Race & Ethnicity On TV

[xaxat]

11 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

I can see that working for CBS right now - but what about in another 20-30 years?

LOL Listen to me, thinking TV networks are going to exist in 30 years....

I don't think it's a coincidence that the first two original shows on their streaming network feature women/POC as leads.

They see that distribution method as the long game. 

[possibilities]

I have mixed feelings about "Hood Adjacent" on Comedy Central, but fwiw they did a show about "Black Girl Magic" which was an attempt to give tribute to Black women. It seems like the sort of thing that needs doing, even if the show itself was not how I'd have imagined one to take that on.

[Joimiaroxeu]

3 hours ago, xaxat said:

I don't think it's a coincidence that the first two original shows on their streaming network feature women/POC as leads.

They see that distribution method as the long game. 

Or in other words, "If you want to see shows on CBS that feature women/POC as leads, we're going to make you pay for the privilege."

[jhlipton]

I'm watching Midnight, Texas -- they have a Black man and a light woman as stars of the show, and a Black woman who gets 3 lines at best.  For two weeks in a row, they had an "All Hands On Deck" crisis, but guess who was told to stay home.  Not even a glimpse of her.

Can you say "misogynoir"? I knew you could!

[Keepitmoving]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I'm watching Midnight, Texas -- they have a Black man and a light woman as stars of the show, and a Black woman who gets 3 lines at best.  For two weeks in a row, they had an "All Hands On Deck" crisis, but guess who was told to stay home.  Not even a glimpse of her.

Can you say "misogynoir"? I knew you could!

Interesting, Niecy Nash's sister is on this show, her name is Kellee Stewart. I don't watch this show, but I wonder if she is the black female character you are referring to. 

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I'm watching Midnight, Texas -- they have a Black man and a light woman as stars of the show, and a Black woman who gets 3 lines at best.  For two weeks in a row, they had an "All Hands On Deck" crisis, but guess who was told to stay home.  Not even a glimpse of her.

Can you say "misogynoir"? I knew you could!

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

Interesting, Niecy Nash's sister is on this show, her name is Kellee Stewart. I don't watch this show, but I wonder if she is the black female character you are referring to. 

 

I think Niecy's sister is the black female character that jhlipton is referring to. While, I did think it was bizarre that her character has been silent or absent. However, her character appears to be human with no supernatural powers and most of the humans have very little to do on the show. Creek is the protagonist's love interest, but all of her other interactions have been her family treating her like a toddler and being misogynistic condescending assholes to her.

I don't know if I'm ready to completely condemn the show. At least one White character (Lem) from the books is now a Black character in the TV show. I'm not sure if Fiji is a White character in the books, but she's played by an actress of color in the show. Finally, the show runner is a woman of color. This isn't a pass for the show, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach.

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Interesting, Niecy Nash's sister is on this show, her name is Kellee Stewart. I don't watch this show, but I wonder if she is the black female character you are referring to. 

Yep, that's her: According to IMDb, she's in a whole 4 episodes out of 8. Whooo!!!!

11 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

1) However, her character appears to be human with no supernatural powers and most of the humans have very little to do on the show

2) I don't know if I'm ready to completely condemn the show. At least one White character (Lem) from the books is now a Black character in the TV show. I'm not sure if Fiji is a White character in the books, but she's played by an actress of color in the show. Finally, the show runner is a woman of color. This isn't a pass for the show, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach.

1) That begs the question as to why the only Black woman i one of the few humans (and has been nothing more than a Magical Negro to Creek so far).  There are any number of supernatural creatures she could be -- African-derived like Yemoja, the Water Goddess, or American-derived.  

2) My wife likes it, so I'll watch, but I'm terribly unhappy about the way race has been depicted so far.

[HunterHunted]

56 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Yep, that's her: According to IMDb, she's in a whole 4 episodes out of 8. Whooo!!!!

1) That begs the question as to why the only Black woman i one of the few humans (and has been nothing more than a Magical Negro to Creek so far).  There are any number of supernatural creatures she could be -- African-derived like Yemoja, the Water Goddess, or American-derived.  

2) My wife likes it, so I'll watch, but I'm terribly unhappy about the way race has been depicted so far.

As to point 1, the show is based on a series of books. It took True Blood, Game of Thrones, Dexter, Gossip Girl, and many other tv shows based on books to significantly diverge from the source material. Midnight, Texas has 8 episodes to tell its story. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that it cover the plot of the books and introduce completely new mythology with increased character importance in those same 8 episodes. By your own account, you only watch because your wife does. I like the potential the show has, but I don't think it's quite there yet. I'm a Black woman. I do have similar concerns. Especially in the 2nd and 3rd episodes when the residents needed to keep people off the streets or sequestered, I wondered why they didn't call Kellee Stewart's character, Madonna, to lock the doors. However, characters like Madonna rarely get much depth or nuance regardless of their race. 

I have way more problems with Creek acquiescing to her father and brother's paternalism and misogyny especially because we know she's capable of handling herself.

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

"the show is based on a series of books."

This is ShowRunner Excuse #5 when asked WEDBWA?  (Other excuses are "We're dealing with historical characters (and there are no interesting Black female historical characters, like Harriet BAMF Tubman [*]) or, my favorite "we only cast the best" (Like Poppy Montgomery instead of Ebonee Noel or Jessica Williams).  In the vampire episode, it made sense for everyone to gather at Fiji's or the church, but why noy have a confab at the cafe during the succubus episode?  

[HunterHunted]

5 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

This is ShowRunner Excuse #5 when asked WEDBWA?  (Other excuses are "We're dealing with historical characters (and there are no interesting Black female historical characters, like Harriet BAMF Tubman [*]) or, my favorite "we only cast the best" (Like Poppy Montgomery instead of Ebonee Noel or Jessica Williams).  In the vampire episode, it made sense for everyone to gather at Fiji's or the church, but why not have a confab at the cafe during the succubus episode?  

They did gather at the cafe during the succubus episode. They were in the back room (aka the Midnighters' Room) as Manfred described the succubus to the others. They also strategized about what to do about her. Madonna was dealing with the humans in the front dining room. Creek's younger brother came in to condescend to her and demand that she stay away from Manfred because stupid 17 year old boys always know what's best for their sisters who are at least older than 21, work 2 jobs, and fight demons and monsters on the side.

It's curious that you don't have an issue with Fiji, a woman of color, not having any conflicting emotions about her unrequited feelings for Bobo, who we know came from a White supremacist background and is still upset over the death of his fiance, Audley, who came from the same background. 

[jhlipton]

24 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

They did gather at the cafe during the succubus episode. They were in the back room (aka the Midnighters' Room) as Manfred described the succubus to the others. They also strategized about what to do about her. Madonna was dealing with the humans in the front dining room. Creek's younger brother came in to condescend to her and demand that she stay away from Manfred because stupid 17 year old boys always know what's best for their sisters who are at least older than 21, work 2 jobs, and fight demons and monsters on the side.

It's curious that you don't have an issue with Fiji, a woman of color, not having any conflicting emotions about her unrequited feelings for Bobo, who we know came from a White supremacist background and is still upset over the death of his fiance, Audley, who came from the same background. 

I just saw on the Books vs Show topic for Midnight, Texas that 

Spoiler

they seem to have eliminated the rest of Madonna's family

 

As far as Bobo and Fiji, if Bobo had an ounce of character, or was acting in any way like a white supremacist, I'd have a problem with him and Fiji getting together.  But Lem doesn't mind him, so I'm willing to believe he's changed.  All the characters are paper-thin, so it's hard to get worked up too much about any of the relationships... 

[Joimiaroxeu]

The Last Ship, which just opened their fourth season, is now featuring a Black female mercenary who's from Kenya. Right off the bat they had her throwing some aggressive attitude at two of the African American sailors. They also had her flirting with the resident Israeli special forces-type guy who then proceeded to act momentarily smug about it toward the male AA sailor. (All of these people are single but not necessarily heterosexual.) It was an odd moment and I'm curious to see where they might go with this Black African vs. Black American hostility that was hinted at. 

[jhlipton]

That does sound interesting.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

The Last Ship, which just opened their fourth season, is now featuring a Black female mercenary who's from Kenya. Right off the bat they had her throwing some aggressive attitude at two of the African American sailors. They also had her flirting with the resident Israeli special forces-type guy who then proceeded to act momentarily smug about it toward the male AA sailor. (All of these people are single but not necessarily heterosexual.) It was an odd moment and I'm curious to see where they might go with this Black African vs. Black American hostility that was hinted at. 

I haven't caught up but do you mean the Australian special forces guy? The Israeli woman who was his fighting partner upon joining the Nathan James was killed off

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I haven't caught up but do you mean the Australian special forces guy? The Israeli woman who was his fighting partner upon joining the Nathan James was killed off

Yes. Thanks for the correction.

[jhlipton]

ABC had a preview of their new fall shows, with the theme of WDBWA.  The one show with a prominent Black woman is Kevin [Probably] Saves the World. But don't get too excited -- she's only there to be a Magical Negro for Kevin.   Yay?

The only show with any real promise is The Mayor.

[Silver Raven]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

The only show with any real promise is The Mayor.

That looks good, as long as they don't make it all about Lea Michele.

[DearEvette]

On 8/23/2017 at 3:26 AM, jhlipton said:

ABC had a preview of their new fall shows, with the theme of WDBWA.  The one show with a prominent Black woman is Kevin [Probably] Saves the World. But don't get too excited -- she's only there to be a Magical Negro for Kevin.   Yay?

The only show with any real promise is The Mayor.

It sounds like the show is proactively trying not to do that.  They must have gotten some feedback or when they recast the role with her in it, they made a conscious decision to not to go there.  There was an article in TV guide that addresses that issue and seeks to reassure that she is a Warrior of God sent to help, but that she had her own mission and her own story so her purpose  isn't just to be there to help the white guy.  It'll be interesting to see if it actually succeeds or if the writers just can't help themselves and the character  slides into that trope anyway.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

It sounds like the show is proactively trying not to do that.  They must have gotten some feedback or when they recast the role with her in it, they made a conscious decision to not to go there.

Based SOLELY on the preview, there wasn't any of that.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

The only show with any real promise is The Mayor.

I'm kinda looking forward to this show as well. When I saw the promo I immediately thought of Chris Rock's movie Head of State. This movie was some ignorant shit, but I couldn't stop laughing.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[possibilities]

The most recent episode of the "Politically Reactive" podcast has an interview with April Rain who is running a campaign to stop "Confederate" from happening. She's absolutely delightful. Her interview is the last one in the "Smashing the Confederacy in the streets and on the screen" episode. Unfortunately, Politically Reactive doesn't label their episodes with a number or a date, but right now that's the one on the top of the list for Season 2.

https://www.politicallyreactive.com/

[galax-arena]

I was reading the episode threads for one show and came across a comment defending the show against criticism re: its portrayal of POC/LGBT characters, saying how the show had only been on for ten episodes. This is a common rebuttal I've seen, the idea that it's silly to criticize when a show has only been on for [insert arbitrary number here] episodes because omg it's still early and we need to give them tiiiiime to develop their characters. And frankly, I think it's annoying af, because 5/10/12/etc. episodes don't seem to stop these shows from developing their straight white characters much better than their minority characters, so.... why should we cut them slack? Why are POC and LGBT characters expected to go to the back of the line and wait until the white characters are done cooking before they get their slice of the pie? 

[phoenics]

3 hours ago, galax-arena said:

Why are POC and LGBT characters expected to go to the back of the line and wait until the white characters are done cooking before they get their slice of the pie? 

This is one of my biggest pet peeves.  It happens so much that I usually want to scream back that the person arguing it is supporting white supremacy.  Because, in effect, they ARE.  They are promoting the idea that white, straight people should come first and get first crack at everything and POC/LGBT characters are only always supporting.  It becomes very obvious that many fandoms are steeped in white supremacy when they instantly complain about any POC/LGBT people cast in LEADING roles.  It's usually shrouded in "legitimate sounding" gripes about the characters, but we all know it's just an excuse.  The way Iris West was treated on The Flash (and still is by some) was an obvious example.

The way fandom reacted to her actually led me to being not so surprised at the election results in 2016.  White supremacist "us first" thought is so very ingrained in our culture.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

The way fandom reacted to her actually led me to being not so surprised at the election results in 2016.  White supremacist "us first" thought is so very ingrained in our culture.

This is very true.  White people and the way white people do everything is seen as the norm.  I was on a commercial thread when people were commenting on that silly commercial with the rapping teacher.  People had to talk about the man's hair; I guess because it seems "strange" and "exotic" because it's not straightened.  It's braided and on top of his head.  If his hair were straight and worn the same way, I doubt people would complain.

[Ohwell]

20 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

This is very true.  White people and the way white people do everything is seen as the norm.  I was on a commercial thread when people were commenting on that silly commercial with the rapping teacher.  People had to talk about the man's hair; I guess because it seems "strange" and "exotic" because it's not straightened.  It's braided and on top of his head.  If his hair were straight and worn the same way, I doubt people would complain.

I don't believe that's true.  I was on the commercial thread and was one of the "complainants" about the hair, and I can honestly say that if a white man had his hair twisted on top of his head like that, I would complain just as much.   There's a commercial where the hipster white guy says "that's a bad mamma jamma" about some car, and many people have commented about his stupid man bun on top of his head.

[Dee]

10 hours ago, galax-arena said:

Why are POC and LGBT characters expected to go to the back of the line and wait until the white characters are done cooking before they get their slice of the pie? 

Because we're not allowed to have anything.

And for that matter can we PLEASE stop labeling characters of color ANGRY if/when they refuse to coddle white characters?

[phoenics]

23 minutes ago, Dee said:

Because we're not allowed to have anything.

And for that matter can we PLEASE stop labeling characters of color ANGRY if/when they refuse to coddle white characters?

Giiiirrrlll...  This.  So much this.

[jhlipton]

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

The way fandom reacted to her actually led me to being not so surprised at the election results in 2016.  White supremacist "us first" thought is so very ingrained in our culture.

Too true, sadly.  But don't you dare call racists and their supporters "deplorable"!

[galax-arena]

It's just tiring. And for the record, I actually like the show in question, albeit in a love-to-hate sort of way because it's such a hot mess. That is to say, I'm more interested in making fun of it for how soapy/ridiculous it is than I am in getting into super serious discussions about its portrayal of POC/LGBT characters  (speaking as a gay woc). But, like, I'm not going to begrudge anyone who does want to talk about it or get shirty about it, because they have a point too. If I don't want to discuss it, I just scroll. I don't think we need to blithely dismiss other people's concerns over a show just bc it harshes our own buzz. That's not to say one can't disagree, e.g. "I don't agree that so-and-so really qualifies as a racial stereotype because blah blah blah," but tbh I don't think "ugh, the show has only been on for 7 episodes!" counts. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by galax-arena

[DearEvette]

On 8/29/2017 at 4:36 PM, Neurochick said:

This is very true.  White people and the way white people do everything is seen as the norm.

White as default is pervasive in all areas of popular media.  It is the reason behind the long-standing tradition of white-washing.  I find it most noticeable in books.  When reading authors will always describe a character of color with their race: A tall black guy, a pretty Asian girl etc.  But when they describe a non-POC it is just a tall man with brown hair.  The lack of the word white means that you automatically know this person is white. 

One reason I love the Ben Aaronvitch Peter Grant books is because every white character is always described as 'white'.  It seems an odd thing to notice, but it is so glaring it jumps out so much because of it's absence everywhere else. (and also these books rock and the river goddesses in London are all portrayed as black) women.

[CoderLady]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

One reason I love the Ben Aaronvitch Peter Grant books is because every white character is always described as 'white'.  It seems an odd thing to notice, but it is so glaring it jumps out so much because of it's absence everywhere else. (and also these books rock and the river goddesses in London are all portrayed as black) women.

And yet more books I'm going to have to read. Thanks! 

[galax-arena]

Quote

One reason I love the Ben Aaronvitch Peter Grant books is because every white character is always described as 'white'.  It seems an odd thing to notice, but it is so glaring it jumps out so much because of it's absence everywhere else. (and also these books rock and the river goddesses in London are all portrayed as black) women.

Not a tv show either, but one thing I loved about Stuart Gibbs' Space Case, which is a series of children's books that takes place in the future on a space station, is that it's noted how most people in the future are mixed and that very few people are purely one race or the other. (In fact, IIRC the only 100% white characters we see are the antagonists.) This is a concept of race/racial demographics that I feel isn't addressed enough in SF television/movies. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by galax-arena

[jhlipton]

12 hours ago, DearEvette said:

One reason I love the Ben Aaronvitch Peter Grant books is because every white character is always described as 'white'.  It seems an odd thing to notice, but it is so glaring it jumps out so much because of it's absence everywhere else. (and also these books rock and the river goddesses in London are all portrayed as black) women.

I'll have to read these too.

In Ursala LeGuin's EarthSea tales, all the major characters are PoC, and the others are described as white.  Of course, when Hollywood got ahold of it, they stripped her of her rights and whitewashed it.  She was of course livid.

[Princess Sparkle]

Chloe Bennett posted on her instagram today about why she changed her last name from "Wang" to "Bennett"

[feverfew]

21 hours ago, CoderLady said:

And yet more books I'm going to have to read. Thanks! 

If you're not afraid of speculative fiction (think sf/fantasy etc) there's beautifully written, socially aware fiction from especially wocs' emerging right now: Nnedi Okorafor, N.K. Jemisin, Nalo Hopkinson. Octavia Butler, of course, is the godmother of Black Sci-Fi. And Helen Oyeyemi is an absolutely stunning writer (I wrote my master thesis on dual identity in first generation immigrants, as seen through her writing -  White is for Witching and The Icarus Girl are painful and awesome and beautiful and necessary reads).

I've just finished my second book by Lila Bowen (Wake of Vultures). She's white, but writes about a gender-queer, half Black/half Native girl in the 19th century and so far, she's done an okay good job of it, I think. The second one was a bit of a disappointment, but that's mainly for plot reasons, not character development.

Edited September 1, 2017 by feverfew

[jhlipton]

@feverfew, I adore Nnedi Okorafor!  Binti is such a great read, and her stories of Lagos are superb.

[selkie]

Ben Aaronovich's Rivers of London series is wonderfully funny urban fantasy where the city of London is as much one of the characters as Peter, Nightingale, Leslie, Beverly, Mama Thames, Sahra Guleed etc. are. It's the city in all its modern multicultural glory, and I just wish that whoever has the tv/film rights would go ahead and figure out how to get it into production already. 

[dalek]

Quote

If you're not afraid of speculative fiction (think sf/fantasy etc) there's beautifully written, socially aware fiction from especially wocs' emerging right now: Nnedi Okorafor, N.K. Jemisin, Nalo Hopkinson. Octavia Butler, of course, is the godmother of Black Sci-Fi. And Helen Oyeyemi is an absolutely stunning writer (I wrote my master thesis on dual identity in first generation immigrants, as seen through her writing -  White is for Witching and The Icarus Girl are painful and awesome and beautiful and necessary reads).

I would also like to recommend Karen Lord.  I really liked her debut novel, Redemption in Indigo.  She also edited of collection of Caribbean speculative fiction called New Worlds, Old Ways.  N.K. Jemisin is great at both short fiction and novels (you can find some of her short fiction online for free at places like Clarkesword and Tor.com).  I really, really over her Hundred Thousand Kinggdoms trilogy, and 2 of her books just won the Hugo award for best novel back to back.  Okarofor's Who Fears Death is just stunning.  And if you like Horror, I would recommend Tananarive Due.

[ApathyMonger]

On 8/31/2017 at 3:20 AM, DearEvette said:

 

One reason I love the Ben Aaronvitch Peter Grant books is because every white character is always described as 'white'.

 

Neil Gaiman did the same in Anansi Boys. I don't think it ever states that the lead characters are black, but it always establishes when a character who shows up is white.

[In2You]

I havent watched the show in a long time but I see OUAT is redoing their Rupunzel storyline. This time with a white actress. I still remember all the outrage when Alexandra Metz was cast.

http://tvline.com/2017/09/08/once-upon-a-time-season-7-rapunzel-meegan-warner/

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, In2You said:

I havent watched the show in a long time but I see OUAT is redoing their Rupunzel storyline. This time with a white actress. I still remember all the outrage when Alexandra Metz was cast.

http://tvline.com/2017/09/08/once-upon-a-time-season-7-rapunzel-meegan-warner/

At least there are two or three black actresses in the reboot, so I don't think that will be a problem. 

[Irlandesa]

AMC is creating They Can't Kill Us All: Ferguson, Baltimore and a new era in America's racial justice movement. based on Wesley Lowery's book  which is described as looking at  Black Lives Matter in the context of US history.

[possibilities]

Wow. That could be great if they do it right. Do we have any reason to trust AMC? Because it could be horrible, too, if they fuck it up.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Wow. That could be great if they do it right. Do we have any reason to trust AMC? Because it could be horrible, too, if they fuck it up.

I'd look more at the people who are doing the show than the network.  The producer seems to have mostly done comedy/parody horror while the main writer, who I assume will shape the show, wrote for Turn.  I don't know much about her.

[Dee]

The Scrutable West: Industry Bias, Whitewashing and the Invisible Asian in Hollywood

Quote

Even after studying to be an English major and embarking on a career in government public relations, I don’t think I’ve ever spun as many excuses as Hollywood directors and actors when it comes to dancing around why they can’t just cast an Asian person in a role. Race-blind casting that wipes out formerly Asian characters. A blockbuster that demands an actor with sufficient star power, which axiomatically means nobody descended from the cultures on the planet’s most populous continent. A fear of making a stereotypical character—because, I mean, how can you write an Asian who isn’t a stereotype, right?

The past couple of years have brought us several object lessons in the above, and every other iteration of Hollywood’s baffling tendency to quietly fight tooth and nail not to have an Asian actor on screen. As someone of just enough Asian descent that you need to be at least Midwestern levels of racist to see it in me without me first informing you, I can’t help but notice the total lack of representation. Neither could the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights when it issued its report “Window Dressing on the Set: Women and Minorities in Television.” It issued that report in 1977. Forty years ago. In the intervening period, it’s barely gotten any better.

[galax-arena]

“I work with a lot of different people, and Asians are a challenge to cast because most casting directors feel as though they’re not very expressive,” one other casting director told Yuen.

This bullshit - the idea of the "inscrutable" Asian - was the sort of rationalization that led to Japanese internment during WWII. 

[jhlipton]

I'll bet Asian get the "We only cast the best" (there are no good Asian actors, amirite?) and "but the source material only has whites" (and we can't change the source material -- except to white; just ask Ursala LeGuin -- or pick source material that has Asians in it!) garbage.

[Dee]

Author Michael Lewis Says Hollywood Won’t Adapt Flash Boys Because It Has an Asian Lead

Quote

“Right now [the Flash Boys adaptation is] close to dead,” Lewis said during an event at the Library of Congress’s National Book Festival on Saturday. “The problem was revealed in the Sony hack. There were emails back and forth about how impossible it was to make a movie with an Asian lead.” He added, “They’ve gotten to the point where they’re nervous about making an Asian guy a white guy. Decades ago, they weren’t. They would have just done that. But they don’t think there’s a well-enough known Asian male actor. Which I think is crazy.”

[topanga]

4 hours ago, Dee said:

Author Michael Lewis Says Hollywood Won’t Adapt Flash Boys Because It Has an Asian Lead

So executives would rather kill a project than feature an Asian lead? Wow. That's (not) progress. 

[possibilities]

Am I delusional? I recall that Joy Luck Club successful back in the day.

Also, do I live in an alternate universe, where is Jackie Chan a figment of my imagination?

It's been done. Excuses are just excuses.

Edited September 13, 2017 by possibilities