Race & Ethnicity On TV

[DearEvette]

Chicago Med has just cast Marlyne Barrett as a regular.  In addition to S. Epatha Merkerson, YaYa Da Costa and Brain Tee, that would make her the 4th regular POC in the cast, three of whom are black women.  Representation does matter and to some extent it factors into what I curate to watch, especially new shows that I might have ordinarily passed on.

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm really looking forward to this, as an Octavia Butler fan, and really appreciate what Allen Bain has to say in the interview.  *Silent prayers of hope*

 

Octavia Butler's 'Dawn' Being Developed for TV, Producer Talks Adaptation and Diversity Behind the Scenes

 

Representation does matter and to some extent it factors into what I curate to watch, especially new shows that I might have ordinarily passed on.

 

Ditto!

Edited September 11, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[Ohwell]

I was thinking about all the hype about Taraji P. Henson, and previously Kerry Washington and Viola Davis as strong leading black women, and I think one actress who has been greatly overlooked is Kellita Smith.  I hadn't seen her since she was Bernie Mac's wife in the Bernie Mac Show, but she rocks as Lt. Warren in Z-Nation.  Sure, it's a silly show  (but so are Scandal and HTGAWM) but I love it and when it ends I hope to see her in other roles.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Ohwell

[Rick Kitchen]

Matt Damon is being criticized for explaining racial diversity in movies to a black female filmmaker.

[ribboninthesky1]

How in the flaming hell did Damon see this footage and think to himself, "Yep, it's all good. Approved! Roll it!" I cannot fathom the amount of hubris.  As I mentioned in the movie thread, this is hitting home because I've been dealing with similar fuckery at work.  The bullshit - it's so tiring.   

[selkie]

The Xenogenesis series was my favorite Butler, and I'm kind of surprised to see that's what gets a development deal. It never seemed to get the critical love many of her other books did, and there's some stuff in them that might seem a little too weird to a mass market audience.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'm hoping this belongs here, since it relates to a news story.

 

 

...Okay? That's not relevant here. We're talking about an issue of racially profiling a Muslim for bringing a handmade clock to school. If Ahmed had been a white kid named Taylor or David, this most likely wouldn't have happened. (One of the police officers - who had never met Ahmed before - stated, "That's who I thought it'd be," when he saw him.) What happened to Natalie was something else entirely. "Texans acted shitty towards Natalie Maines in this completely different situation" does not negate the idea that Texas (along with other states) has an issue with profiling Muslims. Unless something else happened with her that I'm not aware of. 

 

I was mostly being facetious with the Natalie Maines comment, but I can be serious just as easily.

 

Being white, shouldn't Maines have been protected to some extent from a bunch of Texas yahoos dropping a proverbial deuce on her because she criticized Bush the Elder? If race as much as religion trumps all, since you yourself, possibly not facetiously, said Ahmed was arrested "for being smart while brown", then why exactly should a white country singer draw fire, even verbal fire, for saying she was ashamed to be even tangentially associated with another white person? My only point was that Texans have already proven themselves to be fairly unreasonable, and while this particular instance goes farther than the one in question, it isn't as if they took a mighty leap to get there. They took a few steps, and there it was. I certainly don't think that someone has to be arrested in order to be treated in a way they don't deserve.

 

As for Ahmed himself, personally I think its asinine that anyone would mistake a clock for a bomb, and that these supposedly grown people would put a kid through that on a false supposition is awful. And you raise an interesting point about the hypothetical Taylor and David, since after all the Columbine shooters were white. Maybe we do need more profiling of white suburban kids, even though most teenagers profile like sociopaths, which is why legally you can't diagnose them until they're at least eighteen. But with double standards all being equal, it could actually do some good.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Just a reminder, this forum is not the place to discuss news stories, unless they directly relate to television or celebrities. There are more than enough places on the internet where you can have this discussion.

[Ohwell]

Thank you, The Crazed Spruce.

[BoogieBurns]

Wrong Thread!

Edited September 18, 2015 by BoogieBurns

[selkie]

So I dug out Octavia Butler's "Dawn" for a quick reread, and was both amused and horrified to discover that the Lillith on the cover of my old paperback copy looked rather like Gwen from Torchwood. Apparently the publishers though no one would buy a hard SF book in the 1980s if there was a black female protagonist on the cover.

 

I

[Wax Lion]

As I recall, the copy of Dawn I had didn show Lilith as a white woman. Thankfully, the Patternmaster books, which were from the same design scheme as those Dawn books, had black people on the covers.

[DearEvette]

So I dug out Octavia Butler's "Dawn" for a quick reread, and was both amused and horrified to discover that the Lillith on the cover of my old paperback copy looked rather like Gwen from Torchwood. Apparently the publishers though no one would buy a hard SF book in the 1980s if there was a black female protagonist on the cover.

 

I

 

Sadly not limited to the 60s.  Whitewashed covers on books are still  a pretty big issue.  One of the more recent wide-spread flareups  was the cover of Australian YA novelist Justine Larbalestier's  book Liar (http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/07/23/aint-that-a-shame/) .  Her blog post shows the original US cover featuring a white girl with stick-straight hair, even though the character was a black girl who describes her own hair as 'nappy'.  The new cover features a girl that looks kinda like Jordin Sparks.  Only recently with the rise of self publishing, social media, calls for diversity (#weneeddiversebooks) are people really stepping up the awareness and calling these sorts of shenanigans.

 

Back on topic -- So very pleased to see they have cast Simone Missick as Misty Knight for Netflix's Luke Cage.  She actually looks like I think Misty Knight should look.  In addition to Ciara Renee as Hawgirl in CW's DC's Legends of Tomorrow,  it is finally nice not only to see more women superhero characters but WOC super heroes.  In the case of Hawkgirl -- I can't keep up with all the various iterations of the various versions of the superheroes, but I think Kendra Saunders (which is Hawkgirl's real name) might be a case of color blind casting.  Or at least there are print versions of HG that show her as white with red hair and not biracial with curly hair.

[xaxat]

Color film was built for white people. Here's what it did to dark skin. (I posted this in the TV forum, but, as the article explains, it's a problem for movies and photography as well.)

 

 

My dad was a pretty serious amateur photographer. All of our family photos until the eighties were in black in white because he didn't like the way we looked in "color".

Edited September 18, 2015 by xaxat

[galax-arena]

Viola Davis made history as the first black woman to win an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama. I don't really like How to Get Away with Murder, but I love Viola, so I'm thrilled for her. And it was nice to see fellow nominee Taraji P. Henson give her a standing ovation. 

 

Get that citation in the annals of Emmy history, Viola!

Edited September 21, 2015 by galax-arena

[Rick Kitchen]

Nancy Lee Grahn from General Hospital is under attack for criticizing Viola's acceptance speech.

[galax-arena]

When I read Nancy's initial apology, where she admitted that there are still some things she doesn't understand but that she's trying to learn and check herself, I thought, well okay, that's good! We all have to start somewhere and she's hardly the first person to have a blind spot when it comes to their own privilege. It's great that at least she's opening up her eyes, that's more than what a lot of other people do.

 

... But then she went on a massively self-pitying rant where she dismissively referred to what happened as her simply commenting "about a very rich A list actress winning a trophy" and talked about how she felt "betrayed by ppl I would've marched for." Just, shut up, Nancy.

[CoderLady]

When I read Nancy's initial apology, where she admitted that there are still some things she doesn't understand but that she's trying to learn and check herself, I thought, well okay, that's good! We all have to start somewhere and she's hardly the first person to have a blind spot when it comes to their own privilege. It's great that at least she's opening up her eyes, that's more than what a lot of other people do.

 

... But then she went on a massively self-pitying rant where she dismissively referred to what happened as her simply commenting "about a very rich A list actress winning a trophy" and talked about how she felt "betrayed by ppl I would've marched for." Just, shut up, Nancy.

 

Things like this make me sad because online apologies are far from rare now, but it's also an excellent way to determine how real an apology really is. If the person makes a clear apology then shuts up I'll believe them. But if they keep coming back and amending it, probably at the instigation of the people around them, it was shit to begin with. And you know you can't shine shit. Unless you're the Mythbusters.

[DearEvette]

Not only blind to her own privilege but a textbook case of white feminism where intersectionality does not even exist. Someone posted her earlier support of Patricia Arquette's Oscar acceptance speech about women & pay & roles in hollywood juxtaposed next to her tweet about Viola saying  that her upset about the speech is that awards don't fix racial injustice.  So it is ok for PA to use her oscar platform to address issues of gender inequality in Hollywood but not ok for Viola to do the same with racial equality?  The hypocrisy is huge.

 

The doubling down , even after the 'I am sorry to anyone I have offended' brand of apology, just reeks of hubris.  And it totally makes her apology seem insincere from the jump.

[SistaLadybug]

She was so Miss Millie with it.  "I've always been nice to the coloreds!  I've always been good to you people!"  Shut up, Alexis.  The stench of your envy follows everything you say. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

 

The comment on top is the one that laid me out.   "Brilliant as she is.  She's never been discriminated against."  I cannot even.  When you're too ignorant to know how ignorant you are {{cough}} Trump2016 {{cough}} it might be time to quit.  

 

She was so Miss Millie with it.  "I've always been nice to the coloreds!  I've always been good to you people!"  Shut up, Alexis.  The stench of your envy follows everything you say. 

 

I know this is a serious thread but I giggled!!  "your children are so clean, how would you like to come work for me?"

 

DearEvette, to answer you question, yes, it would appear that she does, in fact, want equality *4 all women* but now hold on, if we're gonna make this about race, she's gotta draw a line.  You know the one, that line Harriet Tubman sees.

[DeLurker]

I have no idea who Nancy Lee Grahn is, but she is an embarrassment to the human race.

[galax-arena]

#AllLivesMatter
#AllActressesMatter

#MileyCyrus4Prez

[DearEvette]

I have no idea who Nancy Lee Grahn is, but she is an embarrassment to the human race.

 

She is a soap opera actress who has been steadily working for something like  30 years.  And... get this... she has two Emmys!  Two!  Gah!

 

How many soap opera actresses of color have been able to work that consistently fo that long?  Forget the awards, look at ..as Viola would say.. the opportunity she's had that has been consistently denied WOC.

[Irlandesa]

RE: Nancy Lee Grahn

I'm so sick of all the PCedness. I'm particularly sick of everyone trying to censor everyone else.

Nancy Grahn has the right too say whatever the hell she wants. She also had the right to turn the channel or mute the tv if she didn't want to hear Viola Davis. Viola Davis had the right to say whatever the hell she wanted... it was HER acceptance speech.

I do think, however, that it sounds like sour grapes on NLG's part. Don't know why. Suck it up, Nancy!

Well of course Nancy Lee Grahn can say whatever she wants and she did.  But everyone else has the right to tell her she's full of bullshit.  And privilege. And I get that people think pointing out privilege and inequity is just too damn PC and that's fine.  But NLG would like to hold herself up as a progressive so she doesn't get to throw that flag.  And she gets to be called out when she says that Viola was never discriminated against even though Viola claims she has.  And she deserves to be called out for acting entitled and "betrayed" by the fact that people on Twitter, many of whom were WOC, had the audacity to call her out on her bullshit. I mean seriously...she'd fight/march for their rights but not the right to disagree with her?

 

It's probably sour grapes on her part because she has been a long time soap actress.  She's one of the lucky ones of all actors (gender/color) in that she has had a steady acting job since the 80s.  She probably considers herself unlucky in that it's all she pretty much became.  She likely thinks that because Viola has been able to do movies, TV and stage, that she was never discriminated against.  It couldn't possibly be because Viola is 100x the actress Nancy is.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Irlandesa]

No, don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about calling NLG out on her BS/hypocrisy/stupidity (yeah, she should be called out on her stupidity or whatever the hell is wrong with her thinking)... I'm talking about those calling for NLG to be fired for her comments.

On many media outlets. THAT'S what I'm sick of. Not just her; anyone (lately) who voices any sentiment.

I apologize for misunderstanding your post and I get what you're saying. 

 

Still, based on a misunderstanding or not, that post was fun to write. 

 

I do think there are some things worth firing someone over saying but I don't think what NLG says meets that standard.  However, she's on a dying genre whose budgets are getting slashed all the time and if I were her, I'd be guarding my Q rating the best I could.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Irlandesa

[Wax Lion]

How many soap opera actresses of color have been able to work that consistently fo that long?  Forget the awards, look at ..as Viola would say.. the opportunity she's had that has been consistently denied WOC.

 

Which actually makes me realize a different frustrating angle, diversity has long been a struggle on soaps and her time of prominence runs when things were getting bad for PoC. Until the 90s, the writers' voice was key and an Agnes Nixon had the power to insist on stories that dealt with issues like race but that started to fade with the Luke & Laura days. Her first Emmy came at a time when Santa Barbara was a show where the producers were more in charge than the writers.

 

And with that change the soaps became more cowardly. Sure, the powerful writers still had power but the newer writers were left with producers who would back off when an interracial couple got hate mail. For a long period the African-American characters were pretty much segregated on Y&R because the show was afraid to put them in a relationship with a white cast member.

 

With, NLG's shows it's a struggle to remember any African American characters on Santa Barbara (though there was a latino family) and I think General Hospital has three African Americans in a very large cast.

 

If she just took around her industry she'd see it isn't just "tough all around" for soap actors, there's additional hurdles for black actors in soaps.

[DeLurker]

I have to add, though, I've made my feelings about actors very clear on another forum.

And, I WILL say that Viola Davis DOES live a life of privilege (regardless of where she came from) that you (I'm guessing) and I (I know) do not, and, probably, will not, ever know. Most actors live in a different stratosphere - in a rarefied atmosphere.

Many, of all stripes, came up from nothing, and, for all their lip-service, don't live that life anymore, don't breathe that life anymore, wouldn't think of eating with the peasants (civilians) anymore. They don't care about the plebians; only those in their privileged new world- other actors.

People worth $3b are NOT doing squat (other than playing) when they donate $100k or, even $1m, for a cause.

There's a dire need for diversity in front of the camera so kids can see themselves on tv/in films, but, make no mistake, most actors are EXCRUCIATINGLY overpaid douches who make a fortune playing dress-up and make-believe for a living; spew out others' words, work a small portion of the year.

Make no mistake, even the ones you idolize, adore, fight for, wouldn't give you the time of day and would NEVER deign to socialize with you.

The dearth of women and diversity behind the camera is just as important an issue.

But being successful to the point where your standard of living is enviable does not change the uphill battle that women, and especially women of color, face in finding roles or being cast.  Add to that a mature woman instead of the youngster.

 

For every successful actor out there, there are thousands of wanna be actors that will never make it.  Some are very talented, some are very pretty, some are very delusional...but like being a professional athlete, the odds are against you.  They took a chance on pursuing a career with a high risk/low reward structure - a chance most of us would never take.

 

There are plenty of rich douches in our society - many of which do greater harm to our culture, lifestyle, environment than an actor with an over inflated sense of importance and entitlement.

 

OK...I think I've strayed from the topic at hand nor can I believe I have taken the side of actors (which would not be my normal stance of agreeing they are overpaid monkeys).  I don't follow Hollywood to such detail but I have no reason to believe that Viola Davis is a horrible person who does nothing meaningful for the various causes or groups.  It goes without saying YMMV.

[galax-arena]

Just my opinion, obviously, but, if people would put forth (and act upon) just as much effort and outrage in the fact that we've never had a female president and the fact that agism, lack of diversity and pay inequality are problems for the average worker, we'd be in a much better place.

People can do both...

 

The implication I'm getting here is that representation in the media doesn't matter as much as those other things you mention because it's ~just television. But everything is connected. Pop culture matters, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It influences (and is influenced by) society at large. The portrayal of minorities in the media can affect how we perceive said minorities IRL. It affects whether we're seen as human in our own right or if we're simply the Other. 

 

How shows like Will & Grace and Black-ish can change your brain.

 

ETA: Moving away from the NLG drama, I've been reading some interviews with Fresh Off the Boat's Constance Wu, and I like a lot of what she has to say when it comes to diversity and the media:

 

"I was talking to a friend the other day about Togetherness. I was like, 'It's a show about white people.' And he said, 'Oh, come on, they're just people.' But if somebody says my show is about Asian-American pepole, nobody bats an eye... white people are allowed to exist as just people."

 

On criticism that FOTB got for Jessica and Louis' accents: “I empathize with people who were afraid that [the accent] was stereotyping, because for those people — who are pretty much all Asian-Americans — the only time that they saw an Asian character on television in a comedy was when that Asian person was a humor tool and not a person whose accent was merely one facet of their [character]. It’s a beautiful part of the story of immigration, so I wanted to make sure that I didn’t water it down to quell the fears — the fears that are based on the shitheads who used an accent as a humor tool. I’m not going to use those shitheads’ metric to determine the worthiness of my voice. If somebody has an accent, that often means they know more than one language, and I don’t think that’s anything to be ashamed of. I actually think that’s pretty fucking cool. Hopefully, we’re writing our own history, instead of trying to be accepted by the white American framework history. Because by trying to be accepted by that framework, we’re already putting them at a higher level than us — and they’re not. They’re not at a lower level than us, it’s just a different story. So let’s start telling our stories.”

 

On typecasting for ethnic actors: "I think the problem is when producers don’t want to tell an Asian story. They still want to have their white lead actors, but they feel bad, so they want to make sure that they surround the lead actor with people of color. So often, I’ll go to an audition that’s for, like, the best friend and the only character description, aside from being best friend, is all ethnicities except Caucasian.... It could be a Latina girl, it could be a Black girl, an Asian girl, it just can’t be white because we already have our white people. In a way, it’s like their bastardized version of trying to be more diverse, without giving props to what diversity really means, which is our individual stories."

Edited September 23, 2015 by galax-arena

[ribboninthesky1]

"I was talking to a friend the other day about Togetherness. I was like, 'It's a show about white people.' And he said, 'Oh, come on, they're just people.' But if somebody says my show is about Asian-American pepole, nobody bats an eye... white people are allowed to exist as just people."

 

OMG, YES. Just...yes. I cannot emphasize the number of times I've expressed something similar, whether to myself or friends/family.  And I've felt this way about some shows with non-whites in the supporting cast.  

 

On criticism that FOTB got for Jessica and Louis' accents: “I empathize with people who were afraid that [the accent] was stereotyping, because for those people — who are pretty much all Asian-Americans — the only time that they saw an Asian character on television in a comedy was when that Asian person was a humor tool and not a person whose accent was merely one facet of their [character]. It’s a beautiful part of the story of immigration, so I wanted to make sure that I didn’t water it down to quell the fears — the fears that are based on the shitheads who used an accent as a humor tool. I’m not going to use those shitheads’ metric to determine the worthiness of my voice. If somebody has an accent, that often means they know more than one language, and I don’t think that’s anything to be ashamed of. I actually think that’s pretty fucking cool. Hopefully, we’re writing our own history, instead of trying to be accepted by the white American framework history. Because by trying to be accepted by that framework, we’re already putting them at a higher level than us — and they’re not. They’re not at a lower level than us, it’s just a different story. So let’s start telling our stories.”

  

Fantastic point about accents and speaking multiple languages.  I hope that Asian American stories do get more play in TV. Hell YEAH to the bolded.  Preach, Constance!

 

On a separate note, about that intersectionality - I noticed an interesting dichotomy in commentary about Jaime Alexander from Blindspot and Meagan Good from Minority Report. The former seems celebrated for her badassery, with some viewers expressing appreciation for her hotness. Alexander shows a lot of skin in the pilot.  Yes, the premise of the show drives some of that.  But generally speaking, there wasn't much criticism on the use of nudity. And I'm not saying there should be, but it's noteworthy.

 

Meanwhile, the comments about Good felt more critical in nature, even though she's never naked or inappropriately dressed.  Good is busty and bootylicious, and despite my watching the leaked pilot in advance of the official one, I never noticed this until I read multiple comments (and one especially crass) about it.  Even when I watched the pilot again after reading commentary, I didn't think it was noteworthy.  Good is a petite woman with visible breasts, hips, and ass - a body type not uncommon in black women and/or Latinas.  I think viewers get so used to watching (usually white) female characters with slim builds that second-skin outfits and extra skin don't register.  

 

Anyway, as a bootylicious woman myself, I know what it means to wear outfits that wouldn't draw attention on a woman with a slim frame.  That said, I also think that if white female characters are, for example, busty, they are still allowed to be so without being accused of using said assets for the sake of the show.  I mean, nothing wrong with disliking Minority Report, but Meagan's breasts have fuck all to do with perception of poor writing, plot holes, derivative storylines, etc.     

Edited September 23, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[possibilities]

I didn't even think Viola Davis's speech was that radical. She said WOC have fewer opportunities because there are fewer roles. Is anyone disputing that, really? Count them. How many roles go to whites vs POC? So the tweets complaining struck me as quite weird, especially from someone claiming to be "marching for" equality or whatever the hell. If the complaint is that we shouldn't pay so much attention to actors in general, well, an actor can't be making that argument unless she wants to limit the number of people following her twitter, or advocate a salary cut or something. People do work for equality in all parts of society, but not all parts of society get multiple hours long prime time award shows that are watched by millions of people, so those efforts are not as well-known.

 

 

 

People worth $3b are NOT doing squat (other than playing) when they donate $100k or, even $1m, for a cause.

If anyone wants to give me that kind of cash, I promise it will do a lot for my cause. In fact, every cause or organization I've worked for would LOVE to get that kind of a donation. I think it's better to give than not to give. Let the recipient refuse it if they don't want the dough. (And then, like I said, send it to me)

 

I love Constance Woo's comments! I actually have an Asian American friend who told me she turned off FotB as soon as she heard the accents. I was confused because I have heard Randall Park talk in interviews and he sounds the same as on the show, so I thought the accents were genuine, and not exaggerated or fake. I had not considered that because of the mocking that Asian speakers have received, the whole issue is tainted.

 

Last night on Late Night with Stephen Colbert, Colbert was interviewing Donald Trump about Trump's saying he would build a wall between the USA and Mexico, and would make the Mexicans pay for it. Colbert was asking how Trump would get Mexico to pay. Trump started saying he would tell them that they had been costing money and causing us problems and now were going to have to pay for the remedy. And Colbert threw up his hands and put on a high pitched and generally ridiculous BS accent and had his impersonation of a Mexican leader basically saying no, oh no and declining to pay in a cartoony nonsense manner. It really annoyed me because he could have made the same point by having the "Mexican official" speak in a calm, dignified manner, saying no. But instead he put on a cartoony voice. People are saying he did it to show how ridiculous Trump's position was, but why did he have to make the response sound ridiculous, when it was Trump who was the ridiculous one? Colbert has done this kind of thing before, where he mocks Asian or Latin American characters, thinking he's being funny. Because he's generally left in his politics, he's given a pass, but I don't like it and I really hated it this time in particular.

Edited September 23, 2015 by possibilities

[selkie]

Just my opinion, obviously, but, if people would put forth (and act upon) just as much effort and outrage in the fact that we've never had a female president and the fact that agism, lack of diversity and pay inequality are problems for the average worker, we'd be in a much better place.

Where's that activism? It used to exist.

Trickle-down theory doesn't work. Actors getting more screen time/pay will not change your life in any significant way.

 

 

The 'telenovela effect'- a few decades back, researchers noticed that birth rates in Brazilian women who had easy access to tv sets were the first to drop, even before the government was really encouraging family planning for all. And they discovered that people really do tend to use tv characters for role models of sorts fo their own lives. The typical family on a telenovela had 1-2 kids- any more than that and the kids started getting in the way of the adult plotlines- but the result was that women started to see it as normal to have a small family as it was to have the usual 5-6 kids of that time, and they were willing to embrace that normal in the real world. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if in the USA, Dennis haysbet's time on 24 helped paved the way for Barack Obama's election in the same sort of subtle ways.

 

The telenovela effect has also led public health officials to work with the media to include public health storylines in their scripted shows. And in some places, there are outright' public health soap operas' on television and radio designed to encourage healthy behaviours (HIV testing, cervical cancer screening, proper hand-washing etc.) as well as giving viewers engaging characters to become involved in. If anyone has Link TV, they sometimes also show the Kenyan version  of "The Team", which is a soccer-themed serial drama that's designed to encourage people from different tribes and ethnic groups to work better together. ("The Team" has a few different tv and radio versions in different African countries.)

[galax-arena]

The Inaccuracy of "Historical Accuracy" in Gaming and Media.

[Neurochick]

On a separate note, about that intersectionality - I noticed an interesting dichotomy in commentary about Jaime Alexander from Blindspot and Meagan Good from Minority Report. The former seems celebrated for her badassery, with some viewers expressing appreciation for her hotness. Alexander shows a lot of skin in the pilot.  Yes, the premise of the show drives some of that.  But generally speaking, there wasn't much criticism on the use of nudity. And I'm not saying there should be, but it's noteworthy.

Meanwhile, the comments about Good felt more critical in nature, even though she's never naked or inappropriately dressed.  Good is busty and bootylicious, and despite my watching the leaked pilot in advance of the official one, I never noticed this until I read multiple comments (and one especially crass) about it.  Even when I watched the pilot again after reading commentary, I didn't think it was noteworthy.  Good is a petite woman with visible breasts, hips, and ass - a body type not uncommon in black women and/or Latinas.  I think viewers get so used to watching (usually white) female characters with slim builds that second-skin outfits and extra skin don't register.

 

 

I've noticed that too.  Jamie Alexander is considered "hot" while Megan Good is "bootylicious?"  WTF, so having breasts and hips is seen as strange and exotic now?  What if I said Jamie Alexander was built like a fourteen year old boy?  

[ribboninthesky1]

Neurochick - I used the term bootylicious.  I don't recall seeing that term explicitly used for Meagan, but there were definitely comments about her appearance that struck me as critical in a way that I didn't see in relation to Jaime Alexander.   

 

I wouldn't be surprised if in the USA, Dennis haysbet's time on 24 helped paved the way for Barack Obama's election in the same sort of subtle ways.

 

The telenovela effect has also led public health officials to work with the media to include public health storylines in their scripted shows. And in some places, there are outright' public health soap operas' on television and radio designed to encourage healthy behaviours (HIV testing, cervical cancer screening, proper hand-washing etc.) as well as giving viewers engaging characters to become involved in. If anyone has Link TV, they sometimes also show the Kenyan version  of "The Team", which is a soccer-themed serial drama that's designed to encourage people from different tribes and ethnic groups to work better together. ("The Team" has a few different tv and radio versions in different African countries.)

 

I think it's easy to take for granted the ways in which TV opens up the world for people.  Having representation, and a wide range of experiences within that representation, isn't just lip service.  I see TV primarily as entertainment, but I can't deny its impact, and how people with varying levels of social sophistication perceive the world because of it.  

[galax-arena]

I was confused because I have heard Randall Park talk in interviews and he sounds the same as on the show, so I thought the accents were genuine, and not exaggerated or fake.

Randall Park started the show with a fake accent, but he quickly gave up, heh. But Constance/Jessica still has hers. As an Asian who is definitely familiar with the caricature of the Asian foreigner with the funny accent, I'm admittedly one of the people who had misgivings about the whole thing, but Constance did make some very good points. Plus I appreciate that she acknowledged the other side's concerns instead of dismissing them. 

[cynic]

As a big boobied WoC, who had actually been reprimanded by a boss for wearing the exact same outfit as less endowed coworkers, I get your concern ribboninthesky1. There's a lot to be said about policing women's bodies that don't conform to the cultural norm. However, I did think some of the costume choices on MR for Goode were to geared to show off her body. For what it's worth, I think the tattoo gimmick is used on Blindspot for the exact same reason (going by the commercials, I didn't watch the show). On the other hand, I think Abbie on SH has a nice rear (though is not as curvy on top) and I don't think she's dressed to attract the male gaze, while I do think Katrina was and that seemed blatant too.

Speaking of commenters reactions, I was struck by a few remarks over on the FtWD forum. There were a couple of characters who appeared to be of Asian-descent who were named Patrick and Susan. Some people on the board just simply could not wrap their minds around the idea that it's quite possible for Asian-looking people to be named Patrick and Susan in this country. SMH

[selkie]

Speaking of commenters reactions, I was struck by a few remarks over on the FtWD forum. There were a couple of characters who appeared to be of Asian-descent who were named Patrick and Susan. Some people on the board just simply could not wrap their minds around the idea that it's quite possible for Asian-looking people to be named Patrick and Susan in this country.

 

I live near a big military base that's also a big retirement area for veterans. And there have been a lot of military folks who find a spouse while they're stationed in Asia from just after WW2 to present.  And it's usually white or black male in uniform- Asian female in those marriages so it's not just Patrick and Susan once they have kids; it's Patrick Farmer who is half-Korean, Susan Mueller who is half-Thai, William Madjeski who is half Japanese, etc.

 

There's also a tendency for Chinese people in the USA to take or be given a more western name, something that is a little amusing because the women often get stuck with or pick rather 'old lady' names. If someone under the age of 30 is goes by Mildred or Gertrude, chances are they're Chinese.

[Rick Kitchen]

 

There's also a tendency for Chinese people in the USA to take or be given a more western name, something that is a little amusing because the women often get stuck with or pick rather 'old lady' names. If someone under the age of 30 is goes by Mildred or Gertrude, chances are they're Chinese.

 

And the first generation men get names like Winston and Henry.  :)

[ribboninthesky1]

As a big boobied WoC, who had actually been reprimanded by a boss for wearing the exact same outfit as less endowed coworkers, I get your concern ribboninthesky1. There's a lot to be said about policing women's bodies that don't conform to the cultural norm. However, I did think some of the costume choices on MR for Goode were to geared to show off her body. For what it's worth, I think the tattoo gimmick is used on Blindspot for the exact same reason (going by the commercials, I didn't watch the show). 

 

No argument there - it's standard for female characters to be impractically dressed to highlight their bodies.  I don't watch a ton of sci-fi, but from what I've seen, women wearing skin tight and otherwise impractical "uniforms" is common.  That's why I mention in the show thread that I didn't see anything that Meagan wore that was out of the norm in the genre. To me, the only reason it's noteworthy is because she's a shapely woman.  And more importantly, I didn't read any degrading comments akin to Jaime using her assets to keep Blindspot on the air.  

[cynic]

I do watch a ton of scifi and I thought the show was trying crazy hard between the outfits, the lingering on the bikini photo, and the jogging in a lowcut top and cutout leggings. It wasn't the most egregious I've ever seen, but it was blatant enough to make me roll my eyes by the end. I also think it's pretty natural that people would notice more that someone is showing something off when they have more of it to show off. Maybe that's why people aren't commenting about it as much on Blindspot. To me personally, the commercials and ads were distasteful enough to turn me off that show (there wasn't really anything appealing about it to me anyway). 

 

I do agree with what I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) is your larger point. Shapely women often are assumed to be hypersexual or get painted as having loose morals simply because of the way they developed instead of due to anything they actually did or who they are. Shapely women of color especially, get judged more harshly and are even more sexualized (and correspondingly dehumanized) than thin, white women. There's a disturbingly long history of evidence of it and its had many detrimental effects, one of which is that people may feel more comfortable being disrespectful and degrading to black women.

 

Personally, my reaction to her outfits weren't race or shape-based. I just saw it as a blatant attempt to sex up the show, much like Nikki Reed's sexy pirate version of a colonial outfit. I actually preferred the way MR treated Goode (the show acknowledging and the male protagonist obviously noticing that she's a desirable, gorgeous woman even if it's done in a sexist way), than the usual alternative of black female characters being treated as undesirable and sexless. (I'm looking at you, SH!) Baby steps. I'm just hoping for the day when black women can play both ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

Edited September 26, 2015 by cynic

[possibilities]

In the beginning, Abbie Mills was a strongly desired character. When the show started, she was breaking things off with an ex who was still in love with her, and then there was a guy who was possessed by Evil but betrayed Evil Incarnate solely to protect her because his love for her was just that powerful. Unfortunately, the show decided to kill off the men of color, and marginalize Abbie herself, so that meant both characters who loved her (a Hispanic male and an Asian male) had to go. Also, I loved it that Abbie could be desired without having to dress as though she was headed for the nightclub instead of for her job. She was the rare woman who was able to be competent, powerful, smart, self-sufficient, wear practical shoes and not do anything to specifically cater to the menfolk, and she was STILL ardently pursued. But that was before the show decided to get all stupid on us, so that promise it never came to fruition. Her sister, Jenny, is also a woman who dresses like a real person, not a Penthouse centerfold, and she has had suitors. But I agree that the show ditched its promise and it's a damn shame because at first I thought Abbie was truly the exception, that she could be a fully realized character, put herself and her career first, and still be loved. Oh well. Disappointment....

[cynic]

The Buccaneer! Ha! That's funny LinaLamont.

 

Admittedly, I might not have the best read on Abbie's look since I go to work every day in a low-cut, fitted v-neck tee (usually with a skirt, but sometimes with jeans). I have a big chest and high crewnecks make me feel strangled and  look like a battleship.

Edited September 26, 2015 by cynic

[DeLurker]

IMO, Abbie was dressed to attract as soon as they took her out of her uniform and put her in low-cut and tight tees. She looked sexy in a not overt way. But, then, Goffman hijacked the show and put his fetish forefront in a corset that SCREAMED, "Look at me, I'm sexy!". I think the original intention of taking Abbie out of her uniform WAS to show her desirability.

I think the difference is she's not an over-the-top caricature (witch/superhero/whatever) like Katrina and Betsy "The Buccaneer" Ross. I think Abbie's supposed to be a real woman. (Don't even get me started on how STUPID Betsy Ross looks... hahaha).

At least, Abbie and Jenny don't look ridiculous.

But, I get what you're saying about Abbie not being dressed as an object.

With the right writing/characterization, though, the clothes wouldn't matter.

And even after Goffman's corseted obsession took over, Abbie was still a 1,000x more attractive than her and infinitely more talented as an actress.  Jenny too.

 

The Buccaneer! Ha! That's funny LinaLamont.

 

Admittedly, I might not have the best read on Abbie's look since I go to work every day in a low-cut, fitted v-neck tee (usually with a skirt, but sometimes with jeans). I have a big chest and high crewnecks make me feel strangled and  look like a battleship.

The Buccaneer cracked me up too.

 

And being of considerably more modest proportions (svelte if you're feeling kind, but I have heard scrawny and skeletal more), I always thought you guys were just showing off your rack!  I know my roomie in college was.

[cynic]

Heh, well that is a side benefit. :D Seriously, I can't stand crew necks, but I used to love cowl and mock turtlenecks. Then I started watching What Not To Wear (US & UK) and they would point out that big chests actually are more noticeable and far less flattering when there's a huge field of unbroken fabric covering it to the neck. Also I wear my shirts fitted, because big boobs + loose shirts just make me look like an enormous blob.

I envy your modest proportions, because you can rock flowy stuff and empire waists, but those just end up looking like maternity wear on me.

Topic: I didn't watch Scream Queens, but apparently there was some criticism about Emma Robert's character's casual racism and it being played for laughs. It doesn't surprise me, because Ryan Murphy has used a lot of stereotypes in his other shows and then waved away any concerns with claims of satire.

[Neurochick]

I used to like watching Dancing with the Stars, until I noticed that black women celebrities have a MUCH harder time than black male celebrities.  It bugs me because it screams of double standard and racism.

 

One thing that bugs me this season is the presence of Kim Zolciak from Real Housewives of Atlanta.  To me, she is a perfect example of the double standard that if a white, blonde woman does something, it's fine, but God help her if a black woman were to do it as well.  On RHOA, Kim started off with a married boyfriend called Big Poppa, he gave her a home, a car, even her daughters (from two different fathers) knew about him.  Then she met, got pregnant by and married a football player, who really does look like a sweet country boy, but as dumb as a pile of rocks, and they have I think three or four children together.  My point is that if a black woman had the same history, not only would she not have a show on Bravo, but Fox news would shame her daily and she certainly wouldn't be on Dancing with the Stars.  So fuck that show.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Neurochick

[galax-arena]

Speaking of commenters reactions, I was struck by a few remarks over on the FtWD forum. There were a couple of characters who appeared to be of Asian-descent who were named Patrick and Susan. Some people on the board just simply could not wrap their minds around the idea that it's quite possible for Asian-looking people to be named Patrick and Susan in this country. SMH

The hell? Do those people know anyone who's Asian-American? Growing up, my brother, cousins, and I were the only ones who went by our Asian names. Literally everyone else we knew went western/anglo. Of course, I'm quite a bit younger than the Asian actors on FtWD, but it's still not uncommon to see among older Asians. My parents (who were immigrants in the 80s and are in their 60s now) have adopted anglo names. And it's especially hilarious when you consider that Patrick Tran's actor's name is JIM Lau.

[Ankai]

My father is 70 and grew up in Hong Kong. He has a Western name and has never used his Chinese name since coming here. Not even his childhood friends call him by his Chinese name. I don't even remember what it is. His mother, who came from the mainland, had regularly used her Western name at least since she immigrated here in the mid-80s..

[Ronin Jackson]

Quantico seems to be a genuine attempt by a major network to bring more diversity to a different type of genre. Though Mormons might not be too happy. Too bad the show isn't any good.

[Archery]

In the beginning, Abbie Mills was a strongly desired character. When the show started, she was breaking things off with an ex who was still in love with her, and then there was a guy who was possessed by Evil but betrayed Evil Incarnate solely to protect her because his love for her was just that powerful. Unfortunately, the show decided to kill off the men of color, and marginalize Abbie herself, so that meant both characters who loved her (a Hispanic male and an Asian male) had to go. Also, I loved it that Abbie could be desired without having to dress as though she was headed for the nightclub instead of for her job. She was the rare woman who was able to be competent, powerful, smart, self-sufficient, wear practical shoes and not do anything to specifically cater to the menfolk, and she was STILL ardently pursued. But that was before the show decided to get all stupid on us, so that promise it never came to fruition. Her sister, Jenny, is also a woman who dresses like a real person, not a Penthouse centerfold, and she has had suitors. But I agree that the show ditched its promise and it's a damn shame because at first I thought Abbie was truly the exception, that she could be a fully realized character, put herself and her career first, and still be loved. Oh well. Disappointment....

On the other hand, I was thrilled (still am, so far) that Abbie Mills is defined by her position and her smarts, and it's perfectly okay that she's not anybody girlfriend.