Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

The Simpson’s will no longer have white actors voicing characters of color. Hank Azaria had already stated he would no longer voice Apu several months ago.

Also, Big Mouth is recasting the role of Missy who is bi-racial previously voiced by Jenny Slate and Central Park is recasting the bi-racial character voiced by Kristen Bell.

I think I might respected what the Simpsons or Family Guy more if they said that they were going to embrace diversity in the voice cast, but at the same time believe that anyone can do any voice. And then said that Homer and/or Marge, or Brian or Stewie would be played by a black voice actor. Because otherwise I can see "only black actors can voice black character" easily becoming "black actors can only voice black characters". And in alot of animated shows the black and other minority characters are at best tertiary characters.

[Spartan Girl]

They should have done this a long time ago. I'd be more impressed if The Simpsons hadn't spent years shrugging off the problem with Apu and responding with "oh shut up, we make fun of everyone, shut up." As it is, it doesn't change the fact that both The Simpsons and Family Guy have become terrible.

[Danny Franks]

Futurama were better on this, with Lauren Tom voicing Amy Wong and Phil LaMarr voicing Hermes Conrad. Although they did have white voice actors do some of the side characters, like Barbados Slim and Amy's parents.

I think it's easy to consider voice acting a 'colour blind' job for... well, for obvious reasons. But if that were the case, then non-white voice actors would be able to get jobs voicing white characters, and I bet that doesn't happen. Except for James Earl Jones, of course.

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think I might respected what the Simpsons or Family Guy more if they said that they were going to embrace diversity in the voice cast, but at the same time believe that anyone can do any voice. And then said that Homer and/or Marge, or Brian or Stewie would be played by a black voice actor. Because otherwise I can see "only black actors can voice black character" easily becoming "black actors can only voice black characters". And in alot of animated shows the black and other minority characters are at best tertiary characters.

That’s definitely a concern but at the moment isn’t it a case of “black actors can only voice some black characters.” 

Improving the diversity of the actors is really only changing the most visible evidence of racism in the industry. Improving diversity among executives, producers, directors and writers will naturally result in more diverse casts. I’d have a lot more respect for the Simpsons and Family Guy if they said they were going to embrace diversity in the writers room. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

I think it's easy to consider voice acting a 'colour blind' job for... well, for obvious reasons. But if that were the case, then non-white voice actors would be able to get jobs voicing white characters, and I bet that doesn't happen.

Yes, unlike real life acting, voice acting can be color blind. But...it needs to go all ways, not just white actors voicing non-white roles, but more non-white actors should be given the chance to voice white roles as well.

Quote

And then said that Homer and/or Marge, or Brian or Stewie would be played by a black voice actor.

Or Hispanic or Asian or Arab or Other Middle Eastern voice actors...

Quote

I'd be more impressed if The Simpsons hadn't spent years shrugging off the problem with Apu and responding with "oh shut up, we make fun of everyone, shut up."

You also need the writing as well. Lets be honest, would Apu have been less sensitive all these years had the voice actor been Indian or Indian-American with the same writing?

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Dani said:

That’s definitely a concern but at the moment isn’t it a case of “black actors can only voice some black characters.” 

I don't know I can see a situation where say the Simpsons says we have fixed our diversity problem because Carl and Dr. Hibbert are played by black voice actors. Yet those characters, and other minority characters, only get a couple of lines every few episodes.

5 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes, unlike real life acting, voice acting can be color blind. But...it needs to go all ways, not just white actors voicing non-white roles, but more non-white actors should be given the chance to voice white roles as well.

Of course. I generally hate the idea that voice actors or even regular actors can only play characters if they are exactly like that character. An Indian actor could play Apu but could just as easily play Mr. Burns. With Big Mouth there is also Nick Kroll playing a girl, John Mullaney playing a Jewish kid and Jason Mantzoukas playing a bisexual kid. If any of those become an issue the show is done.

And if you just stick to someone can only play a character if they are that character we wouldn't have gotten Neil Patrick Harris as a very active straight guy or Jared Harris as a Russian scientist.

Animated stuff is weird too since the voice performance is only part of the character.  For the Simpsons even if you have black actors voicing black characters all of the characters are still animated by South Koreans.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I don't know I can see a situation where say the Simpsons says we have fixed our diversity problem because Carl and Dr. Hibbert are played by black voice actors. Yet those characters, and other minority characters, only get a couple of lines every few episodes.

I agree. Which is exactly why I also said that they need to improve diversity at all levels of the entertainment business. What is happening now is important but in many ways it’s a smoke screen obscuring the underlying problem. Real and lasting improvement will only happen when changes are made behind the camera. 

 

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

And if you just stick to someone can only play a character if they are that character we wouldn't have gotten Neil Patrick Harris as a very active straight guy or Jared Harris as a Russian scientist.

I understand your point but I thinks it’s important to point out Neil Patrick Harris wasn’t out when HIMYM started. Personally I have my doubts that he would have ever been cast in the role if it he had been. At the moment I can’t think of any out actors who have been cast to play a “very active straight” character. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Guest

[supposebly]

4 minutes ago, Dani said:

At the moment I can’t think of any out actors who have been cast to play a very active straight character. 

John Barrowman on Arrow springs to mind. 

Not sure what is meant by "very active"? A straight womanizer type character?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

John Barrowman on Arrow springs to mind. 

Not sure what is meant by "very active"? A straight womanizer type character?

Whoops, I meant to put that part in quotes since it wasn’t my phrase. I read it as a womanizer since it was in reference to Barney from HIMYM. 
 

I did think of Barrowman but wasn’t sure since his character didn’t really fit that description. I think, possibly, Matt Bomer but I haven’t watched everything he’s done after White Collar. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Guest

[Blergh]

Girl Meets World- 'Girl Meets the Great Lady of New York'- while Zay had a very moving account of at least half his ancestry being traced to Ghana via Haiti to Texas and Farkle had an even more moving account of his paternal great-grandfather having been Jewish but being adopted by a Danish Christian family to survive WWII, it's puzzling why they totally failed to give Riley (their central character) any ethnic background besides 'American' and her wailing about not finding a booth on the school's culture day. I mean,  the performer playing Riley (Rowan   Blanchard) is of Syrian, Armenian, Norwegian, English descent(among others)  while  the performer playing her father Cory (Ben  Savage) is of Eastern European Ashkenazi Jewish descent and the performer playing her mother Topanga (Danielle Fishel) is of German, English, Scottish, Irish descent on her father's side and Maltese on her mother's side.  So there were at least ten potential  different ethnic origins that the writers could have gone for for Riley (any and all of   could have yielded fascinating ancestral stories) but they chickened out by just saying she was 'American' with too blah a background for her to bother detailing. Why? I think even Riley (and the viewers) deserved better!

 And I say the above as someone who considered that character to be the least likable on the show .

Edited June 28, 2020 by Blergh

[Trini]

A bunch of episodes of comedies are being pulled from streaming services if they have scenes of blackface, or anything close to it. I'm not sure if it's warranted for every instance, but no one is taking a chance these days.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

A bunch of episodes of comedies are being pulled from streaming services if they have scenes of blackface, or anything close to it. I'm not sure if it's warranted for every instance, but no one is taking a chance these days.

I have been seeing this and am I'm like damn how many shows had a blackface episode and how the hell was this ok? 

Of the shows listed the only one I watched was Community and honestly, I would not consider that a blackface episode in the sense that it was meant to "represent" black people or how we think of blackface, but ymmv.  It was Chang cosplaying a dark elf for a Dungeons and Dragons game, and frankly he looked more blue than black to me, but again ymmv.  Shirley does make the very funny comment 'Oh so we just gonna ignore this hate crime?'

On a completely different note, I just finished the first season of Person of Interest, and holy cow, talk about a show that does not in any way make police look heroic.  Trevor Noah did an episode of the Daily Show where he talks about television 'Copaganda' -- the plethora of cop shows that make sure police look good and heroic even when they are beating up people.   But lordy, POI is definitely NOT one of them. I remember the HR storyline and of course that is the storyine that finally got Carter killed, but on re-watch the utter corruption from top to bottom is relentless.  I had not remembered that at all.  It gets to the point where anytime they introduced a new cop I was sure they were dirty an Carter can't trust them (and it turns out to be true).  At this point (I don't remember much) but I am sure the only good cops are Carter and Szymanski.  LOL.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

At this point (I don't remember much) but I am sure the only good cops are Carter and Szymanski.  LOL.

Plus Cal Beecher who was played by Sterling K Brown. He joins Taraji P Henson on the list of amazing actors wasted on POI who went on to much bigger things. 
 

Crap, after looking at the show’s IMDb I have to add Winston Duke and Leslie Odom Jr to that list. And I think they were are killed on the show. Now I’m bitter again. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Guest

[Trini]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Of the shows listed the only one I watched was Community and honestly, I would not consider that a blackface episode in the sense that it was meant to "represent" black people or how we think of blackface, but ymmv.  It was Chang cosplaying a dark elf for a Dungeons and Dragons game, and frankly he looked more blue than black to me, but again ymmv.  Shirley does make the very funny comment 'Oh so we just gonna ignore this hate crime?'

Yeah, that's what I meant. And at least Shirley calls it out.

 

25 minutes ago, Dani said:

Crap, looking at the show IMDb I have to add Winston Duke and Leslie Odom Jr to that list. And I think they were are killed on the show. Now I’m bitter again. 

At least Winston Duke's character had a decent arc... before getting killed off. 😬 But yeah, it was cool to see 'that dude that was on POI' make it in Black Panther.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Of the shows listed the only one I watched was Community and honestly, I would not consider that a blackface episode in the sense that it was meant to "represent" black people or how we think of blackface, but ymmv.  It was Chang cosplaying a dark elf for a Dungeons and Dragons game, and frankly he looked more blue than black to me, but again ymmv.  Shirley does make the very funny comment 'Oh so we just gonna ignore this hate crime?'

The Community one definitely shouldn't count. Chang's face and hands are literally painted black (or very, very dark blue, hard to tell) and he's wearing a white hair wig, because he's playing a fantasy race character. It's like saying he couldn't wear green paint if he was playing an orc.

As for Scrubs, I think there's an episode where JD imagines what he'd be like if he was black, and it's played as though he thinks it would make him cooler and more attractive (probably because the person he loves most in the entire world is black). So... I guess there's a fetishization aspect to it that's weird. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Danny Franks

[biakbiak]

9 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

As for Scrubs, I think there's an episode where JD imagines what he'd be like if he was black

There are three episodes of Scrubs that use blackface. 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

There are three episodes of Scrubs that use blackface. 

Fair enough. The one I remember has a quick shot of JD made up in black face, with a jheri curl wig, bobbing his head.

Edit: So apparently the other two examples are - JD imagining Elliot as Turk, so she's in brown makeup and has a bald cap on, as well as a fake beard. I don't really remember what the joke was, beyond the visual.

And third - JD and Turk go to a fancy dress party, one in blackface the other in whiteface. JD gets split up from Turk, and a bunch of black people are less than enthused about his 'costume'. That one is... I don't know... still seems like JD is the butt of the joke. He thinks it's okay to wear blackface because his best friend is black and agreed it was okay (in this particular context). Doesn't mean anyone else will be okay with it. But there is the suggestion that black people will attack him over it, so I suppose that falls into the stereotype of black people (men, in particular) as violent and angry.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

A bunch of episodes of comedies are being pulled from streaming services if they have scenes of blackface, or anything close to it. I'm not sure if it's warranted for every instance, but no one is taking a chance these days.

The only one of those I’ve watched is Golden Girls and I’m really disappointed that particular episode is being pulled entirely. That’s the episode where Dorothy’s son gets engaged to a black woman. I haven’t seen it in years but it was extremely progressive and supportive of interracial marriages. The blackface in this case is Rose and Blanche walking in with mud masks on their face. 
 

I wonder if the similar episode of Seinfeld with an overly tanned Kramer meeting his black girlfriend’s parent for the first time will also be pulled. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Guest

[methodwriter85]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

The only one of those I’ve watched is Golden Girls and I’m really disappointed that particular episode is being pulled entirely. That’s the episode where Dorothy’s son gets engaged to a black woman. I haven’t seen it in years but it was extremely progressive and supportive of interracial marriages. The blackface in this case is Rose and Blanche walking in with mud masks on their face. 
 

I wonder if the similar episode of Seinfeld with an overly tanned Kramer meeting his black girlfriend’s parent for the first time will also be pulled. 

There was an episode of Nip/Tuck where a white man gets his eyes redone to try to look Asian because he's meeting his fiancee's traditional Asian parents. You only see the results for a very brief time, though.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

And third - JD and Turk go to a fancy dress party, one in blackface the other in whiteface. JD gets split up from Turk, and a bunch of black people are less than enthused about his 'costume'. That one is... I don't know... still seems like JD is the butt of the joke. He thinks it's okay to wear blackface because his best friend is black and agreed it was okay (in this particular context). Doesn't mean anyone else will be okay with it. But there is the suggestion that black people will attack him over it, so I suppose that falls into the stereotype of black people (men, in particular) as violent and angry.

There’s a clip of this one on YouTube. It’s a flashback to what looks like a college frat party. JD knows it’s a bad idea and expresses doubt as they walk up. Turk reassures him that his friends will find it funny as long as they are together. Just after they ring the doorbell Turk gets distracted and walks off leaving JD standing alone in blackface when the door opens. He then gets yanked offscreen and you hear the sound of punching. The attack was played in a cartoon way. The joke is that Turk is a horrible wingman. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Golden Girls and I’m really disappointed that particular episode is being pulled entirely. That’s the episode where Dorothy’s son gets engaged to a black woman. I haven’t seen it in years but it was extremely progressive and supportive of interracial marriages. The blackface in this case is Rose and Blanche walking in with mud masks on their face. 

Yeah, I remember that episode, and it's a bit of a reach to lump that in with some of the other examples of black face.

Quote

JD imagining Elliot as Turk, so she's in brown makeup and has a bald cap on, as well as a fake beard. I don't really remember what the joke was, beyond the visual.

Draw your own conclusion...

 

[crimsongrl]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

On a completely different note, I just finished the first season of Person of Interest, and holy cow, talk about a show that does not in any way make police look heroic.  Trevor Noah did an episode of the Daily Show where he talks about television 'Copaganda' -- the plethora of cop shows that make sure police look good and heroic even when they are beating up people.   But lordy, POI is definitely NOT one of them. I remember the HR storyline and of course that is the storyine that finally got Carter killed, but on re-watch the utter corruption from top to bottom is relentless.  I had not remembered that at all.  It gets to the point where anytime they introduced a new cop I was sure they were dirty an Carter can't trust them (and it turns out to be true).  At this point (I don't remember much) but I am sure the only good cops are Carter and Szymanski.  LOL.

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

The Community one definitely shouldn't count. Chang's face and hands are literally painted black (or very, very dark blue, hard to tell) and he's wearing a white hair wig, because he's playing a fantasy race character. It's like saying he couldn't wear green paint if he was playing an orc.

The community one is a tough one. I can see how people on the surface might be upset about. They even comment about it in the episode. At the same time though it is legitimately about suicide prevention.

[Danny Franks]

4 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yeah, I remember that episode, and it's a bit of a reach to lump that in with some of the other examples of black face.

Draw your own conclusion...

 

Okay, so the joke is JD's half-accepted bi-tendencies towards Turk, as well as his unresolved attraction to Elliot. Still not sure how I feel about that one. I think that, since Elliot is literally meant to be Turkiot, it makes sense for them to have done it like this.

[Hiyo]

The only other option I guess would be to have Donald Faison in a low cut top with a padded bra on, while sporting a blond wig, I guess? 😉

[Danny Franks]

18 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

The only other option I guess would be to have Donald Faison in a low cut top with a padded bra on, while sporting a blond wig, I guess? 😉

I'm listening....

[Dejana]

I didn't watch Person of Interest, and only saw promos during football or print ads that featured Michael Emerson and Jim Caviezel. I knew Taraji was on the show but figured she had a smaller role than them. Taraji made it clear she was not pleased about being left out of the show's promotional materials. When the show was going off the air, showrunners Greg Plageman and Jonah Nolan were doing finale press and mentioned CBS pressure to center the initial show publicity around the two white guys:

 

Quote

DEADLINE: POI was a rare series that killed off its female lead, played by Taraji P. Henson. Looking back on that decision, is it still something that you feel you should have done or are you having second thoughts now?

PLAGEMAN: I would just say that was a mutual decision. Taraji really wanted to go do other projects and we crafted a narrative that we felt was in keeping with the character. We parted on amicable terms.

 

NOLAN: We loved working with Taraji and one of the reasons why we parted on great terms and very proud of the material we did was you have this incredibly talented actor who’s so known for her range in addition to everything else. It’s incredibly exciting watching what she’s doing in Empire. I think one of the things from the beginning that I certainly regret is that, we had a great relationship with Warners and CBS but the decision was made early on not to feature Taraji prominently in the advertising for the show and I think that was a mistake. Greg, jump in if you think I’m being too direct. It’s difficult.

When you start these things off, conversations are had, and we had a lot of arguments back and forth about it, but the decision was made to sell the show as a two-hander and I think, in hindsight, it feels like you have this fantastic, commercially appealing, incredibly talented female lead and she’s not on the poster. It’s always hard to figure out how to market these things in the first place. You don’t want to second guess these things too much but I think that was a mistake. I was never happier than when I was walking down Ventura Boulevard and saw a bus pass with a picture of Taraji Henson on the side of it. I thought that’s fantastic. We’re thrilled for her.

I would change very, very few things about what we did with the show from the beginning. I would have fought even harder to ensure that Taraji was on the poster in the beginning, but I wouldn’t change any of the moves that we made along the way in terms of big character movement. I think part of the reason why our fans are as die-hard and rabid as they are is because the show took risks. We weren’t interested in cashing checks for the rest of our careers.

 

Since Taraji's career had really blown up by then, you have to wonder how much of that was CYA from the old show that let her go. On the other hand, it's not like CBS primetime, especially back then, was this bastion of progressivism overall, so it's entirely believable the network wouldn't want a black woman to shine too much. 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Dejana

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

Since Taraji's career had really blown up by then, you have to wonder how much of that was CYA from the old show that let her go. On the other hand, it's not like CBS primetime, especially back then, was this bastion of progressivism overall, so it's entirely believable the network wouldn't want a black woman to shine too much. 

That’s an interesting interview. As someone who watched the show all the way to the end I think it was a lot of different issues. I have no doubt that there was outright racism from CBS involved. I really do believe the showrunners and writers genuinely wanted Taraji to shine and did what they felt was their best by the character. I think the problems with the character that led to her wanting to leave was partly the systemic racism that limited the character and partly the preferences of the writers. POI leaned towards writing either the complex villain or the anti-hero and her character didn’t fit that mold. She was the shows moral compass and mostly reacted to the world around her. She had some amazing episodes but it was mostly a thankless role. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Guest

[biakbiak]

For what it’s worth this is what Bill Lawerence has to say about the blackface episodes and how he feels about them now. He also said that he is going to look for an opportunity to discuss his feelings further but doesn’t believe Twitter is a good place for that. Wouldn’t be surprised if they do an episode of Zach and Donald’s Scrubs podcast to talk about it further.

 

[angora]

For me, a lot of those blackface moments on these shows depict the character in question as doing a bad thing/being offensive, but the tone of it plays very "oopsy racist!", basically good (or at least decent) people stumbling into offense with a boneheaded move. But the thing is, even if a character (or show) isn't intending to be hateful or hurtful, that's how many people feel when they see those images, regardless of the intention. By continually framing blackface just a dumb mistake/accidental offense, it ignores the feelings of people who were just sitting down to watch one of their favorite comedies and then got blindsided by seeing their favorite characters in blackface for the sake of a joke.

[xaxat]

Bunk, from The Wire, wants a new job.

 

[biakbiak]

Wendell tagged the wrong account forSeth. So Don Cheadle has also applied. It’s probably the most attention the show has gotten in years.

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Wendell tagged the wrong account forSeth. So Don Cheadle has also applied. It’s probably the most attention the show has gotten in years.

 

Who wouldn't want that job. Voice acting has to be one of the easiest actor gigs I. Hollywood. Especially for a secondary character like Cleveland. You can probably record a whole season's worth of lines in a couple of hours. And you still get paid by the episode.

Also I just found out that in Canada the CTV streaming app still has the Community episode Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. So I watched it both to see if it is as good as I remember and too see how bad the blackface is. And it is a tough call, not only does Shirley call it a hate crime but Pierce actually calls him blackface. But the recognize and  help a friend from suicide message is really strong. When Tina Fey pulled the 30 Rock episodes she said something like how she didn't want a someone just getting into the show to see one of those episodes and think hurtful humour like that was they were trying to do. Especially if the person watching was black. And I could see how the producers of Community might see it the same way. But I wonder if the help a friend not kill themselves part in this case is a more important thing for viewers to take away. I am not sure the answer to that.

[xaxat]

BET came out on fire for their awards show.

I think this is fantastic. However,  this song is thirty years old. It's depressing that it is still applicable today.

(And they are still dunking on Bobby McFerrin.)

[possibilities]

5 hours ago, angora said:

For me, a lot of those blackface moments on these shows depict the character in question as doing a bad thing/being offensive, but the tone of it plays very "oopsy racist!", basically good (or at least decent) people stumbling into offense with a boneheaded move. But the thing is, even if a character (or show) isn't intending to be hateful or hurtful, that's how many people feel when they see those images, regardless of the intention. By continually framing blackface just a dumb mistake/accidental offense, it ignores the feelings of people who were just sitting down to watch one of their favorite comedies and then got blindsided by seeing their favorite characters in blackface for the sake of a joke.

Decades ago when I was studying French literature of... I forget what century, but one of the ones where you could go to jail for writing "smut" -- there was a loophole where you could write entire novels about people sexing it up and being "immoral" as long as, by the end of the book, everyone either died of a sexually transmitted disease or was marched off to jail or in some other way was made to suffer terribly for their "sins." Many of these books became "classics" of French literature that are taught in universities, and let me tell you-- it made me really wish I hadn't become a French major. I'm not anti-smut, but those books were terrible.

I don't think sex censorship and blackface are the same thing, but I do think that blackface jokes that are done under cover of "isn't this character terrible-- tee hee, so funny!" is kind of a similar hedge. It's only funny if you don't think that blackface is a big deal in the first place. Making it into a joke kind of implies that yeah, we know it bothers you, but we are going to do it anyway because we don't understand or respect your feelings, and regardless of what anyone else may say, we think it isn't THAT bad, and we want to find a way around the prohibition.

Like those French novels, it posits that as long as you punish the person you can get away with it, because you found the loophole. Doing this communicates that you personally aren't bothered by it enough to take the prohibition seriously, and that you really want to talk about how you feel as the person who wants to use blackface, rather than that you are listening to or caring about how blackface impacts others.

I think it's genuinely true that the people making some or possibly all of the shows that are being discussed here did not understand or take seriously the degree of pain and offense attached to blackface, and felt comfortable subverting the prohibition rather than being respectful of it without pushback. It wasn't done out of a desire to cause hurt, but it was hurtful because it was done to minimize the feelings of those who are hurt by it, and to re-center the issue on the feelings of the people who've been asked not to do it.

It's not that they WANTED to cause pain (I hope), but that they didn't take seriously that it would, and felt comfortable ignoring how it would likely feel to others.

I'm sure all of us have been guilty of that mistake, if not with blackface then with some other issue, but I think it's great that it's being looked at again, and a greater understanding and respect is being followed by making changes.

It's sad that some otherwise good things get lost in the shuffle (like a suicide prevention message), but that's weighed against the hurt caused by NOT pulling them, and is really just all the more reason to avoid this kind of mistake in the first place, and seek advice if you're not sure-- before you film it. I'm really curious if the writers' rooms and network overseers for those shows had diverse representation on board, or how those things got past them if they did. SO MANY things get axed in edit because they're considered "controversial" and networks don't want to offend. It's interesting what widely acknowledged to be offensive things DO get to air. Apparently who is potentially offended is a bigger factor than just whether someone might be offended.

And I do hope that the conversations that come out of pulling various episodes out of rotation will lead to more awareness and fewer missteps going forward.

When we read those French novels, we didn't read them because they were wonderful. We read them to understand the times, and to discuss the issues they raised. But the place for that would be a seminar, and not a randomly encountered episode in syndication.

 

[Bastet]

I've never seen 30 Rock, so I don't know anything about the episodes in question, but in reading Tina Fey's statement requesting they be pulled from syndication/streaming:

Quote

As we strive to do the work and do better in regards to race in America, we believe that these episodes featuring actors in race-changing makeup are best taken out of circulation.  I understand now that "intent" is not a free pass for white people to use these images. I apologize for pain they have caused. Going forward, no comedy-loving kid needs to stumble on these tropes and be stung by their ugliness. I thank NBCUniversal for honoring this request.

I appreciate the understanding that intent isn't a free pass to use such imagery.  (To steal from The West Wing, "Let's forget the fact that you're coming a little late to the party and embrace the fact that you showed up at all.")  But then I read that there are FOUR episodes to be removed.  On one series, blackface was used four times?!

It's interesting to me that Hulu pulled the Golden Girls episode in which blackface imagery is used for humor via Blanche and Rose entering the room with mud masks on their faces in the midst of a "no, really, I'm not racist, I just ..." conversation between (white) Dorothy and her son's black future in-laws, none of whom want this interracial (and older woman/younger man) marriage to happen, but has not been reported to have also pulled the "Rowdy Girls" episode of Designing Women in which (white) Suzanne thinks they should - in lip-synching to "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" in a talent contest fundraiser - wear skin-darkening makeup in order to "look the part". 

Julia and Mary Jo (white women as well) say hell no, explicitly stating that's blackface, and racist, and Anthony (the sole black employee [I can't remember in what context in this point in the series, as he started as a delivery driver and wound up a partner] says he's tried to explain this to her, but she has a point - this isn't like Al Jolson's painted face with a big white circle around the mouth, it's theatrical make-up like Eddie Murphy used when he played a white guy on SNL and Laurence Olivier used when he played Othello.  Julia calls the local (Atlanta) chapter of the NAACP to confirm no, they should not do this.

So, yay, message clear - it doesn't need to BE the racist imagery of old, it EVOKES it, and that's still racist and a no-go.  Except, wait, they give the lone black guy the "well, she's not entirely wrong" dialogue, and when Suzanne shows up in the make-up anyway (Charlene forgot to call her to tell her it was definitely a no-go), they're appalled and embarrassed, but she still makes her way on stage despite the seriously, dumbass, it's racist reiteration and that's played for laughs.

I don't have Hulu, so has that DW episode been pulled and it just hasn't been reported yet?  If it hasn't, I wonder if it's just because they haven't been made aware yet?  Or if it was evaluated and intentionally left because of the context, where there's a real discussion about the history of blackface and its continued status, no matter the intent, as racist? 

If the latter, was it a weighted evaluation where that's more important than the fact the episode ends with a completely unrealistic scenario in which it happens anyway (in reality, Julia would have locked Suzanne in a closet if she had to in order to keep her from appearing in public like that, sullying the firm's name) and it's funny?  Or did they just gloss over that (and the fact the black dude was the one given the "well, it's complicated" lines)? 

I hear blackface on modern-day TV mentioned, and that problematic DW episode is what immediately springs to mind.  So I'm curious about its fate.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

It's interesting to me that Hulu pulled the Golden Girls episode in which blackface imagery is used for humor via Blanche and Rose entering the room with mud masks on their faces in the midst of a "no, really, I'm not racist, I just ..." conversation between (white) Dorothy and her son's black future in-laws, none of whom want this interracial (and older woman/younger man) marriage to happen, but has not been reported to have also pulled the "Rowdy Girls" episode of Designing Women in which (white) Suzanne thinks they should - in lip-synching to "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" in a talent contest fundraiser - wear skin-darkening makeup in order to "look the part". 

According to Deadline it was Disney that made the decision to pull that episode of Golden Girls. They own both the Golden Girls and Hulu.

Designing Women is on Hulu through a deal with Sony. Sony also owns Community which agreed to remove blackface episodes so that episode of Designing Women may have been removed and it just hasn’t been reported. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Guest

[biakbiak]

The episode of Designing Women is still on Hulu. I don’t believe any of the shows that have been removed have been reported by anyone but that it was the creators/studios who made the decision to have them pulled.

Edited June 29, 2020 by biakbiak

[Hiyo]

Quote

It's interesting to me that Hulu pulled the Golden Girls episode in which blackface imagery is used for humor via Blanche and Rose entering the room with mud masks on their faces in the midst of a "no, really, I'm not racist, I just ..." conversation between (white) Dorothy and her son's black future in-laws, none of whom want this interracial (and older woman/younger man) marriage to happen

I personally don't see this as an example of blackface...but mileage varies.

[possibilities]

I never saw the GG episode, so I don't have a personal opinion about it, but I have seen some Black activists on twitter also saying that episode was not blackface or offensive.

Some examples:

Also, this should probably be noted:

https://twitter.com/ashleyn1cole/status/1277261519470751744

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by possibilities

[Guest]

10 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Wendell tagged the wrong account forSeth. So Don Cheadle has also applied. It’s probably the most attention the show has gotten in years.

That's kind of a shame. I only started watching the show a few months ago when I randomly stumbled on it on a Comedy Central marathon and I have to say, it is one of the funniest shows I've ever seen. And David Lynch is in it! Since then, I've been binging episodes here and there on Hulu -- trying to space them out since there's a finite number of them. 

I've never seen Family Guy (where Cleveland wound up appearing again in after cancellation) but would look forward to watching episodes voiced by Don Cheadle or Wendell Pierce. 

[Mabinogia]

I agree that the "blackface" moment in GG wasn't really blackface as Rose and Blanche weren't trying to be black, weren't acting "black" (quoted because there is no one way to act black), weren't trying to insult anyone. 

I have a much bigger issue with the DW episode, and I did when it first aired too. A huge part of that is because Suzanne was painted as a kind of modern day Scarlett O'Hara, the quintessential southern bell, so having a character who invokes the slave owning south in blackface was extremely uncomfortable to watch. 

I feel like all these white CEOs and owners are pulling everything they can as quickly as they can without really looking into the context much, which is just putting a bandage on the issue, but is better than doing nothing. Get it all off the shelves ASAP then take time to discuss, review and perhaps put some of it back, or not. I like what HBO did in pulling Gone with the Wind, getting a professor to put together a discussion piece about the very wrong portrayal of blacks in that movie, and then put it back. Burying these things isn't right in the long run but getting out there and discussing why they are wrong and why they happened in the first place. If we just bury them we are more likely to repeat them. 

[Danny Franks]

So Zach and Donald just released a special episode of their podcast, with Bill Lawrence and Sarah Chalke, to address the issue of blackface in Scrubs.

Bill Lawrence said he personally requested the episodes be taken down, but that he'll probably re-edit them to remove those scenes, when he has access to a studio.

I'll go with their assessment that, no matter the joke, using bits that reference the systemic  racism and oppression behind blackface is just better avoided, regardless of the intentions behind it.

Zach said, regarding the scene where he's in blackface at a party, that he wasn't comfortable with it, and wishes he'd talked to Bill and said he didn't want to do it.

They also talk about the false double standard of, 'well, Donald was made up to look like a white guy, so that's racist too!' crowd. With that, I like Reni Eddo-Lodge's definition of racism as "prejudice plus power" to explain why it's not the same thing.

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I'll go with their assessment that, no matter the joke, using bits that reference the systemic  racism and oppression behind blackface is just better avoided, regardless of the intentions behind it.

Zach said, regarding the scene where he's in blackface at a party, that he wasn't comfortable with it, and wishes he'd talked to Bill and said he didn't want to do it.

They also talk about the false double standard of, 'well, Donald was made up to look like a white guy, so that's racist too!' crowd. With that, I like Reni Eddo-Lodge's definition of racism as "prejudice plus power" to explain why it's not the same thing.

Last year I ended up listening to two different podcasts that went into pretty deep discussions about minstrel shows. It was fucked up and awful and I was surprised to find out that it was one of the most popular forms of entertainment in the US for something close to a century. It is hard to process that for decades one of the most popular forms of entertainment was going to see a white guy on stage painted black doing stupid stereotypes of African Americans.

Which makes me kind of think that even if the intent of a scene is genuinely good, it is still basically a call back to that which kind of makes it bad by default.

And since as far as I know there were no popular minstrel shows where black people pretended to be white it is not the same thing. I actually learned that at some point black entertainers had to actually put on blackface make up since that was one of the few ways to be successful as an entertainer.

[Irlandesa]

Interesting discussion.  I'm wondering if they'll eventually move towards putting up a warning for episodes where the black face moment can't easily be removed or if they will be unavailable forever.  Especially in the episodes where it's called out as a bad thing. 

Has anything been said about the Mad Men episode in which Roger sings My Old Kentucky Home in blackface? Or are dramas getting a pass because they're dramas?

[Neurochick]

11 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Has anything been said about the Mad Men episode in which Roger sings My Old Kentucky Home in blackface? Or are dramas getting a pass because they're dramas?

That is a good point.  I think that episode was to show just how ignorant people were to think that was okay.  It made Roger look stupid IMO.

BTW, in the very first episode of Mad Men, the "guys" tricked a homeless Chinese family to live in the office of a guy who was on his honeymoon.  When he came back, they kicked them out, and treated the whole thing like it was a joke.  I think that scene was to show exactly who and what these guys were. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Interesting discussion.  I'm wondering if they'll eventually move towards putting up a warning for episodes where the black face moment can't easily be removed or if they will be unavailable forever.  Especially in the episodes where it's called out as a bad thing. 

Has anything been said about the Mad Men episode in which Roger sings My Old Kentucky Home in blackface? Or are dramas getting a pass because they're dramas?

I will preface this by saying I am a white woman, but I can't see the next streaming service to get Mad Men cutting that scene out.  The show is period, and has moments like Roger in blackface where the characters act period correct.  I think context matters in this issue.  This is a show where almost all of the main male characters sexually assault or rape women.  Roger being an ass and wearing blackface is the least of his sins. 

I also want to say that not all of the other characters present Don in particular are into Roger's performance.  This is one of the many moments throughout the series where Roger is an ass who does downright awful things.  

 

[Irlandesa]

I agree with many of the points being made but I think similar arguments could be made by comedies which is why I'm curious about the question even though I don't have answers.

[callie lee 29]

13 hours ago, xaxat said:

BET came out on fire for their awards show.

I think this is fantastic. However,  this song is thirty years old. It's depressing that it is still applicable today.

(And they are still dunking on Bobby McFerrin.)

I'm going to have to watch this when I get home. I don't think this little phone screen will do it the justice it deserves. 

[DearEvette]

44 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Has anything been said about the Mad Men episode in which Roger sings My Old Kentucky Home in blackface? Or are dramas getting a pass because they're dramas?

I hope they won't.  Mainly because Mad Men had so many more intrinsic low key (and high key) racist moments that getting rid of that one would be just theater.  It is exactly why activists are calling this chain of removing these things easy erasure and performative.  It doesn't get at the root of what they really want to change in Hollywood, which is simple equity and opportunity behind and before the cameras.

Also, iirc, that episode of Mad Med furthered my opinion that Pete was actually one of the most decent people on the show.  He was probably the only one that was visibly disgusted at Roger's display.  This was after episodes in previous seasons that show Pete trying to get the firm to actively advertise to black consumers, rightly pointing out that black people were an under-realized market with a lot of buying potential. Only for Don to witheringly shut him down.  Don really was an asshole all around.  LOL.