S03.E22: This Is Your Sword

[slayer2]

Sometimes I think the some of the Flash's success is because people need the lighter, more positive vibe to counteract Arrow's darkness and depressing angst-a-thon this season. It would probably be even more successful if it aired the night after Arrow instead of before! ;)

 

I think we should go with the night swap and Felicity's suggestion at a Malcolm Merlyn drinking game. Scandal has its wine (god bless it) this show needs a liquor!

[twoods]

Holy hotness Roy! I am really going to miss him. Him and Thea were so cute, and their sexy times were scorching.

I am done with Dig and Felicity's wailing about bad Oliver. If he says to trust him, then do it! Lyla was kidnapped, not hurt or killed. Dig should have let Oliver explain his plan, but instead he threw a shit fit.

I am also over Felicity's constant quivering voice. She only doesn't act like that around Ray. Oliver marrying Nyssa isn't the end of the world- she knows Nyssa doesn't have any feelings for Oliver. I also don't know what to think about Malcolm double crossing Oliver- I hope he did it to get the fake virus death.

[arjumand]

Holy hotness Roy! I am really going to miss him. Him and Thea were so cute, and their sexy times were scorching.

I am done with Dig and Felicity's wailing about bad Oliver. If he says to trust him, then do it! Lyla was kidnapped, not hurt or killed. Dig should have let Oliver explain his plan, but instead he threw a shit fit.

I am also over Felicity's constant quivering voice. She only doesn't act like that around Ray. Oliver marrying Nyssa isn't the end of the world- she knows Nyssa doesn't have any feelings for Oliver. I also don't know what to think about Malcolm double crossing Oliver- I hope he did it to get the fake virus death.

 

The quivering voice, fuck that's annoying. So annoying. I mean, around Ray she kind of overdoes the quipping, but at least it doesn't sound like she's going to burst into tears any minute.

 

And yes about the marriage - does she imagine that any marriage is permanent? Especially one that will not be valid in any country on this earth, except for the tiny area of R'as al Ghul's palace?

 

I'm also starting to lean towards the Malcolm betrayal being yet another ruse so that Oliver has to pretend to kill all his friends to really convince R'as that he is really Al Sahim. The problem is that Oliver is having to think on his feet with R'as throwing new shit at him every five minutes. At the beginning it was just, "You will be the new R'as al Ghul and then you can do what you want with the league", and it sounded ok. Then we had the attempted brainwashing, "killing" Nyssa, wiping out Starling, marrying Nyssa  . . . it just went on and on. And it's a pity that Oliver walked into that trap, of the virus being on the plane, but he had the ticking clock to content with. I don't think R'as al Ghul bought Maseo as a traitor until Oliver showed his willingness to kill his friends.

 

But probably next episode we will have the requisite amount of whining by Diggle and co that he didn't immediately tell them the whole plan, in front of R'as al Ghul and his men. If I have to hear Felicity go "we trusted you!" one more time, I think I'm going to scream. Get mad, girl! Call him an asshole and a lying piece of shit, or the CW version of the same! Just enough with the weepiness.

[nksarmi]

I watched this again with the fiancé last night and a coupe of thoughts emerged....

 

First, I think this whole season Ras decided that the LoA initiation is to battle Team Arrow. If you live, you get to become a member.  If you end up lying on a beach with 30 of your other comrades and the real LoA looking down on you, well you weren't worthy.

 

Second, I would actually like to see a fight sequence like that again, but you know, with Oliver in it.  I mean, from Ray in the air to Tatsu and Masea and even Felicity and her tablet - it was all kind of cool. Laurel didn't even bother me like she does some of you.  I just would have liked the skilled combatant with a bow to have been Oliver instead of Malcolm.  I kind of can't wait to see him and Thea get into a mix up like this.

[tv echo]

MG clarifications and comments about this episode...

harleyqueen-smoak asked:
Hey, love the show!!! My question is what the hell was in Felicitys bag? Clothes? Weapons? A red pen to throw at Oliver... sorry ...I mean Al Sah-him?

You mean in 322?  It was to carry her tablet.

their-happy-story asked:
Forcing Oliver, a straight male who cares very little for the League's traditions, to marry Nyssa is extremely different from forcing Nyssa, the only queer character currently on the show who has been raised since birth to value to traditions and beliefs of the League, to marry Oliver. I hope you realize this.

I do.

olicityalamode asked:
Marc, you've got so many people pissed about the fact you married a lesbian to a male. I think these people are missing the point. The point is that the show isn't doing this in a romantic light. It only truly highlights Ra's' despicable nature. Additionally, the fact that you have so many people up in arms about this wedding, goes to show how many people watching Arrow support the LGBT community. The marriage itself is bad. But the way you portray it and how people are responding? FANTASTIC.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.  And, believe me, I’ve tried. Thank you.

becky43078 asked:
I won't scream at u for it like others but do u realize forcing a lesbian character to marry a male is disgusting and offensive? I believe that sends a bad message to lgbt youths. U see it as a story point but I see it as a social issue

I see it as a social issue as well.  That said, what message does it send to LGBT youths?  Because, to be honest, I think the only message it’s sending is “Be glad your father isn’t the head of a league made up of assassins.”

thefingerfuckingfemalefury asked:
Why did you INFLICT a marriage to some worthless male character on a lesbian character? (Nyssa al Ghul) There is no more utterly REPULSIVE and vile fate for a queer female character than being forced to be with some filthy male and you just did this to the ONLY lesbian character on the show. Why did this lesbophobic nonsense happen? Oliver is an animal for going along with this and rest assured if Nyssa stays with him or any other man or gets killed off I will never be watching this show again

The story required that SOMETHING bad happen to Nyssa.  Ra’s had targeted her for death.  But we love the character too much to kill her off.  So forcing her into a loveless marriage felt like the right plot development.  Oliver was similarly not given a choice.

Edited May 8, 2015 by tv echo

[arjumand]

Why did you INFLICT a marriage to some worthless male character on a lesbian character? (Nyssa al Ghul) There is no more utterly REPULSIVE and vile fate for a queer female character than being forced to be with some filthy male and you just did this to the ONLY lesbian character on the show. Why did this lesbophobic nonsense happen? Oliver is an animal for going along with this and rest assured if Nyssa stays with him or any other man or gets killed off I will never be watching this show again

 

 

Wow.

 

I don't get how difficult this is for people to understand - R'as al Ghul is evil. HE's going to force his lesbian daughter to marry a man because he's evil. This is like the Loki kerfuffle after The Avengers - when he called Natasha a "mewling quim" (which is Shakespearean or thereabouts for 'whiny c***') a huge section of the fandom was up in arms. Loki treats humans like insects and massacres them without hesitation, but misogyny? That's just too much, y'all.

 

Same goes for the show's R'as al Ghul. Many people seem to have missed his statement of her having as much of a choice as her mother had, i.e. he raped her mother, and now he's going to pawn his daughter off to be raped. There seems to be the general idea in fandom that villains can be evil, but it has to be a safe kind of evil, something which doesn't somehow affect our sense of self, or something? I don't know how to put it - I saw the same thing happen in Buffy when the villains Warren and co. started off as vaguely powerless nerds and ended up as rapists, and the fandom was like, oh hell no. I guess fandom feels they should be allowed to enjoy someone's villainy and they just can't when the villain is misogynistic. Or something.

 

To these people, I am sometimes tempted to share something I found out about Stalin, recently, from a poster on Jezebel who was writing a paper which mentioned the rapes committed by the Russian army after WW2. Basically, I always knew that Stalin was a horrendous human being who would have given many of the supervillains a run for their money, what I didn't know was that he was totes ok with all the raping. No, really, he is quoted as saying something like, after all the horrors the soldiers went through, why shouldn't they "take their pleasure" where they wanted? Ok, dude. And this, by the way, was a man with a daughter.

 

So, what exactly is unrealistic or somehow offensive that a fictional character does the same thing? I think some people were fooled by the fact that early on he seemed like such a calm and soft-spoken man, stern but fair. Now we're seeing the real thing. And blaming Oliver for going along with it - what else is he supposed to do? All Oliver is doing is trying to get R'as al Ghul off his fucking back with his endless hoops he expects Oliver to jump through until he can finally save his city.

[AnaRow]

KATANA was perfection. I knew Maseo was going to die and parallel Akio's death in flashbacks but I didn't expect her to kill him. It was a really poignant moment actually.

I did but only because I jumped the gun and Googled Maseo Yamashiro weeks ago. I hope they make Katana/Tatsu at least a recurring character. She's already more interesting than Laurel will ever be.

Here's hoping Sara's death has been a fake out all along.

NO! I almost quit watching last season because she somehow managed to be even more irritating than Laurel. If they want to bring anyone back, I'm good with Moira. Or Shado. Or Shado's twin. Or that last mayor they killed. Anyone but Sara.

[DrSpaceman10]

I would have preferred if Oliver had let Nyssa in on his plan to take down Ra's. Nyssa was arguably the person most affected by Oliver's decision. Oliver even let Malcolm in on it and is Malcolm really more trustworthy than Nyssa? Is Nyssa also too bad of an actress like Diggle and Felicity? If one person deserved to know about what Oliver was planning it was Nyssa. That's one of my biggest problems with this whole "plot twist".

[ohjoy]

I'm not convinced we won't find out that at some point during this episodes events Oliver did let Nyssa in on the plan. I mean, yes, she tried to knife him and he blocked it, but for all her "I would rather die than be subjected to this marriage" she didn't knife herself in the exchange. I think she is in on it.

 

Of course, the rest of my crack!theory is that once Malcolm got thrown back in the cell with TA+ he let them know about the fake gas and they all put on a histrionic show for Ra's so he would believe that Oliver was truly leaving them there to die. That way everybody's at least remotely in on the plan again. I can even pretend that Diggle and Felicity's last exchange was because they weren't sure if this plan was actually working or not -- because it was such a huge gamble and they have never actually seen the effects of the virus firsthand.

 

(But hey, at least the first part of my theory holds some water, right?)

[DrSpaceman10]

I hope you're right and we find out Nyssa was in on the plan the whole time. Katrina Law really sold the disgust at having to go through with it though, which made me think Nyssa wasn't in on it.

[Ang]

Of course, the rest of my crack!theory is that once Malcolm got thrown back in the cell with TA+ he let them know about the fake gas and they all put on a histrionic show for Ra's so he would believe that Oliver was truly leaving them there to die. That way everybody's at least remotely in on the plan again. I can even pretend that Diggle and Felicity's last exchange was because they weren't sure if this plan was actually working or not -- because it was such a huge gamble and they have never actually seen the effects of the virus firsthand.

I can't tell you how much I want this to be the case.

I find myself sympathizing with the anti-Felicity sentiments, sadly. The quaver bothers me, if I'm being honest, and the soapy dramatics have lacked personality. It's not that she can only be optimistic and quippy (frankly, I don't think that accurately describes the personality we've seen), it's that we saw years of her reacting to difficult situations with both relatable fear/moral qualms AND surprising frankness, realism, pragmatism, and a perspective that allowed for light and humor. I wanted that more than I wanted quips and out-of-place humor.

Thinking about the audience response to R'a's's' (I've completely lost track of proper apostrophe positioning here so I'm covering my bases) misogyny, and with the added perspective of the Buffy example and examining my own response, I think maybe the problem lies in the audience not having a strong enough representative/intermediary/moral voice on the show. If I see something truly reprehensible but close to the socially acceptable line, I need to see it called out in no uncertain terms, especially on a rather family friendly-ish show like this. The second I start thinking, "Oh, man, some idiot or too-young kid watching this is going to see it and think this is OK!" that's when my stomach twists and I start questioning things.

[apinknightmare]

I would have preferred if Oliver had let Nyssa in on his plan to take down Ra's. Nyssa was arguably the person most affected by Oliver's decision. Oliver even let Malcolm in on it and is Malcolm really more trustworthy than Nyssa?

 

At this point? Maybe, yeah. Nyssa hates Oliver. For all he knows she still has an allegiance to the League and is just pissed that her dad removed her as heir and would jump at the chance to show Ra's that Oliver was faking. I mean, yeah she's pissed at the wedding thing and seemingly hates the dude, but Oliver wouldn't know whether she hates him or Ra's more. Hell, Ra's seemed to put so much into Oliver because of the prophecy, she could tell on him just to get some satisfaction of having him offed. 

 

Not to say Ra's would believe her necessarily, but it seems like kind of a stupid risk to bring her in on the plan until he absolutely had to, if he ever had to at all. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she was in on it though, although I hope they show that conversation in a flashback.

Edited May 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[BkWurm1]

This episode was so  unrelentingly depressing, I went to bed last night and cried.

 

That's interesting.  Last week I came close to that reaction but I just found this week so much more hopeful.  They weren't sitting around moping and having their hearts ripped out with betrayal and disbelief.  This week they started there but quickly were given good news about Oliver followed by a chance to deliver a blow to Ra's, the real villain and yes they ended up in a trap and in a dungeon but all that was just trappings and drama and didn't affect me. 

 

I wasn't even moved by the Felicity and Diggle exchange.  I was too busy going, phew, they didn't give Felicity's last moments to Ray!  I guess being a complete TV cynic has it's uses since it saved me from buying into there even being a chance they were all going to die.  My sympathy honestly goes out to anyone who was with the characters thinking they were about to die.  That would take the shine off the show.   I still haven't forgiven Alias for it's time jump twist or Gilmore Girls for Lorielai for getting drunk with Christopher let alone Clark in Smallville for Failsday at the end of season eight.  It's hard when you feel like a show has betrayed your trust.   :(

 

Felicity and Diggle have good reason not to trust Oliver's judgement -- he's been making idiotic decisions all season because he's been making them by himself rather than talking it over with them.  Last season Slade was a genuinely scary villain because he crept in through the back and tried to take down Oliver and everything he loved. This season everything bad other than Sara's death has been a result of Oliver making bad decisions by himself.

 

I assume Oliver didn't know about the virus when he decided to go undercover. But he could have told Felicity or even just Diggle that he was going to try to get back to them.  They could still have gone through "the Oliver is brainwashed!" of the last episode thinking that he had failed to keep his identity, but it would have made them more open to the idea that he was trying to help when he asked them to trust him in this episode.

 

The problem is that the writing was going for maximum shock value instead of building up a coherent story.

 

Yeah.  My mistake was buying into this show's world.

 

Yes, the real reason is maximum shock value but as an in show reason, I feel like Oliver's choice to not spell out his plans to the team or Thea was because he didn't want to dangle hope when he had no plan whatsoever.   At the point when he stayed behind at Nanda Parbat we know he knew about the heir to the demon having to destroy where he came from but he still risked saving Thea.

 

When he did though, knowing Oliver, he did more in that moment than trade in his freedom, he had to think he would absolutely hell or high water find a way to save his city but he probably saw his life as his one failsafe.  If he was dead, there would be no reason to harm Starling.  At the very least, since he could never live with being the reason most of his city would be wiped out, he would die trying to save it.   

 

I fell this is the real reason why he didn't offer them any hope for his future.  He didn't count on having one.  Was that the right call to make?  Maybe, maybe not, but I think it sheds a different light on his choice not to tell them rather than it being a question of not trusting them. 

 

On a side note, it's interesting to remember that he really didn't say goodbye to any of them.   With Thea he said he was coming later.   Diggle started with "I don't know what to say" and Oliver went with "you will always be my brother."  And of course Felicity got the "Then let's not say goodbye."  Those open ended farewells were all he allowed himself. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I feel like Oliver's choice to not spell out his plans to the team or Thea was because he didn't want to dangle hope when he had no plan whatsoever.   At the point when he stayed behind at Nanda Parbat we know he knew about the heir to the demon having to destroy where he came from but he still risked saving Thea.

 

MG said on Tumblr that

Oliver would explain why he didn't let anyone in on his plan in the finale.

I'm really interested in his explanation. 

[arjumand]

I can't tell you how much I want this to be the case.

I find myself sympathizing with the anti-Felicity sentiments, sadly. The quaver bothers me, if I'm being honest, and the soapy dramatics have lacked personality. It's not that she can only be optimistic and quippy (frankly, I don't think that accurately describes the personality we've seen), it's that we saw years of her reacting to difficult situations with both relatable fear/moral qualms AND surprising frankness, realism, pragmatism, and a perspective that allowed for light and humor. I wanted that more than I wanted quips and out-of-place humor.

Thinking about the audience response to R'a's's' (I've completely lost track of proper apostrophe positioning here so I'm covering my bases) misogyny, and with the added perspective of the Buffy example and examining my own response, I think maybe the problem lies in the audience not having a strong enough representative/intermediary/moral voice on the show. If I see something truly reprehensible but close to the socially acceptable line, I need to see it called out in no uncertain terms, especially on a rather family friendly-ish show like this. The second I start thinking, "Oh, man, some idiot or too-young kid watching this is going to see it and think this is OK!" that's when my stomach twists and I start questioning things.

 

 

 

Re. Felicity - I get what you're saying and agree - even more so, I have this idea of badass Felicity in my head, and I'm starting to think that was only my extrapolation of her IT prowess rather than anything on the show. On the one hand, we have her winning against the Clock King and Cooper, as well as getting a very G-rated revenge on Ray after he kind of came out of nowhere and took Oliver's company out from under him. On the other hand, the weepiness.

 

As regards the audience moral voice - that actually never occurred to me. The message is obvious to me, as an adult, so I tend not to think in terms of a younger audience member not seeing the homophobia and misogyny in R'as al Ghul's actions.I'm hoping that the come-uppance he gets will underline this in no uncertain terms. If Oliver really kills him, when we know that he didn't kill the man who murdered his mom, that should make it pretty clear.

[AyChihuahua]

He should have told Diggle that he was at least working on a plan when he told/got info from Malcolm before Thea got spliced.  Diggle "keeps secrets for a living" and didn't tell his own wife that Barry was the Flash.  They didn't all have to know, but Diggle knowing would have been reasonable and safe and avoided a lot of later crap.

[BkWurm1]

MG said on Tumblr that

Oliver would explain why he didn't let anyone in on his plan in the finale.

I'm really interested in his explanation. 

Oh, it will be something annoying like, you'd all already risked so much, I didn't want to put you any more at risk.   The official non answer.  

[apinknightmare]

Oh, it will be something annoying like, you'd all already risked so much, I didn't want to put you any more at risk.   The official non answer.  

 

Haha, yes. Probably!

[paigow]

Seriously though, watch a baseball game. They use all kinds of signals for a million different things. Scratch my ear, rub my nose, put my hands in my pocket = steal second. You'd think one of them would have thought of something like that, but then we don't get all of these enthralling miscommunications compounded on each other for season after season. LOL

 

Oliver: Diggle! WTF? You killed Quentin??!!

Diggle: You grabbed your crotch....

Oliver: Kill signal is when I grab my crotch twice...

[dtissagirl]

He should have told Diggle that he was at least working on a plan when he told/got info from Malcolm before Thea got spliced.  Diggle "keeps secrets for a living" and didn't tell his own wife that Barry was the Flash.  They didn't all have to know, but Diggle knowing would have been reasonable and safe and avoided a lot of later crap.

But if he told Diggle, he would have also told the audience, and their SUPER SHOCKER CRAZIEST CLIFFHANGER EVER banked on the audience not knowing anything. In show reasons legit came second in this episode.

[apinknightmare]

But if he told Diggle, he would have also told the audience, and their SUPER SHOCKER CRAZIEST CLIFFHANGER EVER banked on the audience not knowing anything. In show reasons legit came second in this episode.

 

I think they didn't have Oliver tell Diggle more for future drama reasons than them trying to pull off a shocker. I mean, Oliver clearly showed that he cared about what was happening to the team when he had Diggle in his room, and they still tried to pull off Evil!Oliver leaving all his frands to die.

[Chaser]

Re. Felicity - I get what you're saying and agree - even more so, I have this idea of badass Felicity in my head, and I'm starting to think that was only my extrapolation of her IT prowess rather than anything on the show. On the one hand, we have her winning against the Clock King and Cooper, as well as getting a very G-rated revenge on Ray after he kind of came out of nowhere and took Oliver's company out from under him. On the other hand, the weepiness.

 

As regards the audience moral voice - that actually never occurred to me. The message is obvious to me, as an adult, so I tend not to think in terms of a younger audience member not seeing the homophobia and misogyny in R'as al Ghul's actions.I'm hoping that the come-uppance he gets will underline this in no uncertain terms. If Oliver really kills him, when we know that he didn't kill the man who murdered his mom, that should make it pretty clear.

I don't think its just in our heads. I think its one of the reasons I love the Felicity scenes with Malcolm. That to me that is totally Felicity; the Felicity of the past two seasons. Girl's got steel for spine. The threat, mixed with a touch of quip and full confidence in her skills.

 

The Felicity who got away from Deadbolt, who boasted about her tech skills in The Flash and to Ray, who hacked into databases from her workdesk to help her boys, who called Oliver out for working with the man who orchestrated Sara's death at the expense of even his own daughter

 

Felicity has been there this season. She has had some fantastic moments. Where they failed her was conforming her to Ray. Making her cling to him, making her vunerable to him. It wasn't Felicity and so much of her time this season was devoted to him.

[AyChihuahua]

But if he told Diggle, he would have also told the audience, and their SUPER SHOCKER CRAZIEST CLIFFHANGER EVER banked on the audience not knowing anything. In show reasons legit came second in this episode.

I totally see what you're saying, but they could have just had Diggle behave a little differently, a little more chill, and then shown Oliver telling him in a flashback.  I'd be fine with that.

Oliver: Diggle! WTF? You killed Quentin??!!

Diggle: You grabbed your crotch....

Oliver: Kill signal is when I grab my crotch twice...

I may have just fallen deeply in love with you.

 

Oh, I had a thought on my drive home that made me feel a tiny bit better about the poison/not-poison gas...Oliver was "killed," as in for real thought he was being murdered, by his friend Yao Fei, and he got over it.  It's not a perfect comparison, because Oliver barely knew Yao Fei at that point, but they were allies and quasi-friends, and Oliver forgave him and got over it pretty quickly.  I seriously doubt the writers were thinking of that, but it made me feel a little better, that Oliver could have an in-show reason to think they'd get past it. 

[catahoulamama]

Oliver: Diggle! WTF? You killed Quentin??!!

Diggle: You grabbed your crotch....

Oliver: Kill signal is when I grab my crotch twice...

ROFL!

Points off for killing Lance, but BRAVO!

[strikera0]

It pains me to say this because I really used to like Felicity, but I think I am over her character at this point. She is starting to remind me of Carrie Mathison in seasons 2 and 3 of Homeland or Maggie on The Walking Dead in that her motivation has seemingly become all about a man. Almost everything that comes out of her mouth these days is "Oliver this, Oliver that" and the constant Felicity/Olicity propping by supporting characters (even the DC villains) is giving me the rest. I can see how this may be fun to watch for shippers, but as someone who isn't into Olicity or any other Arrow ship, I find this type of characterization/writing completely unappealing. I really wish we could get the old Felicity back.

Edited May 8, 2015 by strikera0

[millennium]

The quivering voice, fuck that's annoying. So annoying. I mean, around Ray she kind of overdoes the quipping, but at least it doesn't sound like she's going to burst into tears any minute.

 

And yes about the marriage - does she imagine that any marriage is permanent? Especially one that will not be valid in any country on this earth, except for the tiny area of R'as al Ghul's palace?

 

I'm also starting to lean towards the Malcolm betrayal being yet another ruse so that Oliver has to pretend to kill all his friends to really convince R'as that he is really Al Sahim. The problem is that Oliver is having to think on his feet with R'as throwing new shit at him every five minutes. At the beginning it was just, "You will be the new R'as al Ghul and then you can do what you want with the league", and it sounded ok. Then we had the attempted brainwashing, "killing" Nyssa, wiping out Starling, marrying Nyssa  . . . it just went on and on. And it's a pity that Oliver walked into that trap, of the virus being on the plane, but he had the ticking clock to content with. I don't think R'as al Ghul bought Maseo as a traitor until Oliver showed his willingness to kill his friends.

 

But probably next episode we will have the requisite amount of whining by Diggle and co that he didn't immediately tell them the whole plan, in front of R'as al Ghul and his men. If I have to hear Felicity go "we trusted you!" one more time, I think I'm going to scream. Get mad, girl! Call him an asshole and a lying piece of shit, or the CW version of the same! Just enough with the weepiness.

 

From what I've seen so far, it seems the actress's repertoire is somewhat limited.

It pains me to say this because I really used to like Felicity, but I think I am over her character at this point. She is starting to remind me of Carrie Mathison in seasons 2 and 3 of Homeland or Maggie on The Walking Dead in that her motivation has seemingly become all about a man. Almost everything that comes out of her mouth these days is "Oliver this, Oliver that" and the constant Felicity/Olicity propping by supporting characters (even the DC villains) is giving me the rest. I can see how this may be fun to watch for shippers, but as someone who isn't into Olicity or any other Arrow ship, I find this type of characterization/writing completely unappealing. I really wish we could get the old Felicity back.

I agree.   I think the character was ruined the instant they turned her into a love interest.  

[millennium]

Wow.

 

I don't get how difficult this is for people to understand - R'as al Ghul is evil.

 

You know, he doesn't seem very evil.   That may be the problem.   I've been thinking about this, about how utterly ridiculous the League of Assassins seems in today's world.   We live in a world where an Arabic terrorist group called ISIS is rampaging through whole countries, their masked members beheading twenty and thirty prisoners at a time, setting others on fire while still alive, destroying ancient art and architecture that has stood for millennia, etc.

 

Then we've got the League of Assassins, another Arabic terrorist group who seem to be about nothing but flattering their fearless leader, who likes to dress in cast-offs from a Shakespeare in the Park production of King Lear.

 

Do a side-by-side of Jihadi John and Ra's Al Ghul.   Who seems more evil?   

 

And yet, this show asks us to believe that the (Bush) League of Assassins strikes terror in the hearts of all men who would dare utter their name, blah, blah, blah.

 

How is it that the League can be so allegedly badass yet attract no attention from the United States government.   So far, neither Oliver nor Team Arrow have detected or mentioned any sort of CIA interest in the League, no Pentagon interest, no Amanda Waller interest either.   And don't anyone tell me "that demonstrates how secretive they are."   Because I don't believe it.   When Felicity Smoak and Laurel Lance can stroll right up to their doorstep, that whole "secret society" baloney goes right out the window.   The lack of governmental acknowledgment of the League is absurd, especially when the League is in possession of a bio-weapon manufactured by the military.   They have a freaking jet parked outside, in plain view of satellites.   It all smacks of lazy writing.   This could have been remedied if the League were holding a CIA prisoner in their dungeon, or if Ra's executed a CIA prisoner, something like that.    At least it would show that the League is enough of a threat to be on the CIA's radar.   Instead, the League appears to be operating in a fantasy vacuum where the only thing its leader needs to worry about at the moment is throwing a nice wedding.   Evil?  Pfft.   Somebody call David Tutera.

[catahoulamama]

You know, he doesn't seem very evil.   That may be the problem.   I've been thinking about this, about how utterly ridiculous the League of Assassins seems in today's world.   We live in a world where an Arabic terrorist group called ISIS is rampaging through whole countries, their masked members beheading twenty and thirty prisoners at a time, setting others on fire while still alive, destroying ancient art and architecture that has stood for millennia, etc.

 

Then we've got the League of Assassins, another Arabic terrorist group who seem to be about nothing but flattering their fearless leader, who likes to dress in cast-offs from a Shakespeare in the Park production of King Lear.

 

Do a side-by-side of Jihadi John and Ra's Al Ghul.   Who seems more evil?   

 

And yet, this show asks us to believe that the (Bush) League of Assassins strikes terror in the hearts of all men who would dare utter their name, blah, blah, blah.

 

How is it that the League can be so allegedly badass yet attract no attention from the United States government.   So far, neither Oliver nor Team Arrow have detected or mentioned any sort of CIA interest in the League, no Pentagon interest, no Amanda Waller interest either.   And don't anyone tell me "that demonstrates how secretive they are."   Because I don't believe it.   When Felicity Smoak and Laurel Lance can stroll right up to their doorstep, that whole "secret society" baloney goes right out the window.   The lack of governmental acknowledgment of the League is absurd, especially when the League is in possession of a bio-weapon manufactured by the military.   They have a freaking jet parked outside, in plain view of satellites.   It all smacks of lazy writing.   This could have been remedied if the League were holding a CIA prisoner in their dungeon, or if Ra's executed a CIA prisoner, something like that.    At least it would show that the League is enough of a threat to be on the CIA's radar.   Instead, the League appears to be operating in a fantasy vacuum where the only thing its leader needs to worry about at the moment is throwing a nice wedding.   Evil?  Pfft.   Somebody call David Tutera.

Preach it. 

TBH, I think logical questioning isn't especially welcome with this show - this season especially. It's like they're going more for the "Whoa! Lookit the cool jet that Ra's dude has!" crowd with some of this stuff. 

Bush League indeed. LOL

[Angel12d]

Yeah, I know we're supposed to think that Ra's is evil but I look at the actor and I just go 'meh.' I don't see him as menacing as I should. He's more a misogynistic old bastard than anything else. I know he's done evil things but there's a total disconnect for me personally. I find his actions and presence annoying and I just want him gone already, whereas last year, I thought Slade was a great lingering threat and I wanted to know what he would do next. This guy is just, well, meh.

[statsgirl]

You know, he doesn't seem very evil.   That may be the problem.   I've been thinking about this, about how utterly ridiculous the League of Assassins seems in today's world.   We live in a world where an Arabic terrorist group called ISIS is rampaging through whole countries, their masked members beheading twenty and thirty prisoners at a time, setting others on fire while still alive, destroying ancient art and architecture that has stood for millennia, etc. 

That may be the reason though.  The shows producers and maybe the network is playing it safe at a time when misinformation and fear is rampant.  It may also explain why the head of the LoA looks like an aging Australian footballer rather than someone from India or the Middle East.

 

I could understand it if they made that decision although I think that they could still have made the LoA a legitimately scary secret organization. What I can't understand is why they wrote this LoA so all over the place, one moment with a code of honor not to kill innocents and the next wiping out an entire city by something that is only going to make the Heir who doesn't want the job even more resentful.  If they wanted their Ra's to be BSC, they should have written him so all along. And they should have hired someone who could convey that, the idea that years and years of using the Lazarus Pit had completely warped his mind. That would have been a better story than this forced marriage and his "I'm going to kill you just because you lost a practice sword fight with me" / "I'm not going to kill you even though you helped them try to escape."

[Menrva]

 What I can't understand is why they wrote this LoA so all over the place, one moment with a code of honor not to kill innocents and the next wiping out an entire city by something that is only going to make the Heir who doesn't want the job even more resentful.  If they wanted their Ra's to be BSC, they should have written him so all along. And they should have hired someone who could convey that, the idea that years and years of using the Lazarus Pit had completely warped his mind. That would have been a better story than this forced marriage and his "I'm going to kill you just because you lost a practice sword fight with me" / "I'm not going to kill you even though you helped them try to escape."

This is one of the main problems of not just the LoA, but of every character and storyline this season. There is no consistency. Even crazy people follow their own bizarre sort of logic and the writers seem to think well, the LoA is evil and that's all we have so say on the matter. So no one in S3, not Oliver, not Diggle or Felicity - no one - has acted in a way that makes any sense at all.

 

Oh, and by the way, while Felicity's constant crying is grating at times, I'll still take her over crazy Malcolm, imbecile Ra's or selfish, stupid Laurel ANY TIME. I see Felicity's sorrow as mirroring my own as I wonder what the fuck happened to a show I really used to love. It's not MY Arrow anymore. It's the BC and Atom hour with Oliver and friends.

[millennium]

I know I come off as cynical, but I truly did like this show the first two seasons.  

 

I think they made a big mistake killing off Moira Queen.   She helped to keep Oliver centered, not just in his frame of mind but physically.   While she lived, Oliver was a part of Starling City and Starling City was part of Oliver.   In a big sense, Starling City was an unofficial character in this show.

 

Then Moira was killed, and since then Starling City may as well be AnyCity, USA.   This season, Starling City has been little more than a bedroom community for the Arrow between commutes to Nanda Parbat.    Starling City is not a great concern for him these days.

 

Oliver Queen, you have failed this city.   Maybe you didn't mean to, but you did.

 

Slade Wilson was a wonderful counterpoint to Oliver, too, both as a friend and an enemy.   Give me a theme of camaraderie over shipping any day.   His absence is sorely felt this season.

[apinknightmare]

I think they made a big mistake killing off Moira Queen.   She helped to keep Oliver centered, not just in his frame of mind but physically.   While she lived, Oliver was a part of Starling City and Starling City was part of Oliver.   In a big sense, Starling City was an unofficial character in this show.

 

I don't think it's specifically Moira, although I do miss her a lot. I think part of what's wrong with this season is Oliver has nothing at all going on apart from his mission. The only thing Felicity's got going on outside of it is working with/dating Ray, but he has a mission of his own. Thea's tied up with Malcolm, who's tied in with Ra's, who is Oliver's new mission, and Diggle's got Lyla on occasion and for one episode, the Suicide Squad. Laurel's got her training and now she's in on the mission too. Quentin's chasing after Oliver. 

 

There's no home life for any of these people, there's nothing outside and unrelated to the big bads and crime fighting. I want to see parties and board meetings and galas and all the stuff we saw in the first two seasons that reminded us that these people are PEOPLE too. I really hope they get back to some of that. 

Edited May 9, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think it's specifically Moira, although I do miss her a lot. I think part of what's wrong with this season is Oliver has nothing at all going on apart from his mission. The only thing Felicity's got going on outside of it is working with/dating Ray, but he has a mission of his own. Thea's tied up with Malcolm, who's tied in with Ra's, who is Oliver's new mission, and Diggle's got Lyla on occasion and for one episode, the Suicide Squad. Laurel's got her training and now she's in on the mission too. Quentin's chasing after Oliver. 

 

There's no home life for any of these people, there's nothing outside and unrelated to the big bads and crime fighting. I want to see parties and board meetings and galas and all the stuff we saw in the first two seasons that reminded us that these people are PEOPLE too. I really hope they get back to some of that. 

 

Replying in the Bitterness thread.

[kismet]

I hope you're right and we find out Nyssa was in on the plan the whole time. Katrina Law really sold the disgust at having to go through with it though, which made me think Nyssa wasn't in on it.

Well I think even if she was in on the plan, the forced marriage/wedding is still absolutely disgusting in light of her character's sexuality - so I think it the disgust will come through either way. Just because you know about something, doesn't diminish how atrocious the thing actually is. 

 

The more I thought about the wedding, the more I began to understand that for Ras this marriage was the perfect way to break & further destroy both Nyssa & Oliver. He is evil and whole lot of other things, so in the end I have come to accept that this wedding is just further plotting by him. As a result, Im not angry with the show for putting it in. I am disappointed with them though, that they didn't find someway to have one person verbalize just how wrong it is. I know its not a socio-political show with messages like other shows, but it seems that MG/TPTB knew to a certain degree the fans disappointment in the marriage, esp. not addressing the wrongness. For plotting purposes, everything makes sense in the story, but how it comes off can be so wrong. Shows influence people whether they want to or not, I wish they would use their influence for good. Don't just say Ras is evil and that is why its ok to pursue this plot. Use the voice you are given as writers of the show and put at least one dissenting comment by one of the TA characters about how wrong it is to force Nyssa to marry a man. Laurel as Nyssa's new friend, would have been the perfect person to address it.

 

Its not the plot, as much as how MG/TPTB defend the plot, without addressing the valid concerns/complaints/comments fans have about some of the bigger issues or implications. They did similar things with Ray's behavior earlier in the season and I cringe to think what will come of this implied Rape of Nyssa's mother. If you're gonna dabble in hot-button topics, then you have to do more than just defend it as it makes sense for plot purposes or because a character is x. Otherwise, the show comes off as a little insensitive- when a quick line here or there may address the concerns & maintain both plot & social sensitivity.

[paigow]

Isn't the idea of forced marriage alone "disgusting" / "wrong"? It is particularly more heinous when one or both of the parties is a child. However, when 2 adults are involved, how relevant is sexual orientation? If Oliver and Nyssa are gay, would their marriage be more or less "disgusting"? If both of them were straight but they hated each other, would their marriage be more or less "disgusting"?

 

Well I think even if she was in on the plan, the forced marriage/wedding is still absolutely disgusting in light of her character's sexuality - so I think it the disgust will come through either way.

Significant historical inaccuracies aside, Braveheart had a similar plot thread... Evil father forces gay son to marry and impregnate (straight) French princess so that France will not interfere in the war against Scotland. Who is more sympathetic? Gay character? Straight character? Both are equally sympathetic?

[Angel12d]

I have a question that was bought up in jbuffyangel's review. When they were all in the cell, Felicity turned to Tatsu and said something like "You were right about Oliver. I should have listened to you." But what exactly does that mean? Because it's not really lining up with what Tatsu was talking about. Does it mean Felicity guessed that Oliver had a long game and that she was right to fight for him? Or something else? Was she definitely talking to Tatsu?! I'm confused.

[olicityfan25]

I see guggenheim's point about Ra's being evil that's why he wants to marry Nyssa to Oliver. But, Guggenheim also said "something bad had to happen to Nyssa." This is where he loses me. Something bad already happened to Nyssa with Sarw dying. This is all just to create angst. Quite annoying.

[olicityfan25]

They haven't lost me, but they really were testing me when they decided to give freakin Laurel her comic book name and yet what about Oliver? This is why I can't stand Laurel. Also where is her story going to go now? She has taking everything from everyone and apparently wants to do the salmon ladder next season. How ridiculous this character. I'd take a whole episode of Felicity crying than watch BC.

[arjumand]

I see guggenheim's point about Ra's being evil that's why he wants to marry Nyssa to Oliver. But, Guggenheim also said "something bad had to happen to Nyssa." This is where he loses me. Something bad already happened to Nyssa with Sarw dying. This is all just to create angst. Quite annoying.

 

I'm not trying to justify Guggenheim, because some of his decisions this season have been truly messed up - there was absolutely no reason to kill Sara off in that way. Sure, se wasn't fridged for a guy, she was fridged for an entire season. And I still don't get why Malcolm would do something like that to his own daughter who he apparently loves - I mean, if he didn't, why did they show John Barrowman lose it completely when Thea was in the hospital? The character of Malcolm makes no sense, and all because they had to have this so-called season defining moment.

 

But when he says "something bad had to happen to Nyssa", I'm interpreting it in another way - it had to be bad enough to spur her to kill her father. Now, we might still find out that Malcolm had Sara killed on R'as orders, and that he's been playing them all from the beginning. But if all went down as we thought, then Nyssa had no reason to really try to kill her father  - not that silly full-frontal attack, which was nothing more than a tantrum. No, a true, stabbing in the back, poison in the wine, or painted on the cup before you pour the wine in, or possibly even in those thousands of candles they have everywhere (Terry Pratchett reference) assassination. And no matter how dismissive he's been to her so far, he's never tried to destroy her soul like he's doing now, treating her with the contempt he apparently has for all women.

It certainly makes me see his encouraging Felicity to bang Oliver's brains out in a whole different light.

 

Or it could all be the usual - the only thing that is ever used in women's backstory as motivation is rape. At least so far it's only been threatened rape (Sara on that ship, Nyssa now) - do not go all the way, Guggenheim. Do not make me quit you.

[LisaM]

I liked parts of the episode - especially Tatsu fighting with her husband and Ray and his flying suit going after the plane. I hope that TPTB find a way to keep Tatsu as part of Team Arrow next season -- as well as Nyssa -- because they are both much more interesting characters than Laurel. Speaking of Laurel, I cracked up at Laurel fighting the heavily trained and vastly experienced fighters of the League of Assassins. The image which came to mind was a little kid stepping into the ring with Muhammad Ali. Ridiculous.

 

Eager to see which other characters have been in on Oliver's plan with the presumably fake virus.

[KirkB]

I'm starting to thing the League's rep is a leftover, no longer relevant one. Maybe they were a group of honorable warriors at some point in the past, but somewhere along the line they became more mercenary and never really looked back. The current League and their so-so leader don't seem so tough or scary because they're not, they're just thugs dressed up, but people who speak of them in fearful whispers do so because of what they used to be. No one realizes they aren't so bad anymore. They're playing on their history.

Edited May 10, 2015 by KirkB

[Chaser]

I'm starting to thing the League's rep is a leftover, no longer relevant one. Maybe they were a group of honorable warriors at some point in the past, but somewhere along the line they became more mercenary and never really looked back. The current League and their so-so leader don't seem so tough or scary because they're not, they're just thugs dressed up, but people who speak of them in fearful whispers do so because of what they used to be. No one realizes they aren't so bad anymore. They're playing on their history.

Smoke and mirrors. Ra's is more Oz.

[fantique]

I can't tell you how much I want this to be the case.

I find myself sympathizing with the anti-Felicity sentiments, sadly. The quaver bothers me, if I'm being honest, and the soapy dramatics have lacked personality. It's not that she can only be optimistic and quippy (frankly, I don't think that accurately describes the personality we've seen), it's that we saw years of her reacting to difficult situations with both relatable fear/moral qualms AND surprising frankness, realism, pragmatism, and a perspective that allowed for light and humor. I wanted that more than I wanted quips and out-of-place humor.

Thinking about the audience response to R'a's's' (I've completely lost track of proper apostrophe positioning here so I'm covering my bases) misogyny, and with the added perspective of the Buffy example and examining my own response, I think maybe the problem lies in the audience not having a strong enough representative/intermediary/moral voice on the show. If I see something truly reprehensible but close to the socially acceptable line, I need to see it called out in no uncertain terms, especially on a rather family friendly-ish show like this. The second I start thinking, "Oh, man, some idiot or too-young kid watching this is going to see it and think this is OK!" that's when my stomach twists and I start questioning things.

1) I whole heartedly get that sentiment and praying for them to wake the hell up.

2)Shouldn't the viewer have the moral maturity to judge what is morally acceptable or not on their own? Why does a character on the show need to do it?

3) If a kid/person watches this episode and walks away with forcing anyone into marriage is ok, Arrow's portrayal of Ra's is the least of theirs and their relations' problem.

I am sorry but that's a concept I have never understood when people bring it up in fiction. Ra's is presented as a bad and dangerous guy from the start. In the same episode he springs this atrocious wedding at them, he reveals he mass murdered the village he came from. How is anyone watching this and thinking "well, if Ra's does it, it must be right"? Also, it's clearly shown that Oliver is as bound by this as Nyssa is unless he wants everyone he knows dead. I do hope Nyssa is in on it because it sounds horrible but Oliver is also being forced here. Ra's threatens her with rape because he thinks Oliver is under his control and would do what he says even if it's that atrocious. The viewer is supposed to know better. Married in an unknown location that is not recognised by any government is not the same as a legally binding marriage. It also doesn't mean they will have sex, I certainly never considered that possibility. 

It's not a TV show (where meta humans can swing by, the hero's friend is a potential time traveller) that should teach morals. It's society and family units. I'm sorry but these types of arguments don't make sense to me. I can understand a work of fiction confirming or questioning pre-established beliefs and principles but teaching them? That's a parent's or guardian's or whoever's job. Art/Literature is supposed to open one's mind to possibilities previously not considered but saying that it should be teaching right from wrong is mind boggling to me. Parents and educator have no responsibility toward or impact on a child's moral development? That's the surest way for a society to go to shit IMO.

Edited May 10, 2015 by fantique

[kismet]

Isn't the idea of forced marriage alone "disgusting" / "wrong"? It is particularly more heinous when one or both of the parties is a child. However, when 2 adults are involved, how relevant is sexual orientation? If Oliver and Nyssa are gay, would their marriage be more or less "disgusting"? If both of them were straight but they hated each other, would their marriage be more or less "disgusting"?

Significant historical inaccuracies aside, Braveheart had a similar plot thread... Evil father forces gay son to marry and impregnate (straight) French princess so that France will not interfere in the war against Scotland. Who is more sympathetic? Gay character? Straight character? Both are equally sympathetic?

Agree with your points, forced marriage is wrong in general. Both parties are generally equally sympathetic. Nyssa more so in this one slightly because we don't know if she is in on the plan or not. Oliver is allowing himself to be forced into it for an ulterior purpose. But yes either way its wrong & disgusting.

Nyssa's sexuality only further helps to inform KL's acting choices, because in my mind even if she is in on a plan - her father forcing her to betray every part of herself would jack up my level of emotions & feelings even if I knew it was gonna serve a bigger plan.

[catahoulamama]

read the document.  said:

1- "Ray Palmer, CEO of Palmer Technologies Starling City, .....transfers the field of Palmer Technologies to Vice President Felicity Smoak.

2-  This business transfer agreement is made between Ray Palmer, CEO of Palmer Tech Industries and Felicity Smoak, vice president of Palmer Tech Industries, based in Starling City, USA.

Thanks.  I'm not one of those viewers to dissect still shots for details like that...just tend to wait for the show to make it clear (or not).

[Delphi]

I got something different from my viewing.

http://delphibyproxy.tumblr.com/post/118414583546/palmer-technologies-transfer-of-ownership-i-ray

[Ang]

1) I whole heartedly get that sentiment and praying for them to wake the hell up.

2)Shouldn't the viewer have the moral maturity to judge what is morally acceptable or not on their own? Why does a character on the show need to do it?

3) If a kid/person watches this episode and walks away with forcing anyone into marriage is ok, Arrow's portrayal of Ra's is the least of theirs and their relations' problem.

I am sorry but that's a concept I have never understood when people bring it up in fiction. Ra's is presented as a bad and dangerous guy from the start. In the same episode he springs this atrocious wedding at them, he reveals he mass murdered the village he came from. How is anyone watching this and thinking "well, if Ra's does it, it must be right"? Also, it's clearly shown that Oliver is as bound by this as Nyssa is unless he wants everyone he knows dead. I do hope Nyssa is in on it because it sounds horrible but Oliver is also being forced here. Ra's threatens her with rape because he thinks Oliver is under his control and would do what he says even if it's that atrocious. The viewer is supposed to know better. Married in an unknown location that is not recognised by any government is not the same as a legally binding marriage. It also doesn't mean they will have sex, I certainly never considered that possibility. 

It's not a TV show (where meta humans can swing by, the hero's friend is a potential time traveller) that should teach morals. It's society and family units. I'm sorry but these types of arguments don't make sense to me. I can understand a work of fiction confirming or questioning pre-established beliefs and principles but teaching them? That's a parent's or guardian's or whoever's job. Art/Literature is supposed to open one's mind to possibilities previously not considered but saying that it should be teaching right from wrong is mind boggling to me. Parents and educator have no responsibility toward or impact on a child's moral development? That's the surest way for a society to go to shit IMO.

Oh, I don't think TV shows are solely responsible for teaching morality or even that their role should be significant, but I do appreciate it when shows directed even partially at kids reinforce it. Especially as my own kids get older, I'm very aware of how difficult it can be to teach morality. In some developmental stages, kids really do have a hard time differentiating between TV/movies and reality. And it's not that they can't tell you that what they're seeing isn't real, it's that their brains respond as if  it is real. Combine that with the fact that they learn exponentially more from what they see others doing, and you can lecture them all you want, what they see represented on screen is going to skew their reality.

 

Even as adults, what we see presented as normal and common is going to affect the way we see the world. It's one of the reasons underrepresentation (of gender/race/body type/ability level etc.) is a big deal. Having someone on the show mention how wackadoodle something is can help reset "normal." With Oliver acting all brainwashed, Nyssa being so dang fiery, and the actual evil scariness of Ra's being, in my opinion at least, weakly demonstrated (this guy is far more annoying than terrifying) the actual wrongness of Ra's and his statements is more vague than I'm guessing the showmakers intended. Bear in mind too that this comes on the heels of Ra's encouraging Felicity to express her feelings to Oliver. Maybe that was supposed to be creepier than it came off, but between the actor's delivery and some of the fandom's response, it set a precedent for Ra's being capable of being a kind of reasonable guy.

 

And anyway, you're totally right - this all barely applies in this situation. In examining my own instinctive response in context of other concerns expressed online, I found myself wondering why I reacted the way I did instead of just thinking, "Ew! Ra's IS EVIL!!" the way I was probably supposed to. This was just my best guess.

[fantique]

Fair enough.

I guess I've always been extremely aware of the difference between real life and fiction. I don't remember a situation that was normalised for me through fiction. For example the portrayal of social structure in US High Schools: I never believed it was actually true until someone confirmed it for me. I always believed there were creative licenses being taken and until I came to the US for uni, I always laughed it off as a goofy hollywood thing. Actually, now that I think about it, even now, unless presented with the actual real life equivalent, any fictional situation stays firmly on the "yeah, that doesn't happen" section of my brain. So I think I just extrapolated from my own experience and that of my peers growing up that unless the situation we are presented with is a "realistic" situation, we simply don't carry any moral implications with us in the "real world". There is also the cultural factor of seeing things depicted in movies and TV that are mostly set somewhere I wasn't raised, so there was no parallel for me to apply to my real life. My family is from West Africa and I'm extremely aware of the very inaccurate and exaggerated depiction of how it truly is so I never relied on media to gain true information about somewhere. For example I watch a lot of Japanese dramas but unless my friend confirms it for me, I don't generalise any depiction of "everyday life" because I assume that dramatisation takes precedence over realism/accuracy. Although I will say, and I don't know if it's because I've only been really watching TV for the past 4 years but it seems like there is this need in entertainment to make things "real" lately. Like comics stuff gets more "gritty" and "realistic", even fantasy is considered better when being more surrealist than completely fantastical so the kids growing up today are probably watching/reading very different stuff from what I watched/reading. Also, I always forget that kids watch Arrow, that is so weird to me and when I see them at conventions, I'm like "what is this kid doing here?" I can see kids watching the Flash but Arrow? I am always taken aback. With that in mind, I get what you are saying better, there just needs to be assurance that the show is clearly saying "this is bad".

Sorry, I just sometimes get annoyed when people criticise a storyline because something immoral is being portrayed at all, especially by a character established as bad like we are all pod people with discernment. I also had just had a ridiculous conversation that went from appraisal of Jennifer Lawrence's acting (that person doesn't' like her face) to what kind of role model she is and my answer was that well...unless they are striving to become an accomplished actress, I really think young women should learn about healthy behaviours from people who, you know, actually know they exist and they are exposed to frequently, not someone they see in a movie and then at the oscars.

 

 

And anyway, you're totally right - this all barely applies in this situation. In examining my own instinctive response in context of other concerns expressed online, I found myself wondering why I reacted the way I did instead of just thinking, "Ew! Ra's IS EVIL!!" the way I was probably supposed to. This was just my best guess.

 

Actually I think that you reacted like most people because it seems like many bought Ra's BS before he went total creeptser. I think the show did that so we didn't feel completely disgusted by Oliver joining the league. Yes, it was seen as a sad thing and him sacrificing his freedom, but it seems like most of the audience didn't believe that he might have to compromise his beliefs and principles. I think the show was going with Felicity's sentiment: we knew he was giving his life away but not his soul. It definitely played as "WTF? What's happening here?" when Ra's let his crazy out.

Now, my reaction even during 3x20 was I DON'T TRUST HIM!!!!!! I still don't think that story he told was true and I was super uncomfortable with him telling Felicity "go kiss your boo goodbye". I was also perplexed when seeing online reviews talking about how they humanised him, and now I realise that people took some of his actions as him being reasonable and "honourable" when I didn't. It seemed obvious to me that all his waxing poetics about the League was just to rope Oliver in. All you need to know about how the League really works is reflected in Nyssa's behaviour, murder and collateral damage is whatever to her, she doesn't act like she's on some sacred mission to rid the world of evil. Neither did Maseo, actually. His only thing was "Ra's wants it so he will get it. Period"

 

I have a theory;

It starts with Nyssa, the about face from "I don't care that Sara's dead" to "You killed my daughter's beloved" and then suddenly, he goes after someone who turns out to be his choice for heir to supposedly avenge Sara's murder. He didn't like that Nyssa kept being upset even after he showed disdain and disinterest towards Sara's death.

I wouldn't be surprised if the whole plan was more about trapping Nyssa than it was about Oliver. He's a sociopath with some kind of god complex and he was losing control of his daughter to some random girl who was filling her head with ideas of love and normalcy (imagine him saying those words in the same tone he used when telling Nyssa she has no choice). Then he figures out that he doesn't think she has the right mindset to be the new Ra's anymore and ooh, here comes the shiny new toy, Oliver, who has no life, spends his time dedicated to his mission. He learns more about Oliver and boom: new plan. He had Oliver figured out, self-sacrificial, strong desire to do good in the world and holding on tightly to his moral code. So he attacked everything Oliver holds dear and then made the League a more appealing choice because it saves the people and city Oliver loves and he continues on his righteous path. 

Think about it, as soon as he was sure he had Oliver in his pocket (his speech before the branding doesn't count, at that point he is still trying to get Oliver mentally open to indoctrination, so it starts in 3x21), no more talks about honour or justice. And wasn't their deal that SC and Oliver's people would be safe? And yet, what is the first mission? Get Nyssa back from SC and of course, his friends would be with her. What does he need to be the new Ra's? Only kill every one he ever knew even though that breaks the condition under which he was offered to be Ra's. Suddenly it was "kill XYZ", you will do what I say regardless of what you want, I have all the power. This creepy rape-y Ra's? That's who he was all along but he knew that to ensnare Oliver, there needed to be a veneer of honour. Did you see how manipulated her into relaxing by talking about her mother? He acted calm and nice (like when giving his sob story to Felicity) and then BAM, he is telling her to learn her place. I still think he had Malcolm kill Sara and I think he wanted to eradicate SC to make sure that Nyssa has nothing tying her to Sara anymore. The closest thing she will ever have is his carefully positioned Al Sah-him puppet, both of them lost with nowhere to go, and no one to go to. Of course it didn't all go as he planned because he doesn't understand how strong both Nyssa and Oliver's connections to their loved ones are and now he's overplayed his hand for the first time. I desperately want Nyssa to kill him.

 

I would love it if that was the writers' plan all along. There is certainly all the build up for it and all the nonsense would become much more clear. But I'm not holding my hopes up. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

 

 

Actually I think that you reacted like most people because it seems like many bought Ra's BS before he went total creeptser. I think the show did that so we didn't feel completely disgusted by Oliver joining the league. Yes, it was seen as a sad thing and him sacrificing his freedom, but it seems like most of the audience didn't believe that he might have to compromise his beliefs and principles. I think the show was going with Felicity's sentiment: we knew he was giving his life away but not his soul. It definitely played as "WTF? What's happening here?" when Ra's let his crazy out.

Now, my reaction even during 3x20 was I DON'T TRUST HIM!!!!!!

Did a large portion of the audience really think Ra's was kind of okay at that point, when he had JUST stabbed the hero's little sister through the chest, for no reason except to make Oliver join him?