S05.E08: Hardhome

[Pogojoco]

Even if they did, why would anybody jump to the conclusion that he's secretly Rhaegar 's kid?\

 

 

Ned brings Jon Snow home after Lyanna dies. It's a known fact that Ned tried to rescue Lyanna at the Tower of Joy but found her dying. Robert knows that. Lyanna, who spent months and months with Rhaeger. As his companion/prisoner (depending on who you ask), as his lover/ victim (depending on who you ask). Rhaeger, who had publicly declared his interest in Lyanna at Harrenhal. And was known in his circles to have wanted a third child (prophecy thing), but his wife was unable to. 

 

Ned, who seems unlikely to take a lover outside his vows, having a bastard was just barely believed. Mostly because he got scary when he was questioned about it. 

 

It's not that far of a jump. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Pogojoco

[InsertWordHere]

Wasn't there a brief throwaway story in AFFC  about a knight who had a thing for Rhaella (it seemed implied that the feelings were returned)? But he wasn't of sufficient status (and, you know, not her brother). So he turned to religion and I want to say was the one left in charge of Harrenhall after Jaime left?

Yes. Ser Bonifer Hasty, the commander of the Holy Hundred. He is currently Castellan of Harrenhal. According to Barristan, Rhaella was smitten with him. He named her the Queen of Love and Beauty at a tourney, and put down his lance when she wed Aerys. 

[Hecate7]

It's not just Jamie who says Aerys was mad. Selmy is the other one who says it for sure. It was just sort of known.

 

And it's said that all Targaryans in history are either fantastic or insane. GRRM gives endless examples. Tyrion keeps kind of referring to Daenerys like that- like he's not sure which she is yet.  

 

Viserys was mercurial, impulsive and abusive. He also had some serious delusions of grandeur.

 

Viserys didn't have delusions of grandeur. He literally was the rightful heir to the throne. His father was the king, and he was the only surviving son. He no more recognized the Baratheon family's right to rule than Danaerys does. He had delusions of a kind, but his belief in his own right to rule wasn't one of them. He was the lost heir.

 

I think he was a bit insane, actually, and I feel very sorry for him. He thought he was purchasing Khal Drogo and his army. Had he known that they were never going to fight for him, he'd have kept Danaerys and perhaps tried to work something out with the Martells or some other conspirators. He was insane with jealousy. He was so insane by the end that he actually believed that Drogo would just shake his hand, crown him, and fall in line, after he'd threatened Dany and her unborn child with a sword.

[hammaboo]

 

The more I think about it, the more I know I would have froze in the moment when confronted with the undead kids.  They are so disturbing looking.

[Pogojoco]

Viserys didn't have delusions of grandeur. He literally was the rightful heir to the throne. His father was the king, and he was the only surviving son. He no more recognized the Baratheon family's right to rule than Danaerys does. He had delusions of a kind, but his belief in his own right to rule wasn't one of them. He was the lost heir.

His delusions of grandeur come with his dealings with the Dothraki- he thinks they should just bend to his will because he is the "heir" and rather than trying to win them over and adapt (as his sister did), he just freaks out. 

 

And the "right to rule" thing is slippery. Targaryens conquered to win the right to rule in the first place and were foreign invaders.

 

They were conquered by the Baratheons, and now the Lannisters are on the throne as a result. The Targaryens lost. 

[DigitalCount]

His delusions of grandeur come with his dealings with the Dothraki- he thinks they should just bend to his will because he is the "heir" and rather than trying to win them over and adapt (as his sister did), he just freaks out.

And the "right to rule" thing is slippery. Targaryens conquered to win the right to rule in the first place and were foreign invaders.

They were conquered by the Baratheons, and now the Lannisters are on the throne as a result. The Targaryens lost.

I don't think his dealings with the Dothraki were particularly deluded so much as privileged. He believed he had their fealty because that's how it worked in his world and culture. Dany was humble for the same reason Tommen is; she hadn't been raised believing that she'd be queen, while Viserys had some time to consider himself the rightful king and stew on it.

[Macbeth]

It was interesting how vicioulsy Tormund killed Lord of Bones - Skeletor whatever.

 

I read the books and know that Bag of Bones had a larger part to play.  Whatever it was - it really didn't hold my interest.

 

But he was another extraenous character in another extraenous plot as GRRM went about trying to document every fart made in Westeros in the last couple of books.  IMO.   I did love the first 3 books.

 

I felt Tormund was standing in the for the producers' frustration, who only have 10 very expensive hours a year to tell this story and bring it to a close.

 

So the viciousness in which Bone Man died was noteworthy to me. YMMV

 

[Constantinople]

It was interesting how vicioulsy Tormund killed Lord of Bones - Skeletor whatever.

 

I read the books and know that Bag of Bones had a larger part to play.  Whatever it was - it really didn't hold my interest.

 

But he was another extraenous character in another extraenous plot as GRRM went about trying to document every fart made in Westeros in the last couple of books.  IMO.   I did love the first 3 books.

 

I felt Tormund was standing in the for the producers' frustration, who only have 10 very expensive hours a year to tell this story and bring it to a close.

 

So the viciousness in which Bone Man died was noteworthy to me. YMMV

All I know is I'm never complaining about the Wyndham Rewards program. Ever.

I'll just take my waffles in Branson and STFU.

[marys1000]

Oh, and I like that Cersei is awful and I think it's totally okay that she is. One of the best contributions GRRM had given the whole fantasy genre was populating his work with so many varied women, who are noble, vain, sweet, insane, misguided, evil etc etc. No two are alike. 

But not particularly smart or competant which is my biggest complaint.  If they are they don't last long. 

 

I love Jorah and don't understand why Dany won't take him back!

 

So Tywin had a valeryian steel sword reworked into 2 different swords.  Jaime had one that he gave to Brienne, what happened to the other one?  I assume it was Tywin's.  Will it or they come into play? 

 

What did Sansa grab when walking on the wall with Ramsey on their way to see the old woman flayed?  I would so love to hear that she guts him during sex.  Am not looking forward to any Ramsey victory over Stannis and am terrified that Theon tells Ramsey he told Sansa about the boys.

Edited June 5, 2015 by marys1000

[Hecate7]

I don't think his dealings with the Dothraki were particularly deluded so much as privileged. He believed he had their fealty because that's how it worked in his world and culture. Dany was humble for the same reason Tommen is; she hadn't been raised believing that she'd be queen, while Viserys had some time to consider himself the rightful king and stew on it.

 

Exactly!

 

And there is an enormous difference between ruling because 2000 years ago your ancestors conquered, and your family have been ruling ever since, and ruling because ten years ago you conquered a place. There were no lost heirs who remembered growing up in the Red Keep, for thousands of years, and now suddenly here was Viserys, on his own from age five, being told every day of his life that it was his right and his duty to regain the throne lost by his father and brother.

 

If the Targaryens lost, well, so could the Baratheons, at any time, and Viserys was raised to believe that his life's purpose was to bring that about. That's no more delusional than say, if Rickon Stark wanted to take Winterfell back from the Boltons.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Hecate7

[Alapaki]

And the "right to rule" thing is slippery. Targaryens conquered to win the right to rule in the first place and were foreign invaders.

They were conquered by the Baratheons, and now the Lannisters are on the throne as a result. The Targaryens lost.

 

 

I don't think it was that simple.

 

The Targaryens had ruled for about 300 years in Westeros.  Mad King Aerys pissed off nearly all of his allies (including, supposedly, his son Rhaegar).  

 

Ultimately a King's (or Contender's) claim to the throne is only as strong as the might of the factions which align behind them.  (indeed, in some cases, the contender is merely a vehicle for those factions to gain power).

 

There was a reason that when Aerys was killed the crown was given to Robert instead of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark or Tywin Lannister (who all had much stronger credentials for ruling).  The Baratheons had blood ties to the Targaryens.  And the reason that Robert was so hell-bent on killing Viserys and Daenaerys was precisely because the Targaryen name still meant something.

 

While the Baratheon blood-line claim to the throne was extremely tenuous, Robert knew that he needed to eliminate all other stronger blood-ties to ensure his place.  

 

If/when the right factions tired of Robert's rule, and especially if they didn't care for having a King Joffrey, Viserys would have been the natural choice.

[The Mormegil]

But not particularly smart or competant which is my biggest complaint.  If they are they don't last long. 

 

I love Jorah and don't understand why Dany won't take him back!

 

So Tywin had a valeryian steel sword reworked into 2 different swords.  Jaime had one that he gave to Brienne, what happened to the other one?  I assume it was Tywin's.  Will it or they come into play? 

 

What did Sansa grab when walking on the wall with Ramsey on their way to see the old woman flayed?  I would so love to hear that she guts him during sex.  Am not looking forward to any Ramsey victory over Stannis and am terrified that Theon tells Ramsey he told Sansa about the boys.

Joff was given the other sword. With his death it presumably passed to Tommen.

 

Sansa grabbed some sort of building tool (with a pointy end).

[BlackberryJam]

Sansa grabbed a small auger, which is a carpentry tool for boring (heh) holes. Kind of like a badass corkscrew.

[FemmyV]

 

Ned brings Jon Snow home after Lyanna dies. It's a known fact that Ned tried to rescue Lyanna at the Tower of Joy but found her dying. Robert knows that.

 

Season 1, ep 2, approx 22:00, sharing war bedding stories:

 

Robert: "Thank the gods for Bessie, and her tits. Yours was, Eleena, no? Meryl? Your bastard's mother."

Ned: "Wyla."

Robert: "That's it. .... must have been a rare wench to make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor. You never told me what she looked like."

Ned: "Nor will I."

Robert: "We were at war, none of us knew if we were going back home again. Too hard on yourself."

[Pogojoco]

Season 1, ep 2, approx 22:00, sharing war bedding stories:

 

Robert: "Thank the gods for Bessie, and her tits. Yours was, Eleena, no? Meryl? Your bastard's mother."

Ned: "Wyla."

Robert: "That's it. .... must have been a rare wench to make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor. You never told me what she looked like."

Ned: "Nor will I."

Robert: "We were at war, none of us knew if we were going back home again. Too hard on yourself."

Likely the story Ned told Robert when the news of his bastard was made known. 

 

Robert was passionately in love with Lyanna. First thing he does when he arrives at Winterfell is visit her tomb. He'd want details about circumstances of her death. And Arthur Dayne isn't fighting to the death over Lyanna's corpse. Ned was there when she died. 

 

Ned gives Robert enough details to satisfy, and inserts details to draw attention away from questions about Jon Snow. 

 

Wylla was a woman in the service of House Dayne. She was likely Lyanna's midwife and/or wet nurse. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Pogojoco

[marys1000]

Thought this episode was great for the most part.  Loved Dany and Tyrion's conversation, though it surprised me that Dany would accept Tyrion so quickly, to the extent that she even followed his advice in dismissing Jorah.  Jorah was the most loyal person to her still living; how did she know Tyrion wasn't setting up a trap?

I can only imagine what it would be like to be fighting to go rule a home you've never even been to, haven't met any of the major players, everything you know or have heard is 3rd hand and then......boom here is a Lannister. Even if 3rd born, on the run for killing his father, etc. still the real deal with lots of first hand knowledge.  I can see that Dany would be fascinated. 

 

I noticed a parallel between Dany's speech about breaking the wheel and the High Sparrow's speech about the many no longer fearing the few.  They're both casting their actions as benefiting the common man at the expense of the aristocracy.  It'd be interesting to see them interact, because on the surface it looks like they have the same goal but they really don't.  Dany is aiming for absolute monarchy / enlightened despotism, while HS wants basically a theocracy.

 

I doubt we'll ever get to see them talk, unless someone brings them glass candles.

Dany's lover told her she should kill the ruling class, then she tells Tyrion she will break the wheel.  So something is going on in her mind (I do find these proclamations becoming a bit much)

 

Theon told  Sansa the truth about Bran and Rickon! How brilliant is that? Even  if she can't find them right now, just knowing that they could be alive and  that  there's still hope to see a Stark as lord of Winterfell has to be amazing. 

 

This worries me so much because he has always ratted himself out to Ramsey.  I'm starting to get a Gollum vibe parallel from this Reek/Theon thing and I don't like it. 

 

Is it possible fangs father wasn't mad after all but wanted to burn the city to stave off white walkers?

I dunno something about the way "the mad king" keeps being repeated is giving me pause.

 

Interesting.  Tyrion knows how to use that stuff, maybe that will come in handy.  Can dragons kill White Walkers or just wights?

 

The thing is, the White Walkers seem really self-aware and sentient, not just mindless killers like in the book. They seem to have a plan. And they dress in clothes and arm themselves... I wonder if anyone has ever tried to 'sit down', as in a war council, with one, and what would be that outcome? Do they even have language?

I didn't quote but someone upthread mentioned that wearing armour, even if not ice armour brought the WW closer to the book not further away. Maybe if it was ice armour and they still looked tall and thin and out of this world.  I read an interview with GRRM and he talked about how alien they were, to the point of hinting that they might actually be some sort of "alien". Their whole technology and biology is totally different.   If they were going to put them in armour it needed to look different.  They just looked like pale people with bad scars and blue contacts. Actually he reminded me of Joffery. The WW king acted like a human.  I HATED IT.  The north and the wall have always been my favorite plot line since the beginning, the WW from the first scene grabbed me and now they are ruining it by making them mere extraordinary humans.  

 

I wonder if the the Wilding woman had to die so the show/GRRM can keep its rep as killing of important characters, while not doing so as much as in the books?  She wasn't maybe technically important but she sure was a character that people came to care about quick. So the keep the rep and the main characters. 

 

I want Mel and the HS to meet.  (I really don't like any kind of religious fanatics). 

 

My mother told me that, back then, in order to marry a first cousin you had to submit a letter or petition to the Church (Catholic) and they had the say.  This was in the USSR.  Apparently she had a cousin that wanted to marry a different (first) cousin.  Not sure if that was just because the Church had all the marriage records for Catholics but I suspect so.  They could do the research on how closely related.  I got the impression that it was done often enough but was still something to remark on. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by marys1000

[Ambrosefolly]

His delusions of grandeur come with his dealings with the Dothraki- he thinks they should just bend to his will because he is the "heir" and rather than trying to win them over and adapt (as his sister did), he just freaks out. 

 

And the "right to rule" thing is slippery. Targaryens conquered to win the right to rule in the first place and were foreign invaders.

 

They were conquered by the Baratheons, and now the Lannisters are on the throne as a result. The Targaryens lost.

I always felt a little bad for Viserys (then again I am a huge HL fan), but I don't think that Dany is all that adaptable nor did she love the Dothraki as much as she professed. She had to adapt and luckily Dorgo actually had a softer side that she was able to tease out (thanks to her servants), but once she no longer needed the more unsavory parts of Dothraki culture, she discarded it. It took forever to reopen the fighting pits for free men to fight in because she didn't like it and she is a Queen,even though her lover, who tells her to feed the masters to the dragons, told her he appreciated the fighting pits.

 

 

 

Theon told  Sansa the truth about Bran and Rickon! How brilliant is that? Even  if she can't find them right now, just knowing that they could be alive and  that  there's still hope to see a Stark as lord of Winterfell has to be amazing.

This worries me so much because he has always ratted himself out to Ramsey.  I'm starting to get a Gollum vibe parallel from this Reek/Theon thing and I don't like it.

 

But what can Ramsey do to Sansa if she knows, beat her until she forgets? All she knows is that her younger brothers are alive, so she has as much information as Ramsey. Sansa not only gains more of a will to endure and possibly regains the politically cunning personality she gained at the end of last season, Ramsey loses power because whatever child he produces with Sansa won't be as strong of a claimant as a ruler of the North as either Bran and Rickon and now she knows this. Top that off, if and when he brothers return to reclaim their birthright, child or not, she will turn on Roose and Ramsey  because they treated her like shit only now she can plan accordingly. Theon is the major loser in this if he tells Ramsey.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[Hecate7]

I always felt a little bad for Viserys (then again I am a huge HL fan), but I don't think that Dany is all that adaptable nor did she love the Dothraki as much as she professed. She had to adapt and luckily Dorgo actually had a softer side that she was able to tease out (thanks to her servants), but once she no longer needed the more unsavory parts of Dothraki culture, she discarded it. It took forever to reopen the fighting pits for free men to fight in because she didn't like it and she is a Queen,even though her lover, who tells her to feed the masters to the dragons, told her he appreciated the fighting pits.

 

 

But what can Ramsey do to Sansa if she knows, beat her until she forgets? All she knows is that her younger brothers are alive, so she has as much information as Ramsey. Sansa not only gains more of a will to endure and possibly regains the politically cunning personality she gained at the end of last season, Ramsey loses power because whatever child he produces with Sansa won't be as strong of a claimant as a ruler of the North as either Bran and Rickon and now she knows this. Top that off, if and when he brothers return to reclaim their birthright, child or not, she will turn on Roose and Ramsey  because they treated her like shit only now she can plan accordingly. Theon is the major loser in this if he tells Ramsey.

 

No, the major losers are Bran and Rickon, because Ramsey will send search parties and assassins after them to make sure that no one challenges his claim. He will either kill them, or convince Sansa that he has killed them. Theon & Sansa better keep their mouths shut this time, or this could get very ugly very fast.

 

Oh, another thing. If Ramsey becomes convinced that Sansa's claim is worthless and that marriage to her isn't the key to the North, he might decide he'd be better off as a widower seeking a new bride from the Mormonts or the Karstarks. Or even the Freys.

[Pogojoco]

No, the major losers are Bran and Rickon, because Ramsey will send search parties and assassins after them to make sure that no one challenges his claim. He will either kill them, or convince Sansa that he has killed them. Theon & Sansa better keep their mouths shut this time, or this could get very ugly very fast.

 

Oh, another thing. If Ramsey becomes convinced that Sansa's claim is worthless and that marriage to her isn't the key to the North, he might decide he'd be better off as a widower seeking a new bride from the Mormonts or the Karstarks. Or even the Freys.

I think this latest revelation from Theon is a step forward for him. I'm not sure he's telling Ramsey. He's starting to break around this time in the book, though he does have spearwives needling him. And Lady Dustin gets him reminiscing about the Starks. 

 

Sansa could also just say Theon never said anything to her and she believes her brothers are dead, like "How could little boys survive in the wilderness alone? And one is crippled." Not mentioning wolves or Hodor or Osha (not that Sansa would even know about the latter two. Bran was unconscious when she left Winterfell.) 

 

Also, maybe, Reek has run its course, story-wise. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Ambrosefolly]

No, the major losers are Bran and Rickon, because Ramsey will send search parties and assassins after them to make sure that no one challenges his claim. He will either kill them, or convince Sansa that he has killed them. Theon & Sansa better keep their mouths shut this time, or this could get very ugly very fast.

 

Oh, another thing. If Ramsey becomes convinced that Sansa's claim is worthless and that marriage to her isn't the key to the North, he might decide he'd be better off as a widower seeking a new bride from the Mormonts or the Karstarks. Or even the Freys.

He is already doing this, Roose and Ramsey sent Locke to Castle Black to find Bran and Rickon to murder them. If the Umbers have Rickon now, they won't let him go, especially if they have any girls that they could marry him off to, and Osha has proven to be quite savvy at alluding people trying to track them. As for Bran, not only is he hidden in a place that no human can get to without supernatural help,

his mind will grow ridiculous powerful with help from the 3 Eyed Raven.

He has already killed wildings with Summer and snapped Locke's neck using Hodor.

 

Sansa's claim will never be worthless compared to Freys, Mormonts (who I don't think would willingly give up any daughters for Ramsey to marry) and even Kastarks, only in comparison to her younger brothers. He still needs Sansa as a broodmare. Hopefully won't confront Ramsey with her new found knowledge right away, but bid her time and use it against him when the moment presents itself. 

[Pogojoco]

I'd forgotten Ramsey had done that- that the guy who cut off Jamie's hand was sent North by Ramsey to look for little boys. I remember him being there with Jon, but not who sent him.

 

I also forgot that Osha was taking Rickon to the Umbers. The speculation in the book is that she took him to Skagos (unicorns! cannibals!) but the Umber are probably safer. 

 

Greatjon Umber was such a great presence (him laughing off Grey Wind ripping his fingers off, the "King in the North" scene.) He wasn't at the Red Wedding. He's a prisoner in the book, but the show has left it open. I hope the show brings him back.

 

I've complained that the lack of Manderly shrinks the North down too much (Boltons and baby Starks), but bringing back some Umbers and maybe Morments might rectify it. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Pogojoco

[candall]

I wonder who is more unpopular with the unsullied viewers, Cersei or Jaime?

And that would be Cersei, by a country mile.

 

We love the Jaime-Bronn bromance and hope Jaime casting that yearning look toward the Sapphire Isle means his heart is with Brienne, whether or not he realizes.

[Elkins]

I didn't get a chance to see this episode until rather late in the week. Well, that was quite some action scene, wasn't it?
 
I'm not ordinarily into action sequences at all, actually. I have a hard time maintaining interest in them, to be honest, and I truly do suck at "reading" them. It's embarrassing to admit but often, I don't even fully understand what happened in action scenes until it is explained to me afterwards. I have an extremely poor spatial sense -- like, learning disability level poor -- and that in combination with my tendency to lose interest makes following big action sequences genuinely difficult for me. So when I heard that there was going to be some enormous battle hoo-ha taking up the back half of this episode, I settled in to watch it with a rather glum expression on my face.
 
But even I liked that one. I could actually follow what was happening, for once, and bits of it were genuinely creepy. It seemed to me in places to be hewing much closer to the visual "grammar" of a horror movie than to the usual grammar of an action movie, which may have been why I enjoyed it: horror sequences are rarely difficult for me to follow the way that action sequences are, for some weird reason.
 

RE: Dissatisfaction with Arya's plotline
 
A lot of people seem to be finding Arya's current plotline uninteresting. I think that her story may be suffering this season from not fitting in with the others thematically. This season seems to me to be very much about "sleeping with the enemy" -- sometimes even literally! -- and about the necessity of doing that sometimes in order to achieve your goals. Sometimes getting in bed with your old enemies can even transform them into powerful allies, sometimes it merely allows you to survive long enough or position yourself well enough to plan your next move, but nearly every storyline this season touches somehow on this concept. Those who show themselves willing to play ball -- Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Sansa, Tormund, possibly Jaime and Doran (depending on where their story goes) -- are the heroes of the season. Those who refuse to do so -- Cersei, Ellaria, the Sand Snakes, Mance, Marge -- get mown down by the season's inexorable thematic momentum.
 
And then there's Arya. Back there in Braavos, doing her own thing.
 
Personally, I like Arya's story this season. I enjoy her scenes very much; I think they're all sorts of creepy and atmospheric and cool. But I can see how it just doesn't fit in all that well with the other stuff that's going on. I think that the writers did try to tie it in by linking Arya's story to Theon's in exactly the same way that the books did -- through motifs of identity and identity loss -- but as it turns out, that's not what has emerged as the strongest thematic thrust this season at all, and as a result her story winds up feeling as if it's wandering lost somewhere out in left field.
 
 
RE: cousin marriage

In regard to the discussion on cousin marriage, I think that some of my fellow USians might be showing just a bit of...provincialism, maybe, here? The US is actually quite unusual for its excessive aversion to marriage between first cousins. There are plenty of places where it isn't frowned upon at all. In fact, in many parts of the Middle East, first cousins are considered the ideal partners. It's primarily Westerners -- well, Westerners, the Chinese, and the Koreans -- who consider cousin marriage problematic, and it's nonetheless still fairly commonplace in Europe. The US is one of the only places in the world that has actually gone so far as to make it a criminal offense (and even then, it is so only in some US states), and even the existence of laws making it illegal often comes as quite a shock to people from other countries.  When it comes to toleration of cousin marriage, we're not at all in the middle of the road; we're very much at one far end of that particular spectrum.

 

(Aaaand, checking out the US map there, I see that I'm actually currently living in a state where it's illegal! How weird. I didn't grow up in a part of the country where it was, nor was I married in one. Huh. Guess it's a good thing I didn't marry a cousin then.)
 
 

RE: Cersei and her popularity or lack thereof
 
I think that Cersei is popular with a lot of show-only viewers, but very much in the same way that viewers loved Lucille in Arrested Development. Or, for that matter, in the same way that the queen bitch characters on the classic daytime soap operas were adored (but let us hope that Lena Headey has more luck with the Emmy awards than Susan Lucci did!). Her nastiness can be vicariously thrilling, and she's camp as all hell. She amuses through audacity. That's not at all the same sort of popularity, though, that characters who are viewed as truly likeable enjoy. It's a completely different form of audience pleasure.
 

Positive character moment with Cersei ...

Oh, I often find myself reacting positively to Cersei. Primarily I do so when she is expressing her rage, because while she's a terrible human being, her rage is nonetheless just so hideously and painfully and intimately familiar to me that I can't help but respond positively to it. I loved the frustrated edge rising in her voice when she said about being raised alongside Jaime, "I could never figure out why they treated us so differently." I loved it when she threw the fact of her incest right in her father's face. I loved it when she responded to Sansa's cry of "But you were Robert's QUEEN" with "As you will be Joffrey's. Enjoy!" And God, how I loved the drunken over-enunciation she gave to her plosives in "in for a bit of rape!"
 
In those moments, the fact that she's a spiteful and sadistic creature who cares for nothing but herself just doesn't seem nearly as relevant to me as my sense of identification with her anger and her frustration. I guess you could say that in those moments I "like" her, but it's really not the right word, and it rather misses the point besides. Who cares about "liking" anyway? When it comes to fiction, liking doesn't really enter into the equation for me; it's identification that matters far more. Not affection, but empathy.
 
And to tell you the secret and terrible truth, I sort of do want her to wind up burning the whole damned city down. It's funny: I hate it when Dany yells about burning shit down, because she always has to get her super-ego all up in there, so it comes out all self-righteous. But I love it each and every time Cersei breaks something or shrieks about wanting to destroy something or burn something down, because when she does it, there's no moral dimension to it at all. No, when Cersei does it, it is pure untrammeled selfish raging id, and I love that.
 
Tyrion is so wrong: the best part of Cersei isn't her cunt, nor is it her cheekbones, nor her supposed love for her children. Her anger is the best part of her, the purest and the most true thing, and how I want to see her give it rein!  Burn it down, Cersei! Burn the whole damned city down!

Edited June 6, 2015 by Elkins

[jeansheridan]

 

We love the Jaime-Bronn bromance and hope Jaime casting that yearning look toward the Sapphire Isle means his heart is with Brienne, whether or not he realizes.

I love Jaime (and the actor who plays him), but I do think the character has gotten a big pass compared to Cersei.  Before his redemption arc started (and I guess that happened the moment he tried to keep Brienne from being raped) he had pushed a kid out a window, attacked Ned Stark, battled Robb, and killed his own cousin after disarming him with a charming family story.  

 

Of course Jaime was always kind to Tyrion which instantly made him more appealing.  And spending a season tied to a pole humbled him a bit.  Plus he said such deliciously snarky things to Cat.  

[WearyTraveler]

I think they made a mistake by not speeding up Arya's story a little bit.  Only until the part where she gets to wear a face.  Then audiences will be riveted because they saw the faces, but J'aquen changing his fce for Arya was a long time ago, and the plot point loses its punch.  If we saw Arya wearing someone else's face.... well, that would fire up all sorts of speculation and excitement. IMO.

 

Part of the problem is, I think, that since she was the closing shot last season, people sort of expected her story to be something with more fireworks, not training in a dungeon.  

[Brn2bwild]

My mother told me that, back then, in order to marry a first cousin you had to submit a letter or petition to the Church (Catholic) and they had the say.  This was in the USSR.  Apparently she had a cousin that wanted to marry a different (first) cousin.  Not sure if that was just because the Church had all the marriage records for Catholics but I suspect so.  They could do the research on how closely related.  I got the impression that it was done often enough but was still something to remark on. 

 

I can't speak of the Catholic Church, but the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia refused to recognize first-cousin marriages at one time.  The Anglican Church, however, took no issue with it... though ironically, at one point it banned marriages of a widower to his deceased wife's sister.

[benteen]

I've liked Arya's storyline onscreen more than in the book.  In the book, it was hard to gain interest in something that was so detached from Westeros.  I think that was one of my problems with Tyrion's ADWD storyline.  I like seeing these characters in WESTEROS or at least dealing with Westerosi characters.  But both their storylines have worked for me on the show.

 

I know GRRM loves the Arya in Braavos stuff and could write a ton of it based on his own words (more or less).

[Pogojoco]

Oh, I often find myself reacting positively to Cersei. Primarily I do so when she is expressing her rage, because while she's a terrible human being, her rage is nonetheless just so hideously and painfully and intimately familiar to me that I can't help but respond positively to it. I loved the frustrated edge rising in her voice when she said about being raised alongside Jaime, "I could never figure out why they treated us so differently." I loved it when she threw the fact of her incest right in her father's face. I loved it when she responded to Sansa's cry of "But you were Robert's QUEEN" with "As you will be Joffrey's. Enjoy!" And God, how I loved the drunken over-enunciation she gave to her plosives in "in for a bit of rape!"

 

In those moments, the fact that she's a spiteful and sadistic creature who cares for nothing but herself just doesn't seem nearly as relevant to me as my sense of identification with her anger and her frustration. I guess you could say that in those moments I "like" her, but it's really not the right word, and it rather misses the point besides. Who cares about "liking" anyway? When it comes to fiction, liking doesn't really enter into the equation for me; it's identification that matters far more. Not affection, but empathy.

 

And to tell you the secret and terrible truth, I sort of do want her to wind up burning the whole damned city down. It's funny: I hate it when Dany yells about burning shit down, because she always has to get her super-ego all up in there, so it comes out all self-righteous. But I love it each and every time Cersei breaks something or shrieks about wanting to destroy something or burn something down, because when she does it, there's no moral dimension to it at all. No, when Cersei does it, it is pure untrammeled selfish raging id, and I love that.

 

Tyrion is so wrong: the best part of Cersei isn't her cunt, nor is it her cheekbones, nor her supposed love for her children. Her anger is the best part of her, the purest and the most true thing, and how I want to see her give it rein!  Burn it down, Cersei! Burn the whole damned city down!

I'm kind of sad she hasn't burned the Tower of the Hand down yet-it's one of my favourite raging Cersei moments. But maybe that's coming. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Rockstar99435]

Oh, I often find myself reacting positively to Cersei. Primarily I do so when she is expressing her rage, because while she's a terrible human being, her rage is nonetheless just so hideously and painfully and intimately familiar to me that I can't help but respond positively to it. I loved the frustrated edge rising in her voice when she said about being raised alongside Jaime, "I could never figure out why they treated us so differently." I loved it when she threw the fact of her incest right in her father's face. I loved it when she responded to Sansa's cry of "But you were Robert's QUEEN" with "As you will be Joffrey's. Enjoy!" And God, how I loved the drunken over-enunciation she gave to her plosives in "in for a bit of rape!"

 

In those moments, the fact that she's a spiteful and sadistic creature who cares for nothing but herself just doesn't seem nearly as relevant to me as my sense of identification with her anger and her frustration. I guess you could say that in those moments I "like" her, but it's really not the right word, and it rather misses the point besides. Who cares about "liking" anyway? When it comes to fiction, liking doesn't really enter into the equation for me; it's identification that matters far more. Not affection, but empathy.

 

And to tell you the secret and terrible truth, I sort of do want her to wind up burning the whole damned city down. It's funny: I hate it when Dany yells about burning shit down, because she always has to get her super-ego all up in there, so it comes out all self-righteous. But I love it each and every time Cersei breaks something or shrieks about wanting to destroy something or burn something down, because when she does it, there's no moral dimension to it at all. No, when Cersei does it, it is pure untrammeled selfish raging id, and I love that.

 

Tyrion is so wrong: the best part of Cersei isn't her cunt, nor is it her cheekbones, nor her supposed love for her children. Her anger is the best part of her, the purest and the most true thing, and how I want to see her give it rein!  Burn it down, Cersei! Burn the whole damned city down!

 

Ha! I never thought about it like that, but yes, exactly. I know most of the other women in Westeros also have to deal with the same sexist garbage and they don't respond by killing people who get in their way, but damn, Cersei's rage at her world is so understandable to me that I can't totally hate her.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Rockstar99435

[nksarmi]

Ha! I never thought about it like that, but yes, exactly. I know most of the other women in Westeros also have to deal with the same sexist garbage and they don't respond by killing people who get in their way, but damn, Cersei's rage at her world is so understandable to me that I can't totally hate her.

I think part of my problem is that I don't understand what all her rage is really about - in fact, she seems rather nuts to me all along in  books.  The show calmed down her psycho nut job tendencies a lot.  On the show, I get why she hates Robert B. and I understand why she takes steps to protect herself from Ned.  But outside of those issues, I don't empathize with her rage and to me, most of her problems are her own making (especially the latest ones with Tywells and Faith Militant). I have similar issues with book Sansa and honestly, if things go south for Marg, she will be in much the same boat.

 

Cersei, Sansa, and Marg are different and likely have various levels of innocence, but on the show (leaving the books aside for a minute) all three women wanted to be queen/princess more than anything else.  Only in Cersei's case was her father pushing her into the marriage, but we see from her flashback that she wanted to be queen from a young age, just not with the king she got.  And on the show, she tried and wanted to love Robert, but he was obsessed with a dead woman.  If he had been kind to her at least, they might have formed a good friendship and ruled well together (with their individual sexual exploits never to be discussed).  Perhaps with some kindness, at least one of Cersei's children might have actually been Robert's (on the show that is - that POV in the books about "eating" his children was definitely one of her "this lady is going to go nuts and be dangerous" moments).

 

Marg wanted to be queen so badly, she agrees to serve as Renly's beard and then to marry Geoffrey even though she knows he is crazy and mean.  Only her grandmother's scheming saved her from him.  Now she got her wish with Tommen but she has to go and goad Cersei and take steps to try to get her sent away.  Come on Marg, don't poke the crazy.  So while Marg doesn't deserve the FM shit, she also had many chances to go back to High Garden and marry a nice prince of Dorne or some other house and just settle on being a high lady instead of queen.  At some point, the juice is just not worth the squeeze.

 

Sansa is portrayed as being much more innocent than Cersei or Marg, but she still wanted to be queen SO badly that even after she witnessed Geoffrey's mean side, knew as well as Ayra that he had the butcher's boy killed, and lost her Lady because of these evil people, she still went ahead with her fantasy and wanted to be a part of it.  When he father wanted to get her out of the capital because things were getting dangerous, she still desperately wanted to be queen.  Only seeing her father's head come off woke her up to the truth of what Geoffrey was, but it was there for the seeing if she had cared to see it.  I don't blame Sansa for all the bad shit that has happened to her because lots of other people share that blame, but it is not lost of me that in the books, she is still aligned with the man who was vital in bringing her family down.  The show is saving her for me a bit because she has come to represent the Starks for me in the North and she might just end up being the one to save Rickon and bring her family back together.  But I still can't entirely forget that she once loudly proclaimed her love for Geoffrey and insisted he would be king and that she wanted to be queen.

 

All told, I disdain Cersei, don't care about Marg, and only the show is saving Sansa for me.  I enjoy women like Brie (who defy social convention), young Arya (who never wanted to be a lady), Ashra (who seems to have her head on straight and likely would make a good ruler for the Iron Born), and the non-existent princess of Dorne (I wish they had given us her even if they changed everything else in Dorne).

 

I think on the show I could end up like Marcella because I love the fact that she went where she was told and just happen to fall in love with her betrothed for real and now she wants nothing to do with her mother and "uncle" changing their minds.  That is the kind of young love I find sweet and adorable.  I loved Dany until she settled in Meereen - I'm waiting to see if she ends up being a character I adore or end up not caring much about.

[dr pepper]

Greatjon Umber was such a great presence (him laughing off Grey Wind ripping his fingers off, the "King in the North" scene.) He wasn't at the Red Wedding. He's a prisoner in the book, but the show has left it open. I hope the show brings him back.

 

 

I don't remember that. I thought i read a description of the Great Jon grabbing up a table to use as a shield but being killed anyway.

[Pogojoco]

I don't remember that. I thought i read a description of the Great Jon grabbing up a table to use as a shield but being killed anyway.

According to a Wiki of Ice and Fire

 

"With the Greatjon still a captive of House Frey, a portion of House Umber, led by his uncle Hother Whoresbane, grudgingly swears fealty to House Bolton, though according to Roose Bolton their loyalty is highly dubious. The other half of the Umbers, under Mors Crowfood, take up the cause of Stannis Baratheon."

 

He's alive!

[dr pepper]

I've liked Arya's storyline onscreen more than in the book.  In the book, it was hard to gain interest in something that was so detached from Westeros.  I think that was one of my problems with Tyrion's ADWD storyline.  I like seeing these characters in WESTEROS or at least dealing with Westerosi characters.  But both their storylines have worked for me on the show.

 

I know GRRM loves the Arya in Braavos stuff and could write a ton of it based on his own words (more or less).

 

Book 6: A Crowd of Faces. I'd be cool with that. It would give us something to read and then discuss while waiting for him to work out whatever problems he's having with what would now be books 7 and 8.

[SeanC]

I don't blame Sansa for all the bad shit that has happened to her because lots of other people share that blame, but it is not lost of me that in the books, she is still aligned with the man who was vital in bringing her family down. 

(a)  She does not know about that.

(b)  She does not have anywhere else to go.

[John Potts]

(I would have liked this episode more if the sound on my DVD hadn't been completely screwed up so I got no sound and could only follow the dialogue via subtitles - though as it turned out, there wasn't a lot of talking in the second half of the episode).  [/First World Problems!]

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 4:52 AM, mac123x said:

I did get a kick out of how quicky Dany noticed that Tyrion is a drunk.  "Advise me" [snatches his wine goblet] "While you can still form complete sentences."

It was a fairly clear eyed assessment of a man she's just met: that he was both politically savvy and a drunk!

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 5:45 AM, Andromeda said:

So I'm a little confused if they're saying now that all Cersei has to do is own up to her sins, because the charges are huge -- including murdering a sitting king. I can't imagine a nudey parade will be enough punishment for those crimes.

This is just spec, but I imagine the Faith can't (officially) execute people. All they can do is make people do penance for their sins. It wouldn't necessarily mean the King couldn't try them for their "Civil" (for want of a better word) crimes.

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 4:00 AM, trif said:

I took Dany's speech about "breaking, not stopping" the wheel to mean putting power directly in the hands of the people. Stopping the wheel, with herself on top, would be an absolute monarchy. That is Varys's vision and I think the most most "good" people in Westeros are even capable of imagining, which feels very realistic to me.

That seems incredibly unlikely to me. Danny talks about making people better off, but seems to have little idea how to do that. "I'll free the slaves!" Great - so how do the former slaves live now? There's a reason her rule in Essos (wherever she doesn't have her army, at least) is so shaky and the slaves are apparently asking to be re-enslaved. You know who else talks about "the people"? The High Sparrow (OK, he talks of "The Many" rather than "The People", but it's much the same). Overthrowing the ruling class would probably mean handing it over to the only other organisation with any structure, the Faith Militant. Just like IRL, the execution of the English King Charles I led to rule by the fundamentalist Oliver Cromwell, who went on to ignore Parliament, attempt genocide in Ireland and ban the celebration of Christmas.

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 8:28 PM, Chris24601 said:

I almost hope that the hint drops that Jon might be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which would give him a stronger claim to the throne than Dany) end up being red-herrings and he IS just Ned's bastard because it just makes everyone else trying to use blood right for their claim seem even pettier

I would flove it if this would come true, but it looks increasingly unlikely at this point.

As for the ending: Karsi was pretty clear eyed in both her debate and the likelihood of allowing the Wildlings through the Wall if Jon didn't survive. I actually thought the kids that ultimately killed her were meant to be her children, but we see her putting her own children on a boat and it looks like the dead can't swim, or freeze the sea (which makes sense, otherwise they could just bypass the Wall by freezing the sea and walking South), so I guess not. She may well have known some of them, though.

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:11 AM, Winnief said:

For the record I think the Night King recognized Jon as AA.

Or he just saw him as somebody who could kill him, which is definitely something worth noting when you're mostly indestructible (yes, I know Sam has killed one of them too, but he wasn't there).

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2015 at 3:11 AM, Winnief said:

And as the Unsullied note what's happening beyond the Wall now makes everything in KL seem so....petty.  And pointless.

But isn't that GRRM's point? Everyone too busy with their own problems to notice the world is about to end - they're all fiddling while the Realm burns (or rather, freezes).