S03.E22: This Is Your Sword

[Velocity23]

So i am guessing the NP divorce will be shown by a party (either Nyssa or Oliver) saying the phrase "I divorce you" three times.

[InsertWordHere]

Oooh and Ray was adorable. And useful. But erm...did a missile hit him and he didn't explode? Hand wave.

Actually, I think he flew through the plane. I don't know if that's better or worse?

[Guest]

Hmm. I wonder if that 'sleeping gas' they were clearly given was also some kind of vaccine against the virus.

[Actionmage]

He knows he risks their friendships, but he has to defeat Ras.

 

As others have noted, this is where the writing has done no one favors, except for Stephen Amell's  pained or frustrated faces.

 

Every episode folks are wailing about losing Oliver to Ra's in order to save Thea /the city/people he cares about.  Do they think this is not still The Plan?  Yes, Oliver should have told them parts of the plan, but he didn't. Yes, it's hard to trust the current Grumpy Cat of the super-hero set, but they flipflop on whether they do trust him so frequently, I feel the breeze here in Texas.  Do they think that Ra's is so blindly trusting of an outsider that those minions are there around Oliver for decoration?  Dig barely gets 90 seconds with Oliver and about half is Dig being ( rightfully) angry. Yet when was Oliver supposed to tell Dig anything in that time?  It's not the most simple or easy to summarize, apparently. Especially with the team, Ray and not-fully-trustable Malcolm there in Nanda Parbat.

 

I get the team is upset about Oliver seeming "going bad". Yet he's not dead and he isn't really doing unspeakably heinous, vile acts. 

 

When I think about the reactions from a writing standpoint, it's dumb. The emotions aren't so very off that the writing is obviously getting in the way. Yet, when I wonder about why Team Arrow is reacting to things the way they are, the writing starts to unravel a bit. From Sara's "mysterious" death to fake Alpha/Omega, story has been stuffed between the set pieces/ moments/ cool visuals TPTB wanted for this season.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Oooh and Ray was adorable. And useful. But erm...did a missile hit him and he didn't explode? Hand wave.

Actually, I think he flew through the plane. I don't know if that's better or worse?

 

It was both -- the jet fighter launched a missile at Ray and it exploded close to him causing him to fall, but then Ray got his bearings back and resumed chasing the plane.  He tried to shoot the plane down but the blaster on his arm misfired probably due to damage from the missile explosion, so then he flew through the plane causing it to explode.

[BkWurm1]

 

 

So what if they wake up and realize that they're not dead? It's still psychological abuse that Oliver is doing to them, especially to Felicity who he says he loves.

 

At this point, when Oliver keeps hurting Felicity and she keeps forgiving him and going back to him, it starts to look like an abusive relationship.

 

It's not abuse if his alternative is to let them die.   Fifteen minutes of terror and heartache is better than an eternity of dead.  Loving these people is what kept them alive.   There wasn't more he could do. 

 

Felicity continues to experience trauma around Oliver but while a lot of the year was him needlessly having his head up his ass and rejecting her, this wasn't about him.  He sent for the team to save Starling City.  They ALL knew the risks.  Felicity went because she also needed to try and fight for Oliver but the mission came first and they got caught and Oliver SAVED them.  To do so he had to let them think the worst for a what was I'm sure an endless fifteen minutes but these are not civilians that don't know the risks.  These are heroes (minus Malcolm) that on a daily basis have decided to put their lives on the line.  Being in Nanda Parbat was their choice.  If the roles were reversed they would have done the same.   

 

I can't really understand the concern that Oliver did not include his team on the secret/plan.  Malcolm is a lying liar who lies, but he is also the one who knows the ways of the league and has things Oliver needs.  If Malcolm is caught enacting the plan, even if tortured for info, would Ras take on face value anything he said?  No one, even Ras trusts Malcolm.  On the other hand, if Oliver tells his team he risks them even further.  He is the weapon and he alone is in the position to accomplish the multiple goals:  protect family/friends, unravel Ras' mysteries/agenda, and so forth. 

 

We have asked all season why Ras would want Oliver, why wouldn't Oliver ask the same question?  What he needed was an opportunity to infiltrate, learn and to defeat Ras.  Malcolm is a useful alliance, the team is frankly a liability/risk in terms of inclusion.  As twisted as it is, Oliver's most noble choice is to protect those he cares for by not telling them.  Especially once he learns about the virus, the stakes are even higher.  As he noted, Tatsu told him he must be willing to sacrafice what he values most to defeat Ras.

 

Let's say he told the team, what would he tell them and when?  What would they do differently?  He is flying by the seat of his pants in a setting where he hasn't been able to anticipate what crazy Ras will want next (except to the extent Malcolm could provide info).  Malcolm has what Oliver needs and the team has made amply clear they will not trust him and resent Oliver working with him. 

 

It is disturbing to see someone not include their friends and partners, but sometimes it just isn't the better option.  He knows he risks their friendships, but he has to defeat Ras.

I go back to there not being anything he can really tell his team initially.  I don't get the impression that he planned on agreeing to Ra's offer until he suddenly had to and I don't think Malcolm filled him in on the extra problem of doing so until after Thea had to be saved.  Malcolm even tried to get Oliver out of Nanda Parbat when Felicity drugged Oliver.  There seems to me that there was no real plan in place other than Oliver would work to try and take down the league from the inside and if this show hadn't slapped idiot buckets on Team Arrow, that is exactly what they should have thought he was going to try to do anyway.  

 

But until he had something concrete, he probably didn't want them knowing about the extra issue of Starling City for fear that they did something rash that one, would get them killed, or two, would prevent Oliver from stopping Ra's once and for all. 

 

Tatsu had given him her advice way back when he almost died but I sincerely don't believe he planned on taking it literally until he had to.  There is no way he could have planned for Ra's to make him an offer.   There is no way he would have let Dig come with him to rescue Merlyn the first time around where he suddenly confessed how messed up he was in the head since he almost died and there is no way that he would have had his reaffirmation about why he was the Arrow if his plan was merely to bide time and then agree to the Offer.  No.  Innocents were dying .  His plan was to go to prison rather than let Ra's win.  This plan had to have only come up after Thea was mostly dead. 

 

So Malcolm pretty much only knew that Oliver would be planning something.  The bigger question is why was Malcolm helping Oliver?  Revenge?  I mean, Malcolm was free and clear of the League.  Why would he continue to risk his life and freedom?  

[ohjoy]

So, I just spent the better part of an hour laughing maniacally and shouting, "THIS SHOW IS SO DUUMMMBBB!!!!!!" at my tv. I'm guessing that's not the response they were going for. (But who knows -- the way the plot's been this season, maybe that's exactly the response they were going for.)

[catrox14]

I was surprised to find myself crying over Maseo. I really liked Rick Yune and I thought it was a beautiful death scene. 

[BkWurm1]

On a positive note I was shocked at how moving Maseo's death was.  I mean I saw it coming a mile away, but the way those two actors just sold the scene it was a really touching/emotional scene that I was not expecting.

 

Very much so.  And that scream at the end!  Chills!

 

DId we REALLY need the implication that Ra's raped Nyssa's mother?  Or that Ra's was going to have Oliver rape Nyssa?  I really do not love those kind of uncomfortable plot points on these kind of "fun" shows.  Leave that for SVUs of the world

 

Interesting.  I'm going to have to watch that scene again.  I did not get that impression.  I do want to know what happened to the woman and also why she was only his concubine, not his wife.  

[apinknightmare]

Interesting.  I'm going to have to watch that scene again.  I did not get that impression.  I do want to know what happened to the woman and also why she was only his concubine, not his wife.  

 

When they were at dinner and Ra's let it slip that he would be expecting Nyssa to have a child and she argued, he told her he was giving her as much choice as he gave her mother (or something along those lines), implying that yeah, he forced himself on her. 

[catrox14]

Shallow note. Damn Roy...you were looking FINE.  I mean whew.......maybe that was more Colton just being Colton...and he was on vacation and looked a bit tan...but whatever it was....hellllllooooo Roy Harper. ....and goodbye again.

[Richness]

So, what wedding presents would you guys have gotten Olivier and Nyssa?

 

His and hers sharp, pointy things, with a collection of five magic herbs that enhance health, life, death, mind, and libido.

[catrox14]

I liked Ray in this episode but ATOM is just really out of place on Arrow.  So please, fly away home to somewhere else Ray. Or shrink away...whichever

[Chaser]

Read thru William Shatners tweets. Apparently Felicity, Roy and Ray were the only characters in this episode. LOL

[catrox14]

I find it ridiculously amusing that Shatner really does watch Arrow, Supernatural, OUAT, and a few other shows. He's just a fanboy and it's really funny to me.

[Velocity23]

My babies!

Edited May 7, 2015 by Velocity23

[statsgirl]

William Shatner really likes Roy. I think he's the viewer who will miss him the most.

 

I am disappointed that what happened in this episode had nothing at all to do with Bruce Springsteen's lyrics.  The lyrics had a lot of hope in them, unlike this episode.

 

  He sent for the team to save Starling City.  They ALL knew the risks.

Although to be fair, it was Oliver's fault that Starling City was at risk. If he hadn't put Malcolm under his protection in The Magician and had et him be taken back to Nanda Parbat to pay for his Undertaking crimes, there would have been no duel with Ra's, no prophecy, and no need to wipe out Starling City so Oliver's life was destroyed and only Al Sah-him remained.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[Actionmage]

So, what wedding presents would you guys have gotten Olivier and Nyssa?

 

Something from the Nanda Parbat SkyMall catalogue. Barring that, couples massage. They'd never buy one for themselves.

[BkWurm1]

Although to be fair, it was Oliver's fault that Starling City was at risk. If he hadn't put Malcolm under his protection in The Magician and had et him be taken back to Nanda Parbat to pay for his Undertaking crimes, there would have been no duel with Ra's, no prophecy, and no need to wipe out Starling City so Oliver's life was destroyed and only Al Sah-him remained.

So ultimately this is ALL MALCOLM'S FAULT!!!!

 

I'm rooting for Malcolm having betrayed Oliver to Ra's for real rather than part of some bigger plan cause I soooooooo need Felicity to make good on her promise to let everyone know he is alive. 

[tessaray]

I don't think anyone else has addressed it, but didn't Ra's at one point say he met Nyssa's mother in Odessa?  Does that mean we're stuck with him or the LoA next season too?

[Trini]

I was surprised to find myself crying over Maseo. I really liked Rick Yune and I thought it was a beautiful death scene. 

 

I should really start calling him by his name instead of Hot Chinese Guy. But yeah, Yune has been one of the very few bright spots in this dreary season.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Trini

[Chaser]

Did Laurel mention Nyssa at all? 

[Artsda]

Oh my at the cry. I wish I had ear plugs too.

 

I would have liked it better if Oliver wasn't faking and actually had mind control. Loved all the Diggie/Felicity.  Obviously the toxin is not going to kill them however I kind of hope it did with Laurel, she can go far away. So pointless around the others.

 

I guess Thea will now become the red arrow?

[Chaser]

I know the conversation between Diggle and Felicity seemed like the death bed type but I'm wondering if Felicity actually had an idea what was going on. Before she said the trusted you line she seemed to hesitant and look around at the others. She looked confused or conflicted for a moment.

[millennium]

 Like I could very easily here the 60's Batman voice over guy, talking about how DIRE the situation was in the cell. Will Oliver Queen ever return? Is everyone dead? tune in next time, same Bat Time, same Bat Channel!

 

 

Batman voice over guy = William Dozier, who also was producer of the Batman TV show.

[statsgirl]

That's why I really don't think Felicity is going to have a hard time forgiving him... Oliver said that they needed to trust him and while it may have looked bleak, no one is actually dead and that means he's still her Oliver and he's not gone forever. If Ollie didn't get mad over his team faking Roy's death without his knowledge (despite the fact that they made him feel awful over having not followed his instincts to go rescue Roy) then I don't see Felicity being mad at Ollie over this.

 

Faking Roy's death was different. Oliver wasn't in any danger or pain other than a couple of hours of regrets.

 

I'm sure Felicity will forgive him because that's how Marc Guggenheim writes this show, But if I were Felicity, what I wouldn't be able to forgive is not Oliver asking them to trust him, but Oliver not trusting me.

 

Oliver needs to pay for spending the season not trusting his team and keeping secrets from them IMO.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I know the conversation between Diggle and Felicity seemed like the death bed type but I'm wondering if Felicity actually had an idea what was going on. Before she said the trusted you line she seemed to hesitant and look around at the others. She looked confused or conflicted for a moment.

She might have had an idea and was hedging her bets because what if Ra's found Oliver out? What if Oliver wasn't able to get back to them before whatever it is wore off and the guards found them out? Might as well say goodbye while you can.

[Starfish35]

I honestly don't know what to think after watching that. There were parts I really enjoyed (anything to do with Tatsu) and so much that I just couldn't make sense of.

You all know how much, generally speaking, I can't stand Laurel. So I hope you will understand how it pains me to say that, maybe for the first time ever, I found Felicity to be more annoying than Laurel. (I can't even believe I'm writing this.) I just genuinely did not understand her behavior for most of this episode, and I'm someone who really didn't have a problem with her last week. (Sidenote: if this is what we have to look forward to next season with Wendy Mericle as co-show runner, I am not encouraged.) I think the worst moment was the " I can't believe he's marrying her." I mean....bigger problems, Felicity! I love you, but wow.

I did like the tablet frisbee moment, though, and I did think she had a good moment with Ray. I could see them eventually becoming good friends - they just were terrible romantic partners.

Speaking of Laurel, wow, ok, still hating the Canary Cry. And she was rather obnoxious herself in that first exchange in Diggle's apartment. And for all her woe last week over Nyssa, not one reaction this week over finding out Nyssa's still alive?

I really liked Roy and Thea, but wasn't so keen on the way they left it. But looking forward to more Speedy.

I'm not really getting why Diggle was so angry in the beginning. In fact nothing about that scene made sense to me. I get Diggle (and Laurel too I guess) being angry at Oliver after finding out he was faking last episode. I don't at all get the anger at Oliver before they find that out, when just last episode Diggle was the one saying he's gone - Oliver's not in there anymore. I get being angry at the situation, but last episode they were treating Oliver like a fallen soldier - now they're treating him like a betrayer, and I just don't get it.

I don't even know what to say about Nyssa except...I really hope she gets to kill Ra's next week.

And I still don't understand why Maseo would take the virus to Ra's. Was that explained somehow and I missed it?

*sigh* I'm so ready for this season to be over.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

I think Oliver was very much in a "don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness" sort of position in this episode. He had two options here:

 

A) Let them all die

 

B) Keep up the charade up for Ra's by keeping contact with TA to a minimum which means he wouldn't have time to tell them and save the people he loves (minus Malcolm). 

 

I don't think Oliver felt as though it would've been safe to tell TA about his plan, and when their lives are in the balance, I get why he would go with his gut and not tell them regardless of how pissed they'd be. 

 

This is not a black/white situation at all. Oliver has valid points for not telling TA, TA has valid reasons for being pissed at Oliver. But in the end, I feel like they'll forgive him (minus Digg) because Oliver took a risk to save their lives. 

 I think the worst moment was the " I can't believe he's marrying her." I mean....bigger problems, Felicity! I love you, but wow.

 

Surprisingly enough I wasn't really annoyed by that line (usually I would) because she had a lot to process at that time and Oliver marrying Nyssa totally came left field and she needed a few moments to process that information. It's not like they had anything else to do in that prison cell except for sit down and chill out :p 

 

I'm sorry you were annoyed by her this episode. What were some of the other moments you couldn't understand? Because I felt as though this was one of her stronger episodes. 

[Starfish35]

I didn't understand her stubborn refusal to believe Tatsu, in the face of the evidence, or the fixed determination that Oliver was gone. That didn't make sense to me at all. I would have thought she would have leaped at the idea that Oliver was still in there. And it didn't look good that Diggle and Laurel are leaping to help, even angry, and she's digging in her heels and refusing to have anything to do with it. It made her look petulant (to me).

Sorry. :(. I do love Felicity. But something about all of it just really rubbed me the wrong way this episode.

Because I felt as though this was one of her stronger episodes.

Sorry. :( Personally I thought last week was a better episode for her. I really liked several of her scenes last week. But I guess different strokes as they say.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[millennium]

This episode was just dreadful.   I'm not so loyal to this series that I feel obliged to probe for undigested oats among the poop.

 

It was nice to see that old dungeon set from Star Trek again.   I also experienced a crazy moment as Oliver locked the cell door and the various members of the team begged him not to abandon them.   All I could think of was the Skipper, Professor, Ginger, Mary Ann and the Howells calling "Gilligan, let us out!"   I think it was the cheesy torches and again the low-budget dungeon.

 

Some cliffhanger.   I watched this episode on cwtv.com (which has serious streaming issues) and during one of the commercial breaks

they ran a preview for the next episode of the Flash showing the Arrow fighting Dr. Wells alongside Barry Allen!

  What the heck?

 

I had a thought.   Is it possible that this Ra's and this League of Assassins are not the REAL Ra's or the real LoA?  Remember in the first Nolan Batman movie, Ra's allowed Bruce Wayne to initially believe that Asian guy was Ra's?   It doesn't seem credible to me that the Ra's in Arrow is the Big Bad he's made out to be.    This Ra's seems to have a man-crush on Oliver Queen, he's more invested in planning a wedding than safeguarding the well-traveled Appalachian trail to his hidey-hole in the mountains, he's wearing Bea Arthur's outfits and he's seems obsessive compulsive about suffixing everything with "of the Demon."   "I will now apply the styling gel of the Demon ..."  

 

And the so-called Assassins who comprise the League?   They got their asses whupped by Laurel and Felicity will probably send them a bill for the tablet.  (Kudos to Laurel: this time she wore street clothes to the clandestine meeting in the warehouse).

 

So maybe this Nanda Parbat band of misfits is just a sham LoA.  Strictly for the tourists.    Maybe the real Ra's Al Ghul can't be bothered with the likes of the Arrow and his silly friends.   The real Ra's and his daughter Talia are probably at this moment tangling with a real superhero who protects Gotham City. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by millennium

[wonderwall]

I didn't understand her stubborn refusal to believe Tatsu, in the face of the evidence, or the fixed determination that Oliver was gone. That didn't make sense to me at all. I would have thought she would have leaped at the idea that Oliver was still in there. And it didn't look good that Diggle and Laurel are leaping to help, even angry, and she's digging in her heels and refusing to have anything to do with it. It made her look petulant (to me).

Sorry. :(. I do love Felicity. But something about all of it just really rubbed me the wrong way this episode.

 

Ah, and no worries! You don't have to apologize for being annoyed by her for once. This was how I felt about Felicity in episode 17 :p 

 

I honestly felt like she was in deep denial just as Diggle was in the beginning of the episode, not only that but she didn't want to get her hopes up especially considering what she'd seen Oliver do to Diggle and his family. She reconciled with Oliver being dead in the last episode which is why I get she was hesitant. And even then, she doesn't really know Tatsu an whether or not she's trustworthy, she shouldn't have any reason to believe in what she says considering the amount of times she's been screwed over the past few years. But in the end Tatsu only got to Felicity because of what Oliver told her about Felicity being his last thought. I think that sort of reminded Felicity what she could be fighting for. But I guess all that matters to me though is Felicity went to NP and tried to make Oliver see sense, try to sort of bring him back.

 

IMO what was more perplexing was Laurel flip flopping about their view of Oliver. It was difficult to keep track of.

 

I guess that's how I viewed her this episode... You may not agree and I may be 100% wrong but that's totally cool. 

[Starfish35]

You may not agree and I may be 100% wrong but that's totally cool.

It's all our opinions. :) No right or wrong. I knew it wasn't going to be a popular opinion, and I thought about not posting, but I just was really frustrated after I watched it and wanted to vent a little.

[wonderwall]

It's all our opinions. :) No right or wrong. I knew it wasn't going to be a popular opinion, and I thought about not posting, but I just was really frustrated after I watched it and wanted to vent a little.

Hopefully since Greg Berlanti is writing the next episode, you'll like Felicity better :) And hopefully the episode is good (I mean, there's not much you can do to save the plot, but character-wise I think the episode could be great). 

 

I'm curious as to how Felicity will be integral in taking down the virus because didn't MG say that Diggle/Felicity will both be vital in the finale? 

[slayer2]

Poor Team Arrow, they must be feeling very much like Team Angel Season 5. Nice plan Ollie but you can't change the beast from inside it's belly without becoming a beast yourself. You were really gonna just kill Nyssa like that? And after all the Sara slander you threw at her? And who was going to stop him from gutting Diggle last episode aside from (the amazing) Speedy. At least I know why he looked so shocked at seeing her there. And then trusting that turncoat Malcolm over members of your own team? Wow, Ollie, worst plan ever. Sinceriously. Team Arrow is fiyah though and so in sync (even though they're very Smallville season 10 Collateral right now). Loved them all taking turns reading Malcolm for filth.

 

 Other random thoughts: Poor Nyssa still find it hard to believe the daughter of the Demon couldn't stab Oliver to death if she wanted to. They grossly underestimate her skills against him. Still loving the Canary scream although someone mentioned on youtube that it should have been used to prevent the kidnapping of Nyssa two episodes ago. *le sigh

[raytch]

Wow that was horrible.

 

I can't believe they spent all last episode convincing us that Oliver is no longer Oliver only to tell us that he is still Oliver but with a plan and then to end the episode by telling us wait.. Maybe he's no longer Oliver and just pretended to be Oliver to get all his friends to jail and kill them with the virus.

 

I can't wait till this season is over.

Its like it make it or break it with this show. Has anyone noticed that the good episodes are really good and the bad ones are just horrible?

 

ETA, Am I the only one who thought the fight scene with the assassins made no sense? If they are the greatest fighters on the planet, how the hell was Laurel able to take more than one at once? ALSO WHY WAS SHE WEARING THE BC COSTUME WITHOUT THE MASK? And why didn't she use her canary cry? I mean if we're gonna be stuck with that stupid cry at least make it count.

Edited May 7, 2015 by raytch

[Starfish35]

ETA, Am I the only one who thought the fight scene with the assassins made no sense? If they are the greatest fighters on the planet, how the hell was Laurel able to take more than one at once? ALSO WHY WAS SHE WEARING THE BC COSTUME WITHOUT THE MASK? And why didn't she use her canary cry? I mean if we're gonna be stuck with that stupid cry at least make it count.

No, I was just thinking I forgot to mention that. Seriously, I normally don't think much about the bow and arrow and sword stuff. It just is. But then there Diggle is with his gun, and I'm suddenly thinking, why are you ALL not carrying those? (sorry. Maybe my suspension of disbelief was just broken tonight. ) :(

I don't mind that Laurel was wearing the costume without the mask. I prefer it that way to be honest, although I know it's not practical. I cannot stand that wig and mask on her - IMO it makes her look like a clown and I can't even begin to take her seriously when she's wearing it. But agreed about the Canary Cry. If they're going to inflict it on us, why not have her use it in a situation where it actually counts? :(

Edited May 7, 2015 by Starfish35

[slayer2]

I like the Canary cry frankly, in terms of not using it at the right time I guess it's as expendable as Nyssa's fighting skills and Oliver's inability to defeat Malcolm but ability to defeat Nyssa and so on and so forth....

[Starfish35]

I'm not fond of their inconsistency on those things either. Oliver being able to beat Nyssa is a particular pet peeve of mine.

[SleepDeprived]

A grand wedding to merge the houses together that results in multiple deaths? *Rains of Castamere plays in the distance*

 

So, seems like this was a very divisive episode. I didn't think it was extremely bad. Well, I mean, this whole LoA/Ra's/Wahreeth al Ghul plot just plain sucks and soo many things truly make no sense, once one actually thinks about it, but I was actually expecting worse things to happen. Although it might have been because I was spoiled to the gills, but everything that happened wasn't that surprising to me and didn't annoy me as much. The spoiler speculation thread is a lovely place to read that helps purge most of the raging I might've had, had I come into this unaware. Honestly, I just focused on and enjoyed certain character moments and interactions. I, also, felt the pacing in this episode was pretty steady and moments that needed to breathe got to breathe while nothing much dragged.

 

Nice to see Roy again. Colton was looking especially fine with the scruff. I'm really happy he got his goodbye with Thea. Roy really, really grew on me this season and I will miss him a lot. So not cool about him making her decision for her but, well, I'm still okay with it because I'm actually excited to see Thea vigilante-ing. By the way, Roy's apartment was super nice for someone on a mechanic's salary of only a month or so. I guess Felicity set him up with a comfortable bank account, too.

 

Tatsu seriously rocked. I love her. I want to keep her. Her moments with Team Arrow and, especially, Felicity were good. The fight with Maseo was very nicely done and the death scene very nicely acted. Akio's death in the past and Maseo's death in the present. Man, her life is so tragic. She was, perhaps, the best thing about this episode.

 

I get why Diggle acted like he did. Yeah, he's kinda being irrational and a little over-the-top about Lyla's kidnapping and sorta weird insistence that Oliver's evil now. But I think he's not so much just mad at Oliver as he is mad at himself that he couldn't prevent everything that happened (with Lyla, with Oliver) and couldn't do much about it. He was so sure that Oliver would never turn on the people he loves. He put so much trust in their bond as brothers that Oliver would be able to overcome any sort of mind voodoo from the LoA. He was banking on their bromance a lot and found that it was wanting, after all. Sure, it was a bland kidnapping and neither Lyla nor Sara got hurt, and, yes, Lyla can absolutely take care of herself but, for a moment, he really thought he might lose his wife because of the actions of his best friend and there really was danger in leaving a child all alone in her crib.

 

On the other hand, I also get why Oliver did what he did when he kidnapped Lyla. And why he continued to do what he did in this episode, pretending to be brainwashed in order to gain the trust of Ra's al Ghul and asking them to just trust in him. I also kind of understand why he chose to loop in Malcolm and not Diggle or Felicity with his plan to bring down the LoA from the inside. Malcolm does know things about the League far more than any of them. Plus, he would be more useful in infiltrating Nanda Parbat for their secret meetings since he knows the terrain. Rock and a hard place.

 

Nyssa is probably the one that got shafted the most in this episode/entire dumb LoA plot. I truly hope that she's the one that ends Ra's and not Oliver or Malcolm or anyone else. I will take great satisfaction in her being the one to end her father's life. Wow, that sounds terrible but I regret nothing.

 

So, I really think that the entire team had themselves inoculated against the virus before they went to Nanda Parbat. They all knew what the virus could do so prudence would suggest that they arm themselves, not just with weapons but also their immune systems. I mean, Tatsu, Maseo, and Oliver in HK all made sure to take the vaccine before they tried to stop the virus from getting released in the flashbacks 5 years ago. Why wouldn't Tatsu, at the very least, if not Oliver, advice that they get inoculated first before embarking on their mission to stop Ra's from using his plane to drop the Alpha/Omega on SC?

 

Of course, they couldn't have known that Ra's would intentionally release the virus in their cell, which is why they panicked at what was happening and tried to get Oliver to do something to help them. And they, also, might've been afraid just in case the vaccine didn't take and they actually died. It's just suspicious to me that Malcolm absolutely made sure that he got sent back in the cell with the whole team by trying to tattle on Oliver when Malcolm knows that Ra's trusts him not one iota.

Edited May 7, 2015 by SleepDeprived

[Ariah]

Well, I'm happy I've decided to watch the episode first and then go read the comments, because I actually LIKED this episode. So there's that.

 

Yes, I have learned not to expect great plotting from these writters. Actually, the psychology of the characters and their motivation is still at the "my first fanfic evah'" level, but once I accept this, I may be surprised - in the good way.

 

There's been some nice lines of dialogue tonight: Felicity and Diggle's convo on cardio, their goodbyes.

There's been some good reaction shots: Oliver appearing under Al-Sahim's mask, Felicity's tablet toss.

There's been gutwrenching scenes: Tatsu vs Maseo and the conclusion of the fight. I knew Maseo's a gonner, but it still hurt.

 

A lot of people are bothered by the marriage. The only way in which this marriage bothers me is because both participants are being forced into it by patriarchal uber standards, and bother are being hurt in the process. But the show portrays this marriage as such, as another way to torture both parties. This marriage is wrong and is being shown as wrong. Like Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Together with Ra's nauseating proposition of reproduction.

 

And just like that, this marriage will be, how to put it... ineffective.

(The tumblr seems to be buzzing with opinions that a) marriage is valid and b) marriage = sex. Ad a) any marriage under duress is invalid by definition and ad b) even in real life that's not true in some instances )

 

So yes. Could the writers find another way to force Nyssa and Oliver to work together? Of course. But it probably required more skilled storytellers and these writers are not that. They probably got excited about:

- wedding ceremony in Nanda Parbat,

- Ra's being an old pervert,

- rattling Olicity shippers to the point of catatonia.

 

"Oh, shinny new idea, let's grab it and never let go... Oh, shinny newer idea, let's drop the previous one..."

 

Other things:

- Roy and Thea still rock, but Ro's move was below the belt. "I don't want you to be on the run from the police, Thea, so I'll leave you this red suit and suggest you'll take up vigilantism... to be, you know, chased by the police. but on your own terms!"

- Katana seriously needs to live and become a guest star in Season 4, which will not happen because of that damn Suicide Sqad movie - which will not get a dime from me.

- Ray did not bother me at all. Even his stunt with the plane was ok.

- Oliver as Al-Sahim kind of looks constipated. There, I said it.

[arjumand]

Is it weird that I actually enjoyed most of that episode? Or maybe enjoyed is the wrong word but it flew by. It didn't drag like a lot of episodes this season. The gross wedding is inexcusable but aside from that there was some good individual moments.

 

I continue to love how much Felicity hates Malcolm and the snark between them is kind of great to watch. Also, let it be known that FELICITY SMOAK WAS PROVEN RIGHT ABOUT HIM ALL ALONG.

 

Also that moment where Felicity threw her tablet at one of the assassins and thought she killed him, only to realize it was Malcolm had me laughing so much. OMG I love her.

 

KATANA was perfection. I knew Maseo was going to die and parallel Akio's death in flashbacks but I didn't expect her to kill him. It was a really poignant moment actually. 

 

That last moment was actually the one where the room got a little dusty for me, y'know, damn allergies. Wow, straight in the feels. And I was really angry at Maseo before - my son dies so I wil kill EVERYONE.

 

I also think that what Oliver's done up till now is in no way irredeemable, but I think they're going to keep playing it that way. I know it would have pissed Diggle even more, but I wish Oliver had countered with: "So, I should have kidnapped who, exactly, to convince R'as I could be trusted? Some random, or your wife, who happens to be an army-trained ARGUS agent, who knows more about capture and even torture than most people have forgotten?"

 

I don't like that Diggle is treating Lyla like some damsel in distress here - the only reason she came quietly was because of the baby, otherwise Diggle would have opened his front door to a line of Assassins getting the fuck out of there.

 

If this is the worst that Ollie does in faking "EvilOllie" to stop the destruction of Starling City, I see no reason why we can't have a reasonably upbeat finale with at least Felicity and Thea on Ollie's side heading into the hiatus (it does concern me a bit that they seem to be setting up a Diggle/Laurel alliance for next season though).

 

I agreed with everything you wrote up to this - don't get me wrong, I want this to be the finale. But the way they're acting towards Oliver, and the way even he insists he'll have nothing to go back to (though he was talking to the R'asshole here) suggests they're preparing us for another Oliver "death" or disappearance. This is only my theory, mind, and I hope I'm wrong.

 

ETA Been thinking about the Canary Cry and how it only comes out once an episode, rather than whenever they need it. At first I was going to kid about the batteries running out, but then I thought, perhaps better not use something based on a flashing thing around Laurel's neck against many people with bows and arrows. One shot to the neck and she is done. And dead. At least, that's how I'm justifying it in my head.

Edited May 7, 2015 by arjumand

[raytch]

No, I was just thinking I forgot to mention that. Seriously, I normally don't think much about the bow and arrow and sword stuff. It just is. But then there Diggle is with his gun, and I'm suddenly thinking, why are you ALL not carrying those? (sorry. Maybe my suspension of disbelief was just broken tonight. ) :(

I don't mind that Laurel was wearing the costume without the mask. I prefer it that way to be honest, although I know it's not practical. I cannot stand that wig and mask on her - IMO it makes her look like a clown and I can't even begin to take her seriously when she's wearing it. But agreed about the Canary Cry. If they're going to inflict it on us, why not have her use it in a situation where it actually counts? :(

 

I don't mind the mix of guns and arrows. But my problem with this was that I thought it was badly choreographed. The LoA ninjas looked so clumsy, which, really? They are supposed to be legends, we've been hearing about them since the beginning and they have been repeatedly described as the finest warriors.

 

I don't like Laurel in the full costume either, but then why wear the bodysuit? Why not just wear the same clothes she was wearing the scene before?

I don't know... The whole scene was very undermining for me, especially that the show has always pulled off great fight scenes.

 

I'm trying to like Laurel, I really am. I just hate how she always gets the short end of the stick with these writers.

 

It was good to see Roy though. He's become my favorite character this season. I didn't think the note was him taking a decision for Thea. After all, Thea can always track him down again... but I like where they left things for now. His story with Thea is honestly a lot more compelling for me than Lauliver and Olicity. I know I know I may be stepping all over Olicity shippers here, and I have nothing against them, but looking back on Thea and Roy, the story itself makes a lot more sense than any other love story on the show.

[BkWurm1]

I don't like that Diggle is treating Lyla like some damsel in distress here.

 

I expect them to drag this break in the bromance into next season but I hope at some point maybe Lyla reminds Diggle that she's not one. 

 

 

 

 

Faking Roy's death was different. Oliver wasn't in any danger or pain other than a couple of hours of regrets.

 

I'm sure Felicity will forgive him because that's how Marc Guggenheim writes this show, But if I were Felicity, what I wouldn't be able to forgive is not Oliver asking them to trust him, but Oliver not trusting me.

 

Oliver needs to pay for spending the season not trusting his team and keeping secrets from them IMO.

I guess my question is, what should have Oliver done differently?   I have no reason to think he wouldn't have spared them that mental torture if he could have, so what 's his other options specifically?

 

I was actually expecting worse things to happen. Although it might have been because I was spoiled to the gills, but everything that happened wasn't that surprising to me and didn't annoy me as much. The spoiler speculation thread is a lovely place to read that helps purge most of the raging I might've had, had I come into this unaware. Honestly, I just focused on and enjoyed certain character moments and interactions. I, also, felt the pacing in this episode was pretty steady and moments that needed to breathe got to breathe while nothing much dragged

 

.I agree.  Why Felicity and Diggle (in their own ways) had written off Oliver, I don't get and can't really since the real answer is PLOT!!!  But I knew that going in so most of the rest wasn't so bad. 

 

I can't believe they spent all last episode convincing us that Oliver is no longer Oliver only to tell us that he is still Oliver but with a plan and then to end the episode by telling us wait.. Maybe he's no longer Oliver and just pretended to be Oliver to get all his friends to jail and kill them with the virus.

 

Maybe this is why I had less of a problem with this episode than the last one.   I never believed Oliver was brainwashed and that was confirmed the moment Oliver snuck out to met with Malcolm.   I never doubted Oliver after that.  Prior to the episode I wondered if I was going to be played and that they would make Oliver say he's not brainwashed only to reveal that he is but he met with Malcolm on the sly.   He had his team come in and try to stop the virus.  He failed, but only because Ra's had set a trap...which Oliver walked into, but all his actions IMO supported that he was never brainwashed (conversation with Diggle if I had any doubts) so I knew he wasn't leaving his team to die...even if they weren't so sure.

 

And just in case there were any doubts the flashback helpfully provided the symptoms which did not include getting sleepy sans orifice bleeding.   I thought the episode was pretty straight forward. 

 

The only thing that surprised me was really Roy ditching Thea "for her own good".   Even using the fake virus wasn't that shocking.  I was surprised that he'd waste any and also that he had an airtight chamber but I never for a second thought they were really dying or that Oliver at that point was Al Sah-him.

 

Maybe that viewpoint altered the way I felt about Oliver's actions.  

[SleepDeprived]

2) Did Ray fly in the suit all the way from Starling City, and if so, how exactly did he go to the bathroom?  Or is this just more proof that the LoA is in Wyoming?

 

I googled images of the ATOM costume to try to figure this out. Not to be a perve but the bathroom issue bothers me about most superhero costumes, too. I think that metal panel situated directly on his crotch is detachable. So, um, I'ma put this under a spoiler cut because I couldn't think of a way to make it sound less... suggestive?

Palmer could've just removed the panel while flying, pulled down his tights a little, and whipped it out to give the ocean (or some corn fields if NP is in Wyoming) a golden shower while on his way to Nanda Parbat.

 

I was surprised to find myself crying over Maseo. I really liked Rick Yune and I thought it was a beautiful death scene. 

 

Just quickly wanted to say the actor's name is Karl Yune. But, yep, definitely agree that it was a very well-done death scene.

[Jediknight]

I like the Canary cry frankly, in terms of not using it at the right time I guess it's as expendable as Nyssa's fighting skills and Oliver's inability to defeat Malcolm but ability to defeat Nyssa and so on and so forth....

With Nyssa, I think she holds back when she and Oliver actually fight.  She still loves Sara, and holds back because Oliver loves Sara, and Sara loved Oliver.  I think Oliver holds back as well, it's all about Sara.  Neither one can go full blast against someone who meant so much to Sara.  That's also a reason Nyssa trained Laurel.  She knows Laurel's not going to stop being a vigilante, but she can damn sure train her to be better.  It's a way for Nyssa to protect Sara's sister while honoring Sara herself.

 

As for the knife, I think Oliver and Nyssa are playing Ra's.  They had to do it, because Ra's would be expecting Nyssa to try something.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One of the awesome things about these recent Hong Kong flashbacks is that Oliver is wearing a hat to hide his laughably terrible wig.

 

I guess all that training from Nyssa paid off because no one on Team Arrow is making fun of Laurel's bad fighting skills anymore. Oh, yeah, that's because Oliver is gone.

 

Hilarious that Diggle had Felicity and Laurel enter his apartment the back way so that the neighbors wouldn't notice two chicks (one dressed in a shiny black dominatrix outfit) visiting while his wife was out of town, but it's totally fine to start screaming at each other about Oliver because the neighbors are deaf!

 

Instead of sending Tatsu, who Diggle, Felicity, and Laurel had never met, why didn't Malcolm just whip out his phone or ipad and have Oliver record a message to them?

 

This Ra's seems to have a man-crush on Oliver Queen, he's more invested in planning a wedding than safeguarding the well-traveled Appalachian trail to his hidey-hole in the mountains, he's wearing Bea Arthur's outfits and he's seems obsessive compulsive about suffixing everything with "of the Demon."   "I will now apply the styling gel of the Demon ..."

Ha, spot on description! All of that "of the Demon" stuff reminds me of kids who want to label everything with their names, so now I'm picturing Ra's going crazy with a label maker on everything in Nanda Parbat. Imagine little white labels on everything: "fork of the Demon," "toothbrush of the Demon," "candle of the Demon," "other candle of the Demon."

Edited May 7, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[tv echo]

Although it's implied that Ray signed over ownership of Palmer Technologies to Felicity, I think there's room for the possibility that he gave the company to Oliver and just needed two officers' signatures to make the document legal (you know, maybe the company bylaws require two officers to sign off on any transaction that major, and he already got shareholders' approval).  

 

As for Felicity signing the document without reading it, she has been working with Ray for several months now and they've developed a trust relationship.  She's probably signed a lot of documents for him by now, probably read them in the beginning and then had to sign a lot of routine documents for him to keep the company running.  She probably thought it was just another routine document.  He did say to her, "Just a little corporate stuff, Miss Vice President."

 

As for Ray's motive - Ray only took over Queen Consolidated because he wanted something that QC had in order to make his Atom suit work (which is also why he wanted Felicity in the beginning).  Now he has a working Atom suit and doesn't need the company.  "Palmer Technologies" is just what he renamed QC.  As a billionaire, he probably has a lot of companies all over the world and maybe even a main headquarters somewhere called Palmer Inc. (probably the new lair for the Spinoff).  He did seem to leave Starling City a lot.

 

As for Felicity's qualifications to run the company - From the name "Palmer Technologies", Ray has apparently converted QC into a technology company.  Felicity is certainly more qualified to run a technology company than Oliver was to run QC (or Pepper Potts was to run Stark Industries).  This would be more akin to Lucius Fox taking charge of running Wayne Enterprises.

 

Additional Notes:

--Ra's may have ordered his assassins to capture (and not kill) Team Arrow so that he could interrogate them as to who leaked his plan.  That would explain the assassins' half-assed fighting.
--The whole scene between Tatsu and Maseo (the fight, then his death) was one of the best on the show.
--Just wanted to add that, with the Roy/Thea scene, we again have a guy abandoning the girl in bed after sex and again have the guy making the decision about their relationship, leaving the girl without a say in it.

 

ETA:  Posts below prove that Ray did indeed transfer ownership of the company to Felicity.  My other comments still stand.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

I think if you sub in Diggle being pissed about Sara being left alone for Lyla being taken - the anger makes more sense.  Yes Lyla can take care of herself, but baby Sara can't.  And while Diggle loves the hell out of his kickass wife, the fact that he failed to keep Lyla and Sara safe from his former best friend/brother has to be a huge hit for him - something that wouldn't be easy to process or forgive.  Then for him to find out just a day or two later that his friend was faking it and targeted his wife and left his baby girl unattended all because he had to play some con?  I think Diggle should only be more angry - not less.  Diggle has good reason not to ever trust Oliver again.

Substituting leaving Sara unattended makes Diggle's anger seem more appropriate. Hopefully, OQ or someone trusted was watching over Sara while waiting for F/D to return. I was trying to figure out ways it would have been better to not leave LSara unattended. Perhaps dropping her off somewhere (with MM or Ray) or maybe even taking her & protecting her himself. But those would have been risky too, there really is no good way. Honestly, if OQ or MM was watching over her from the window as creepy as that sounds, it would have made me feel better. I haven't watched episode since last week. But didn't OQ call them as soon as they got into the nursery? Perhaps he was watching Sara from the window or how else would they know when F/D got into the nursery. I do understand, when you consider Lil Sara how its going to be hard for Diggle to trust OQ again for a long time. 

[apinknightmare]

He transferred ownership to Felicity.

I read what I could of the document on pause, haha.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare