S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Hecate7]

Scenario 3: Sansa blames Littlefinger for what happened.

 

And he reminds her that he saved her life after Joffrey's murder, and at the Eyrie, and that he had no idea about Ramsey, and offers to help her take down the Boltons. She's not gonna say no.

[benteen]

And he reminds her that he saved her life after Joffrey's murder, and at the Eyrie, and that he had no idea about Ramsey, and offers to help her take down the Boltons. She's not gonna say no.

 

Hopefully by the next time they meet, Sansa will have Stannis and the North behind her.

[Advance35]

So...the question becomes, how could D&D have Sansa arrive at the same place if they have "totally destroyed" her character as some have argued? Look, until the show finishes and until books are done, this idea that D&D have done something horrible to Sansa and betrayed her character is premature. If Sansa is a virgin queen or has a beautiful loving wedding night with say...Podrick, then those arguments have merit. On the other hand, if Sansa dies because she's just another red herring, suffers under a brutal husband, or gets a terrible horrible beatdown before rising from the ashes, D&D haven't done anything but preserve and portray the character GRRM has written.

 

 

Thank you for the Quote.   It's clear GRRM can still see how what happened will lead Sansa to her destiny, whatever that may be.   And he has gone on before about how the show made in an error in not including Garlan and Willas and other things.     Sansa will not end this story as a virgin queen or a virgin anything.    She may have a "close her eyes and think of the North" Honeymoon for all we know.    If this plot point was going to completely alter the story GRRM has planned for her I have know doubt he would say it.

[Constantinople]

And he reminds her

We don't even know if Littlefinger and Sansa will see each other or communicate with one another again.

 

that he saved her life after Joffrey's murder, and at the Eyrie

Just as Tyrion wouldn't have needed saving from the Stone Men had Jorah not kidnapped Tyrion in the first place, Sansa wouldn't have needed saving after Joffrey's murder had Littlefinger not murdered Joffrey, nor would she have needed saving in the Eyrie had Littlefinger not kissed her.

 

and that he had no idea about Ramsey,

Incompetence isn't typically a valued trait in a mentor.

 

and offers to help her take down the Boltons. She's not gonna say no.

To re-cap, Littlefinger only "saved" Sansa from dangers that he created. Sansa, however, did save Littlefinger from being tossed out the Moon Door because better the devil you know (Littlefinger) than the one you don't (the Lords of the Vale). She may not make the same decision again.

[Pogojoco]

As for Ramsey listening to Roose-

 

In the book, Roose is really the only person Ramsey seems afraid of. He also did all that stuff to Theon before he was Roose's heir. He was just his bastard before that. And he wasn't a beloved bastard like Jon Snow. 

 

Roose does tell Ramsey to get rid of the flayed corpses before Sansa and Littlefinger get there. Also, some of the "Walda is pregnant. It's a boy" is Roose's thinly veiled threat to Ramsey to behave himself. 

 

Not that Ramsey listened re. Sansa. But if she seems openly terrified in front of everyone, Roose might put his foot down. 

[Boundary]

So...the question becomes, how could D&D have Sansa arrive at the same place if they have "totally destroyed" her character as some have argued? Look, until the show finishes and until books are done, this idea that D&D have done something horrible to Sansa and betrayed her character is premature. If Sansa is a virgin queen or has a beautiful loving wedding night with say...Podrick, then those arguments have merit. On the other hand, if Sansa dies because she's just another red herring, suffers under a brutal husband, or gets a terrible horrible beatdown before rising from the ashes, D&D haven't done anything but preserve and portray the character GRRM has written.

 

I don't even think it's about her virginity as such, even though it matters to a certain subsection of her fandom. To me it's about an emotional connection viewers have made with this character and kudos Sophie Turner for making that happen. Sansa was conceived as a specific character, which demands a certain delicacy. Let me go out on a limb here and say, if it was Arya the audience will be assured what form of revenge will befall Ramsey soon enough and that assurance would temper the rage somewhat. But Sansa? Her brush with that kind of violence has to be carefully choreographed. She is unique that way amongst POV characters, and certainly as a major character a lot of viewers have taken towards her because of that.

 

So it's not only about where she ends up. The journey matters too, otherwise they become two different characters with the same name. I do believe GRRM was trying, as diplomatically as he possibly can, to remind people that his stories are different in the books. "Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons" is a reference to what he warned about in season 1 when they killed off Mago, back when book deviations didn't seem major. Essentially, when all those butterfly effects have become so huge there's an argument that the story has fundamentally shifted. But that's not a wholesale argument, Arya's story is still intact, for instance.

 

What annoys me is that they threw some logic out of the window in order to make this happen. Littlefinger doesn't know about Ramsey's proclivities, Littlefinger suddenly has to leave WF and conveniently be in KL when this rape happens etc. I'm pretty sure there'll be lots of retrospective patching up but the first priority was to get Sansa raped, in order to elicit a certain reaction. The journey suddenly took drastic turns in order to hit marks that were not signposted, it might be an adventure to some but it gives others nausea. By the volume of displeasure, it would seem this one proved to be a wrong turn.

[BlackberryJam]

D&D have no problem having characters do the same thing they did in the book even if they've removed the context or completely restructured the story so that it no longer really makes sense.  And I never argued that they think they've "totally destroyed" the character; I'm pretty sure they will blithely proceed along, just as they have before.

Oh...I don't think the characters don't make sense. The show is vastly popular with the Unsullied who seem to have a nice grasp on it.

I think the characters are confusing to book readers because of their preconceived notions and expectations.

But the show, well, let's be real. It's pretty freaking fabulous, whether you've read the books or not.

Edited May 21, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

We don't even know if Littlefinger and Sansa will see each other or communicate with one another again.

 

Just as Tyrion wouldn't have needed saving from the Stone Men had Jorah not kidnapped Tyrion in the first place, Sansa wouldn't have needed saving after Joffrey's murder had Littlefinger not murdered Joffrey, nor would she have needed saving in the Eyrie had Littlefinger not kissed her.

 

Incompetence isn't typically a valued trait in a mentor.

 

To re-cap, Littlefinger only "saved" Sansa from dangers that he created. Sansa, however, did save Littlefinger from being tossed out the Moon Door because better the devil you know (Littlefinger) than the one you don't (the Lords of the Vale). She may not make the same decision again.

I think Sansa still sees LF as having saved her from Joffrey/KL in general. Even if LF and Olenna hadn't created an immediate danger for Sansa by murdering Joffrey, it was still in her best interest to be taken away from there because Joffrey likely planned on raping her or having her further abused at some point.

 

As for the Lysa situation, I think in Sansa's mind, Lysa was the one who put Sansa in danger not Petyr. I think Sansa feels that even though LF was wrong to kiss her that it was Lysa who was was crazy enough to have the ultimate overreaction.

 

LF and Sansa are *definitely* seeing each other. I'd be willing to bet on it.

 

As for Ramsey listening to Roose-

 

In the book, Roose is really the only person Ramsey seems afraid of. He also did all that stuff to Theon before he was Roose's heir. He was just his bastard before that. And he wasn't a beloved bastard like Jon Snow. 

I don't know how afraid book Ramsay is of Roose. He killed Roose's son--to me that's the biggest sign that Ramsay isn't all that afraid of his father. 

[BlackberryJam]

We don't even know if Littlefinger and Sansa will see each other or communicate with one another again. Just as Tyrion wouldn't have needed saving from the Stone Men had Jorah not kidnapped Tyrion in the first place, Sansa wouldn't have needed saving after Joffrey's murder had Littlefinger not murdered Joffrey, nor would she have needed saving in the Eyrie had Littlefinger not kissed her. Incompetence isn't typically a valued trait in a mentor. To re-cap, Littlefinger only "saved" Sansa from dangers that he created. Sansa, however, did save Littlefinger from being tossed out the Moon Door because better the devil you know (Littlefinger) than the one you don't (the Lords of the Vale). She may not make the same decision again.

But that's the point. Sansa doesn't know any of those things. She has no idea that LF has set her up in these Perils of Pauline only so he can save her. If she knew that, she'd have acted differently.

In her story right now, who can enlightened her as to LF's mechinations? Who even knows? Sansa certainly isn't going to figure it out herself that quickly and easily. LF can swoop in again and from her perspective, save her.

[SeanC]

If this plot point was going to completely alter the story GRRM has planned for her I have know doubt he would say it.

No, he wouldn't.  He will not criticize the show on any significant point; that's part of the unspoken understanding when the show gives him all kinds of money.  If he has any negative thoughts about it, he'll only give voice to them publicly long after it's over, if at all.

 

But the show, well, let's be real. It's pretty freaking fabulous, whether you've read the books or not.

I absolutely disagree.  The show has many positive elements, but it's regularly a mess on a writing level.

[Advance35]

No, he wouldn't.  He will not criticize the show on any significant point; that's part of the unspoken understanding when the show gives him all kinds of money.  If he has any negative thoughts about it, he'll only give voice to them publicly long after it's over, if at all.

 

 

Yes he would and he has.   He has commented on mistakes he felt the show has made and how it will cause problems in the future.   As has his editor who was unprofessionally vocal about the demise of Selmy.    I don't for a minute think GRRM is bound to defend or mitigate on this show's behalf.   He could have said "no comment" but he chose not too.

 

Though I'll bet HBO is happy with the publicity since this has become the hot button entertainment issue of the moment and it seems to be split down the middle.   I've seen just as many people in defense of the show as bashing it.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Advance35

[BlackberryJam]

 

I absolutely disagree.  The show has many positive elements, but it's regularly a mess on a writing level.

You may feel that way, but it's still captivated you. Whether you say you love it or hate it, Sean, you're fascinated enough by it to post here, other places, but so much effort into it. A terrible show doesn't create this near obsession to follow it. I mean, does anyone care enough to post so much about say...Zero Hour? Does anyone remember Zero Hour? That's terrible, poorly written, hot mess of TV.

Game of Thrones has you, and may others who think it's a mess, watching it every week, following it, posting on message boards, writing articles, creating art and gifsets.

This show is pretty damn special to fascinate so many people.

[Constantinople]

But that's the point. Sansa doesn't know any of those things. She has no idea that LF has set her up in these Perils of Pauline only so he can save her. If she knew that, she'd have acted differently.

In her story right now, who can enlightened her as to LF's mechinations? Who even knows? Sansa certainly isn't going to figure it out herself that quickly and easily. LF can swoop in again and from her perspective, save her.

When Littelfinger tried his "A man without no motive is a man no one suspects" bullshit, Sansa saw through it immediately.

Sansa is, or should be, capable of understanding that there are two alternatives:

1. Littlefinger knew about Ramsay, in which case Littlefinger betrayed her

2. Littlefinger didn't know, in which case he's a moron.

Neither lends itself to Sansa blindly following Littlefinger forever after.

[Avaleigh]

No, he wouldn't.  He will not criticize the show on any significant point; that's part of the unspoken understanding when the show gives him all kinds of money.  If he has any negative thoughts about it, he'll only give voice to them publicly long after it's over, if at all.

 

I absolutely disagree.  The show has many positive elements, but it's regularly a mess on a writing level.

GRRM has made criticism but I definitely think he's less likely to these days since he's gotten into hot water over things he's said wrt the show in the past. 

 

You may feel that way, but it's still captivated you. Whether you say you love it or hate it, Sean, you're fascinated enough by it to post here, other places, but so much effort into it. A terrible show doesn't create this near obsession to follow it. I mean, does anyone care enough to post so much about say...Zero Hour? Does anyone remember Zero Hour? That's terrible, poorly written, hot mess of TV.

Game of Thrones has you, and may others who think it's a mess, watching it every week, following it, posting on message boards, writing articles, creating art and gifsets.

This show is pretty damn special to fascinate so many people.

I disagree that this show is a hot mess on a writing level. To me this show has definitely earned its place in terms of being one of the best shows of all time. There's a lot to like. I have my criticisms like any other book fan but overall I think the showrunners have done a fabulous job and I appreciate that they're at least going to give us an ending to this saga in a timely fashion.

 

Even the people who complain about the show vociferously come across as being very engaged in the story and moved by what they're seeing even when there are things about the show that they find to be frustrating. 

 

If nothing else the show certainly brings out people's emotions so IMO they have to be doing something right. Most everyone is horrified by what happened to Sansa and since this is what the showrunners were going for I'd say they were successful. If people weren't disturbed by the scene then wouldn't that mean that they were doing something wrong? 

 

This brings up something that I'll probably have to take to the book vs TV thread but I will say that I think part of this outcry goes back to a complaint that I've often read from those who think that the show/series is too dark and depressing and lacking in "hell yeah!" moments. People feel that Sansa is overdue for a "hell yeah" moment but IMO hell yeah moments shouldn't be a guarantee and even if they are I'd say that Sansa's are going to come it just isn't going to be right at this moment. I have little doubt that she and the other Starks will triumph in one way or another. In no way am I concerned that they aren't all going to have their moments especially Arya and Sansa. 

 

I've said it many times that the Starks are going to fine and there's little reason to worry about them. It's the Tyrells, Lannisters, Arryns, and Baratheons who unfortunately seem like they're on the way out. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by Avaleigh

[kieyra]

I'm just cynical enough to believe that they chose to throw in another non-book rape because last season's non-book rape got them so much media coverage.

As much as dissecting every single show and adding up its social justice scores has turned into a really exhausting way to watch and discuss TV, I'm getting equally exhausted with rape/torture porn for its own sake (see: Outlander). I think some of these showrunners need to take a step away from premium cable and calm down a little.

[J----av]

I'm just cynical enough to believe that they chose to throw in another non-book rape because last season's non-book rape got them so much media coverage.

As much as dissecting every single show and adding up its social justice scores has turned into a really exhausting way to watch and discuss TV, I'm getting equally exhausted with rape/torture porn for its own sake (see: Outlander). I think some of these showrunners need to take a step away from premium cable and calm down a little.

 Well we should just be thankful they cut the actual book Ramsay wedding rape (and a bunch of other rapes that were in the book but not the show) and toned Ramsays sadistic nature from the books in general

[SeanC]

You may feel that way, but it's still captivated you. Whether you say you love it or hate it, Sean, you're fascinated enough by it to post here, other places, but so much effort into it. A terrible show doesn't create this near obsession to follow it. 

I'm invested in it because I'm invested in the books, and over the course of it I've become a fan of the actors.  As to the idea that a terrible show doesn't create this kind of investment, I have a one-word rebuttal:  Glee.

[Avaleigh]

When Littelfinger tried his "A man without no motive is a man no one suspects" bullshit, Sansa saw through it immediately.

Sansa is, or should be, capable of understanding that there are two alternatives:

1. Littlefinger knew about Ramsay, in which case Littlefinger betrayed her

2. Littlefinger didn't know, in which case he's a moron.

Neither lends itself to Sansa blindly following Littlefinger forever after.

I don't think LF not knowing makes him a moron and I'm not convinced that Sansa will feel this way. Ramsay is Roose's own son and even he was shocked at the way Ramsay treated Theon. 

 

I think Sansa's just going to think that LF couldn't have predicted that Ramsay would be so cruel because it wouldn't occur to LF to be that cruel himself. (I'm saying that Sansa would be thinking this not that I think LF isn't capable of being equally cruel.) Not being able to predict how sick Ramsay is to me would suggest to Sansa that LF isn't on that level. 

 

If anything I feel like Sansa will at first be more inclined to trust him than ever because she'll think he's the main ally she has. I also think that Littlefinger's kisses will seem like a dream in comparison to what she has to endure with Ramsay. 

[Minneapple]

But the show, well, let's be real. It's pretty freaking fabulous, whether you've read the books or not.

There are some good things about the show. It was really good in season one and back then I'd have called it fabulous. But this season to me has felt like a lot of filler or just underwhelming for the most part.

 

The "a lot of people watch it and talk about it on message boards so it must be good" argument could be used for a lot of shows that aren't, well, all that great.

[BlackberryJam]

 

The "a lot of people watch it and talk about it on message boards so it must be good" argument could be used for a lot of shows that aren't, well, all that great.

 

I didn't make that argument. My argument was that it was captivating and fascinating, especially to Sean C, because of the message board participation.

[Minneapple]

I didn't make that argument. My argument was that it was captivating and fascinating, especially to Sean C, because of the message board participation.

 

Since you don't know SeanC, it isn't really fair to assume that.

[benteen]

Jeyne's plot was GRRM's most brutal, but at least he also managed to use it to make a thematic point: Theon was responsible for the death of innocent peasant children in ACOK, now he risks himself to save a girl who is not of high birth. He doesn't save Jeyne because she's a Stark and he owes it to her, but because allowing anyone to be abused that way is not right. His own sufferings have made him capable of empathy even if the girl is no one (so the show will also be lessening Theon: Show Theon will rescue a Stark, a specific rather than a general expression of remorse and recognition of human value - even if he's forgiven after he tells fellow victim Sansa that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon, the peasant boys are still dead).

 

The show managed to make that plot worse by treating rape as something that can be casually added to a female character's storyline. In ADWD, Jeyne is a minor character who only had brief previous appearances: minor characters support the stories of POVs. But the show reduced Sansa, a POV character, to playing Jeyne's role: she is repeating her season 2 storyline, now with rape since the actress turned 18, for the sake of Theon's character development. To me, perhaps the most infuriating thing about the rape scene (because more than anything else, it was utterly unnecessary) is that Book Tyrion's story includes more than one rape, yet Show Tyrion is such a knight in shining armor that we can't be allowed to forget how great he was to Show Sansa. At least Jeyne's rape was about only one male character; on the show, in addition to showing Theon's pain, rape was turned into yet another occasion to remind the viewers that Tyrion was the bestest, most considerate partner in Westeros. So Show Sansa gets Jeyne's rape and she has to prop up a character who, in the books, agreed to rape her, changed his mind, and after enduring a couple of months of sexless marriage was thinking about how she'd cry no more than she had to if he changed his mind again and went through with the rape after all. Show Tyrion gets to live in a rape-free fantasy version of Westeros (and now Essos) where prostitutes are happy to have sex with him and his slavery is set to be a merry escapade, while Show Sansa, who has been endlessly criticized by the fandom for not wanting to have sex with him and not placing his feelings first, gets raped after a reminder of how great her husband #1 was.

 

In addition, Jeyne's rape was only one element of the Winterfell plot in ADWD. On the show, they've made big cuts and focused on the rape, which will lead to Theon rescuing the victim. Sansa, after being raped, will merely be doing what the show chose not to have her do in her own King's Landing storyline: she will be an active participant in her escape from her abuser #2, which will only be character development because the show had her dragged from the Purple Wedding a clueless puppet.

 

Finally, Jeyne might vanish from the story after her rescue (my own guess is that she'll live but I don't know if we'll hear more about her than where she was sent), but whatever Show Sansa does after this will be a question mark - is she doing something Book Sansa would have done, or is she killing Freys and Boltons because her rape sent her on a badass path of revenge (nevermind that for male characters the murders of their families are reason enough, no personal experience of empowering rape required)?

 

I'll praise the show when I believe it deserves it; who knows what will happen to Stannis now that he's coming into conflict with the showrunners' love of the Boltons' thrilling atrocities, but his time on the Wall was far better than I would have expected and the highlight of the first half of season 5 after two poor seasons for Team Dragonstone. Winterfell, however, is a mess where the #1 priority seems to have been making Jeyne's rape a bigger opportunity for articles about the latest GOT controversy by having Sansa raped instead. And for me, it becomes even worse when compared to the way the show sanitized Tyrion's rape of the slave in ADWD: Sansa is interchangeable with ASOIAF's most badly abused female rape victim, but Tyrion can't be given the rape scene he did have in the book (which showed the abuses enabled by the system of slavery that Dany is trying to eradicate, how broken the victims can be and how easy it is to forget what is right when society permits you to do wrong, but eh, let's have dragonfire and quips in Essos instead). GOT has shown no interest in being realistic about the trauma or complexity of different forms of rape: having the 100% evil sadist rape the pretty virgin girl is just about the laziest, least challenging option available, and it's disappointing to see it in 2015 when it feels like it belongs in those old pulp novels that were all "fate worse than death! but ooh, enjoy this scene even as you look forward to the hero's gruesome slaying of the rapist." GRRM can be hard to read, but at least he doesn't pretend Tyrion will always meet a hooker with a heart of gold and gives us things like Cersei's memories of drunken Robert for an examination of marital rape when it's called claiming his rights.

 

I'll wish the very best for Sophie and Alfie in their careers, though. The story is a mess, but none of that is due to their acting: while the Sand Snakes are showing what happens when casting fails to elevate poor material, Sophie and Alfie are making the most of what they're given to do.

 

Some very good points raised here, ElizaD.  Tyrion living in a rape-free version of Westeros as one.  I've said this several times but the writers have gone out of their way to ignore the fact that there's only one Lannister brother who is a rapist and it's not Jaime.  Also, I agree that Theon saving a girl he hardly knows is more heroic.  Though I understand for television wanting him to save a Stark instead (or at least help save a Stark).

 

I've been thinking for at least a week now that we probably won't get the Pink Letter.  So many of the elements have been removed that I just don't see it happening...though we do know that Jon has sent a letter to the Boltons requesting aid for the Watch.  Focusing on the Wildling aspect makes sense as it was primarily Jon's dealings with them that led to the mutiny.  Jon legitimately breaking his oath by getting involved in Northern politics and heading off to face Ramsay was the final breaking point but it was heading towards mutiny nonetheless.

[Hecate7]

GOT has shown no interest in being realistic about the trauma or complexity of different forms of rape: having the 100% evil sadist rape the pretty virgin girl is just about the laziest, least challenging option available, and it's disappointing to see it in 2015 when it feels like it belongs in those old pulp novels that were all "fate worse than death! but ooh, enjoy this scene even as you look forward to the hero's gruesome slaying of the rapist." GRRM can be hard to read, but at least he doesn't pretend Tyrion will always meet a hooker with a heart of gold and gives us things like Cersei's memories of drunken Robert for an examination of marital rape when it's called claiming his rights.

 

 

I'll wish the very best for Sophie and Alfie in their careers, though. The story is a mess, but none of that is due to their acting: while the Sand Snakes are showing what happens when casting fails to elevate poor material, Sophie and Alfie are making the most of what they're given to do.

 

Most cultures IRL DID call marital rape "claiming his rights." The dark underside of the Medieval and Renaissance periods is about women and rape. There's "no slavery," but of course there is. Women are enslaved. They do not inherit, they are traded as currency, and they are almost ALL raped on their wedding nights. We hide from that uncomfortable truth. We imagine romantic princess brides marrying men they loved, or sweet peasants cuddling together by the firelight. But in reality, women didn't get a choice most of the time. If there was even a cottage or a chair to be disputed over, a girl would be married to someone to settle the dispute. The consequence of so many women being wedded to men they didn't desire at all, was NOT a miraculous love at first sight with a stranger at the altar. It was an awkward, coerced "consent" much like Sansa's.

 

So this is not a pretty story about 20th century anachronistic women taking over and living as 21st century women in medieval times. This world doesn't think there is a such thing as marital rape, at all, and most of the men in it would have simply "taken their rights" and moved on. Most of the women would have submitted and moved on, as we saw Danaerys do.  This is where Sansa was always headed. It's the norm. Following the story of a girl, even today, has a 1 in 4 chance of including rape somewhere in the story. In medieval times, I'm betting the odds were even stronger, since marital rape must have been the single most common way a girl lost her virginity back then, and since the father's consent, not the girl's, actually mattered.

 

That is part of the whole point of this story. We're not supposed to believe, either, that this was Sansa's fault. Brienne is one of the greatest fighters of her time, yet she was in danger of rape at one point in the story.

[Hecate7]

Hopefully by the next time they meet, Sansa will have Stannis and the North behind her.

 

Unless Stannis is still holding Robb's rebellion against her, in which case she'll be strung up along with the Boltons.

Some very good points raised here, ElizaD.  Tyrion living in a rape-free version of Westeros as one.  I've said this several times but the writers have gone out of their way to ignore the fact that there's only one Lannister brother who is a rapist and it's not Jaime.  Also, I agree that Theon

 

I don't think even Book!Tyrion is a real rapist. He took the whore's consent as consent, and only afterwards realized that a slave who cannot refuse you, also cannot consent.

 

I prefer Show!Tyrion, obviously. They let him come to the same realization without bedding any more prostitutes. They want him to be a sympathetic character. They are not going to have him rape anyone, and they didn't really mean to have Jaime rape Cersei--they just didn't realize it was rape. Now they're clearer on what the actual definition of rape is. Rape is actually one of the themes of this show. Oppression, violence, rape, dominance, etc....that's been part of the story from the time we found out what Robert and Cersei's marriage was like.

 

Ironically, this last rape was shown for all the right reasons, in all the right ways. Nothing was titillating about it. Nobody rescued her, and she was not in a position to fight.

[Pogojoco]

Unless Stannis is still holding Robb's rebellion against her, in which case she'll be strung up along with the Boltons.

He didn't hold Robb's actions against Jon Snow. 

 

Jon was smart and mentioned Ned dying for the belief of Stannis being the rightful king. If Sansa swears fealty, and talks about how much she hates Lannisters, she might be fine. Stannis needs a Stark in Winterfell to placate the Lyanna Mormonts of the North. 

 

Jon Snow rejected his offer, Bran, Rickon and Arya are missing and presumed dead. Sansa would suit. 

[InsertWordHere]

And for all the (In my view) OTT rage over the Sansa twist I have yet to read a comment about how the showrunners should have handled it if the last scene is something that will play out at some point in TWOW.   Albeit with Harry the Heir.    I honestly feel that if Sansa doesn't suffer the wedding night from hell in the book GRRM would have said something like "It's THEIR story."

If book Sansa is raped by Harry and the show chose to portray that story, I wouldn't blame the showrunners at all. My outrage is 100% based on the fact that Sansa has just wed possibly the biggest monster in all of the Seven Kingdoms when that marriage is extremely unlikely to occur in the books. This after having narrowly escaped one of the other big monsters of the Seven Kingdoms. Just as Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark are not interchangeable in my mind (and no, it's not because Jeyne is "just" a steward's daughter; it's because Sansa has been a POV character since Day one), neither are Ramsay Snow and Harry Hardying. We know next to nothing about the latter except that he is a knight who has [Winds of Winter]

fathered a couple of bastards and seems to be a bit of a player.

If he ends up married to Sansa in the books, he could end up being the gentlest of husbands or he could very well consummate the marriage in much the same manner as Ramsay chose to. Husbands are entitled to rape their wives in Westeros, but I don't hate Robert Baratheon to the same degree as I hate Ramsay and I pity Sansa more than I pitied Cersei. This is probably not a popular thing to say, but it is not the rape itself or the consummation of the marriage that I object to, it's the husband. It's the totally invented for the show storyline that they took pains to set up while (so far) ignoring the absolute best thing the later books have going for them, the Northern loyalty to the Starks and the game-playing of Manderly. 

 

I am not someone who normally complains about book to screen changes, but I hate this one, though I am not surprised in the least that they chose to go there. 

[patchwork]

D&D have no problem having characters do the same thing they did in the book even if they've removed the context or completely restructured the story so that it no longer really makes sense.  And I never argued that they think they've "totally destroyed" the character; I'm pretty sure they will blithely proceed along, just as they have before.

 

Shae being the perfect example of the showrunners changing the story then contorting the character to fit events of the books when it suits them.  

[MadMouse]

Unless Stannis is still holding Robb's rebellion against her, in which case she'll be strung up along with the Boltons.

 

I don't think even Book!Tyrion is a real rapist. He took the whore's consent as consent, and only afterwards realized that a slave who cannot refuse you, also cannot consent.

 

I prefer Show!Tyrion, obviously. They let him come to the same realization without bedding any more prostitutes. They want him to be a sympathetic character. They are not going to have him rape anyone, and they didn't really mean to have Jaime rape Cersei--they just didn't realize it was rape. Now they're clearer on what the actual definition of rape is. Rape is actually one of the themes of this show. Oppression, violence, rape, dominance, etc....that's been part of the story from the time we found out what Robert and Cersei's marriage was like.

 

Ironically, this last rape was shown for all the right reasons, in all the right ways. Nothing was titillating about it. Nobody rescued her, and she was not in a position to fight.

 

Tyrion was part of the gang rape of Tysha. Constantly thinks how horrible a thirteen year old girl is because she doesn't want to sleep with him and considers forcing himself on her multiple times. Threatens Cersei and her children with rape. Tyrion is a monster, made by his family no doubt but still is one. And when it comes to the scene in Sept Benioff and Weiss both called it rape.

[WearyTraveler]

As has his editor who was unprofessionally vocal about the demise of Selmy.  

 

I didn't know this.  Can you point me to a place where I can read his comments? (Thanks!)

[Hecate7]

Tyrion never ONCE thinks Sansa is horrible for not sleeping with him. Not once. He thinks it's quite reasonable that she doesn't want to sleep with him. He thinks about it quite a bit, and in every single instance he thinks he can hardly blame her--who on earth would really want to sleep with Tyrion as he is when he weds Sansa in the books? Seriously---no nose? Ew. He thinks that he'd even be less repellant to her if he were Joffrey, and he may actually be correct. He also thinks she's too young and that lusting after her is pretty gross. He notices that she won't resist him.  Nevertheless, unresisting is not enough for Tyrion. Nor does he actually consider forcing himself on her. He thinks about what her reaction would be, that "she is nothing if not dutiful, this wife of mine," but that's as far as it goes. It's not like he's thinking, "OK, fine, tonight after dinner I'll just go ahead and rape her." He's really more thinking that even if he did do it it would be awful. That she would let him, but it would really, really suck, and that he's not going to do it. 

 

He never threatened any of Cersei's children with rape, either. He threatened that whatever she did to Alayaya, he would do to Tommen.

'Tyrion wanted to laugh at her. It would have been so sweet, so very very sweet, but it would have given the game away. You’ve lost, Cersei, and the Kettleblacks are even bigger fools than Bronn claimed. All he needed to do was say the words.
Instead he looked at the girl’s face and said, “You swear you’ll release her after the battle?” “If you release Tommen, yes.”

He pushed himself to his feet. “Keep her then, but keep her safe. If these animals think they can use her . . . well, sweet sister, let me point out that a scale tips two ways.” His tone was calm, flat, uncaring; he’d reached for his father’s voice, and found it. “Whatever happens to her happens to Tommen as well, and that includes the beatings and rapes.” If she thinks me such a monster, I’ll play the part for her. Cersei had not expected that. “You would not dare.” Tyrion made himself smile, slow and cold. Green and black, his eyes laughed at her. “Dare? I’ll do it myself.”'

 

He was acting. Lying, if you prefer. Bluffing. He needed Cersei to believe she had found the right whore so she wouldn't find Shae. He threatened Cersei with Tommen because it was the best way to keep her from having Alayaya beaten, tortured, etc....while in her custody. Later Tywin has Alayaya publicly whipped, and Tyrion is relieved that he cannot possibly do the same to Tommen, because he didn't actually want to hurt him in the first place.

 

As for the scene in the sept, Benioff and Weiss both denied that the scene in the sept was rape. Benioff, Weiss, Graves, Coster-Waldau, and Lena Heady all went on record saying that the scene in the sept was a scene of consensual sex. It wasn't.

 

As for Tysha's rape, he was 13, and his father ordered him to do it. I see that as more of a case of Tywin raping them both, really.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

If book Sansa is raped by Harry and the show chose to portray that story, I wouldn't blame the showrunners at all. My outrage is 100% based on the fact that Sansa has just wed possibly the biggest monster in all of the Seven Kingdoms when that marriage is extremely unlikely to occur in the books. This after having narrowly escaped one of the other big monsters of the Seven Kingdoms. Just as Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark are not interchangeable in my mind (and no, it's not because Jeyne is "just" a steward's daughter; it's because Sansa has been a POV character since Day one), neither are Ramsay Snow and Harry Hardying. We know next to nothing about the latter except that he is a knight who has [Winds of Winter]

fathered a couple of bastards and seems to be a bit of a player.

If he ends up married to Sansa in the books, he could end up being the gentlest of husbands or he could very well consummate the marriage in much the same manner as Ramsay chose to. Husbands are entitled to rape their wives in Westeros, but I don't hate Robert Baratheon to the same degree as I hate Ramsay

 

Of course, we're assuming the bastards are children born of consensual sex. Harry might not have gotten consent, you know. He doesn't have to, not from a girl whose father he outranks.

[Hecate7]

Thank you, Mya.  That is what I meant.  I was not suggesting a rape of anyone would have been acceptable.  My point was that an act of violence against even a character we don't really know is still disgusting.  I am also wondering if the show will have Sansa forgive Theon since he didn't kill her brothers, forgetting the fact that he did kill two other boys.

She didn't care about the butcher's boy, so why would she care about the two orphaned commoners? The escape of Bran and Rickon was partly enabled by the deaths of those two boys, so she may either feel conflicted, or just be happy that her brothers are alive.

[Advance35]

I didn't know this.  Can you point me to a place where I can read his comments? (Thanks!)

 

Computer link issues right now but it was posted on Winteriscoming.net on May 6th I believe, it was also big google news that week so a search there would bring it up as well.

 

This is probably not a popular thing to say, but it is not the rape itself or the consummation of the marriage that I object to, it's the husband. It's the totally invented for the show storyline that they took pains to set up while (so far) ignoring the absolute best thing the later books have going for them, the Northern loyalty to the Starks and the game-playing of Manderly.

 

I can understand that.   I wonder if the showrunners feel like they had  to make up for Sansa's lack of hardship in Kings Landing.   I make know claim at inside knowledge but one can't deny that Sansa's time in Kings Landing was sanitized (appropriately in respect to the actress being so young), I've seen people who've watched the show alone say Sansa didn't have it THAT bad in Kings Landing.   And I'm thinking to myself, if only you read the book.

 

I very much liked Sansa's sample chapter in TWOW, but MANY extra's would be required.   Despite the success of the show there are still budget constraints to be considered.   The Battle for Winterfell, Hardhome, Mereen, and I assume the show will need a budget to show Kings Landing when winter has REALLY hit.   To say nothing of Bravos.   

 

And though it's cold comfort I do think streamlining also played a big roll in the turn the TV Version of the story has taken.   GRRM has A LOT of plot threads that aren't connected in the book, he dreams of completing them in 2 books, 2 BOOKS????? Pipe dream in my eyes, I can't see a satisfying denumont coming to any of the storylines in 2 books.   I think trimming was definitely needed but what should and could be cut is subjective until we know how the story ends.

[sev]

Fine, let's apply whatever fallacious interpretation of moral relativism, or propose that if person-A has willingly agreed to have sex with person-B, person-B has the right not to stop even when they're seriously hurting person-A...

Fine, Sansa's wedding night is no big deal in the GoT world. Yet, nobody seems to have any doubt on why Theon is horrified and crying in that scene.

[Boundary]

 The show has many positive elements, but it's regularly a mess on a writing level.

 

Totally agree. Everything else is splendid: production design, acting, costume design, most of the choreography, music, CGI, majority of the direction, etc etc. Everything is top notch except, consistently, the writing. Seeing that D&D are the exec producers, overseeing everything, the conclusion must be that they have been spread too thin and neglected the writing. To really do this series justice, they would need a really long time to reread the books before breaking down a new season storylines. That's why season 1 was so good, they had time to ponder the first book and adapt it properly. Now they barely have time, straight after postproduction they shoot a new season; I doubt they reread AFFC and ADWD with any level of thorough before season 5.

[InsertWordHere]

Of course, we're assuming the bastards are children born of consensual sex. Harry might not have gotten consent, you know. He doesn't have to, not from a girl whose father he outranks.

I'm not assuming that at all. In fact, it was exactly the point of my post. That's why I pointed out literally all we know about him. I still doubt he's as awful as Ramsay.

[tennisgurl]

You guy, you know what I just realized? You know what the Dorne story reminds me of? 

 

 A lone heroic man has to save a young girl, who it turns out is his daughter, from a bunch of crazy, violent women who are in charge of a relatively small land by the water, a land where woman have more power than the surrounding lands. The crazy women want to kill the little girl for stupid reasons, and only the lone man can save her from the evil feminists.

 

You guys, the Dorne story is basically the plot of the terrible Nick Cage Wickerman remake! Look out for bees Jaimie!     

[mac123x]

Yes and no. 

 

This show has shown a lot of rape onscreen, and I've found it all disturbing (and occasionally exploitative.) So seeing random Jeyne terrorized by Ramsey would also upset. The endless Theon torture scenes were also pretty terrible, and I suspect show versions of Jeyne scenes would be similar. 

 

I was upset (but also annoyed) by the Sansa scene, not because it was most graphic scene they've shown or even that it was Sansa. Just that the show runners have proven themselves to be incredibly lazy about some things. They had caught up with Book Sansa stuff completely and could've gone anywhere with it. They chose to terrorize Sansa (again), show Ramsey to be a horror of a human being (again) and to show Theon as a broken person (again.) 

 

All their explanations of why it needed to happen just sound hollow and it makes me annoyed at the show.  

 

For me, substituting Sansa for Jeyne made an already horrific "consumation" worse because of the potential for character assassination.

 

Sansa Season 1 = naive Princess Classic

S2 - trauma victim with teeny bits of brainpower showing (manipulating Joffrey into sparing Sir Dontos)

S3 - trauma victim again, but developing a hardened cynical shell

S4 - showing some more brainpower in her interactions with Littlefinger, and finally showing the potential to be a Player in the Game with her lies to the Lords of the Vale.

 

Now it looks like they've potentially undone her season 4 growth, if she goes back to being a damsel in distress requiring rescue from an outside source (Theon, Brienne, Stannis, or candle-in-the-window Batman).  My fear here could be completely unfounded; maybe in the next few episodes Sansa actively rescues herself.  But given their track record of character assassination (*cough* Jaime) I'm not hopeful.

 

It's also possible that the next time we see Sansa, she'll be all "rape?  what rape?" like Cercei after the Sept scene.  I could even accept that (she's become so jaded after Joffrey that she was already expecting her wedding night to be awful), as long as she actively works for her own salvation and/or the demise of the Boltons.

[Calamity Jane]

You may feel that way, but it's still captivated you. Whether you say you love it or hate it, Sean, you're fascinated enough by it to post here, other places, but so much effort into it. A terrible show doesn't create this near obsession to follow it. I mean, does anyone care enough to post so much about say...Zero Hour? Does anyone remember Zero Hour? That's terrible, poorly written, hot mess of TV.

Game of Thrones has you, and may others who think it's a mess, watching it every week, following it, posting on message boards, writing articles, creating art and gifsets.

This show is pretty damn special to fascinate so many people.

I have to agree here.  I didn't even know about the books until the HBO show started and then never watched the show because I didn't have HBO and I didn't much care for what I saw about it.  Then my son talked me into reading the first book, and then I just had to see the series.  I haven't even finished the books, but for me, the show has done a good job of rendering them for viewers.

 

You can't include everything from an epic of this size, just not possible.  One of my biggest disappointments with the Lord of the Rings movies was the exclusion of the Tom Bombadil story, but for dramatic intensity and cohesion, it was the decision to make.  When I want the delights of that little foray, I read the book.  Same here - for all the intricacies, side plots, incidental details (so much about what people eat!!), by all means, I'll read the novels.The show is its own thing, and despite some doubts that all those brothel/various bedroom scenes were really necessary, I find it quite gripping.  I can easily re-watch three or four times and still be gleaning new details, layers of meaning, possibilities, etc.  For me, the show has succeeded, I would think beyond the creators' wildest imaginings.  

[loki567]

I'm just cynical enough to believe that they chose to throw in another non-book rape because last season's non-book rape got them so much media coverage.

As much as dissecting every single show and adding up its social justice scores has turned into a really exhausting way to watch and discuss TV, I'm getting equally exhausted with rape/torture porn for its own sake (see: Outlander). I think some of these showrunners need to take a step away from premium cable and calm down a little.

 

I think that's it. Supporters are bending over backwards to give psychological complexity and historical context to Sansa's rape, but when have these showrunners ever really proven they're willing to handle something like this in a mature manner? They followed up Theon's castration with a sausage joke. I'm assuming something similar next episode where Ramsey makes some sort of cruel jab at Sansa, Sansa goes to Theon with an escape plan, and the whole thing is almost completely brushed over. 

 

So yeah, I agree that these writers needed a big scene to end the episode on, they thought another rape scene would get them attention, and the whole thing will be irrelevant to the story going forward. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by loki567

[tennisgurl]

While the rape scene was disturbing, and to me, unnecessary (I`ll see what they do next), I appreciate that they didn't show us the rape happen. Its really a lot less graphic than the shit Ramsey got into in the books, for which I am very appreciative. I`m still not happy with what is happening to my favorite character right now though (Sansa is my show BFF who I want all good things for).

 

However, what really upsets me this season is the Dorn plot. I watch the show with my sister, who is unsullied, and when I told her how annoyed I was with the Dorn plot (she thought the Dorn stuff was just flat), so I told her what the plot was in the books (sometimes I tell her when things change in the show, but I promised not to spoil things that will happen later if I can) and now she is just as disappointed as I am, because the book plot sounds so much cooler! Granted, the Sand Snakes and Dorn was a little slow, and probably wont matter much in the long run, but I would prefer to watch Arianne and the Sand Snakes be somewhat smart and work with Marcella, instead of being a bunch of pointlessly evil idiots. Cool clothes and weapons do not interesting characters make, show. Plus, they screwed up Ellaria, one of my favorite minor characters, played by a great actress. What the hell? 

 

I missed Jon and Stannis. Everytime they cut to NOTdorn, I wanted to see what they were up to. 

[screamin]

Sansa wouldn't have needed saving after Joffrey's murder had Littlefinger not murdered Joffrey, nor would she have needed saving in the Eyrie had Littlefinger not kissed her.

 

But that's the point. Sansa doesn't know any of those things. She has no idea that LF has set her up in these Perils of Pauline only so he can save her. If she knew that, she'd have acted differently.

 

 

Wait, what? Littlefinger proudly explained to Sansa how he'd set up Joffrey's murder with the poison Sansa was wearing around her neck. That wasn't concealed at all. And Sansa was right there when Littlefinger kissed her in front of Lysa, setting off her attempted murder of Sansa. How could Sansa not know these things? In the book, it's made clear in Sansa's internal monologue that she's reluctantly settling into Stockholm syndrome with LF because he's dangerous and she sees no better alternative, and even in the show Littlefinger is clearly the culprit in implicating Sansa in Joffrey's murder AND in setting off crazy Lysa's murderous jealousy.

 

I'd say that LF's excusing himself with Sansa when he returns that he'd forgotten to bribe a servant to tell him about Ramsey's affinity for torture and his recent flaying of Lord Cerwyn and his wife (so it was perfectly okay to leave her alone with him) might be the third strike against him. Unless the showrunners have made up their minds that Sansa's a permanent victim.

[benteen]

In the books, I still don't know how Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned isn't public knowledge.  On the show, Catelyn accuses him of betrayal but whether she heard specifically what he did (pulling a knife on Ned) is unknown.  In the books, I can understand the exact details being unknown to the North but given how close she was to the Royal Court, I have no idea how Book Sansa (or Show Sansa) doesn't know what Littlefinger did to her father.  Slynt's involvement certainly wasn't a secret.

 

Did Tyrion know?  I can't imagine him not telling Sansa when they were married.

Edited May 22, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

In the books, I still don't know how Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned isn't public knowledge.  On the show, Catelyn accuses him of betrayal but whether she heard specifically what he did (pulling a knife on Ned) is unknown.  In the books, I can understand the exact details being unknown to the North but given how close she was to the Royal Court, I have no idea how Book Sansa (or Show Sansa) doesn't know what Littlefinger did to her father.  Slynt's involvement certainly wasn't a secret.

 

Did Tyrion know?  I can't imagine him not telling Sansa when they were married.

Would Tyrion think that Sansa didn't already know? Furthermore would Tyrion think that there was any particular reason to warn Sansa off of Littlefinger or at least from trusting him? I don't think Tyrion is aware of how deep the Cat obsession was/is and how it's now been transferred over to Sansa. 

 

Wait, what? Littlefinger proudly explained to Sansa how he'd set up Joffrey's murder with the poison Sansa was wearing around her neck. That wasn't concealed at all. And Sansa was right there when Littlefinger kissed her in front of Lysa, setting off her attempted murder of Sansa. How could Sansa not know these things? In the book, it's made clear in Sansa's internal monologue that she's reluctantly settling into Stockholm syndrome with LF because he's dangerous and she sees no better alternative, and even in the show Littlefinger is clearly the culprit in implicating Sansa in Joffrey's murder AND in setting off crazy Lysa's murderous jealousy.

 

I'd say that LF's excusing himself with Sansa when he returns that he'd forgotten to bribe a servant to tell him about Ramsey's affinity for torture and his recent flaying of Lord Cerwyn and his wife (so it was perfectly okay to leave her alone with him) might be the third strike against him. Unless the showrunners have made up their minds that Sansa's a permanent victim.

I can see how Sansa doesn't blame Littlefinger for Lysa's attempt to murder her. That was all on Lysa. I don't care if Lysa had seen Littlefinger and Sansa having sex, that's no excuse to throw or threaten to throw her niece through the Moon Door. 

 

As for blaming LF for being in a situation where she needed to be rescued from KL--Sansa was already in a position where she needed to be rescued and she certainly felt that way especially when she thought she'd missed her chance to go with LF the first time around. She also knows that the Tyrells were in on setting her up and they weren't the ones to help get her to safety. Even if Joffrey hadn't been murdered Sansa would still want somebody to help her escape KL so I don't think it matters to her that LF was one of the reasons she had to drop everything and run right then and there. Honestly, with the dark mood Joffrey was in that day, even for him, who knows what it might have pleased him to put Sansa through? 

[SeanC]

In the books, I still don't know how Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned isn't public knowledge.  On the show, Catelyn accuses him of betrayal but whether she heard specifically what he did (pulling a knife on Ned) is unknown.  In the books, I can understand the exact details being unknown to the North but given how close she was to the Royal Court, I have no idea how Book Sansa (or Show Sansa) doesn't know what Littlefinger did to her father.  Slynt's involvement certainly wasn't a secret.

 

Did Tyrion know?  I can't imagine him not telling Sansa when they were married.

In the show it doesn't sound like Catelyn heard anything specific, she just assumed based on the fact that Ned is dead and Baelish is still working for the Lannisters that he betrayed him.

 

Tyrion knows what went down, as I recall, but there'd be no reason for him to tell Sansa.  The book Littlefinger made sure to keep his distance from Sansa, so there was never any reason to warn her against him (the Hound, who was also there, might also have said something if there'd been a reason).

 

That is, incidentally, a plot hole created by the show's Varys plot in season 3.  The easiest thing Varys could do to stop Sansa from leaving with Littlefinger would be to tell her that he betrayed her father (whether himself or via intermediaries, like the Tyrells), but since the plot requires that Sansa can't know that, Varys doesn't do that, and instead engages in a variety of more complicates schemes that preserve Sansa's ignorance.

[DigitalCount]

Tyrion was part of the gang rape of Tysha.

Technically in that scenario both are victims of Tywin Lannister. I understand that a lot of people are upset by Tyrion's whitewashing, but I'll never understand why this keeps getting brought up as a point against Tyrion, a differently-abled teenage boy in the shadow of Mr. Castamere and his troops.

 

But that's a discussion for another thread.

Edited May 22, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Holmbo]

These are marriages arranged against the girls' wills. We don't like to face what that really means, which is that for centuries women did not get a say in sex. Who they had it with, when, and why, were all decided for them by other people. And we especially don't like to confront that this means Wedding Night Rape, most of the time. Romeo and Juliet were the exception, not the rule. We don't want to look back at history and think that we come from generation upon generation of Wedding Night Rape. But we do, most of us. There's an occasional anomaly, and of course there are girls "making the best of it," but for the most part, more sex was rape, than wasn't. It was assumed that women didn't want sex anyway and so it wasn't that big a deal for them to have nonconsensual sex all their lives in order to produce heirs.

i totally agree. Except i want to point out that most of us just comes from a long string of pesants who, even if they probably most led horrible lives, choose who to marry. Maybe there's some slave rape in there too though. I know at least in Sweden slavery was common for a fairly long time and I asume most other countries have a history of it aswell.

[Pete Martell]

 

For me, substituting Sansa for Jeyne made an already horrific "consumation" worse because of the potential for character assassination.

 

Sansa Season 1 = naive Princess Classic

S2 - trauma victim with teeny bits of brainpower showing (manipulating Joffrey into sparing Sir Dontos)

S3 - trauma victim again, but developing a hardened cynical shell

S4 - showing some more brainpower in her interactions with Littlefinger, and finally showing the potential to be a Player in the Game with her lies to the Lords of the Vale.

 

Now it looks like they've potentially undone her season 4 growth, if she goes back to being a damsel in distress requiring rescue from an outside source (Theon, Brienne, Stannis, or candle-in-the-window Batman).  My fear here could be completely unfounded; maybe in the next few episodes Sansa actively rescues herself.  But given their track record of character assassination (*cough* Jaime) I'm not hopeful.

 

One of the disturbing elements of Sansa's story is how it repeatedly punishes her for any attempt at forward movement. It isn't even a situation like someone seemingly finding a happier path before they lose it all - it's happened so many times now that it makes me wonder if the show sees her as not knowing her place and needing to be reminded of it. This is the fifth straight season where she allows herself to think she's going to find some hint of peace or happiness only for it to be torn away. And some seem to see the scenes where she rebuffed Reek/Theon and Myranda as her being cold or uppity and needing to be humbled. I just hope the show does not feel this is the only way Sansa will ever be seen as worthy. 

[Oscirus]

Show Tyrion gets to live in a rape-free fantasy version of Westeros (and now Essos) where prostitutes are happy to have sex with him and his slavery is set to be a merry escapade

 

How exactly is a slavery where if they run across the wrong person that Tyrion will get killed and castrated a merry escapade?

 

As for Littlefinger, so far, since she's been in his care, she's been almost killed, repeatedly kissed by that slimy snake and left to fend for herself. Hell, she practically told him if he left her there that she would be raped and he responded with one of his slimy kisses. I believe that she's pretty much over him now. Especially once she realizes that she doesn't need him.

 

Did Tyrion know?  I can't imagine him not telling Sansa when they were married.

 

 

If Tyrion would've known then he would've cleared LIttlefinger off the counsel when he was the hand. His first order of business as the hand was to remove everybody that betrayed the previous two hands. But yea, no idea why Varys kept that tidbit to himself.

[SeanC]

If Tyrion would've known then he would've cleared LIttlefinger off the counsel when he was the hand. His first order of business as the hand was to remove everybody that betrayed the previous two hands. But yea, no idea why Varys kept that tidbit to himself.

Littlefinger betrayed the previous Hand by siding with Cersei.  Tyrion would not remove his own side's loyalists on the basis of their siding with him.  Slynt was removed for carrying out the massacre of the bastards, and because Tyrion wanted to control the City Watch himself.