S03.E22: This Is Your Sword

[Chaser]

Felicity drugged Oliver to try and save his life. Oliver is (probably?) doing the same here. I can't get mad at him for that because I wasn't mad at her. That being said..It doesn't excuse Oliver for the dumbass choices he's made.

 

What was with Laurel's cellblock faith in Oliver? She was totally Oliver is a lost cause and ready to kill him last episode and this episode she was giving Felicity the side-eye for….honestly I'm not sure. Then in the cells its all 'Oliver wouldn't let that happen' and 'We believe in you.'

[SonofaBiscuit]

I have no idea what any of Maseo's motivations were. He helped Oliver, remembered his son, then tries to kill his wife. What? Too bad, they could have been a badass, crime fighting, power couple.

 

 

I guess that this is what we get for skipping episodes.  Apparently we missed all of the parts that would make this make sense.

 

More than anything, I am so bothered by the fact that Diggle and Felicity's last thoughts are that Oliver has abandoned them to die.

[AyChihuahua]

I think it's an agree to disagree thing.   I didn't care a lot about the kidnapping, but if I were her or Dig or any of the rest of them I'd never forgive that one.  She didn't think she COULD die, like with Slade, she thought she was actually actively dying while he walked away.  

[nksarmi]

"As I thought, I'm not happy with the Oliver/Diggle rift. If it's over thinking he left them to die, then yeah, that's a pretty shitty thing to do, but otherwise, I think a nice left hook should cover it."

 

Hmmmm a left hook and maybe relocating to a new place to live where you make sure Oliver nor Felicity or anyone else on TA never knows your address again.  Also make sure that Oliver never knows anything about Lyla's schedule or baby Sara's daycare/preschool/school activities.  Then yea, sure maybe he can trust him the next time something bad happens and Oliver needs to fake kidnapping someone Diggle loves to carry out some plan he can't entrust Diggle to know about?  Sure - I can see it working out just fine.

[AyChihuahua]

Felicity drugged Oliver to try and save his life. Oliver is (probably?) doing the same here. I can't get mad at him for that because I wasn't mad at her. That being said..It doesn't excuse Oliver for the dumbass choices he's made.

She didn't make him think she was KILLING HIM when she drugged him.  

[apinknightmare]

I think it's an agree to disagree thing.   I didn't care a lot about the kidnapping, but if I were her or Dig or any of the rest of them I'd never forgive that one.  She didn't think she COULD die, like with Slade, she thought she was actually actively dying while he walked away.  

 

But she doesn't. He asked her to trust him and she did. Yes, I admit that what happened was scary and horrible, but he proved to her she was right to put her faith in him. In real life this is probably unforgivable, but on this show, I really don't think it's anything. Especially since he sends help to go and get them. 

[AyChihuahua]

He may have asked her to trust him, but from the conversation between Dig and Felicity, they thought they were dying.  Not that they were engaged in a dangerous pursuit that could go badly, but that they were actively dying while he walked away to get married.  I would be perfectly happy with the season ending with everyone other than Thea telling him never to speak to or otherwise contact them again.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

 

Me. And I'm a lawyer who's spent a considerable amount of time combing through contracts to find loopholes for my clients. But I'm terrible, terrible about reading paperwork before I sign it, if I don't already know it's something important. Ray didn't indicate his papers were at all important, so I give Felicity a pass, because when it comes to this, she is me, LOL.

Alright... I'll give her a little bit of a pass. It's not like I haven't signed papers without reading every line. But you think she would have at least looked at the front page... I don't need an in depth reading but at least look at the first page. Almost wish they had kept the reveal until next week. Last year OQ lost his company in a quick signature, this year FS got it back in one. Love the parallels there.

[paigow]

2. Nyssa, romantically trying to stab Oliver at the altar. I'm on your side there, Nyssa. Also, fabulous choices of outfits tonight. Just fabulous.

 

Just proves that LoA & Dothraki are similar to a point....Although deaths are expected at Dothraki Weddings, the groom is usually exempt.

[Chaser]

She didn't make him think she was KILLING HIM when she drugged him.  

I think that's what the 'Trust Me' was for earlier. I thought it was about the wedding, but I think that was Oliver's way of saying 'Shit is going to get bad but I have a plan.' Wish it had been clearer tho.

[apinknightmare]

I think that's what the 'Trust Me' was for earlier. I thought it was about the wedding, but I think that was Oliver's way of saying 'Shit is going to get bad but I have a plan.' Wish it had been clearer tho.

 

 

That's exactly why he asked her to trust him. I'm not saying that it wasn't scary or horrible, but she did trust him and he's proving to her that she was right to do it. I really don't think it's a thing in this fictional universe. In real life I'd feel differently. 

[AyChihuahua]

I think that's what the 'Trust Me' was for earlier. I thought it was about the wedding, but I think that was Oliver's way of saying 'Shit is going to get bad but I have a plan.' Wish it had been clearer tho.

But she didn't know or believe that, or she and Digg wouldn't have had an apparently heartbreaking "we're dying" conversation.  

 

 

That's exactly why he asked her to trust him. I'm not saying that it wasn't scary or horrible, but she did trust him and he's proving to her that she was right to do it

Yes, but again, she either didn't believe him or didn't catch on to that, or she would have told Digg and the others it would be okay instead of saying goodbye because she truly believed she and everyone else were actively dying while he walked away.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

But she didn't know or believe that, or she and Digg wouldn't have had an apparently heartbreaking "we're dying" conversation.  

 

Yes, but again, she either didn't believe him or didn't catch on to that, or she would have told Digg and the others it would be okay instead of saying goodbye because she truly believed she and everyone else were actively dying while he walked away.

That's when Felicity wakes up like "Oh Frack! Thats what he meant!"

 

Kind of love the Fracks this episode :-)

[apinknightmare]

Yes, but again, she either didn't believe him or didn't catch on to that, or she would have told Digg and the others it would be okay instead of saying goodbye because she truly believed she and everyone else were actively dying while he walked away.

 

I know she did. But when she wakes up she's gonna realize, "hey, I can trust this guy." Because he asked her and he followed through on that trust.

[Ang]

OK, so all of that happened - but can we take a shallow moment to ponder how Roy suddenly got so hot? I mean like wowza.

I've been looking all week for a reason to watch this episode. And now I have it: Roy. I'll watch it for Hot Roy. Seems worth it.

I'll just have to go through the thread some more and figure out exactly which scenes to mute, or rather, whether there are any scenes worth listening to.

[KenyaJ]

Last year OQ lost his company in a quick signature, this year FS got it back in one. Love the parallels there.

 

They're meant to be!

 

On another note, if someone temporarily makes me believe I'm about to die, but

creates the circumstances to ensure I don't

, I don't really see the point of holding a grudge. Considering the 782 times these characters have been on the verge of death due to various villains and general mayhem, I'm fairly certain the 15-ish minutes they thought they were going to die isn't going to scar them for life.

[apinknightmare]

I've been looking all week for a reason to watch this episode. And now I have it: Roy. I'll watch it for Hot Roy. Seems worth it.

I'll just have to go through the thread some more and figure out exactly which scenes to mute, or rather, whether there are any scenes worth listening to.

 

I actually enjoyed this way more than I thought I would, probably because I was dreading it. I think it's all worth watching, except for maybe the last minute and a half.

[dtissagirl]

I enjoyed this episode a whole lot too, but it was mostly because of HOW soapy it felt. And campy. Which is weird when a kid died, then a woman killed her beloved husband, and then a psychopath forced his lesbian daughter to marry a straight dude. And then everyone died. But it felt like ~soapy campy funtimes~ to me.

Or. Maybe I'm really over Arrow.

[Chaser]

What was the point of 3x19? Wasn't that about Oliver allowing people to help him? He came up with this STUPID plan to trust Malcolm over EVERYONE ELSE that same night. WTF

[quarks]

Yeah, I don't really see Team Arrow - except maybe Ray, who really didn't deserve that and is the one guy in the group who doesn't really know Oliver - staying angry at Oliver over this.  Oliver not letting them in on the plan, sure, bad actors or not.  (Kudos to Barrowman for delivering that line.) Oliver leaving a toddler unsupervised in a crib, sure. This, no.

 

I'm actually more puzzled at how easily they all assumed Oliver went to the dark side. That, I think, should be something - along with Oliver still not telling them things - that should be addressed on the show, but probably won't be.

[apinknightmare]

I enjoyed this episode a whole lot too, but it was mostly because of HOW soapy it felt. And campy. Which is weird when a kid died, then a woman killed her beloved husband, and then a psychopath forced his lesbian daughter to marry a straight dude. And then everyone died. But it felt like ~soapy campy funtimes~ to me.

Or. Maybe I'm really over Arrow.

 

I'll be honest - I was actually enthralled watching this. Like, I didn't even take much time to snark on it on Twitter because I was really interested in what was happening. I was totally entertained, even when people were dying. I mean, everything moved so fast that the deaths were a blip, and at least with Akio it had been foreshadowed for so long and we knew he was dead already that I didn't really have any emotions over it. Same for Maseo. 

[Reba]

I feel more confused, and like I missed some episodes than shocked, surprised. Not sure how I feel about the episode yet - I was rivited watching it, but I don't have an urge to rewatch and I am not sure I care how/if TA survives.

It's kind of like when you are reading a fan fic and the characters are really OOC it just snaps you out of being interested in the story. So I guess I am thinking they went too far trying to shock. Sometimes we all want to see the predicable, fun, in character but with a small twist.

[Trini]

 

(Also, secret twin! Forced marriage! This show seriously could not have gotten more soapy this season if it had been the game plan all along.)

 

And at least 3 regulars that wre dead or mostly dead!

Edited May 7, 2015 by Trini

[ottoDbusdriver]

Ray needs to get tougher ATOM suits -- they get trashed pretty easily.  Where's some vibranium when you need it ? Whoops, wrong universe. </snark>

[statsgirl]

I agree. Why would she not forgive him? He looked right at her and asked her to trust him. It's terrible that she thought she was going to die,

but, you know, she didn't? And then he sends some one to get her and everyone else? 

 

 

More than anything, I am so bothered by the fact that Diggle and Felicity's last thoughts are that Oliver has abandoned them to die.

Oliver asked them to trust him, first through Malcolm, then through Tatsu and finally he said it himself.  Then he asked to speak to Diggle alone but not Felicity.  Then he told Felicity that he was marrying Nyssa.  TAnd then he walked away as they thought they were going to die.

 

There is trusting someone, and then there is asking to be hurt over and over and over again, as Felcity has been all season.  He repeatedly tells her he loves her and walks away, he won't respect her enough to let her move on, and now he expects her to trust him but when he can speak to someone, it's Diggle and she thinks she's going to die while he walks away.

 

There a point at which the amount of psychological damage Oliver has done to Felicity can't be forgiven.  She's like a battered woman, always getting hurt, always going back for more.

 

He may have asked her to trust him, but from the conversation between Dig and Felicity, they thought they were dying.  Not that they were engaged in a dangerous pursuit that could go badly, but that they were actively dying while he walked away to get married.  I would be perfectly happy with the season ending with everyone other than Thea telling him never to speak to or otherwise contact them again.

Yeah. I think everyone needs to tell Oliver to get the hell out of their lives for good.

 

I enjoyed this episode a whole lot too, but it was mostly because of HOW soapy it felt. And campy. Which is weird when a kid died, then a woman killed her beloved husband, and then a psychopath forced his lesbian daughter to marry a straight dude. And then everyone died. But it felt like ~soapy campy funtimes~ to me..

Anyone remember the TV show Soap?  It was really funny parody of a soap opera. That's what this episode felt like, a parody of an action TV show.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[Angel12d]

One thing that confused me was the whiplash I got from Laurel and how she felt about Oliver. When it first started she couldn't believe that Felicity was defending Oliver and then suddenly she believed in him and said that he wouldn't leave them and I'm like MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND WOMAN. I mean, really. 

[La Dee Da]

As an ultimate frisbee player, I must applaud Felicity's tablet technique - she had excellent spin to maximize distance and accuracy. 

 

I'm probably gonna be wrong, but I kinda thought Malcolm blabbing to Ra's that Oliver is playing him was still part of the plan. So that Malcolm would be killed by the fake virus along with the others, and not get the ~special death treatment~ that Ra's was planning for Malcolm.

 

I think you're right!  After a nice, refreshing nap, Malcolm will tell them this is totally part of their plan, Tatsu will break them out and the team race back to Starling to stop whatever Ra's is planning next, either for destroying Starling or planning a romantic honeymoon.  But is it sufficiently twisty for this show, though?  Maybe the team is actually in the know - one of those they know what Malcolm knows but Malcolm doesn't know that they know type of deals.  Oliver shouldn't trust Malcolm - there's still time to quadruple-cross or whatever level he's up to - and it sets up an opportunity to sass him about their acting abilities.  And maybe make some sense about their mindsets about what Oliver is up to.    

 

Whatever the case, it undermines Ra's as a diabolical mastermind - he seems awfully easy to deceive.

 

The Thea-Roy storyline was done nicely, although she seems pretty back to normal.  Although maybe there are some mixed messages in telling her that a life on the run from the police isn't a life and then bequeathing her his vigilante suit.

[Carrie Ann]

I think if you sub in Diggle being pissed about Sara being left alone for Lyla being taken - the anger makes more sense.  Yes Lyla can take care of herself, but baby Sara can't.  And while Diggle loves the hell out of his kickass wife, the fact that he failed to keep Lyla and Sara safe from his former best friend/brother has to be a huge hit for him - something that wouldn't be easy to process or forgive.  Then for him to find out just a day or two later that his friend was faking it and targeted his wife and left his baby girl unattended all because he had to play some con?  I think Diggle should only be more angry - not less.  Diggle has good reason not to ever trust Oliver again.

 

I can totally see both sides of the Diggle's overreacting debate. But while I can picture him quickly understanding and being okay with Oliver again, I also think his anger is justified and I'm not really unhappy with this direction. Here's the thing: Lyla was in real danger. Yes, she can handle herself, but you know, the Boomerang guy got a pretty good hit in earlier this season, and in the fight with the LoA, Oliver was also occupied (uh, fighting Dig), so he couldn't have really been sure Lyla was safe the whole time. She was fighting off two dudes at once. She was in danger. And Sara was alone in her crib for some amount of time, which is super duper scary for a new parent. Like, on a molecular level.

 

The deal is that Oliver decided, unilaterally, that those were risks worth taking. Acceptable. That his best friend's wife and child being vulnerable was okay, because he's playing a bigger game here. Add in the fact that he was lying to them all along, and this whole

near-death ruse situation,

and yeah, I don't have a problem with Dig staying mad going into S4.

 

But I do think that at this point, the team has to understand the stakes, and the lengths Oliver has had to go to try to stop Ra's, so if

Felicity forgives him pretty quickly for the drugging ruse thing,

I guess I won't mind.

[BkWurm1]

This was an episode that had I not been totally spoiled for, I would have more issues with it.  Because I knew the motivations and opinions of the Team about Oliver were going to be totally effed up, I'm pretty much in a place where I am ok with shrugging my shoulders and saying eh, whatever.   We know it's out of character for the team not to be working to bust Oliver out of the LoA and we know once they thought Oliver was Brainwashed they'd have worked hard to snap him out of it.  The fact that we got none of that just means it's all plot driven and something I'm ready to ignore.  At this point all the OOC stuff I'm ready to write off as temporary insanity on everyone's part due to constant emotional trauma. 

 

Which meant I was able to rather enjoy the episode. 

 

Diggle is overreacting but yup, I'm ignoring that.  Felicity was trying to reconcile what they saw, Diggle's firm belief that Oliver is gone and her total belief in him.   It was easier to believe that he was brainwashed and a different person rather than that he'd just stopped giving a damn.  The alternative, that the whole city was going to be destroyed if Oliver didn't defeat Ra's, well, that's probably not something anyone would have thought of as an explanation so again because it is so OOC and I know it's mostly plot driven so Oliver not being brainwashed is a SUPRISE, I'm again willing to do a little fanwanking and move on. 

 

Oliver didn't so much put more trust in Malcolm but was told by Malcolm what taking on the mantle of Ra's would entail.  Did he even know before he had to take Thea to Nanda Parbat?  He couldn't tell his team because at that point he didn't have a plan.  He also didn't have any contact with anyone to have the chance to say he was faking AND he was trying to make his actions look good.  (Now Malcolm could have said something earlier but he chose not to.)

 

Speaking of Malcolm.   So Oliver had a prearranged meeting with Malcolm scheduled for like 4-5 weeks after they took Thea home.   (Or maybe Malcolm was late by a few days not just hours)  It seems that Oliver knew about the virus but clearly not how Ra's got it and both he and Malcolm were surprised how quickly Ra's would insist on the timeline.   So Oliver says they need help and Malcolm brings in the gang to take care of things....except Ra's was expecting them so he apparently let a bunch of his worst fighters get culled before stepping in and gloating. 

 

The fight was so so.  Yeah a lot of action but after Laurel got roughed up by the mugger last week her fighting was a joke.  Tatsu on the other hand was wonderful.   Didn't realize how invested I was in her story until she had to kill Maseo and I found myself tearing up.   Side note:  apparently Maseo also doesn't know what it is like to hold your dying child and tell him he'll be fine knowing your promises are lies.  Katsu knows, but not Maseo.  Maybe that's why he couldn't forgive himself.   He wasn't even there when he died.  Not sure why he thought giving the Alpha Omega virus to Ra's would make him feel better.  It's not like he gets to target General Shrive.  Again, the motivations make no sense but that is the whole episode so moving on...

 

Ray handed over his company.  I do believe it's because without Felicity's help his suit would have never happened plus with her constant cloud he probably though she could use the distraction.   I bought in to her signing without reading. As VP she's probably signing all sorts of meaningless crap and she trusts him or at least doesn't care enough about life to go to the effort of asking him a second time. 

 

After Oliver told them to not say a word, notice Felicity doesn't say a peep until it looked like they were about to die.  The clip they played in the preview with her shouting "we trusted you" sounded way worse than in the actual episode.      

 

Thea and Roy.  Poor noble hot boy (seriously, he was looking verrrrry good).   Trying to save Thea from herself.  Yeah he learned that bad behavior (making decisions for her) from Oliver.  I doubt when Felicity sent Thea to him she expected him to ditch Thea in some absurd attempt at nobility.   Again, I really question his motivations and his actions.  Not as much as EVERYONE else but yeah, plot driven rather than firmly grounded in character.   I mean, didn't he hear the part where Thea was alone?  She might have run from Starling, but she didn't have anything in Starling to run from.  She didn't have anything left but a club she wasn't interesting in and her brother's vigilante friends.    Still, plot must be obeyed!  So long Roy. I hope we see you soon.

[wonderwall]

IDK why but I just don't see how Oliver and Nyssa getting married will create angst for O/F. Maybe it's because I don't take it seriously enough, maybe it's because Nyssa/Oliver pretty much can't stand each other and the wedding is probably only valid in NP. I don't see them signing any marriage certificates so yeah, I don't see the marriage lasting. I literally don't care about the marriage enough to be affected by it :p Baby mama drama has more chance of creating angst for O/F next season than the O/N marriage.

 

As for Oliver's fakeout in the end, I think Diggle will stew over it for a while, Felicity will probably give him a hard time but forgive him in the end (and that doesn't make her a weak character, imo. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Greg Berlanti is going to write Felicity next episode), Laurel not so sure because she's pretty hot and cold regarding Oliver.

 

Was what Oliver did wrong? Yes. Is Oliver unforgivable? No. But I do hope that Oliver suffers the consequences of his actions and learns from his mistakes. As for Oliver coldly leaving them inside to 'die', I mean what do you guys expect? He's playing a part and he can't react or else everyone will know he's playing Ra's.

 

I wanted to punch Oliver after the episode, so I hope Oliver redeems himself (because unlike Malcolm, I feel like he can be redeemed). 

[BkWurm1]

Well, I guess money is tight on this show since they just killed off 90% of the main cast.....

 

 

That was the cliffhanger?  Really?  Are we truly supposed to think they are all dead?  We weren't born yesterday.   And the

preview was literally 2 seconds later where everyone was shown fine and dandy.

 

 

I am still holding out hope that Diggle was in on everything...and he inoculated everyone.  His rage at Oliver is kind of dumb.  I get being a little peeved, but Lyla is fine and so is Sara.  And Sara is not even a year, she won't remember her mom being kidnapped.  I promise she won't.

 

Poor Tatsu. 

I don't think Diggle was in on it but Oliver would have had a chance to slip him the inoculation when they were having their private conversation.  But then he when he was shooting everyone up they would have been let in on the plan, including Malcolm, who has now double crossed them so Felicity gets to tell the word Malcolm Merlyn is alive.   Looking forward to that. 

 

 

 

Character moments I didn't love:

• Oliver really trusted Malcolm over his team? Really?
• I didn't really like Oliver in this episode. Let your team in on the god damn plan! They deserve to know!
• At the beginning I didn't understand John's rage at Oliver. Still don't. I didn't really believe that rage was justifiable... But after that end John Diggle has every right to punch Oliver now

 

Yep, he can be furious.  This on top of what happened with Lyla and Sara would be a good reason for Diggle to be wary but before...not so much.  

 

I know the big twist is supposed to be Diggle giving up on Oliver because of kidnapping Lyla but tbqh, leaving them in that cell thinking they're going to die like that is much, much worse.

 

I will be disappointed in Felicity if she forgives Oliver for that one.

Malcolm is presumably dead from the virus now along with Diggle, Felicity, Laurel and Ray,.

 

I think the moment they wake up alive they will be able to forgive Oliver.   It was horrible what he had to do, but what was his other choice?   He still saves them and I think Felicity will not have a hard time forgiving him.  I forgive him.  His original plan of calling in his team and taking out the virus failed.   He was stuck letting them think he was letting them die and stuck going through with this marriage if he hoped to get close to the virus again.   It was the only option that he had. 

I understand Diggle being mad but taking Lyla was the lesser of two evils. When I was taking a self-defense course, we were told that if we were holding a baby and had to fight back, drop the baby and fight. Babies can survive being left alone in a crib for a couple of hours; harder to survive being kidnapped.

 

They really did a number on Olicity here -- if Felicity forgives Oliver she's a wimp; if she doesn't she's a bitch.

Again, I really don't see it that way.   He wasn't being deliberately cruel and you know it killed him to do it but the alternative was them all dying.  Instead, they live and he has a shot at saving the city.  She forgave him for a fake (not fake) I Love You so she could be bait for Slade.  This would have been another awful experience but she's actually safer this time around.   I'm ok with he forgiving him. 

[tennisgurl]

On the plus side, we did get some good Dig/Felicity stuff, always a fan. And Laurels outfit didn't look all that stupid! Although, he being able to kick the crap out of several LoA members continues to make me suspect that they always send the B Team out to fight intruders, while the A Team goes out to assassinate people. Or they just stand around, looking all threatening and mysterious and what not.

 

Seriously. Roy and Thea spin-off show. Make it happen! 

[AyChihuahua]

 

As for Oliver coldly leaving them inside to 'die', I mean what do you guys expect? He's playing a part and he can't react or else everyone will know he's playing Ra's.

The virus was not a last minute thing on Oliver's part...it was obviously fake, which means he had it for a purpose.  So why didn't he mention something to Digg when he spoke with him alone?  "Hey, I might have to make it seem like I'm killing you with that virus you all know about, but totes don't worry, it's fake.  It'll just make you pass out, and I'll send Barry (or whoever) to get you out of here."

 

Easy peasy, no massive PTSD, no AssholeOliver.

 

 

She forgave him for a fake (not fake) I Love You so she could be bait for Slade.

Forgiving someone for being kind of thoughtless is pretty different than forgiving someone for making you think you were actively dying while he walked away to get married.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

The virus was not a last minute thing on Oliver's part...it was obviously fake, which means he had it for a purpose.  So why didn't he mention something to Digg when he spoke with him alone?  "Hey, I might have to make it seem like I'm killing you with that virus you all know about, but totes don't worry, it's fake.  It'll just make you pass out, and I'll send Barry (or whoever) to get you out of here."

 

Easy peasy, no massive PTSD, no AssholeOliver.

 

 

He might've told him that if he'd been given longer. Oliver clearly had more to say when the guards interrupted them and told him that Ra's was demanding that Diggle be taken back to the cell. 

[AyChihuahua]

He might've told him that if he'd been given longer. Oliver clearly had more to say when the guards interrupted them and told him that Ra's was demanding that Diggle be taken back to the cell. 

How long does it take to say sorry I was an asshole, I was totally faking, and btw, I have a vial of FAKE VIRUS I might have to toss at you, so don't panic.  He really should have led with that info.

[KenyaJ]

The virus was not a last minute thing on Oliver's part...it was obviously fake, which means he had it for a purpose.  So why didn't he mention something to Digg when he spoke with him alone?  "Hey, I might have to make it seem like I'm killing you with that virus you all know about, but totes don't worry, it's fake.  It'll just make you pass out, and I'll send Barry (or whoever) to get you out of here."

 

Maybe that's what he was getting to before Dig cut him off to tell him he didn't trust or respect him. Let a dude finish what he's saying, Dig.

[apinknightmare]

How long does it take to say sorry I was an asshole, I was totally faking, and btw, I have a vial of FAKE VIRUS I might have to toss at you, so don't panic.  He really should have led with that info.

 

Yes but then there would be no cliffhanger! He cycled through two out of the three - he just didn't get to the fake virus part. 

[Xenith22]

First of all I think I may need to start calling Laurel the Black CarAlarm for now until something is done to fix that godawful sound effect chosen for her "Canary" cry.

 

Roy Harper is a bit of douche after leaving Thea without saying goodbye in person...again.   At least he left her a note this time I guess? Thea's first instinct is to run away?  Pot meet kettle?

 

DId we REALLY need the implication that Ra's raped Nyssa's mother?  Or that Ra's was going to have Oliver rape Nyssa?  I really do not love those kind of uncomfortable plot points on these kind of "fun" shows.  Leave that for SVUs of the world.

 

He may have asked her to trust him, but from the conversation between Dig and Felicity, they thought they were dying.

I'm sorry but then they are both being written as freaking morons.  At that point it's been established through Malcolm/Tatsu that Oliver has had an elaborate plan, and Oliver has broken Al-Sa-Him character on multiple occasions to them.  I can understand Diggle being pissed about the Layla/Sarah situation (because even if he had no intention of harming her, there was still an unpredictability element to the LoS endangering her, plus babies should never be left alone.  If Lyla did not get a chance to set Sarah down just right there could have been a danger of something like SIDS.), but come on if Oliver is really Oliver (who has always been a bit of dick) do they really think he would walk aw ay from them dying without blinking an eye?  It just screams of really bad writing if we are supposed to believe that is what they actually believe.   (Roy and Malcolm are a different story.  I could see them believing it.)

 

On a positive note I was shocked at how moving Maseo's death was.  I mean I saw it coming a mile away, but the way those two actors just sold the scene it was a really touching/emotional scene that I was not expecting.  Nice job to not have the background music wreck it either which has been a recent trend.  But yeah...has Katana been announced as being added to the spin-off yet?

 

And everybody dies.

The end.

Previously...on Game of Arrows.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Xenith22

[statsgirl]

For Oliver, talking to Diggle was more important than telling Felicity that he had a plan to get her out.  Any way I look at it, he was more worried about Diggle's reactions than Felicity's.

 

So what if they wake up and realize that they're not dead? It's still psychological abuse that Oliver is doing to them, especially to Felicity who he says he loves.

 

At this point, when Oliver keeps hurting Felicity and she keeps forgiving him and going back to him, it starts to look like an abusive relationship.

Thea and Roy.  Poor noble hot boy (seriously, he was looking verrrrry good).   Trying to save Thea from herself.  Yeah he learned that bad behavior (making decisions for her) from Oliver.  I doubt when Felicity sent Thea to him she expected him to ditch Thea in some absurd attempt at nobility.   Again, I really question his motivations and his actions.  Not as much as EVERYONE else but yeah, plot driven rather than firmly grounded in character.   I mean, didn't he hear the part where Thea was alone?  She might have run from Starling, but she didn't have anything in Starling to run from.  She didn't have anything left but a club she wasn't interesting in and her brother's vigilante friends.    Still, plot must be obeyed!  So long Roy. I hope we see you soon.

Yeah. Felicity thought she was sending Thea to Roy so they could have a happy ending together.

 

But the theme of s3 is that Thea Must Not Have Any Agency and so he leaves without telling much less consulting her.  Because it's so bad to be on the run from the police that he wants to her to out there getting hurt by fighting bad guys and running from the police like that.

[Lady Calypso]

How long does it take to say sorry I was an asshole, I was totally faking, and btw, I have a vial of FAKE VIRUS I might have to toss at you, so don't panic.  He really should have led with that info.

 

I think maybe he just wanted to make sure that Malcolm told them everything he was supposed to, because who can trust Malcolm, but then Diggle started yelling at Oliver before could get a word in edgewise. If he interrupted Diggle, it could have made him more hostile and then the guards were in there before he could really defend himself. So I guess I understand, plus, I don't think Oliver, at that time, knew his original plan would fail. Obviously, he had an inkling and that's why he had a failsafe, but at the time, I think he truly thought he had a bit more time to explain things after the wedding. Although...part of me wonders if this was also part of Malcolm and Oliver's plan, to make sure Ra's fully trusted him, but it would be stupid. I guess we'll find out from Malcolm for sure next episode.

 

Honestly, as I think about this, I think Oliver did what he could. Should he have told Diggle and Felicity? Sure, that would have been good and it would have been on par with their dynamic in season 2, but Ra's is a different villain than Slade. Slade was just super crazy and saw things through one hole. Ra's is clearly smarter and could have seen through the acts. Felicity might not have been able to hold it together, despite her being able to with Slade. Oliver wanted to lessen the risk of Ra's finding out, thus why he told Malcolm. Also, Malcolm's the only one to be able to contact Oliver secretly. It's not like they could have communicated through the Internet, because it seems Nanda Parbat doesn't have secret Internet, and Malcolm's the only one to know how to get around Nanda Parbat. So yes, I can see why Diggle and Felicity weren't told. I imagine Ra's probably had some assassins checking in on Team Arrow shortly after Oliver joined. Again, a lot of this is just assumptions based on what I've seen.

 

And yes, I do think the writing for this arc is stupid. There is no way that Diggle would give up this easily on Oliver, especially now that he knows he was faking. He knows the threat Ra's is. He KNOWS Ra's is capable of killing anyone he wants. He killed Thea, for crying out loud, just to get Oliver to say yes! He destroyed The Arrow's reputation and got Roy sent out of town through a faked death, which means Roy has to spend his life on the run. And yet this is the thing that breaks Diggle's trust in Oliver? With him knowing that Oliver wants to take down Ra's? Did he expect it was going to be easy on their friendship and that things would remain hunky dory? Felicity had faith and still trusted Oliver to the very end. Laurel, well, let's not go there with her. But Diggle's the one I'm most disappointed in, because he's acting like Oliver has a choice in any of this. It's not like he kidnapped your baby, for crying out loud! He only kidnapped Lyla and probably knew Diggle would be back home sooner rather than later. He placed no harm on either of them, when he could have. He sold his brainwashing act without doing too much damage, and yet Diggle is acting like this is the worst thing Oliver's done. No, trust me, he's done way worse to all of you, like keeping a bunch of secrets with Slade. This is bad, yes, but not nearly as bad as it could be, and it's understandable.

 

I won't blame them for getting mad about thinking they were dying. But once he explains it to them, they should understand. What else was Oliver supposed to do? They should be thankful that he's not brainwashed, or else that virus would have actually killed them! What if he was brainwashed and Malcolm decided to lie to Ra's? They'd all be dead. Yes, it's an awful act but it should not push them away for good. For a bit, yes. Being yelled at for a while, yes. But it should not be the thing to break the team up. Oliver had to sacrifice a lot. Look at him sacrificing his relationships to stop Ra's, to really save them all. It's frustrating to see Oliver self-sacrificing and self-destructive at the same time. Poor guy needs therapy and I do feel bad for him because at the end of the day, this was the only choice he had. He couldn't do anything else to stop Ra's and save himself and his friends and family. They would all be dead if it wasn't for Oliver right now, and I believe that wholeheartedly. 

 

But personally, it is the writing for this arc that makes it so bad. Oliver's being written just fine. It's everyone else that's being put under the bad light, if they can't see what he's doing and why he's doing it, and especially if they don't forgive him.

[Scribbles]

I can't really understand the concern that Oliver did not include his team on the secret/plan.  Malcolm is a lying liar who lies, but he is also the one who knows the ways of the league and has things Oliver needs.  If Malcolm is caught enacting the plan, even if tortured for info, would Ras take on face value anything he said?  No one, even Ras trusts Malcolm.  On the other hand, if Oliver tells his team he risks them even further.  He is the weapon and he alone is in the position to accomplish the multiple goals:  protect family/friends, unravel Ras' mysteries/agenda, and so forth. 

 

We have asked all season why Ras would want Oliver, why wouldn't Oliver ask the same question?  What he needed was an opportunity to infiltrate, learn and to defeat Ras.  Malcolm is a useful alliance, the team is frankly a liability/risk in terms of inclusion.  As twisted as it is, Oliver's most noble choice is to protect those he cares for by not telling them.  Especially once he learns about the virus, the stakes are even higher.  As he noted, Tatsu told him he must be willing to sacrafice what he values most to defeat Ras.

 

Let's say he told the team, what would he tell them and when?  What would they do differently?  He is flying by the seat of his pants in a setting where he hasn't been able to anticipate what crazy Ras will want next (except to the extent Malcolm could provide info).  Malcolm has what Oliver needs and the team has made amply clear they will not trust him and resent Oliver working with him. 

 

It is disturbing to see someone not include their friends and partners, but sometimes it just isn't the better option.  He knows he risks their friendships, but he has to defeat Ras.

[Chaser]

For Oliver, talking to Diggle was more important than telling Felicity that he had a plan to get her out.  Any way I look at it, he was more worried about Diggle's reactions than Felicity's.

 

So what if they wake up and realize that they're not dead? It's still psychological abuse that Oliver is doing to them, especially to Felicity who he says he loves.

 

At this point, when Oliver keeps hurting Felicity and she keeps forgiving him and going back to him, it starts to look like an abusive relationship.

Yeah. Felicity thought she was sending Thea to Roy so they could have a happy ending together.

 

But the theme of s3 is that Thea Must Not Have Any Agency and so he leaves without telling much less consulting her.  Because it's so bad to be on the run from the police that he wants to her to out there getting hurt by fighting bad guys and running from the police like that.

The previous episode Oliver kidnapped Lyla so Yes I would say talking to Diggle was more important than talking to Felicity at the moment. And calling Felicity to the Love Shack before the wedding that shouldn't happen may be a tip off to Ra's that Oliver is playing.

 

I don't understand the second bolding. How does she keep coming back to Oliver and how does he keep abusing her? She has remained his friend this season but she has called him on his BS while dating another man. She hasn't been waiting about for scraps. He has tried to be the bigger man, failing on occasion, but trying. 

[apinknightmare]

For Oliver, talking to Diggle was more important than telling Felicity that he had a plan to get her out.  Any way I look at it, he was more worried about Diggle's reactions than Felicity's.

 

No, it was probably because he didn't want to single Felicity out and put suspicion on her by calling her into his chambers especially since he was, you know, betrothed to Ra's daughter.

 

 

So what if they wake up and realize that they're not dead? It's still psychological abuse that Oliver is doing to them, especially to Felicity who he says he loves.

 

Yeah, I disagree. What choice did he have exactly? He was pushing a line just telling Diggle what he did in a room he couldn't be 100% sure no one could hear him in. He sent Tatsu to help get them to NP, he put the plan in motion, he felt like he had to protect them. Maybe he thought Malcolm would betray him and didn't want to chance telling the whole group what was going on? Would it be better if he took a chance on getting found out and putting them all at risk? By keeping them in the dark, he had control of the situation,

knowing whatever he put in there was a fake and he had plans to get them out. 

The previous episode Oliver kidnapped Lyla so Yes I would say talking to Diggle was more important than talking to Felicity at the moment. And calling Felicity to the Love Shack before the wedding that shouldn't happen may be a tip off to Ra's that Oliver is playing.

 

Yeah, that would be THE WORST THING HE COULD DO. He took too big of a risk even calling Diggle in, but damn. He was right not to take Felicity aside. 

[TVHappy9463]

New Arrow drinking game, every time someone comes up with a plan and doesn't tell anyone else take a drink.  Not a favorite, but not bad. Some great moments.  I am totally on team Ray and can't wait for the spin off.  Felicity is the new CEO of Palmer, so she is the billionaire crime fighter. Since we know Oliver will be back and there will be a happy ending, the gang will be together next season, plus Thea fighting crime.  

I can't decide if Malcolm really betrayed Oliver or if it was all the plan. I hope Nyssa throws Raj off the plane next week.  

[Angel12d]

There a point at which the amount of psychological damage Oliver has done to Felicity can't be forgiven.  She's like a battered woman, always getting hurt, always going back for more.

 

 

I'm sorry but the battered woman/abusive relationship comparison is a step too far. Just no way. 

 

And I don't see her as 'always going back for more' when she's held her ground where Oliver's concerned for the majority of the season.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Angel12d

[olicityfan25]

I don't know if it's just me but, that love scene with Roy and Thea was awkward. Like no passion. The kisses up close looked like they couldn't open their mouths at all to actually kiss.

[Password]

I knew I wouldn't like that episode. I didn't.

The character beats were good, great even. But the plot is just so full of stupid I can't get myself excited about the finale.

In the end the wedding seemed like the least offensive thing to happen that episode. When it happened I just did not care. The writers are so subtle. As soon as Olyssa was declared (by the state of Nanda Parbat) married, it cut to Felicity dying. Sooooooooooo subtle writers.

Diggle and Felicity's final scene made me more emotional than Oliver and Felicity's not goodbye in ep 20.

Tbh,

when Barry saves them

I don't see how they stay mad at him. Forgive him, but don't trust him I understand because they're his partners. It would take a while, but their relationships frankly aren't destroyed.

After Oliver tells Felicity to trust him, and Digg too, them allows them to die it would shake anyone's trust. But TA is a little too wishy washy to take seriously.

Oooh and Ray was adorable. And useful. But erm...did a missile hit him and he didn't explode? Hand wave.

[BkWurm1]

That's exactly why he asked her to trust him. I'm not saying that it wasn't scary or horrible, but she did trust him and he's proving to her that she was right to do it. I really don't think it's a thing in this fictional universe. In real life I'd feel differently. 

 

I think in real life I could forgive but I'd want to be a thousand miles away from this person who would get me in a situation where this could happen...but Felicity has signed on for this life and once she knows the stakes, she will be IMO understanding.  Traumatized probably, but not blaming Oliver. 

IDK why but I just don't see how Oliver and Nyssa getting married will create angst for O/F. Maybe it's because I don't take it seriously enough, maybe it's because Nyssa/Oliver pretty much can't stand each other and the wedding is probably only valid in NP. I don't see them signing any marriage certificates so yeah, I don't see the marriage lasting. I literally don't care about the marriage enough to be affected by it :p Baby mama drama has more chance of creating angst for O/F next season than the O/N marriage.

 

As for Oliver's fakeout in the end, I think Diggle will stew over it for a while, Felicity will probably give him a hard time but forgive him in the end (and that doesn't make her a weak character, imo. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Greg Berlanti is going to write Felicity next episode), Laurel not so sure because she's pretty hot and cold regarding Oliver.

 

Was what Oliver did wrong? Yes. Is Oliver unforgivable? No. But I do hope that Oliver suffers the consequences of his actions and learns from his mistakes. As for Oliver coldly leaving them inside to 'die', I mean what do you guys expect? He's playing a part and he can't react or else everyone will know he's playing Ra's.

 

I wanted to punch Oliver after the episode, so I hope Oliver redeems himself (because unlike Malcolm, I feel like he can be redeemed). 

I do want someone to punch Oliver but then I want someone to hug him because doing what he did with the fake virus and knowing what they were thinking had to eat him alive.   Was what Oliver did wrong? If it is, there were no right things to do.  

 

As for him getting married to Nyssa who hates his guts and they were both forced into it and it's done by a secret organization of killers...yeah, I'm not feeling the angst here.   Why would Felicity get hung up on this?  I can't imagine at all how they could wring any more drama out of it.  It's awful if it continued according to Ra's' wishes but I don't think any of us believe that. 

 

The virus was not a last minute thing on Oliver's part...it was obviously fake, which means he had it for a purpose.  So why didn't he mention something to Digg when he spoke with him alone?  "Hey, I might have to make it seem like I'm killing you with that virus you all know about, but totes don't worry, it's fake.  It'll just make you pass out, and I'll send Barry (or whoever) to get you out of here."

 

Easy peasy, no massive PTSD, no AssholeOliver.

 

Forgiving someone for being kind of thoughtless is pretty different than forgiving someone for making you think you were actively dying while he walked away to get married.

 

The Virus being swapped could very well have been a last minute swap.  Or it could have been Oliver manipulating Ra's to use the fake virus on his friends instead of making sure he used it on the city.  There are too many holes to say he could have easily reassured them ahead of time.  

How long does it take to say sorry I was an asshole, I was totally faking, and btw, I have a vial of FAKE VIRUS I might have to toss at you, so don't panic.  He really should have led with that info.

Again assuming that was even an option at that moment to say. 

but when he can speak to someone, it's Diggle and she thinks she's going to die while he walks away.

 

Oliver is not going to do anything to bring more attention to Felicity.  He asked about everyone the moment he had Diggle alone, that was what was most important.  Plus, seeing her alone might have been too much for him to take and keep up this ruse.  (Plus would anyone for a second believe he was leaving them to die if he had a tender moment with Felicity?)

 

I can totally see both sides of the Diggle's overreacting debate. But while I can picture him quickly understanding and being okay with Oliver again, I also think his anger is justified and I'm not really unhappy with this direction. Here's the thing: Lyla was in real danger. Yes, she can handle herself, but you know, the Boomerang guy got a pretty good hit in earlier this season, and in the fight with the LoA, Oliver was also occupied (uh, fighting Dig), so he couldn't have really been sure Lyla was safe the whole time. She was fighting off two dudes at once. She was in danger. And Sara was alone in her crib for some amount of time, which is super duper scary for a new parent. Like, on a molecular level.

 

Oliver was doing his best to not put Lyla in danger and had the exchange gone without any fuss, there would have been no fighting.  Technically the team put her in danger trying to save Nyssa.  Now Diggle was ok with that so I think he should get over Lyla being kidnapped safely.   The Sara question is harder to answer.   Diggle is a father and Oliver is not.  Oliver made the calculation that Sara would be fine for a little while alone in the crib that she sleeps in alone all night long (if her parents are super lucky)  Oliver is going to see it as a safe enough place while Diggle is not going to be so dispassionate about putting her at even the slightest risk.  

 

They should after all the dust settles have a shouting match slash brawl where Digg gets in a few licks. Oliver apologizes and promises never to let Sara get in the middle of anything again and they should go back to being bros.  Sadly, we are probably not going to get that very quickly.  

 

I know it's mostly plot driven so Oliver not being brainwashed is a SUPRISE, I'm again willing to do a little fanwanking and move on.

 

I wanted to clarify.   Because I knew going in that this (and last week's) episode are messed up and OOC I just fanwanked and moved on but I am not happy about it nor should the writers and show runners get away with such shoddy writing.  I would rant about it but I'm just too worn out by all that has come before.  

[BunsenBurner]

KENYAJ, ON 06 MAY 2015 - 8:01 PM, SAID:
LoA weddings are conducted in English? Whatever. I want that hour of my life back.

I watched with closed captioning on.  During the wedding ceremony it said all of it was being said in Arabic.

[statsgirl]

Ra's told Nyssa that she didn't have any choice about marrying Al Sah-him any more than her mother had. Does that mean that he forced Nyssa's mother into his bed?

 

I still don't understand why Nyssa didn't hide the real virus in Starling City when she knew the League came after her last episode.

 

This season has been all about Oliver getting into trouble because he thinks he can handle things alone (e.g. protecting Merlyn, fighting Ra's) instead of remember the lessons he learned the previous two season.  And he's still doing it, now with the potential of getting his Team hurt.  Lampshading it by having Merlyn say "you're bad actors" doesn't make Oliver's decision any better.  If he thought that he didn't need his Team, why not tell Diggle and Felicity that he had a plan to get out?  Especially Felicity, who he knew would be hurt by what he was going to do.

 

 

In the end the wedding seemed like the least offensive thing to happen that episode. When it happened I just did not care. The writers are so subtle. As soon as Olyssa was declared (by the state of Nanda Parbat) married, it cut to Felicity dying. Sooooooooooo subtle writers.

Yeah. For all the upset about the wedding, it was like a nothing compared to what else Oliver was let happy.

 

Replying to Oliver's relationship with Felicity in the relationship thread.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl