S01.E13: Daredevil

[millennium]

 

I'm also disappointed that Karen still doesn't know. Don't make her into an Iris West, show.

 

 

Why is it a thing now that every superhero needs to have a support team and their secret identity known by multiple individuals?

 

I would have quit Batman long ago -- hell, I probably never would have gotten hooked as a kid -- if there had been "Team Batman."

[FurryFury]

I don't care about Batman, personally. What I care about are ensembles and teams. I grew up on Buffy and Farscape, not on comics. So I've little patience for the "hiding your identity" trope. I find it excruciatingly tedious.

 

And yes, I do realize that it's a comic book adaptation. But not all of them feature this constant lying. Arrow still has Team Arrow, which many consider to be the best part of the show (I don't watch it anymore, but for different reasons). The Flash has only one character not in the know. Agents of SHIELD isn't about superheroes at all. And here, Foggy already knows, Claire already knows (even if we'll never see her again on this show). I don't see how Karen being excluded benefits the show in any way.

Edited April 29, 2015 by FurryFury

[Eneya]

Why is it a thing now that every superhero needs to have a support team and their secret identity known by multiple individuals?

 

I would have quit Batman long ago -- hell, I probably never would have gotten hooked as a kid -- if there had been "Team Batman."

But there IS team Batman. The list of people who know the indetity of Batman is huge.

[millennium]

But there IS team Batman. The list of people who know the indetity of Batman is huge.

 

Not so much when I was a kid.   Batman was a loner again, Robin was full of attitude and away at college.   It was just him and Alfred. 

[Eneya]

Not so much when I was a kid.   Batman was a loner again, Robin was full of attitude and away at college.   It was just him and Alfred. 

How old are you? :) Because when I was a kid... it was more or less something that a lot of people knew.

We should probably make a list?

 

I think we are spamming though. :)

[millennium]

I don't care about Batman, personally. What I care about are ensembles and teams. I grew up on Buffy and Farscape, not on comics. So I've little patience for the "hiding your identity" trope. I find it excruciatingly tedious.

 

And yes, I do realize that it's a comic book adaptation. But not all of them feature this constant lying. Arrow still has Team Arrow, which many consider to be the best part of the show (I don't watch it anymore, but for different reasons). The Flash has only one character not in the know. Agents of SHIELD isn't about superheroes at all. And here, Foggy already knows, Claire already knows (even if we'll never see her again on this show). I don't see how Karen being excluded benefits the show in any way.

 

I've always been a fan of secret identities.    I know this is the age of "sharing" but privacy and secrets still carry great dramatic potential.

 

IMHO, having so many people in-the-know dilutes the enigmatic charisma of a superhero.

 

I was already grown before Buffy came along (FWIW, I think "Angel" is the superior show).

[FurryFury]

Angel is my favorite show ever, so I'm inclined to agree about that (even if I do think that seasons 2&3 of BtVS are some of the best TV I've ever seen).

 

Anyway, the secret identity stuff just doesn't work on TV, I think. People tend to watch for characters and relationships more than the visuals, and things like constant lies tend to destroy these relationships. Also, to stay interesting, TV shows has to constantly make changes. Thus, the other characters on superhero shows do find out about this stuff, sooner or later, which allows them to be a part of A-plots about crime fighting. Otherwise, they'll have to be kept outside of the meaty stuff and their stories will feel repetitive. I do think Karen's investigation story was the best example of what to do in such a situation (just compare it to the scraps The Flash has been giving Iris all season), but still, it's only a temporary solution at best.

Edited April 29, 2015 by FurryFury

[Dandesun]

Marvel tends to go back and forth on the secret identity issue. Daredevil's secret identity has been the lynch-pin of several storylines. Peter Parker as Spider-Man's secret identity has been an ongoing factor in his story. But then you've got Steve Rogers and Tony Stark who are just who they are. However, in the comics, there was a period where Steve Rogers was a secret identity. The Fantastic Four were public right from the start. And the X-Men started off wearing masks but, over the years, that became rather moot. For their part, anti-mutant sentiment required them to go underground a time or two but the masks went away probably as a result of a 'Fuck those guys' sentiment. And, to be honest, over the years they either had masks or transformations or mind-wiping or magical interference to conceal identities.

 

None of the X-Men seem to wear masks anymore. Ms. Marvel DOES have a secret identity she protects because she's a teenager and she doesn't want her parents to know what she's doing AND wants to protect her family and friends from the enemies she's racking up. I don't think any of the Avengers have secret identities anymore... Luke Cage and Jessica Jones go by their actual names as opposed to codenames (they used to be Power Man and Jewel respectively.)

 

At this point, I think there are really only a small number of heroes that rely on a secret identity. Spider-Man and Daredevil top that list. On TV, I think there is less patience for that getting drawn out but it really is a major factor in a lot of Daredevil stories, especially since he's a lawyer during the day, so I can see them holding into it.

[arc]

Why is it a thing now that every superhero needs to have a support team and their secret identity known by multiple individuals?

 

I would have quit Batman long ago -- hell, I probably never would have gotten hooked as a kid -- if there had been "Team Batman."

The fundamental problem with secret identities in comics and shows is that you need main characters to be kept in the dark or the audience won't care about it remaining a secret, but the reasons for doing so -- usually, it's to protect them -- look completely unjustified since, being main characters, they're constantly imperiled anyways because the stakes are lower when it's just random people in danger.

 

Plus, I love comic books, but even the really talented artists often aren't that good at drawing different faces, so there's already a baked-in suspension of disbelief that, say, Lois Lane doesn't recognize Superman because he took off his glasses.  Every man that age has Clark Kent's face!  Which is something you just can't have in live action.

 

I agree that Matt can't go as public as MCU Tony Stark did, because Matt is a lawyer and his crime-fighting is more down to earth and he's had to beat up (corrupt, mostly) police. But I lean towards the side that says he should at least tell Karen.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I could see the need for Foggy being told; but Karen? The trust needs to be built up. I mean, how much time passed in this season? 

I'm just saying that I'm not peeved that Karen didn't learn who Matt is in the first season.

[millennium]

Thing is, the more people you tell, the greater the liability, not only for the hero but the guardian of the secret.    Say a person of bad intent gets a suspicion Karen knows who Daredevil is, maybe due to an offhand comment or some other unconscious slip on her part.    I don't relish the idea of Karen being beaten, tortured or killed for that information by, say, Wilson Fisk.  (Although it might make for a memorable episode in any one of the current superhero shows on TV -- the true cost of telling too many people your secret.) 

 

As for the superhero's own safety, as the circle of the secret keeps expanding, the odds increase that one of your enemies will learn the truth and use it to blindside you.   (Nobody in Team Arrow or Team Flash seems very worried about either of these scenarios.)

[Shanna]

But Claire was in danger without knowing matts name. So keeping the identity secret is more about protecting him than it would be about Karen. And if anyone finds out or suspects who he is Karen would be in danger regardless. Not that I mind Karen not knowing yet, I just thought she might have figured it out.

Batman had a team of Alfred, robin and sometimes batgirl, right? I like teams. Gives the hero someone to talk to. I think Matt can keep a secret from the world at large and that is enough.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Shanna

[MisterGlass]

I'm not sure I would trust Karen right now.  She's the one who led Ben into danger.  I could see her egging Matt on to something more reckless than usual.  And they've only known her for what, three months?

 

Nessun Dorma was a little over the top, and things did seem a little quick, but I liked the episode and where it leaves things.

[Bec]

She already kind of did egg him on without even knowing Matt is the guy in the mask. Back in the episode where Matt fought Nobu? When she said she hoped the masked man finds Fisk and knock his head off - Matt still wasn't sure if he should kill Fisk at that point, I think that gave him an extra push in the direction of "urge to kill rising".

 

But somehow I don't think she would have said that if she knew Matt would actually try to risk life and limb to do it.

 

Sure she tricked Ben into seeing Fisk's mother, but there was no way she could have guessed Fisk would kill Ben for merely talking to his mother (seriously that was so WTF).

[Atony]

Though, I think it's hard to conclude that your blind lawyer friend is in fact a masked superhero

 

Exactly.  When it comes to superhero identities Matt Murdock has the best possible cover up because he is freakin blind!  No one would imagine the vigilante out there beating people up is a blind guy, it takes him away as even a possible suspect.  I completely understand why Karen, and other people close to him, could never make that connection

[arc]

Exactly.  When it comes to superhero identities Matt Murdock has the best possible cover up because he is freakin blind!  No one would imagine the vigilante out there beating people up is a blind guy, it takes him away as even a possible suspect.  I completely understand why Karen, and other people close to him, could never make that connection

As Texts from Superheroes points out, the Man In The Black Mask costume kind of hints at this though because it's a blindfold/mask. Yes, theoretically a sighted person could see through a porous mask design like that, but DD operates late at night in dimly lit places and that kind of mask limits visibility for anyone who relies on sight.

[Morgan of Hed]

In the Miller comics that a lot of the tone of this series is taken from, Karen knows and is a love interest for Matt. They have alluded to past problems in her life that crop up in the graphic novel "Born Again"

[starchild215]

I just finished Episode 13. It works wonderfully. Jimmy Cliff's "Many Rivers to Cross" was so prophetic and set the tone of the episode. Nessum Dorma ("None Shall Sleep") during the raids was perfect as well since just when you thought it was safe to breathe it wasn't. 

 

I thought Leland has big shiny brass ones to admit to Fisk what he and Gao had done and that the target was Vanessa. That's what cost him his life. Like Ben Fisk perceived him as having violated the woman he loved (mother by Ben, actual lover by Leland). I figured out it was he and Gao behind the poisonings after they happened. That there was collateral damage didn't matter to him or Fisk.

 

The jaw dropper for me was who was the mole in the news room. The face of the actor playing the editor showed every emotion from shock to remorse he felt about what happened and how he was manipulated as well. When I saw her at the funeral I was like "why is she there?"

 

I don't see Karen as a hero. She's a survivor. I think she came to NY to escape something and we'll find out more next season. She knows how to use a gun very, very well. She's got big secrets too. She's hiding in plain sight. Am I the only one who was surprised at the scene, I think it was last episode, where she played the perfect secretary and got coffee? Matt knows she's lying and I know she knows he knows she lying about the change in her. 

 

Vanessa is one of the most fascinating female characters I've seen on TV. Along with Karen they are attractive, desirable women but able to hold their own in a crisis without running to a man and saying "hold me". Claire had better be back next season. 

 

I'm worried about Mr Goodguy Cop.

 

I've been a fan of Vincent D'onofrio since "Criminal Intent". Those scenes at the end where he was literally large and in charge, where he defines himself as the evil the traveler met along the road. Awesome.

 

I'm not finished processing the series or this episode. I'm just upset that the next season will be 2017. UGH!

[starchild215]

I was just reading the thread to discuss the entire season and was struck by the number of people who were made uneasy by the overall darkness of the show. Not just the story line(s) but the lighting of the show. Even during the day there was a hint of darkness. The only time there wasn't was at the end of this episode. When the plaque with the name of their firm is unveiled the focus is on the bright shiny new sign, a sign befitting a modestly successful law firm. 

 

Then the camera pulls back and you see the squalor that surrounds  the lawyers and their secretary. The last scene is literally the pile of trash across the street from the office that is waiting to be taken out. And the scene is lit as if it's a bright sunny day with no hint of darkness around the edges. It's a great scene.

 

The other thing I noticed was the difference between Fisk's original wall - it was white, the painting he bought that led to his meeting Vanessa,  "Rabbit in a Snow Storm" was white but the final wall in the prison was gray edging into black. 

 

This kind of work is what makes this series great.

Edited May 15, 2015 by starchild215

[mtlchick]

Finally finished it.  I enjoyed it immensely.  My own nitpick?  Is there only one cemetery in New York?  Because they filmed at the one that most TV shows use.  I was half expecting seeing the names of people featured on other shows.

[Bec]

It's probably a matter of only being allowed to film there. I would imagine not that many cemetaries are open to a film crew coming in and getting equipment and stuff all over the place.

[Haunted]

Honestly this episode was a little disappointing to me. It turned the show from a "deep, dark drama" to another typical marvel superhero plot. I hope this won't go on in the second season...

[Primetimer]

Matt Murdock becomes The Man Without Fear (Of Cancellation).

Read the story

[JD Ruskin]

I liked season 1, but I'm less excited now that James Wesley is dead. He was my favorite character. Overall, I find Fisk's story line more interesting than Matt's. I liked the idea of Karen toughing up and shooting Wesley, but I wish he would've lived through it.

[Yokosmom]

I liked season 1, but I'm less excited now that James Wesley is dead. He was my favorite character.

 

He was my favorite character too--I would have loved to have gotten a backstory on how those two got together and why Wesley was so loyal to Fisk.  From a story standpoint, though, I understand why they had to get rid of Wesley--the last few episodes were spent slowly stripping everything/one Fisk cared about away from him.  It would have taken longer to get there if Wesley had still been around. Also, quite genius to have him get done in by Karen, and in part due to an ill-timed phone call from Fisk. Still.....damn, the actor brought a lot to that role. Kudos to he and the writers for not making him a mindless, generic, minion.  Here's to hoping we'll get some more interesting characters in season 2.

[Bec]

Wesley can still come back for flashbacks. We still don't know how Fisk went from going to live in the country after killing his dad with a hammer to super-successful crime boss. Wesley probably had something to do with that. If Fisk is still around next season as the Kingpin, then we still have reason to learn more about how he rose to power.

 

Just speculating, but I think he will be back to pull the strings behind the new villains, and besides, we have to see at least some of his trial, don't we?

 

Good thing my favorite character is Matt. He's not getting killed off any time soon. Hee.

[WendyCR72]

I have zip to base this on, and I admit my liking of VDO as an actor may shade this with some bias, but I think he'll return. VDO has gotten enough press and seems to be successful with his take on Fisk (although I do realize not everyone shares that opinion!). And doesn't the character factor in fairly heavily in the comics?

 

I have no doubt there will be other criminals to spice things up. I just don't think we have seen the last of Fisk, is all.

[Carrie Ann]

I'd like it if VDO could appear in five eps and Rosario Dawson could appear in 11 in S2. Just reverse the ratio of their appearances, spread the money out that way. I know I'm not going to get that, but my interest in Fisk is pretty much worn out at this point, and I certainly don't need another season where he's the main villain.

[Bec]

That sounds good to me, Carrie Ann. I think Fisk needs to still be around. But he can be more in the background in the future. I do agree he would wear thin if we keep seeing too much of him. A little bit of Fisk goes a long way.

[JTMacc99]

That sounds good to me, Carrie Ann. I think Fisk needs to still be around. But he can be more in the background in the future. I do agree he would wear thin if we keep seeing too much of him. A little bit of Fisk goes a long way.

With very few exceptions, comic book villains are better in small doses. The hero is in every story, the bad guys rotate through.  That's the usual formula.  Some can be a constant presence in the story, but rarely can one be the main antagonist in every story.

[greyhorse]

I never followed Daredevil when reading comic books and wasn't much of a fan, but I got sucked into this series quickly and binge watched it within a matter of days.

Can't wait until next season.

 

I don't understand why he doesn't cover his mouth.  Doesn't he think his cheek bones, facial hair, and teeth could give away his identity?  But if I recall in the comic books, he never had a full mask either, so I suppose it follows suit.

 

Not a fan of Vincent Donofrio, but he rocked as Kingpin.  Was the actor always this heavy?  I don't recall him always being this large, but in any case, it suited the Kingpin role perfectly.

 

I'm glad Leland met his demise.  What an idiot.  Admitting to the hulking Kingpin that you were trying to screw him over, take his money, and kill off his girlfriend?  Just plain dumb.  I dislike that actor and therefore disliked his character who was really annoying.  I knew he was in on the poisoning when he kept stammering "Should somebody check me out?  I touched a glass!"  I suppose he was purposefully expressing concern to deflect suspicion, but it likely didn't confuse many viewers.

[WendyCR72]

Was [Vincent D'Onofrio] always this heavy?  I don't recall him always being this large, but in any case, it suited the Kingpin role perfectly.

 

He started gaining weight towards the latter seasons of Law & Order: Criminal Intent but actually seemed to lose some by its last season. It was said here he specifically gained weight for the role. (Kingpin is mammoth in the comics, I guess.) I know he is now appearing in Jurassic World and from clips I've seen, he looks relatively "normal"-sized again, so...

[jeansheridan]

I am new to DareDevil so no expectations. I love Charlie Cox and Vincent D. So hoped for the best. And I mostly found things to admire: A depiction of New York as diverse and with many languages to the point the actors did scenes in other languages even if was painful to hear. Vincent's "Mandarin" comes to mind.

 

Karen had a full plot arc all to herself. Connected to Matt and Foggy, but her own. It was dull sometimes unfortunately. Her wavering cry-voice drove me nuts sometimes, but she had a real plot with two major consequences.

 

Vanessa and Fisk are an awesome couple. I did not want her to die. I loved watching her pick his clothes. And she seems loyal.

 

The bad: sometimes slow. Really long fight scenes. Charlie Cox's harsh whisper. And yes he does always sound the same. He has Hugh Dancy' s same voice from Hannibal. Same voice coach?

 

Oh and Scott Glenn kicked ass.

Edited June 23, 2015 by WendyCR72
Edited to remove coding. Just use enter for paragraphs. Thanks!

[JustaPerson]

 

Vincent's "Mandarin" comes to mind.

I got my dad to watch the show, and he couldn't understand those scenes at all. Well, the same thing happened to me whenever they spoke it in Firefly. 

[Bec]

To answer greyhorse's question, Vincent D'Onofrio definitely wasn't always this size. He played Thor in a movie once:

[WendyCR72]

To answer greyhorse's question, Vincent D'Onofrio definitely wasn't always this size. He played Thor in a movie once:

 

Adventures In Babysitting! That will never get old. And to be fair, that was 28 years ago now.

[Bec]

Haha, yeah, I just get a kick out of how D'Onofrio played Thor (sort of) and now Kingpin. I just watched Adventures in Babysitting again, and there was even a small mention of Daredevil in there when the little girl was all excited about getting to go into the city: "All the superheroes live in the city. Spider-Man, Daredevil and Captain America."

 

I couldn't help but think those kids in Adventures in Babysitting really could have used Daredevil's help when they kept getting chased by bad guys in the city. I feel a crossover fanfic coming on.

[raven]

 

Adventures In Babysitting! That will never get old. And to be fair, that was 28 years ago now.

I love that movie!  Didn't realize that was him *doh*  Nobody leaves this place without singing the blues! Our Daredevil heroes wouldn't have any problems there.

Edited July 14, 2015 by raven

[rubyred]

Late to the party so forgive the rant. I enjoyed the season so much except DAMN I am pissed off at Karen. And I don't want to be, I like Deborah Ann Woll, but the constant sob-talking and her insistence that Ben to what she wants right now it's important really grated. And then of course, her selfish agenda got Ben killed. And THEN, to add insult to injury, she unloads her guilt on his crying wife AT HIS GRAVESIDE and Show has his wife ABSOLVE HER. No. No no no.

 

I don't think it was deliberate that the fight for Hell's Kitchen systematically stripped the show and the neighborhood of character, ethnicity and PoCs. But that's exactly what happened. Ben's death wasn't necessary; we'd already had graphic proof that Wilson was a Very Bad Man with his murder of Anatoly. The only PoCs left standing are Officer Brett and Madame Gao, and who knows when we'll see her again.

 

But even giving the benefit of the doubt, I think this underscores a frailty in adapting from the comics universe: yes, you've got canon and origin story to mine, but it's mostly about the hero. In the present day, people will notice when 50s tropes are presented as right and true (I see you, The Flash and it's ridiculous "protection" of Iris). Karen is lauded as having "agency" because she's the one who shot Wesley, but other than getting rid of the gun she did nothing else reasonable, like telling her good friends the lawyers what's going on. Which I guess is par for the course for Karen, since she did the same to Ben when she dragged him up to St. Whatever's to meet Fisk's mom without his knowledge or consent.

 

Also, these kids need to lay off the strong spirits. Watching them knock back so much alcohol did a number on my stomach lining.

 

TL; DR: Karen pissed me off for being selfish and getting Ben killed. Comics, though there have been improvements (Claire rocks), are still bad at depicting women.

[Dobian]

Overall I liked it, and the season as a whole.  I agree with some that the ending felt really rushed, once Matt got that cop safely to the precinct to give testimony the dominos started falling in rapid succession.  A few other nitpicks, like Fisk just having everyone on the take, enabling his escape.  How can a guy this rich and powerful sail under the radar for like, forever?  And the final showdown with Matt.  Matt is this mixed martial arts guy who flips and jumps around, so why does he suddenly go all Rocky Balboa when fighting Fisk the gorilla?  That was the worst way to fight him.  Matt's not his dad and this wasn't a boxing match.  I actually prefer Matt's low budget street clothes with t-shirt wrapped around the head look to his costume, which looks cheesy.  I get why he needs the body armor, though, I'm surprised he made it through the first season still able to walk.  Anyway, props to Vincent D'Onofrio for an outstanding villain.  Scary and real, a twelve year old boy who never matured emotionally and still mentally trapped in his childhood while in the body of a hulking adult with money and power.  A true psychopath.  And honorable mention to Karen and Foggy, Foggy is my favorite on the show.

[Dobian]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2015 at 5:21 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Adventures In Babysitting! That will never get old. And to be fair, that was 28 years ago now.

Hate to be such a necro, but forget 28 years.  This is how he looked in Adventures in Babysitting and in Full Metal Jacket, the SAME YEAR.  In Full Metal Jacket you can definitely see Fisk in his formative years.

 

[sinkwriter]

Quote

 I shouted "Leeeeeelaaaaaaand noooooooo" as he fell down the shaft...

Frankly, I've been waiting for something like that to happen since episode 1. That guy's big mouth was bound to get him into trouble sooner or later. He could never shut up with his snark. Once he actually took part in getting Vanessa poisoned, I figured it was only a matter of time before Fisk found out and killed him. I figured it was him before he ever admitted it. I couldn't believe Wesley never followed up to make sure things were okay with Gao. He just took Leland at his word, which to me was suspect all along, especially given how much he bitched about everything. 

[Raja]

On 4/11/2015 at 11:51 AM, Actionmage said:

It was more of the "modern classic" Hornhead, but I wasn't too keen on what I saw of the eyes.  This is one of the very few heroes that can get away with a full head cover, so why all the black?

Right? I mean he had Feds in his pocket, or at least people dressed up as Feds willing to gun down street cops. Which is why I lol'd at Fisk asking Matt whether he thought Fisk's arrest would do anything. If I've learned nothing else from Marvel Comics and movies, it's that New Yorkers, while they have problems with cops? They hate folks opening fire, with better weapons, on the cue of one supposed "philanthropist" billionaire. When Fisk asked about one masked man, I said to my screen "Captain America."  Still, yeah, Fisk had very deep and very wide pockets, so Matt should have shadowed the Big Man back to whatever cell they were taking him to sit in.  (Very nice callback in the cell, too.)

The thing is Captain America was never a masked man. From the moment he was to be used for propaganda Captain Rogers was a costumed man and everybody knew who Steve Rogers was.