Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Mabinogia]

Someone, please, please tell me Piers Morgan isn't a real human being. He can't possibly be real. I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can be so unbelievably terrible in every possible way. 

[Annber03]

Oh, good lord...there is not an eyeroll emoji big enough to respond to that Twitter image. Get over yourself, dude. 

[Hiyo]

Stephen Fry, why?

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Stephen Fry, why?

Stephen Fry is one of the most sane, reasonable people on the planet. He's an anti-Piers. Making me think he follows a LOT of people just to keep up on what they're saying. 

Now I don't know if the widget showing prominent followers is automatic, or if the account holder can CHOOSE among their followers who to display. 

If it's the second, then Fry's name showing is Piers playing "I have a gay friend" in the same way that Avatar is "I have a black friend". 

By the way, I think Piers used that Avatar FULLY expecting people to call him out on it.  His game isn't truly convincing people he can't be racist because he has a black friend. It's more insideous.  He wants people to call him a racist for posting the photo, so he can stoke the culture war and play victim for being called out. He wants to perpetuate the outrage machine, using race as the fuel. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kromm

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

Stephen Fry is one of the most sane, reasonable people on the planet. He's an anti-Piers. Making me think he follows a LOT of people just to keep up on what they're saying. 

Now I don't know if the widget showing prominent followers is automatic, or if the account holder can CHOOSE among their followers who to display. 

If it's the second, then Fry's name showing is Piers playing "I have a gay friend" in the same way that Avatar is "I have a black friend". 

By the way, I think Piers used that Avatar FULLY expecting people to call him out on it.  His game isn't truly convincing people he can't be racist because he has a black friend. It's more insideous.  He wants people to call him a racist for posting the photo, so he can stoke the culture war and play victim for being called out. He wants to perpetuate the outrage machine, using race as the fuel. 

Celebrity blue-check Twitter may be different, but regular Twitter usually just shows the people you have in common when you're looking at someone else's account, so I think whoever took the screenshot was signed in and has Stephen Fry and Entertainment Weekly in common with Piers Morgan. 

Edited to add: I have 2 Twitter accounts, and when I looked at Morgan's profile with both of them, it was highlighting other celebrities I follow who also follow his account, like Ronan Farrow. With each of my accounts, the celebrity followers differed, based on who I follow with that account. It would also highlight any non-celebrity I follow who follow him (though I don't follow anyone who does that, thankfully.) But I don't take anyone's name popping up there as them endorsing him or Morgan highlighting them. Lots of folks follow people on Twitter because they want a scoop, not because they agree with the person in question. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Zella

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Stephen Fry is one of the most sane, reasonable people on the planet. He's an anti-Piers. Making me think he follows a LOT of people just to keep up on what they're saying. 

Now I don't know if the widget showing prominent followers is automatic, or if the account holder can CHOOSE among their followers who to display. 

If it's the second, then Fry's name showing is Piers playing "I have a gay friend" in the same way that Avatar is "I have a black friend". 

By the way, I think Piers used that Avatar FULLY expecting people to call him out on it.  His game isn't truly convincing people he can't be racist because he has a black friend. It's more insideous.  He wants people to call him a racist for posting the photo, so he can stoke the culture war and play victim for being called out. He wants to perpetuate the outrage machine, using race as the fuel. 

I would put money on Stephen Fry being painfully familiar with Piers Morgan, through various showbiz events and acquaintances in common - lots of dinner parties together and social events - but I wouldn't bet a single penny on them being actual friends.

Morgan is used to being disliked. He's used to people giving him shit constantly for his awful... everything. He seems to either pretend that it's some form of friendly joshing or that he's the victim of other people being unreasonably cruel. He's also, like a lot of other narcissists, capable of flipping his opinions on someone instantly if he has a nice or unpleasant interaction with them, or if he has something to gain from treating them a certain way.

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, Kromm said:

By the way, I think Piers used that Avatar FULLY expecting people to call him out on it.  His game isn't truly convincing people he can't be racist because he has a black friend. It's more insideous.  He wants people to call him a racist for posting the photo, so he can stoke the culture war and play victim for being called out. He wants to perpetuate the outrage machine, using race as the fuel. 

This is 100% Piers' game. He is completely insidious. He is an infection. He knows exactly what he is doing, which is what makes him so dangerous. 

[biakbiak]

SuChin Pak IG’s about an racist and misogynistic incident that happened while she was at MTV.

Quote

I overheard a colleague of mine, while watching me do the news that evening, tell a room full of people that I looked like a ‘me sucky sucky love you long time’ whore,” Pak wrote, referencing a line spoken by a Vietnamese prostitute in Stanley Kubrick’s 1987 film Full Metal Jacket. “I was young, afraid as usual to cause a fuss or be seen as difficult or too ‘sensitive,’ being the only female in the newsroom, so I didn’t say anything in the moment.”

The next day she reported it and had to fight for months to have something done. 
She and her cohost, Kulap Vilaysack,  talk more about it, the fetishization of Asian women, and the murders in Georgia on their podcast Add to Cart. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by biakbiak

[Blergh]

5 hours ago, biakbiak said:

SuChin Pak IG’s about an racist and misogynistic incident that happened while she was at MTV.

The next day she reported it and had to fight for months to have something done. 
She and her cohost, Kulap Vilaysack,  talk more about it, the fetishization of Asian women, and the murders in Georgia on their podcast Add to Cart. 

Oh, the sad irony is that, back in the day, I thought that by them hiring minorities, that alone meant MTV was being progressive and fair-minded and, most importantly,   treating them fairly and with as much dignity as their white male employees (although even that distinction didn't guarantee professionalism or courtesy from TPTB or fellow employees).! Man was I ever naive!

[xaxat]

This looks awful.

 

[possibilities]

You're not the only one who thinks so:

https://tvline.com/2021/03/21/united-states-of-al-chuck-lorre-afghan-character-controversy/

Reza Alsan defends it, but I dunno....

[Mabinogia]

Just...wow. Is that Perfect Strangers 2021 style? Yikes

[DearEvette]

I saw the best description of the character on twitter.  One person called the character an "Emotional Support Persian" and given the trailer I can totally see it.  We only see him offering the family support, comfort, and counsel.  Nothing about him at all. 

[Silver Raven]

32 minutes ago, possibilities said:

You're not the only one who thinks so:

https://tvline.com/2021/03/21/united-states-of-al-chuck-lorre-afghan-character-controversy/

Reza Alsan defends it, but I dunno....

Reza Aslan's an executive producer.

The lead actor isn't even Afghan or Muslim.

 

[krankydoodle]

I've really enjoyed Parker Young and Adhir Kalyan in some of their previous roles. It's too bad they weren't able to find a better project.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

You're not the only one who thinks so:

https://tvline.com/2021/03/21/united-states-of-al-chuck-lorre-afghan-character-controversy/

Reza Alsan defends it, but I dunno....

Reading his Twitter he is doing a pretty good job of defending the show. There are four Afghan writers/producers on the show and four of the the five Afghan characters are played by Afghans. It’s based off of real Afghan interpreters living with American soldiers that were interviewed for show. I’m still skeptical but significantly less outraged that I was just watching the trailer. 

[biakbiak]

25 minutes ago, Dani said:

I’m still skeptical but significantly less outraged that I was just watching the trailer. 

I remember somewhat similar criticisms being bandied about when the trailer for Bob Hearts Abishola dropped but that many didn’t find an issue with the actual show once it aired. I don’t watch so I can’t say for certain, I also don’t plan on watching this no matter how many shots of shirtless Parker Young appear! 

[Kromm]

3 hours ago, xaxat said:

This looks awful.

 

It's Chuck Lorre. If you don't know the name, look him up.  This seems tasteful compared to most of his output.

To be fair, the little we see here doesn't seem to be about making fun of the foreigner. It seems to be the reverse approach of showing America through the lens of an outsider. Some good comedy has been done on that theme in the past. 

But I can see the pitfalls here. Even just being the outsider commenting is potentially a road to racism if that's written as his only (or even main) reason for even being there. 

2 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

The lead actor isn't even Afghan or Muslim

That's a concern. It's not like it's impossible to find Muslim actors. Afghan might be a little tougher, but still... 

[Hiyo]

Yeah, it might make more sense to watch the actual product first, not just the trailer, and then jump on the social media outrage bandwagon.

Quote

The lead actor isn't even Afghan or Muslim

Quote

That's a concern. It's not like it's impossible to find Muslim actors. Afghan might be a little tougher, but still... 

That's never been an issue for me, though I can see how stuff like that might be an issue for others. As long as they are good in their role, that's all that matters for me (see Sayid from Lost).

Edited March 22, 2021 by Hiyo

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

That's a concern. It's not like it's impossible to find Muslim actors. Afghan might be a little tougher, but still... 

According to Reza Aslan 

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

It's Chuck Lorre. If you don't know the name, look him up.  This seems tasteful compared to most of his output.

Chuck Lorre gets a bit of a bad rap, albeit for good reasons. Mom has done a very good job with serious issues and doesn’t fit the Lorre mold. Bob Hearts Abishola isn’t a particularly strong comedy but it does do a good job with representation both in front of and behind the camera. 

[Fukui San]

8 hours ago, xaxat said:

This looks awful.

 

This seems "Mostly Harmless" which is a damn sight better than I was expecting when I clicked the link.

I mean, it'll probably be a mediocre quality comedy, but it beats being the villains on a season of 24 again. (I would guess, not being Afghan or Muslim myself but a different minority group)

[Spartan Girl]

Matt Groening: “I’m proud of Apu.”

He pays lip service to diversity, I feel like he still hasn’t learned a damn thing. Please just let The Simpsons die.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Matt Groening: “I’m proud of Apu.”

He pays lip service to diversity, I feel like he still hasn’t learned a damn thing. Please just let The Simpsons die.

The whole issue of non-white animation characters being changed to being played by non-white voice actors is all about lip service. I mean it is great that Apu and Cleveland Brown are now being played by Indian and Black voice actors. But those characters are probably the most well known Indian and Black characters in TV animation and they are at best secondary characters. So is it really a big win for diversity if Cleveland is voiced by a black actor but still only gets maybe a couple of lines per episode?

[biakbiak]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So is it really a big win for diversity if Cleveland is voiced by a black actor but still only gets maybe a couple of lines per episode?

Given that all of the voices are white dudes doing sterotupical accents it is at very least a start. 

[Kel Varnsen]

10 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Given that all of the voices are white dudes doing sterotupical accents it is at very least a start. 

I hope so. My worry since this started becoming an issue that got coverage is for example that the idea that only Black voice actors can play Black characters just becomes Black voice actors can only play Black characters. And when your Black characters are mostly just background characters that doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

[DearEvette]

I think there is a difference between intentionally writing a character who is:< insert race, religion, ethnicity> here vs. casting an actor who happens to be < insert race, religion, ethnicity> in a role not written for any specific nationalit/race etc.

With the former, since it is intentional, I would think that aspect is important to the story you are telling in some way. Which is why casting becomes critical as well.  If it was so important to have that aspect of the character then it needs to feel authentic with how the role is being cast.

With the latter, the urgency isn't there, but when you do have a diverse cast, it is important not to re-marginalize the already marginalized person. Start filling in the blanks with their backstory over the course of the show taking advantage of the diversity you have.

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And when your Black characters are mostly just background characters that doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

Much as I hate to admit it, in this particular case, it's arguably a market acceptance thing.  The Cleveland Show DID exist, and very few people watched. 

But at the same time let's not act like Seth MacFarlane and Matt Groening represent all of animation.  The Proud Family existed.  The Boondocks existed.  The PJs. Static Shock. And others.  It's not been a great situation for success of these shows, but getting tied in knots over Family Guy and The Simpsons is arguably looking back instead of forward. Sure, those two shows only have black characters as background, but what's your solution if you're not going to talk about other shows?  Cancel Family Guy and The Simpsons? 

 

[biakbiak]

57 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Cancel Family Guy and The Simpsons? 

Literally no one is asking for that. The core characters of both of those shows are white. Write out the side characters or diversify the casting it’s really not that hard. Big Mouth and several other animated shows: and movies in production  recasted voice roles and the characters continued to play important roles without white people voicing them. 

The entire point is that they have ignored actors who could fill those roles and defaulted to white people. I mean legitimately everyone cringes at Mickey Rooney playing the Chinese role in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. Why is it different in animation?

Edited March 22, 2021 by biakbiak

[Spartan Girl]

I’d be fine if they cancelled Family Guy and The Simpsons not because of diversity issues but because both shows have gotten so stale and have long overstayed their welcome. 

[DearEvette]

9 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Big Mouth and several other animated shows: and movies in production  recasted voice roles and the characters continued to play important roles without white people voicing them. 

I actually liked the way Big Mouth handled the voice actor change over. It was tied to Missy learning more about the black side of herself,  She is biracial and the previous seasons on the show really don't, iirc, acknowledge Missy being non-white at all.  There was some look at to her being Jewish but really nothing about her being black.  She was just a biracial girl who presents as black physically but her race was never (or rarely enough that I forgot) acknowledged.

So in this past season she goes down south to visit her father's side of the family and her black cousins (I mean...I felt that having gone to Georgia for many summer to vision paternal grandparents and cousins from that side of the family).  From there she learns the fine art of code switching.  And in a follow up episode she delves deeper into figuring out that you can be different things to different people (another type of code switching) and that is when the voice change over happens.  Truthfully the new voice actress isn’t so radically different from the previous voice actress that it is jarring or takes you out of the story.  And my understanding from the showrunners is that they will continue to be a  conscious of Missy's identity over the coming season and has big plans for the character.

Edited March 23, 2021 by DearEvette

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Literally no one is asking for that. The core characters of both of those shows are white. Write out the side characters or diversify the casting it’s really not that hard. Big Mouth and several other animated shows: and movies in production  recasted voice roles and the characters continued to play important roles without white people voicing them. 

But the previous discussion was ABOUT that kind of recasting happening, then a complaint that nevertheless they were side characters. Exactly what you just stated. 

My point was that this debate isn't happening in a vacuum.  Animated shows about people of color have existed.  Maybe the answer is to better support THOSE shows than to keep harping about The Simpsons and Family Guy, even AFTER they've done those recastings.  I'm saying, you aren't going to recreate those shows.  We're not going to seriously do away with them (I was being sarcastic about that), so focus on the diverse shows.  Promote them. Ask for more of them. Etc. 

[biakbiak]

10 minutes ago, Kromm said:

point was that this debate isn't happening in a vacuum.  Animated shows about people of color have existed.  Maybe the answer is to better support THOSE shows than to keep harping about The Simpsons and Family Guy, even AFTER they've done those recastings.  I'm saying, you aren't going to recreate those shows

Because Matt Groening gave a completely tone deaf answer and doesn’t seem to give a shit about valid criticism of a hurtful cliche stereotyped character.   His interview is what renewed the conversation not the fans. He has actually avoided commenting previously when the actors made that choices for themselves and that is crazy shitty of him on a variety of levels.

Edited March 22, 2021 by biakbiak

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, biakbiak said:

The entire point is that they have ignored actors who could fill those roles and defaulted to white people. I mean legitimately everyone cringes at Mickey Rooney playing the Chinese role in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. Why is it different in animation?

But the great thing about doing voice work for animation is you don't have to look anything like the part you are playing. I can honestly see the execs at Fox looking at their Sunday animated lineup and saying that by recasting Apu, Cleveland and Dr. Hibbert that now diversity in the recording studio is no longer a problem. But why limit it to having people play someone they look like. If you want diversify in the recording studio to match actual society (and the writing doesn't support it) recast Flanders or Burns either instead of or as well as Apu. Doing something like that would diversify the cast a lot more than having an African American actor show up a couple of times a season to record some Dr. Hibbert one liners.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But the great thing about doing voice work for animation is you don't have to look anything like the part you are playing.

Clearly when it comes to stereotypes and basically black/brown face and other POC the show had ridiculous cliched “accents”  many, many people disagree with you. It’s not a coincidence that most of these shows that even the POC roles are largely voiced by White people and that is crazy fucked up and just one of a gazillion examples of how systemic racism is in society and in the entertainment industry.

I mean The Boondocks managed to employ white voice actors for parts that weren’t the core black characters. The Simpsons could at least employ some regulars who aren’t white. Something that a lot of the white actors and white writers have been recommending for years. Also, call me crazy but maybe they could have even more than one black writers in the room at the same time! Hell maybe even hire some POC women writers! I know insane in 2021! I bet they could do it. I mean even the Harvard Lampoon where they get most of the writers is more diverse. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by biakbiak

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Clearly when it comes to stereotypes and basically black,  brown face and other minorities and ridiculous cliched “accents”  many, many people disagree with you. It’s not a coincidence that most of these shows that even the POC roles are largely voiced by White people and that is crazy fucked up and just one of a gazillion examples of how systemic racism is in society and in the entertainment industry: 

I do get that Groening continues to ge a clod, but in my opinion, at least withe The Simpsons, I don't think we can ignore the fact that there basically was NO casting process for most of the roles on the show.  They used the same few voice talents over and over. That doesn't excuse it, because it still falls under the "systemic" descriptor, but I do think it softens the situation a hair, because it wasn't a decision being made over and over, it was basically a single bad decision ("have Harry or Phil do everything") which perpetuated itself. It's bad, but easier to see how it happened.  

Again, if Groening (who isn't even the biggest decisionmaker on the show despite being the creator) is still flapping his lips about it, that's a shame. But in my opinion there are far bigger mountains to climb at this point. If similar shows are done more ethically in the future on terms of racial casting?  That's all I'd personally ask. The past is the past. I can't even summon the energy to curse the whole franchise. It's a shame, but not a ruiner for me. 

[biakbiak]

5 minutes ago, Kromm said:

The past is the past

But The Simpsons isn’t in the past it’s now and has been renewed until at least 2023. 

[Kromm]

17 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

But The Simpsons isn’t in the past it’s now and has been renewed until at least 2023. 

I understand that. But I'm saying that people accept that even if Groening is a loudmouth (and face it, not really running the show) that the show made some changes, but won't ever make everyone happy.  But it's just one show.  I'm not saying "move on" in the face of something still hugely culturally relevant.  Even renewed... It's just not. Hold future shows' feet to the fire.  Let The Simpsons be a relic that did the minimum possible... but at least (eventually) did that. 

If there wasn't increasing signs that diverse content is becoming normal elsewhere, I'd be more upset about this relic not being so. But renewed or not, it's a relic.  And other shows aren't. 

Heck, I literally think it's been a decade since I've watched a new Simpsons episode (even if I'll occasionally still watch classic older clips from the early years of the show on YouTube).  Like most people, I think I just stopped caring about the show, even if I still have some affection for its early years. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Kromm

[biakbiak]

Just now, Kromm said:

Let The Simpsons be a relic that did the minimum possible... but at least (eventually) did that. 

The “show” didn’t do even the bare minimum, the actors forced the change. And it’s not just a relic. People have rightfully pointed out similar issues on another “relic” SNL and they have inched forward to being more inclusive, why does The Simpson’s when many get to be exempt from societal pressures? 

[Kromm]

2 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

The “show” didn’t do even the bare minimum, the actors forced the change. And it’s not just a relic. People have rightfully pointed out similar issues on another “relic” SNL and they have inched forward to being more inclusive, why does The Simpson’s when many get to be exempt from societal pressures? 

Because nobody's suggested a realistic plan of how to do that.  The show doesn't really change. The core characters are what they are, and use 95% of the screen time. The side characters have been recast, but aren't magically going to become the core of the show. 

[possibilities]

I think we can both support better shows and criticize shows with problems. Even if the shows don't change, people hear the criticism and it is better to have the ideas floating around the zeitgeist than to silence people who are being hurt. Media does make a difference in people's consciousness. That's why representation matters, and bad representation is damaging. I don't think just ignoring it helps anything. 

Also, race and racism is about more than how people look. Voice acting isn't exempt from matters of representation and respect just because the actors aren't seen.

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Because nobody's suggested a realistic plan of how to do that.  The show doesn't really change. The core characters are what they are, and use 95% of the screen time. The side characters have been recast, but aren't magically going to become the core of the show. 

The show can give the non-white characters more to do without significantly changing the show. After 30+ years those are by far the least developed characters of the show. Plenty of other side characters have been the focal point of episodes and they could choose to do the same with characters like Carl or Dr. Hibbert. Or they can bring in new characters. The argument isn’t that the non-white characters should become the core of the show but that they shouldn’t be shoved to the side and be given a single line or catchphrase once or twice a season. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Guest

[Hiyo]

Personally, I don't care who voices the characters, I just want to be entertained. If people find that Apu speaking in a stereotypical accent (which, honestly, given his background, not that stereotypical) is not good when it's a white VA, but suddenly that accent is ok because it's now voiced by the correct ethnicity? Ok then.

Again, I don't really care how diverse the cast is, I watch a show to be entertained. As a teen I loved both the original 90210 and A Different World, despite having nothing in common with the kids on either show, nor did I care that I was not "represented" on either show. I just liked both shows, I found them entertaining and enjoyable to watch.

Another unpopular opinion, but I never got the authenticity argument for voice acting, or for acting in general. Just hire whoever is best for the job, even if it means you have a white person voicing a black character, a black character voicing an Asian character, whatever. For me, authenticity should be the responsibility of the people behind the scenes, the writers, directors, and producers (this applies to movies as well as TV shows).

[aradia22]

Quote

Chuck Lorre gets a bit of a bad rap, albeit for good reasons. 

Strike 1: CBS

Strike 2: Chuck Lorre

I also want better for Parker Young and Dean Norris. Jane Levy has found minor success since Suburgatory but everything Parker gets seems to flop. I did laugh through that trailer... but for the wrong reasons.

Though shockingly, from what I've seen of Young Sheldon it's a pretty innocuous straightforward sitcom and generally sweet and good-natured, if unchallenging.

Quote

He pays lip service to diversity, I feel like he still hasn’t learned a damn thing. Please just let The Simpsons die.

Even if it does, the elder millennials will never stop talking about the show so no reprieve there. Sigh...

Quote

But at the same time let's not act like Seth MacFarlane and Matt Groening represent all of animation.  The Proud Family existed.  The Boondocks existed.  The PJs. Static Shock. And others.

I'm not up on current cartoons but I haven't heard of a show like that in a while. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the shows today seem "diverse" with a primarily white cast. I guess there was Avatar/Korra but that's finished, right?

[biakbiak]

9 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

good when it's a white VA, but suddenly that accent is ok because it's now voiced by the correct ethnicity? Ok then.

Well no because Apu hasn’t spoken a word since 2017 when Hank stopped doing the voice. Have you seen or read anything about the documentary The Problem with Apu? It delves into much more than just the voice. But representation matters even if it’s just a voice. I mean people who guest voice  on the show still freak out because it’s such an honor but literally all the main voices are white people.

Edited March 23, 2021 by biakbiak

[Hiyo]

Quote

But representation matters even if it’s just a voice.

We will have to disagree on that.

And yeah I saw the documentary, it didn't really change my opinions.

[biakbiak]

4 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

We will have to disagree on that.

And yeah I saw the documentary, it didn't really change my opinions

4 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

We will have to disagree on that.

You don’t think it matters that people don’t just hire white people? would you be okay if Hank Azaria painted his skin brown to play Apu in real life?

Edited March 23, 2021 by biakbiak

[Hiyo]

Quote

You don’t think it matters that people don’t just hire white people?

I never said or alluded to that.

Quote

would you be okay if Hank Azaria painted his skin brown to play Apu in real life?

Not the same thing.

[biakbiak]

Just now, Hiyo said:

Not the same thing.

How is it any different? Just because you don’t seem him physically doing brown face?

1 minute ago, Hiyo said:

never said or alluded to that.

You did when you said that representation doesn’t matter. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

How is it any different? Just because you don’t seem him physically doing brown face?

It just is different. You see it as brown face, I don't. Simple as that.

[biakbiak]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

It just is different. You see it as brown face, I don't. Simple as that.

Hank also came to see it as brown face and it’s why he stopped doing it.

Edited March 23, 2021 by biakbiak