One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[txhorns79]

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But then Richard turned around and alienated his only daughter over a business deal to save his own neck without any thought or care of how it would affect her.  Even Emily, who certainly had a mountain of issues with Lorelai, reacted to her husband's actions with disbelief and left because of them.

In fairness, it was suggested that Richard would be financially ruined by the lawsuit, and I think he was doing what he believed was best to protect himself and Emily.  I don't think he set out to hurt Lorelai by turning on Jason.  It was a byproduct of the situation. 

[JayInChicago]

I know not the difference between Colin and Finn nor Olivia and ... ??? The other one.

i very vaguely remember a Robert but to me that whole LDB crew is not really a part of "my" Gilmore Girls. I don't want to get into spoilers but maybe I'll move this over to the spoiler post :)

also this is such a love hate show for me right now. I've rewatched so often I can quote some parts.

[Kohola3]

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I know not the difference between Colin and Finn nor Olivia and ... ??? The other one.

Ditto.  And I couldn't care less about any of them.  Just vacuous characters thrown in for totally inane plot fillers.

[hippielamb]

19 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Didn't she also call Charleston "Il Duce" to his face?  That's probably not the best thing to do if you want your kid to continue attending the school.

Lol I forgot about that one. Headmaster Charleston has probably seen it all from parents. I did like that he told Lorelai he wouldn't tolerate it again. Speaking of that character, I really like him. Rewatching season 3 reminded me that we don't see him much after Rory goes to university. Her professors at Yale seem unforgettable by comparison. 

 

4 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

 You guys, I LOVE Digger. He's such a smart, amusing mess in such a perfectly GG-esque way, and while I get that he may not have much romantic/physical chemistry with Lorelai, I totally wish they'd found some excuse to keep him around for longer even if it wasn't as a love interest. And while I get that it's 'just business' or whatever and that Richard had to look out for his own interests, I can't help but think that what he did to Jason at the end of S4 is pretty terrible. I'm actually not sure I ever like Richard less than I do at the end of S4. 

Doyle annoys me. I wish he didn't, and I want to love Paris/Doyle, but I just don't really enjoy their scenes. 

 

I really like Digger though it may be because I like the actor so much. I do wonder how he thought he could maintain a relationship with Lorelai while suing her dad. Richard showed his cold blooded business persona in that storyline. We've mostly seen him as a doting grandpa and distant father to the girls, maybe that's why it's a surprise. I can't help it, I love Richard. It's easy to be more sympathetic to characters we love. 

I don't get Doyle either. Maybe it's residue from his Buffy days. I do like that Paris found someone who loves and supports her. Finally. All of the support system that Rory has, Paris doesn't. I like their relationship for that reason, but on his own I find Doyle boring. 

56 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Jason and his father had issues that precipitated Jason contacting Richard.  Richard was as eager to screw Floyd as Jason was.  Richard could have said no.  At that point, no other family members were involved.

But then Richard turned around and alienated his only daughter over a business deal to save his own neck without any thought or care of how it would affect her.  Even Emily, who certainly had a mountain of issues with Lorelai, reacted to her husband's actions with disbelief and left because of them.

I have noticed in the rewatch how angry Emily gets with Richard when he does anything that could possibly alienate Lorelai. The audience gets to see that but Lorelai rarely does. 

[shron17]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

Jason and his father had issues that precipitated Jason contacting Richard.  Richard was as eager to screw Floyd as Jason was.  Richard could have said no.  At that point, no other family members were involved.

But then Richard turned around and alienated his only daughter over a business deal to save his own neck without any thought or care of how it would affect her.  Even Emily, who certainly had a mountain of issues with Lorelai, reacted to her husband's actions with disbelief and left because of them.

While it's true Richard could have and should have turned Jason down, I don't blame him for taking Floyd's deal to save himself when it was Jason who initiated the whole thing.  Floyd threatened to sue knowing it could endanger Richard's pension which he'd  used as collateral and Richard really had no choice unless he wanted to risk their financial future.  Emily was mad first that Richard joined with Jason for revenge, again when she discovered he'd risked his pension without telling her, and then about alienating Lorelai.  I think Emily left because of multiple things, most of them having to do with putting business first.  I also think Lorelai broke up with Jason because when he insisted on suing her father she realized he was just like Richard.

Edited June 5, 2016 by shron17

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

I really like Digger though it may be because I like the actor so much. 

I was just thinking that. I really enjoy watching Eigeman. He's also an actor who, like Todd Lowe, before I got to know him, I didn't always recognise him in all of his roles. I remember IMDBing him when I watches Last Days of Disco and being shocked that he was Jason. (Though I was less shocked that he was Malcolm in the Middle's horrible teacher.)

Edited June 5, 2016 by AllyB

[SparedTurkey]

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There was, however, the Teen Aged Boy's First Love Belief that made him hope like crazy that she would see the light and return to her true love. Unrequited love is so painful and also so common among that set.

I'm sorry - that sentence if anything makes me happy for the Jess storyline. In no way was Dean Rory's 'true' love (what an awful concept) and I think it is that sense of entitlement that makes many posters here not like Dean for being the embodiment of that idea. I'm glad Rory never went back to Dean permanently (in the same way i am happy Joey never went back to Dawson) because what is 'ideal' isn't necessarily best.

[Kohola3]

I never said Dean was Rory's one true love. I said that he had the normal reaction of males at that age - the girl he likes is the only one in the universe and being rejected for another is painful.  He hopes she will come back.  To someone in high school, every relationship is high drama.

[Meow25]

Upon GG rewatch: 

*I hate Luke.  I hate Luke/Lorelei together.  Lorelei deserves someone who can laugh.  

*I hate Christopher too.  

*I loved Digger.  

*I love Logan, and I think his story could have been so deep & profound.  I love him with Rory, and there were SO many ways they could have gone with Logan/Rory, but they just wrote them so shallowly.  His life is very interesting, so parallel with Lorelei.  

*I LOATHE Jess...angry boy is boring, but I loathe Dean even more.  He's a creepy creeper.  

Those round out my unpopular opinions.  

[Aloeonatable]

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*I love Logan, and I think his story could have been so deep & profound.  I love him with Rory, and there were SO many ways they could have gone with Logan/Rory, but they just wrote them so shallowly.  His life is very interesting, so parallel with Lorelei.  

I found him more like Christopher, than Lorelai. Lorelai broke away from her parents to become her own person at the tender age of 17. Logan couldn't do it at 23. 

I actually don't like comparing Rory's boyfriends because she was with each of them at a different time in her (and their) lives. At 21/22 IMO, Jess was quite a bit more mature than Logan was at a year older.

[elang4]

Not sure if this has been said before on her but I really liked Tristan. I genuinely believe he liked Rory and I think Rory was warming up to him near the end because she actually seemed kind of sad he was leaving. I think if they had been given a chance, they could have been a good couple. :)

[Mulva]

On Friday, June 03, 2016 at 7:23 PM, timimouse said:

If this opinion is unpopular, then make room at your table for me. I've never been Jess' biggest fan, but I was even less impressed with how Luke dealt with him. While Lorelai's advice may have been unsolicited, she wasn't wrong. Parenthood is not easy. Most people have 9 months to prepare and even then are still overwhelmed. Yet they also have the opportunity to learn as time goes by. Luke was thrown into it with a very troubled youth. Under normal circumstances, it takes a village. He needed a whole city with Jess, but was too damn proud to admit that. When we meet Jess later with his bookstore etc. and he was thanking Luke for all he did, I found myself rolling my eyes. Yes it was kind of him to take Jess in, but I don't think Luke guided him and contributed positively to his growth. Probably just another adversity to overcome.

Set another place at the table for me.  Jess was a mixed up, troubled kid who needed professional help and a lot of guidance, but Luke seemed to think that Rory could and should fix him.

[junienmomo]

Re: Various statements about Luke parenting Jess badly:

This is vastly underestimating the impact of a parent showing up day after day, feeding, clothing, reprimanding, standing up for your kid, of which there are a large number of examples for the Luke and Jess relationship. 

A very broken Jess came to Luke at age 17. Lorelai could not have handled him, regardless of a couple of pieces of good advice, because she didn't have Luke's ability to be the kind of father Jess needed.

Consider the times that Luke was strict or lectured Jess loudly. This was a kid without boundaries and Luke gave Jess boundaries as well as giving the town boundaries of their own. He fought for the kid. He fought the kid's rebellion.

Luke showed up every single day for Jess. So did Lorelai for Rory. Each of them made mistakes in parenting their kid, but in both cases, the kid was better for having had that person as a parental figure. 

[txhorns79]

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A very broken Jess came to Luke at age 17. Lorelai could not have handled him, regardless of a couple of pieces of good advice, because she didn't have Luke's ability to be the kind of father Jess needed.

I agree.  She had no idea how to handle someone like Jess.  The first time he gave her real attitude, when her schtick didn't work, she basically gave up and told Luke he was much more screwed up than Luke realized. 

[s72450]

I've been doing a slow rewatch in anticipation of the Netflix revival and stumbled upon a few views, possibly unpopular.

My biggest complaint is that sex ruined Rory Gilmore. I find that I love the show up until Season Five where Rory begins sexual relationships with first Dean and then Logan. I blame this partially on Alexis and her very non sexual chemistry with most anybody. The series just never recovers after season five, and Rory becomes a horribly needy character that is absolutely desperate for Logan. I cannot stand Logan, his character had very few moments where I don't want to hurl a shoe at the television. I sometimes think TPTB wanted Tristan 2.0 and it just never worked for me. The way Rory changed to be the type of woman Logan would want just sickens me. I like that Lorelei never fully accepted Logan, as a mother, I think she obviously knew that he was not the right fit for her daughter. I sincerely hope Logan is not a romantic interest for Rory in the revival. I cannot stomach that. 

My other complaint is that I hated the music on the show. It was early hipster in my opinion. Lane's taste in music was awful and any storyline dealing with the band just bored me to tears. I only liked Gil, I thought he was hilarious. I also never bought that Lorelei would be into all this alt rock music. Lorelei was trendy and a pop culture fanatic so I would assume she'd be a Top 40 fan. Anytime music is used on the show, I just cringe. The worst b far was in the season four spring break episode and the two minute showcase of that God awful band at the club. The lead singer hits a high note and even my dog runs away from the room. I love that episode but I fast forward through that garbage every time.

[hippielamb]

On 6/13/2016 at 3:15 PM, Mulva said:

Set another place at the table for me.  Jess was a mixed up, troubled kid who needed professional help and a lot of guidance, but Luke seemed to think that Rory could and should fix him.

I would've liked to see how Luke would have reacted if some Jess type has his sights set on April. If he crashed her car, then his guardian had the nerve to ask April to tutor the troublemaker without consulting Luke first. And encouraged a relationship between them. 

9 minutes ago, s72450 said:

My other complaint is that I hated the music on the show. It was early hipster in my opinion. Lane's taste in music was awful and any storyline dealing with the band just bored me to tears. I only liked Gil, I thought he was hilarious. I also never bought that Lorelei would be into all this alt rock music. Lorelei was trendy and a pop culture fanatic so I would assume she'd be a Top 40 fan. Anytime music is used on the show, I just cringe. The worst b far was in the season four spring break episode and the two minute showcase of that God awful band at the club. The lead singer hits a high note and even my dog runs away from the room. I love that episode but I fast forward through that garbage every time.

I never cared for the music snobbery on this show. I agree Lorelai would be a top 40 fan. As someone who grew up in the same time, it makes sense that she liked the bangles, Duran Duran, and other 80's groups but some of the later music choices don't mesh with that. 

[Smad]

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I would've liked to see how Luke would have reacted if some Jess type has his sights set on April. If he crashed her car, then his guardian had the nerve to ask April to tutor the troublemaker without consulting Luke first. And encouraged a relationship between them.

IMO there were nothing but writer screw ups in that whole storyline. From the way schools were portrayed like they wouldn't have called Jess guardian the minute he started missing school. One minute Luke doesn't leave R/J long alone in the apartment for anything major to happen, runs after them when they use kid code or tells Jess to watch it because he is concerned for Rory. The next minute they have him completely oblivious to the trouble Jess is by saying things like 'that woud be great' when Lorelai asks if he noticed anything going on between R/J. It just doesn't work to have Luke switch views every epiosde. He's either completely aware or completely oblivious but it can't be both. He's either protective of Rory or he isn't but it can't be both.

[clack]

Luke walked around with a big red reset button on his chest. Every episode we get a fresh Luke, with attributes and a history at odds with the Luke we met in previous episodes.

[FictionLover]

8 hours ago, s72450 said:

I've been doing a slow rewatch in anticipation of the Netflix revival and stumbled upon a few views, possibly unpopular.

My biggest complaint is that sex ruined Rory Gilmore. I find that I love the show up until Season Five where Rory begins sexual relationships with first Dean and then Logan. I blame this partially on Alexis and her very non sexual chemistry with most anybody. The series just never recovers after season five, and Rory becomes a horribly needy character that is absolutely desperate for Logan. I cannot stand Logan, his character had very few moments where I don't want to hurl a shoe at the television. I sometimes think TPTB wanted Tristan 2.0 and it just never worked for me. The way Rory changed to be the type of woman Logan would want just sickens me. I like that Lorelei never fully accepted Logan, as a mother, I think she obviously knew that he was not the right fit for her daughter. I sincerely hope Logan is not a romantic interest for Rory in the revival. I cannot stomach that. 

My other complaint is that I hated the music on the show. It was early hipster in my opinion. Lane's taste in music was awful and any storyline dealing with the band just bored me to tears. I only liked Gil, I thought he was hilarious. I also never bought that Lorelei would be into all this alt rock music. Lorelei was trendy and a pop culture fanatic so I would assume she'd be a Top 40 fan. Anytime music is used on the show, I just cringe. The worst b far was in the season four spring break episode and the two minute showcase of that God awful band at the club. The lead singer hits a high note and even my dog runs away from the room. I love that episode but I fast forward through that garbage every time.

But I love what Sam Phillips did for the musical scoring. 

[Leonana]

8 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I would've liked to see how Luke would have reacted if some Jess type has his sights set on April. If he crashed her car, then his guardian had the nerve to ask April to tutor the troublemaker without consulting Luke first. And encouraged a relationship between them. 

Ha, good point!

[Llywela]

15 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I would've liked to see how Luke would have reacted if some Jess type has his sights set on April. If he crashed her car, then his guardian had the nerve to ask April to tutor the troublemaker without consulting Luke first. And encouraged a relationship between them. 

In fairness to Luke, he asked Rory to tutor Jess before the car crash - it was the tutoring that led to the car crash.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

In fairness to Luke, he asked Rory to tutor Jess before the car crash - it was the tutoring that led to the car crash.

Also, everyone seems to overlook the fact that Jess wouldn't have even been driving Rory's car if she hadn't handed him the keys.  It's not like he stole it, or even demanded to drive.

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

Also, everyone seems to overlook the fact that Jess wouldn't have even been driving Rory's car if she hadn't handed him the keys.  It's not like he stole it, or even demanded to drive.

Luke and Rory understood. One of the nicer moments between them. 

Rory even told Jess to drive down the street where they had the accident. He would have gone back to the diner. 

[solotrek]

14 hours ago, FictionLover said:

My other complaint is that I hated the music on the show. It was early hipster in my opinion. Lane's taste in music was awful and any storyline dealing with the band just bored me to tears.

Zach's complaining about how "this isn't rock and roll" or "that isn't rock and roll" made their music snobbery much worse. But it was pretty bad, from Jess to Lane to the Gilmore Girls. Unless the person is listening to hate rock or something, why judge people by their musical preferences?

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The worst b far was in the season four spring break episode and the two minute showcase of that God awful band at the club

I love The Shins. Probably not their best song or performance. But those songs wouldn't work well in a spring break club atmosphere.

 

Regardless of if Rory told Jess to drive more or whatever, accidents happen. Lorelai's reasoning that Dean wouldn't have let the accident happen because he loves Rory was absurd. My mom has been in an accident with me in the car, it doesn't mean she doesn't love me. It's because it was an accident. Unless Jess was driving drunk or threatening Rory to dump Dean for him or he'd crash the car, Jess really isn't to blame. The way everyone hyped it up was just extremely over the top. A 17 year old gets into a minor car accident because he chose to swerve and miss a cat or dog or whatever? It's pretty normal. My 20 some year old friends don't listen to the rules of the road and also swerve and brake suddenly to miss things like birds and squirrels. Not because they're rebellious hellions, but because they don't have it in them to kill another creature (though it's pretty bad for all the other cars on the road and infinitely more dangerous).

Edited June 16, 2016 by solotrek

[hippielamb]

13 hours ago, Llywela said:

In fairness to Luke, he asked Rory to tutor Jess before the car crash - it was the tutoring that led to the car crash.

Luke still asked Rory to do it without clearing it with Lorelai. My point was how would he have reacted if another parent did that him. Thought his smart, college bound daughter would be a good influence on some Jess-like kid. I think Luke would tell the parent in no uncertain terms that it would not be up to April to fix the punk. I don't blame him for not thinking of how it would effect Rory, he was Jess' guardian after all. I think he would have a very different attitude if he were on the other side with the daughter he's trying to keep on the right path.

 

8 hours ago, shron17 said:

Also, everyone seems to overlook the fact that Jess wouldn't have even been driving Rory's car if she hadn't handed him the keys.  It's not like he stole it, or even demanded to drive.

Jess is still responsible for the crash. Accidents happen but he was driving. Years ago I had a friend accidently drive my car on the railroad tracks. It was one of those wrong place/time things but she was still responsible for the accident.

[solotrek]

48 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

 

Jess is still responsible for the crash. Accidents happen but he was driving. Years ago I had a friend accidently drive my car on the railroad tracks. It was one of those wrong place/time things but she was still responsible for the accident.

There's making someone take responsibility  for an accident and then there's demonizing someone for an accident. The way the Stars Hollow townies put it made it seem like Jess had her at gunpoint and went on a maniacal joy ride with Rory as a hostage.

[shron17]

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Jess is still responsible for the crash. Accidents happen but he was driving. Years ago I had a friend accidently drive my car on the railroad tracks. It was one of those wrong place/time things but she was still responsible for the accident.

Yes, of course.  But in my opinion, kids should be held responsible for letting other people drive their car.  The parent still has to deal with repairs and insurance.  In this case the car wasn't worth much and Lorelai didn't have to replace it, but that's not always the case. Rory also put Jess in a very vulnerable position by handing him her keys given that Lorelai and most of the town were more than ready and willing to blame him for anything that went wrong.

As for Luke, I do get your point, but like you said he was Jess's guardian in this case and didn't know what else to do.  And though he asked Rory to tutor Jess I doubt he thought they'd go out for ice cream.  He probably should have asked Lorelai first, but I think he only had the best of intentions.

Edited June 17, 2016 by shron17

[txhorns79]

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The way the Stars Hollow townies put it made it seem like Jess had her at gunpoint and went on a maniacal joy ride with Rory as a hostage.

First off, I laughed at the image of Jess holding Rory at gunpoint and going on a maniacal joy ride in her car.  Second, yes, the reaction where Jess was treated like a step above Charles Manson, for something where Rory shared a lot of the blame was ridiculous.  But heck, Lorelai and Chris camping out in Rory's room over a broken arm (she's 17!, not 5) was eye rolling.  

[JaggedLilPill]

I guess Rory lived in a bubble when she was a kid. Never fell down or got injured. 

Lorelai was so OTT in "Teach Me Tonight" it's not even funny. It was a minor fracture. 

Usually I can let most of Lorelai's obnoxious tendencies go because LG made Lorelai very endearing to me. And while I was never a Jess fan, this exchange with Luke is cringe worthy.

"That little punk nephew of yours almost killed my kid tonight."

"It was an accident. Accidents happen."

"Not with my kid in the car they don't."

So, in the world according to Lorelai, anyone who has an accident with Rory in the car has a death wish to kill her? Geez. What if it had been Emily or Richard or even Christopher?

Unless he was driving recklessly at 90 MPH or under the influence, it was an accident. Plain and simple. 

I would cut her slack if she had major injuries, but chill, girl. It's not that serious.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Just rewatched Christopher Returns, and Lorelai mentions Chris once crashed his car while she and he were joyriding. 

More than a bit hypocritical of her to lose her shit over Jess, but at least she's consistent. Hypocrisy was one of her worst qualities. 

[Guest]

An accident that Jess had while trying to avoid killing baby animals- you would have thought he was aiming for them by the town's reaction.

[katha]

I always sorta liked what they did with SH and Jess, because it struck me as realistic. This can be the other side of small towns like that, it's not all whimsy and fun, it can be controlling and judgemental and borderline creepy as well. Demonizing Jess and treating Rory like a porcelain doll was pretty disturbing behaviour, you also saw how deeply unhappy and upset it made Rory. Everyone was denying her agency and refused to grant her that she was a person who made decisions and not a brainless doll.

[readster]

2 hours ago, katha said:

I always sorta liked what they did with SH and Jess, because it struck me as realistic. This can be the other side of small towns like that, it's not all whimsy and fun, it can be controlling and judgemental and borderline creepy as well. Demonizing Jess and treating Rory like a porcelain doll was pretty disturbing behaviour, you also saw how deeply unhappy and upset it made Rory. Everyone was denying her agency and refused to grant her that she was a person who made decisions and not a brainless doll.

Oh I agree and I knew a town like that and eventually people who they treated like that either moved out or the townies who started it died. In fact, I find that the most realistic portray of Stars Hollow, they sadly were that cliche town that made snap judgments or had very narrow views of things. However, it got to the point that they were complete morons from how they let Taylor run the town to their 101 various festivals that would have bankrupted other small towns. 

[Taryn74]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:08 AM, solotrek said:

A 17 year old gets into a minor car accident because he chose to swerve and miss a cat or dog or whatever? It's pretty normal. My 20 some year old friends don't listen to the rules of the road and also swerve and brake suddenly to miss things like birds and squirrels. Not because they're rebellious hellions, but because they don't have it in them to kill another creature (though it's pretty bad for all the other cars on the road and infinitely more dangerous).

 

I still remember the day I was driving home from work and came around a blind curve at the top of a big hill, and a car was stopped in the middle of the road with the teenage driver OUTSIDE of the vehicle (also in the middle of the road) making sure she hadn't hit a dog that had run out in front of her.  Thankfully we lived in a small town and there wasn't any other traffic in either direction because I had to cross the other lane and hit the ditch to keep from hitting her and/or her car.  Teenagers can do some really STUPID stuff.

 

Quote

Just rewatched Christopher Returns, and Lorelai mentions Chris once crashed his car while she and he were joyriding. 

 

Ha ha, I thought about that one too.  Guess Chris didn't care enough about YOU to be careful, Lor.  

I get that Lorelai flipped out and lost her head, but she'd had enough time to cool down by the time she found Luke out in the street.  She was completely in the wrong there.

[clack]

Lorelai would not have been as upset if it had been Dean driving. She saw Jess as a loser, a bad influence on Rory, and the accident allowed her to vent anti-Jess feelings she had been holding in.

Lorelai's reaction wasn't only about the accident, it was also (mainly?) about Rory dating a guy that Lorelai couldn't stand.

[LeafontheWind]

5 minutes ago, clack said:

Lorelai would not have been as upset if it had been Dean driving. She saw Jess as a loser, a bad influence on Rory, and the accident allowed her to vent anti-Jess feelings she had been holding in.

Lorelai's reaction wasn't only about the accident, it was also (mainly?) about Rory dating a guy that Lorelai couldn't stand.

But Rory was still with Dean at this point, so maybe it was about Lorelai's fear that Rory might begin dating a boy that she thought was a bad influence on her. Or maybe it was about her realizing that she couldn't protect Rory all the time, especially once Rory started making choices that were at odds with what Lorelai wanted her to do.

[katha]

Lorelai freaked and was insufferable in "Teach Me Tonight", but in general IMO she did her best not to let her personal hatred of Jess cloud her behaviour too much. Perhaps because she was self-aware enough to know that her dislike wasn't always driven by the best of motives and also because she was an adult and had way more power than him and using that power against him would have been somewhat disturbing. She stayed reasonably civil for the most part and also stayed away. Jess and Lorelai had a mutual dislike for each other and at a certain point I think both did the best they could not to let it escalate for Rory's sake.

[hippielamb]

On 6/18/2016 at 4:35 PM, LeafontheWind said:

But Rory was still with Dean at this point, so maybe it was about Lorelai's fear that Rory might begin dating a boy that she thought was a bad influence on her. Or maybe it was about her realizing that she couldn't protect Rory all the time, especially once Rory started making choices that were at odds with what Lorelai wanted her to do.

I agree. At a certain point a parent needs to learn they can no longer protect their child, no matter how much they want to. I think Lorelai's reaction in Teach Me Tonight and the following episodes was primal, she wants to protect Rory and it scares her that she no longer can. She's firmly in mom mode and can't look at the situation as Rory's friend.

To look at it deeper, this show has a theme of daughters making choices their mothers don't agree with and how that effects their relationship. Rory's attraction to Jess was her first step in doing something that Lorelai did not approve of. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, hippielamb said:

To look at it deeper, this show has a theme of daughters making choices their mothers don't agree with and how that effects their relationship. Rory's attraction to Jess was her first step in doing something that Lorelai did not approve of. 

 

I agree.  In fact, it kind of dawned on me the other day that even though Lorelai took her fear and anger out on Luke in TMT, it was really Rory she was angry at.  Rory was the one she had warned about Jess, repeatedly, and Rory was the one who got close to him anyway.  But Lorelai couldn't admit that - even to herself - so Luke unfortunately got caught in the crossfire.

I was trying to find this conversation the other day and couldn't remember what episode it was from, I finally remembered it's A'T A'T:

 

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LORELAI: If you think he’s a decent guy, I have to respect your judgment.
RORY: Thank you.
LORELAI: But I’m asking you to be careful.
RORY: I will.
LORELAI: Really careful.
RORY: I will.
LORELAI: ‘Boy in the plastic bubble’ kind of careful.
RORY: I promise.

[amensisterfriend]

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*I hate Luke.  I hate Luke/Lorelei together.  Lorelei deserves someone who can laugh.  

I watched a few screwball comedies this weekend and thought about how AS-P, a self-professed fan of that genre, took the concept of bickering opposites whose constant annoyance is supposed to be synonymous with 'chemistry' too far, especially given that those movies generally end *before* we have to see what the couple is like in a day-to-day relationship while AS-P tried (and, for me, failed) to sell us on them being in love, compatible, able to make each other happy, etc. 

While I'm not personally a fan of Scott Patterson's acting, I really think the character was even more egregiously screwed by the absurdly exaGGerated writing than nearly any other. I know I keep harping on how Luke seemed like a sharper, more layered, compelling, (comparatively) witty, smart, relatable character in S1, but...well, to me he really was, especially if one ignores the 'puts Dean in a headlock' nonsense! And back then the writers seemed to understand that just because he was moody, negative etc. didn't mean he had to be so extremely, depressingly joyless and humorless all the time, refuse to enjoy any aspect of life or have any interest in anything, yell constantly at his customers for no reason other than to remind us that he's such a boor, etc.  He even had a few nicely articulated sociopolitical views in S1, he smiled a little more, and he had the wit, intellect and inclination to keep up far better with that famous Gilmore-esque banter rather than just seeming baffled and irritated by it. I can't tell you guys how much I would have loved if they had allowed that original version of Luke to grow rather than to regress emotionally, intellectually etc. with every passing season! 

I feel like they were going for a 'Luke never feels good enough' theme throughout the series: He didn't directly ask out Lorelai or tell her about his feelings for fear of being rejected, he reacted so dramatically to that nonsense at Emily and Richard's vow renewal because it confirmed his long held belief that he wasn't refined/charming/sophisticated/etc. enough for their daughter (especially in comparison to wealthy, charming, sociable Christopher, intellectual Max, etc.), he sabotaged things with Rachel because deep down he didn't believe she'd stick around for him anyway so why not hasten the process along, he wasn't up front about April because deep down he worried Lorelai would use this life-changing news as a reason not to be with him anymore, he stayed with Nicole long after it was obvious to everyone that it wasn't working because splitting up would confirm his view of himself as a failure who couldn't make relationships work, especially with a "classy" well-educated professional like Nicole, etc. He sabotaged relationships with Lorelai and even arguably Rachel, Nicole, Jess etc. because he figured he was incapable of being close to people anyway, and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

This is probably a very charitable interpretation of the writing for Luke---maybe it was less of a consistent character theme than just a random mess of whatever conflicts they came up with the day before shooting the next episode. But I do think a lot of his issues fall under this 'self-sabotaging, low self-esteem underneath his bluster' umbrella, which parallels Lorelai's own tendency to self-sabotage due to impulsively saying and doing too MUCH rather than saying and doing too little like Luke does. If only the execution of these ideas hadn't been quite so terrible :) 

Edited June 20, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Leonana]

21 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

This is probably a very charitable interpretation of the writing for Luke---maybe it was less of a consistent character theme than just a random mess of whatever conflicts they came up with the day before shooting the next episode. But I do think a lot of his issues fall under this 'self-sabotaging, low self-esteem underneath his bluster' umbrella, which parallels Lorelai's own tendency to self-sabotage due to impulsively saying and doing too MUCH rather than saying and doing too little like Luke does. If only the execution of these ideas hadn't been quite so terrible :) 

I think it was a combination of the two. I fell in love with Luke during the first season, and stubbornly held on throughout the rest of the run of the show. He did seem to get back to that guy during the last episodes of S7.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Leonana

[Kohola3]

Season 1 Luke was so different.  My favorite episode was Forgiveness and Stuff. He was supportive of not only Lorelai but Emily as well.  I wish we had seen him develop in that vein the rest of the series.

[Smad]

IMO the large problem is ASP in all areas of the show. Actors aren't allowed to improvise or change dialogue. No is allowed any input in terms of character development, changing characters to fit the story and zero continuity. The longer the show went on the more ASP relied on character ticks that either were exaggerated to the extreme depending on the story of an episode or it became their main, one note shtick. In S1 almost all of the characters were probably at their most layered. Lorelai and Richard probably stayed the most true to themselves over the course of the show when it comes to basic personality. Emily and Luke for example were extremely changed sometimes dramatically.

[amensisterfriend]

Season 1 Luke was so different.... I wish we had seen him develop in that vein the rest of the series.

I know, right?! I just love that many Luke fans and non-fans can often unite on this---he was vastly more appealing at the beginning of the series, and it's incredibly frustrating to contemplate what could have been if they had continued evolving THAT version of Luke throughout the series. Actually, almost every GG character was arguably at their best to me in S1 other than Beginning of Series Paris and, in my possibly unpopular opinion, Lorelai, whose immaturity, vanity etc. was too overemphasized in S1. I also think the L/L chemistry was BY FAR its best in S1, for various reasons that include how much sharper, layered and more likable Luke was allowed to be as an individual character. The scenes where he tells Lorelai about his dad in That Damn Donna Reed and where he brings hot beverages to the reenactors in Love War and Snow despite his annoyance with them and resistance to automatically following traditions/rituals in general* remain among my favorites of the series. 

*---Luke wasn't so much just a pointlessly cranky killjoy through much of S1 as a more skeptical, independent thinker---and that aversion to going along with the norm and with what's expected was actually something important that Early Luke had in common with Lorelai. (I'm always looking for them to have certain things in common underneath their surface differences!) 

Thanks to you guys, I'm recording the S1 GG episodes airing today despite having seen them a million or so times :) It's too cutesy and heavyhanded at many points and I doubt I can ever warm up to Dean, Max or the Gilmores' relationships with them, but as I get more disillusioned with aspects of later seasons, there's something to be said for the cozy warmth and charm of S1 and the relative layers and lovability of most of the characters and their relationships with one another! It seems to be inching higher up my list of favorite seasons as time passes. And I can't help but think that S1 Rory would be justifiably contemptuous of the way she turned out in later seasons :)

Another UO: The more I hear debates about which of Rory's boyfriends was best, the more I hope she doesn't end up with any of them. I love the chemistry and connection between Rory and Jess and often enjoy Jess as a character, but he too was a victim of obnoxiously exaGGerated writing, and honestly, his overly hipster/indie/punk thing irks me more as times goes on---not to mention the fact that he wasn't actually a good boyfriend. The objections to Dean and Logan are already well documented, so I won't bother reiterating them. It's not like Rory is some perfect 'prize' to be won, but I was glad that she ended the series single and would love to see her end the revival single---or at least with another guy who's more likable to me than Dean, Jess and Logan, which for me is a fairly low bar :)  

[hippielamb]

2 hours ago, amensisterfriend said:

Thanks to you guys, I'm recording the S1 GG episodes airing today despite having seen them a million or so times :) It's too cutesy and heavyhanded at many points and I doubt I can ever warm up to Dean, Max or the Gilmores' relationships with them, but as I get more disillusioned with aspects of later seasons, there's something to be said for the cozy warmth and charm of S1 and the relative layers and lovability of most of the characters and their relationships with one another! It seems to be inching higher up my list of favorite seasons as time passes. And I can't help but think that S1 Rory would be justifiably contemptuous of the way she turned out in later seasons :)

Another UO: The more I hear debates about which of Rory's boyfriends was best, the more I hope she doesn't end up with any of them. I love the chemistry and connection between Rory and Jess and often enjoy Jess as a character, but he too was a victim of obnoxiously exaGGerated writing, and honestly, his overly hipster/indie/punk thing irks me more as times goes on---not to mention the fact that he wasn't actually a good boyfriend. The objections to Dean and Logan are already well documented, so I won't bother reiterating them. It's not like Rory is some perfect 'prize' to be won, but I was glad that she ended the series single and would love to see her end the revival single---or at least with another guy who's more likable to me than Dean, Jess and Logan, which for me is a fairly low bar :)  

:) I love season 1. It's my curl up with a blanket and drink hot cocoa kind of tv. It just makes me happy. I started watching at the beginning of season 2 and the sweet coziness of those first few episodes made me fall in love with the series. It wasn't until much later that I saw the first season and realized it was all like that. I love season 1 Lorelai though I see how she may grate on others. She just seemed so young. I believed she was a young mom who was doing her best to raise her kid but hadn't figured out her own life yet. I could relate to that a lot when I was 29.

It's funny when people discuss which "team" they are on for the boyfriends because I realized I'm not on any team. I like Dean best of all but I don't think for a minute that he could make Rory happy in her thirties. It was pretty clear that she had outgrown him by the time their affair happened. Jess I can't stand but Rory seems so moony eyed around him, it's obvious she is into him. Logan I like but I am not sure he's good for Rory. Ideally, she should have a combo of all their good qualities. A sweet guy who respects her and understands the unique relationship with her mom (like Dean), a guy who shares her interests and she is attracted to (like Jess), a guy who challenges her and encourages her to come out of her safety zone (like Logan). That's a tall order. Imagine if you could combine all the good qualities of your past loves...

[amensisterfriend]

---As some of you know, my mom is very ill and I'm in desperate need of distraction :) So I thought it might be fun to think of some of our favorite moments/attributes of the least popular characters. For example, Dean is a pretty unpopular character, but I'm sure the fine minds here can come up with some of his good points and best scenes...right?! :) I'd love to hear what people come up with! 

[Leonana]

8 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

---As some of you know, my mom is very ill and I'm in desperate need of distraction :) So I thought it might be fun to think of some of our favorite moments/attributes of the least popular characters. For example, Dean is a pretty unpopular character, but I'm sure the fine minds here can come up with some of his good points and best scenes...right?! :) I'd love to hear what people come up with! 

I'm sorry to hear about your mom.

Regarding Dean - he has good chemistry with Lorelai? Sorry, couldn't resist! Let me see, he built Rory a car. That seemed pretty special.

[amensisterfriend]

Quote

Regarding Dean - he has good chemistry with Lorelai? Sorry, couldn't resist!

Ha! Thanks to you guys, that's one of those things I can now never NOT see even when I wish I could :) I do notice while watching these S1 episodes  Dean was initially presented as more of a comparatively 'with it' city kid, so while I never found him especially smart or interesting or even in possession of a personality, it's funny that he soon became the ultimate 'townie' in various unflattering ways. But I'll bravely take my own challenge ;) Let's see, good points about Dean: He's tall and would therefore automatically annoy and intimidate Rune! He chooses to have salad along with his pizza, which shows a concern for health and nutrition that the Gilmores and most teenagers I know lack :) (Yeah, I know, I'm really reaching here!) He gets that Rory will spend countless hours in bookstores. He initially liked her based on how passionate she seemed about her book. You never have to worry about him pulling a disappearing act---he'll always call and show up when he says he will, and sometimes a whole lot more often :) (Seriously, he was the most dependable of Rory's boyfriends, though that's a low bar!) He seemed to have a strong work ethic. He perceptively and hilariously called Rory out on her need to be liked by everyone in Let the Games Begin. He seemed to like more than just one or two people on the planet and at least tried to get along with them (unlike Jess) but wasn't a party animal who seemed to thrive on a ton of adoration, attention  and superficial interactions (unlike Logan). And, finally, I never doubted that he did truly care about Rory even when I didn't always love his way of showing it. Wow...a whole paragraph praising one of the (or at least one of my) least popular characters...I feel so accomplished ;)  

Edited June 21, 2016 by amensisterfriend

[Leonana]

I watched an interview with ASP at the ATX Festival last summer. She said that Dean was written to be the perfect boyfriend. Also, she always wanted Rory to lose her virginity to Dean. Ugh on that one, lol.

[JayInChicago]

I'm rewatching extremely slowly and just got to the dance marathon episode ... "They shoot Gilmores, don't they" right? Anyway, Dean breaking up with Rory was a highlight of his time on GG to me. I rewatched just that part three times. I still don't understand the line he addresses to Shane, but besides that, his soliloquy was loud, necessary, and perfect. Rory was being a little shit. I also like in the next episode (I believe) when Rory visits him at the window and he stands up to her.