S01.E14: The Search

[Tara Ariano]

Claire and Jenny head off to save Jamie from the redcoat captors and meet up with Murtagh, who joins them. The trio employ unusual tactics to get word to Jamie.

Reminder: This is for discussion of the TV show only.  Any spoiler from outside the books (i.e. next week's preview) should be in spoiler tags. Please do not post or like here if you have read any of the books. Book Talk folks, there is another episode topic for you. 

[meeby]

Murtagh is not Jamie's father. He said Jamie's "a son" to him. Not "he's my son." He loved Jamie's mother, yes, but never had relations with her.

[attica]

Uchhh. "If Jamie's dead, I'll marry you." WTF, Claire?!? Not, "I'll hie my arse back to Craigh Na Dun and hubby Frank," no, that would be too sensible!!!

 

I'm really not interested in this show when it elides over what makes it unique. Because then it's just a soap. 

[bearcatfan]

Uchhh. "If Jamie's dead, I'll marry you." WTF, Claire?!? Not, "I'll hie my arse back to Craigh Na Dun and hubby Frank," no, that would be too sensible!!!

 

I'm really not interested in this show when it elides over what makes it unique. Because then it's just a soap. 

I'm pretty sure Claire has no intention of marrying Dougal. I think she only said that to get Dougal to stop trying to persuade her and get to the rescuing. She knows Jamie would tell her to go back to Craig Na Dun.

[Crackers]

The first fifteen minutes was amazing. The rest - meh. The best part was, of course, Murtaugh. Love, love him.

[terrymct]

Uchhh. "If Jamie's dead, I'll marry you." WTF, Claire?!? Not, "I'll hie my arse back to Craigh Na Dun and hubby Frank," no, that would be too sensible!!!

 

 

Frank, the modern man who can control his inner wild man, isn't interesting to her.  She dumped him and really hasn't looked back since the wedding, beyond one run toward the stones.  Claire is feckless and stupid.  Once again in this episode, she does things that put people and/or the mission at risk and her only repercussion is a slight talking to.    

 

Boy, Jenny sure is a tough woman, isn't she?  She can gallop on horseback just days after a long and difficult birth.  She has miraculous healing powers in the crotch area, evidently.   It reminded me of the movie Prometheus when a female character gave herself a C section, then got up and went running down a hallway.   It was strange that Jenny could ride a horse after childbirth, but poor old Ian didn't have an old leg laying around the house as a back up.  (Maybe the leg he using for mucking out the barn, versus his "Sunday go to meeting" leg.  ;) )   A one legged man with skills would have a backup of some kind in case his wooden leg broke or was damaged.   Jenny and Claire emasculated Ian, again one of the nice and reasonably civilized and thoughtful men, by leaving him home and Jenny going despite having just given birth.  Civilized and thoughtful men don't do well in this show.  I suspect that it was done to give Jenny and Claire some bonding time and to allow Claire a chance to drop those hints about growing and hoarding potatoes.

 

It was really nice seeing Murtaugh and the men from Castle Leoch.   I really wish the main plot of this show was seeing the proud and (generally) noble highlanders trying to defend their culture and way of life in what we all know is a doomed attempt.   That is a lot more interesting than the Claire and Jamie romance, actually it's more interesting than Claire, Jamie, or Randall entirely.   What the heck was Dougal doing with a cave of stuff so far away from his home base?  Claire said smuggling, but maybe it was caching goods for what they hope is the coming war to restore a Stuart to the throne.   Do they have a network of places like this across the Highlands?  Who is helping them?   Man, that would be a great plot if the show would concentrate on that sort of thing.    This episode spent way, way, way too much time on Claire singing and developing her act.   They could have handled that in half the time.

[terrymct]

From the recap:

 

Young Murtagh gave her a pair of bracelets fashioned from the boar's tusks -- the very bracelets Jenny told Claire about in the last episode! Then Murtagh says, very explicitly, that Jamie is his son, from which we may infer that he had sex with Jamie's mother, causing her to become impregnated with Jamie.

 

I disagree.   Murtagh was in love with Jamie's mother (Dougal and Collum's sister), but she was in love with Jamie's (soon to be) father.   Murtaugh tried to impress her and win her heart by killing a boar with his dagger (a very dangerous proposition from what we saw in an earlier episode).  He impressed all the other men and his boss gave him the tusks.  Jamie's mother wasn't moved though, and remained in love with Jamie's father.  He had the tusks made into bracelets, which he then presented to Jamie's mother as a sign of love and as a wedding present for her.   She, intelligently, didn't tell anyone who they were from as that might just have pissed off her new husband.

 

That's my read of it, anyway.  I thought it was a really sweet story and did a good job of explaining Murtaugh's dedication to Jamie.  He's taking care of his true love's son as if he were his own.

[Raeven7]

@Meeby is right; Murtagh is NOT Jamie's father. Please correct this in the summary, because this is WILDLY inaccurate.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I understand Claire telling Ian that if they rounded up a bunch of men to go find Jamie, the British could hold Lallybroch responsible, how would the British NOT hold Lallybroch responsible when the Laird's wife and sister are out hunting for him? And considering all the near rapes we've had on this show, wouldn't it be safer for Claire and Jenny to bring along at least one man from Lallybroch with them?

 

Just the thought of Jenny horseback riding so soon after giving birth made me hurt.

 

Murtagh is not Jamie's father. He said Jamie's "a son" to him. Not "he's my son." He loved Jamie's mother, yes, but never had relations with her.

I didn't think Murtaugh meant he was Jamie's father either. He loves Jamie because he loved his mother, sort of like a way less crankier Snape protecting Harry Potter.

Edited May 10, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[nara]

I think this was the weakest of all the episodes so far, because they spent far too long on the Claire and Murtagh follies.  It was good, but they should have spent approx half the time it did and used dialog or voiceover to indicate the passage of days, weeks, whatever.

 

I liked seeing Jenny's skills in play.  Like Claire, she challenges gender roles--which we didn't really know before.  I think she was in pain during the ride because it was so soon after giving birth, but she pushed it aside because of her love for Jamie.  Have they said if Jenny is older or younger than Jamie?  He's a foot taller than her, but that doesn't mean anything for adults.  She seems to be very protective of him, so I'm guessing older, but I wasn't sure if they had specifically said anything.  The actors are the same age.

 

I could have done without seens Jenny releasing her milk.  I get why it was necessary for her to do, but I didn't feel the need to see it.  However, I was wondering how they did that--CGI milk, a prosthetic?  I did think it odd that she would just throw it away, rather than drinking it.  She doesn't seem to be the type to waste things.  But I guess I didn't want to see her drink it either.

 

I liked the discussion on torture and killing of the courier.  It's an interesting ethical dilemma for Claire.  As much as I like Murtagh's arrival, I would have prefered for Claire to have to make a choice.  Murtagh's actions relieved Claire of the responsibility of deciding whether to risk Jamie and let the courier live or kill an innocent man.  Some of the song and dance time could have been better spent here.

 

I did like the song and dance concept.  Murtagh's dancing was truly awful (or should I say offal) and Claire's singing a little indifferent, but I do like the fact that they saw it as a way to attract Jamie's attention.  I wanted to leap through my TV and slap her when she gave her money to the gypsy--but I guess it worked out because the guy felt guilty enough about breaking his word to come find her and give her Dougal's message.  I didn't see the big deal about the other troop stealing their song.  Couldn't they have followed that group and seen who came to see them, rather than performing themselves?

 

I'm so glad Claire confirmed what I had been thinking--that Dougal deliberately lied to Jamie about his sister's pregnancy to put a wedge between them.  And no, there's no way in hell that Claire would ever marry Dougal, but I like that she finally learned not to say what's she's thinking and be clever instead.  I thought it was surprisingly tactless for him to go after her before Jamie is even dead.  I mean, he's seen that Jamie and Claire are genuinely fond of each other and that she was insulted by his earlier advance on her wedding night.  What's the harm in waiting a day or so more for Jamie to be hanged before hitting on her?

 

Another use of some of the time wasted on song and dance? Claire thinking about what she would do if Jamie did die?  Go through the stones?  Almost certainly. Go back to Frank?  Maybe not, considering she had chosen another man over him.  Could she ever face him again, let alone live as husband and wife?

 

l liked that Willie was the first step up and support Jamie. 

[Athena]

Book posters, please do not post or like in the No Book Talk threads. Even if TV only watchers ask innocuous questions, please do not reply or like. It's tempting I know, but the show should standalone. Thank you.

[jcin617]

Ah yes, that old Scottish ballad - "The Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy". I thought that was pretty funny.

[ganesh]

I don't have a problem with the episode being slow. Because there's going to be a prison break. I am in. So. In. They needed to set that all up and they needed the cave scene. I'm glad it was pointed out, "Hey Claire, you're a woman and your husband died. You have no rights now." You sure you didn't want to try those stones again, Claire?

 

I laughed a lot over the adventures of Singing Claire Who Invented Jazz. 

 

I always feel kind of bad during the opening credits when they show the shot of Frank driving the car. I hope they revisit the 1940s again. 

[Glade]

I kept waiting for Gellis to step out of the shadows of the cave and greet Claire alongside Dougal!  We didn't watch her die and the fact that he refused to talk about her is leading.  But I take it if he had rescued her at the last minute, they'd probably be together, and he wouldn't be searching for another wife?.   I'm eager to hear more of her story and how she plans to change history (I'd also love, love if she actually succeeded and forged an alternative history!)

 

I agree that Claire isn't actually planning to settle down as Dougal's wife, but will do anything to rescue Jaimie at this point. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

Ah yes, that old Scottish ballad - "The Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy". I thought that was pretty funny.

 

 

I laughed a lot over the adventures of Singing Claire Who Invented Jazz. 

 

Well, the space-time continuum shuddered, but did not collapse, so I think it's safe to say it did not have staying power and never made it into the canon.

 

This was a strangely paced episode, but I didn't mind; it kept me interested. 

[MaryMitch]

Jenny is my hero! 

 

But I could have done without seeing her pump her breast milk.

[albaniantv]

This show is amazingly complex. At the same moment that I was taken out of the scene by Jenny pumping her breast milk (huh? does that really happen?) I admired her so much for going with Claire in the scouting---the writers are great at getting you to scream one way and feel another! Love it.

[terrymct]

I kept waiting for Gellis to step out of the shadows of the cave and greet Claire alongside Dougal!  We didn't watch her die and the fact that he refused to talk about her is leading.  

 

I'm wondering about this, as well.  One of the characters needs to say that Gellis was burned at the stake, otherwise she could still be sitting in that hole with the gate on top.  Would they burn a pregnant woman or wait until the baby was born?  She was yelling about Satan being the father so maybe the fate of the infant isn't a concern for the court and mob.

[zoey1996]

This show is amazingly complex. At the same moment that I was taken out of the scene by Jenny pumping her breast milk (huh? does that really happen?) I admired her so much for going with Claire in the scouting---the writers are great at getting you to scream one way and feel another! Love it.

Yes, that really happens.  But while I know it was necessary for Jenny to do it, I don't think it was necessary to show her doing, and definitely not necessary to linger on it that long.  I feel the same way about showing other bodily functions - yes we know they urinate and poop, but I don't want to watch it!

[MaryMitch]

Yes, that really happens.  But while I know it was necessary for Jenny to do it, I don't think it was necessary to show her doing, and definitely not necessary to linger on it that long.  I feel the same way about showing other bodily functions - yes we know they urinate and poop, but I don't want to watch it!

I agree with you (although it's not exactly the same as pooping!).  Think of all the trouble they went to creating the prosthetics and getting the pump to work. It really didn't add anything to the story to actually see the milk coming from her nipple.

[ganesh]

Well, they're certainly showing all aspects of highland life for sure.

The show seems to good to not make sure to us the fate of Gellis. I'm curious about that too. Especially since she and Claire are both travelers.

[terrymct]

Well, they're certainly showing all aspects of highland life for sure.

The show seems to good to not make sure to us the fate of Gellis. I'm curious about that too. Especially since she and Claire are both travelers.

 

You'd think that Dougal would intervene to save his child even if he couldn't or wouldn't save Gellis.

[ganesh]

I'd be surprised if this wasn't revisited even for just one scene before the season is out. I know the situation was dire, but Claire didn't say anything to him either. 

[bearcatfan]

People are really upset about the breast milk scene? I for one would have wondered what she was doing about her engorged breasts if it wasn't shown! I can't believe in this day and age people are still disgusted about breasts being used for their actual purpose. The Canadian audience is in a tizzy because that scene was edited out. I found it incredibly realistic (even if the milk stream wasn't) and was happy that it happened. We've actually seen people peeing as well. Black Jack fondling his penis in order to rape a character is fine, skin peeling off during a whipping scene is fine but a new mother relieving breast engorgement is a problem? Would it have been a problem if she was shown breastfeeding her baby? Do you get upset seeing mothers nurse their children in public? Breastfeeding is a fact of life and I'm saddened that there are still women who finds this disturbing.

[nara]

People are really upset about the breast milk scene? I for one would have wondered what she was doing about her engorged breasts if it wasn't shown! I can't believe in this day and age people are still disgusted about breasts being used for their actual purpose. The Canadian audience is in a tizzy because that scene was edited out. I found it incredibly realistic (even if the milk stream wasn't) and was happy that it happened. We've actually seen people peeing as well. Black Jack fondling his penis in order to rape a character is fine, skin peeling off during a whipping scene is fine but a new mother relieving breast engorgement is a problem? Would it have been a problem if she was shown breastfeeding her baby? Do you get upset seeing mothers nurse their children in public? Breastfeeding is a fact of life and I'm saddened that there are still women who finds this disturbing.

 

I'm not sure who you think is upset about seeing her release her breast milk, but there is a difference between not caring to see something on TV and being upset about seeing what happens.  The posters in this thread who have mentioned it haven't expressed any anger that is was shown--we're just stating a preference.  I don't care for seeing bodily functions--and I could certainly have done without seeing blackjack's penis.  I don't believe anyone has said the rape scenes are okay, but this is not.  In fact, several have expressed a belief that those were unnecessarily graphic. And I'm sure many of us turned our heads during the flogging scenes too.

 

That being said, I do think it's plot-relevant to address the struggles Jenny faced going off on this trek so soon after her delivery.  The fact that several people have mentioned it in comments means that if they didn't address it on screen, people would be skeptical about the episode.  She could have made a reference to her bottom and her breasts being sore and the need to release some of her milk, without actually showing her doing so. The director made a choice to show it instead.

[bearcatfan]

Maybe upset and disgust were too strong, however, if you didn't care to see it, then it bothered you. I find it sad that people are bothered by a breast shown expressing milk. This is why women are still asked to breastfeed their child in a toilet stall.

[nara]

Maybe upset and disgust were too strong, however, if you didn't care to see it, then it bothered you. I find it sad that people are bothered by a breast shown expressing milk. This is why women are still asked to breastfeed their child in a toilet stall.

Please don't presume to know what does or does not bother me.  I will acknowledge, however, that what I'm fine with in real life might be different from what I want to pay money to see on television.

[ganesh]

It seems in general that the breast milking scene was considered unnecessary. I think the show has gone above and beyond in portraying exactly what life was like back then, including in this episode, "you're going to be a widow and and english woman in Scotland, you literally are nothing." If Claire actually made the choice to not go back to Frank (I think she tried the stones and they didn't work), then I think the show is incumbent on itself to show exactly what life she is staying for and has possibly chosen. 

 

I actually think we do in fact need to see them pissing and shitting all over the place. Because there's no indoor plumbing. Claire actually getting spanked. Having a lot of sex, and teaching Jamie about it. You are seriously choosing this, Claire? That's what the show is about. One can assume they do all that offscreen, but it sanitizes and overly romanticizes what is actually a very harsh time. To not show things like this would be disingenuous on the show's part imo. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by ganesh

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

 

This is a reminder to please respect each other's opinions, especially when they radically differ from your own. No one is required to justify their reasons for liking or disliking any given scene. Some people are squeamish about any bodily function being shown, others may be more specific about their likes and dislikes. We will not tolerate any poster being attacked or disparaged for holding any opinion providing it isn't a malicious one - and even then, those should be reported not replied to.

 

Thank you.

[TaurusRose]

I could have done without seens Jenny releasing her milk. I get why it was necessary for her to do, but I didn't feel the need to see it. However, I was wondering how they did that--CGI milk, a prosthetic? I did think it odd that she would just throw it away, rather than drinking it. She doesn't seem to be the type to waste things. But I guess I didn't want to see her drink it either.

I rather liked this scene. When she said she was about to explode, I thought she had to pee. It was so appropriate and realistic to see her having to do the "milk thing," reminding us again that she just gave birth a few days ago. I found it charming and so very like Jenny to be unconcerned and natural about it. I was upset that Maggie's food was going to waste. LOL I think Jenny drinking it would have been weird, though.

 

I kept waiting for Gellis to step out of the shadows of the cave and greet Claire alongside Dougal! We didn't watch her die and the fact that he refused to talk about her is leading.

See, I don't know and don't care about this. IMM, Gellis is dead. If somewhere down the line, it's revealed that she's not; fine. If that doesn't happy, I'm still okay with it. As it stands, I'm going with the flow and I'm happy with the way events are unfolding.

[John Potts]

Did Claire do anything useful this episode? It was Jenny that did the tracking (days after giving birth!) and Murtagh that killed the courier (sparing our heroine from doing anything "evil", of course) and came up with the "song" plan. Also, does she know the words "Thank You"? It may not have worked,  but she should have realised Murtagh was going to great lengths to help her out. And how did the gypsy manage to get the song down exactly? And when did Claire teach it to Jamie anyway?

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 2:00 PM, terrymct said:

Once again in this episode, she does things that put people and/or the mission at risk and her only repercussion is a slight talking to.

Yes, it's "everyone do what I say, but I am in no way responsible!"

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2015 at 3:22 PM, nara said:

I could have done without seeing Jenny releasing her milk.  I get why it was necessary for her to do, but I didn't feel the need to see it.

But how else could we get the requisite BOOBS in the episode?

[Camera One]

This episode was a bit slow, but I do like how this series finds a way to show different locations and aspects of life.  But the prospect of another rescue is beyond tiresome, so I haven't been as motivated to watch even this episode.  I'm not looking forward to more blood and more attempted rape.  What chance was there for Claire and Jenny to rescue Jaime anyway?  He was smart and escaped.  Too bad he wasn't smart enough to stay underground a bit longer to get a message to Lallybroch.  

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2015 at 5:00 PM, nara said:

That being said, I do think it's plot-relevant to address the struggles Jenny faced going off on this trek so soon after her delivery.  The fact that several people have mentioned it in comments means that if they didn't address it on screen, people would be skeptical about the episode.  She could have made a reference to her bottom and her breasts being sore and the need to release some of her milk, without actually showing her doing so. The director made a choice to show it instead.

I agree. I wasn't thinking wow her breasts must be sore, I don't know why that didn't cross my mind. I was thinking how is she riding that horse after giving birth. She had a difficult birth with the baby being breech. I'm sure there was some tearing too. I had 4 natural births and I was cut so I wouldn't tear and my babies were in the 6lb range and not breech. Ouch! Also, she would have a heavy flow, so that's what I was thinking about. I didn't like that the episode was Jamie free but I loved the beautiful countryside we got to see. I noticed the puppeteer show in the background in one of the towns looked like Claire in her white dress leaning against a stone with fairies dancing above. I agree too that Claire only agreed to marry Dougal for his help. I thought when he took her aside to talk he was going to say he knows she's from the future and Geillis was going to come out from hiding.   

[chaifan]

I don't understand why they had to trade Claire getting her name out through healing for Claire the bawdy singer.  I would think news of a traveling healer would get around faster than some song & dance show.  It seemed pointless and clumsy and did nothing for me.  Also, I thought it was weird to show the marionette show with the stones but not have it be part of the plot.  I think Claire needs more information about how the stones work, she needs to learn more of the story, and this would have been a good time to do that. 

Loved the scenes through the countryside and at the coast.  Gorgeous scenery.

[Mezzaluna]

I'm new to the series. Just binge-watched Seasons 1 - 4, and am rewatching season 1. Episode 14 is one of my favorites (although honestly there are many terrific episodes). Jenny and Claire ride off into the woods looking for Jamie like badasses - Jenny's tracking game is strong, and what she does to the courier? I was falling to the floor laughing. Oh, and Jenny expressing her milk in the forest? So matter of fact. I was almost disappointed when Murtaugh showed up, except his eyebrows drive me wild.. in a good way. :)   

[gingerella]

Okay, because it must be said, Jenny is a fucking badass! Expressing her breastmilk the forest,  never thought I’d see that scene! 

If Jenny wasn’t ther Claire would be a goner. And then.....MURTAGH returns!!!! And saves the day for the ladies, though I reckon Jenny would’ve killed that courier if she’d had to. That scene shows so clearly and crisply the differences between Highlander women and English women, or English women who only ken cities. 

Jenny: “Love forces a person to choose...you do things you never imagined you could do before.”

Aint that the truth Jenny, and yes Claire, you were judging her and I don’t think you would have done it yourself, Jenny would have. 

I don’t understand how Ian contacted Murtagh but let’s see if that comes out. I ken Murtagh is always close by Jaime given what we have the Wedding episode. 

I loved Murtagh’s scheme to have Jamie find them, and the road and pony show they cooked up was pretty funny, and they make an amusingly pair after the last two episode. But the fireside chat was really sobering and we finally learn why Murtagh didn’t win Jamie’s mother back when he was young. And when Claire realizes it was him who gifted the bracelets to Jamie’s mother, and collapses in his arms, that really got me in me gut it did. They are both softies and they both love Jamie deeply, he is lucky to have them.

Not sure why they believed the gypsy though, it seems like an obvious set up or ambush, but then...DOUGAL! It’s like an A team reunion. And then, Dougal is...a scumbag. I’m not sure how Claire made the connection between his ulterior motives in controlling the Fraser lands, was that why he had Claire marry Jamie? Just a yes or no will do!

Jesus H Roosevelt Christ! I’m on pins and needles now. I mean, I know Jamie will be saved because they are shooting Season 6, so even though I don’t ken what happens at least I ken the series is still going and he’s still alive... it even so, this is a lot to handle. Oof.

[Beeyago]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, because it must be said, Jenny is a fucking badass! Expressing her breastmilk the forest,  never thought I’d see that scene! 

If Jenny wasn’t ther Claire would be a goner. And then.....MURTAGH returns!!!! And saves the day for the ladies, though I reckon Jenny would’ve killed that courier if she’d had to. That scene shows so clearly and crisply the differences between Highlander women and English women, or English women who only ken cities. 

Jenny: “Love forces a person to choose...you do things you never imagined you could do before.”

Aint that the truth Jenny, and yes Claire, you were judging her and I don’t think you would have done it yourself, Jenny would have. 

I don’t understand how Ian contacted Murtagh but let’s see if that comes out. I ken Murtagh is always close by Jaime given what we have the Wedding episode. 

I loved Murtagh’s scheme to have Jamie find them, and the road and pony show they cooked up was pretty funny, and they make an amusingly pair after the last two episode. But the fireside chat was really sobering and we finally learn why Murtagh didn’t win Jamie’s mother back when he was young. And when Claire realizes it was him who gifted the bracelets to Jamie’s mother, and collapses in his arms, that really got me in me gut it did. They are both softies and they both love Jamie deeply, he is lucky to have them.

Not sure why they believed the gypsy though, it seems like an obvious set up or ambush, but then...DOUGAL! It’s like an A team reunion. And then, Dougal is...a scumbag. I’m not sure how Claire made the connection between his ulterior motives in controlling the Fraser lands, was that why he had Claire marry Jamie? Just a yes or no will do!

Agreed, Jenny is a badass! And as far as the connection between Dougal and marrying Jamie to Claire for controlling Fraser lands, eek!! Way too hard to just say yes or no. How do you feel about deleted scenes?? Lol

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, gingerella said:

I don’t understand how Ian contacted Murtagh but let’s see if that comes out. I ken Murtagh is always close by Jaime given what we have the Wedding episode. 

Been thinking this morning about this comment I made last night and I think, IIRC, when Claire asked if Murtagh was a MacKenzie didn't Jaime say his name was Murtagh Fitzgibbons Fraser? Meaning his mother was a Fitzgibbons and his father a Fraser, yes? And isn't Mrs. Fitz's full surname Fitzgibbons too? So one could infer that Mrs. Fitz and Murtagh were in communication as kinfolk, and that's how the chest got sent to Lallybroch, and also how Murtagh was nearby, and also why he just happened to have Claire's medicine box with him. Perhaps it was in the chest Mrs. Fitz sent, we never really saw either Jaime or Claire going through the chest once they arrived, did we? Also, IF Murtagh and Mrs. Fitz are related closely, then creepy Leery would also be related to Murtagh wouldn't she? Which begs the question why Murtagh wouldn't have a word with Mrs. Fitz and/or Leery directly to leave Claire and Jaime alone.

Also, it was very interesting, in retrospect, to think about where Murtagh stands within the hierarchy of Dougal's crew. Up until this episode, I've always been sure that there is a special bond between Jaime and Murtagh and this is the episode we learn what that relationship is and why. So aside from Murtagh being with Dougal's crew - and maybe that was just because where Jaime goes, so goes Murtagh? - but also, Murtagh always seemed to be one of the more respected elders of that crew. Certainly higher up in standing than, say, Angus. So it was interesting to see in this episode that it truly seems like Dougal doesn't consider Murtagh his inner circle so to speak. The way he told Murtagh to go away when he wanted to proposition Claire with his proposal to safe her, Murtagh stood down even though he didn't want to leave Claire alone with Dougal. He knows Dougal's no good at his core - or should I say, Dougal may be good at his core but the rest of his has been rotted by the times he lives in? Perhaps that's closer to Dougal's truth, because we do see his kinder side glimpsed here and there. And he IS right, a widowed Sassenach, a widow of a wanted man no less, won't fare well in those parts for long, so he would be able to protect her. And he's right also that once BJR heard of the situation, he'd come to Lallybroch looking for Claire and probably Jenny too, to get revenge on both of them. So yeah, Claire's in a bad position right now. As is Jenny because if BJR hears of any of this and the name Lallybroch is mentioned, I've no doubt he'd ride there to torture Jenny, kill the children and Ian, he's a sick twat and that's just up his alley. Now I'm getting really worried for Jenny and Ian.

As for deleted scenes @Beeyago, I'd say nae to that. If a Show wanted a lass to ken more, then a Show would've included more for a lass to ken, aye?

[Anothermi]

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

Okay, because it must be said, Jenny is a fucking badass! Expressing her breastmilk the forest,  never thought I’d see that scene! 

Gotta say I was so pleased that they showed that. I did think throwing it away was such a waste, but... taboos. 

I think we are pretty much on the same page on the points you've mentioned from this episode: 

Marvellous Murtagh's arrival? I clapped for joy. He is my most favourite-ist secondary character, and has been since we first met him. Don't ask me why. 

Jenny's "Love forces a person to choose..."  I loved that she said it, and I thought it ought to be the Fraser motto—instead of the other—because she and Jamie and even Claire seem mostly motivated by it. 

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

I don’t understand how Ian contacted Murtagh but let’s see if that comes out. I ken Murtagh is always close by Jaime given what we have the Wedding episode.

Yeah. That crossed my mind. Your follow up post below seems a reasonable explanation. I'd always though of Murtagh and Jamie as a 'team'—not quite part of Dougal's crew. And at some point I understood that Murtagh was also a Fraser, so thanks for the confirmation of where we were told. 

The Murtagh sword dance! <3. Loved every minute of every one of them. His stern, nay, angry face!  His heavy (and flat) footed moves. His insistence that his dance was the best! (and Claire's smiling agreement). Let's have a toast to Marvelous Murtagh! (I even seem to find him lovable when he makes sexist comments—like the only weapon for a woman is poison)

17 hours ago, gingerella said:

we finally learn why Murtagh didn’t win Jamie’s mother back when he was young.

I did learn that HE was the one who gave Jamie's mother the bracelets, but I don't recall hearing why she chose Jamie's dad over Murtagh.  Can you clarify? I just assumed it was because  Laird Fraser (the dad) would have been a better provider, but then, what we know about both the parents from hindsight was that they were a love match. Did I miss the reason?

But I did have the same reaction as you to Claire's reaction to the reveal. We had wondered since episode 2(?) what the relationship between Jamie and Murtagh was because—even then— it seemed to be more than just being mates. 

The Gypsy: I wondered why Claire believed him when he took her money and said he wouldn't go on using her song and then shafted her by continuing to use it. Guess it was to show the parallel between her and Jamie—who was willing to give Horrocks the benefit of the doubt and got shafted. 

But I agree that trusting him twice seemed a bit much. Except that Murtagh knew were the place was.  One niggle I had with some of the scenes was how free Claire and Murtagh were with Jamie's name when they were trying to keep knowledge of him on the down low. Just. Don't. Say. His. Name!

Dougal: Yep. Self-serving Scumbag. I kinda got the impression that he was tired of protecting Jamie and didn't do anything to save him. He didn't need him alive anymore. He'd moved on to Claire to get what he wanted. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Anothermi
spelling, grammar etc

[Camera One]

I had forgotten the details of this episode, but this episode really made me like Murtagh.  He did stand apart from Angus and the other Mackenzies, so I liked that this episode gave more insight into his relationship with Jaime.  It really surprised me that Murtagh had proposed to Jaime's mother, since he didn't seem that much older than Jaime.

At least this episode was very different... the Claire and Murtagh Travelling Show.  Who knew that would actually be a nice change?

In the scene where Claire agreed to marry Dougal, I am guessing Claire was thinking if Jaime died, then she would arrange to have an engagement party at Craigh na Dun, and then see ya, Dougal.

[gingerella]

Yes, I agree that the Fraser motto should be "Love forces a person to choose" but I also think that "Je suis prest" is going to make sense too. I think both Jamie and Jenny are always ready to help when injustice is being served, as is Claire, though she often does it without understanding the lay of the land so it lands like a three week stale bannock. But I also think that Fraser motto will make more sense in later seasons, depending on what becomes of our young lad, James Fraser. Speaking of age, young people sure grew up fast then! If Jamie is 22, Jenny must only be about 20 or younger, but she already seems like a 45 year old woman with her knowledge and world-weary ways about her.

I also loved Murtagh's dancing but wasn't sure why they kept doing the palm reading, though I liked that Claire was lifting Mrs. Graham's reading of her own hands as the template for her palm readings. I get that the medicine was a way to get trust in a village and then the palm reading was a way to further ingratiate themselves but at some point someone is going to say "she told me to look for a tall redheaded Highlander" and know that everyone was being told the same thing. I did love when she told that lady "you'll have a long and happy life...but your husband won't..." and the lady looked elated and thanked her! And YES, STFU about Jamie, it's like they were putting up neon signs. They ought to have just advertised Claire as The Sassenach Healer, and stuck to that, which would have been more obvious for Jaime to find them.

Anyway, yeah, the scenes with the gypsy was confusing in that he did give them a correct message that someone wanted to see them, BUT didn't Dougal also say that Jamie got nabbed by the redcoats for showing up at the gypsy's performance? That to me felt like the gypsy turned Jamie in, likely for money from the English? Jamie does have a reward on his head, was it 10 pounds?

I'm still wondering about whether or not Murtagh and Mrs. Fitz are indeed kin and if so, that's how Murtagh was able to get that trunk and contents sent to Lallybroch.

And re: WHY Jamie's mother married Jamie's dad instead of Murtagh, I think in telling that story he says the Laird or someone else, maybe her father, decided otherwise for her, but I'd have to go back and listen to that story to see if that's correct. I cannot remember if Murtagh kills the boar with his bare hands before he finds out about Jamie's mother being promised to another, or if it was just after, to put a fine point on his prowess as a man. That said, both Murtagh and Jamie's father were from the same clan Fraser, so I wonder what their own relationship was to one another.

Quote

In the scene where Claire agreed to marry Dougal, I am guessing Claire was thinking if Jaime died, then she would arrange to have an engagement party at Craigh na Dun, and then see ya, Dougal.

@Camera One, YES! I thought this same thing this morning and forgot to say. I had the same thoughts, IF it comes to this, Claire will ask one favor before wedding Dougal, to go to the Stones for some personal ceremony to say goodbye to Jaime, and she'll tell him to wait for her a bit aways like where she camped with Jaime, then POOF! She'll disappear. That's about the only way I'd be fine with her returning to Frank, though I'm also fairly certain Frank's moved on too. AND, that would be Jaime's preferred solution for Claire to keep her truly safe IF it comes to that ( don't think Frasers totally trust MacKenzies). But I don't think it will because, six-plus seasons and counting, don't ye ken!

Edited March 21, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

18 hours ago, gingerella said:

Not sure why they believed the gypsy though, it seems like an obvious set up or ambush, but then...DOUGAL!

I did a quick nip back to the Gypsy message-from-Dougal scenes. There's something there that makes me very suspicious. 

The Gypsy told Claire that they got the message when they were performing at Achnasheen. It was sent to the actor playing the Sassenach role. But when Dougal tells Claire what happened to Jamie he says that Jamie ran into Red Coats on the way to the show at Achnasheen. 

It truly sounds like Dougal witnessed Jamie being taken but didn't lift a finger for him. But he sent a message to Claire to come to him—making her think it was from Jamie. 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

And re: WHY Jamie's mother married Jamie's dad instead of Murtagh, I think in telling that story he says the Laird or someone else, maybe her father, decided otherwise for her, but I'd have to go back and listen to that story to see if that's correct. I cannot remember if Murtagh kills the boar with his bare hands before he finds out about Jamie's mother being promised to another, or if it was just afte

And while I was at it I checked this scene too. Murtagh mentioned he had a rival for the hand of Jamie's mother and then goes on to tell the story of how he tried to win her. He says the to prove himself worthy of her—to try to be the kind of man she'd desire—that during a Mackenzie Hunt he, alone, killed a wounded boar with just a knife. Mackenzie was so impressed that he gave Murtagh the tusks. So Murtagh had them made into bracelets and  gave them to her as a wedding gift. Sounds as though his choice of how to impress the damsel was not what she was looking for in a husband. She desired someone more refined—who was around HER and not off wrestling with boars. 

When he first said it I heard that he'd 'killed a wounded boy...' whom I took to be the other suitor. But when he was given the tusks? I had to rewind and re-listen.

[gingerella]

12 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I did a quick nip back to the Gypsy message-from-Dougal scenes. There's something there that makes me very suspicious. 

The Gypsy told Claire that they got the message when they were performing at Achnasheen. It was sent to the actor playing the Sassenach role. But when Dougal tells Claire what happened to Jamie he says that Jamie ran into Red Coats on the way to the show at Achnasheen. 

It truly sounds like Dougal witnessed Jamie being taken but didn't lift a finger for him. But he sent a message to Claire to come to him—making her think it was from Jamie. 

 

Yeah, I noticed that as well and then got embroiled in other stuff and forgot about it. It dies seem suspicious. But it also seems odd that Dougal and crew are in the same vicinity too. I've no firm grasp of how far Dougal's place is from Leoch and Lallybroch and the Stones. It's all confusing but I fear any investigation would also spoiler us so I sit in wonder. IIRC, Bigmouth Claire tells the Gypsy she's looking g for her husband and he has a price on his head, yes? So he knew this. He probably also knew it was a redheaded Highlander if he'd bothered to overhear any of Bigmouth Claire's palm readings. She may have even mentioned Jamie by name in front of the Gypsy, and so I assume d the Gypsy sold the info to the Redcoats. But that doesn't explain why the Gypsy would then pass on Dougal's message, which h was true, unless Dougal himself strong armed the Gypsy and rold Jim he better fucking pass on the message or else. Dougal is very menacing when he wants to be. Overall this whole piece confuses me.

[Cdh20]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I had forgotten the details of this episode, but this episode really made me like Murtagh.  He did stand apart from Angus and the other Mackenzies, so I liked that this episode gave more insight into his relationship with Jaime.  It really surprised me that Murtagh had proposed to Jaime's mother, since he didn't seem that much older than Jaime.

At least this episode was very different... the Claire and Murtagh Travelling Show.  Who knew that would actually be a nice change?

In the scene where Claire agreed to marry Dougal, I am guessing Claire was thinking if Jaime died, then she would arrange to have an engagement party at Craigh na Dun, and then see ya, Dougal.

I wouldn’t call this epi a nice change, it’s one of my least fave despite badass Jenny, & sweet Murtagh, I didn’t need an hour of singing & dancing & missing Jamie.
 

I love & laughed at your take on Claire agreeing to marry Dougal ! Well done! 

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

 

@Camera One, YES! I thought this same thing this morning and forgot to say. I had the same thoughts, IF it comes to this, Claire will ask one favor before wedding Dougal, to go to the Stones for some personal ceremony to say goodbye to Jaime, and she'll tell him to wait for her a bit aways like where she camped with Jaime, then POOF! She'll disappear. That's about the only way I'd be fine with her returning to Frank, though I'm also fairly certain Frank's moved on too. AND, that would be Jaime's preferred solution for Claire to keep her truly safe IF it comes to that ( don't think Frasers totally trust MacKenzies). But I don't think it will because, six-plus seasons and counting, don't ye ken!

You think Jamie would send her back to Frank? Interesting! 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Cdh20

[gingerella]

45 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

You think Jamie would send her back to Frank? Interesting! 

I think Jaime would prefer she go back to Frank and her old life instead of marrying dodgy Dougal, yes. Everything about Dougal is shady and at least Claire has given Jaime the impression she loved Frank, on some level.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

@gingerella Couple of facts: Murtagh is related to Mrs Fitz, although I am not sure how closely. And he is Brian ( Jamie’s dad) Fraser’s cousin. He must be at least 20 years older than Jamie. Ellen (Jamie’s mom) had lots of suitors plus her parents had arranged a husband for her  but she fell in love with Brian & ran away. Jenny is also a couple of years older than Jamie, who of course would not have been laird of Lallybroch had his oldest brother not died. I don’t think those are spoilers just helpful to know.

Request to you @Cdh20. We are posting from a position of not knowing the story or having seen the show. SO. When we post a question. It is rhetorical. We are NOT seeking answers. There is a thread for that and we are aware of it. Please do NOT answer our questions. If we really want to know answers? We will post that in this thread. 

Those are the forum rules which can be found int this thread. 

We know you don't want to spoil us but what is seen cannot be unseen. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Anothermi

[SassAndSnacks]

On 3/21/2021 at 3:59 AM, gingerella said:

Jenny is a fucking badass!

 

14 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Gotta say I was so pleased that they showed that. I did think throwing it away was such a waste, but... taboos. 

Again, I love that the two of you saw this, appreciated it, and moved on.  This is another one of those scenes that people get SO hung up on. I nursed my three babes and this portrayal was so freaking realistic. 

 

This is my least favorite episode of the season, so I'm going to butt out of the other comments and move on to the next episode.