S01.E03: Never Say Never To Always

[Guest]

Drug dealer Art Gladner is found murdered, and the chief suspect is Shafe's snitch, Mike Vickery. Hodiak agrees to help Shafe exonerate Vickery. In exchange, Shafe takes rookie Charmain Tully undercover into the Manson Family to find out where Manson has Emma. They succeed, but not without consequences, especially for Charmain.

 

 

[Primetimer]

Your commentator is not, and is not a crackpot for thinking there was a better way to get the real word in S01E03.

Read the story

[Dave in Chicago]

When I watched on Hulu this morning, they definitely had swear words blanked out. At first I thought it was the product of a pilot meant for premium cable but episode 2 did the same thing.

Not the most inexplicable choice this show is making, though. They almost got me to Google "was Charles Manson bisexual?" but I stopped myself.

[Andy G]

"if NBC can't get away with it"

SouthLAnd and American Crime included bleeped "fucks" and other adult language while on NBC.

[shapeshifter]

...They almost got me to Google "was Charles Manson bisexual?" but I stopped myself.

Inspired to start a Manson Family Media thread: forums.previously.tv/topic/27111-manson-family-media/?p=1195497 Edited May 29, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Free]

"if NBC can't get away with it"

SouthLAnd and American Crime included bleeped "fucks" and other adult language while on NBC.

 

I think American Crime is on ABC, but you're right they do bleeps on some shows.

[Jamoche]

Supernatural bleeped in the episode where they were being followed around by a Ghost Hunters-style film crew, lampshading that the way the boys really talked was probably a lot more realistic that what we usually saw.

[bookworm]

Interesting that Charlie's primary girl is Sadie, and he's the one who he trusts to go with Emma to the record producer's house.  Then, she's the one who is most concerned with Emma leaving until Charlie reassures her.  I believe that one of the other girls was Katie.  Those are two of the girls who killed on Charlie's command, later.  It has been interesting to watch Charlie establish his control over the girls using brainwashing techniques, including giving and withholding affection and approval.

 

My teenage daughter is finding Aquarius dull semi-history and wonders how these girls are so stupid that they would follow some platitude-spouting guru who just wants them to exchange parental control for his control.  I'm half cheering because this tells me my lovely daughter is probably not a candidate for some high school lothario, and half thinking to myself that she and her circle of friends are really lucky.

[sinkwriter]

Thank goodness your daughter has a solid foundation and a smart, strong head on her shoulders, bookworm! 

 

But I do think it's not stupidity that some of those girls followed Manson. I think part of it is being entranced by his diatribes about society. If the girls didn't have families who cared about them or even noticed that they were gone, if they felt deeply unheard, I could see how someone like Manson might swoop in and sway their thoughts, by giving them exactly what they need when they need it. Like you said, he's a brainwasher, and he gives and withholds that which they want the most - affection and approval. He's a true cult leader. That's why he's disturbing. But there are people out there who would probably follow him to this day, because he offers some language they're looking for.

 

That's why I find him so scary. We can say we can't see it happening now, because it was different 'back then', but... with the right words, someone manipulative enough (and good enough at it) could build quite a following. And now it might be even easier to have a broader reach, given the social media capabilities. What was contained within a small group in L.A. in the 60's could have grown much bigger in the hands of social media.

 

I just read a little history on wiki, and was disturbed all over again. I'd forgotten how bad it was, the things they did. I mean, I knew it was bad, but I'd forgotten just how extreme their violence was.

 

The dude is horrific.

[sinkwriter]

Interesting in this episode:

 

The hints that Charmain did something extreme in order to stay undercover. I appreciate that she "made a choice," but... yikes. That's beyond dedication to the job. I feel the need to tell her to tread a little more carefully. (I do like how she stood up to that chauvinistic detective, though. Good for her.)  Honestly, though, I don't know how they'd go undercover in an "anything goes" setting like that and be able to avoid any of it, from sex to drugs to whatever else Charles Manson cooks up in the moment. It would be a tough, tough situation to stay completely "clean" in, not without raising major questions.

 

Interesting that Hodiak has such a huge issue with his cop partner getting together with his ex and then turns around and has an affair with his former flame who happens to be married as well. I don't mind that he no longer trusts his partner and doesn't want to work with him, but the hypocrisy of him then having an affair with a married woman himself is what annoys me.

I liked that they showed Manson as so caught up in his own ego head trip that he can't see his choices as a musician are ridiculous and amateurish. The engineer trying to point out how the outdoor noise would affect the quality of the sound... *chuckling*

Edited May 30, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Linderhill]

Not much of a recap for this episode. Frankly, I didn't miss the word at all.

[stonehaven]

It didn't seem to creep me out this time..maybe more a weird character study at this point...

Again, the music references were what caught me...Green Onions was huge in '64..and I love that song but does every TV epsiode set in the 60's have to use that song? I hope Booker T. makes some serious bank with the use of that song...

..and one other song reference, I swear the version of "Sunshine Superman" was NOT the original..and the vocal was a Donovan sound alike..the vocal inflections were different than the radio version...

I might watch more but it's approaching snark-level worthy at this point...

[Jesse]

Not much of a recap for this episode. 

 

Because this is not a recap, tho.

 

Suits! I was just last night trying to talk about the USA show where they say "shit" all the time, and couldn't remember it's name.

[reggiejax]

Loved seeing Clare Carey as the murder victim's wife, Lucille. I know she has been acting since she was Kelly on Coach, but it was all in stuff I did not watch. In any event, time seems to have Marg Helgenberger-ized her by a good percentage, and I like. And it seems as if she will stick around to tangle with Detective Hodiak, so I look forward to seeing her again.

As for the use of tame euphemisms rather than the proper epithets, I can live with it. It could be worse, they could dub in words no on would use ever. I doubt anyone has ever resorted to calling someone a melon farmer. Certainly never heard anyone called a Mickey ficky. I heard that one years ago when the networks aired Do the Right Thing.

Edited May 31, 2015 by reggiejax

[lovinbob]

Not the most inexplicable choice this show is making, though. They almost got me to Google "was Charles Manson bisexual?" but I stopped myself.

Manson lived in prison for a huge part of his life, even before the murders. I'm pretty sure I've read that he had both male and female partners, certainly in prison. Using sex as a tool to exert his power and control wouldn't surprise me at all.

[bookworm]

Thank goodness your daughter has a solid foundation and a smart, strong head on her shoulders, bookworm! 

 

But I do think it's not stupidity that some of those girls followed Manson. I think part of it is being entranced by his diatribes about society. If the girls didn't have families who cared about them or even noticed that they were gone, if they felt deeply unheard, I could see how someone like Manson might swoop in and sway their thoughts, by giving them exactly what they need when they need it. Like you said, he's a brainwasher, and he gives and withholds that which they want the most - affection and approval. He's a true cult leader. That's why he's disturbing. But there are people out there who would probably follow him to this day, because he offers some language they're looking for.

 

That's why I find him so scary. 

 

Yes, she's an awesome young lady and I am blessed to have her in my life.

 

The stupid comment was from my teen; I agree with you, and we went on to discuss, how lucky she and her friends are that they don't lack for support and approval in their lives.  We talked about how many people who get caught up in this type of situation are, as you have said, not cared for, unheard and unnoticed.  He provides all these things and then once they feel accepted and loved he starts withholding as a means of control

 

It is very scary.  Watching some of the things that flow across my daughter's Tumblr dash shows how a very persuasive and charismatic individual can influence people online, not even needing to be present in the flesh.

[sinkwriter]

I love that you had a discussion with her about all of it. That's fantastic.   :)

[TattleTeeny]

Manson lived in prison for a huge part of his life, even before the murders. I'm pretty sure I've read that he had both male and female partners, certainly in prison. Using sex as a tool to exert his power and control wouldn't surprise me at all.

I think he also had some sexual assault charges on his record, and some were against men--not that that necessarily means he is technically bisexual as opposed to simply a violent person, obviously.  

[Milburn Stone]

Manson lived in prison for a huge part of his life, even before the murders. I'm pretty sure I've read that he had both male and female partners, certainly in prison. Using sex as a tool to exert his power and control wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

Question: In real life,

did he use sex or other means as a tool for blackmailing high-powered people into setting him up with connections in the music biz, as the show depicts? Or did anything come out regarding any sort of connection between him and high-powered folks?

 

Spoiler tagged because I'm not 100% sure that these show elements were contained in Episode 3. 99.5% sure, but not 100. I've watched up through Episode 5.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[reggiejax]

Question: In real life,  Spoiler

 

 

Since you are asking about real life, I don't think it can be considered a spoiler. But I will speak generally just to be safe.

 

To answer the question, sex was a tool Manson used to manipulate people, but it was not done in the way it is shown on Aquarias. At least not with people in what they would have called the "straight world". Meaning people like Lawyer Dad. Manson had no such connections. And he certainly did not know any secrets.

 

As far as the music industry goes, Manson used his girls to attract music industry types, but since we are talking about Southern California in the late 60's, there was nothing special about that. The only thing Charlie could offer that was different in that regard was that his women were, to put it lightly, up for anything. And I mean anything. Sex was an entry point with music industry types, but Charlie had to use the old Manson charm on people as well. And he had to amp up his guru philosophizing.

 

In any case, blackmail was not on the Manson Family's list of special skills.

[Milburn Stone]

Thanks, reggiejax. I suspected as much. Luckily I don't think it will interfere too much with my enjoyment of the show. :)

[thuganomics85]

Interesting that they already have Shafe and Chairmain going to the hideout and even meeting Charlie face-to-face.  I figured they would wait on that, but I guess not.  I guess the question now is, if or when, Hodiak finally meets Mr. Manson.

 

Sucks though that Chairman apparently did sleep with that henchman guy, even if she was the one to make the decision to do so.  But I guess she felt she really needed to do that, in order to get in with Charlie's group.  I wonder if her finally snapping and snarking back at Cutler/Hodiak's former partner, is showing that she is going to be different compared to the past episodes.

 

I found myself liking Gethin Anthony's performance more in this episode.  I could see that Charlie that can charm and get people to follow him, but has that underlining menace and creepiness, that makes him a danger, and frustrating that no one can see it.  That said, I'm really not that surprised he pulled it off.  With all the turmoil going on, I can see why people would gravitate to him and his message, and ignore the warning signs.  Especially those who are younger.  And, I still don't think it's that far from impossible now.  Really, today, I think if current celebs like Benedict Cumberbatch or Tom Hiddelston, ever gave up their gigs to form creepy cults, membership would be in the hundreds.  Thousands even.

 

Not exactly a good episode for Hodiak, with it revealing he hit his ex-wife in the past (it's possible it was only once and he was drunk, but still not good), and then sleeping with his other currently married ex too, despite being pissy over the who Cutler and his ex-wife thing.  Then again, her husband slept with Freaking Charlie Manson, so it's not like anyone really has higher ground here, I guess.

[shapeshifter]

IRL, Michaela McManus, who plays Grace Karn, is 31, and David Duchovny is 54. Since Emma is 17, and I think we can assume Grace was not 14 when Emma was born, McManus is playing older--let's say she's supposed to be 38, because many women back then had their first babies at 21. Duchovny has his hair dyed brown, so how old is Sam Hodiak supposed to be? Did they say whether Grace and Sam met in high school? If so, he could be at most 4 years older, or 42. It would make more sense if they met in college after he was in the war, and so he was maybe 6 years older, or 44.

...Sucks though that Chairman apparently did sleep with that henchman guy, even if she was the one to make the decision to do so. But I guess she felt she really needed to do that, in order to get in with Charlie's group...

Is that the norm for undercover female agents today? Or is it a refection of the times?

...Not exactly a good episode for Hodiak, with it revealing he hit his ex-wife in the past (it's possible it was only once and he was drunk, but still not good...

We've seen him refuse alcohol a couple of times; I don't recall if we've seen him drink. Is he an AA member or just "on the wagon"? Edited June 4, 2015 by shapeshifter

[helenamonster]

At first I thought it would be reveled that Charmain hadn't actually slept with the biker guy, but I'm kind of disheartened at the fact that she probably did. I do like that they're focusing on gender roles within the police force, because that seems like something a lot of other shows would overlook, and just have Charmain paling around with the other cops as though they viewed her as an equal. Tbh, it seems the only reason she has a job is because they need someone to pat down the female suspects. I'm hoping for some kind of a win for her in the end.

 

Ok, so we've already met Sadie and Katie...I'd have to look up when the other more notable members joined the family, but I'm wondering how many of them will show up this season. The girl who plays Katie looks like a young Sally Field. I'm glad they're not hitting us over the head with "these ladies are gonna be murdering people in a couple years" anvils.

 

For a fleeting second, right before Sam and Grace had sex, I wondered if Emma might be his, but the timeline doesn't seem to fit. She's 16, and I think Sam and Grace were together in high school, and it was mentioned by Opal in this episode that he fought in WWII. I think what's throwing me off is how young Michaela McManus is.

[miles2go]

I'm watching this the old fashioned way, as it's broadcast -- I feel a bit late to the party! I'll bet everyone else has seen the whole series already.

 

Liked this episode pretty well; the pacing was much better this time around. Miscellaneous thoughts:

 

Emma's father is a spineless creep.

 

Cutler is a bad cop, possibly in both senses of the word.  And he should have told his partner he was having an affair with his ex-wife.

 

Figured Hodiak and Grace Karn would have a fling -- can't say I blame her too much, given who she's married to.

 

I get the feeling Charmaine Tully is going to really kick some ass before the series is over.  And I hope one of those asses belongs to the biker dude.

 

In regards to the use of "ball" instead of "fuck" (and, by the way, did we really need a seven paragraph article on that topic?) : "ball" is not out of place for the era; the f-word just wasn't used as frequently back then.  (although, I admit, the biker dude would probably say "fuck")

[shapeshifter]

I'm watching this the old fashioned way, as it's broadcast -- I feel a bit late to the party! I'll bet everyone else has seen the whole series already....

Just fashionably late, IMO, but, yeah, it looks like not too many are just watching it on NBC live. This past week a lot of shows were on hiatus, so it was perfect for binging, but I'm just one episode ahead.

ETA: The episodes are only going to be on the NBC website for 4 weeks, so those without Hulu might want to catch up by then. Is that the 18th or the 25th?

...In regards to the use of "ball" instead of "fuck" (and, by the way, did we really need a seven paragraph article on that topic?) : "ball" is not out of place for the era; the f-word just wasn't used as frequently back then. (although, I admit, the biker dude would probably say "fuck")

Exactly. I concur. "Ball" was more of a hip term than a euphemism.

And speaking from the place of I Was There, I appreciated Grace asking if there were places like that everywhere "now" and Sam's reply that there were.

But I wonder if viewers Who Were Not There are going to think that every such group had a man (or men) manipulating women into quasi prostitution in the name of free love, because, based on my participant-observer observations (similar to how Charmain and Schafe see things), it was a non-linear continuum of norms, with the Manson Family (led by an experienced pimp) at the far end of things. At the opposite end would be matriarchal and/or sexually abstinent groups and those supporting themselves selling products they made (arts and crafts, food, etc.).

When Charmain says "I made a choice," she really didn't have a lot of options. Kudos for the actress telling us that without words.

--The same when Emma and Sadie took the sound engineer's hands at Charlie's command. So kudos to director Nelson McCormick.

Edited June 5, 2015 by shapeshifter

[St. Claire]

(I do like how [Charmain] stood up to that chauvinistic detective, though. Good for her.)

 

I want to find a way to work the phrase "felonious ball huggers" into conversation.

[Scootman]

I really like Charmaine, and I'm telling my self that she didn't do "it" with Sleazy Rider. Maybe a quick tug or something.

 

Not that familiar with the actress, but She's quite good.

[shapeshifter]

I really like Charmaine, and I'm telling my self that she didn't do "it" with Sleazy Rider. Maybe a quick tug or something.

I assumed she did more, but I think you may be right since when Manson asked how she did, Sleazy said she needed to learn a thing or two from Sadie. I do prefer to think that she is letting Shafe think the worst because it will make her look like she's willing to go even deeper undercover than he does--especially since on their first outing she called him out for smoking dope and she panicked at having to go off with Sleazy.

[Mama No Life]

I thought Sleazy Rider actually said that he couldn't have sex but she could still <muted>.  I assumed she gave him a bj. 

 

I don't think Hodiak was upset with the affair but rather that his partner lied to him for months.  He has a real disdain for his ex-wife, lol.

 

I have come to the realization that I will watch DD have sex with anyone.  :/

[Emily Thrace]

Not exactly a good episode for Hodiak, with it revealing he hit his ex-wife in the past (it's possible it was only once and he was drunk, but still not good)

Given that he acted like he was used to Opal hitting him when she lashed out at the station I'm more inclined to believe it was self defense. He wouldn't be the first guy to hit back after getting hit more than once by his wife. If she attacked him and he fought back to protect himself I'm not sure I blame him for that.  Hodiak's no angel but he doesn't seem to fit the profile of an abuser. He's an adrenaline junkie and probably an alcoholic but that doesn't always translate to abusive. He seem to like chaos more than control for one. He also made no excuses when Opal laid it out to his partner abusers can always to justify their behavior. True unless we get a flashback to that particular moment we won't know for sure but I still trust Hodiak more than I do Opal.

[helenamonster]

I thought Michaela McManus really sold the devastation when Grace talked to that 15-year-old at the compound. Not only was her daughter supposed to be in a place like that, but there were mothers in the world who were allowing their children to be in a place like that.

 

However, I did have to lol at the girl being all "I have note from my mom, everything's ok" like she was on an eighth-grade field trip to the art museum.

[miles2go]

I thought Sleazy Rider actually said that he couldn't have sex but she could still <muted>.  I assumed she gave him a bj.

 

 I had assumed the same thing, then wondered if I was a pervert for thinking so.  I hope she didn't catch anything nasty from him.

[conetconet]

 

However, I did have to lol at the girl being all "I have note from my mom, everything's ok" like she was on an eighth-grade field trip to the art museum.

That note thing actually happened IRL. Only it was Angela Lansbury's daughter who carried the note. It is really weird how the Family hovered at the edges of the entertainment business.

[shapeshifter]

However, I did have to lol at the girl being all "I have note from my mom, everything's ok" like she was on an eighth-grade field trip to the art museum.

That note thing actually happened IRL. Only it was Angela Lansbury's daughter who carried the note. It is really weird how the Family hovered at the edges of the entertainment business.

So it was it a real note from her mom? I wondered if it was something she and/or Manson or the other girls fabricated for police raids. Either way, I thought it was sad.

helenamonster, did you also think the girl had written her own note like kids do for excused absences at school when they are cutting class to go hang out with friends (not serial killers)?

Right after the girl hugged Grace, Grace freaked out and wanted to leave. That struck me as odd since it didn't seem they had verified that Emma wasn't there. I wasn't sure if it was bad editing in an otherwise high quality show, or if I didn't understand what her motivation was.

Edited June 6, 2015 by shapeshifter

[conetconet]

So it was it a real note from her mom? I wondered if it was something she and/or Manson or the other girls fabricated for police raids. Either way, I thought it was sad. helenamonster, did you also think the girl had written her own note like kids do for excused absences at school when they are cutting class to go hang out with friends (not serial killers)?

Ed Sanders, who wrote a great book about The Family right after the murders, originally reported the note story without attributing it. Angela Lansbury later confirmed that her daughter DiDi was traveling with The Family off and on prior to and that DiDi had a note explaining that she had Her mom's permission.

Lansbury soon moved her family to Ireland for awhile to get her kids disengaged from the creepier elements of the Hollywood scene.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Loved seeing Clare Carey as the murder victim's wife, Lucille. I know she has been acting since she was Kelly on Coach, but it was all in stuff I did not watch. In any event, time seems to have Marg Helgenberger-ized her by a good percentage, and I like. And it seems as if she will stick around to tangle with Detective Hodiak, so I look forward to seeing her again.

As for the use of tame euphemisms rather than the proper epithets, I can live with it. It could be worse, they could dub in words no on would use ever. I doubt anyone has ever resorted to calling someone a melon farmer. Certainly never heard anyone called a Mickey ficky. I heard that one years ago when the networks aired Do the Right Thing.

 

Wow. Never heard those before O_O. I think I can guess the second one though lol.

I want to find a way to work the phrase "felonious ball huggers" into conversation.

 

Me too! I heard that line recently and it cracked me up XD.

[Milburn Stone]

I thought Michaela McManus really sold the devastation when Grace talked to that 15-year-old at the compound. Not only was her daughter supposed to be in a place like that, but there were mothers in the world who were allowing their children to be in a place like that.

 

I'm experiencing some of Grace's devastation when I read about Angela Lansbury's note of permission. 

 

Maybe starring in Mame made her go too far in the "Open a New Window" direction.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[Quilt Fairy]

I found myself liking Gethin Anthony's performance more in this episode.  I could see that Charlie that can charm and get people to follow him, but has that underlining menace and creepiness, that makes him a danger, and frustrating that no one can see it.

I can't get into him. He doesn't have the Charlie Manson 'scary eyes' that Steve Railsback did so well in Helter Skelter.

 

I've only watched the 3 episodes that aired, and so far I'm FFing through almost every scene that doesn't have David Dukovny in lt.

 

I dislike the mix of fact and fiction in this show. I wish they had made the bad guy a Manson-like person, not Manson himself.

[Texasmom1970]

I am still on the fence about this show. Okay when David Duchovny and the other police officers are on. When they show Manson and all his followers I catch myself not paying attention. Not a good sign!

[helenamonster]

I'd never heard that about Angela Lansbury. So was the note real or did her daughter forge it?

 

helenamonster, did you also think the girl had written her own note like kids do for excused absences at school when they are cutting class to go hang out with friends (not serial killers)?

Right after the girl hugged Grace, Grace freaked out and wanted to leave. That struck me as odd since it didn't seem they had verified that Emma wasn't there. I wasn't sure if it was bad editing in an otherwise high quality show, or if I didn't understand what her motivation was.

 

I wasn't quite sure, but I don't think it really mattered. I think the point of the scene (besides dropping in a hint about the Angela Lansbury thing) was for Grace to get so freaked out wondering how many other girls like her daughter were living in places like this that she had to get out. I was a little confused by her sudden decision to leave, but Emma wasn't there and there was no guarantee that she would come back.

[conetconet]

I'd never heard that about Angela Lansbury. So was the note real or did her daughter forge it?

Per Sanders, the note was real. He says The Family was generally neat, clean and orderly during 1967-mid 68, and that seemed to work in their favor. Lansbury's stepson says The Family sometimes came by their house to pick DiDi up. There were other Family members whose parents gave their approval for them to hang out with Charlie, like Ruth Ann Moorehouse and Dianne Lake.

Angela Lansbury said later she didn't fully understand and appreciate the signs of serious drug abuse from her daughter and son.

A lot of today's vigiliance and protection of children has its roots in Tate LaBianca.

[shapeshifter]

...Angela Lansbury said later she didn't fully understand and appreciate the signs of serious drug abuse from her daughter and son.

A lot of today's vigiliance and protection of children has its roots in Tate LaBianca.

And yet parents still miss the signs--perhaps more often than not.

[Tabasco Cat]

A lot of today's vigiliance and protection of children has its roots in Tate LaBianca.

 

You're gonna have to point to a study or scholarly article - of which there are innumerable choices - to convince me that that is true. There are any number of bad things that have occurred over time to get us to the state we're in today. I don't know how you can point to this one crazed cult and say it all started there.

[pasdetrois]

The poor casting and acting are keeping this series from being great. Emma's mother looks too young, the Manson portrayal is weak (Steve Railsback nailed it way back when), and everybody looks like they are playing dress-up in 70s clothing and hair.

 

Once scorned by "real" actors, TV now routinely gives us skilled A list actors sharing scenes with less accomplished (cheaper) talent. It makes for a very unbalanced show. Whether one likes a seasoned actor or not (I'm lukewarm on DD because he seems to play the same smug guy repeatedly), there's no denying the talent on the screen. At this point I'm watching for him.

 

Charmaine would have had it very tough. The wide-open misogyny and sexism in the 70s as women poured into the workplace were persistent and often threatening. She probably had to make a deal with the devil - give a BJ to the creep in order to remain undercover and also earn the respect from her peers. Who would have been kind of dismayed on her behalf, but not really. And who might throw the incident back in her face some day, and disrespect her for doing it.

 

It is interesting to remember all the gurus, communes and counter-culture charlatans that were out there. Young people who were born in the 40s and 50s went from buttoned-down, repressive traditional families to radically different lifestyle choices. There were houses in every neighborhood where drugs were plentiful and all kinds of transient people wandered in and out. There were usually guitars and earnest music-making (grin). In most cases these were fairly benign scenes, but sometimes not. In my own small southern town, there was a hippie guy who hung around college kids, offering drugs and claiming to have relationships with musicians in Muscle Shoals. He brutally attacked two students he had lured to a supposed musicians' jam session, killing one of them. So even though we all rolled our eyes at our parents' concerns, those violent weirdos were out there, taking advantage of the cultural shift.

Edited June 7, 2015 by pasdetrois

[shapeshifter]

The poor casting and acting are keeping this series from being great. Emma's mother looks too young, the Manson portrayal is weak (Steve Railsback nailed it way back when), and everybody looks like they are playing dress-up in 70s clothing and hair...

I'm okay with most of the casting and acting (if McManus was even 5 years older than she is, it would be better) but the hair! Duchovny's buzz cut is way too long/high! And Grace's hair is too much like a Manson devotee's; I saw Ginger on Gilligan's Island this morning and finally realized what they were going for with Grace: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ea/9b/47/ea9b4731c98cc66ad3ac5f0726562d4d.jpg A bit more height, teasing, and spray and it would look authentic; as it is, it looks like it's from an unknown time. I guess the stylist for the show is young and/or not trained in retro looks. Plus, no way would Grace have bare fingernails. As late as the 90s my father criticized my bare nails as not being "nice" enough. Colored, pointy nails would be a subtle way to emphasize the difference between the generations. Too bad they're missing this stuff. The hippie guys' beards should be longer. Maybe it was different in LA, but back east, the business men would wear hats when outside.

ETA:

...I guess the question now is, if or when, Hodiak finally meets Mr. Manson...

thugo, I really appreciate your recaps in these threads as they help me remember what happened in a particular episode and help me avoid accidentally making spoilery comments. As binge releases become more common, I imagine listing plot points at the top of episode threads will become the norm (assuming the funding model for these boards is viable and they continue). Your summaries have been even more essential for this show since there aren't official summaries for the thread starters to use. Edited June 7, 2015 by shapeshifter

[conetconet]

I don't know how you can point to this one crazed cult and say it all started there.

It didn't, and I didn't present it as such. But The Family was one of the first cult groups that received vast media coverage, before Lyman, before Synanon, before Children Of God, and the first, in my memory. My parents and my friends' parents became a lot more curious after 1970. YMMV.

It will be interesting to see if we'll get other celeb/celeb children analogues in future episodes...Deana Martin, Neil Young, Nancy Sinatra, and Terry Melcher (Doris Day's son) all had varying degrees of contact with Charlie prior to 1969.

[Tabasco Cat]

It didn't, and I didn't present it as such. But The Family was one of the first cult groups that received vast media coverage, before Lyman, before Synanon, before Children Of God, and the first, in my memory. My parents and my friends' parents became a lot more curious after 1970. YMMV.

 

IMO you did present it as such. I've never heard of Lyman or Synanon or Children of God. I guess some people are more presidposed to get preoccupied with this cult stuff than others. California has more than its share.

[helenamonster]

Taking the effect of the Family on safeguarding children, etc. to the Manson media thread.

[Tabasco Cat]

I have zero desire to discuss it anywhere.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Tabasco Cat