Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015)

[Dandesun]

What is he even talking about? An off the cuff stupid joke I can forgive but I don't even know what he's talking about here?

 

Which four of six Avengers has Natasha allegedly slept with? Are we talking COMIC!Natasha? Because... I don't think that's accurate, either. Comic!Natasha has had many different love interests over her decades long existence so that's hardly slutty behavior. No more so than anyone else and far less so than others.

 

In the movies... Natasha's sexual exploits have involved kissing Steve in order to cover the escape and... hitting on Bruce and then kissing him.

 

WHORE! [/i don't actually have to put in the sarcasm tag, do I?]

 

What... honestly... what the hell is he even talking about?!

[stealinghome]

Renner's just a tool. Even his "apology" for the first comment was way more "STOP PICKING ON ME YOU GUYS" than it was a true apology.

[thuganomics85]

Finally saw it.  Overall, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't my favorite Marvel film.  I'll probably put it in fourth, while the first Avengers, Winter Solider, and Guardians of the Galaxy battle it out for first (my mind keeps changing.)

 

It was great seeing the gang again, and I continue to love all their interactions.  The bromance between Tony/Bruce, the Tony/Steve competition, Natasha/Clive, etc. They really do feel like a team now, who can bicker a lot, but when the shit hits the fan, they get it together and save the day.

 

If I had a big complaint, it would be that there were too many characters, and I felt like some kind of got shafted.  Goes with the territory, I guess, but I would have preferred more Thor and less Clive.  Hawkeye is fine when he's shooting his arrows and bantering with Natasha, but I can't say his family life is on top of my must see list.  But, it sounds like that was all a set-up for his retirement, which works.  Especially since, judging from those articles, Jeremey Renner is starting to show that he's kind of a sexist dick.  If I didn't know any better, I'd think he was jealous that Black Widow/Scarlett Johansson is more popular then he is.

 

I also didn't think the laughs were as big.  Granted, it is hard to top the moment when Hulk beat the shit out of Loki in the first film, so maybe my expectations were way too high.  Still, I enjoyed the team giving Steve crap for his "language!" bit, Pietro's "old man" crack to Clive, and Tony being Tony.

 

The Bruce/Natasha did throw me a bit.  Mark Ruffalo and Scarlett did have good chemistry (even though, in typical Hollywood fashion, he's almost fifteen years older then her), but it kind of felt like I missed a whole bunch of stuff off-screen.  I don't remember much of an attraction going on in the first one.  And there all that stuff going on between her and Steve in The Winter Solider, but I guess as he said, they were just flirting, while her stuff with Bruce was much more then that.  Eh, I wasn't a fan of it, but I do think this criticism is overblown.  I really don't think it took away from her agenda.  I can understand the complaints about her getting kidnapped by Ultron a little more (if there is only one woman on the team and she gets kidnapped, that is getting a bit close to getting into the damsel trope), but I feel like some are complaining just to complain.

 

That said, while I like Scarlett for the most part, there are a few times where she goes a bit overboard with the raspy, seductive voice.  She starts sounding like a femme fatale from an old black and white film.  Maybe that's on purpose, but it takes me out of the moment for a bit.

 

Loved, loved Wanda/Scarlett Witch.  Elizabeth Olsen was perfect in the role, and I can't wait to see her in future films.  Aaron Taylor-Johnson didn't have as much to do, but still had some good lines and built the character up enough that I felt for his "death.'

 

No surprise: James Spader was awesome as Ultron.  His main goal at the end tended to follow the typical Marvel villain path, but I did like that his creation was due to a Tony that was effected by Wanda's mind-meddling.  Made the battle more personal.

 

The entire cast was good, but I still think the Chris' are unsung highlights.  Chris Evans really takes a character that could be really dull (especially opposite of the more bombastic Tony), and make him easy to root for and find just as compelling.  And Chris Hemsworth continues to bring humanity to a character that can be extremely arrogant and vain and, well, a God.

 

Really looking forward to the Civil War, although I wonder if it's really going to be a competition, because right now, I'm fully aboard Team Steve.

Edited May 7, 2015 by thuganomics85

[JessePinkman]

Where's that Tyra Banks "we were all rooting for you" gif when you need it.

 

I don't think anyone was rooting for his ugly ass.

 

Ugh, why DIDN'T Hawkeye die? After Renner bitched and moaned about not having enough to do in the first Avengers I'm surprised Marvel rewarded him with more story. He's not worth all this fuss.

 

And Natasha isn't a whore or a slut. It's like a woman can't even be AROUND men in any capacity without being called derogatory names. It's disgusting. 

[Actionmage]

We saw only the first moments of that journey as Clint reached safety and keeled over, exhausted.

 

The ways folks have seen death cheated in Marvel's TV and movie properties, I never thought for a second Pietro was most sincerely dead. He's flippin' Pietro Maximoff. I kept expecting the final credits scene was Cap finishing the Avengers cry as Quicksilver zoomed up, all cocky and not being late.

 

I am a lucky gal in that I loved Evan Peters' kitchen scene with the X fam, but Aaron Taylor-Johnson won me over to a character I've had no time for, for decades.  As much as everyone teasing Cap about language was fun, I really liked seeing Clint and Pietro have their "You didn't see that coming?" line toss.  I also liked Clint's Big Damn Hero speech to Wanda and then him going and being the Big Damn Hero he is.

 

As another poster ( ironically Mr. Glass) noted, it was a neat humanizing  moment with Maria pulling glass out of her foot. It merely slowed her roll for a few minutes, but Ms. Hill is awesome like that.

 

I enjoyed that at the party, you could tell who Cap's guests were. Yeah, they were older and less glamorous than lots of the usual hangers-on, but they all were telling tales and even Thor liked hanging out with them.  I was disappointed that Rhodey was made to look dumb. Not because of comics; there's always one or two characters who get the short end of the stick and in comic ways. The silliness with the party story was okay, but to have Rhodey seem nonplused because  someone helped him destroy dangerous robots and keep friends and civilians safe seemed out-of-character, at least to me.

 

"Don't take from my pile."   lol

 

I enjoyed this movie so much, regardless of my nitpicking. I'm sure there may be things I may get hung up on once I think about them, but it's a fun ride. It's what I was hoping for--to see a moving comic book with heroes I could root for and sympathize with as things go boom now and then. 

 

Now to wait for Ant-Man and what that movie brings to the Marvel table!

[Shannon L.]

 

Personally, I don't feel like this movie weakened her, made her lesser than, changed her or any such thing. I think she is more fully realized than many might believe... fully realized in that she has the agency to feel any emotion she wants. Natasha is a strong and powerful woman. But she's also a human being and they are, by their nature, contradictory. She is damaged... anyone coming up through the Red Room would be and it has little do with whether or not she can bear a child. It has to do with everything else she went through there. She's been through a thousand hells... in my mind, she has more than earned the right to find someone she admires and loves and want to run away with them. I wouldn't blame her for it.

This--especially the bold parts.  Knowing that she has some feelings about what was done to her and how it affected her life made me like her even more.  This is what's impressing me about the continuation of these movies--what could have been silly fun (and in many aspects, it is), has been given much more depth than you'd expect by delving into the emotion of all of these characters--what drives them, what scares them, what makes them angry and sad, etc....No wonder the franchise has been so successful. The writers are making us care about them and the actors are knocking it out of the ball park.  Is it Oscar material?  No, but it's much more than mindless entertainment.  IMHO  :)

[VCRTracking]

 

What is he even talking about? An off the cuff stupid joke I can forgive but I don't even know what he's talking about here?

 

Which four of six Avengers has Natasha allegedly slept with? Are we talking COMIC!Natasha? Because... I don't think that's accurate, either. Comic!Natasha has had many different love interests over her decades long existence so that's hardly slutty behavior. No more so than anyone else and far less so than others.

 

In the movies... Natasha's sexual exploits have involved kissing Steve in order to cover the escape and... hitting on Bruce and then kissing him.

 

WHORE! [/i don't actually have to put in the sarcasm tag, do I?]

 

What... honestly... what the hell is he even talking about?!

It all started when he was being an interviewed along with Chris Evans in the UK and the interviewer said it's rumored that Black Widow is involved with both Captain America and Hawkeye in the movies. It was the interviewer who had no clue what he was talking about  because obviously she doesn't. If she had been and they called her a slut then I'd be offended but they both know she's not with either of them, so it was a joke. A dumb one, but just a joke.

 

Then Conan had to bring it up again last night. I was watching "Damn I was hoping this was going to pass! His bit on Jimmy Fallon was hilarious."  I definitely don't think he was referring to comic book Natasha because I doubt he even read the comics. His attitude was that Black Widow is a fictional character so who cares? I don't think he would have talked that way about Scarlett herself. 

Anyway I liked Hawkeye in the movie. I liked Quicksilver too but I think killing him was a way of punishing Wanda, who was a villain who really messed up the team up to that point. I don't think I would have bought that all was forgiven with her without it. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by VCRTracking

[MisterGlass]

 

Ruffalo's response: Funny, I thought it was Bruce who was the love interest in need of saving.

Nice, and yep.

 

 

...since they went there with making Ultron his Frankenstein monster only to have it all wiped away in the end rather than have him add that failure to his legacy smacks of trying to keep Tony clean when in comics Hank was still villified for his creation of Ultron decades later.

On the evening's Agents of Shield

a character commented on Tony Stark's culpability regarding Ultron, and how Tony'd been allowed to go unchecked. I'm not sure if this is the only comment we'll see, or the beginning of something.

  His actions ought to have some sort of repurcussion.  Perhaps a shift in public opinion regarding him and his maverick ways.

 

ETA: 

ironically Mr. Glass

:-)

Edited May 6, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Glory]

Great article on io9 on why the Black Widow storyline upset so many people: 

 

http://io9.com/black-widow-this-is-why-we-can-t-have-nice-things-1702333037

[frenchtoast]

I see their point, but I think they're lacking context. Bruce and Natasha were surrounded by an idyllic family (that Clint had hidden) and they were responding, emotionally, to something they could never, ever have. They've done terrible things and no matter what they do, they don't think they can ever find that oasis that Clint has. That's a big loss, and they were sharing it. And, personally, I don't see why it somehow weakens her character to say she wants children. Now that she's more of an adult, and has formed relationships with her fellow Avengers, most especially Clint, I don't see how it makes her less of a feminist to say, I am feeling that loss. Is she only allowed to be a super hero by not having desires that are pretty normal? That's a tough sell. Which isn't to say her only worth comes from birthin' babies and the movies have never shown that. I just think condemning her for wanting children is kind of taking away her chance to be a fully formed person.

 

On the flip side, I am really angry at the marketing. Seriously, we'd like all of the Avengers, including Natasha. I'd like to see merchandise that my daughter can purchase in her section--and not just Black Widow stuff. Cap and Iron Man and Thor stuff, too. She doesn't want Elsa stuff, she wants Iron Man stuff. They're losing money, because parents are willing to pay for it. When we can find it. Heck, she really wants Groot stuff and we can't find that in her area. It comes down to buying it in the boy section which is stupid.

[JessePinkman]

I didn't take the sterilization reveal to be the "red in her ledger" because...that doesn't make any sense? The phrase, to me, implies that she was forced to do some horrific things while in the KGB, horrific things that SHIELD knows about and excused when she became an agent. But maybe not? I guess I'll never understand the obsession with the red in her ledger or whatever Budapest was, I never expected explanations for those things.

 

A small complaint I have is that the movie didn't do enough to setup the storylines for the rest of the movies. I know Whedon said he wanted to make this a complete movie, able to stand on it's own but...it can't. I wanted more to establish Civil War and Infinity War, I think what I really wanted was a cliffhanger. Just something to get me hyped for the next Marvel movie. It could have been anything really. Even a glimpse of Chad Bozeman as T'Challa would have made my day.

 

On the flip side, I am really angry at the marketing. Seriously, we'd like all of the Avengers, including Natasha. I'd like to see merchandise that my daughter can purchase in her section--and not just Black Widow stuff. Cap and Iron Man and Thor stuff, too. She doesn't want Elsa stuff, she wants Iron Man stuff. They're losing money, because parents are willing to pay for it. When we can find it. Heck, she really wants Groot stuff and we can't find that in her area. It comes down to buying it in the boy section which is stupid.

 

Why can't you buy the toys from the boys section?

Edited May 6, 2015 by JessePinkman

[blueray]

I agree with what that articles says about how nobody talks about Tony's "slutiness" which was shown on screen. As far as I know she has only flirted with two of her co-workers, both were single fyi, that doesn't make sluty at all. I don't get how anyone could even think that. And there really should be toys of her too. I wish they would wake up and realize nearly half of comic book fans (especially the movies) are girls.

[frenchtoast]

A small complaint I have is that the movie didn't do enough to setup the storylines for the rest of the movies. I know Whedon said he wanted to make this a complete movie, able to stand on it's own but...it can't. I wanted more to establish Civil War and Infinity War, I think what I really wanted was a cliffhanger. Just something to get me hyped for the next Marvel movie. It could have been anything really. Even a glimpse of Chad Bozeman as T'Challa would have made my day.

 

 

Why can't you buy the toys from the boys section?

I mean clothing. It also goes for women's clothing, too. I shouldn't have to look and search when it's out in front so much for guys.

[JessePinkman]

I mean clothing. It also goes for women's clothing, too. I shouldn't have to look and search when it's out in front so much for guys.

 

Ah, gotcha, I was confused, I was thinking "Girls can play with any toys they want! Do they have to be pink?? How dare you!". But yeah, even though half of the audience is female they're still so ignored. Marvel should know better by now. You'd think they'd fix these things if only to avoid the bad publicity it always, without fail, generates.

[lion10]

Great article on io9 on why the Black Widow storyline upset so many people:

http://io9.com/black-widow-this-is-why-we-can-t-have-nice-things-1702333037

It's weird to me that people got offended at the sterilization line. First and foremost, Natasha only revealed she was sterilized because Bruce said that he couldn't give her a normal life or a family and she was saying "me either". It was never brought up before or again or used as a plot point. And she said that her time in the Red Room made her a monster, not her sterilization. That was communicated through her flashback of having to kill a hooded prisoner. And finally, she was sterilized against her will. Maybe she would have never wanted kids but to have such a huge choice taken away from her, from anyone man or woman would be severely traumatic.

And on a thematic level, part of what makes Natasha interesting is the fact that she's an enigma and most of her past is unknown.

Interesting why Disney doesn't make Black Widow action figures. They've already got girls, now they're trying to corner the market on boys.

Edited May 6, 2015 by lion10

[Bruinsfan]

Wow, it's a good thing twitter didn't exist when Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Angel first aired! He would have gotten waaaay more hate.

Trust me, Joss has seen far worse than Twitter can throw at him. Back when Tara died on Buffy, lunatic "fans" from the Kitten Board were sending him death threats. I think he deleted his online presence because he's completely burned out from making the movies and dealing with studio restrictions, and is no longer contractually obligated to promote the MCU, not because some tween girls are being mean to him.

[KatWay]

 

As far as I know she has only flirted with two of her co-workers, both were single fyi, that doesn't make sluty at all.

And her very tame flirting with Steve was more about riling him up than having any intentions to pursue him. Not to mention she tried to set him up with women. So she had a romantic subplot with one (1) guy, I seriously fail to see how that makes anybody slutty.

 

In the comics, everybody has dated everybody, so they're all sluts really.

 

I'm really completely and totally fine with the Bruce/Natasha thing. If they ever try to do a love triangle, then I'll send them some very angry letters.

[Dandesun]

I've been having debates about the sterilization/red ledger/monster storyline with Natasha. I honestly do wonder if those that came away from the movie honestly believing that Natasha claimed she was a monster because she couldn't have children were the ones who were told that they were less than complete if they didn't marry and have kids... because I know some of these ladies and they were absolutely taught that by parents or relatives or whatever. Some of them have forged their own path that does not involved the marriage/family angle but if they were raised to think that's what they were meant for I imagine those wounds remain and that's what they hone in on.

 

I didn't walk away with that at all. The flashback/dream was all about the training in the Red Room. The paper target turning into a bound and hooded man... the commentary "You're going to break them." "Only the ones who are breakable." None of that was about Natasha's uterus. It was about what they turned her into at such a young age. And I agree that her saying she couldn't have children was in response to Bruce's claim that he couldn't give her that in the first place. Somewhat presumptuous of Bruce, wasn't it? To think that Natasha just wanted to run off and settle down and have kids. Granted, they had all (save Nat) just discovered that Hawkeye DID have that life secreted away. And, to be fair, Bruce strikes me as the sort of man who would very much want that settled life with home and family. The thing is, in a way, the fact that he can't and Natasha's life as well, kind of makes her the perfect partner for him given what he actually is. Is there anyone better at hiding and starting anew than Widow? (Bucky might be better at hiding at this point but he's really not on the table for Bruce.)

 

But, ultimately, she did make a choice. She chose the mission over Bruce which harkens back to why they had her sterilized in the first place. The Red Room didn't want their agents to get 'distracted' or to care about anything more than the mission. Natasha, however, is far more complex than that. Also, they're at Clint's farm with his family, she just had her memories of the Red Room manipulated to the point where they were over-whelming her... it's entirely fair for Natasha to be allowed her vulnerability... to mourn what was taken from her, to lament that loss even for a brief moment. That doesn't negate her strength at all. It hones it because she goes through it and still continues to fight.

 

Now the marketing angle? That pisses me off and has for a long time. Everytime I go to Disneyland I register a complaint about the lack of superhero/Star Wars merchandise for women/girls. And I go there a lot. I will purchase such merchandise that I like (there is literally nothing to choose from for women in the Marvel area... there's slightly more for Star Wars) but I now get my merch from outside sources like Redbubble, We Love Fine, or Her Universe. I got a new Leia and an Agent Carter shirt the other day. I will be getting Black Widow and Captain Marvel very soon. And I will wear them at Disneyland and I will tell anyone who asks where I got them. A lot of the lower tiers at Disney are all for merchandising Marvel/Star Wars to girls and women... it's the upper tier that's harder to get to. And if the CEO doesn't want to (he doesn't) that's not likely to change.

 

So that means someone else gets my merchandising money.

[SophiaD]

I think that the core problem with AoU is that since we only have one major female superhero, she gets to stand in for ALL women.  Plenty of women don't want children and are relieved not to have them, so, for that to be her sole, shattering backstory feels like a betrayal.  Now, if we had a female version of Hawkeye, who lived most of her life in a crater with her family safely tucked away and a nurturing co-parent to take care of them while she was out saving the world; AND we had a badass woman who never wanted kids, and a different type of character who just wasn't sure, I think the reaction would be very different.  The men in the audience have all of these other characters with whom they can identify, but we have only one.

 

Added to which, Joss Whedon has always been a real champion of female empowerment, so, for one of his movies to showcase more traditional tropes of the "barren woman" and the "woman as team nurturer" is that much more disappointing than a director who didn't know any better.  I am grateful that she has her heroic moments, too, but I think it would have added much more depth to the team if one of the GUYS had talked Banner down, for instance. 

 

I have to admit, I'm disappointed with these directions for her character, context or not. 

[frenchtoast]

I enjoyed the movie, but I'm really starting to see the Marvel Villain Problem. Because as much as James Spader was awesome as Ultron, I didn't really get what he was doing and why. And thinking about it, the only villain that I understand is Loki which is problematic since he's essentially just whiny, petulant and resentful. I love him, Tom Hiddleston is fantastic, but it's  probably not a good if there's only one memorable and understandable villain. We should remember more about the villain than they are the Maguffin. Honestly, I'd rather watch that the arms dealer and the Twins wreak havoc then listen to Ultron ramble. I'm most likely going to see it again. (Might be my Mother's Day present, which given the recent discussion I find kind of hilarious) I hope I can figure out Ultron better.

[lion10]

Natasha being sterilized IS NOT her sole shattering back story. Natasha revealed that directly in response to Bruce saying that he couldn't give her a family. People who interpret that to be Joss Whedon saying she's a monster for being sterile and not you know, assassinations and setting hospitals on fire, are going out of their way to be offended. And plenty of women wish that they were fertile as the fertility industry proves. I assume Hulk told her he couldn't give her a family is because a family is what most people want.

Age of Ultron felt like it pulled a punch at the end though. This is the best way I can describe it: it was like someone drawing back a bow for the entire movie only for at the climax to abruptly put half the slack back into the bow and then fire the arrow. I would've like to see T'Challa as well though I understand why it would be difficult to include. At least Wakanda was worked in there. Can Infinity Wars please get here already?!

ETA: Was Thor's vision that of the aftermath of Infinity Wars or Ragnarok?

Edited May 6, 2015 by lion10

[Lantern7]

I'm not keeping track. How long do we wait for the Infinity Wars movies, and how many Marvel flicks will we get in the meantime?

 

Bruce proposes a work-around to wielding Mjolnir. I find it rather cute.

[lion10]

It's gonna be 4 years. I'll be so old by then.

[Raja]

It's gonna be 4 years. I'll be so old by then.

I waited 30 years for the technology and courage to make Iron Man. I glad I'm still around to enjoy the ride.

[Dandesun]

ETA: Was Thor's vision that of the aftermath of Infinity Wars or Ragnarok?

 

You know, that's a good question. Dare I say both? Ragnarok is supposed to come before Infinity Wars so I can see how it leads to both in a sense. The glimpse of the Infinity Stones that Thor got were what led him to go to the pool and submerge in order to get a clearer look and that's when he saw them all lined up and then arrived in time to power up the cradle to bring Vision to life. But with Heimdall telling Thor that he led them to Hel... that suggest Ragnarok to me.

 

That's my interpretation of it.

[JessePinkman]

I'm not keeping track. How long do we wait for the Infinity Wars movies, and how many Marvel flicks will we get in the meantime?

 

6, which seems kind of ridiculous but I'll be there for every one (even Ant-Man).

 

Ant-Man (2015)

Captain America: Civil War (2016)

Doctor Strange (2016)

Guardians of the Galaxy 2 (2017)

Untitled Spider-Man film (2017)

Thor: Ragnarok (2017)

 

Speaking of visions (but not The Vision), I think Tony's vision was the aftermath of the Infinity War. Doesn't Thanos kill everyone in Infinity Gauntlet on some barren planet? I've never read it, he never much appealed to me as villain, I like my villains with a bit more humanity. Plus he looks kind of dumb.

Edited May 6, 2015 by JessePinkman

[Shannon L.]

And thinking about it, the only villain that I understand is Loki which is problematic since he's essentially just whiny, petulant and resentful. I love him, Tom Hiddleston is fantastic, but it's probably not a good if there's only one memorable and understandable villain.

I love Tom and Loki as well, but my favorite is villain is the Winter Soldier.

I didn't walk away with that at all. The flashback/dream was all about the training in the Red Room. The paper target turning into a bound and hooded man... the commentary "You're going to break them." "Only the ones who are breakable." None of that was about Natasha's uterus. It was about what they turned her into at such a young age.

Exactly, and taking away her ability to have children was just adding insult to injury. I know I'd feel less than human if I was shackled to my bed every night (if Agent Carter is to be believed), trained to kill on demand without remorse, given enhanced strength and had my choice to have children taken away from me because God forbid I care about anything. Quite frankly, I'm glad they gave her someone to have feelings for and someone who could have feelings for her in return. Someone she could trust enough with whom she could share her history. If that makes me an anti-feminist, then so be it (but I'd argue the point with you :) Edited May 6, 2015 by Shannon L.

[Dandesun]

Exactly, and taking away her ability to have children was just adding insult to injury.  I know I'd feel less than human if I was shackled to my bed every night (if Agent Carter is to be believed), trained to kill on demand without remorse, given enhanced strength and had my choice to have children taken away from me because God forbid I care about anything.  Quite frankly, I'm glad they gave her someone to have feelings for and someone who could have feelings for her in return.  Someone she could trust enough to whom she could show those feelings.  If that makes me an anti-feminist, then so be it (but I'd argue the point with you :)

 

Yes. The Red Room in its entirety is what's horrific. All of the little pieces that add up into a place that creates remorseless assassins. Natasha was a child trained to kill and when she finished her training they removed what they considered to be a potential weakness. That doesn't make Natasha a monster... it makes the people who did that to her monsters. And she does have red in her ledger and things she feels she must answer for but it's interesting that whatever it was that made Clint decide not to kill her had to have been there all along. Somewhere. Clint 'made a different choice' way back in the day and it clearly didn't have a damn thing to do with Natasha's uterus. The Red Room didn't kill everything in her. She was able to forge a tight bond with Clint. Her relationship with Nick clearly mattered a great deal given her reaction to him in Winter Soldier.

 

And she managed to not only earn Steve's trust but his friendship as well. For me, who just loves everything about Steve, that means a lot.

 

I agree, also, that giving her the ability to love someone after what they did to her in the Red Room is a good thing. It doesn't negate her independence so much as offers her more than to be just a killing/spying machine. Natasha remains a strong and powerful woman. She's a strong, powerful, dedicated, vulnerable, damaged, intelligent, determined woman. 

 

And I think it's interesting that she played the game with Loki in Avengers... appearing appalled and horrified and cowed in order to get him to spill his plan but in Ultron she honestly did tell Bruce she adored him, happy to be with him in that moment, before shoving him off the side and saying 'but I need the Other Guy right now.' Ultimately, I think Bruce probably understood... but I also understood why he left. In a way, neither one of them would ever be completely free. Very sad but, you know, I loved Natasha being there with Steve at the end. They make a good team.

 

(And can I just pretend this leaves her free for when Bucky shows up again?)

[Raja]

perhaps the Black Widow was manipulating Banner once her fear of the other guy was conquered as much as she manipulated Loki and the Russian General in The Avengers besides her fighting skills that has been her super power.

[lion10]

Love can tame the wildest :).

[VCRTracking]

It's interesting but 'Dottie' from Agent Carter turned out to be pretty unstable whereas Natasha while damaged is still a rational person. This could have been a problem with a lot of early Black Widows and the KGB could have decided that fake memory implants of "ballet school" would have been a way to make Red Room trainees more mentally balanced after leaving.

 

A good article arguing against the idea that Black Widow's portrayal was non-feminist  by Allyssa Rosenberg of the Washington Post.

The strong feminism behind Black Widow, and why the critiques don’t stand up

 

 

[tennisgurl]

Did anyone else get the vibe that, with all the attention given to the Avengers and SHIELD saving civilians, and getting people out of harms way, they were deliberately taking a swipe at DC, and at Man of Steel. I mean, that movie got TONS of controversy about how Superman didn't do enough to save civilians during the movie, and that his big final fight basically leveled Metropolis (not saying that's legit or not, just saying its been a major criticism), and this movies whole final act was about the good guys trying to save the people in the city, with almost more time put into their evacuation of civilians than to the big robot fights. Maybe I`m reading too much into it, but it definitely feels like this was Marvels answer to the "dark dark DARK" DC movies. 

 

My friends who have seen it have all also agreed that Quicksilver is totally alive. I mean, the guy has a long ass history in Marvel comics, and with the Avengers. It would be pointless to write him out of the MCU permanently. Besides, how many people have died in the MCU? How many have turned up again? Eventually, we`re going to find out that Pietro took a vacation to Tahiti or something, I`ll put money on it. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by tennisgurl

[VCRTracking]

If he really is dead then one of the things it's a shame to lose are more Clint/Pietro interactions which were some of my fave moments in AOU. Jeremy Renner can be a jerk but then he posts stuff like this on his Facebook page:

 

Edited May 7, 2015 by VCRTracking

[lovemytvshows]

Gah! That picture just makes me miss Quicksilver all the more! Hawkeye taking him and Scarlet Witch under his wing is something that could've been further explored (i.e. in Civil War perhaps, training montage etc) and I would pay to watch that. Wasted potential killing off Quicksilver.

[Raja]

Did anyone else get the vibe that, with all the attention given to the Avengers and SHIELD saving civilians, and getting people out of harms way, they were deliberately taking a swipe at DC, and at Man of Steel. I mean, that movie got TONS of controversy about how Superman didn't do enough to save civilians during the movie, and that his big final fight basically leveled Metropolis (not saying that's legit or not, just saying its been a major criticism), and this movies whole final act was about the good guys trying to save the people in the city, with almost more time put into their evacuation of civilians than to the big robot fights. Maybe I`m reading too much into it, but it definitely feels like this was Marvels answer to the "dark dark DARK" DC movies. 

 

My friends who have seen it have all also agreed that Quicksilver is totally alive. I mean, the guy has a long ass history in Marvel comics, and with the Avengers. It would be pointless to write him out of the MCU permanently. Besides, how many people have died in the MCU? How many have turned up again? Eventually, we`re going to find out that Pietro took a vacation to Tahiti or something, I`ll put money on it. 

Well it happened in the first Avengers movie too. With aliens coming through a wormhole Captain America and the Black Widows tactical contribution was to hold the line while NYPD evacuated civilians and his big three fought the main battle. With Thor and The Hulk on the field even regular Avengers are just another soldier in some situations.

[lion10]

I loved Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in this movie. Their relationship was so sweet. I like the DOFP Quicksilver better though. The DOFP Quicksilver is faster than his Avengers incarnation right?

[Jazzy24]

I loved Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver in this movie. Their relationship was so sweet. I like the DOFP Quicksilver better though. The DOFP Quicksilver is faster than his Avengers incarnation right?

Yeah he is faster but I loved the Avengers' Quicksilver more, plus he's more accurate as Quicksilver than the DOFP one was.

[Dandesun]

Did anyone else get the vibe that, with all the attention given to the Avengers and SHIELD saving civilians, and getting people out of harms way, they were deliberately taking a swipe at DC, and at Man of Steel. I mean, that movie got TONS of controversy about how Superman didn't do enough to save civilians during the movie, and that his big final fight basically leveled Metropolis (not saying that's legit or not, just saying its been a major criticism), and this movies whole final act was about the good guys trying to save the people in the city, with almost more time put into their evacuation of civilians than to the big robot fights. Maybe I`m reading too much into it, but it definitely feels like this was Marvels answer to the "dark dark DARK" DC movies. 

 

Protecting civilians has been Marvel's MO since jump. It's been brought up before that Ultron was a direct response to Man of Steel but if you go through all of the Marvel movies you'll see that protecting the lives of civilians has been a part of the hero's methods since Iron Man. Thor acknowledged that he was 'just a man' in his first movie and worked to safely evacuate the town before offering his own life for them all. Cap was on the front lines in war but then crashed the Valkyrie into the ice on purpose in order to save the civilian populations that were in danger of being injured if he tried to land anywhere else. The Dark World involved getting people clear (they were too busy wanting to catch Thor on their cell phones) or using their tech to send the Dark Elves somewhere else. Winter Soldier involved an algorithm that was targeting mass amounts of people, most of which were innocent civilians, that stopping Hydra saved. And Guardians of the Galaxy...

 

Well, there is the joke that goes around saying that Rocket Raccoon saved more civilians than Superman. It's true. And Rocket's not exactly known for his philanthropy. He's a bounty hunter.

 

The first Avengers had Cap, Hawkeye and Widow helping get civilians to safety (as well as acknowledging the loss of life at the end)... so Ultron is really just par for the course. It's how Marvel works. Hey, let's take it a little farther. The first time we see Daredevil in action on Netflix, he's saving a group of women from human traffickers. Daredevil is street level so his heroics seem a bit smaller though no less important.

 

The point is that Marvel doesn't do this because they want to take a swipe at DC. They've always shown that protecting civilians is part of a hero's job description.

 

ETA: In regards to Quicksilver... well... Wanda and Pietro were a point of contention between MCU and Fox, which owns the rights to the X-men, and it gets rather complicated. Wanda and Pietro were introduced in Uncanny X-Men. They were members of Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (always liked how Magneto didn't dick around with titles in the SIlver Age. "We're evil! It says so in our mission statement!") At the time, they were not known to be his children, that came later.

 

They were not thrilled to be a part of his group but they felt they owed him because he saved their lives. After they cut ties with Magneto they wound up joining the Avengers. Here's where it gets to the point where Marvel Studios and Fox had to come to an agreement. Wanda is an Avenger. Despite her being a mutant and despite her relationship with Magneto (the latter having been retconned again into not existing) ever since she joined the Avengers that's where she's been... in one team or another. Pietro is another story. He was with the Avengers for awhile, he married Crystal (a member of the Inhuman royal family) who has been involved with the Avengers and the Fantastic Four and had a child with her. In 1990, he wound up on the X side of things again when he joined X-Factor. While getting involved in Wanda's crap every now and again (House of M for example... grrrr) Pietro has been considered part of the X-Universe for the past several decades (even joining up with X-Factor again in order to keep an eye on Lorna... refusing an invitation to join the Uncanny Avengers (please don't ask, it hurts) to remain with his sister (who after the Magneto retcon probably isn't his sister anymore.)

 

So what it comes down to is that Marvel and Fox were really fighting over the rights to Quicksilver because he's totally bi-team. So Fox agreed that Marvel could use him to introduce Wanda but Fox gets him full time after that. Fox, meanwhile, has no hint of Wanda at all.

 

I liked both Quicksilvers to be honest. But the Time in a Bottle scene definitely tilts the score in X-Pietro's favor. That scene was awesome. And MCU-Pietro got a heroic sacrifice and a namesake. So it's good.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Dandesun

[lion10]

Yeah he is faster but I loved the Avengers' Quicksilver more, plus he's more accurate as Quicksilver than the DOFP one was.

How? Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are Magento's children and that holds for DOFP but in Age of Ultron, they're random experiments. I have to say I like the DOFP Quicksilver if only because of his "Time in a Bottle" scene. That ranks up there with Nightcrawler using his teleportation spam to infiltrate the White House.

[BatmanBeatles]

How come Falcon wasn't involved in the fight scenes? We saw War Machine.

Edited May 7, 2015 by BatmanBeatles

[JessePinkman]

How? Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are Magento's children and that holds for DOFP but in Age of Ultron, they're random experiments. I have to say I like the DOFP Quicksilver if only because of his "Time in a Bottle" scene. That ranks up there with Nightcrawler using his teleportation spam to infiltrate the White House.

 

I believe Jazzy24 was saying that his powers were portrayed more accurately. Quicksilver is fast but he's not...faster than time fast, you know what I mean? He's not the Flash, Superman would leave him in the dust but he is super fast, just not breaking the time barrier fast.

 

So what it comes down to is that Marvel and Fox were really fighting over the rights to Quicksilver because he's totally bi-team. So Fox agreed that Marvel could use him to introduce Wanda but Fox gets him full time after that. 

 

Is that true? That sucks. I loved that QS scene too but he looks so stupid and the X-Men movies are such a clusterfuck now.

 

Cap 3 is shaping up to be Avengers 3 and I don't know how to feel about that. Winter Soldier was so nice and pared down. I wonder what style the Russo's are going for with this, are they adding all of these characters as sort of a warm up to directing everyone in Infinity War?

[Dandesun]

How? Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are Magento's children and that holds for DOFP but in Age of Ultron, they're random experiments. I have to say I like the DOFP Quicksilver if only because of his "Time in a Bottle" scene. That ranks up there with Nightcrawler using his teleportation spam to infiltrate the White House.

 

They've retconned Magneto being their father recently but... whatever, they've also just destroyed all of continuity altogether. Yes! A second Secret Wars where the book actually had "Marvel Universe: 1961-2015" at the end. (Along with the Ultimate Universe which apparently they're going to combine in some way... it's a thing and I don't even get most of it.)

 

Pietro and Wanda are actually Romany but making them orphans of an Eastern European country who submit themselves for genetic experimentation in order to gain power to get back at Tony Stark because one of his missiles blew their apartment... gives them their accent I guess. Also, I'm thinking that the Stark Industries shell was probably one that Obadiah Stane sold to someone before Tony knew what he was up to. If it makes Wanda feel any better, Tony got blown up with one of his own shells once, too.

 

 

How come Falcon wasn't involved in the fight scenes? We saw War Machine.

 

Falcon was probably looking for Bucky.

[Jazzy24]

How? Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are Magento's children and that holds for DOFP but in Age of Ultron, they're random experiments. I have to say I like the DOFP Quicksilver if only because of his "Time in a Bottle" scene. That ranks up there with Nightcrawler using his teleportation spam to infiltrate the White House.

In DOFP the only thing they got right about Quicksilver was his father, I don't remember much about his speed.

Quicksilver' name is Pietro not "Peter" like in DOFP. Plus Quicksilver is more of a hotheaded guy, yeah he snarks but he does it because he's not a patient person/arrogant, Quicksilver is not a playful person he gets more annoyed with people.

We didn't get a lot of personality from Quicksilver in the movie or his powers but personality wise, Avengers' Quicksilver is more accurate to the comics.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Jazzy24

[Bruinsfan]

They did have a couple of nice power scenes for Quicksilver, like him seeing Hawkeye's bullet flying up past him in slow motion as the glass floor collapsed underneath him, and grabbing hold of Mjolnir in flight before finding out he was unable to redirect its path.
 

Well, there is the joke that goes around saying that Rocket Raccoon saved more civilians than Superman. It's true. And Rocket's not exactly known for his philanthropy. He's a bounty hunter.

For all the destruction his fights caused, Superman also singlehandedly saved 7 billion people from having their planet terraformed out from under them. And I question why all those civilians in Metropolis were still hanging around in the buildings he and Zod were crashing through when an alien spaceship had effectively nuked the center of the city about 40 minutes earlier. I know I'd have either been in a car on my way out of the city or cowering in a subway station somewhere.

[ChelseaNH]

Apparently Joss Whedon closed his Twitter account due to hostile Tweets about the way Black Widow was written.

Per an interview with Buzzfeed, he didn't want the distraction of a Twitter addiction while he was getting back to his own projects.

 

Great article on io9 on why the Black Widow storyline upset so many people

Don't know if they fixed it, but the version I read yesterday misquoted the movie.  In their version, Natasha reveals she was sterilized, that it's simpler, and then asks Bruce if he thinks he's the only monster on the team.  But in the movie, after saying that sterilization makes things simpler, she goes on to say that it removes the only thing that "might matter more than the mission."  So it's only after bringing it back around to her identity as an assassin that she asks Bruce if he thinks she's the only monster on the team.  I find that significant.

In the comics, everybody has dated everybody, so they're all sluts really.

Comics are soap operas with colorful spandex costumes.

[Shannon L.]

Just out of curiosity, in the MCU, is Black Widow considered a super hero or an assassin?

[JessePinkman]

Don't know if they fixed it, but the version I read yesterday misquoted the movie.  In their version, Natasha reveals she was sterilized, that it's simpler, and then asks Bruce if he thinks he's the only monster on the team.  But in the movie, after saying that sterilization makes things simpler, she goes on to say that it removes the only thing that "might matter more than the mission."  So it's only after bringing it back around to her identity as an assassin that she asks Bruce if he thinks she's the only monster on the team.  I find that significant.

 

I thought that quote seemed wrong! And I just watched the scene (by means) and she literally says: "They sterilize you. It's efficient, one less thing to worry about. The one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier. Even killing. You still think you're the only monster on the team?"

 

She's clearly talking about killing making her a monster, not the inability to have children.

 

Comics are soap operas with colorful spandex costumes.

 

I've been saying this my entire life. I'm a huge fan of longform storytelling, which explains my former interest in soap operas and comic books.

[Dandesun]

Just out of curiosity, in the MCU, is Black Widow considered a super hero or an assassin?

 

They consider her more a spy than an assassin. But in the MCU, they've never hinted that she's anything more than a normal human with superior skills... much like Hawkeye. However, Tony isn't super human, either. He's just a genius who can build amazing things and has the means to create them. There is still very few character that have legit super abilities.

 

Cap is one. Bruce is another. Thor is an alien prince. Vision is a synth-android. Falcon is a guy with jet-pack wings. War Machine is a guy with an armored suit. Wanda has actual powers.

 

Ant-Man appears to be powered by a suit. Black Panther... not sure what they'll do there. Captain Marvel is a complex origin story involving a human woman getting in the crossfire of a Kree machine that combines her biology with Mar-Vell. (But I don't know what they'll do in the MCU.) Star Lord from Guardians is half human half unspecified alien species.. And Bucky was experimented on after his initial capture and has a bionic arm.

 

Comics are soap operas with colorful spandex costumes.

I've been saying this my entire life. I'm a huge fan of longform storytelling, which explains my former interest in soap operas and comic books.

 

Yep. They are both serial storytelling with shifting writers/regimes and casts. Both involve outlandish stories. Death means very little in either. Soaps have more sex and comics have more explosions but both have involved crazy, eye-catching fashion choices.

[dusang]

If I were to complain about any part of Black Widow in AoU it would be to question why an assassin, who would benefit from stealth, would have function-less light-up stripes on her uniform.  Aesthetically pleasing but counterproductive.

[Dandesun]

I think they power up her Widow's Stings.

 

Besides, she wasn't doing anything particularly stealthy so maybe she busted out the neon version. "Woo-hoo! I get to wear the Tron-styled Widow outfit today!"

Edited May 7, 2015 by Dandesun