Season 17 Live Feed Discussion: Watch People Sleep All Day!

[AndreaK1041]

TMZ said it was Steve that was evicted damn it who is right?! Sounds like every one is full of shit and just guessing. This is like being ON Big Brother who can we trust?

Do you have a link to this? I don't see it on their twitter page or website.  If it's there, I would believe it.  It's a trashy website, but not really an inaccurate one necessarily.

[blixie]

 

though the fact that two sources are saying "Austin gone/John HoH" is very specific.

 

Wait what two sources are saying that. I've heard Austin out/Steve HoH, Austin out/John HoH, and Steve out/John HoH, only one of which was tied to a big time source (Harvey's TMZ twitter). 

 

 

Do you have a link to this? I don't see it on their twitter page or website.

 

Nope, I was in comment section on BBNetwork said commenter is obviously full of shit. I don't see it either, but I often miss stuff in feeds so...

Edited September 15, 2015 by blixie

[ProfCrash]

Jokers is basically ignorning all the reports because they are contradicting each other.

[Cutty]

It's pretty funny that the one eviction all year where we don't know who is going DAYS IN ADVANCE is this one.

[Cutty]

I think Vanessa is using a lot of strategy, yes.  But waiting to explain it for months gives her the opportunity to reflect on what happened, what was shown on TV, and to craft a narrative that may not reflect her actual intentions at the time.  I don't like that much.

 

100% this. I don't put much into anything they say when they get out of the house. This season is so incredibly long that I doubt Vanessa can even remember what she was thinking on day 12.  

 

I also find the idea of a strategy blog a bit silly. We all love it but at its core this is still just a silly gameshow. These people aren't curing cancer or cracking the nuclear launch codes.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Cutty

[HighQueenEB]

Jokers is basically ignorning all the reports because they are contradicting each other.

Well, there are only 6 possible outcomes at this point and no leaks in the last 16 hours or so would make me leery at believing any reports suddenly appearing this afternoon. We'll know soon enough but this wait to find out is aggravating. I really think the theory that perhaps BB went with no audience is plausible.

It's pretty funny that the one eviction all year where we don't know who is going DAYS IN ADVANCE is this one.

I was thinking more along the lines of obnoxious, lol, but I'll give you amusing.

Are we all in a prayer circle for an Austin blindside?

[Ceeg]

I also find the idea of a strategy blog a bit silly. We all love it but at its core this is still just a silly gameshow. These people aren't curing cancer or cracking the nuclear launch codes.

Only speaking for myself, but I'd be interested in reading about her various thoughts and strategies. And not just from Vanessa, but I'd be interested in reading strategy insight from anyone who's done a great job at playing this game. I mostly watch BB for the game/strategy aspect of it. I find it fascinating how many endless variables there are and how different moves can completely change the entire course of the game. And it shouldn't be surprising that Vanessa is interested in doing that anyway. She literally plays a game for a living. Even playing chess growing up, it seems like playing games are a huge part of her life and probably her biggest interest. 

[MKL122788]

I feel like lots of those "spoilers" read as hybridized fantasy with educated guesses, with a side of Vanessa "reasons".

It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm going to laugh if Liz wins F4 HoH and everyone is wrong.

[blixie]

 

And not just from Vanessa, but I'd be interested in reading strategy insight from anyone who's done a great job at playing this game.

I've read game theory books for fun so I'd love to hear Van's explanations for her choices, though I agree with the person that argued applying GT to BB isn't a good fit/idea because of (unknown unknown/imperfect info, lack of rational game playing behavior, aka incentives) I think that more than anything probably lead to Van getting in all her tight spots and deep shit.  

 

I think she continually tried to apply her poker skills/game theory love to a game that has a lot more complexity/nuance to it, and her painful lack of social game meant she was never able to form a genuine tight emotional bond with any single player, again because she knew she might have to fuck every damn one over and it would be worse to form and bond and betray it than to never form it and betray weaker bonds of alliance for games sake. She decided to live or die on her strategic choices and competition wins, and that the jury will respect that even if they hated the emotional tactics she used to achieve it.

[SiobhanJW]

This season BB doesn't have much to "reveal" at the end of the season as a surprise like Team America or who was the MVP. Is Vaness revealing she is actually one of the top Poker Players in the world something they want to reveal on Finale night? What about John actually being a Superfan and hiding it? Or do they not even care at this point. Haha

[Wings]

I would love Julie to reveal Vanessa's profession.  I want to see their faces, especially if she wins.  Mix of surprise and anger I would think.  

[mayziemay]

Are we all in a prayer circle for an Austin blindside?

 

Yes indeed!  I hope on Austin's way out, they all toss food on him like he did to Liz. 

[mooses]

I would love Julie to reveal Vanessa's profession.  I want to see their faces, especially if she wins.  Mix of surprise and anger I would think.  

 

I think the loudest voice would be Austin saying, "I knew it!"

[gunderda]

They all know Vanessa is a poker player.  It's not a secret.  The secret is how much she's made from doing it.

[Cutty]

I'm not sure if Vanessa's strategy into words would be all that interesting. Her biggest gift is being able to manipulate those closest to her. Getting them to do things that benefit her game the most, but making it seem like it's best for "the group". 

 

Her actual strategic moves:

-align with a strong male (Austin) early in the game

-align with a strong duo (Clelli) 

-form side relationships with outcasts (Steve, tried unsuccessfully with Audrey)

-the twins kinda fell into her lap but it was smart letting them come into the house as another duo

-pushing Austin to showmance Liz (not that they needed a push) 

 

Basically her strategy, whether planned or not, was to hide behind strong pairs and create the illusion (mostly successful) that she was playing alone. That's Big Brother 101 strategy. Nothing groundbreaking there.

 

It helped the other side was clueless and her side won a lot (also the stupid BOTB twist), but to her credit it worked. There are stupid players every season, and part of the reason they looked so stupid is a result of her gameplay.

 

Besides the manipulation, another strong aspect of her game is getting "her" people, who otherwise wouldn't have, aligned. I don't think Clelli spoke 3 words to "Liz" before Vanessa pushed them into an alliance. Yet they aligned with gusto. The same with Clelli and Austin. Austin treated Steve like crap for most of the early and middle part of the game. Vanessa brought all of them together while getting them to mostly do what she wanted. It's brilliant gameplay when you break it down, but I just can't stand the tactics.

 

 

[pennben]

 

He also called her a bitch for it, which Steve called him out on.

 

True, but then apparently after Austin threw the food on Julia, Steve said that she deserved it, and he and Austin high-fived; hence adding to my dilemma as to who I want to see leave more this evening.

[Sara2009]

I want Austin to leave partially because I think he has a better chance of winning.

[Ceeg]

I want Austin to leave partially because I think he has a better chance of winning.

Whoever is left of Austin and Steve will be the eventual winner IMO.

[Sara2009]

Whoever is left of Austin and Steve will be the eventual winner IMO.

I think Liz would have a decent shot if Austin left. I wouldn't be surprised if John pulled it out either.

[Ceeg]

I think Liz would have a decent shot if Austin left. I wouldn't be surprised if John pulled it out either.

Liz's only shot at winning would be to win the F3 HOH. Otherwise, no one is taking her to F2. Same for Vanessa, but add in the F4 veto. John, idk. I just absolutely despise the idea of someone who's already been evicted winning the game. And if he won, I would lose a lot of respect for everyone who voted for him. I think Steve vs John , Steve would get all of F&G's votes. So he'd only need to swing one more.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ceeg

[Callaphera]

This season BB doesn't have much to "reveal" at the end of the season as a surprise like Team America or who was the MVP. Is Vaness revealing she is actually one of the top Poker Players in the world something they want to reveal on Finale night? What about John actually being a Superfan and hiding it? Or do they not even care at this point. Haha

(bolded relevant part because it seemed easier than deleting around the quote, because lazy)

 

This whole season I've been wondering about this. I wasn't just tripping thinking that Johnny Mac was supposedly a "superfan" then? Because his strategy and gameplay definitely do not say "superfan". Nothing he's done this season says that. And I can understand trying to hide that from the other HGs, for reasons, but damn. Johnny Mac has played like he hasn't seen a single episode the entire time he's been in the house. I think he took the "hide the fact that I've seen the show" strategy a little too far. 

 

Fingers crossed that Austin was evicted. Oh please oh please oh please.

[SiobhanJW]

They all know Vanessa is a poker player. It's not a secret. The secret is how much she's made from doing it.

Right. I know they know. But she's played it off like she hasn't actually been serious about it in years. Obviously that isn't the case.

Edited September 15, 2015 by SiobhanJW

[mooses]

Liz's only shot at winning would be to win the F3 HOH. Otherwise, no one is taking her to F2. Same for Vanessa, but add in the F4 veto.

It obviously has a lot to do with Vanessa being perceived as an automatic F2 win, but it's impressive that Liz is almost a lock to make it to F3 when everyone knows she has two automatic jury votes.

[Cutty]

John's shitty gameplay is certainly reminiscent of a superfan. 

 

They might reveal that Vanessa is a poker player but I doubt anyone will care. Once the season is over, all the HGs think about is me, me, me. 

[Ceeg]

It obviously has a lot to do with Vanessa being perceived as an automatic F2 win, but it's impressive that Liz is almost a lock to make it to F3 when everyone knows she has two automatic jury votes.

If Vanessa is booted at F4, then Liz winning the F3 HOH is literally the only outcome that's appealing to me. Otherwise, mehhhhh another white dude winner.

[Cutty]

Liz, Steve, John would be a random F3, but nothing can top Andy, GinaMarie and Spencer in pure awfulness. 

[SteveAC10]

 

I just absolutely despise the idea of someone who's already been evicted winning the game.

And so, I would imagine, do the members of the jury. Especially those who only got one chance at it. I think he would be the safest final 2 bet for any player making the choice - for that reason. America loves him, but I'm not so sure the jury will.

Edited September 15, 2015 by SteveAC10

[Wings]

I live in PST (Phoenix zone now), just moved.  Does the show thread open after it airs on the east coast?  I want to know ahead of when it comes on here at 7pm.  Still trying to get used to prime time shows starting at dinner time.   

[Eolivet]

It obviously has a lot to do with Vanessa being perceived as an automatic F2 win, but it's impressive that Liz is almost a lock to make it to F3 when everyone knows she has two automatic jury votes.

 

This is what I'm wondering: if Austin was evicted, Steve won HoH and John won PoV, would John evict Vanessa over Liz, when anybody going into F2 with Liz is automatically down 0-2?

 

Steve seems hellbent on evicting Vanessa, but equally hellbent on receiving credit for evicting Vanessa. Does he want her out so badly that he'll let someone else take the credit? Or does it have to be him for his plan to work?

[TimWil]

I think John will be the exception. Shelli, for one, will be thrilled. I see nothing wrong with someone who was evicted coming back into the game and winning it all.

[Ceeg]

I see nothing wrong with someone who was evicted coming back into the game and winning it all.

 

Because it's the most blatant production rig there is. I've always hated the jury buyback comp. The point of the game should be to survive to the end without getting evicted, and have a jury of those people who've been evicted vote on whether you should win the money.  A juror buyback comp is basically the producer's way of doubling down, in case a fan fave (like John) is evicted too early for their liking. And it should be no surprise that the comp John won to get back into the house was a physical one, where he was competing against 3 girls. The only difference in John and the jurors is that John could hold onto a rope longer than three girls. That's it. It has nothing to do with his strategic prowess or manipulation powers or his ability to win any sort of non-physical comp.

 

I don't want Steve or Austin to win, on a personal level, but I definitely think they've successfully played this game 100% better than John. And if either of them are in the F2 with John, and they don't win, I'll be super super disappointed at the shitty result of a mostly great and enjoyable season.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Ceeg

[ProfCrash]

I've read game theory books for fun so I'd love to hear Van's explanations for her choices, though I agree with the person that argued applying GT to BB isn't a good fit/idea because of (unknown unknown/imperfect info, lack of rational game playing behavior, aka incentives) I think that more than anything probably lead to Van getting in all her tight spots and deep shit.  

 

I think she continually tried to apply her poker skills/game theory love to a game that has a lot more complexity/nuance to it, and her painful lack of social game meant she was never able to form a genuine tight emotional bond with any single player, again because she knew she might have to fuck every damn one over and it would be worse to form and bond and betray it than to never form it and betray weaker bonds of alliance for games sake. She decided to live or die on her strategic choices and competition wins, and that the jury will respect that even if they hated the emotional tactics she used to achieve it.

There are a wide variety of game theoretic models and equilibriums you can you when dealing with incomplete and or imperfect information. There are even nested models that can be used. The math is more complicated but it is doable. I think that Vanessa's biggest problem would laying out the assumptions for her models. She has not shown that she is looking at the game with enough clarity to identify good assumptions as the foundation for her modelling. I would use bargaining models with an outside option and probably some Bayesian equilibrium. The other problem is that the games have to be rebuilt each week.

[SiobhanJW]

I think one thing that doesn't really annoy me about John winning is that they literally didn't care who left and were possibly going to do Rock, Paper, Scissors as a last resort. So it's one of those things where they were all too chicken to target Vanessa or go after James so John & Steve ended up as the default nominees. I dunno. And plus him being gone for like 10 mins and then the cast basically calling it a reset.

This is a cast that didn't care the twins were coming in, didn't target the returnee immediately, let the one of the Showmances make it to F5 and most of them knew Vanessa Was/is running the game but just didn't want to "upset" her by putting her up. Lol. I don't think they give a crap if they give John the won.

Edited September 15, 2015 by SiobhanJW

[Waldo13]

Only speaking for myself, but I'd be interested in reading about her various thoughts and strategies. And not just from Vanessa, but I'd be interested in reading strategy insight from anyone who's done a great job at playing this game. I mostly watch BB for the game/strategy aspect of it. I find it fascinating how many endless variables there are and how different moves can completely change the entire course of the game. And it shouldn't be surprising that Vanessa is interested in doing that anyway. She literally plays a game for a living. Even playing chess growing up, it seems like playing games are a huge part of her life and probably her biggest interest.

There is strategy and there is luck and I believe that luck is 50% of the game, strategy 40% and BB interference 10%. When it comes to Veto comps, though, I lean more to luck than any other comp. How many times, over the years, have we seen perfect strategy defeated by the HOH's target winning the veto? Last year it was Frankie and Donny, this year it's Johnny Mac.

When it comes to strategy, Vanessa is the most adapt because poker requires this with every hand played. Vanessa being paranoid comes with the worry about making the right decision to hold, fold, or raise. IMO Big Brother is like, for Vanessa, sitting at a poker table because poker players are liers trying to steal the pot.

[LoveLeigh]

If a houseguest is evicted he should stay evicted. It defeats and manipulates the game to provide wormholes through which evictees can crawl and change and detour the game going forward for those who managed to stay in to that point. 

 

In my opinion, to allow an evicted houseguest to return is almost like a time travel paradox. 

[Katesus7]

I don't see a returning jury member as a producer's rig seeing how it's the third season in a row it's happened. The houseguests were expecting it and planning for it. And I think saying that comp was somehow rigged to keep Johnny Mac because it was meant for boys to win over girls does a disservice to both Becky and Shelli. I think both of them are as athletic as Johnny. Also, a woman DID win that comp. Maybe Johnny threw it, maybe not, but Vanessa outlasted James, who everyone thought was a lock for that comp and who most certainly did not throw it. Steve is a boy and also sucked at it.

[Cutty]

Sorry but if you've been evicted you shouldn't win the game. The entire point is to not be voted out. That they have used this awful twist the last three seasons doesn't change the fact.

[Eolivet]

It's not a new concept, since other reality shows have done it. The difference is contestants on CBS series have never fallen for it, because it's not a judge's decision, it's the contestants' decision. Until now, Lil from Survivor: Pearl Islands has been the poster child for how these contestants are viewed by their fellow competitors. Survivor got rid of it (to my knowledge) because it was reviled by the contestants and reviled by the viewers. Someone who was evicted by their fellow competitors being named the winner by their fellow competitors would shift the paradigm, in my opinion. It would be open season for this concept on these shows now. I'd fully expect eliminated racers rejoining the Amazing Race, as well as Survivor bringing it back somehow (maybe not Redemption Island, per se, but a similar "jury buyback" comp).

 

I believe contestant-driven shows are the final frontier for this concept. It will only take one for it to come roaring back.

[mooses]

If a houseguest is evicted he should stay evicted. It defeats and manipulates the game to provide wormholes through which evictees can crawl and change and detour the game going forward for those who managed to stay in to that point. 

 

In my opinion, to allow an evicted houseguest to return is almost like a time travel paradox. 

 

Imagine if Jackie, Shelli or Becky came back? They basically sat out multiple evictions and could have had a free ride to Final 8. 

[peachmangosteen]

It's brilliant gameplay when you break it down, but I just can't stand the tactics.

 

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say Vanessa's gameplay has been brilliant, but I'll certainly concede that it was good. But, yea, I don't respect or enjoy the way she played at all.

 

Whoever is left of Austin and Steve will be the eventual winner IMO.

 

I agree. But I also do still think Vanessa could win. The only person left who I think would really take a shot at her at F4 is John and she'll have to lose POV for it to even happen and I think she's as close to a lock to win that F4 veto as someone can be.

[ProfCrash]

I wouldn't count redemption island out on Survivor. Jeff loves it and will probably bring it back. Biggest Loser allows booted contestants to return. American Idol has the save. Big Brother has done this regularly. They all know it is part of the game and prepare for it. John's return was known and part of the game.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

There are many "unfairness" in Big Brother but I wouldn't count Jury return as one of them.

This season had TWINS. To top it off, they didn't play the whole time. They sat out days and weeks in total while the game went on. That's a huge advantage for an individual season.

I was one of the ones who wasn't pleased Dani Donato got a pass that allowed her to chill for two weeks but I never said she shouldn't win because of it. It was a twist and she was fortunate to have been on the receiving end of it.

The season Rachel won had the most blatant rigging starting with the Vets return to the duo POV ... Which benefited Jordan more anyway. Rachel went on to win the season and I was okay with it.

The coup was another twist that put one side of the house at an advantage and it wasn't earned by way of competition. A cast member from that side went on to win. Jordan and I was the most happiest BB fan ever!

Jury return is not rigging when they have to earn their way back in. If I'm a Vanessa fan and she made it back to the house, I wouldn't begrudge her the second chance. Hell, I wouldn't if I wasn't a fan because jury return has been a main aspect of the game for several years now.

I just remembered BBCan Gary was a returning juror who almost won over the more deserving Jillian if his own alliance me ever hadn't majorly screwed up her finale vote.

[blixie]

I have zero moral stance on the buyback I hate it when it fucks up the game for someone I like and and I like it when *works* for someone I like. There are so many reasons I don't think John should win wholly apart from the buyback. Fuck that guy, I've said it since he "met" him and I'm saying it now. FUCK THAT GUY.

[TheRealT]

I think one thing that doesn't really annoy me about John winning is that they literally didn't care who left and were possibly going to do Rock, Paper, Scissors as a last resort. So it's one of those things where they were all too chicken to target Vanessa or go after James so John & Steve ended up as the default nominees. I dunno. And plus him being gone for like 10 mins and then the cast basically calling it a reset.

This is a cast that didn't care the twins were coming in, didn't target the returnee immediately, let the one of the Showmances make it to F5 and most of them knew Vanessa Was/is running the game but just didn't want to "upset" her by putting her up. Lol. I don't think they give a crap if they give John the won.

I don't have a problem with an evicted HG winning on principle, especially given the specific circumstances of JM's eviction. Personally, I'd have more of a problem with the twins getting to spend half of the early game in a hotel room, then being in the house with a blood relative.

Edited September 16, 2015 by TheRealT

[Machiabelly]

Awwwww the Canadian BB season 1 finale vote. So awesome. LOL

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Awwwww the Canadian BB season 1 finale vote. So awesome. LOL

I LOVED loved it. It was Jillian's to win anyway.

[kellog010]

Well Vanessa did it. Wow. Now I'm worried about Steve taking her out. Maybe Austin's outburst may make people rethink keeping Liz who has 2 automatic jury votes if she makes F2.

[mooses]

Well Vanessa did it. Wow. Now I'm worried about Steve taking her out. Maybe Austin's outburst may make people rethink keeping Liz who has 2 automatic jury votes if she makes F2.

Austin's "I was going to win" was ridiculous. But his outburst would maybe get John to think about keeping Vanessa - Liz will boot her in a heartbeat.

Especially after Vanessa tells her it's better for Liz thay Austin isn't there so she did her a favor

ETA: Actually, Steve will probably ask John to boot Vanessa as well, and I think John would listen.

Edited September 16, 2015 by mooses

[Marie80]

That was well worth the wait! Best moment of the entire season. It almost made me want to start rooting for Vanessa, almost but not quite.

[ByaNose]

Well, Vanessa pulled the trigger & Austin was truly blindsided. Pretty awesome. You'd would have to hope that Liz gets evicted because she would,have to guaranteed votes, right?