Figure Skating

[Good Queen Jane]

NBC seems to have finally understood that the USA's best hopes for Olympic medals are in Men and Dance. For Nationals this year (which will be held the first week in January because of the Olympics), the Men's Free is being given the Saturday prime time spot instead of Ladies and Free Dance  gets the Sunday afternoon spot. They are also not separating the Not Ready For Prime Time pairs and dance skaters from the final groups. NBC's broadcast schedule for Nationals: Friday, Jan. 5 Ladies Free 8 - 11 p.m. NBC (Live), Saturday, Jan. 6 Pairs Free 4 - 6 p.m. NBC (Live), Saturday, Jan. 6 Men's Free 8 - 11 p.m. NBC (Live), Sunday, Jan. 7 Free Dance 3 - 6 p.m. NBC (Live) . All times are Eastern. All the Short programs will be shown live on NBCSN.

[Moxie Cat]

Yeah Jason! As the article points out, the last time the U.S. had three men in the GP Final was 2009 (Lysacek, Weir, Abbott). All went to the Olympics and Lysacek won. Very promising!

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2017/12/01/jason-brown-jin-boyang-grand-prix-final/

[iMonrey]

Eh. I feel like Jason Brown missed his window of opportunity to ever be a world or Olympic champion. I know a lot of people enjoy his "artistry" but it just took him too long to add the really difficult jumps and men's skating really passed him by.

[HartofDixie]

Medvedeva is out and Miyahara will replace her in the GPF.

[legaleagle53]

On 11/26/2017 at 6:37 PM, annzeepark914 said:

After hearing about Satoko's many physical issues today (just before she began her LP), I became quite concerned for her and other skaters.  So many of them now have issues with hips, ankles, backs, shoulders, etc and I bet it's from practicing these triple-triples (ladies) and multiple-quad programs (men).  I, for one, am sick of all the jumps in programs.  I realize it's a sport and there have to be some jumps but there are other aspects that should be focused on (e.g., change-edge spiral is quite difficult; inside-edge death spiral is a lot harder and gets more points than an outside edge spiral).  At least these moves don't pound the heck out of one's body.

That's true, but those moves are too subtle for the average spectator to pick up on or appreciate, so they're dismissed as boring compared to the jumps.  That's why the jumps are rewarded and encouraged more than the more subtle "artistic" elements and skills.

Edited December 3, 2017 by legaleagle53

[displayname]

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2017/11/14/yuna-kim-pyeongchang-olympics-exhibition-gala/

:( Was hoping she might.

[carrier76]

On her Instagram, Ashley announced that she is going back to the La La Land long program. I know there is a lot of hate for Ashley on these boards, but I am a fan. I wish she had been performing this all season. I loved the MR program, but she has looked like her heart wasn’t in that program. Very odd that she is switching a month out of nationals, but we’ll see. Fingers crossed.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I know there is a lot of hate for Ashley on these boards, but I am a fan.

I have never hated her, but I'm very frustrated with her. It's kind of like being a Jeremy Abbott fan - after a while, you just can't take it anymore. So many missteps, so many "almosts." Realistically, she's a way long-shot for an Olympic medal (aside from another team medal) and that's frustrating because at the same time she's probably the USA's best chance at bringing home a medal in women's figure skating. Gone are the days when American women dominated this sport - now our best skater is Ashley. That says something about the status of the USA in this discipline.

Edited December 5, 2017 by iMonrey

[selkie]

And no Russian athlete will compete under their own flag in Korea. Wonder how this works in terms of allocation places- seems like it's easiest and probably fairest to just move the Russian single and duo slots to 'highest world ranking athlete able to compete under the Olympic flag' and then reallocate any team spot to the next country in line. 

[Good Queen Jane]

The odds for USA ladies to win a medal at the Olympics just went up. Russians banned.

7 minutes ago, selkie said:

Wonder how this works in terms of allocation places- seems like it's easiest and probably fairest to just move the Russian single and duo slots to 'highest world ranking athlete able to compete under the Olympic flag' and then reallocate any team spot to the next country in line. 

That's an interesting question. Since the placement in figure skating at the Olympics is awarded to the country and not to the skater, I don't know that any Russian skater will be able to compete. Certainly the Russians will not be in the Team competition. Plus the article linked above indicates that all the Russian athletes will boycott the 2018 Olympics.

[Jeddah]

I know this was pervasive, state sanctioned doping, but this is a much bigger punishment than I expected. I feel bad for the athletes. I’m sure there are plenty of them who didn’t do anything wrong, and now they’ll miss their chance to compete at the Olympics. They have to be devastated.

 

39 minutes ago, selkie said:

And no Russian athlete will compete under their own flag in Korea. Wonder how this works in terms of allocation places- seems like it's easiest and probably fairest to just move the Russian single and duo slots to 'highest world ranking athlete able to compete under the Olympic flag' and then reallocate any team spot to the next country in line. 

That is a good question. Does this mean the US can bring a second pairs team? Not that we particularly deserve it, but it would be nice for another pair to get to go.

With Nathan and the Shibs, the US already had a good chance in the team event, but this really increases the odds.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Jeddah

[ChicksDigScars]

Has anyone checked on Johnny Weir? This has to be devastating for him. 

Of course, some skaters may petition to compete under the neutral Olympic flag, thus giving him the chance to correctly over enunciate their names. 

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

Does this mean the US can bring a second pairs team?

No, once a country qualifies a team/skater at Worlds, it cannot add onto the total numbers sent. In fact, France recently gave back the second Olympics pairs team position they earned at Worlds, but even though the US was tied with France to send two pairs and lost on the tiebreaker, the US does not get to add a second pair. If the Russians don't compete (and they probably won't), three other countries get to send a pairs team based on the qualifying competitions. This will make Japan, which is next in line, very happy (although Japan may already be in since the North Korean pairs team which qualified hasn't sent in the necessary paperwork. Confused enough?).

Edited December 5, 2017 by Good Queen Jane

[surreysmum]

1 hour ago, Good Queen Jane said:

That's an interesting question. Since the placement in figure skating at the Olympics is awarded to the country and not to the skater, I don't know that any Russian skater will be able to compete. Certainly the Russians will not be in the Team competition. Plus the article linked above indicates that all the Russian athletes will boycott the 2018 Olympics.

Actually, unless there's a boycott by the Russians (which is a whole other thing), I expect to see most or all of the Russian skaters there, and also quite possibly a Russian team (but under the name "OAR" team - "Olympic Athlete from Russia") in the team competition.

See the actual announcement by the IOC, which gives some pretty clear guidelines about how clean athletes - and that presumably means most of the figure skaters, and cuts out most of the drug-prone sports like cross-country and skeleton - will have a clear path to compete. It'll be by invitation only, by a panel composed of drug officials.

https://www.olympic.org/news/ioc-suspends-russian-noc-and-creates-a-path-for-clean-individual-athletes-to-compete-in-pyeongchang-2018-under-the-olympic-flag

In particular:

This panel will be guided in its decisions by the following principles:

The IOC, at its absolute discretion, will ultimately determine the athletes to be invited from the list.

It can only consider athletes who have qualified according to the qualification standards of their respective sport.

Athletes must be considered clean to the satisfaction of this panel:

Athletes must not have been disqualified or declared ineligible for any Anti-Doping Rule Violation.

Athletes must have undergone all the pre-Games targeted tests recommended by the Pre-Games Testing Task Force.

Athletes must have undergone any other testing requirements specified by the panel to ensure a level playing field.

These invited athletes will participate, be it in individual or team competitions, in the Olympic Winter Games PyeongChang 2018 under the name “Olympic Athlete from Russia (OAR)”. They will compete with a uniform bearing this name and under the Olympic Flag. The Olympic Anthem will be played in any ceremony.

These invited athletes will enjoy the same technical and logistical support as any other Olympic athlete.

---

(bolding is mine)

 I think Medvedeva will still get her gold. Just as Petrenko, Mish/Dmitriev & Klimova/Ponomarenko got their golds, even though they were skating for the post-Soviet "Unified Team" in '92; and like them, she will hear the Olympic anthem, not her own. JMO.

Editing to add: it occurs to me that Carolina Kostner, who will most certainly (health permitting) compete for Italy (and I for one will be very glad to see her there), would not have made it past this set of conditions had she been Russian instead. And there have been a few instances in the past (though I can't think of any that would affect the current crop of skaters) where a skater, usually a female one, was suspended due to stimulants in cold medications or similar things, and then subsequently reinstated.  

Edited December 5, 2017 by surreysmum
more thoughts...

[Avaleigh]

I agree that most of the Russian athletes will likely compete unless there's huge pressure (and off the record consequences) for them not to. 

I feel bad for the athletes but admit to being tickled thinking about what Johnny's reaction must be. LOL he must be having such an epic freak out. 

I'm loving Adam this season. I hope he has the skate of his life at Nationals. 

Nice to hear that Ashley is going back to the La La Land program. At this point I almost feel like it shouldn't be allowed for a person to use the same program for three competitve seasons. 

Bradie is a breath of fresh air and she's still a teenager so I don't see what the big deal is in her skating to Cinderella. People gave Gracie shit for doing Sleeping Beauty even though it's beautiful music. Some skaters are picked on for the silliest things.

I hope that Mirai hits her triple axel in both programs. No female skater is scrutinized as harshly as she is so I want her to prove all the naysayers like Johnny wrong. 

My ideal men's lineup is Nathan, Adam, and Jason for the Olympics even though Jason is a longshot. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Avaleigh

[displayname]

Can someone explain what a country stands to gain by winning sports medals? I can see what athletes stand to gain, but why does a country need to go to such lengths? Just for glory?

Edited December 5, 2017 by fan94

[surreysmum]

3 minutes ago, fan94 said:

Can someone explain what a country stands to gain by winning sports medals? I can see what athlete's stand to gain, but why does a country need to go to such lengths? Just for glory?

A strong performance by national athletes in a hugely high-profile event brings people's natural tendency to root for the home team into the service of more general nationalistic fervour (if our athletes are the best, then our country is the best). Pretty much every nation-state in the world has a vested interest in encouraging this behaviour, though some exploit it more cynically than others, and some direct more resources, or break more rules, in order to obtain the desired - but inherently somewhat unpredictable - result of major sporting victories by national teams or national sporting heroes.

The Olympics is an absolutely enormous stage - more eyeballs directed in the same general direction from everywhere than practically any other event - and has been used for political propaganda purposes since, if not the very beginning of the modern games, at the very least since Hitler's Berlin Olympics in 1936, which was specifically anti-Semitic and white supremacist.  Banning South Africa from participation in the Olympics was a very visible part of the international pressure against apartheid, and the U.S. and Russia (with their respective allies) expressed their opposing ideologies in the tit-for-tat boycotts in 1980 and 1984. I'm sure people can think of many other examples where the Olympics in particular have lent themselves to "statements" about supposed national superiorities, not just in sporting achievements but in the national systems and national values which (according to politicians) underlie their success.

In allowing many of the Russian athletes to compete, but severing their ties to the national symbols (the flag, the anthem), the IOC is cutting Russia exactly where it hurts, because it is cutting the natural tie between "go Yevgenia! what an amazing skater" and "go Russia! What an amazing country to have given birth to/trained/put forward such an amazing skater!"

As usual, just my 2c 

[Mittengirl]

Do many of the top Russians train in Russia?   Seems like now everybody either trains in Canada or the U.S.  (Except for that girl Plushenko trains.)

[Good Queen Jane]

Almost all the Russian skaters train in Russia. Before the Sochi Olympics, the Russian government put a lot of pressure on the Russian coaches to only train Russian skaters and even more pressure on the skaters to stay in Russia. 

[displayname]

4 hours ago, surreysmum said:

A strong performance by national athletes in a hugely high-profile event brings people's natural tendency to root for the home team into the service of more general nationalistic fervour (if our athletes are the best, then our country is the best). Pretty much every nation-state in the world has a vested interest in encouraging this behaviour, though some exploit it more cynically than others, and some direct more resources, or break more rules, in order to obtain the desired - but inherently somewhat unpredictable - result of major sporting victories by national teams or national sporting heroes.

The Olympics is an absolutely enormous stage - more eyeballs directed in the same general direction from everywhere than practically any other event - and has been used for political propaganda purposes since, if not the very beginning of the modern games, at the very least since Hitler's Berlin Olympics in 1936, which was specifically anti-Semitic and white supremacist.  Banning South Africa from participation in the Olympics was a very visible part of the international pressure against apartheid, and the U.S. and Russia (with their respective allies) expressed their opposing ideologies in the tit-for-tat boycotts in 1980 and 1984. I'm sure people can think of many other examples where the Olympics in particular have lent themselves to "statements" about supposed national superiorities, not just in sporting achievements but in the national systems and national values which (according to politicians) underlie their success.

In allowing many of the Russian athletes to compete, but severing their ties to the national symbols (the flag, the anthem), the IOC is cutting Russia exactly where it hurts, because it is cutting the natural tie between "go Yevgenia! what an amazing skater" and "go Russia! What an amazing country to have given birth to/trained/put forward such an amazing skater!"

As usual, just my 2c 

Beautiful reply! I can see the tenuous links, though I must question how applicable this behaviour is in the modern era (though no doubt that the countries that partake in it probably don't really care about that).

Another one was that maybe it could increase tourism or something. And international sponsorhips.

[gatopretoNYC]

5 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Has anyone checked on Johnny Weir? This has to be devastating for him. 

Of course, some skaters may petition to compete under the neutral Olympic flag, thus giving him the chance to correctly over enunciate their names. 

Hee! :D

I'm sorry for Jin's injury, but very very happy that Jason Brown will get to compete in the Grand Prix Finals.

[Moxie Cat]

28 minutes ago, PoshSprinkles said:

I can see their officials telling no one to compete. Pretty much the whole "you're either with us or against us" mentality. It's also a matter of pride.

I am thinking the same thing. And not only pressure on athletes but on coaches and assistants too. Plus financial pressure. Ladies' skating may get very interesting. 

[MostlyC]

I suspect that they'll allow the Russian Women figure skaters to compete individually, but that they won't skate in the Team Event.

I have zero tolerance for doping; if it were up to me, I'd ban the Russians from the winter games.  Yes it sucks for the clean athletes, but the fault lies with the country they compete for, not with IOC.  Of course, the IOC needs to be very strict with the rules and not play favorites, as they are certainly guilty of that as well.

The olympics may have gotten more interesting today.

[HartofDixie]

Follow Grand Prix final Results

[caracas1914]

I’m sorry but I’m of the opinion that all Rusian athletes should be banned from the game as a consequence of their Federations’s condoned secret and systematic doping program.  This was collision of a very broad nature and made a mockery of the Olympics. 

Banning all Unfair to the athletes?  Of course it is, but no less unfair than to the athletes from many countries who where penalized by competing and potentially losing more medals than we will ever know in the Sochi Olympics and other events.

 

This isn’t like  the East German doping program of the 70’s which wasn’t revealed until decades later, the repercussion to the Russian sports machine and the PTB with such a severe sanction wont be so easily forgotten.

[displayname]

18 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

I’m sorry but I’m of the opinion that all Rusian athletes should be banned from the game as a consequence of their Federations’s condoned secret and systematic doping program.  This was collision of a very broad nature and made a mockery of the Olympics. 

Banning all Unfair to the athletes?  Of course it is, but no less unfair than to the athletes from many countries who where penalized by competing and potentially losing more medals than we will ever know in the Sochi Olympics and other events.

 

This isn’t like  the East German doping program of the 70’s which wasn’t revealed until decades later, the repercussion to the Russian sports machine and the PTB with such a severe sanction wont be so easily forgotten.

Also, some people are saying that there will be a * next to anyone's olympic medal if Russia's out... but if Russia's cheating, then wouldn't there be a * next to everyone anyway if they competed? I don't think everyone in Sochi was caught.

[NUguy514]

Out of curiosity, why do people assume that the Russian figure skaters haven't been doping?

[scarynikki12]

I would guess because so much of figure skating is precision.  Things like jumps and turns can benefit from a boost of, say, amphetamines, but those won't help them land accurately, have proper form, or perform the choreography well.  I'm sure there are skaters who are part of the doping program but the type of drugs supplied would benefit strength and speed events more than precision ones. 

That's why the corruption among judges tends to be where the cheating lies.

[displayname]

But Russia has had its own way of cheating in skating anyway in the past.

[attica]

18 hours ago, surreysmum said:

The IOC, at its absolute discretion, will ultimately determine the athletes to be invited from the list.

Which, if I'm reading correctly, means "please bribe us generously if  you wanna play." Me, cynical?

 

8 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Out of curiosity, why do people assume that the Russian figure skaters haven't been doping?

 

7 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I would guess because so much of figure skating is precision.  Things like jumps and turns can benefit from a boost of, say, amphetamines, but those won't help them land accurately, have proper form, or perform the choreography well.  I'm sure there are skaters who are part of the doping program but the type of drugs supplied would benefit strength and speed events more than precision ones. 

Steroids help you recover from injury quickly; it's way easier to be precise when pain isn't shooting up your landing leg.  Plus: stronger muscles =bigger jumps, faster skating,  I'm with @NUguy514, I think there's certainly room for suspicion.

[MostlyC]

Steroids wouldn’t help a skater, but HGH would.  It’s not detectable in a urine sample, only a blood test.  HGH helps immensely with physical recovery time, sort of like how meldonium was so helpful to other skaters before it was banned (and it’s why it’s banned).  I would suspect that many skaters use it, especially when they compete a lot during a season.

[ChicksDigScars]

3 hours ago, attica said:

Which, if I'm reading correctly, means "please bribe us generously if  you wanna play." Me, cynical?

 

 

Steroids help you recover from injury quickly; it's way easier to be precise when pain isn't shooting up your landing leg.  Plus: stronger muscles =bigger jumps, faster skating,  I'm with @NUguy514, I think there's certainly room for suspicion.

Weren't Bobrova/Soloviev busted a few years ago? To tell you the truth, I prefer Stepanova/Bukin over them, anyway.  Wouldn't break my heart to see Bobrova/Soloviev left behind. and Stepanova/Bukin be the lead dance team from Russia.  Maybe I just like seeing second generation stars emerge. I'm also interested to see how Anthony Ponomarenko does for the US. 

I always wondered about Adelina Sotnikova. No World medals, no European gold, but she wins in Sochi. Was it simple corruption in judging and home ice advantage, or did she have pharmaceutical assistance? 

Sochi will always leave a bad taste in my mouth. It was a bad Olympics. Poorly constructed and poorly attended. Quiet crowds who sat on their hands for non-Russian athletes, Putin looming like a huge threat. NBC having to shoot medal ceremonies up close because no one attended them.  Also shooting the finish line of ski races up tight, because no one was in the stands at the bottom of the mountain (besides athlete families), the homeless dog population....ugh.  After the parties that were Torino and Vancouver, Sochi seemed like such a downer. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by ChicksDigScars
Got my Russian pairs confused

[NUguy514]

1 hour ago, ChicksDigScars said:

I always wondered about Adelina Sotnikova. No World medals, no European gold, but she wins in Sochi. Was it simple corruption in judging and home ice advantage, or did she have pharmaceutical assistance?

I've always thought it was both, and I have no reason to believe the Russian skaters are clean.  As that documentary Icarus showed, every Russian athlete was doping in Sochi.  That was the most abominable Games of my lifetime.

The IOC really should've just banned Russia completely, no exceptions.  Part of these systematic doping programs is knowing how to cycle the drugs so that they're not in your body when testing time comes, and I'm sure many of these athletes are cycling them out in preparation for trying to test clean and be able to compete neutrally.

[selkie]

There were apparently scratches on Adelina Sotnikova anti-doping sample bottle indicating possible tampering but the ISU/IOC didn't press the issue like they did in the nordic skiing and bobsledding realm, where pretty much all the Russians are facing retroactive DQs now. 

I do think that anyone who was in Sochi is very suspect but that the athletes who were juniors in 2014 and want to compete in Korea should be given a pathway to competing along with extra scrutiny from outside anti-doping agencies. 

[MaryMitch]

Russia (Putin) will allow the athletes to compete under the neutral flag:

 

http://time.com/5052300/putin-russia-2018-olympics-ban/

[HartofDixie]

Back to LLL.

9 hours ago, MostlyC said:

Steroids wouldn’t help a skater, but HGH would.  It’s not detectable in a urine sample, only a blood test.  HGH helps immensely with physical recovery time, sort of like how meldonium was so helpful to other skaters before it was banned (and it’s why it’s banned).  I would suspect that many skaters use it, especially when they compete a lot during a season.

Simone Biles posted on twitter that she did a drug test and they took blood - not sure if the blood tests is going to be regular thing or it's random.

[Moxie Cat]

On December 5, 2017 at 7:57 AM, carrier76 said:

On her Instagram, Ashley announced that she is going back to the La La Land long program.

If it means one less Moulin Rouge program, I'm all for it. 

[Silver Raven]

Elaine Zayak doesn't like the way Tonya Harding is being portrayed as a hero in the I, Tonya movie.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/disgraced-figure-skater-tonya-harding-185331372.html

[Good Queen Jane]

Forget about the Russians not being at the 2018 Olympics. Now it's possible that the US won't participate because of its proximity to North Korea.

[Moxie Cat]

Men's short: good showing by Jason Brown! Happy for him. Nathan on top but only because Uno had two deductions. Wish I could watch it!

And a lovely result thus far in the ice dance results. I love our US teams, but I am also a temporary France fan. :)

Edited December 7, 2017 by Moxie Cat

[HartofDixie]

The Grand Prix final will be shown on the Olympic channel but NBC will have an hour or two of "highlights" not sure if it's on Sunday or next week.    If you want to see the programs some YouTube channels: FSone, figure skating 2014.

[Moxie Cat]

Thanks for the YT links, @HartofDixie! I think the recap is this Sunday. They rarely show the short programs, though, and never the pairs. Apparently only two massive packages carry the Olympic Channel on Directv - i continue to be really annoyed about this, especially since so many here seem to get the Olympic Channel automatically (do you all have Comcast?) I wish they would put at least the men's and ice dance events on NBCSN since we have so many athletes competing.

[HartofDixie]

I have Cox and have the Olympic channel but I was always forget I have it because it's channel 1066!

[doodlebug]

28 minutes ago, HartofDixie said:

I have Cox and have the Olympic channel but I was always forget I have it because it's channel 1066!

I have Cox, too, but the Olympic Channel isn't part of the basic service.  It's part of a sports package of several channels and costs 10 bucks a month.  So, every year, I sign up for it as the Grand Prix season gets underway and cancel it after Worlds because I am cheap.

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

Nathan on top but only because Uno had two deductions

For those wondering why Uno had two deductions but only one fall (he fell on his triple axel), the other deduction was a time deduction. His fall caused his final spin to go past the time limit for the Short.

[displayname]

Sui/Han made a rare mistake. :O Still hope they win!

[Jeddah]

44 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

For those wondering why Uno had two deductions but only one fall (he fell on his triple axel), the other deduction was a time deduction. His fall caused his final spin to go past the time limit for the Short.

That was such a weird fall. Even weirder than the one that injured Hanyu’s ankle. Although nobody does awkward falls better than Pogorilaya.

Watching it, I think he ended right on the music. I hope this competition doesn’t come down to 1 point because he didn’t deserve that deduction.

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

Watching it, I think he ended right on the music. I hope this competition doesn’t come down to 1 point because he didn’t deserve that deduction.

According to an interview, Uno said he started his program earlier in the music than previously, which started the clock ticking sooner. So even if he ended with the music, he was over time.

[Jeddah]

9 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

According to an interview, Uno said he started his program earlier in the music than previously, which started the clock ticking sooner. So even if he ended with the music, he was over time.

That makes more sense. I’m glad he got that mistake out of the way now. 

[Maelstrom]

Yay Jason! I'm so glad he got to compete in the GPF after all, though I'm sorry it came at Jin Boyang's expense. Here's hoping Shoma has a nice clean free skate, though at least he was able to laugh at such a silly mistake instead of letting it ruin his entire night.

For the first time this season I recorded the dance and pairs as well, though we'll see if they hold my interest enough to watch them all.