 hours ago, Domenicholas said:

One thing I've been thinking about: with the practice of replacing Russian female wonderkids every two years, will we even remember any of them in ten, twenty years time. People still talk about Yuna Kim, Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, Michelle Kwan, etc., but how many people bring up Yulia, or Evgenia, or even Olympic champion Alina? I feel that Russia will get a legacy of female champions, but those champions won't become legendary themselves. I like Kamila Valieva due to her athleticism and artistry, but I can't get attached to her because in two years the next Russian wonderkid is going to force her out.

Honestly, I can't keep them straight now and have no interest in watching or remembering any of them since, as you say, they are replaced by the next batch within a season (or less). I haven't found the Russian takeover in ladies skating enjoyable to watch for years now, and actually stopped bothering for several years. But I came back because there are still some amazing skaters out there and I hate to miss them. So the only way I can get through ladies skating is by fast forwarding all of the Russian skaters (except Eliza, depending on my mood).

17 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

From what I have heard/read, it punishing ice time/training, little to eat or drink, PEDs (allegedly) and a dose of fear.  It sounds like a never ending bootcamp to me. 

I'm a dummy... what are PEDs?

Five Russians at GPF for the ladies? What a joke. I would love if Kaori can take gold. Also, so happy for Jason! 🥰

[KittenPokerCheater]

14 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

what are PEDs?

Performance Enhancing drugs. For examples,Steroids, meldonium, things that are illegal- but to be fair, Meldonium wasn't banned until a couple of years ago.

It was so rampant with the Russians In their Socchi olympics and that is why the Russians aren't allowed to compete under their own flag.  

Obviously, Russians are far from the only country where athletes use banned substances (see: Lance Armstrong), but Russia was very egregious (state sponsored?).

[Lady Whistleup]

I personally would love if Valieva won because there's such Islamophobia in Russia and around the world and some gross stereotypes about Muslim women. It'd be great for someone who is proud of her Tatar/Islamic heritage to win.

Props to Alina Zagitova and Aliya Mustafina as well. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[honeywest]

I want to see Sakamoto and Tuktamysheva on the podium. Valieva would be my top choice of Eteri’s girls.

[Avaleigh]

4 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

onestly, I can't keep them straight now and have no interest in watching or remembering any of them since, as you say, they are replaced by the next batch within a season (or less). I haven't found the Russian takeover in ladies skating enjoyable to watch for years now, and actually stopped bothering for several years. But I came back because there are still some amazing skaters out there and I hate to miss them. So the only way I can get through ladies skating is by fast forwarding all of the Russian skaters (except Eliza, depending on my mood).

To be fair, Anna Shcherbakova has won Russian Nationals three years in a row so I wouldn't exactly say that she's been a flash in the pan that people will quickly forget about. With Trusova, while I admit that I'm not a fan of her skating, I'll give credit where credit is due and acknowledge that she's set enough records and had enough firsts to land ____ that I feel like she'll be remembered even if she doesn't make the Olympic team. Alina Zagitova will be remembered and not just for being a world and Olympic champion. They had to change the rules just becuase of her 2018 program, so she'll always be remembered as the girl in the red tutu who backloaded her program to win an Olympic gold medal. 

With Kamila obviously it's too early to tell whether or not she'll stick around for more seasons after this Olympics, but based on everything she's done for the past couple of years, I think she's a skater who is worth the time for fans of the sport to check out. Her skating skills are superior, her spins are excellent and that triple axel is flawless. 

Aliona and Daria are beautiful skaters. They are memorable and worth talking about even though they're currently being outshined by some of their countrymen. 

Not everyone can have a reign like Michelle Kwan. It doesn't mean they aren't worth watching even if they only stick around for one Olympic cycle. 

[Lady Whistleup]

26 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

To be fair, Anna Shcherbakova has won Russian Nationals three years in a row so I wouldn't exactly say that she's been a flash in the pan that people will quickly forget about. With Trusova, while I admit that I'm not a fan of her skating, I'll give credit where credit is due and acknowledge that she's set enough records and had enough firsts to land ____ that I feel like she'll be remembered even if she doesn't make the Olympic team. Alina Zagitova will be remembered and not just for being a world and Olympic champion. They had to change the rules just becuase of her 2018 program, so she'll always be remembered as the girl in the red tutu who backloaded her program to win an Olympic gold medal. 

With Kamila obviously it's too early to tell whether or not she'll stick around for more seasons after this Olympics, but based on everything she's done for the past couple of years, I think she's a skater who is worth the time for fans of the sport to check out. Her skating skills are superior, her spins are excellent and that triple axel is flawless. 

Aliona and Daria are beautiful skaters. They are memorable and worth talking about even though they're currently being outshined by some of their countrymen. 

Not everyone can have a reign like Michelle Kwan. It doesn't mean they aren't worth watching even if they only stick around for one Olympic cycle. 

If I could like this post 1000x I could. You just summed up my exact feelings about the ladies field.

I actually think this is one of the strongest fields we've had in years. We have four top-tier skaters who combine technique with artistry (Kamila, Anna, Alysa, and Aliona), two top skaters who are incredibly strong jumpers (Liza and Sasha), and some beautiful skaters just out of medal contention (Kaori, Mariah, Karen). This field is actually great.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I actually think this is one of the strongest fields we've had in years. We have four top-tier skaters who combine technique with artistry (Kamila, Anna, Alysa, and Aliona), two top skaters who are incredibly strong jumpers (Liza and Sasha), and some beautiful skaters just out of medal contention (Kaori, Mariah, Karen). This field is actually great.

We really do have a strong group of ladies right now. I'll add Rika, Loena and You Young to your list. 

One more point about the Russian ladies currently dominating the sport. I think it's ultimately going to make the ladies from other countries feel like they need to up their game and to me that's a good thing. 

[annzeepark914]

26 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

One more point about the Russian ladies currently dominating the sport. I think it's ultimately going to make the ladies from other countries feel like they need to up their game and to me that's a good thing. 

I've been wondering about our programs in the US & Canada, thinking about girls in rinks today. They're watching Kamila, jump after jump with hands overhead--all the while skating her programs (especially her SP) with artistry & elegance. Has anyone seen arms over head while doing at least doubles (amongst the younger girls) at local competitions? 

[healthnut]

Japan is set to close their borders on Wednesday to foreigners so the Grand Prix Final is very much in jeopardy. No word on when a decision will be made but it doesn’t look good today. 

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, healthnut said:

Japan is set to close their borders on Wednesday to foreigners so the Grand Prix Final is very much in jeopardy. No word on when a decision will be made but it doesn’t look good today. 

I read they're going to have a bubble environment for the event. 

[ChicksDigScars]

I didn't even bother watching Rostelecom Cup. As if Mariah Bell was going to be on the podium in a Russian held ISU event? Come now. And Vicky and Nikki were never going to lose. Having one country dominate across the board will make even hard core fans lose interest, let alone the casual fan that only pays attention every four years.

And LOL to Madison Hubbell claiming that they expect to win the OGM. Not even she believes that, unless she knows something about Gabby's costume, and the check from the Russian Federation bounces. At this point, it seems that H/D's pre-ordained silver might even be in question.

 

[Chaser]

Charlie White and Tanith Belbin announced they are opening up an Ice Dance School (Michigan Ice Dance Academy) next year. I think that’s pretty cool.

They are partnering with another former skater/current coach. I’m not familiar with him, Greg something. 

[HartofDixie]

Just now, Chaser said:

Charlie White and Tanith Belbin announced they are opening up an Ice Dance School (Michigan Ice Dance Academy) next year. I think that’s pretty cool.

They are partnering with another former skater/current coach. I’m not familiar with him, Greg something. 

Greg used to skate with Madison Chock.

https://www.michiganicedanceacademy.com/

[healthnut]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

They are partnering with another former skater/current coach. I’m not familiar with him, Greg something.

Greg Zuerlein

And no word on Grand Prix final yet  

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by healthnut

[Jillibean]

7 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

And LOL to Madison Hubbell claiming that they expect to win the OGM. Not even she believes that, unless she knows something about Gabby's costume, and the check from the Russian Federation bounces. At this point, it seems that H/D's pre-ordained silver might even be in question.

 

Oh, I think S/K have vaulted right over them and will get their "skating while Russian" bonus to put them in silver. I think H/D, C/B, and G/P are all duking it out for the bronze, though H/D definitely seem to have the political momentum at the moment. 

I wonder if this means Tanith is giving up her NBC commentary position. 

[Tippi]

I honestly would not be surprised if S/K win Olympic gold over P/C.

Eteri's skaters are very talented.  I just have to wonder why no other country can replicate her results.   Rika came the closest, but it looks like she is too injured to compete. 

Terry asked Johnny about why Eteri's skaters are so successful.  He airily replied she tells them skate like there is no tomorrow.  Yeah, Johnny, that's it!  But to be honest, I've never heard any commentator touch training techniques and regimens on the air.  It wasn't until the US Gymnastics horror came to light that it was discussed openly in that sport.

[Maelstrom]

1 hour ago, Tippi said:

Terry asked Johnny about why Eteri's skaters are so successful.  He airily replied she tells them skate like there is no tomorrow.  Yeah, Johnny, that's it!

🤣🙄

The day that Johnny criticizes anything Russian is the day that NBC will start airing all figure skating events in a way that's easy and accessible for everyone to view, lol.

[honeywest]

I liked Chock and Zuerlein much better than Chock and Bates.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I honestly would not be surprised if S/K win Olympic gold over P/C.

Any bobble from P/C and S/K will win.  Given how political ice dancing is, I wouldn't be surprised.

I know it's a long shot, but I would love C/B to get the bronze.  I don't think the free dance is good enough though.  :(

Johnny Weir ticks me off.  I feel like he's saying "No one will ever catch the Russian ladies in the medal hunt until the other skaters are treated as inhumanely as Eteri treats hers."  

[specialj67]

31 minutes ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

 

Any bobble from P/C and S/K will win.  Given how political ice dancing is, I wouldn't be surprised.

I know it's a long shot, but I would love C/B to get the bronze.  I don't think the free dance is good enough though.  :(

Johnny Weir ticks me off.  I feel like he's saying "No one will ever catch the Russian ladies in the medal hunt until the other skaters are treated as inhumanely as Eteri treats hers."  

I’d also be stoked if Chock and Bates get a medal at the Olympics! Their free program is growing on me the more I see them perform it; it’s way more interesting than Hubbell and Donohue, IMO. 
 

and really, did anyone ever think Johnny Weir would say something approaching open and honest regarding the Sambo 70 group? I’m hard pressed to think of any figure skating commentator who would speak honestly on national TV about the disordered eating and punishing training those girls and young women likely experience.

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I didn't even bother watching Rostelecom Cup. As if Mariah Bell was going to be on the podium in a Russian held ISU event? Come now.

She was actually the bronze medalist at Rostelecom two years ago.

 

[Avaleigh]

23 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I didn't even bother watching Rostelecom Cup. As if Mariah Bell was going to be on the podium in a Russian held ISU event? Come now. And Vicky and Nikki were never going to lose. Having one country dominate across the board will make even hard core fans lose interest, let alone the casual fan that only pays attention every four years.

I love Mariah's skating but she wasn't her best at Rostelecom so I feel like it's unreasonable to be upset that she didn't medal here. No triple triple combo in either short or long, hand down on the triple salchow, etc. Even with her short program not being at its full potential she was still sitting in third going into the long.

Wrt one country dominating the sport--is this really that new of a thing? Skipping past the Soviet Era where they dominated in pairs and dance--1994 was dominated by Russia. 3 golds and two silvers plus a gold for Ukraine. 1998 again 3 gold medals. 2006 3 golds. The main difference now is that the men aren't as strong as they used to be and it's the ladies who are dominating. 

I bring this up because skating was still bringing in viewers back then so I'm not really sure that it's about one country dominating that's making some people lose interest in the sport. I feel like most fans of the sport appreciate quality skating no matter which country the skaters happen to come from. (I acknowledge that this might not be the same for casual viewers.)

Another thing that's interesting is that people weren't making the same complaints when the US women were dominating the sport for over a decade. (The US have turned out more Olympic ladies champions than any other country.) In 1998 the top two ladies at the Olympics were from the US. In 1992 and 2002 the top four ladies were from the US. The US ladies swept the world podium in 1991. Russia does the same thing for the first time this year and there are fans who are annoyed about it.

I thought it was wrong for Trusova to win bronze at Worlds this year (I think it should have been Karen or Loena) but I'm still super impressed with everything that Russia has achieved in ladies figure skating in the past six or so years. 

 

In any case there are still non Russian stand outs in all of the other disciplines. There are plenty of skaters worth watching and rooting for for the fans who are in the anyone-but-Russia camp. I'm particularly excited to see how well Japan does in the team event next year. They have the best shot they've ever had to medal.

Wrt to PEDs and whether or not that's at play here-- it's not impossible for me to believe given the country's history. My question is--if they have access to PEDs that are currently undetectable or not on the banned list or whatever it is that may or may not be going on--why don't the men seem to have access to the same stuff? The men used to be a dominant force in the sport and at the moment they aren't particularly strong. 

Whatever the case may be, these girls obviously work very hard to take the sport to the next level, so I'm excited to see what they bring to the big competitions this season. I'm looking forward to Russian nationals more than any other competition save the Olympics. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I'm really uncomfortable with figure skating fans and the Russian girls. People on social media are so judgmental about them. I've seen them called the b-word, saying they're sluts, and people forget that these are 15-17 year old girls. 

[ChicksDigScars]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

She was actually the bronze medalist at Rostelecom two years ago.

 

I'm talking about now. With five of the six GP Finalists being Russian. Two years ago, the Russians were somewhat challenged by more than one of the Japanese ladies. Now? Not so much. It's all Russia, all the time. 

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the Ice Dance was judged fairly, but it certainly seems that something happened in 2019 that S/K were suddenly shoved onto the podium, and even beat P/C. I'm pulling for Sui and Han SO MUCH for the OGM. If they falter, the podium will be Russian dominated. The men are the only one without the likelihood of a Russian medalist. Ladies will likely be a medals sweep, and pairs will have at least two. Dance will have one, unless S/K have a meltdown. Even the days when the U.S. "dominated" the ladies, it was a special occasion when a U.S. pair medaled, and Tanith and Ben were occasionally on an international podium. We had strong ladies and usually a men's medalist. Hardly what we're seeing now. 

Gymnastics seemed to bend over backwards to stop the U.S. dominance in their sport. From reducing the numbers of gymnasts from one country who qualify for events, to shrinking the team event from seven gymnasts per squad, to five, and now four. 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by ChicksDigScars

[KittenPokerCheater]

I guess I never thought that the usa ladies were dominating the sport for ten years.  I felt that the two who got gold) were terrifically lucky- good technique and the skate of their lives.  There wasn't really longevity.  The only skater who I think who could be called Dominating would be MIchelle Kwan, but part of this is because she skated for so long. I don't think they ever swept the podium.

It's terrible that people are being so cruel to the Russians.  They do not deserve such treatment.

[HartofDixie]

23 hours ago, specialj67 said:

I’d also be stoked if Chock and Bates get a medal at the Olympics! Their free program is growing on me the more I see them perform it; it’s way more interesting than Hubbell and Donohue, IMO. 
 

and really, did anyone ever think Johnny Weir would say something approaching open and honest regarding the Sambo 70 group? I’m hard pressed to think of any figure skating commentator who would speak honestly on national TV about the disordered eating and punishing training those girls and young women likely experience.

I'd like C/B and H/D to split the team event and both get a medal then G/P can get the bronze.  Unless Canada can get a team medal but Japan will most like medal with the US and Russia.

[HartofDixie]

https://www.usfigureskating.org/news/article/michigan-ice-dance-academy-open-2022

[CeeBeeGee]

13 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

I thought it was wrong for Trusova to win bronze at Worlds this year (I think it should have been Karen or Loena) but I'm still super impressed with everything that Russia has achieved in ladies figure skating in the past six or so years. 

YES. I actually quite like Trusova's athleticism and tricks but man, she was the human zamboni at Worlds. Placing her over two such gorgeous skates by Karen just makes the sport look bad.

9 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Gymnastics seemed to bend over backwards to stop the U.S. dominance in their sport. From reducing the numbers of gymnasts from one country who qualify for events, to shrinking the team event from seven gymnasts per squad, to five, and now four. 

But that trend started before the US became so dominant (around 2011, although the Russians still had a shot to take team gold in London). The 6-3-3 system started around the turn of the century and the two-per rules (certainly the one re: AA final) was put in place after some federations grumbled about the Romanians sweeping the podium. (Which was ridiculous--they were the best that day! Instead of instituting a rule change--help your gymnasts get better! Step up tp the plate. The two-per country, for the AA final at least, is utterly ridiculous when the 4th-finishing gymnast--who is also the current World AA champion (Jordyn) is denied a spot.) I firmly maintain--and I said this in an interview--that Bruno Grandi hated the sport and was trying to destroy it. He made so many stupid decisions.

[Avaleigh]

11 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I guess I never thought that the usa ladies were dominating the sport for ten years.  I felt that the two who got gold) were terrifically lucky- good technique and the skate of their lives.  There wasn't really longevity. The only skater who I think who could be called Dominating would be MIchelle Kwan, but part of this is because she skated for so long. I don't think they ever swept the podium.

It's terrible that people are being so cruel to the Russians.  They do not deserve such treatment.

When I said the US ladies had a period where they dominated, I was mostly referring to 1992-2002 but now that I'm really thinking about it, it stretches longer than that. Jill Trenary and Kristi were world champions for 1990-1992. Nancy didn't win (she should have) but the US still had a favorite for the podium in 1994. Michelle's reign solidified in 1996 and then we had Tara, Sasha and Sarah that were part of this period where the US ladies had a very deep field that continued into the late 2000s. The American ladies didn't stop having genuine medal contenders until 2018. 

Another mark of how dominant the US ladies used to be? Junior Worlds. The Russian ladies own Junior Worlds these days but the US ladies used to be the ones to beat. They've had just as many gold medalists as Russia and in 2007 and 2008 US ladies swept the podium. 

Wrt longevity, as with the Russians, most of the US ladies only stayed competitive for about one Olympic cycle give or take a season. 

I think the biggest difference between the period where the US dominated vs Russia dominating now is that almost all of the Russian ladies are being coached by the same team. With the Americans skaters it didn't feel like they were coming out of a factory the way that it sometimes feels with Eteri's girls. 

[specialj67]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

I think the biggest difference between the period where the US dominated vs Russia dominating now is that almost all of the Russian ladies are being coached by the same team. With the Americans skaters it didn't feel like they were coming out of a factory the way that it sometimes feels with Eteri's girls. 

THIS! 

[Jillibean]

The Russian women/girls absolutely deserve the support of the figure skating community and the world in general, and I think it's terrible that frustration with the country or their technical superiority or their coaches falls onto them. What makes me uneasy about the Russian assembly line of champions is that Russia, like China, is not a free country the way most of the developed western world is. These girls don't have the same freedoms to choose to participate or not to begin with, let alone to consent to the training methods being used. When one of them is pushed off the assembly line by a new rising star after a few years, it's not at all clear that they're given the emotional or mental health support needed to cope with that. They've been training, all-consumingly, since they were little kids, for a career that ends abruptly after a few seasons. That can't be easy to deal with. It does remind me of the American gymnastics scandal in some ways--I mean, the reason those things went unnoticed for so long is because they were mimicking a system that removed as many of the supports athletes typically get in a free country as possible, like barring parents who could act as advocates and centralizing the training. When you have ten women who could win the gold, you don't worry as much about the effects of overtraining or undernourishing because if one goes down there's another ready to take her place. And the dominance that Russia is experiencing is obviously reinforcing the system as is. I don't know for sure that emotional abuse or restriction or harsh methods or fear or basically a figure skating dictatorship is what's happening there. But I don't know that it's not, and it leaves me feeling highly ambivalent about Russia's success in the sport. 

I do think it's interesting that even at the last Olympics, Mirai landing a triple axel was a big, huge deal. Before her, you could count on one hand the number of women to do that. Now, only four years later, they're practically commonplace and if you can't do one, or a quad, you have no competitive chance. As someone who is not fluent in skating, I personally would love Johnny or anyone to weigh in on how this happened. Is it training the jump earlier in developing skaters? Just the pressure of having to be able to do it now to be competitive, forcing people to focus on it whereas before it was a "bonus"? And it's not just Russia--skaters from Japan and South Korea also seem to be doing them with ease. (I'm not counting Alysa because hers has become quite inconsistent). I truly would like the insight into the axel revolution. 

[healthnut]

The International Skating Union advised today it was informed by the Japan Skating Federation (JSF) that the 2021 Grand Prix Final, scheduled to take place Dec. 9 – 12 in Osaka (JPN) cannot be held as planned.

Press Release:
 
Unfortunately, considering the complicated epidemic situation involving travel restrictions, quarantine requirements, safety concerns and logistical challenges, the organization of the event was extremely challenging. The JSF and the Local Organizing Committee tried their best to find solutions but ultimately concluded that, regrettably, they are unable to organize and hold the event as planned.
 
The ISU regrets that the hosting of the event is no longer possible in Osaka in December. The ISU will evaluate a possible postponement to hold the Event at the end of the season and will make a decision as soon as possible. The ISU thanks the Japan Skating Federation for their efforts and cooperation.

[Jeddah]

2 hours ago, healthnut said:

The International Skating Union advised today it was informed by the Japan Skating Federation (JSF) that the 2021 Grand Prix Final, scheduled to take place Dec. 9 – 12 in Osaka (JPN) cannot be held as planned.

Press Release:
 
Unfortunately, considering the complicated epidemic situation involving travel restrictions, quarantine requirements, safety concerns and logistical challenges, the organization of the event was extremely challenging. The JSF and the Local Organizing Committee tried their best to find solutions but ultimately concluded that, regrettably, they are unable to organize and hold the event as planned.
 
The ISU regrets that the hosting of the event is no longer possible in Osaka in December. The ISU will evaluate a possible postponement to hold the Event at the end of the season and will make a decision as soon as possible. The ISU thanks the Japan Skating Federation for their efforts and cooperation.

Disappointing, but probably the best decision. It does save the American skaters from traveling so far, so hopefully they can use the extra time to prepare for the chaotic months ahead.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I am sad that it’s been postponed and/or cancelled.  It’s definitely the right thing to do until we know more about the new variant.  

BUT, knowing how elite athletes plan, have a schedule to reach their peak at the right time during the season, I can see how this will be a psychological blow.  

@Avaleigh- I had not looked at it that way before.  You are right.

[Avaleigh]

4 hours ago, Jillibean said:

I do think it's interesting that even at the last Olympics, Mirai landing a triple axel was a big, huge deal. Before her, you could count on one hand the number of women to do that. Now, only four years later, they're practically commonplace and if you can't do one, or a quad, you have no competitive chance. As someone who is not fluent in skating, I personally would love Johnny or anyone to weigh in on how this happened. Is it training the jump earlier in developing skaters? Just the pressure of having to be able to do it now to be competitive, forcing people to focus on it whereas before it was a "bonus"? And it's not just Russia--skaters from Japan and South Korea also seem to be doing them with ease. (I'm not counting Alysa because hers has become quite inconsistent). I truly would like the insight into the axel revolution. 

Getting a jump when a skater is young is absolutely key. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva as an example was landing clean triple axels by the time she was ten. Midori Ito started training it when she was in her early teens. Mirai started using it competitively "late" in her career but she was attempting them in practice years before she felt confident enough to include it in a program. Sofya Akatyeva and Veronika Zhilina, who are currently ruling the jgp scene, have had their triple axels and quads since before they hit their teens.

What's interesting about the Eteri girls is that it seems easier for them to get quads than triple axels. My guess is because they don't really have strong technique on their double axels. (Even that jumping bean Trusova hasn't been able to get a consistent triple axel.) 

It would not surprise me in the least to learn that the Sambo 70 skating environment is extremely harsh. We know Julia Lipnitskaya suffered from anorexia and Evgenia had a difficult time emotionally once she begin to realize she was no longer competitive enough to make the Russian team. OTOH Alina Zagitova seems like she's adjusted well now that she's no longer competing. 

[Lady Whistleup]

10 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Getting a jump when a skater is young is absolutely key. Elizaveta Tuktamysheva as an example was landing clean triple axels by the time she was ten. Midori Ito started training it when she was in her early teens. Mirai started using it competitively "late" in her career but she was attempting them in practice years before she felt confident enough to include it in a program. Sofya Akatyeva and Veronika Zhilina, who are currently ruling the jgp scene, have had their triple axels and quads since before they hit their teens.

What's interesting about the Eteri girls is that it seems easier for them to get quads than triple axels. My guess is because they don't really have strong technique on their double axels. (Even that jumping bean Trusova hasn't been able to get a consistent triple axel.) 

One thing is many "Eteri girls" only got sent to Eteri when they showed enormous promise. Like Kamila learned how to skate from someone else, so did Aliona Kostornaia. Kamila only switched over to Sambo 70 in 2018.

I don't think it's an accident that both Kamila and Aliona are known for their triple axels, while the other Eteri girls struggle with axel technique. 

Also, from what I understand Eteri is nowadays more of a manager than a technical coach. She has a large staff of people who work on the technical details.

[Avaleigh]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

One thing is many "Eteri girls" only got sent to Eteri when they showed enormous promise. Like Kamila learned how to skate from someone else, so did Aliona Kostornaia. Kamila only switched over to Sambo 70 in 2018.

I don't think it's an accident that both Kamila and Aliona are known for their triple axels, while the other Eteri girls struggle with axel technique. 

Also, from what I understand Eteri is nowadays more of a manager than a technical coach. She has a large staff of people who work on the technical details.

Adding to this, I think this is key for why Aliona and Kamila have stronger overall skating skills than some of the girls who've been with Eteri's team longer.

Yes too that she's not a technical coach. To me she comes off like more of a manager/agent than a traditional skating coach. She takes a lot of their earnings that's for sure.

A lot of this came up during the Evgeny vs. Eteri twitter feud. Evgeny called her out for poaching skaters from other coaches and said that she didn't know how to build a skater from the ground up.

[Harry24]

On 12/2/2021 at 1:34 PM, Avaleigh said:

Adding to this, I think this is key for why Aliona and Kamila have stronger overall skating skills than some of the girls who've been with Eteri's team longer.

Yes too that she's not a technical coach. To me she comes off like more of a manager/agent than a traditional skating coach. She takes a lot of their earnings that's for sure.

A lot of this came up during the Evgeny vs. Eteri twitter feud. Evgeny called her out for poaching skaters from other coaches and said that she didn't know how to build a skater from the ground up.

All that being true ... how the hell do so many of her female skaters get those quads?!!  Is the theory that the same uber talented skaters would have been doing quads had they stayed with their previous coaches?  And, secondly, how do so many of her female skaters turn out to be such powerful competitors?

I am very suspicious that Eteri’s school is indeed a hotbed of abuse, and as a fan I hate that so many of the top skaters have such atrocious choreography (which has all but killed my interest in the ladies event,) but I have to admit I am fascinated by how the hell she’s turning out all these quad-jumping winners.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Harry24

[Lady Whistleup]

20 minutes ago, Harry24 said:

All that being true ... how the hell do so many of her female skaters get those quads?!!  Is the theory that the same uber talented skaters would have been doing quads had they stayed with their previous coaches?  And, secondly, how do so many of her female skaters turn out to be such powerful competitors?

I’m am very suspicious that Eteri’s school is indeed a hotbed of abuse, and as a fan I hate that so many of the top skaters have such atrocious choreography which has all but killed my interest in the ladies event, but I have to admit I am fascinated by how the hell she’s turning out all these quad-jumping winners.

I think Elena Bechke said that in Russia, skaters are given a three year plan. They document which jumps and skills they want to work on and goals for competition. If by the end of the three years they haven't lived up to the promise, they are let go from skating academies. So from a very early age skating is quite literally a job, complete with HR-like APPR's. I think that environment makes it more likely that only the strongest and toughest skaters survive. 

[DawnDavenport]

On 12/1/2021 at 9:07 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

YES. I actually quite like Trusova's athleticism and tricks but man, she was the human zamboni at Worlds. Placing her over two such gorgeous skates by Karen just makes the sport look bad.

But that trend started before the US became so dominant (around 2011, although the Russians still had a shot to take team gold in London). The 6-3-3 system started around the turn of the century and the two-per rules (certainly the one re: AA final) was put in place after some federations grumbled about the Romanians sweeping the podium. (Which was ridiculous--they were the best that day! Instead of instituting a rule change--help your gymnasts get better! Step up tp the plate. The two-per country, for the AA final at least, is utterly ridiculous when the 4th-finishing gymnast--who is also the current World AA champion (Jordyn) is denied a spot.) I firmly maintain--and I said this in an interview--that Bruno Grandi hated the sport and was trying to destroy it. He made so many stupid decisions.

6-3-3 and the 24 two-per country AA started with the new code in the 2001 quadrennium after the Sydney Olympics. The 2001 code of points was such a drastic change (it was often called the death code) that the plan was for it to stay in effect through 2008. I remember at 2001 Worlds, a score in the 9.1-9.3 range was considered great. Of course the Athens Men's AA scoring disaster changed that plan.

The US dominance really didn't begin until after Athens and even then, their success was mostly at the individual level at the Worlds and Olympics. It certainly pales in comparison to the USSR and Romania teams in the 60s - early 00s. It wasn't until after Beijing that the team really started dominating along with the individual gymnasts. 

Of course I'll take the US finishing 2nd or 3rd to the abject abuse and neglect that was allowed to run rampant during the years the US was winning everything in site.

Part of the reduction in both the team and AA sizes wasn't completely in the hands of the FIG, I believe the IOC forced the FIG to reduce the number of artistic gymnasts so this resulted in the extreme changes to both the team and AA. 

[ShellsandCheese]

On 12/2/2021 at 1:25 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I think Elena Bechke said that in Russia, skaters are given a three year plan. They document which jumps and skills they want to work on and goals for competition. If by the end of the three years they haven't lived up to the promise, they are let go from skating academies. So from a very early age skating is quite literally a job, complete with HR-like APPR's. I think that environment makes it more likely that only the strongest and toughest skaters survive. 

Exactly. People don’t understand that the whole structure of sports in Russia is totally different. It’s not like in the US where so many talented skaters and skaters with potential don’t even get a shot because their parents can’t afford it.

Honestly, I don’t find the current Russian domination of women’s figure skating all that shocking. The groundwork was laid in the late 90’s/early aughts; they’ll dominate for while and they’ll force everyone else to catch up - in the same way that people caught up with the US when it comes to mens and womens figure skating and in the same way folks caught up to USSR/Russia in Ice Dancing and Pairs. 
 

I said this in the Olympic thread and I’ll say it again here too, while I am American I don’t automatically root for Americans. And when it comes to international sports - I always want to see a great competition! I want to see the very best compete and hopefully then see the best win - I could care less if they are American, French, German, Japanese, Togolese, etc etc

Edited December 6, 2021 by ShellsandCheese

[CeeBeeGee]

55 minutes ago, DawnDavenport said:

Of course I'll take the US finishing 2nd or 3rd to the abject abuse and neglect that was allowed to run rampant during the years the US was winning everything in site.

Well, they were still being abused during those pre-London years. Fucking Nassar was around through that entire era. Used to be on a Saturday night, I would hop on Youtube and watch vintage meets. But his disgusting face kept popping up everywhere. I think you can see him in some footage of the aftermath of Kerris Strug's vault.

[emmawoodhouse]

There's a Gymnastics thread. 😀

[KittenPokerCheater]

Who was the Russian skater who had the dress turn a different color last season?  I wonder where she is standing in the Russian Ladies Pack of Astonishing Figure Skating.

I keep hearing about the age limit thing.  I think they should raise the age limit to 18.  I don't think it will give any country an edge over any other one.  It would just give the women some time to grow up- both literally and figuratively.

[ChicksDigScars]

On 12/2/2021 at 1:57 AM, Avaleigh said:

I think the biggest difference between the period where the US dominated vs Russia dominating now is that almost all of the Russian ladies are being coached by the same team. With the Americans skaters it didn't feel like they were coming out of a factory the way that it sometimes feels with Eteri's girls. 

And that factory has some questionable practices that remind those of us in the U.S. of the Karolyi situation. Figure Skating fans generally also follow gymnastics to a degree. We've just gone through the horrors of the Nasser trial, which empowered athletes to speak out about how bad the Karolyi's really were to them, after years of being enabled by USA Gymnastics and touted as the "saviors of USA Gymnastics." Eteri and her crew seem like Karolyi's on repeat, covered for and enabled by the Russian Federation.

Edited December 6, 2021 by ChicksDigScars

[Harry24]

1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Who was the Russian skater who had the dress turn a different color last season?  I wonder where she is standing in the Russian Ladies Pack of Astonishing Figure Skating.

I believe it was Shcherbakova.  

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Who was the Russian skater who had the dress turn a different color last season?  I wonder where she is standing in the Russian Ladies Pack of Astonishing Figure Skating.

I keep hearing about the age limit thing.  I think they should raise the age limit to 18.  I don't think it will give any country an edge over any other one.  It would just give the women some time to grow up- both literally and figuratively.

You're thinking of Anna Shcherbakova. She's won Russian Nationals three years in a row. If everyone skates clean, she'll probably be second or third. Not sure how Trusova is injury wise so I'm guessing second.

[Avaleigh]

48 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

And that factory has some questionable practices that remind those of us in the U.S. of the Karolyi situation. Figure Skating fans generally also follow gymnastics to a degree. We've just gone through the horrors of the Nasser trial, which empowered athletes to speak out about how bad the Karolyi's really were to them, after years of being enabled by USA Gymnastics and touted as the "saviors of USA Gymnastics." Eteri and her crew seem like Karolyi's on repeat, covered for and enabled by the Russian Federation.

I don't feel comfortable likening the two situations until we have more facts about what goes on at Sambo 70. I've already said that I suspect that it's a harsh environment for the skaters but I don't know that there are many (any?) facts to back up that Eteri's group is the equivalent of Karolyi's camp of abuse. I just feel like it isn't fair to the skaters for us to assume any of that right now.

That being said, I hope that someone takes a look into what's happening at Sambo 70 to make sure that the girls aren't being abused on or off the ice.

[healthnut]

42 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Not sure how Trusova is injury wise so I'm guessing second.

She’s back on the ice and training. The way it’s looking right now, Kamila is a lock, Scherbakova is a strong second and the third Olympic spot is between Elizaveta and Trusova.