Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Neurochick]

An interesting take on Black actresses in Hollywood.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Neurochick

[ribboninthesky1]

Yeah, I remember talking about that on TWOP, though it was crickets, heh.  I think TV does a slightly better job of casting non-biracial women, presumably because there's more content available.  Of course, black female leads are trendy at the moment, primarily because of Scandal's success. I don't see it lasting, though I'll enjoy it while I can.

 

I think it's an uncomfortable topic for Americans because those with one black parent (sometimes grandparent) AND didn't "look" white have historically been considered black. But really, it's not a new phenomenon - it's just more noticeable now and thanks to social media, there is a raised consciousness of it. But to be honest, I'm not sure Angela Bassett or Vanessa Bell Calloway would have done that well during the pinnacle of Diahann Carroll's career, either.  The former had the benefit of good timing - the 80s and 90s were a time when black women in movies and TV were considerably more prevalent.   

 

Anybody watching Rogue with Thandie Newton? I was thinking of requesting a forum.

 

I like Newton, but I couldn't get into the show.  Never hurts to ask for it, though.

Edited June 27, 2014 by ribboninthesky1

[Raja]

Yeah, I remember talking about that on TWOP, though it was crickets, heh.  I think TV does a slightly better job of casting non-biracial women, presumably because there's more content available.  Of course, black female leads are trendy at the moment, primarily because of Scandal's success. I don't see it lasting, though I'll enjoy it while I can.

 

I think it's an uncomfortable topic for Americans because those with one black parent (sometimes grandparent) AND didn't "look" white have historically been considered black. But really, it's not a new phenomenon - it's just more noticeable now and thanks to social media, there is a raised consciousness of it. But to be honest, I'm not sure Angela Bassett or Vanessa Bell Calloway would have done that well during the pinnacle of Diahann Carroll's career, either.  The former had the benefit of good timing - the 80s and 90s were a time when black women in movies and TV were considerably more prevalent.   

 

 

To be fair you are understating the case. Anyone with a known ancestor of any African heritage was considered Black. If the visual evidence did not match the known background they were accused of passing. I believe Louisiana had it coded in state law about the percentage of known Black ancestors but in the nation as a whole the "single drop rule" ruled. Because a light skinned Vonetta McGee or known multiracial Minnie Ripperton was seen just as Black as Pam Grier or Aretha Franklin as did folks no good to claim a multicultural status it did not fly for the majority and put them on the wrong side of an increasingly militant Black population., "Black" folk claimed being Black like President Obama does today there was a different sort of drama involved in light skinned Black actresses receiving  a majority of black roles. Still it was is "black  beautiful" but different in emphasis.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Raja

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm well familiar with the one drop rule, but now there is a parsing of black racial identity that didn't exist on a broader scale 30,40, 50, or 100 years ago, so the "militancy" is being flipped.  Increasingly, those who are biracial or otherwise mixed heritage are publicly recognizing both/all sides of their ancestry, and you have also blacks seeking to become more precise in who is black (short version: two black parents).  That's at the root of the linked article, and indicates a changing landscape in Black American viewership.  Yes, for years, Halle Berry was considered just Black; today, probably not.  It's a changing paradigm for black women, who are increasingly uncomfortable with the fact that black female characters are often, if not commonly, portrayed by biracial actresses, and the insidious nature of what that means for black womanhood, or more precisely, black beauty.  It's a struggle that's been fought for a long time, and it often seems like TV has regressed.  Folks aren't blind, and are speaking up about it.

 

To me, the conflict becomes when you have biracial actresses who (rightfully) want to acknowledge all of their ancestry, but then go for roles and get cast as the "woman of color" character or often the black character, if the character's parentage is any indication.  The TV landscape is still stuck on the one drop rule, though I think the tide is slowly turning in acknowledging that there is such a thing as biracial parents on TV.

[Neurochick]

And then of course, there's the issue of Black people who have two Black parents and look biracial. 

 

 

Yes, for years, Halle Berry was considered just Black; today, probably not.  It's a changing paradigm for black women, who are increasingly uncomfortable with the fact that black female characters are often, if not commonly, portrayed by biracial actresses, and the insidious nature of what that means for black womanhood, or more precisely, black beauty.

 

And the whole issue there has more to do with, what is beautiful, what is feminine and who gets to make that decision.

[Bella]

I follow this topic as a white woman with some distant black ancestry and a Native American great-grandmother. I also do some work for a non-profit that promotes diversity and is active in the income inequity issues.

 

And then of course, there's the issue of Black people who have two Black parents and look biracial. 

 

 

This happens. For about 10 years, my favorite next door neighbors were an African American couple, and this came up for them. They neither one are aware of any white ancestry, and are both on the darker end of the skin-tone spectrum. Baby #1 matched that. Baby #2 was white. He had his father's features, and he wasn't considered medically albino, but he appeared to be completely lacking in melanin. I talked with his mom about it one day and she was in tears. She said that everyone would think she was his nanny or that she had had an affair. The little boy now has what many people would consider "a light tan" as his natural skin color, but that didn't happen until he was around 2. 

 

Tying this back to TV, I think the point about "who decides what is beautiful" is part of the problem. And TV writers as a group seem to have one foot planted firmly in the 1950s. Which have been over for a while now, thank you very much. 

[ribboninthesky1]

And then of course, there's the issue of Black people who have two Black parents and look biracial. 

 

That's certainly true in regular life, but how often is that the case with black actresses? The only TV actress I can think of who was thought to look biracial, but had two black parents was Vanessa Williams.  But even then, I believe she discovered that she had a higher than usual portion of European genetic ancestry.  So while she's not the product of a white and black parent, her (relatively recent) family heritage is clearly mixed. I think she discovered one of her great-grandfathers was a biracial man who married a white woman, which would have made her grandfather 75% white.  From what I understand, most black Americans supposedly have 70-80 percent sub-Saharan African ancestry.  Certain phenotypes are a result of recessive-like genes, such as blue eyes (which Williams has), so while it happens, I'm not convinced it's that common.  If you look mixed, it's probably because you have fairly recent mixed ancestry. Nothing wrong with that, but I think that's why there's a call for precision on what being phenotypically black means, at least in the US, and how that plays out in black female representation in Hollywood. 

 

Not to say that Black Americans don't or can't have complex ancestry, but certainly what's currently represented as black women on TV is skewed toward biracial or heavily mixed features.

[Neurochick]

 

Certain phenotypes are a result of recessive-like genes, such as blue eyes (which Williams has), so while it happens, I'm not convinced it's that common.  If you look mixed, it's probably because you have fairly recent mixed ancestry. Nothing wrong with that, but I think that's why there's a call for precision on what being phenotypically black means, at least in the US, and how that plays out in black female representation in Hollywood.

 

Not to say that Black Americans don't or can't have complex ancestry, but certainly what's currently represented as black women on TV is skewed toward biracial or heavily mixed features.

 

So how many generations do you go back to consider someone "biracial?"   When you start going back to someone's great-grandparents and then say, "they're mixed" if you find a white person, I think that's reaching.  Besides, how many Black people in the US are 100% Black? 

 

The real issue is that there aren't enough roles for Black actresses.  If there were then no one would care if many of them were played by "mixed" people.  As I said before, the issue is more about who is considered beautiful, who is considered feminine and who makes that decision.  There is a huge piece of sexism in all this as well, since it's women who are affected more so than men. 

[Bella]

 

So how many generations do you go back to consider someone "biracial?"   When you start going back to someone's great-grandparents and then say, "they're mixed" if you find a white person, I think that's reaching.  Besides, how many Black people in the US are 100% Black?

 

Exactly. With a Crow Indian great-grandmother and a Black great-great-great-grandmother, my family tree indicates that I am not 100% Caucasian. But I identify as white: I look white and was raised on the assumption that I (and my entire family) was white. However, if a person who identifies as Black but has some white ancestry is biracial, then I would be, too, because it can't go in just one direction. I find this entirely too close to the whole "one-drop" notion.

 

 

 

The real issue is that there aren't enough roles for Black actresses.  If there were then no one would care if many of them were played by "mixed" people.  As I said before, the issue is more about who is considered beautiful, who is considered feminine and who makes that decision.

 

Again, I agree. It used to be that a Black woman who was considered beautiful had a thin nose, thin lips, and otherwise typical Caucasian features, only with darker skin. It's not so extreme anymore, but the standard for beauty hasn't moved that much, either. (The only reason I consider Halle Berry to be Black is that she considers herself Black.)

[ribboninthesky1]

So how many generations do you go back to consider someone "biracial?"   When you start going back to someone's great-grandparents and then say, "they're mixed" if you find a white person, I think that's reaching.  Besides, how many Black people in the US are 100% Black? 

 

The real issue is that there aren't enough roles for Black actresses.  If there were then no one would care if many of them were played by "mixed" people.  As I said before, the issue is more about who is considered beautiful, who is considered feminine and who makes that decision.  There is a huge piece of sexism in all this as well, since it's women who are affected more so than men. 

 

But I've already acknowledged that American blacks are typically considered to have 70 to 80 percent African ancestry.  I've never stated that American blacks were 100% black.  I also never called Vanessa Williams biracial.  But Vanessa has also gone on record in saying that her mother has some Turkish or Persian ancestry. To presume like her mixed ancestry is typical of the average Black American woman is a mistake, IMO.

 

All I'm saying is that there is increasing discussion on what being phenotypically black means, and how that can and will impact black female viewership.  It's certainly a controversial discussion, because it could exclude people who were previously considered black before.  It's painful, but it's not like other groups (particularly whites in the US) have never been precise in who is included in their phenotypical group.  Hell, that's what the one drop rule was all about - defining whiteness.  There's already been pushback and accusations of bigotry/racism in the discussions I've read. 

 

The real issue is that there aren't enough roles for Black actresses.  If there were then no one would care if many of them were played by "mixed" people.  As I said before, the issue is more about who is considered beautiful, who is considered feminine and who makes that decision.  There is a huge piece of sexism in all this as well, since it's women who are affected more so than men.

 

No doubt about the sexism in play, but I think the statement, "there aren't enough roles for black actresses" is a bit reductive, even if it's technically true.  I think it dismisses the very real and valid concern of black girls and women, who didn't hit the recent biracial/otherwise mixed genetic lottery, not seeing girls and women who look like them on TV.  For my part, I think it's a hard discussion because so many of talented and celebrated Black Americans in our past were, in modern terms, actually biracial or mixed.  I totally get why it's uncomfortable, but I also acknowledge the minimal, at times erasure of, phenotypically average black girls and women on TV, and I think affected women have the right to call it out.

 

However, if a person who identifies as Black but has some white ancestry is biracial, then I would be, too, because it can't go in just one direction. I find this entirely too close to the whole "one-drop" notion.

 

Huh? I never said any such thing. I referred to Vanessa Williams' mixed racial heritage, but I explicitly acknowledged she wasn't biracial when I stated she's not the product of a black parent and white parent.  I don't consider having mixed ancestry and being biracial the same thing, and never equated the two.

[Neurochick]

 

No doubt about the sexism in play, but I think the statement, "there aren't enough roles for black actresses" is a bit reductive, even if it's technically true.  I think it dismisses the very real and valid concern of black girls and women, who didn't hit the recent biracial/otherwise mixed genetic lottery, not seeing girls and women who look like them on TV.  For my part, I think it's a hard discussion because so many of talented and celebrated Black Americans in our past were, in modern terms, actually biracial or mixed.  I totally get why it's uncomfortable, but I also acknowledge the minimal, at times erasure of, phenotypically average black girls and women on TV, and I think affected women have the right to call it out.

 

I guess I should have said, "There should be more Black actresses on TV" because hopefully there would be more diversity in colors, but that might not be the case if the people making the decisions as to what actress gets what role have their own conception of what beauty is and who is beautiful. 

[BoogieBurns]

"There should be more Black actresses on TV"

 

Absolutely. Everyone should be represented. Biracial people (or people of any color/combination) shouldn't stop getting roles either. Hollywood, and whatever we call the TV industry, need to make room for both. There isn't a clear line to draw, so let's not. 

 

The question is, how we get more black actresses on TV? 

[Iamsweetdee]

Funny or Die video, not sure if you've seen "a wonderfully nasty bit of satire."

 

http://www.avclub.com/article/black-women-run-hollywood-according-new-funny-or-d-205886

[BoogieBurns]

Funny or Die video

 

Retta and Nicole Byer both posted it on twitter last week. Thanks for sharing it here :-)

[possibilities]

On "@ midnight" recently, the three guest comedian panelists were all guys from the same show, "Sullivan and Son", which I had never heard of (it airs on TBS). They were reasonably amusing and the Asian guy seemed to be the show's lead-- the other two, after offending him, jokingly asked if they still had jobs. So I decided to check the show out, naively having had my hopes raised. When, in an ensemble about a mixed race group of friends, is the POC the lead and not the token sidekick?

 

It turns out to be a throwback (formula-wise) extremely traditional sitcom with a VERY LOUD laughtrack, all the scenes are shot on the same one room set, and the punchlines are delivered by everyone in the same cadence that makes it sound even more scripted than these things usually do.

 

The first episode I saw, which I think was the pilot, featured Ken Jeong as a very stuck up doctor who went around literally saying how superior he was to everyone else, discovering that his wife had never had an orgasm in their marriage (though she had had them previously with other lovers). This problem was discussed loudly by everyone in the bar (the show is set in the bar owned by the Asian Mon, White Dad, and Asian Son of the title). Various characters both male and female weighed on on whether the wife should fake it so he'd feel better, and whether the husband should take advice from the ex-boyfriend (also a bar regular-- and white) who was an expert in pleasing the ladies due to his mother (also a bar regular) having made sure he knew how, since she's the resident over-50 slut. Eventually Jeong's character gives his wife (who is the sister of the son who co-owns the bar) a minivan, which she has been asking for all episode, and then an orgasm in the vehicle, which the entire bar population overhears. The two of them return to the bar, with the wife having major sex hair and can hardly stand up so relaxed and satisfied is she.

 

Another episode featured a story about whether Korean hot sauce made by the mom who owns the bar is hotter than the hot sauce a patron from the South (who is also African American) makes. The two of them have a contest, which is basically a draw, because both of them are unwilling to back down and they would rather die of perforated stomachs than admit defeat.

 

There is an old white guy who makes racist comments and everyone basically tolerates him and treats him like one of the gang. He surprises them all by signing a petition for marriage equality, though, because he says you want gays in your neighborhood because they are quiet and maintain their property except on Tony Award night. Then he says he thinks Black people are homophobic, so the Resident Black Guy flirts with him hard to prove otherwise.

 

They also did an episode where a widow comes in to say her husband died, and since he loved the bar so much and spent all his time there, and she knows they were like family to him, she wants to hold the memorial there. No one has any idea who this guy is, but instead of telling her so, they fake sympathy and recognition, mostly because she's wealthy and throwing her money around quite generously. When it turns out the guy had a mistress and always told his wife he was at the bar when he was with his mistress instead (and he was never at the bar so that's why they didn't know him there), and this information comes out, the widow bonds with the mistress and thanks her for giving her husband so many years of joy since the wife was not interested in having sex with him anyway, and the two of them go on a trip together.

 

You really don't know what to expect here, even though the formula is so heavy-handed that it feels predictable as hell.

 

I don't know if I can make myself keep watching, because the mix of extreme throwback stereotyping and presentation alongside the occasional shock moment is just not working.

 

But the show does have Asian leads in a mixed race setting, for what that's worth. I am really not sure how highly to value that, when the show itself is kind of horrible.

Edited July 3, 2014 by possibilities

[Wax Lion]

I wanted Sullivan & Son to be a lot better. I mostly like Steve Bryne's comedy, especially when he talks about his biraicial heritage but that doesn't translate into the show.

[Princess Sparkle]

I started watching Chicago Fire last season but I think I'm done with the show when it comes back.

 

I enjoy Chicago Fire (Chicago PD, not so much), but you know the casting that bugs me the most?  That Jon Seda and Monica Raymond are supposed to be brother and sister.  Now, I know they probably wanted to cast Jon Seda, because of name recognition and later decided that the connection to Chicago Fire would be to have him as Dawson's brother, but they should've found a different way - they do not look related whatsoever, and a Puerto Rican man and a half-Dominican woman should not have to be related on a show just because they're both of Hispanic decent.  

Edited July 7, 2014 by Princess Sparkle

[arc]

The AV Club just ran a Roundtable feature on My Brother And Me, a Nick sitcom notable for having a primarily black cast.

 

My Brother And Me is a garden-variety family sitcom from that era, but it certainly didn’t feel that way then, as it was the first Nickelodeon sitcom to feature a predominantly black cast.

 

Remember when there were black families on channels not primarily aimed at black families? [...] The original Parkers were the first black family to move into Nickelodeon. Now, near as I can tell, the last show with a black cast on Nick was Just Jordan which ended six years ago. Cosmetic or not, that matters.

 

So while there’s value to the “other people are just like me” idea My Brother trades in, that has to be supplanted by “other people actually aren’t just like me, but that’s okay too.” Without the second phase, the audience is left with the insidious message that there’s a direct relationship between another person’s humanity and their similarity to you, which is obviously a dangerous idea. [...]

And given the hyper-fragmentation of the medium, television shows need unique perspectives to survive. That’s why there’s no room for a My Brother anymore, but there is room for ABC’s forthcoming Black-ish, for example, which boasts a premise designed to mine material from difference rather than similarity.

[lucindabelle]

That show sounds appalling... I know it's a comedy but comedy works when it has some relationship to humanity. I cannot imagine a woman being happy to know she was deceived for years. Maybe one day she might realize the mistress made her husband happy but the immediate reaction would surely be devastation. That just sounds like bad, bad writing.

Why is it that sitcoms with ethnic minority center pieces are often such throwbacks? Is it because the casting was risky that they get all frozen with fear in the writing? I'm at a loss. Here was one a few years ago that was appalling, a comedy about a White married to a Mexican woman, it was so stereotyped it felt like it should be a bad show from the 70s. I'm sure this guys stand up act was funny but it just did not translate into the show. Just looked it up, it was Rob!

I think the exclamation point signifies badness.
 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I enjoy Chicago Fire (Chicago PD, not so much), but you know the casting that bugs me the most?  That Jon Seda and Monica Raymond are supposed to be brother and sister.  Now, I know they probably wanted to cast Jon Seda, because of name recognition and later decided that the connection to Chicago Fire would be to have him as Dawson's brother, but they should've found a different way - they do not look related whatsoever, and a Puerto Rican man and a half-Dominican woman should not have to be related on a show just because they're both of Hispanic decent.  

I'm going to admit to a bit of ignorance, because I don't watch Chicago Fire. I looked up pictures of both Seda and Raymund because I wasn't familiar with her, and while I can't post them here because I can't get the image extension to work, whatever that means, I did compare the two.

 

Perhaps I'm seeing something you don't, and you're free to correct my impression if I am, but I think they look very similar to one another. Not like twins or anything, but speaking as someone who looks nothing like *my* sister it wouldn't automatically occur to me that the characters couldn't possibly be related if I watched the show. Geographically speaking, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are only two hundred and thirty-six miles apart, and unless Wikipedia is full of it, which is entirely possible, Dominicans regularly try to emigrate there, sometimes with disastrous results that make the news. Why do you think they look so different that the familial relationship is unbelievable? I'm genuinely curious.

[Princess Sparkle]

 

I'm going to admit to a bit of ignorance, because I don't watch Chicago Fire. I looked up pictures of both Seda and Raymund because I wasn't familiar with her, and while I can't post them here because I can't get the image extension to work, whatever that means, I did compare the two.

Perhaps I'm seeing something you don't, and you're free to correct my impression if I am, but I think they look very similar to one another. Not like twins or anything, but speaking as someone who looks nothing like *my* sister it wouldn't automatically occur to me that the characters couldn't possibly be related if I watched the show. Geographically speaking, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico are only two hundred and thirty-six miles apart, and unless Wikipedia is full of it, which is entirely possible, Dominicans regularly try to emigrate there, sometimes with disastrous results that make the news. Why do you think they look so different that the familial relationship is unbelievable? I'm genuinely curious.

 

Before answering, I'll preface this by giving a little bit of my perspective - I do genuinely like Chicago Fire (again, Chicago PD, not so much), and I give it a lot of credit for being a popular show while having one of the most racially diverse casts on tv.  And I am mixed race (Middle Eastern and Western European), so I do know that siblings vary in skin color; my own brother and I have slightly different skin tones and honestly, don't look much alike.  

 

However, Jon Seda looks like this (hopefully I can get the image to work): 

 

And Monica Raymond looks like this: 

 

That's not just a slight difference in skin tone, that's two difference ethnicities, and their skin tones are different enough that in their previous roles, Jon Seda has played roles coded as white (he's been Italian characters in Homicide, Oz and The Pacific), whereas Monica Raymond has played black characters (her character on The Good Wife).  To me, it doesn't really matter that Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are only 200 or so miles away from each other, they're two completely different countries with two different ethnicities.  It appears that the casting directors looked at "Hispanic" as a monolith race, as opposed to recognizing that many different ethnicities are encompassed within that, and they aren't all the same.  To me, as an example, it's akin to having a Chinese actor and Vietnamese actress play  brother and sister just because they're both Asian.  

Edited July 8, 2014 by Princess Sparkle

[galax-arena]

I loved My Brother and Me! "Goo Punch!" 

[arc]

That's not just a slight difference in skin tone, that's two difference ethnicities,

My mom and dad are both (Han) Chinese but I'm considerably lighter skinned than my dad... about as much diff as the Seda/Raymond pics you posted there. I know, that's parent-child, but siblings sometimes have striking differences in melanin too.

 

 

 

To me, as an example, it's akin to having a Chinese actor and Vietnamese actress play  brother and sister just because they're both Asian.

Well, first of all, I can rarely tell Chinese from Vietnamese myself and secondly there's been a lot of Chinese immigration to Vietnam over the years, such that there are lots of people who are ethnically Chinese but legally and culturally Vietnamese...

 

But more importantly, presumably in general a show would write characters as siblings first and then cast them, rather than cast them and then decide "hey, we've got two POC actors, let's make them related"... right?

 

(addendum: the casting situation for Asian actors in American shows is dire enough that I would be loathe to criticize casting any East Asian ethnicity actor for a role that's East Asian ethnicity...)

Edited July 8, 2014 by arc

[Bella]

Facially, Seda and Raymond look nothing alike. OTOH, I don't think Hollywood casts any siblings very well regardless of race, so it's in keeping with the pattern.

[Princess Sparkle]

Well, first of all, I can rarely tell Chinese from Vietnamese myself and secondly there's been a lot of Chinese immigration to Vietnam over the years, such that there are lots of people who are ethnically Chinese but legally and culturally Vietnamese...

But more importantly, presumably in general a show would write characters as siblings first and then cast them, rather than cast them and then decide "hey, we've got two POC actors, let's make them related"... right?

(addendum: the casting situation for Asian actors in American shows is dire enough that I would be loathe to criticize casting any East Asian ethnicity actor for a role that's East Asian ethnicity...)

Point taken on the first part; bad example on my part.

With regards to the second point, normally I think a show would do that, but in Chicago Fire's case, Monica Raymond was cast first, then when Chicago PD was set to be a spin-off, they created her brother as a way to connect the two shows through a character, and then Jon Seda was cast. (ETA: Whoops -was totally wrong on this point)And to your point, I'm assuming it was a case of "Get a name actor to cast for the other show" and Jon Seda was it, as opposed to "Wait, two Hispanic actors? Let's make them related!", but for whatever reason, it just annoys me.

Facially, Seda and Raymond look nothing alike. OTOH, I don't think Hollywood casts any siblings very well regardless of race, so it's in keeping with the pattern.

Heh - and that's entirely true as well. Edited July 8, 2014 by Princess Sparkle

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

To me, as an example, it's akin to having a Chinese actor and Vietnamese actress play  brother and sister just because they're both Asian.

As @arc says, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell, at first glance, the difference between a Chinese person and a Vietnamese person. Also, I would think that the decision to make two characters related comes before the casting, not after, because that would seem a bit odd.

 

As for casting as a whole, as another example, Vin Diesel and Jordana Brewster play brother and sister in the Fast and Furious series (which IMO counts as TV because they run the movies sometimes on TNT). Diesel is a light-skinned black man, and the Panama-born Brewster is darker than he is. They were playing Italians, and when Diesel first started appearing in movies many people, including myself, thought he *was* Italian. Should that casting also not have happened because they don't look much alike?

[Princess Sparkle]

As for casting as a whole, as another example, Vin Diesel and Jordana Brewster play brother and sister in the Fast and Furious series (which IMO counts as TV because they run the movies sometimes on TNT). Diesel is a light-skinned black man, and the Panama-born Brewster is darker than he is. They were playing Italians, and when Diesel first started appearing in movies many people, including myself, thought he *was* Italian. Should that casting also not have happened because they don't look much alike?

I haven't seen the Fast and the Furious since it first came out, so quite honestly, I don't have an opinion on it. And I'm sure we could throw out dozens of examples of two people playing siblings that aren't the same ethnicity, and I'm not going to debate or give an opinion on every one, because I haven't seen them all. I was just saying that in this specific instance, on a show I watch, it's something that bothers me.

[ApathyMonger]

With regards to the second point, normally I think a show would do that, but in Chicago Fire's case, Monica Raymond was cast first, then when Chicago PD was set to be a spin-off, they created her brother as a way to connect the two shows through a character, and then Jon Seda was cast.

 

Seda first appeared in the third episode of Chicago Fire, long before they considered giving his character a spin-off. If the spin-off had been the plan from the start, they wouldn't have made Jason Beghe's character a complete villain in CF, which had to be completely toned down for him to be one of the stars of Chicago PD.

[Princess Sparkle]

Oh man, he was in the third episode? Absolutely did not remember that; thanks for the correction(genuinely - sometimes tone doesn't come across in my posts : )

Edited July 8, 2014 by Princess Sparkle

[galax-arena]

which IMO counts as TV because they run the movies sometimes on TNT

I think that's opening up a big can of worms because they show a bazillion movies on TV all the time. Almost all movies make the trek to television eventually, so if that's the rubric we're gonna use, then the distinction between movies and television becomes almost meaningless. /semantics

 

That said, Vin Diesel is not black, or at least he doesn't identify as one, although he does identify as POC; IIRC he's said that his ethnicity is ambiguous because he doesn't know who his father is. I think the popular consensus on Vin Diesel, i.e. how he codes to the audience, is that he's "ambiguously brown", which allows him to play across the spectrum. So he can pass as white, but put him in a POC role and people aren't going to go, "What's this white boy doing here?" 

Edited July 9, 2014 by galax-arena

[Cobalt Stargazer]

All right then, fair enough. I was just throwing that out there because it seemed like a similar situation. I guess my real point was, genetics are a crapshoot, and not all family members look alike.Maybe I need to actually watch Chicago Fire so I can see the actors in person, so to speak.

[ApathyMonger]

Out of interest, what are people's thoughts on Alfred Molina playing a Mexican in El Rey's new show Matador? Molina's father is Spanish and his mother's Italian. It feels weird to hear him do the accent though.

 

[topanga]

RE: variations of "black" actresses on TV:

 

I think it dismisses the very real and valid concern of black girls and women, who didn't hit the recent biracial/otherwise mixed genetic lottery, not seeing girls and women who look like them on TV...I totally get why it's uncomfortable, but I also acknowledge the minimal, at times erasure of, phenotypically average black girls and women on TV, and I think affected women have the right to call it out.

 

 

Great point, ribboninthesky1. (Oh, hi. Didn't realize that was you).  My concern with the overwhelming casting of bi-racial actresses on TV is the not-so-subtle message that in order for a black girl or woman to be considered pretty, feminine, likable, etc., she either has to have 1) light-skin 2) loosely curled or straight hair or 3) thin nose, thin lips, or something other than regular brown eyes. I didn't include long hair because that's become a trend for women of all races in the entertainment industry. And that's why many black women celebrate the presence of Kerry Washington on Scandal and Keke Palmer on the short-lived True Jackson, V.P. And even news stories with Michelle Obama.

 

 

Out of interest, what are people's thoughts on Alfred Molina playing a Mexican in El Rey's new show Matador? Molina's father is Spanish and his mother's Italian. It feels weird to hear him do the accent though.

 

I haven't seen it, ApathyMonger, but I'll check it out.

 

ETA: The clip looks very interesting. Don't know if I have El Rey on DirecTV. Alfred Molina has one of those "ethnically fluid" looks, ala Lou Diamond Phillips, Andy Garcia, Vin Diesel, and Monica Raymund.

Edited July 10, 2014 by topanga

[Raja]

Out of interest, what are people's thoughts on Alfred Molina playing a Mexican in El Rey's new show Matador? Molina's father is Spanish and his mother's Italian. It feels weird to hear him do the accent though.

I remember there were comments about his Spanish not matching the biography of his East Los Angeles street kid who grew up to br a homicide detective and Deputy DA character on Law & Order Los Angeles Edited July 10, 2014 by Raja

[ApathyMonger]

Relevant to this thread, Sony have cast a black lead (Susan Heyward) in their series Powers, for a character who's white in the original comics. http://www.deadline.com/2014/07/powers-susan-heyward-cast-as-deena-pilgrim-max-fowler-adam-godley-sony-playstation/

 

She was played by Lucy Punch in the failed FX pilot.

[Rick Kitchen]

Although the preview for "Black-ish" looks like it might be funny, I do gag at the line where Anthony Anderson tells Tracee Ellis Ross that she can't have opinions about being black because she's only "mixed".

[BoogieBurns]

Rick Kitchen, can you link to the clip you watched? 

[Rick Kitchen]

@BoogieBurns here's a longer version of the clip I was complaining about, but it contains the part I was objecting to.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqqjDv6_dU

[topanga]

I think it's trying to show the Anthony Anderson character's obsession with being black. He's like a modern-day Archie Bunker, I suppose. I don't know if it'll work, but I'll watch it. I like Anthony Anderson and Tracee Ross.

 

The oldest son Andre (Andy) is really funny.

 

 

 

An interesting take on Black actresses in Hollywood.

 

I agree with the author's point that biracial and lighter skinned black women are showing up on TV and in movies more than medium or dark-brown women, especially in roles that don't involve slavery or domestic service. But I disagree with the implication that a biracial woman with one black parent is not "black enough." Who's standing there holding the black measuring stick? I hope Zendaya didn't get that message when people reacted to her being cast in the Aaliyah movie. I hear she has since pulled out. 

Edited July 18, 2014 by topanga

[Wax Lion]

I'm not sure I see the problem there with Black-ish. Sure, the opinion is wrong but from the look at the trailer the show is about a struggle with cultural identity. While on a journey like that, you're bound to have points where you're just being stupid before you learn you're being stupid.

 

As a PoC who isn't black, I think this is a wait and see thing. How does the whole show portray that comment? If Anderson's character turns out to be an African-American version of the guys in all those schubby husband-hot wife sitcoms of the aughts (where, in the end, the asinine things he says are okay because he does something sweet) then it's a big problem, but if he gets called out on it, is shown learning his family are entitled to have their individual views, that could be a great show.

[tvallthetime]

Thanks for sharing the trailer for Blackish. It looks like it could be funny and it's certainly relatable to me. I laughed at the African rites of passage scene, my parents tried to do something similar with me and my siblings when we moved to a predominately white neighborhood and school.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

So I watched the trailer, and speaking as someone who liked Anthony Anderson on the Mothership of L & O, I'll probably give Blackish a shot. I'm kind of annoyed that he tells his wife she can't have an opinion because she's mixed, because in real life the attitude that if you're not enough of X Thing, your views matter less aggravates me. It just seems like another thing to set people apart from one another, something to make us different. I guess I'll have to wait and see how it's handled.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[possibilities]

I think it's hard to know for sure before the show airs at least a full episode (I've been deceived by a lot of promos, and have come to distrust them across the board), but I am optimistic about Black-ish because of Larry Wilmore's involvement. I don't think he's likely to have been involved in something stupid.

[BoogieBurns]

I'm actually just happy this show is single-camera format. That's all it takes for me to give a new show a shot.

[xaxat]

I must admit that I was kind of surprised to see promos for Stalker featuring Maggie Q with top billing over Dylan McDermott. But good for her!

Edited July 26, 2014 by xaxat

[MrMattyMatt]

The Disney Channel seems to do a good job with ethnic and racial diversity in their "Tween" shows.  I sometimes tune into them when there is nothing else to watch.

 

I have noticed however is that whenever they include a character who's ancestry is from India, they have an extremely thick accent.  I have a few friends that are Indian and I have found that their teenage children speak with perfect american accents.  It just seems they are reaching with the stereotype in that respect.

[AimingforYoko]

I have a few friends that are Indian and I have found that their teenage children speak with perfect american accents.

And most of their parents speak with English accents.

[arc]

Eric Liu on the reappropriation of ethnic slurs, with a slight tie-in to the upcoming FOB show:

 

So Huang now reclaims “FOB” to make light of the way it has been used. That nuance may be lost on some who will watch the sitcom. But this is how race talk evolves. And as Ta-Nehisi Coates has written perceptively about [“n----r,”]* the fact that some people will miss the nuance of how a community reclaims a word about itself is no justification for barring the community from using the word.

* it's not censored in Liu's post, but I dunno, I felt uncomfortable quoting it.

[xaxat]

The Disney Channel seems to do a good job with ethnic and racial diversity in their "Tween" shows.  I sometimes tune into them when there is nothing else to watch.

 

Isn't their target demographic majority minority? If not, it's really close.

[Ankai]

The Disney Channel seems to do a good job with ethnic and racial diversity in their "Tween" shows.  I sometimes tune into them when there is nothing else to watch.

 

I have noticed however is that whenever they include a character who's ancestry is from India, they have an extremely thick accent.  I have a few friends that are Indian and I have found that their teenage children speak with perfect american accents.  It just seems they are reaching with the stereotype in that respect.

If Konkona Sen Sharma is at all representative of English-speaking Indians, then Indian-accented English might as well be considered just a way of speaking English, as valid as American English or South African English. Here is the trailer for the movie Amu, where she is playing an Indian-born American. No, her American accent is not perfect, but Jason Statham hasn't done any better. And I am guessing that this is her real accent. Without any other evidence to go by, I can only assume that she could do a somewhat passable American accent (or could ten years ago) if she chose to do so, but she chooses not to, because why should she do that without reason? 

 

I also found nothing about her staying in the United States for any extended time, though she could have.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ankai