Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Raja]

1 hour ago, BaggythePanther said:

I wrote about the new Bewitched reboot in another thread, but it also seemed appropriate to put the series description in this thread: 

Talking about shooting yourself in the foot. I think Elizabeth Montgomery reached up from the grave to quash this one.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BaggythePanther said:

I wrote about the new Bewitched reboot in another thread, but it also seemed appropriate to put the series description in this thread: 

Quote

In Bewitched, written by [Kenya] Barris and [Yamara] Taylor, Samantha, a hardworking black single mom who happens to be a witch, marries Darren, a white mortal who happens to be a bit of a slacker. They struggle to navigate their differences as she discovers that even when a black girl is literally magic, she’s still not as powerful as a decently tall white man with a full head of hair in America.

Um - I know this is just the pitch, but this sounds like it a could be a potential disaster, or iffy at best. I mean, I don't think the mediocre white man being favored over the exceptional black woman is the "comedy" I want to watch.

[Fukui San]

        Given the creators, I'd probably give it at least a chance or two.

[topanga]

32 minutes ago, Fukui San said:

        Given the creators, I'd probably give it at least a chance or two.

Ha! And I'm the exact opposite. I don't like the way Kenya Barris creates black female characters. 

But I'd still watch it just to see what it's like. 

[DearEvette]

I wonder if Barris would have any hand in it at all beyond a creator and possibly pilot writer credit given him leaving ABC for Netflix.

It sounds interesting.  It has the potential to be really good or eye-rolling bad depending on the casting and the scripts.  Honestly in the original Bewitched, I found Darrin insufferable even without being a slacker and wondered what Samantha saw in him.  She was way too good for him.  I was always team Endora!

[kassygreene]

Mad Men taught me a lot about why Darren Stevens, Larry Tate, and all the rest were such jerks.  Unless you were a WASP male (and I think we can agree that Samantha wasn't a WASP anything), the sixties sucked.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Re the Bewitched reboot, it could have been worse. Imagine an I Dream of Jeannie reboot with a Black woman playing Barbara Eden's role. Jeannie called Tony "Master." Even if Tony were cast with a Black actor that would never fly now.

[Jaded]

Posting this here too since it applies...

I'm still pissed that show-runners of the rebooted Charmed are trying to "explore more culturally" by giving each sister a different father. 

[Dee]

Christine Ko To Play Lead, Kunjue Li Boards Netflix Feature ‘Tigertail’

Quote

Hawaii Five-O actress Christine Ko will be playing the lead in the Netflix feature film Tigertail with Kunjue Li also joining the cast. John Cho and Tzi Ma, previously announced, also star.

Tigertail is inspired by writer-director Alan Yang’s family, a drama that touches on themes of regret, longing, passion, and repression while spanning continents and generations, from 1950’s Taiwan to present-day New York City. The protagonist Grover ventures to the states with a women he doesn’t connect with. Ko will plays their daughter Angela.

Li will play young Zhenzhen, a woman in Taiwan who was always quiet, polite, and out of the way. She finds moving to America with Grover a difficult experience, until she meets her friend Peijing and begins to consider her own independence and self-worth.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Dee

[praeceptrix]

After reading the comments in several threads about the proposed "Bewitched" reboot, I have decided that I would prefer it if they didn't go down the Black/White mixed marriage route. Why not make both Samantha and Darrin black? If they want more culture clash than magical/muggle, make them from different parts of the country (she's from New Orleans, he's from Newark) or different parts of the world (she's American, he's British or Nigerian or South African...).

If they want even more culture clash, make him anything BUT white. There are so many different cultures in the world, why must we only see white American people (I am white, by the way)? He could be Asian, Asian American, Canadian First Nations, Inuit, Arab, Pacific Islander, Native American, South American... heck, he could even be white, but not American!

It would be nice to see more variety on my screen. Just my two cents.

[Raja]

The pitch given for Bewitched just makes my skin crawl. Exceptional black woman marries loser white boy. Okay why exactly does she do that?

[festivus]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

The pitch given for Bewitched just makes my skin crawl. Exceptional black woman marries loser white boy. Okay why exactly does she do that?

That's the same problem I had with the original. Why would this awesome woman marry a guy that doesn't want her to be herself. I realize the old one was in a different time when that kind of thing was really going on but I can't see how that's gonna work any better today. I won't be watching.

[DearEvette]

15 hours ago, praeceptrix said:

If they want even more culture clash, make him anything BUT white. There are so many different cultures in the world, why must we only see white American people (I am white, by the way)? He could be Asian, Asian American, Canadian First Nations, Inuit, Arab, Pacific Islander, Native American, South American... heck, he could even be white, but not American!

It sounds like, based on the pitch, he has to be white for the underlying story conceit to work.  Samantha is supposed to be a single mother, hard worker who is a witch.  He is supposed to be a 'bit of a slacker.'   The conceit is, that Samantha can be a witch with actual superpowers but because Darren is a white male, his voice gets automatically heard and valued more no matter how supernaturally powerful she may be.  This couldn't work if Darren is anything but a white male.  And they are archly playing with the concept of 'black girl magic'  (literally! as they admit) so Samantha is gonna be black.  Depending on how smartly it it written, this could be an interesting observational comedy with some ironic bite.

[Sparger Springs]

10 hours ago, Raja said:

The pitch given for Bewitched just makes my skin crawl. Exceptional black woman marries loser white boy. Okay why exactly does she do that?

Cause he is white. that makes him special. Duh.

10 hours ago, Raja said:

The pitch given for Bewitched just makes my skin crawl. Exceptional black woman marries loser white boy. Okay why exactly does she do that?

How much do you want to bet the kids dad is a black loser. 

[possibilities]

Barris has no credibility with me on anything woman-related.  I can only hope he's somehow had a revelation and is doing this show to make amends (Chuck Lorre says "Mom" is his apology for "2 1/2 Men") but I think they have a very steep climb to explain why Samantha is with a slacker dude. And her being a single mom is strike 2. I get that the commentary possible from "supernaturally powerful Black woman gets treated with less awe than loser white guy" is potentially something smart, but making him her husband wasn't necessary to mine that scenario. He could be her coworker or a neighbor or anyone she deals with on a regular basis, without her having the bad judgment to marry him.

[Sparger Springs]

I will bet 10 cyber dollars the actress will be biracial.  The kids from the ex husband who will be black will be played by biracial actors except maybe one extra sassy and nasty black girl.

[MissAlmond]

Quote

It sounds like, based on the pitch, he has to be white for the underlying story conceit to work.  Samantha is supposed to be a single mother, hard worker who is a witch.  He is supposed to be a 'bit of a slacker.'   The conceit is, that Samantha can be a witch with actual superpowers but because Darren is a white male, his voice gets automatically heard and valued more no matter how supernaturally powerful she may be. 

I still don't get how this premise will work since Samantha has the power to turn anyone who disrespected her into a toad if she wanted to be heard.  We all know Endora certainly would have.

Edited August 27, 2018 by MissAlmond

[Ceindreadh]

11 minutes ago, MissAlmond said:

I still don't get how this premise will work since Samantha has the power to turn anyone who disrespected her into a toad if she wanted to be heard.  We all know Endora certainly would have.

 

That’s not really going to help her in the job market if everybody she lists as a previous employer can only say “ribbit ribbit”

 

But on a more serious note, turning people into toads because they disrespect you, that’s assault. Even if there’s not an actual statute on the books - and I’m sure there could be a few old ones kicking around - it’s no better than punching somebody in the face, no matter how much of an arsehole they’re being. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by Ceindreadh
To add an afterthought

[Miss Dee]

I don't see how this reboot is going to fly if the white husband is going to be so unlikeable. Why would I want to watch an endlessly patient single mother with extraordinary abilities get ignored and passed over in favour of a lazy white dude? And how do you expect me to buy this special woman would even give that guy the time of day, much less marry him? They'd have to cast The World's Most Charming White Dude (whoever he is) to make that fly, and even then I think it'd be too unpleasant to watch.

If the "slacker" part was dropped and the two were presented as a united front, trying to navigate their way through the world's unappreciation of her gifts and overappreciation of his white maleness, with the husband doing his best to be an ally even as he learns to recognize and check his privilege on the way, then I'd probably be interested. As it is, unless this is going to be a particularly loaded-for-bear satire (which wouldn't interest me anyway), I don't see at all how this is going to work.

[MissAlmond]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

That’s not really going to help her in the job market if everybody she lists as a previous employer can only say “ribbit ribbit”

 

But on a more serious note, turning people into toads because they disrespect you, that’s assault. Even if there’s not an actual statute on the books - and I’m sure there could be a few old ones kicking around - it’s no better than punching somebody in the face, no matter how much of an arsehole they’re being. 

Um, in the first Bewitched witches/warlocks were forever doing not nice things to mortals for showing them disrespect.   In one episode a friend of Darin's from Salem had to ride through town on a horse dressed as Paul Revere proclaiming "Witches are good, witches are dear" to have a family curse removed.  Endora once told Darin he was lucky she didn't turn him into a toad. Maurice obviated Darin when they first met.  Samantha once put up an invisible shield so Darin couldn't touch her when she was angry with him and she wasn't nice to Shelia at that dinner party either.  And Tabitha was already following in Grandmama's footsteps in preschool (little Tabitha  had no problems knowing how to deal with annoying classmates).  So what I'm asking is how is this premise going to work when witches/warlocks are so powerful they have the means to deal with any disrespect thrown their way.  

Edited August 27, 2018 by MissAlmond

[jhlipton]

Ine way they could make the new Bewitched better is by making Darren accepting and supportive of Sam's magic.

11 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

I will bet 10 cyber dollars the actress will be biracial.  The kids from the ex husband who will be black will be played by biracial actors except maybe one extra sassy and nasty black girl.

Sadly, this is the truth.

The comments here are probably going to be better than the show itself.

Edited August 27, 2018 by jhlipton

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

The comments here are probably going to be better than the show itself.

Yeah, I am finding the discussion fascinating.  What I am curious to wonder about... a lot of people who are feeling negative toward the pitch cite the categorization of Darren being a 'slacker' as a counterpoint to Samantha's powers and why would she be attracted to this guy.  But so far we've been told nothing about the dynamics of what the marriage is supposed to be or the nature of their relationship, just one facet of their personalities.

The original Darren was a duly employed Ad Man but he was rather an asshole to Samantha.  Would this Darren being super supportive and treating Samantha like a queen and being clearly besotted even though he's a slacker still be a deal breaker?  Does the drive and ambition of the male carry more weight as an acceptable partner than the respect and love he gives her on the regular? 

[Sparger Springs]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Yeah, I am finding the discussion fascinating.  What I am curious to wonder about... a lot of people who are feeling negative toward the pitch cite the categorization of Darren being a 'slacker' as a counterpoint to Samantha's powers and why would she be attracted to this guy.  But so far we've been told nothing about the dynamics of what the marriage is supposed to be or the nature of their relationship, just one facet of their personalities.

The original Darren was a duly employed Ad Man but he was rather an asshole to Samantha.  Would this Darren being super supportive and treating Samantha like a queen and being clearly besotted even though he's a slacker still be a deal breaker?  Does the drive and ambition of the male carry more weight as an acceptable partner than the respect and love he gives her on the regular? 

Love doesn't pay the bills and since the show isn't on we have no idea if he loves and respects her. Dre on Blackish sucks as a husband and father. 

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Sparger Springs said:

Love doesn't pay the bills and since the show isn't on we have no idea if he loves and respects her. Dre on Blackish sucks as a husband and father. 

Truth.  But again "bit of a slacker" doesn't mean much either.  While Barris is better than Perry, that's a low bar to cross, and the main relationships on both black-ish and grown-ish are both problematic.  I'll watch, and I know my wife will probably enjoy it (it's funny because while she's black and 'm white, I generally have more problems with relationships like Dre and Bow -- and don't get me started on Ruby -- than she does.)

[biakbiak]

46 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

While Barris is better than Perry, that's a low bar to cross

For what it’s worth this seems like a situation where Barris as the more senior person is partnering with someone not is experienced in this case Yamara Taylor who will actually more in control of the day to day and writing, like Greg Daniels to Mike Schur on Parks and later Mike to Dan Goor on Brooklyn 99. Greg was involved with Parks and even wrote episodes but it was really Mike’s show and then later he was involved and wrote eps of B99 but it was more Dan’s show.

[possibilities]

To me, slacker implies dead weight unmotivated slob. I don't think being shitty like original Darren is better, but once you call someone a slacker, all I see is someone who never grew up, not a partner or a peer to anyone but another slacker.

If the show means something else, great.

[selkie]

15 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I don't see how this reboot is going to fly if the white husband is going to be so unlikeable. Why would I want to watch an endlessly patient single mother with extraordinary abilities get ignored and passed over in favour of a lazy white dude? And how do you expect me to buy this special woman would even give that guy the time of day, much less marry him?

I can think of any number of relationships in real life that leave me puzzled because the dynamic on the surface is that she's way too good for him. And yet some of those relationships end up long term and stable beyond what anyone expected. Maybe she's got self esteem issues; maybe he's really good in bed and cooks something amazing in the kitchen when he peels himself off the couch. I just don't know.  If you've got people good at writing relationships (which unfortunately this reboot does not give me confidence in that regard) it can be a really interesting thing to explore.

[Miss Dee]

I see your point, @selkie. I do think they're shooting themselves in the foot by disclosing such a dynamic right out of the gate, though. Like @possibilities pointed out, people are likely to draw an obvious conclusion from that and decide they're not interested.

If they'd gone with a tagline like, "She has magic powers; he has major privileges - how do they make it work?" then it would be much more intriguing. We the audience could then determine from the show that he's a bit of a slacker but makes up for it in other ways.

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

If they'd gone with a tagline like, "She has magic powers; he has major privileges - how do they make it work?"

Your tagline is so much better than theirs....

[Anna Yolei]

On 8/10/2018 at 6:53 AM, Roaster said:

I was looking at the top-rated shows from the 1974-75 season in the US (per Wikipedia)

1. All in the Family

2. Sanford and Son

3. Chico and the Man

4. The Jeffersons

5. MASH

6. Rhoda

7. Good Times

Three of the seven had black lead characters. One lead on Chico and the Man was Chicano (the actor was not Mexican but had a Puerto Rican mother.) All seven shows were comedies.

That was over 40 years ago. There were fewer entertainment options then. If you run the numbers, it’s safe to say the large majority of people watching these shows were white.

The same list for the 2016-17 season shows The Big Bang Theory number 1 with a rating of 11.5. That rating would not have put it in the top 30 shows in the 70s. The highest rated shows get small audiences compared to decades past. (As an aside, only one of the top 25 shows in 2016-17 was a comedy.)

One thing that I wonder about it how people brag about how much more enlightened we are today and that we have more diversity on TV. Maybe a little, but we also have more audience fragmentation. Shows like Empire (ranked 23 in 2016-17), Blackish (59), Fresh Off the Boat (95) may have non-white casts, but non-white casts are nothing new and if the audience is so fragmented the impact on viewers of any show isn’t what it used to be.

One good thing may be in the make-up of ensemble cast shows. NCIS and Gray’s Anatomy have a more diverse cast that similar shows may have had in the past. (Hawaii Five-O was multi-ethnic in both incarnations.)

What do you think?

I think more than just having more minority cast, it's worth noting the variety of such topics that the shows are about. From what I can tell of the 1970s shows, a lot of them really leaned in on depicting the realism of black struggles, but very little escapism. The 80s brought us Cosby that swung to the other side of that pendulum where racial inequality and such were rarely touched upon.

And then the 90s happened and we got even MORE black comedies, but I'm honestly drawing a huge blank on if there were many all black or even black-led dramas on TV. I think "Soul Food" got a TV series for a minute on HBO but there was nothing even close to the scale of popularity as Scandal or Empire.

But now, there's a huge mixed of black catered dramas and comedies and they provide a more rounded arrangement of personalities. Black nerds like Urkel and Carlton were seen as these mythical unicorns, but now? Not so much. I know Blackish has the one son who is socially aware of things and s bit nerdy but it's not played as a joke like it could've been. 

[Trini]

11 minutes ago, Anna Yolei said:

And then the 90s happened and we got even MORE black comedies, but I'm honestly drawing a huge blank on if there were many all black or even black-led dramas on TV.

New York Undercover is the only one I can think of that comes close.

ETA: also Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Trini

[Dee]

New York Undercover wasn't Black led.

One of the three primary characters was Black, but it was essentially a diverse show.

[jhlipton]

4 minutes ago, Dee said:

New York Undercover wasn't Black led.

One of the three primary characters was Black, but it was essentially a diverse show.

Same with DS9.  One major black actor, one Sudanese, most of the others were white.  Minor roles were played by a Chinese-American a Black woman and a Black teenage boy.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Dee said:

New York Undercover wasn't Black led.

One of the three primary characters was Black, but it was essentially a diverse show.

I would say two, one being a Black Latina. After Michael DeLorenzo was killed off in the soft reboot to add white characters the white female boss  was replaced by a black male.  While not a 90% Black cast like other Black led shows of that era I would definitely call it a Black led show.

[Dee]

I was going by the original cast.

Nina was supporting until Eddie was killed off IMO.

While one could make the case that Malcolm's addition tips the scales percentage-wise, he, like Nina previously, was supporting IMO.

[DearEvette]

Heh.  Fox sure thought it was a black show.  They paired it with Martin and Living Single as direct counter-programming for Friends/Seinfeld.   I also remember Malik Yoba  and Lauren Velez being given all the face time in marketing that was heavily geared toward the black audience.

But yeah, hard to think of any other black led dramas in the 90s outside of Soul Food.  HBO had one little two-episode mini-series of a black family drama called Laurel Avenue.  I thought it was a nice little show and felt bad it never got expanded out.  It would have filled a niche.

Edited August 29, 2018 by DearEvette

[Joe]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Same with DS9.  One major black actor, one Sudanese, most of the others were white.  Minor roles were played by a Chinese-American a Black woman and a Black teenage boy.

I would argue that Jake was far more important than Keiko or Kasidy. He was in more episodes than either put together, and was even a lead in some. He was a secondary character, not minor.

[Dee]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

But yeah, hard to think of any other black led dramas in the 90s outside of Soul Food.

Soul Food (the series) isn't a 90's drama.

It ran from 2000-2004, on basic cable.

[Dee]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Heh.  Fox sure thought it was a black show. 

Did Fox view it as a Black show or an 'urban' show'? Context & Connotation are very crucial, even when the ideas themselves aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[Trini]

11 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Same with DS9.  One major black actor, one Sudanese, most of the others were white.  Minor roles were played by a Chinese-American a Black woman and a Black teenage boy.

The Captain is always the lead with the Star Trek series. Only the most recent, Discovery, decided to do something different. I say DS9 definitely counts as a Black-led show. (A show with a Black lead, right?)

Edited August 29, 2018 by Trini

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Joe said:

I would argue that Jake was far more important than Keiko or Kasidy. He was in more episodes than either put together, and was even a lead in some. He was a secondary character, not minor.

I was lumping all the non-regulars together.  Jake was definitely more important than Kasidy ("Sorry, Mom!").  I seem to recall Keiko being referred to (doing things in Offscreen-Ville) more than Jake, but I could be mistaken. 

21 minutes ago, Trini said:

The Captain is always the lead with the Star Trek series. Only the most recent, Discovery, decided to do something different. I say DS9 definitely counts as a Black-led show. (A show with a Black lead, right?)

I was confusing "Black-led" with "Black majority", hence my confusion.  DS9 was definitely a Black-led show.

Would the folks here consider Brooklyn 99 a "black-led" show?  Captain Holt leads the squad, which would fit the definition, I think.

[biakbiak]

19 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

the folks here consider Brooklyn 99 a "black-led" show?  Captain Holt leads the squad, which would fit the definition, I think

I wouldn’t, while his character is the leader of the squad it’s clearly an ensemble led by Andy Samberg. That also shows itself when they submit for awards shows. Andy submits as lead the rest as supporting. 

[Raja]

32 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I was lumping all the non-regulars together.  Jake was definitely more important than Kasidy ("Sorry, Mom!").  I seem to recall Keiko being referred to (doing things in Offscreen-Ville) more than Jake, but I could be mistaken. 

I was confusing "Black-led" with "Black majority", hence my confusion.  DS9 was definitely a Black-led show.

Would the folks here consider Brooklyn 99 a "black-led" show?  Captain Holt leads the squad, which would fit the definition, I think.

No by "lead" it is the credits, the star. Not a unit commander of the show's fictional unit. At times a reoccurring character like Urkel or the Fonz moves up and is the lead no matter what the contracts and credits say.

[tennisgurl]

I dont remember a lot of black led dramas in the 90s ( I would count DS9, as Sisko was definitely the main character), but I do remember a lot of sitcoms and shows made for kids and teens. I grew up on Sister/Sister, Smart Guy, Hangin With Mr. Cooper, The Fresh Prince, Moesha, shows like that. Granted, I was a kid at the time, so that was just what I naturally watched, but maybe there was a stronger black presence in sitcoms at the time? 

[Raja]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont remember a lot of black led dramas in the 90s ( I would count DS9, as Sisko was definitely the main character), but I do remember a lot of sitcoms and shows made for kids and teens. I grew up on Sister/Sister, Smart Guy, Hangin With Mr. Cooper, The Fresh Prince, Moesha, shows like that. Granted, I was a kid at the time, so that was just what I naturally watched, but maybe there was a stronger black presence in sitcoms at the time? 

Of course the society was about 15 years away from seeing black males as the romantic lead in commercials and entertainment. The tweener focused shows were first where no sex was expected between the kids. As that generation came of age we started seeing interracial couples in advertising as companies tried to position themselves as young and hip compared to their stodgy competition 

[Ceindreadh]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont remember a lot of black led dramas in the 90s ( I would count DS9, as Sisko was definitely the main character), but I do remember a lot of sitcoms and shows made for kids and teens. I grew up on Sister/Sister, Smart Guy, Hangin With Mr. Cooper, The Fresh Prince, Moesha, shows like that. Granted, I was a kid at the time, so that was just what I naturally watched, but maybe there was a stronger black presence in sitcoms at the time? 

Homicide: Life on the street

It's been nearly 20 years since I watched it, but wasn’t Pembleton AKA Andrea Braugher the lead?

[Raja]

34 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Homicide: Life on the street

It's been nearly 20 years since I watched it, but wasn’t Pembleton AKA Andrea Braugher the lead?

It was an ensemble cast show. The storylines and Braughner's Pembleton just caught the audience more than the other detectives / actors 

[Dee]

Empire was the first Black Drama on 'mainstream television' (The Big Five) to score multiple seasons.

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Would the folks here consider Brooklyn 99 a "black-led" show?  Captain Holt leads the squad, which would fit the definition, I think.

I love B99 but it was marketed with Jake (played by Andy Samberg) as the lead, and Jake has been in the A plot of every episode, where Holt is not.

[MissyPoo]

City of Angels was right at the end of the 90s (2000). A medical drama.