One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[JayInChicago]

I'm just gonna say that I come from a working class background with young parents and I don't think it was tragic. It's not what I wanted for myself, but I'm also not straight, not a fan of traditional gender roles, etc.

And Lane wasn't really depicted as academically oriented, which honestly I thought was weird because she was smart. I'm not sure what careers Adventist college's degrees lead to either. 

[Anela]

On 6/21/2016 at 6:21 PM, amensisterfriend said:

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I keep having problems when I try to comment (as in the post above). 

I remember Lane being upset by the results of her aptitude test (was it?). She was venting about how she'd be stuck as a sales person. 

I was disappointed that she was stuck in Stars Hollow, as well. Maybe in the new episodes, we'll see her as more successful somehow. Although there's nothing wrong with having a normal job, and a lovely little family. 

[timimouse]

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was tragic, I just don't think it was in keeping with the character. Whilst I didn't see Lane as an academic genius, I did get the impression she would follow a career in music, which would mean leaving Stars Hollow. There's nothing wrong with getting married and having kids at 22, I just didn't see Lane Kim as one to follow that path.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Why did she have to get pregnant, though? If the show had left out Kwan and Steve, she could just as easily gone off on that tour with Zach and had the chance to drum for Vapor Rub. 

[junienmomo]

15 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Why did she have to get pregnant, though? If the show had left out Kwan and Steve, she could just as easily gone off on that tour with Zach and had the chance to drum for Vapor Rub. 

Interesting question. My conjecture:

Weddings and babies are near-musts for family-oriented dramedy. Sookie had nearly fulfilled Jackson's goal, and judging by the number of appearances later in the series, no one cared. Liz was going to have Doula eventually, but no way in hell was ASP going to give either of the GG a marriage or a baby as we now know in retrospect.

Not so many choices left except for Lane. Although, I would have LOVED to see a Kirk/Lulu kid.

What were the weddings and kids in the series?

• S1: Lorelai's engagement, plus Independence Inn weddings
• S2: Lorelai's aborted wedding and Sookie's wedding and the potential of Christopher/Lorelai
• S3: Sookie and Sherry babies and Kirk gets a cat. No weddings, but they are queued up for S4.
• S4: Luke's marriage, Dean's wedding, Liz' wedding
• S5: Sookie's second baby, the vow renewal
• S6: They kinda start running out of characters to get married or pregnant.  Oh wait, look! There's Lane! And we can make a non-canon, half-grown kid appear out of nowhere!
• S7: I'm out. Don't even wanna talk about it.

[clack]

Think of all the concern and disappointment among family and friends when Rory drops out of Yale. Bright, energetic, ambitious Lane, meanwhile, winds up in a minimum-wage, dead end, low status job (barely one step up from working at McDonald's).

Where is the concern for Lane? Shouldn't Luke be pushing her to do more with her life? Lorelai advising her about night school business classes? Sookie telling her about culinary arts degrees, or even just offering her a job in the kitchen? Rory having a real heart-to-heart talk with her about Lane's prospects?

Lane was based on Helen Pai, one of the Gilmore Girls producers. Not that Lane has to become a TV producer, but what in her life would be an equivalent goal? How would she get there?

It would probably involve going on to higher education, and it certainly would involve leaving Stars Hollow.

[junienmomo]

26 minutes ago, clack said:

Think of all the concern and disappointment among family and friends when Rory drops out of Yale. Bright, energetic, ambitious Lane, meanwhile, winds up in a minimum-wage, dead end, low status job (barely one step up from working at McDonald's).

Where is the concern for Lane? Shouldn't Luke be pushing her to do more with her life? Lorelai advising her about night school business classes? Sookie telling her about culinary arts degrees, or even just offering her a job in the kitchen? Rory having a real heart-to-heart talk with her about Lane's prospects?

Lane was based on Helen Pai, one of the Gilmore Girls producers. Not that Lane has to become a TV producer, but what in her life would be an equivalent goal? How would she get there?

It would probably involve going on to higher education, and it certainly would involve leaving Stars Hollow.

I think it's simply that Lane wasn't a friend of any of those people except Rory. With the exception of occasionally depending on Lorelai and working for Luke, she didn't socialize with them until season 6, when suddenly Lorelai couldn't live without going to Lane's wedding and Luke was the only choice for godfather. Brian and Zach are one step further removed, but also in the same situation. No job, no higher education, no prospects, didn't seem to care.

[JayInChicago]

There is no particular reason to assume Lane made minimum wage. Servers can make a lot more in tips. It's not a glamorous job and is a hard one, but Luke was most likely an amazing boss, which is a goldmine and pretty rare in working class jobs. He closed the diner when Lane was about to give birth. He probably provided them with health insurance of some kind, at least that's my head canon. I believe Luke would be the type of boss to pay his workers a living wage with benefits.

[elang4]

1 hour ago, JayInChicago said:

There is no particular reason to assume Lane made minimum wage. Servers can make a lot more in tips. It's not a glamorous job and is a hard one, but Luke was most likely an amazing boss, which is a goldmine and pretty rare in working class jobs. He closed the diner when Lane was about to give birth. He probably provided them with health insurance of some kind, at least that's my head canon. I believe Luke would be the type of boss to pay his workers a living wage with benefits.

I agree. I think he would be a great boss. Even Zach said something like Lane was right, you're a great boss so they'd obviously talked about it. :)

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I really don't find it sad that Lane worked at the diner. Almost every musician I know works a similar job because the income is steady and the hours are flexible, which enables them time to write, rehearse, and play. Musicians don't have traditional career trajectories anyway, so I don't see her playing with the band while working in the diner as the result of her lack of ambition. Though if Hep Alien really wanted representation they should've been in either Philly or New York every weekend, the clubs are swarming with A&R types. I just hate that she had to put her goals on hold to raise babies while her husband got a once in a lifetime opportunity. 

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I really don't find it sad that Lane worked at the diner. Almost every musician I know works a similar job because the income is steady and the hours are flexible, which enables them time to write, rehearse, and play. Musicians don't have traditional career trajectories anyway, so I don't see her playing with the band while working in the diner as the result of her lack of ambition. Though if Hep Alien really wanted representation they should've been in either Philly or New York every weekend, the clubs are swarming with A&R types. I just hate that she had to put her goals on hold to raise babies while her husband got a once in a lifetime opportunity. 

Yeah but to be fair Zach said he wouldn't go and didn't want to go without her. She was the one who insisted he go.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

24 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Yeah but to be fair Zach said he wouldn't go and didn't want to go without her. She was the one who insisted he go.

I'm not blaming Zach, I blame the writers. I know S7 had a lot working against it--mostly it was trying to salvage itself from the fire ASP left in her wake after S6--but why add to it by knocking up Lane? Aren't there enough stories to be mined from the newly married couple dealing with life while being in a band together?

[Meow25]

20 hours ago, timimouse said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was tragic, I just don't think it was in keeping with the character. Whilst I didn't see Lane as an academic genius, I did get the impression she would follow a career in music, which would mean leaving Stars Hollow. There's nothing wrong with getting married and having kids at 22, I just didn't see Lane Kim as one to follow that path.

My personal wish for Lane was that she rebelled by leaving her crazy college to go to a small liberal arts school to become a music teacher, and maybe show up on screen occasionally with her college band,  and for spring breaks, christmas, etc...   It wouldn't have assassinated the character.  

Her scenes were so boring post-high school that I often FF through them.  

[Kohola3]

52 minutes ago, Meow25 said:

Her scenes were so boring post-high school that I often FF through them.  

Me, too.  I couldn't stand most of the band stuff and then when they went the twins route....just boring as hell.

[TimetravellingBW]

9 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I really don't find it sad that Lane worked at the diner. Almost every musician I know works a similar job because the income is steady and the hours are flexible, which enables them time to write, rehearse, and play. Musicians don't have traditional career trajectories anyway, so I don't see her playing with the band while working in the diner as the result of her lack of ambition. Though if Hep Alien really wanted representation they should've been in either Philly or New York every weekend, the clubs are swarming with A&R types. I just hate that she had to put her goals on hold to raise babies while her husband got a once in a lifetime opportunity. 

10 hours ago, JayInChicago said:

There is no particular reason to assume Lane made minimum wage. Servers can make a lot more in tips. It's not a glamorous job and is a hard one, but Luke was most likely an amazing boss, which is a goldmine and pretty rare in working class jobs. 

Lane working in a diner while pursuing her music wasn't bad: She was figuring out her life and it was only a step towards her bigger plans. What was horrible was her getting pregnant before she got a chance to fulfill any of her dreams or achieve anything for herself. And it's doubly horrible because she'd been struggling her whole life to get free of her mother, she finally got a chance....and got trapped into motherhood which she didn't want at that time. I don't know how the writers thought Lane getting pregnant so young could be construed as anything but tragic. 

Also, although Lane probably made above minimum wage and Luke was the sort to ensure a good deal with benefits/health insurance etc. the show was clear how tight Lane/Hep Alien were on money. When they first moved in together they were counting pennies as they shopped and their house was in poor condition. (And this is Stars Hollow housing prices). Those financial problems would only get worse when Lane and Zach were saddled with kids, so Lane is probably going to spend the next 18 years scraping by, unable to move anywhere outside of Stars Hollow because it will be too expensive and putting her own career on hold. She has no qualifications, no savings and no opportunity to feasibly pursue her passion. She'll be almost 40 by the time she'd get the chance to properly restart a band long-term. (Getting saddled with babies is hard enough for anyone to manage, let alone someone whose ideal life/career involved touring/living on the road.) She wouldn't even have much chance to pursue other music-orientated careers - writing, teaching, working in the industry - because again, she's in small-town Stars Hollow and that stuff is mostly in cities. Lorelai working at the inn at 16 was lucky enough to find a career she loved and could work up to Inn manager/eventual owner - what's Lane's career trajectory at Luke's? Becoming a chef, something she showed zero interest in ever? 

14 hours ago, clack said:

Think of all the concern and disappointment among family and friends when Rory drops out of Yale. Bright, energetic, ambitious Lane, meanwhile, winds up in a minimum-wage, dead end, low status job (barely one step up from working at McDonald's).

Where is the concern for Lane? Shouldn't Luke be pushing her to do more with her life? Lorelai advising her about night school business classes? Sookie telling her about culinary arts degrees, or even just offering her a job in the kitchen? Rory having a real heart-to-heart talk with her about Lane's prospects?

Lane was based on Helen Pai, one of the Gilmore Girls producers. Not that Lane has to become a TV producer, but what in her life would be an equivalent goal? How would she get there?

It would probably involve going on to higher education, and it certainly would involve leaving Stars Hollow.

Ugh, I hate how there were such wildly different standards for Rory and Lane. For Rory even getting engaged - to a wealthy guy and in a situation when she could pursue her career - was seen as too restricting for her big life plans. But for Lane the writers were all too happy to stick her with twins and trap her in Stars Hollow. (And this is after Rory spent her teenage years benefiting from fancy schools, colleges and opportunities, travelling Europe and having multiple guys pursue her, while Lane was once basically imprisoned in her own home for trying to go on a date. I'm not sure how Lane remained so not-bitter regarding Rory). Lorelai made it clear that - while she was obviously glad to have Rory - she'd never in a million years want early pregnancy for her own daughter. But hey, who cares if Lane's the one whose future withers away? While Lane wasn't the straight-A, genius student, she was bright, hard-working, capable, took initiative and far more resilient than Rory. She should have got the chance to pursue her dreams. 

On 8/25/2016 at 4:37 PM, timimouse said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was tragic, I just don't think it was in keeping with the character. Whilst I didn't see Lane as an academic genius, I did get the impression she would follow a career in music, which would mean leaving Stars Hollow. There's nothing wrong with getting married and having kids at 22, I just didn't see Lane Kim as one to follow that path.

On 8/25/2016 at 3:36 PM, JayInChicago said:

And Lane wasn't really depicted as academically oriented, which honestly I thought was weird because she was smart. I'm not sure what careers Adventist college's degrees lead to either. 

I don't think Lane was totally opposed to doing something academic/going to college, it was just she never got the chance. She was very wistful of Rory's life at Yale and horrified at going to a conservative, Adventist college rather than college itself. She probably would have leapt at the chance to go away to study music somewhere and have a normal college experience. (Like @Meow25 said, I could totally see her loving a small, liberal arts college - she could have got involved with the music culture/clubs/bands, majored in music and met other kindred spirits).  But at home Mrs Kim wouldn't let her and once she left, she wouldn't have the money or resources to do so. 

Also people might disagree on this, but I always felt the icing on the top of Lane's very depressing cake was ending up with Zach. Although he turned out to be surprisingly sweet, Lane always seemed more intelligent and driven than he was - especially as he was characterized as the insensitive, womanizing "dumb muscle" of the group for years. Plus he actively harmed Hep Alien multiple times from spending all their church-touring money without checking with her and losing their chance to record because he got jealous. It felt like the writer's only threw them together because Dave left. And the Dave comparison never helped Zach as Dave was more articulate, sensitive and mature, seemed far more on Lane's level, went to ridiculous lengths to win her and they had an adorable romance. 

Sorry about the long rant, Lane's fate always makes me irrationally angry.  

Edited August 26, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[clack]

If Rory had dropped out of Yale permanently, married Dean, had a child, and if we had left her at the end of S7 working at Luke's for $18,000 a year but hey she's at least publishing freelance articles for the town paper -- I believe that the show itself would have acknowledged that Rory's life has taken a bleak turn.

That's my problem with the Lane story line : the show runners never acknowledge that she ends up (as of S7) in a very unpromising position in life. It's like she's Kirk or something, and not an important character.

[Guest]

I didn't like Lane getting pregnant but Zach getting the opportunity without her didn't bother me. It would have been total plot contrivance for both of them to suddenly have amazing openings and I think he was portrayed as the better musician while she was better at everything else. He was the songwriter, singer, and guitarist. 

[katha]

The plot contrivance of having to keep Lane in SH to keep her on the show IMO limited what they could do with her education-wise. She might have gone to community college after the rift with her mom or something, but once she broke with Mrs Kim there wasn't money or support for a fancy education anymore. She might have applied for scholarships, loans, part-time jobs etc., but all of that would have taken her out of the town and I just don't think the show was invested enough in the character to go to all that trouble in writing an elaborate career path for her. And, this may be my UO, I don't think Lane ever showed much academic ambitions. She was smart and capable, but that doesn't always translate into wanting to go to university. She was interested in music and practiced on her drums and tried to make Hep Alien happen, while at the same time having a steady job with Luke to pay the bills. And yeah, Zach was goofy, but the show did hint that he was the more accomplished musician compared to Lane.

And this is also where class issues come into it: Not everyone has the financial background to make college happen. Once her mother cut her off, Lane's path to higher education would have been much thornier. And even with her mother in the picture, she couldn't choose a college for herself, Mrs Kim chose something for Lane that Lane found stifling and useless. Not everyone has Rory's luxury of being able to apply to any school she wants and having a family that will pay everything for her in her fancy college. The Gilmore girls might have lived in Stars Hollow, but they, particularly Rory, were distanced from the working class/ lower middle class backgrounds many of the other townies came from. Lorelai had made it on her own (in a TV fantasy kinda way...), but even she grew more and more comfortable again with the privileges the elder Gilmores could offer. Rory, OTOH, had a super cushy existence in that aspect and couldn't relate at all to Lane, Dean, Marty, Jess and their various struggles on that front.

[HeySandyStrange]

44 minutes ago, katha said:

The plot contrivance of having to keep Lane in SH to keep her on the show IMO limited what they could do with her education-wise. She might have gone to community college after the rift with her mom or something, but once she broke with Mrs Kim there wasn't money or support for a fancy education anymore. She might have applied for scholarships, loans, part-time jobs etc., but all of that would have taken her out of the town and I just don't think the show was invested enough in the character to go to all that trouble in writing an elaborate career path for her. And, this may be my UO, I don't think Lane ever showed much academic ambitions. She was smart and capable, but that doesn't always translate into wanting to go to university.

I agree that it was realistic for Lane to not want to follow the traditional 4-year college plan, which GG was at times a little too enamored with, but I do think the writers missed an opportunity to show other ways to be successful through Lane's journey. She could've gone to a technical or community college (one that was magically in SH, of course) and within a year been trained in something practical while pursuing her music career. I know, not glamorous or fairytale enough for GG, but I think it would've added to Lane's at times rather thin storyline.

[Kohola3]

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I just don't think the show was invested enough in the character 

I think this is the key phrase.  She served as Rory's best friend and then when Rory went to college she became superfluous.  I don't honestly know why they kept her around at all, not that I didn't love her.  Nothing much would have changed if she and her parents (the incredible invisible Mr. Kim included) had just moved away.

[chessiegal]

I think they kept Lane around so they could easily get in their 3rd subplot in an episode and keep the town of Stars Hollow, which they treated like a character, more easily part of the story. The different story lines going on in every episode is something I really like about GG.

[hippielamb]

On 8/24/2016 at 6:12 AM, Llywela said:

Heck yes. But the stalkery thing wasn't new at that point, it was Jason's style right from the start - he asked Lorelai out, she said no, so he kept bugging her and bugging her (as in, not acknowledging her refusal at all, just acting like her eventual agreement was a fait accompli) until he eventually wore her down and she agreed. It's a tactic we see over and again on TV, a guy stalking a girl into submission, because obviously she doesn't really mean it when she says no so if he keeps trying his persistence and devotion will eventually be recognised and rewarded, and I think we're meant to see it as romantic, but to me it comes across as all kinds of creepy. She said no, dude - respect her wishes and leave her alone! So Jason turned me off right from the start, and although he does have some cute and funny moments, and Lorelai did seem to enjoy the relationship once it started, I could never like him.

Digger's persistence didn't come across as inappropriate to me because in the scene where he calls Lorelai again, she smiles and seems to be enjoying the attention. They had already flirted with each other on two separate occasions. If she wasn't interested she could have shut him down at their first encounter.

I like Digger. It's obvious he wasn't going to be long term for Lorelai but I thought he was charming in a smarmy, quirky way. It was fun seeing two oddballs who are similar yet very different have a relationship. Digger was the perfect guy for Lorelai at that point when she was so focused on building a business. He was the same way. I like that entire plotline, their dating and the elder Gilmores connected to their lives. 

[elang4]

1 minute ago, hippielamb said:

Digger's persistence didn't come across as inappropriate to me because in the scene where he calls Lorelai again, she smiles and seems to be enjoying the attention. They had already flirted with each other on two separate occasions. If she wasn't interested she could have shut him down at their first encounter.

I like Digger. It's obvious he wasn't going to be long term for Lorelai but I thought he was charming in a smarmy, quirky way. It was fun seeing two oddballs who are similar yet very different have a relationship. Digger was the perfect guy for Lorelai at that point when she was so focused on building a business. He was the same way. I like that entire plotline, their dating and the elder Gilmores connected to their lives. 

I have to admit that one of my favourite scenes was when Jason had gotten Richard wifi and Richard was walking all over the house with his laptop. :D The subtle flirting between Jason and Lorelai was genius and I loved how it was only Rory who noticed it. And Emily defending cheeseburgers was hilarious! :D

[hippielamb]

1 minute ago, elang4 said:

I have to admit that one of my favourite scenes was when Jason had gotten Richard wifi and Richard was walking all over the house with his laptop. :D The subtle flirting between Jason and Lorelai was genius and I loved how it was only Rory who noticed it. And Emily defending cheeseburgers was hilarious! :D

Yes, they have a playfulness that was different than she has with Chris. I liked watching him trying to win over Emily to no avail. Lol 

[Meow25]

The first time I watched GG I loved Logan.  Upon rewatch I have moved over to Jess.  I still hate Jess's early scenes, but in S6 at the Gilmore mansion Jess won me over.  

That being said, I still like Logan *after* he decides to grow up and essentially ditch Colin & Finn.  Dean remains (in my UO) the creepiest POS ever.  From S1 all the way through...Dean sucks.  

Jason was my favorite Lorelei boyfriend, but on re-watch I am less "anti-Luke".  I just watched "The Prodigal Daughter", and I HATE April.  What an unfortunate plot contrivance.  So sad.  :(  

I still hate Christopher....what a tool.  

 

[clack]

Of Rory's boyfriends, Jess was the biggest jerk -- but he also had the biggest upside. His jerkiness was a defensive pose -- he saw himself as this cool anti-bourgeois rebel, but he eventually grew out of it. After all, he was still just a kid when he dated Rory.

Dean seemed pretty top of the line as boyfriends go when he was 16, but he didn't age well. Dean is someone who peaks early, Jess peaks later, as an adult.

Logan? I know we were shown some growth, but even in the end there was still a shallowness about him. Could Rory find lasting happiness with a slick, charming businessman?

[Janet Snakehole]

I don't like Paris too much. She has a quick wit, but I can't get past her very competitive nature. People like her grate on me in real life so I don't find her as entertaining as a lot of others do.

Not sure how unpopular/popular this is, but this show is always the most compelling to me when it focuses on the dynamic between Richard, Emily, and Loralei. I actually find episodes with Chilton or townie heavy plots boring.

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Janet Snakehole
Another thought

[junienmomo]

9 hours ago, Janet Snakehole said:

I don't like Paris too much. She has a quick wit, but I can't get past her very competitive nature. People like her grate on me in real life so I don't find her as entertaining as a lot of others do.

Not sure how unpopular/popular this is, but this show is always the most compelling to me when it focuses on the dynamic between Richard, Emily, and Loralei. I actually find episodes with Chilton or townie heavy plots boring.

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

Paris might grow on you. She did on me, and now I appreciate that she had a pretty good character arc in which she actually did learn from her decisions. She committed to Harvard and failed, then had a life coach who did help her get over crap pretty often. She had a deep complicated love relationship with Asher, and changed after his death. Her Yale News meltdown and relationship with Doyle were also part of that.

It doesn't baffle me that stories get debated for a long time after they end. Pride and Prejudice has been debated for hundreds of years, there are still societies for Jane Austen, and the discussion continues.

I think that interesting stories with lots of contradictions and wide open gaps tend to stay around longer than simply good, interesting stories. Many of our debates end up with variations of 'it's simply contradictory' or 'we will never know what the writers meant unless they address it in the revival.' 

Nota bene: I consider P&P to be a pinnacle of literature and storytelling, but GG to be an earworm of television - a story that is compelling enough to be interesting to a large group, but not even close to pinnacles of television like Downton Abbey.

How's that for plunging myself into unpopular opinion world? ;)

[TimetravellingBW]

On 8/27/2016 at 3:26 AM, katha said:

The plot contrivance of having to keep Lane in SH to keep her on the show IMO limited what they could do with her education-wise. She might have gone to community college after the rift with her mom or something, but once she broke with Mrs Kim there wasn't money or support for a fancy education anymore. She might have applied for scholarships, loans, part-time jobs etc., but all of that would have taken her out of the town and I just don't think the show was invested enough in the character to go to all that trouble in writing an elaborate career path for her.

On 8/27/2016 at 7:41 AM, chessiegal said:

I think they kept Lane around so they could easily get in their 3rd subplot in an episode and keep the town of Stars Hollow, which they treated like a character, more easily part of the story. The different story lines going on in every episode is something I really like about GG.

Yup, Lane ended up in an awkward place because she was too big for Stars Hollow, but they weren't going to a) write her out or b) invest in a good, separate storyline for her. (Though as said before, they could have at least had her going to community college or had Hep Alien playing NY gigs at weekends etc. which didn't mean moving her out completely). Instead she was just used as a plot point to connect to Stars Hollow and provide the quirky, townie story when Lorelai/Luke/Rory all got angsty.

It's really the age-old problem of what to do with young characters once they leave high school. Lorelai's friends/supporting characters were easy as they were all based in Stars Hollow (Luke, Sookie, Michel, Jackson etc.) But Rory's contemporaries were difficult post-high school: Paris they could move to Yale with her, minor Chilton characters like Madeline/Louise/Brad could be written off. But SH-based characters were messy: Lane - and by extension Brian and Zach - they had to keep in a rut, and even Dean had similar issues in that the writers had him marry a local girl, drop out of college and stay working in SH to facilitate him staying around for the terrible S4/5 relationship with Rory. Who knows what they would have done with Jess if Milo Ventimiglia had signed on for longer, because Jess-On-The-Road-Town-Outcast staying around SH after high school would make even less sense.

17 hours ago, Meow25 said:

The first time I watched GG I loved Logan.  Upon rewatch I have moved over to Jess.  I still hate Jess's early scenes, but in S6 at the Gilmore mansion Jess won me over.  

That being said, I still like Logan *after* he decides to grow up and essentially ditch Colin & Finn.  Dean remains (in my UO) the creepiest POS ever.  From S1 all the way through...Dean sucks.  

16 hours ago, clack said:

Of Rory's boyfriends, Jess was the biggest jerk -- but he also had the biggest upside. His jerkiness was a defensive pose -- he saw himself as this cool anti-bourgeois rebel, but he eventually grew out of it. After all, he was still just a kid when he dated Rory.

Dean seemed pretty top of the line as boyfriends go when he was 16, but he didn't age well. Dean is someone who peaks early, Jess peaks later, as an adult.

Logan? I know we were shown some growth, but even in the end there was still a shallowness about him. Could Rory find lasting happiness with a slick, charming businessman?

100% all of this. I disliked Jess the first time, but was totally won over by his development in s6 and on rewatching enjoyed him a lot more earlier. (And interestingly on rewatching, I come in with less of a Lorelai/Dean perspective - who is this punk messing things up - and more understanding Jess's perspective and how his background made him so defensive and dysfunctional).

I think one of the reasons Jess is still so popular - despite being a jerk and poor boyfriend when he dated Rory - is that he had the most potential and their relationship was so incomplete. The Dean/Rory relationship was done to death, way past when Rory had outgrown her high school boyfriend and should have moved on and - as said above - when Dean spiralled from a great, sweet first boyfriend to an insecure, dead-end. Logan/Rory got explored decently, but even after he matured just felt too different from Rory. (Their values were so far apart and I just can't see Rory becoming the society/socialite wife who suited his business lifestyle). But Jess was introduced as someone who integrally had a lot of similarities with Rory and could be well-suited (their shared interests/passions, commonality over their backgrounds and his ability to push her out of her comfort zone etc.) but was too much of a mess at the time: They seemed a classic case of wrong timing.

10 hours ago, Janet Snakehole said:

I don't like Paris too much. She has a quick wit, but I can't get past her very competitive nature. People like her grate on me in real life so I don't find her as entertaining as a lot of others do.

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

Paris might grow on you. She did on me, and now I appreciate that she had a pretty good character arc in which she actually did learn from her decisions. She committed to Harvard and failed, then had a life coach who did help her get over crap pretty often. She had a deep complicated love relationship with Asher, and changed after his death. Her Yale News meltdown and relationship with Doyle were also part of that.

It doesn't baffle me that stories get debated for a long time after they end. Pride and Prejudice has been debated for hundreds of years, there are still societies for Jane Austen, and the discussion continues.

I like Paris despite her more jerkish moments, mostly because she always feels real and flawed, especially compared to Rory's charmed life. I can believe when she succeeds because she works so damn hard, but her flaws have consequences: She had difficulties with people at Chilton, she didn't get into Harvard, she drove the Yale Daily News to the ground. I also enjoy her dynamic with Rory (Rory is too often passive but she pushes back against Paris and Paris doesn't put Rory on a pedestal like so many others).

And I think a reason why GG is still discussed and debated is the characters do feel so authentic: Lorelai, Rory, Emily, Richard, Luke, Jess, Paris etc. might frequently be unlikeable but they still feel real, complex and true to life. (I can believe why Lorelai keeps making the same mistake running back to Chris, Rory's sensitivity to criticism is because of her environment, Emily's deep hurt over Lorelai leaving. I get most annoyed at things that are inconsistent with previous characterization - like Rory suddenly liking the LDB). A lot of other shows, I wouldn't bother discussing motivations/development of characters because the writing was shallow, but GG had more depth to it's characters imo. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Smad]

13 hours ago, Janet Snakehole said:

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

 

Speaking only for myself. The reason I'm still discussing shows like GG (and BtVS, X-Files, etc.) is the promise vs reality devide (not sure if that's the right word to use). All of these shows started with great world building, clear cut characters (but with potential to grow, change, grow up) and they had for the most part great writing. Shows that start out this strong promise you a good ride. So when after a few Seasons it all starts to go terribly downhill you hang on in the hopes that it will get better again at some point. After all the show was awesome once so surely with the same people still in charge it can get great again. But then eventually reality will set in and you have to get used to the actual reality. And then you feel the need to still, after years of a show being over, discuss with others the positives and negatives.

I also think a huge part has to do with nostalgia. We are all attached to things depending on what time we grew up in. Me I grew up with the X-Files, Buffy/Angel, GG and even Star Trek and so forth. So for me what I'm most attached to are the shows from the 90's to early 2000's. Just like someone might prefer the 80's or what's on TV now. And shows like GG might also attract newer generations thanks to things like Netflix. So they are kept alive that way and will always be discussed because new people discover them.

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

I get most annoyed at things that are inconsistent with previous characterization - like Rory suddenly liking the LDB).

I don't think that Rory liking the LDB is out of character and this is coming from someone who loathed the LDB and often times didn't like Logan. We saw how Rory's first year at Yale was virtually dateless, so wanting to fit in with a clique wasn't surprising.  Why it was this group, instead of a book club or other academic group, may have seemed out of character, but her introduction to the group was exciting for her. 

[ghoulina]

23 hours ago, clack said:

Dean seemed pretty top of the line as boyfriends go when he was 16, but he didn't age well. Dean is someone who peaks early, Jess peaks later, as an adult.

This is the crux of it for me. Towards the end of the series, where were these guys? Dean was divorced and working at the grocery store. At least he'd moved out of his parents home and was living with Kyle. But he dropped out of school and never really had any other ambitions. My husband works construction and I have no college myself, so I'm not trying to be a snob. But I just don't think that's a good fit for Rory. Jess was going nowhere fast, but then he got his shit together, had a book published, and was working/part owner(?) at small printing press and bookstore. That's a great fit for him and at least a LITTLE ambitious. He wrote a book! Jess found a way to be true to himself and still moderately "successful". Dean just became a total loser, IMO. 

[amensisterfriend]

From the S1 thread:

I know this will propagate an avalanche of reasons why I am wrong but I see no difference between Tristan and Logan.   Both spoiled rich boys thumbing their noses at authority, pulling childish pranks and expecting daddy's lawyers to make it right.  Both thinking "Mary/Ace" will think their antics are charming. A pox on both of them.

Kohola, I'll take it a step further and say that while Logan was usually more mature, thoughtful and kind than Tristan (though that's a REALLY low bar, haha), I actually preferred Rory around Tristan for some bizarre reason :) Maybe it's because S1 was so extremely sweet, bordering on too precious and twee IMO, that Tristan's...Tristan-ness was more of an interesting tone-altering relief to me back in S1 than Logan's presence was in S5-S7. And Tristan brought out this sharp, assertive side of Rory that I actually enjoyed, while she too often seemed the opposite around Logan to me---blander, more unsure, more of a comparatively weak-willed follower who just sort of drifted along. Logan and his dynamic with Rory have always somehow seemed more interesting ideas on paper than they were in reality to me. As I've rambled about elsewhere, the actor's perpetual smirk and line deliveries made him seem smarmy, slick, arrogant and insincere to me even when we were clearly supposed to feel otherwise. I'm very glad that Rory never ended up dating Tristan, but---perhaps in part because they never dated!---I actually like her chemistry with Tristan/CMM more than her chemistry with Logan/MC. 

Then again, you guys know I have the UO that nearly ALL of the GG male characters were too unlikable and problematic for me to root for them as love interests :) (The female characters were obviously profoundly flawed too, often in that excessive exaGGerated GG-esque way, but in general the female characters on this show also had more consistent, salient strengths to at least partially mitigate and soften those flaws, at least to me!) 

[Kohola3]

Quote

As I've rambled about elsewhere, the actor's perpetual smirk and line deliveries made him seem smarmy, slick, arrogant and insincere to me even when we were clearly supposed to feel otherwise

Cheers to that!!.

[clack]

Tristan's smirk was a front. Logan's smirk was soul-deep.

[RachelKM]

I have some genuine fondness for both Tristan and Logan.  Both challenged Rory's biases and preconceived notions about herself and others.  And Tristan gets a good bit of slack from me by virtue of being a kid.

I am glad, however, that Rory never dated Tristan and did not marry Logan.  While Logan challenged Rory, Season 6 and 7 Rory seemed too passive in their relationship.  Other than when she got mad at Logan for wallowing after his business failure, she seemed (as noted above) unsure of herself and sort of a girlfriend-bot around Logan.  I didn't care for it. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by RachelKM

[timimouse]

5 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

...And Tristan brought out this sharp, assertive side of Rory that I actually enjoyed, while she too often seemed the opposite around Logan to me---blander, more unsure, more of a comparatively weak-willed follower who just sort of drifted along.

This was the key point for my preference of Tristan over Logan. Whilst they did appear to have similar personality traits, it was Rory's reaction to them that differed. She matched Tristan with his quips and put him in his place when he dared to dangerously toe the line. And I gathered that's what he liked about her. Logan on the other hand, struck me as the type that enjoyed having a submissive woman - and that's what Rory became around him to keep him. For example, when they got into that fight after he embarrassed Jess at the bar, which ultimately lead to him telling Honour that they broke up, I got the impression that he was more upset that she stood up to him and they had their disagreement in public than he was about her going out with an ex-boyfriend. And then before he went on the LDB trip that nearly killed him he was pissed because she embarrassed him in front of his friends by pointing out all the flaws in their plans.

[katha]

I'd argue that Rory's different reaction to Tristan and Logan was heavily tied to the context of their relationships. IMO, Rory tended towards passivity and sometimes displayed rather unfortunate doormat tendencies with all her boyfriends. It's most noticeable with Logan because she's older and it's manifesting as  problematic permanent behaviour whereas with Dean, part 1, and Jess it could still be excused as teenage inexperience. Arguably Logan was also her most serious and involved long-term relationship, so all of it made more of an impact in viewing experience, including the negative stuff.

Whereas IMO with Tristan, she just wasn't into him. So it was easier to stand up to him and rebuff his bullying (I think that's what it was). Logan didn't pester her against her will, it was a mutual attraction. Which makes a difference as well. And also: Teenage Rory still operated from the safety net of SH, Lorelai etc. and could draw (artificial?) self-confidence and strength from that bubble. Rory in season five was in many ways much more insecure, not so sure of her place in the world anymore and drifting through Yale. In many ways she clung onto Logan for security. He certainly had his many faults and I don't think they were suited long-term, but IMO he was essentially a kind and decent guy and Rory really lucked out there, because someone more manipulative and selfish might have taken advantage of her submissive and passive stance. I also liked MC's acting, he had a certain ease in his demeanour that was pretty rare on GG, tension and hyperactivity usually ruled the day.

[RachelKM]

I agree katha.  I also don't necessarily agree that Logan wanted Rory to be passive.  

Maybe it's because I've only done a recent re-watch of Season 7 - and in fairness, it was my first time through the full season.  I got so annoyed with Season 6, that I only sporadically watched 7 when it aired and never previously attempted to view the season in its entirety.  And I do remember some asinine behavior from Logan in Season 6 (side note, I was not a fan of Jess and recall thinking neither of them came off well when they met).  

Logan didn't always react well at first blush when she challenged him or his behavior, but he generally came around.  In fact, in the instance above, wherein she walked out on him because he was such a jerk and wallowing rather than getting his shit together after his business reversal, he didn't take it well immediately, but who does while still reacting to an emotional blow?  After he had time to regroup, he went to her to talk and apologized and told her he had a plan involving not working for his father anymore (which seemed to bring out the worst in him).

I was not generally a fan of most of the love interests on Gilmore Girls.  Even when I liked them initially, the show managed to do something to make them suck at some point (see Marty being an utter idiot/ass in Season 7, I have the sense Max eventually became a dick too).  My main unpopular opinion is that I actually liked Chris more than any of Lorelai's other pairings - that said, he was definitely flawed.  I tolerated the OTPness of Luke and Lorelai, but I genuinely preferred him as her friend.

Part of the problem was in the characters of Lorelai and Rory themselves.  In relationships, they were frequently written just this side of some combination of Mary Sue and manic pixie dream girls, Rory leaning more towards the Mary Sue end of the spectrum and Lorelai the MPDG.  And the men in their lives seemed to fetishize them as much as love them. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by RachelKM
Typos... and just learned that I've been spelling Lorelai wrong, per the show's spelling of the name.

[TimetravellingBW]

I think context definitely influenced the difference in Rory's assertiveness with Tristan vs Logan, but it comes down to the fact that early Rory was a much stronger character. (Despite being outwardly quieter and meeker). Rewatching early seasons I forgot how independent she was: She stood up to Paris continually, (eg. Refusing to get bullied off The Franklin), was snarky with Madeline and Louise, openly opposed the popular, prestigious Puffs/Francie and was determined to prove Headmaster Charleston wrong rather than slinking back to SHH. That all fits with her treatment of Tristan. 

And yes contextually she had  Lorelais/SH's support from home but most students would still be pretty cowed by so much animosity at a new school. If anything she had less to deal with at Yale compared to the outright bullying at Chilton. I don't know where that inner strength went but she lost it somewhere along the way. 

(Also I'd second the similarity in Logan/Tristan, to the point they probably could have had Logan come back as Tristan himself and just waved it as a change in actor. But then they'd have to confront straight on why Rory had digressed so much in calling him out in high school, to mooning over him in College). 

Edited August 29, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

She was constantly told that rich people are jerky snobs growing up. So she's going to have a chip at least subconsciously on her shoulder going into Chilton. She on some level thought she was better because the world was more black and white to her at the beginning of the show. Rich=bad, working-class= good, once she got to know her grandparents and the world in general a little more she began to soften that stance and be more accepting of people as people. Her insecurities come from the fact that you can't know yourself, not really at sixteen. Especially without being tested in any way by the world. It's easy to be confidant and independent in when you live in a snow globe.

[katha]

7 minutes ago, RoyRogersMcFreely said:

She was constantly told that rich people are jerky snobs growing up. So she's going to have a chip at least subconsciously on her shoulder going into Chilton. She on some level thought she was better because the world was more black and white to her at the beginning of the show. Rich=bad, working-class= good, once she got to know her grandparents and the world in general a little more she began to soften that stance and be more accepting of people as people. Her insecurities come from the fact that you can't know yourself, not really at sixteen. Especially without being tested in any way by the world. It's easy to be confidant and independent in when you live in a snow globe.

In Yale no one cared about Rory Gilmore. That was the ultimate blow. Sure, at Chilton she faced animosity, but soon enough she started getting top grades and became the star of her year (together with Paris). Many of the hostilities she encountered were connected to her being "new girl" and therefore interesting, and later because Paris perceived her as a worthy rival. In Yale she was one of many students who came in with top high school careers, and even though apart from that one course she didn't seem to struggle too badly, she was also probably one among many who got good grades.

And yes, it's easy to be self-confident when there's a clear goal you haven't ever questioned: Getting into Harvard (then Yale). When you haven't ever faced serious failure, haven't ever screwed up and have been very much cushioned from any kind of emotional hurt and insecurity. Rory already starts her "running away" game when she's faced with messy situations in the earlier seasons (Dean break-up, Jess/Dean, conflicts with Lorelai), later as her life becomes less outwardly structured and straight-forward and she has to make decisions on her own this escalates.

[Anela]

On 8/27/2016 at 5:42 PM, Janet Snakehole said:

I don't like Paris too much. She has a quick wit, but I can't get past her very competitive nature. People like her grate on me in real life so I don't find her as entertaining as a lot of others do.

Not sure how unpopular/popular this is, but this show is always the most compelling to me when it focuses on the dynamic between Richard, Emily, and Loralei. I actually find episodes with Chilton or townie heavy plots boring.

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

I think, aside from the fact that the show was so popular when it aired, that it's still discussed so much because of channels like ABC Family, and then Netflix, airing it. I saw it on ABC Family six years ago, I think, during the Summer, but didn't actually watch it until early 2012 (when I decided to start watching with my mother - we were as close as Rory and Lorelai). I know other women who have wondered how they had never seen it before, and binge-watched it on Netflix over the past year. 

[moonb]

Quote

 

Not sure how unpopular/popular this is, but this show is always the most compelling to me when it focuses on the dynamic between Richard, Emily, and Loralei. I actually find episodes with Chilton or townie heavy plots boring.

This is kind of hard for me to articulate and this may not be the right place for this,  but here goes. I like this show, but it kind of baffles me that it still causes this much discussion on boards after all these years, compared to other similar shows of the era. I have been rewatching on Netflix and it's engaging, but I can't figure out why so many people find it so compelling to discuss.

 

I agree with your first sentences. Especially these days. Richard/Emily/Lorelai is SO much more interesting to me now than school or Stars Hollow-focused eps.  When the show was on I was most sympathetic to Lorelai's storylines, and that's less true now. I'm a similar personality to Rory, but even when the show was on I was past the point where I found the school or teenage relationship stuff compelling; that was always the dullest part for me.  But, there is that multi-generational appeal that changes with age. 

If I remember right, Gilmore Girls started as a "family friendly" show, and I wish that phrase had a totally different connotation. Because when you unwrap all the quippy cotton candy sweetness from a lot of the episodes, there's a lot about family stuff that isn't nice or sweet at all. Too bad "family-friendly" has to be sugar-coated where the media is concerned.

[Qoass]

Well, after reading several posts, I guess my unpopular opinion is that it would have been perfectly fine with me if Rory and/or Lorelei ended up with no significant other at all.  They both have perfectly healthy lives without some guy distracting them from their friends, their careers, etc.

[shron17]

Re: similarities between Tristan and Logan, I agree, except that the one significant difference was Logan was in line for a prime spot in his family's newspaper empire.  Naturally since Rory was in college and planning to be a journalist this made him more attractive.  I'm not saying Rory dated him because of that, but it seemed to make her more interested and more motivated to get to know him.  Also, Logan was carefully written as just moral enough to be acceptable to someone like Rory.  Up until about season 6 I was expecting her to find out Logan was doing something she found unacceptable (cheating on and/or selling exams?  plagiarizing papers?).  

Edited August 30, 2016 by shron17

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, Qoass said:

Well, after reading several posts, I guess my unpopular opinion is that it would have been perfectly fine with me if Rory and/or Lorelei ended up with no significant other at all.  They both have perfectly healthy lives without some guy distracting them from their friends, their careers, etc.

Except that they both want significant others. Lorelai wanted it the whole series, and Rory started feeling the need in the Yale years. Granted, Rory at series end would have gone out on her own without problem, but she did love Logan. 

[Anela]

6 hours ago, Qoass said:

Well, after reading several posts, I guess my unpopular opinion is that it would have been perfectly fine with me if Rory and/or Lorelei ended up with no significant other at all.  They both have perfectly healthy lives without some guy distracting them from their friends, their careers, etc.

That was one thing that bothered me with Paris: when, after their weekend in Stars Hollow, both getting drunk with Lane, over men, Paris blurted out, "Look at us, we're happy! We have boyfriends!" I know she crushed on Tristan, and was amazed when Jamie asked her out (and was happy to let a few things go, once she went out with him), but it still sounded so odd to me. At least they had her trying to make a decision without Doyle in the mix, at the end of the series. She was freaked out that she was trying to make a huge life decision, and including  a man in that - basing her future on that. 

[Lady Calypso]

So, I'm working my way through my binge watching of the show and am on early season 3, so I might change my mind at some point. But here might be a very unpopular opinion: I am very, very, very tired of Lorelai. Her quirky behaviour seems almost childish and I'm still kind of waiting for her to grow up and be less of a best friend girl and more of a mature adult. Now, I love that she has a successful career and has a tight relationship with her daughter, but Lorelai is horrible at reading a room most of the time and she can be quite inappropriate. And I don't really blame Emily for being snippy with her and trying to get her to change half the time. 

I find that Rory needs Emily as another woman role model in her life to counteract Lorelai's best friends routine. I know Lorelai's very loving and all, and I still like her sometimes, but she's very tiring and exhausting and I'm not fond with most of her relationships because Lorelai can be very, very selfish. 

Maybe it's just a few episodes thing here, but I've started to put my attention elsewhere on various Lorelai scenes whenever she goes into a ramble. 

[junienmomo]

15 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, I'm working my way through my binge watching of the show and am on early season 3, so I might change my mind at some point. But here might be a very unpopular opinion: I am very, very, very tired of Lorelai. Her quirky behaviour seems almost childish and I'm still kind of waiting for her to grow up and be less of a best friend girl and more of a mature adult. Now, I love that she has a successful career and has a tight relationship with her daughter, but Lorelai is horrible at reading a room most of the time and she can be quite inappropriate. And I don't really blame Emily for being snippy with her and trying to get her to change half the time. 

I find that Rory needs Emily as another woman role model in her life to counteract Lorelai's best friends routine. I know Lorelai's very loving and all, and I still like her sometimes, but she's very tiring and exhausting and I'm not fond with most of her relationships because Lorelai can be very, very selfish. 

Maybe it's just a few episodes thing here, but I've started to put my attention elsewhere on various Lorelai scenes whenever she goes into a ramble. 

I share the feeling, often using other words. Her unwillingness to face the consequences of her own actions can be strong sometimes. In particular in the seasons 1-3 that you've been watching, she shows quite childish behavior when communicating with her mother, but Emily can be a pill, and I wouldn't object to Lorelai telling her off as an adult pretty often.

On the excuses side, Lorelai voluntarily gave up her teenage years to care for Rory and now that Rory is sixteen plus, Lorelai's taking some time to enjoy life, but some of that enjoyment comes from a mindset of a teenager.