S10.E22: The Prisoner

[oliverwendell]

 

Does anyone here remember the poor nurse way back in 4.22 that Sam kidnapped and murdered just so he could drink her blood?

 

The difference between the heinous crimes Dean is committing now and Sam killing the nurse is that, while Sam was under the influence of a corrupting force (the demon blood), he also believed he was acting for a noble purpose:  killing Lillith, stopping the Apocalypse, saving the world.  Dean is also under the influence of a corrupting force, but he had no discernibly "noble" or "good" reason to kill that kid.  He's just a cold, cruel, killing machine.  That's why they'd better have something pretty damned redemptive planned for him or, even better, a way to establish beyond any doubt that MoC Dean is as different from regular Dean (and therefore as unaccountable for his actions) as Soulless Sam was from regular Sam.

 

Seriously, I don't think anything Sam has ever done is as bad as killing that kid.  Nor do I think Sam has ever said anything crueler to Dean than what Dean said to Sam tonight.  This storyline has been way too slow to develop, in my opinion, but now that they've finally gotten down to it, the writers are definitely not doing this Mark of Cain thing halfway.  Now let's see if Dean gets anything close to the redemption story Sam got in Swan Song!

Edited May 14, 2015 by fourteenwords

[SueB]

I just had a conversation with my mom and she pointed out that Crowley  could have sent that message to Rowena herself somehow without sam, so why let sam live? Was it for dean?

He let Sam live because he realized that the hex bag finally purged ALL of the "good" out of him.  And he wants Sam to live with the consequences of making "the Devil You Know" into something REALLY worse than he was before.

 

I'm on the fence about Rowena helping Crowley.  I think she underestimated him.  She's clever, but he's Crowley.  I think he was just more powerful than she realized.  It's possible that she did in fact "kill him", but like the Mark, it wasn't enough to REALLY kill him but instead restore his full demon self.  Sort of like Crowley being a Dean parallel here.

 

Oh Dean.  I love you.  Yes, this is supposed to be a moral event horizon.  But I'm going to give you the "altered state" pass.  I'm sure you won't if you eventually get 'fixed'.  I had zero problem with everyone he took out EXCEPT NerdyStein.  And NerdyStein is Dean's nurse (as ahrtee pointed out).  And you know, I'm kinda okay with it.  And here's why: If Dean was able to stop himself from killing that kid, then Dean would really be "okay".  He would have kept his White-ish hat.  He only killed 'monsters' who REALLY deserved it, and he did it in uber Bad Ass fashion.  OTOH, we need to feel like SOMETHING has to change.  We can't like this Dean.  This Dean has lost his humanity and become a supernatural creature with really shady ethics.  Again, the kid did not deserve to die IMO ... but it also wasn't some little innocent child either.  He did just choose to end another persons life to save his own.  So, Dean is over the line but I'll argue it wasn't mindless.  It was a parallel to Cain. He has taken the position that a bad bloodline must end. Just like Cain. 

 

Another issue: what did Dean really KNOW about this kid?  He was young. He claimed he hated his family. But Dean didn't know he killed that other kid. But Dean also didn't know -- maybe he had killed many others.  So he didn't have any new organs and he had glasses.  That did lend credence that he hadn't been altered yet.  OTOH, maybe the Stynes waited until a certain age.  And it looked like the kid had just reached it.  My point: WE know what the kid did or did not do.  Dean did not.  I agree with Cas, he should have let the kid live because he didn't have evidence he was a killer (whereas he pretty much had the goods on everyone else he killed).  But I can also see in his Mark-influenced brain how he wasn't going to take that risk.

 

Bottom line:  Dean's different now. He is NOT the Dean he was (and said so).  And I don't think I want this Dean to stay around. 

 

Next topic: Sam

 

Yo Sam.  You did NOT deserve what Dean said to you.  I know that's not what he think, but it's true - Charlie CHOSE the risk.  I have no problem with him wanting to kill Crowley.  So I won't hold him responsible for all the future evil Crowley does.  OTOH, you're still in league with Rowena.  This is not smart. 

 

Cas. Oh my heart.  I'm so glad you reminded Dean that everyone else was going to die and he, Cas, would have to deal with whatever Dean becomes.  And I'm so glad Dean did not kill him.  They've set the groundwork for Cas not being at full power but a little clarification would be nice.

 

Bottom Line 2: An excellent penultimate (who says that?) episode IMO.  I was riveted by the entire thing.  I'm okay with them showing why keeping a supernatural demonic tramp stamp is a BAD IDEA.  I want my good guys good. I don't want to hear people say he should just keep it forever.  Because this Dean is shitty and only sometimes fun.  So.... let's get him fixed (but let's use something other than Rowena and the Book of the Dead).

Edited May 14, 2015 by SueB

[miles2go]

Well, that was . . . intense.  And it's only the penultimate episode -- what's the finale going to be like?

 

Dean was awesome.  And scary.  Very scary.

Crowley also awesome, especially with the red eyes.

Cas and Sam seemed wishy-washy and foolish by comparison.

 

Are there any  Stynes left in Europe?  If so, we may not be done with them, yet.  

[SueB]

Are there any  Stynes left in Europe?  If so, we may not be done with them, yet.  

 

They may or may not "go there", but the door is open.  There are Stynes all over the world.  Eldon claimed they were a huge family.

[missbonnie]

Well, that was slightly terrifying. If they kill off Castiel or Crowley next week I'm out. Rowena can go, I just can't handle Cas dying, especially by Dean's hand and Crowley is too much fun to kill off.

[Rammfan]

Damn! I must be the only one who was disappointed that he didn't kill Cass.

:(

That kid was part of that horrible family. Eventually he would have become just like them. I have no problem with what Dean did.

They killed Charlie.

I did hate that Dean said that it should be Sam up in that pyre. THAT is horrible and unforgivable to me.

I was in a true panic about their home being burned down.

Crowley is back!! About damn time.

Fantastic episode.

 

I agree with almost everything, except the bit about Cas.

 

This was the most gripping episode of the year. I LOVE LOVE LOVE bad-ass mother-fucker Dean. OMG, I thought I was in love all this time but apparently I wasn't because now...holy crap! Hot, deadly, competent...oh, be still my heart!

 

As for the Styne kid -- they've been in this situation before. Remember the rugaru? Travis left the baby alive and wham! Travis ended up being killed by him when he grew up. Remember the shifter girl? Bobby had her locked in an attic instead of killing her and wham! she ends up killing a bunch of people. Remember Kate? S&D left her alive and she turned her sister and her sister killed a bunch of people. They made a mistake letting her go again instead of putting her down. So when Dean was holding the gun on the kid, I said, "Kill him, Dean. You know you have to," and when he pulled the gun up, I was "Damn, do it!" and then he finally did the smart/right thing and killed him. Don't leave him alive to try to get revenge someday when he changes his mind about how much he hates his family.

 

There's only one thing that Dean did in the episode that bothered me: How harsh he was with Sam. I understand why he was, why he said what he did, it was the only way to even try to get through to Sam how serious he was about Sam giving up on trying to cure him and it still didn't work. What Dean said to Cas, about the cure being paid for with blood, coming with a price that Dean doesn't want to pay, is absolutely right.

 

As for why Dean can beat up Cas? Well, we know that angels can beat demons, but so could Cain. Cain could beat even entire houses full of demons. Dean has Cain's power, he's that powerful. Remember when Cas got the small amount of his own grace back, when he spread his wings they were tattered and ragged. This means that he's not at full strength. Cas is weak (which is probably why they didn't ask him to bring Charlie back), he doesn't want to hurt Dean, and Dean is super-charged with the strength of the Mark. Therefore, he was able to beat Cas. I gasped when Dean stabbed at Cas, remembering what Cain had said, and was relieved that he stabbed a book instead.

 

And Crowley was scary again! OMG, so thrilling! I was genuinely afraid for Sam, there.

 

Just an incredibly fantastic episode from start to finish. And Ackles, my god...unbelievable, stunning talent. I was in awe.

[Altered Reality]

Well, that was intense.  This Dean is scary!  And ouch, poor Sammy, having to hear his brother thinks he should be dead! (I was unspoiled and totally not prepared for that).

 

I did wonder if Rowena was trying to kill or cure Crowley with her hex bag.  It's possible she herself wasn't sure which way it would go.  Mind, I think straight up killing Crowley would be the safer option for her, so who knows.

 

And it's interesting how we can see the same images yet perceive things differently.  Until Cass referred to NerdyStyne as I teenager, I read him as college age.  1st year maybe, but still older and (IMHO) a little more culpable in his participation in and/or lack of action against the family "game".

 

Oh and I thought his Dad's threat wasn't that they would kill him, but rather they'd start "enhancing" him against his will.  Which I actually thought was a worse threat than being killed, but that probably says something about me that I don't want to think about ;D

 

So glad the bunker is (mostly) intact.  I guess the thing is warded against all evil, but no one thought to reinforce the front door against bombs!  But the books, aaaaaaggggghhhhh the books.  Made me want to cry.

 

And Cass, oh Cass.  Between his ineffectual fight with the Gregori and now this, I'm thinking his grace is not nearly as restored as it seemed.  At least I hope that's what this is and not a writer's oops.

[AwesomO4000]

 So.... let's get him fixed (but let's use something other than Rowena and the Book of the Dead).

 

I'm kind of wishy-washy on this. I kind of don't want Charlie's death to be for nothing, nor do I want everything Sam has done and is trying to do to be nothing but a huge screw up (again). So while I hope that Dean somehow finds a way to get out of this somewhat himself, I do somehow hope that the book has something to do with it and / or is somehow necessary. Otherwise what was the point of Sam's arc here but to show that no matter how much Sam wants to help Dean and to try to repay some of what Dean has done for him in the past, he's only going to be the screw-up brother who always causes more problems when he tries to help and is always the one who needs saving. Why can't they work together to save Dean?

[GirlyGeek]

Wow, I was so anxious and on edge the whole episode.
We (my son and husband and I) kept saying "This Dean is awesome!" and then I finally said "um.. until he kills someone we *like*!" cause I was getting pretty scared for all people in Dean's vicinity.

 

Love that they went there with Dean.  Had to happen. But he was terrifying.

Sam didn't deserve the talk by the pyre, but this is not regular Dean, so I can't get too upset about it.  I had the blanket up over my mouth during the fight with Cass, though- totally bought that Dean was about to kill him.  whew, disaster averted.  I told my son "they can't have Dean kill Cass... the fan girls alone would burn whole cities to the ground".  He agreed.  He knows some fangirls, lol

 

Whew, for a not-finale, that was crazy.

[ahrtee]

Sorry if I misuse the quotes--I'm new to this forum and haven't quite figured out how things work. 

 

 

The difference between the heinous crimes Dean is committing now and Sam killing the nurse is that, while Sam was under the influence of a corrupting force (the demon blood), he also believed he was acting for a noble purpose:  killing Lillith, stopping the Apocalypse, saving the world.  Dean is also under the influence of a corrupting force, but he had no discernibly "noble" or "good" reason to kill that kid.  He's just a cold, cruel, killing machine.

Not that I disagree (completely), but you're using the "end justifies the means" excuse that Sam used over and over again, especially in seasons 3 and 4 (ie, being willing to kill Nancy the virgin in Jus in Bello or Bobby in Mystery Spot or working with Ruby at all), and which is the same thing he's saying here, about using the Book and Rowena.  I didn't like it then and I'm very disappointed that Sam is still using it now, after everything that's happened in the last 6 or 7 years.  Especially when everyone keeps pointing out what a bad idea it is, how dangerous it is, and how dark spells come with a heavy price.  

 

Dean's reason for killing the kid here (I think) was the same one he had in killing Amy:  his belief (even if mistaken) that evil will always come through, and it's better to kill them *before* they do something (else) horrible.  As Rammfan pointed out, there have been too many times that they let someone go and regretted it (even Sam, who had always tried to give "monsters" the chance at first, gave into that, by killing Dean's Amazon daughter and by refusing to give Benny any "benefit of the doubt" at all.)    I actually think here Dean thought he was *saving* the kid from becoming a monster, or at least saving the world from him.   It was cold, yes, but it wasn't mindless.  He honestly did think about it, which might actually make it worse.  And as several people here said, he'd better have some damn good redemption coming up, even though I'm sure he won't be forgiving himself. 

 

 

Seriously, I don't think anything Sam has ever done is as bad as killing that kid.  Nor do I think Sam has ever said anything crueler to Dean than what Dean said to Sam tonight.

Honestly, I still haven't forgiven Sam for The Purge speech.  That, to me, was the cruelest thing I've ever heard a character say on this show. (Not the part about not saving him, which I know wasn't meant the way it sounded;  rather, when Sam told him flat out that he had never saved anyone or done anything good, that everything he'd ever done was for selfish reasons, and that he didn't want to be brothers any more.  That basically negated Dean's whole sense of self and his only source of self-worth.)  And he's still never told Dean that he forgave him ("I lied" just isn't the same somehow.) 

 

But I will admit that Dean's comment to Sam tonight was unexpected and painfully cruel.  I'm chalking it up to the anger that's been building up since he found out about the Book, and mostly the influence of the MoC, which seems to release the inhibitions, especially between brain and mouth.  Remember the horrible things DemonDean gleefully said to Sam when he was tied up in the bunker.  I don't think this was specifically designed to make Sam bleed; it was just Dean saying what he felt without filters, and in too much pain to care about its effect.

 

[rue721]

I watched the entire episode thinking "who are these assholes?" What happened to the decent, well meaning guys who wanted to help people? From the beginning when Dean was blaming Sam for Charlie's death (a grown woman who made her own choices) and Sam stating he was going to save Dean because Dean was all he had to Dean finally going over the edge slaughtering people including a boy to Cas continuing to be weak and useless, I don't like any of these characters any more. And they once meant a great deal to me.

 

I agree completely. They were all so despicable and/or pathetic.

 

What bothers me is that none of them are even trying to be good anymore. None of them seem to have a moral compass anymore and none of them seem bothered by that.

 

At this point, I don't understand what we're supposed to even be hoping will happen. That someone will be strong enough to put Dean down like a rabid dog? There's no one to root for, there's nothing to hope for...This episode went over the line for me. I don't mean that I'm going to ~rage quit~ (who am I kidding, I'll be here to the bitter end), I mean that I just didn't enjoy watching it. It wasn't bad per se, but there was just sickening thing after sickening thing and...it was too much for me, it just turned my stomach. I don't want to see a bunch of cruel, arrogant, violent people taunt and gruesomely kill one another.

 

Well anyway, as for this episode specifically:

 

Dean's taunts that he's unkillable worry me. I wonder what kind of payoff that's setting up. Probably that, instead of being killed, Dean will be subject to "a fate worse than death." I guess that's what Crowley is subjecting Sam to, too, since he decided to let him live.

 

The only part of the episode I really liked was Crowley. Same as last week (with the hamster) I guess. He was on such an emotional roller-coaster in his confrontation with Sam. But I kind of love when he's a neurotic mess like that. Plus, he was actually frightening when he went all red eyes. It's always fun when Crowley turns on the "scary." Kind of weird he called his mom "that ginger bitch," though. "Ginger"? He doesn't have a more personal insult he wants to use, he's going to harp on her hair color? *shrug*

 

The montage for Charlie was pretty moving, and I didn't even ever particularly warm up to Charlie. It's kind of mind-blowing to think she's dead now.

 

By the time Dean had slaughtered virtually all the Stynes and the teenage geek was the only one left, I had no doubt that Dean was going to murder the kid. The way he interrupted Jacob (?) to say that he'd already killed his father was very cold-blooded to me. The way he told Jacob and the kid he was about to kill them right before he did it was also very cold-blooded. Those little touches weren't necessary or done out of self-defense. They were cruelty for the sake of cruelty. The whole episode, Dean was very cruel, sadistic. I guess now I can see why he and Crowley get on so well!

 

ETA:

I think that Dean murdered the kid because it was cleaner and easier to just kill him, rather than to figure out how to "save" him. It was convenient for Dean to just murder him, and because Dean is apparently a sociopath now, he didn't see/feel any compelling reason not to just wipe him out and be done with it.

Edited May 14, 2015 by rue721

[Omegamom]

Whoa.

SCARY Dean. Dayum. *Very* scary Dean. No humor, no lightness, no thinking about the killing at all. Remember when they considered killing humans (hmmm...are the Farnkenheimers still humans?) a Bad Thing?

I was faked out by the end of the fight with Cas. I gasped at Dean stabbing downward with the angel blade. But there was no flash of blue-white light or sound effects? I was just beginning to wonder if Cas had pulled a slick doppelgänger like Gabriel did in the fight with Lucifer.

So was Cas deliberately holding back, or is he generally weaker because his grace is still "just a sliver", or was Dean empowered by the MOC like Cain was (in Executioner's Song, Cain handled Cas like a rag doll)?

I also kept hoping Cas would do a verbal callback to the fight in S08...a "this isn't you, Dean...we need you...I need you..." kinda thing. What can I say? I'm both a hopeless romantic *and* love good parallelism. ;-)

So. After promising Dean he'd put an end to cracking the BoTD, as soon as that uber-delayed email came through (an entire day! They need to complain to their ISP! ;-) ), Sam reverses course. And lets Rowena walk all over him, though he hates Crowley so much her pulling "I won't translate the book until you kill my son" doesn't strike him as reneging on their deal. I do like the diametrically opposed relationships Sam and Dean have with Crowley.

I was terrified that the LoL was going to be torched, and all that lovely knowledge would be lost. It's a sign that the Frankhoffers truly are monsters--anyone who burns a library of any kind, especially a totally unique occult and magical library like the MoL's collection, is automatically a real villain in my book. And really really stupid, because that hoard of magical information would come in handy to anyone interested in world domination.

Dean killing the high school (college? I don't know many high schools that name their buildings the way colleges and universities do) nerd was upsetting indeed. I was hoping he would be adopted by the boys and rescued from a monstrous destiny.

All in all, pretty intense.

[smree]

I loved this episode. With the mark of cain and everything that has been implied about that throughout the season I think Dean had to cross a line. We've been told but not shown until now that it turns you into a cold killing machine. I also don't think it ruins the 'hero' Dean Winchester, because IMO this is not Dean Winchester, his soul, everything has been corrupted by the mark. I see it as similar to when soulless Sam let Dean be turned into a vampire and blood drinking Sam killed the nurse ect In none of those scenarios was it the winchesters as who they truly are. 

 

I'm really glad that we seem to have the 'king' of hell back but feel so sorry for Sam, he's well overdue a win at this stage and you can clearly see his desperation to save his brother.

 

I loved the acting from Jensen, Jared, Misha and Mark this episode. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by smree

[cheatincheetos]

I think it's very possible. Rowena is smart and a strategist or at least an opportunist. She seemed to really want her son to be a true King of Hell and not the Winchesters'  little bitch. She can go to Crowley and say that she did that to get him back on track and he might appreciate it.  He thinks she failed, where she might prove her worth. Worst. Helicopter. Mom EVER.

That was my guess, that she never really wanted Sam to kill her son, and was going to flutter in with her usual whiny dramatics to warn Crowley, just before Sam arrived .

Edited May 14, 2015 by cheatincheetos

[Aeryn13]

In theory I wouldn`t have that much of a problem with Dean killing young Frankenstein. Yes, it is a dark act. But we frigging needed one to see that the Mark actually IS corrupting him. Playing mini-golf is not a sign of losing your soul, as far as I`m concerned. 

 

Also, I consider very few things truly iredeemable. I couldn`t even watch shows like Angel and Xena, several current vampire shows and lots of others otherwise. Compared to what some characters did and do in those, this was small fries. 

 

That said, this show just handles those things terribly. The writers have no talent for dark stories and even less talent for good redemption tales. So, this all has the potential to go epically bad.   

 

Good that Crowley is back to being evil. This wishy-washy half-humanity thing was just a big turn-off to me.

 

I did like that Dean and Cas had a significant scene together after ages. It wasn`t a nice, fluffy scene but at least it made me feel invested in it. I don`t think they had ANY scene this year between them that wasn`t completely blah.

[Ria]

Don't leave him alive to try to get revenge someday when he changes his mind about how much he hates his family.

 

This wasn't a monster. This was a human being, a teenage boy. Nothing about his future was set in stone. Dean threw away everything he believed in, every value he had, with that act.

 

 

I also don't think it ruins the 'hero' Dean Winchester, because IMO this is not Dean Winchester, his soul, everything has been corrupted by the mark.

It's true this is not really Dean. However it's a consequence of his taking the mark without caring for the consequences. And these are the consequences.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Ria

[Rammfan]

This wasn't a monster. This was a human being, a teenage boy. Nothing about his future was set in stone. Dean threw away everything he believed in, every value he had, with that act.

 

It's true this is not really Dean. However it's a consequence of his taking the mark without caring for the consequences. And these are the consequences.

He was a teenage (college age) boy from a centuries-old bad, bad witchy murderous corrupting family who had just butchered another kid. He was going to go bad and it was good that Dean put him down. However, it's not all Dean there. How much of Dean is left is up for debate, but it still isn't entirely Dean. Now, will Dean get a redemption arc like Sam did after he killed a nurse, a victimized entirely innocent human being, and drank all of her blood and it was never mentioned again? I don't know. I'm not sure he needs one. He doesn't need one for me to still keep loving him and rooting for him.

 

Abaddon had to die and Dean had to take on the mark to do it and he's been paying ever since. The consequences of that act have never stopped, you're right. How much havoc would Abaddon have wreaked on them and the world if she had lived? I wonder if it was worth it, but since we can't ever know...

[smree]

This wasn't a monster. This was a human being, a teenage boy. Nothing about his future was set in stone. Dean threw away everything he believed in, every value he had, with that act.

 

It's true this is not really Dean. However it's a consequence of his taking the mark without caring for the consequences. And these are the consequences.

You could also view it that if he hadn't taken the mark and killed abaddon then a lot more 'innocents' would have died. I always feel that the Winchesters are left with one crappy choice or another and no matter what they do there are consequences.

[Demented Daisy]

He was a teenage (college age) boy from a centuries-old bad, bad witchy murderous corrupting family who had just butchered another kid. He was going to go bad and it was good that Dean put him down. 

 

Then we don't have anything to worry about, do we?  He's just being Dean, doing what Dean has always done, which is hunt evil.  There was a chance the kid would someday turn evil, if he hadn't already, so Dean did what Dean had to do.  

 

Move along, nothing to see here, is that what you're saying?

[Aeryn13]

I think it was something normal Dean wouldn`t have done. He would have let that boy go. And depending on the "creativity" of the writers, we might have gotten an episode two Seasons later that showed how he had joined the evil ranks of the Stynes. I doubt this was the entirety of the family. Or, he would have never been mentioned again.

 

Thing is, "maybe he will, maybe he won`t" wouldn`t have been enough to condemn him to death right now. Maybe it would have saved future victims had he joined the business, maybe it ended a promising life.

 

There needed to be an act of darkness to make the MOC matter finally. This is not normal Dean, this is Dean corrupted by the Mark. Yes, it is also a consequence of taking it without reading the fine print. And yes, the Mark has also proved useful on occassion. 

 

Like I said, in theory, none of this would bother me in terms of "too much darkness". Darth Vader killed little, trusting kids and blew up planets and I still think he got a redemptive arc in the end. What bothers me is the story being in the hands of the current writers. There is almost NO WAY Dean will get his own Suck Song redemption because there is no set up for it. And we should be frigging getting to the portion of raising him back up. It could be done easily. I`m just not sure if it will be done. 

[catrox14]

I don't see how Dean gets out of this.  I love Dean Winchester. I always will. He'll always be a hero to me. But how can he be redeemed? Sam at least got to fall into the Pit and save the world to make up for killing the nurse.  Dean might have saved the world from the Stynes but unless we see something that says the youngest was going down that same path of his own free will without the influence of torture, which IMO is what his family was going to do to him. Dean's speech though was just like Cain. He was killing him to stop any future killing that may or may not have taken place.  It's a shitty thing to do to Dean.

 

The other problem is that now Dean assaulted two police officers. It doesn't matter to the law that they were in the Stynes back pocket. They still have video of Dean killing Drew Neely in Black.  At what point, does Dean become Public Enemy #1?

[Aeryn13]

 

But how can he be redeemed?

 

Like I said, easy to do in the hands of at least semi-competent writers. If characters who killed hundreds of innocents can be redeemed why should one kill that is unwarranted, done under supernatural influence, be a line of no return?

 

They could easily build a story where he sacrifices himself in the end as well. They won`t (likely) because they don`t invest much care in Dean`s character but they could.

[bethy]

I think the issue for me right now is that even if there is a redemption storyline that works for me with Dean (and, frankly, I don't trust that the show is capable of doing that given that previous redemptions have basically consisted of ignoring what was done), it's not going to last. Because next season they'll recycle this same, tired "One brother is in danger; how far will the other go to save him?!" crap that they've been doing over and over. There's no hope. It's all grimness and evil and what they think is "gray," but is really just black.

It's depressing and boring, and I'm not sure I care anymore.

[Advance35]

Am I really supposed to feel like Dean crossed a line killing the youngest Styne? As my son pointed out, that kid didn't *not* kill a boy. I get that he's young, but he clearly knew everything his family was about and blithely sat there playing video games, casually bitching about what a pain in the ass they were. Kid or not, he was old enough to be complicit.

 

This was my outlook on the whole thing as well.   The kid dissected (under duress I'll grant) another human being and under direction from his family would have  on to do other horrible things.   Everything these Steins have done, was something he just tuned out by Video Games or whatever else he could find.   Dean's not irredeemable for me either.

 

I was worried about Castiel though.   Because I don't think he's at full grace and with Dean having the mark, I think in terms of potential damage they could do to one another, they are about evenly matched.   Coupled with the fact that I've frequently gotten the impression that Dean's always felt he could take Castiel without his powers.   For a long time he's viewed Castiel without powers as a "Baby in a Trench Coat".  I'm hoping Misha will at least be recurring next year.

[sigmaforce86]

So glad the bunker is (mostly) intact.  I guess the thing is warded against all evil, but no one thought to reinforce the front door against bombs!  But the books, aaaaaaggggghhhhh the books.  Made me want to cry.

 

Very glad the bunker didn't go up in flames - We're still pissed that they burned the RV on Grimm but at least Nick still has a place to live.  Taking out all the books, history and weapons plus the boys "home" not to mention Dean's flannel shirts - very, very glad they didn't go there.

 

Heavy anvils were falling with Dean's line that the kid had to die even though he hadn't done anything bad yet because "the evil is in him anyway".  Once this is wrapped up though I really do hope they ease off the season arc storelines a bit; I know they can't go back to the Dean and Sam they were 8 years ago but a few more "saving people, hunting things" monster of the week episodes would be nice.  The angst has created a lot of all talk no action hours to sit through to get to action like we had last night but even then the Stynes didn't feel like a threat, more like something Dean would inevitably slaughter just so we could get to the finale.

[Primetimer]

There's vengeance, and then there's this.

Read the story

[Julia]

Does the mark give Dean some special insight into the souls of men? Because I don't see how Dean was supposed to know that the kid from the shadowy psycho family with the blood on him he found in his sanctuary standing over the gas-soaked remains of his life with the guy who killed Charlie was an innocent (although I have to agree with whoever above said he seemed to be living pretty comfortably in the charnel house).

I think without information I don't know how he could have gotten he didn't cross a moral event horizon there. Did I miss something?

And yeah, Dean was pretty harsh with Sam. I still think Dean still has a way to go to catch up with the crap Sam gave him all last season for doing pretty much what Sam's doing now, only without lying about it or letting someone else take the risks for him.

[Bruinsfan]

The other problem is that now Dean assaulted two police officers. It doesn't matter to the law that they were in the Stynes back pocket. They still have video of Dean killing Drew Neely in Black.  At what point, does Dean become Public Enemy #1?

At that episode in Season 7 when the Leviathans went on a multi-state killing spree wearing the Winchesters' faces. It makes no sense whatsoever that every law enforcement officer in America doesn't recognize them on sight and (aside from Jodi Mills and Donna) try to take them into custody—or gun them down in a hail of bullets to be on the safe side.

 

I'm pretty sure all the writers have forgotten that plot point, just like they've forgotten that angels are supposed to be invulnerable to punches and physical harm and that even wimpy book nerd angel Metatron was easily able to overcome Dean when he was fully under the Mark of Cain's influence and had the First Blade in hand.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Bruinsfan

[oliverwendell]

 

I think it was something normal Dean wouldn`t have done. He would have let that boy go.

 

I agree, because we've seen a somewhat similar situation before:  Amy and her son.  Dean did not even consider killing Amy's son, who actually was a monster; the monster she was killing to feed.  But to Dean, killing a child was unthinkable.  This kid in the bunker was a bit older, but still was just a kid.  Moreover, Amy's kid threatened to get his revenge someday, right to Dean's face, and Dean still didn't kill him.  NerdStyne begged for his life in a very convincing way; one that the Dean of old would have responded to.  

 

No, I'm with SueB on this:  Dean had to cross a moral event horizon (love this term! never heard it before!) in order for us to appreciate how much the Mark has twisted him, and to make us really want to see him fixed.  Killing NerdStyne was that moral event horizon, and I for one am glad it wasn't killing Cas.

Edited May 14, 2015 by fourteenwords

[cassandle]

Argh--my internet was out all night and waiting to comment was killing me....

 

 

Another issue: what did Dean really KNOW about this kid?  He was young. He claimed he hated his family. But Dean didn't know he killed that other kid. But Dean also didn't know -- maybe he had killed many others.  So he didn't have any new organs and he had glasses.  That did lend credence that he hadn't been altered yet.  OTOH, maybe the Stynes waited until a certain age.  And it looked like the kid had just reached it.  My point: WE know what the kid did or did not do.  Dean did not.  I agree with Cas, he should have let the kid live because he didn't have evidence he was a killer (whereas he pretty much had the goods on everyone else he killed).  But I can also see in his Mark-influenced brain how he wasn't going to take that risk.

 

 

Does the mark give Dean some special insight into the souls of men? Because I don't see how Dean was supposed to know that the kid from the shadowy psycho family with the blood on him he found in his sanctuary standing over the gas-soaked remains of his life with the guy who killed Charlie was an innocent (although I have to agree with whoever above said he seemed to be living pretty comfortably in the charnel house).

I think without information I don't know how he could have gotten he didn't cross a moral event horizon there. Did I miss something?

 

This is exactly what I was going to say in defense of Dean.  All he saw was a guy standing over a pile of gasoline-soaked books with other members of his murderous family. And if the kid really was a bad guy he might have made the same "I'm not like my family" argument just to save himself from getting killed.  Granted, Dean could have spent a little more time considering the kid's fate but as far as I could tell he had no real reason to believe the kid was telling the truth.  Maybe the kid should have killed his cousins and run off on his own before Dean even got there--he had the opportunity to leave.

 

That being said, I was really expecting Dean to see the photo of Mary and not kill the kid.  Or that the burning of the photo is what would make Dean kill the kid.  Or that the photo would be the reason he didn't kill Cas.  I don't understand why they bothered making a deal about the photo if nothing was going to come of it. I guess the writers were just trying to manipulate the viewers?  And if that's the case, they suck (more than usual).

 

 

[Demented Daisy]

This is exactly what I was going to say in defense of Dean.  All he saw was a guy standing over a pile of gasoline-soaked books with other members of his murderous family. And if the kid really was a bad guy he might have made the same "I'm not like my family" argument just to save himself from getting killed. 

 

That's right.  Let's think about that for a second.

 

Dean saw a kid.  A human kid.  Standing over a pile of books about to be lit on fire.  By his murderous cousin, who Dean knew was a murderer.

 

Dean knew nothing about that kid.  Meaning -- he had no proof that the kid had ever done anything wrong.  All he knew was that the kid was a member of an evil family.

 

Original Recipe Dean always gave humanity the benefit of the doubt.  This kid?  Dean didn't think of saving him for one second.  That misdirect was meant to put the kid (and the audience) at ease.  Then he lowered the boom.  He never intended to save that kid.

 

That, to me, is indefensible.

[catrox14]

That's right.  Let's think about that for a second.

 

Dean saw a kid.  A human kid.  Standing over a pile of books about to be lit on fire.  By his murderous cousin, who Dean knew was a murderer.

 

Dean knew nothing about that kid.  Meaning -- he had no proof that the kid had ever done anything wrong.  All he knew was that the kid was a member of an evil family.

 

Original Recipe Dean always gave humanity the benefit of the doubt.  This kid?  Dean didn't think of saving him for one second.  That misdirect was meant to put the kid (and the audience) at ease.  Then he lowered the boom.  He never intended to save that kid.

 

That, to me, is indefensible.

 

I'm moving a bit more away from my outrage of last night with these other arguments. I was not upset with Dean himself for killing the kid but more that the showrunners chose this act as the tipping point for the character.

 

Dean saw the Lair o' Body Parts at the Styne compound.  Every Styne he's encountered has physically assaulted him, were trying to kill Charlie and did kill Charlie. He knows the Stynes were in the back pocket of the police.  I can make a case that regular!Dean might have gone ahead and put the kid in the dungeon and then had a big fight with Sam and Cas about what to do about the kid. But how could they ever let him go without thinking he'll go back to the rest of the Stynes, because surely this isn't all of them? So do they keep him a hostage forever? 

 

I will never hate Dean. I mourn him. I will be sad forever that the showrunners have taken a hero and destroyed him in many viewers eyes by using this particular "moral event horizon"of killing a teenager so that we see Dean as a totally irredeemable character now.

[Demented Daisy]

I never said that Dean was irredeemable.  I said his actions were indefensible.  And that's what the show wants.  They wrote Dean to do this horrible thing to show what the MoC is capable of and why Sam is so desperate to have it removed.

 

If Dean's actions can be defended, then doesn't that mean it's not so bad?  What's the big deal?  Dean's a BAMF who's getting the job done.  He has to do something abhorrent -- otherwise, let him keep the damn Mark because it's not hurting anyone.

[catrox14]

I never said that Dean was irredeemable.  I said his actions were indefensible.  And that's what the show wants.  They wrote Dean to do this horrible thing to show what the MoC is capable of and why Sam is so desperate to have it removed.

 

If Dean's actions can be defended, then doesn't that mean it's not so bad?  What's the big deal?  Dean's a BAMF who's getting the job done.  He has to do something abhorrent -- otherwise, let him keep the damn Mark because it's not hurting anyone.

 

I didn't say you said that. That was my word. To me indefensible is akin to irredeemable. If you can't defend your actions then do you get redemption? I dunno. I really don't.  

 

I think if Dean was in control of the Mark, he should keep it and just become the most successful Hunter ever. I'm not even kidding.  But I suppose we  aren't supposed to want Dean to be this way either.

[Ria]

Really, if we can't draw the line at killing a kid because maybe he might go bad, then anything goes. Dean may as well get a machine gun and clean up the streets killing off rapists and drug pushers (the same people Amy killed to save her son), gang bangers and anyone else that looks shady, drunk drivers, pimps, bullies. The same guy that refused to kill even the AntiChrist can become accuser, judge, jury and executioner.

[Aeryn13]

If they had told this story better, it might not have been needed - or it could have been worse. But for the entire Season Dean has been somewhat fine in dealing with the Mark so with only this episode to go before the Finale, they had to ramp up the tension.

 

I also think they made young Frankenstein deliberately not a kid-kid. He was young and Cas called him kid and there was this deep irony of the two "young cutie" characters Kevin and Charlie being killed off which made things this bad so another character in that age bracket was killed off to show how bad it really was. But they wouldn`t have made him significantly younger than this - the Stynes could easily be in the habit of taking their twelve-year-olds on murder sprees for example as a rite of passage - because that is considered a line two far for many TV viewers. Over on the 100, they had the main characters killing little kids in their quest for survival and that was already ballsy.

 

Also, this ain`t cable where a character shoves a ten-year-old off a ledge with the intent to kill him for the sole reason to cover up their incestouus affair with their sister. And I felt even that character got started on a redemptive arc so it can be done.

 

I still 100 % believe Dean is a good person at heart. If that is the kind of rage and hatred and level of violence that Mark is capable of - and it obviously still hasn`t taken over completely - than I`m actually impressed by him keeping it in check so well for the Season. It was a foregone conclusion that this wouldn`t last. And this being close to the Season Finale a foregone conclusion his control would shatter now.

[supposebly]

I like evil Dean. For once, they didn't chicken out with our hero to behave truly detestably. That little Styne was Sam's nurse, at least for me.

 

I think the mark basically has its hold over him. Mostly. And most of what he says and does is based on that, probably for quite a while. And I do think he uses Charlie's death as an excuse to go apeshit on anything that moves, including Cas. Which only proves Sam's point. Whatever evil the book may do, having Dean running around with the mark is most likely worse. I also think Dean's "acceptance" is a part of that mindset. Part of him wants it. Or the mark doesn't want him to get rid of it.

 

I also think that's why he could overpower Cas so easily. Cas held back and the mark didn't. That last vestige of Dean didn't kill Cas but I'm very sure that the next time, he will.

 

I was more tense about them burning the books, the vinyl, and the picture than anything else.

 

How the hell did they get into the bunker? They're evil and supernatural, they shouldn't be able to get in.

 

I wonder if evil New!Cain!Dean will be able to flicker from place to place? That will give him an advantage over Cas, whose wings are broken.

[Demented Daisy]

I didn't say you said that. That was my word. To me indefensible is akin to irredeemable. If you can't defend your actions then do you get redemption? I dunno. I really don't.  

 

Redemption: the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil.  You don't need redemption if your actions can be defended.  

[catrox14]

Okay so if the act is indefensible then it's irredeemable. I'm not trying to be pedantic. I'm not following what you are saying.

[Demented Daisy]

No, what I'm saying is that redemption is only possible when the act is indefensible.

 

If you haven't done anything wrong, then you don't need redemption.

[Altered Reality]

I was more tense about them burning the books, the vinyl, and the picture than anything else.

 

How the hell did they get into the bunker? They're evil and supernatural, they shouldn't be able to get in.

 

I wonder if evil New!Cain!Dean will be able to flicker from place to place? That will give him an advantage over Cas, whose wings are broken.

I'm with you.  The books, the books, eep!

 

I don't think the Stynes are actually Supernatural.  Evil, yes no question, but Supernatural, nope.  They're human and all the extras bits (organs, muscles etc.) are human too.  I don't think there's a way to ward against humans.  At least I don't remember anything like that on the show. I could be mistaken though.  I do think the bunker has some sort of spell over it that distracts attention away from it, but if you *know* about it, you can find it.  So the Styne who's been there could find it and then they just used brute force (looked to me like they used a bomb to blow out the front door) to get in.

 

And the idea of a supercharged, Mark driven Dean being able to teleport?  Waaaayyy scary.  Just saying.

[catrox14]

Ah okay.Thanks for clarifying.

I'm with you.  The books, the books, eep!

 

I don't think the Stynes are actually Supernatural.  Evil, yes no question, but Supernatural, nope.  They're human and all the extras bits (organs, muscles etc.) are human too.  I don't think there's a way to ward against humans.  At least I don't remember anything like that on the show. I could be mistaken though.  I do think the bunker has some sort of spell over it that distracts attention away from it, but if you *know* about it, you can find it.  So the Styne who's been there could find it and then they just used brute force (looked to me like they used a bomb to blow out the front door) to get in.

 

And the idea of a supercharged, Mark driven Dean being able to teleport?  Waaaayyy scary.  Just saying.

 

I need Dean to teleport just once.  I mean Sam did get to use the Hand of Ipecac a few times and yes Dean did get to Jedi the Blade for all the good it did him, which reminds me  I need to know where the First Blade is. 

[Altered Reality]

Ah okay.Thanks for clarifying.

 

I need Dean to teleport just once.  I mean Sam did get to use the Hand of Ipecac a few times and yes Dean did get to Jedi the Blade for all the good it did him, which reminds me  I need to know where the First Blade is. 

Okay, because it's you, I'll allow it.  But just once ;D

 

And yes, we do need to know where the First Blade is.

[supposebly]

There might be some torture in Cas' future if Dean wants the blade back.

[catrox14]

I'm just imagining that Dean and Sam and Cas are about to be killed by Crowley when Dean suddenly figures out how to teleport all of them out of there. That would be pretty awesome. 

 

Where would they teleport too? 

[Altered Reality]

That beach Dean was longing for?

[catrox14]

LOL with Dean's luck it would the beach on Lian Yu. YES THEN I WOULD GET MY ARROW/SPN crossover at long last.

[Altered Reality]

LOL with Dean's luck it would the beach on Lian Yu. YES THEN I WOULD GET MY ARROW/SPN crossover at long last.

True about Dean's luck :D

 

However, you do have the best ideas.  I would watch that crossover, even though I'm not watching Arrow anymore.

[Demented Daisy]

And Dean almost would have had an island full of Metahumans to deal with.

[Julia]

No, what I'm saying is that redemption is only possible when the act is indefensible.

 

If you haven't done anything wrong, then you don't need redemption.

The opposite of indefensible isn't innocent. It's at least partially situationally justifiable. Like, say, not giving the kid you don't know to be the only not-evil member of the family single-handedly responsible for the world's misery the benefit of the doubt after you've slaughtered his entire family. Dean wouldn't have done it - he let the ghoul kid go - but that doesn't mean there's no case to be made for it being the right call, given what he knew.

There's some space between indefensible and haven't done anything wrong.