S04.E20: Lily

[Camera One]

Take-home message of the flashbacks: Snow and Charming destroys the lives of at-risk teenagers.  They were laying it on thick with manipulating the audience to feel badly for Lily.  Everytime she tries to do anything, it just messes up.  We got that conversation twice, plus the Apprentice stating on the bus to her that everything she does is harder for her than anyone else and the cards were stacked against her.  I'm angry that they've devolved two iconic heroes to basically grovel for forgiveness for half a season.  Except even that isn't consistent, since last episode, they said they felt they did the right thing with the Egg, and this week, they're saying sorry to Maleficent since "they just realized".  Their actions in any of 4B in flashbacks or otherwise is not believable on any level.

 

The actress playing Young Emma is very good.  I really felt for her, and I also feel badly for Adult Emma at her feeling guilty about what happened to Lily.  I'll bet the writers had a kick out of having Regina be the stable one while Emma was halfway to Crazy Town.  So now Emma owes Regina for pulling her back from the brink of an execution-style murder.  I actually did enjoy aspects of the Emma/Regina camaraderie, though Regina was almost too patient with all these detours before getting to save Robin.

 

I thought the Young Lily actress did better in this episode than her first one, but it was the same old games.  The Sorcerer's Apprentice is just stupid.  If he was trying to undo what happened, why didn't he also find Emma, and tell her the truth, and get them to grow up together, so their good/bad would balance each other or whatever.  Why did he wait until they were teenagers?  None of it makes any sense.  Based on what he saw, he basically showed up on a bus and told Lily that the reason why her life was so hard was because Emma's parents screwed her over?  How helpful.  

 

Another random family that Emma got set up with?  So the opportunities flowed more in the teenage years?

 

What was up with Belle not knowing Regina took her heart?  Huh?  So the writers are already having Belle look at Rumple with new light and quite fondly, from that final scene as he left the shop.  Blech.

 

Wouldn't the Vault be a better place for Maleficent to guard the heart instead of the Mayor's office?  This was so contrived... just so they could have a central location where various characters could visit the grieving mother.  Exactly how would Emma finding Lily foil Rumple's plans?  How will it "prove Gold wrong" that [Emma] will become dark?

 

So Lily is now completely normal again by the end of this episode. LOL.  I don't get it... why did she still make dumb decisions while she was in close proximity to Emma?  Isn't she supposed to be "better" when they're together?

 

That ending with Zelena revealing she was pregnant was just so tacky.  I am embarrassed for the show that it's now no better than a daytime soap opera.

 

They really write as if the audience was stupid.  Regina to Robin: "[Marion] is my sister... Zelena."  Robin: "The Wicked Witch?!!"  Why would Regina have to explain who Zelena was to Robin?  He was there in 3B, remember?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

I know, and that's part of what I hate about it. I hate this plot. I hate the idea that they created a storyline in which this is actually in any way true. I loathe the very idea that anyone pretending to be a professional would create a character whose bad actions can actually be explained away as not her fault because fate.

And I say: hey, at least it isn't Regina. At least lying and stealing are the worst Lily has done.

If Lily murdered a whole town it's not her control because the stupid writers don't want these morons to take responsibilities for their actions?

Yes, and that's why I repeat, let's be thankful a simple crook like Lily is being saddled with this bit of bad writing and not someone who actually HAS murdered whole towns.

That ending with Zelena revealing she was pregnant was just so tacky. I am embarrassed for the show that it's now no better than a daytime soap opera.

The big difference being that daytime soap operas have actual relationship development and conversations/reactions about the dumbass twists and overdramatic events that happen.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Mathius

[Leia1979]

Free will is dead! Long live free will!

 

Seriously, WTF are these writers doing? I hate all of this fate stuff. I hate seeing Emma, who is generally so level-headed, just flipping out on Lily and pulling a gun on her. Yeah, it's supposed to be Emma's descent into darkness, but that's only because they've taken away her free will. Real Emma wouldn't do that, but they've turned her into a pod-person. When Regina is the voice of reason, I know something is terribly wrong.

 

I fully admit to laughing hysterically at Zelena's pregnancy reveal. Like I scared my cat by laughing so loudly. As soon as Robin said he couldn't leave, I knew it was coming. There really must be a dart board of plot points in the writer's room.

[ParadoxLost]

Given proximity maybe they drained potential for bad choices / evil from Snow by accident instead of from fetus Emma.  That would explain why the awesome that was Bandit Snow essentially vanished and now she runs around thinking killing Cora and Cruella is murder and all the other stupid Pollyanna stuff that comes out of her mouth.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

Yes, and that's why I repeat, let's be thankful a simple crook like Lily is being saddled with this bit of bad writing and not someone who actually HAS murdered whole towns.

The season's not over yet. I have a sick feeling that they might be headed in that direction and we'll learn that Poor Woegina never actually did all that awful stuff, but was made to do it by someone else, so it's not really her fault.

[KingOfHearts]

 

we'll learn that Poor Woegina never actually did all that awful stuff, but was made to do it by someone else, so it's not really her fault.

Wasn't that the purpose of Operation Mongoose and the Author plot in the first place? The Great Whitewashing?

 

I'm about done with this show. This episode pushed me over the edge. I'm pretty much just going to keep tabs on what happens and stay here for the conversation. I'm not even interested in watching every episode any more. It's boring and it makes me mad. It's not good for Sunday evenings.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[BoPeeps]

Jaysus, who are these insipid characters and what the hell happened to the show I loved?

[Camera One]

If Rumple wants to turn Emma dark, why isn't he kidnapping her entire family while she's out of town?  The only two magic-doers who can even fight against him is taking a road trip, and he's having heart-to-hearts with Belle?  Is there any urgency to his plans, or is there really no rush?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

The season's not over yet. I have a sick feeling that they might be headed in that direction and we'll learn that Poor Woegina never actually did all that awful stuff, but was made to do it by someone else, so it's not really her fault.

 

I'm positive the author wrote Regina's decision not to meet Robin which is basically the same thing.  They'll spin it as Regina would never been the Evil Queen had she made her own choice at a pivotal moment.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't necessarily want more Henry scenes, but isn't it odd that we have no idea what he thinks about all this? We don't know how he's reacting to having been kidnapped and held hostage by Cruella. Has he changed his "heroes don't kill" stance after being the one with a gun held to his head, and does learning after the fact that Cruella couldn't have pulled the trigger change anything? What does he think about what his grandparents did? Or does he even know? Is he as upset with them as Emma is? Is he worried about Emma going dark? What does he think about his other grandfather being back in town, and what does he think about all the stuff he did? He obviously wasn't with Snow and David while Emma and Regina were gone, since he wasn't in their scene. Was he at school? Hanging out with Hook?

 

This would have been a good spot for a heart-to-heart chat between him and Hook, in which Hook would have tried to ease his fears and reassured him about how strong his mother is while still being honest about the dangers of darkness. It would make sense for Henry to go to Hook, as the resident remaining expert on going dark.

 

This episode sucked, but I think there might have been a decent Once Upon a Time Offscreen going on.

[Phillygurl]

I went through all the trouble of retrieving my password and logging in just to say I'm done with Outlaw Queen.

 

So done. I mean eww. It was ridiculous of him to leave in the first place but I could see how this was him being noble. But then for him to move in with this woman he felt to be a stranger and then when she gives him an ultimatum he says "Yeah that's true, I'll love you instead" all because of what the most disgusting morally reprehensible character has to say about love? And if that's not ridiculous enough, when Regina comes all the way from storybooke to try to save his trifling behind, his first response is: "Now I know you're obsessed with me, only woman in the world who would tell me to leave to take care of my sick defenseless wife, but you need to realize I've moved on now, living in the shit-hole of an apartment, with this woman who looks like my wife who told me to love her so I did." And if that's not ridiculous enough, he is going to STAY knowing she is Zelena because she is pregnant and it's the right thing to do. Because of course there is no way this woman sick enough to have killed and had been impersonating his wife could maybe somehow not actually be pregnant.

 

Here's the deal, Regina may be an evil queen and all but sheesh can't she have a man who is solely devoted to her and maybe not an idiot? Maybe on her level is some respect? This guy is so annoyingly idiotic and stupid. I wish she would burn that stupid page with her happy ending and move to Minnesota and start fresh. Robin is ruined for me now. Eww at the thought of it all. I will only watch now to see the havoc anti-savior and dragon-mommy will wreak. 

[Actionmage]

I don't necessarily want more Henry scenes, but isn't it odd that we have no idea what he thinks about all this?

 

 

It is weird because Henry drove a whole lot of S1  and parts of S2. He was the McGuffin for 3A. Yet, his uncle came along and was worried over for 3B and he's been mostly sidelined throughout 4, despite his driving the inane Author Quest. 

 

Despite feelings about Henry, it's got to be strange to be relegated to OffscreenVille after being an active participant for a long time. Even if some of that was having Red tell you  she was the sitter/protection du jour.

 

 

Are we supposed to just chalk Zelena's Bwahahaha moment as just being nutty, because she almost got away with fooling everyone. This is not Zelena's way of being a bubble off plumb.

[Shanna Marie]

It is weird because Henry drove a whole lot of S1  and parts of S2.

It's not just the driving, it's the lack of payoff, yet again. If he gets held at gunpoint and then his mother kills someone to save him, it would be nice to get at least a little reaction from him, especially since a year ago (in their time) he was the one spouting the "heroes don't kill!" stuff about Snow and Cora. How does he feel now that he was the one in immediate danger? Does he think Emma should have found another way? Is he conflicted? This would have been a good place to show whether he's maturing, whether he has less of a black-and-white world view. He spent a year in New York -- and even if he lost the growing up with Emma fake memories, he really did live for that year in New York. Did that change anything? When something major happens to a character, it's nice to get a little follow-up to see how it affects him.

 

It would be like Regina getting the bombshell in this episode and then we don't see anything afterward to show how she feels about it. Not that there's any danger of this happening. A kid seeing his mother kill someone to save him should be affected.

[Curio]

Another strange oddity: Regina walks out of the building with the magic scroll and says something like, "Ingrid's scroll. Just in case we encounter any issues returning back to Storybrooke." And then Emma's like, "Oh, good thinking."

 

What the hell were you guys going to do if Regina didn't bring the scroll?! Isn't that their one-way-ticket in and out of town at the moment? Why was that a last second thought Regina just happened to remember minutes before they took off? Shouldn't that have been priority #1? They treated their return to Storybrooke like how I almost forget my key fob before I go to work in the morning.

[tennisgurl]

 

Are we supposed to just chalk Zelena's Bwahahaha moment as just being nutty, because she almost got away with fooling everyone. This is not Zelena's way of being a bubble off plumb.

Zelena: "And I would have have gotten away with it to, if it weren't for you meddling magical royalty"!

 

Seriously though, what is Zelena`s game? Did she just want Regina to know she was pregnant? Then why not still be Marian? Then Regina looks bad, and she still gets to be with Robin?  Doesn't that make more sense than just cackling away, and revealing herself? Or is it just because Zelena is that level of nuttsy coco? 

[Camera One]

And then Emma's like, "Oh, good thinking."

 

LOL, we're missing the scene where they all discuss if it's better to leave the only collective brain cell in Storybrooke, or to bring it along for the road trip.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Let's start off with the good news. Sadly, it has nothing to do with the episode. Today, my parents celebrated their 45th wedding anniversary. Congratulations to them! In other news, I consumed half a bottle of rum to get through this episode. At this rate, my liver will not survive the season.

 

On with the show notes:

 

- "Our actions are our own, but fate pushes us" Yeah, I'm not impressed with how they're trying to pretend there's free will but fate screws us over anyway.

 

- Why is the Author all Team Rumpel? I don't get it.

 

- Cute Captain Swan moment. I've missed you!

 

- Emma was living in Boston five years ago and yet the longest she'd spent anywhere in the ten years prior to showing up in Storybrooke was two years in Tallahassee. Paging the Continuity Fairy. Also Emma, you did not grow up in Minnesota. You spent less than a year there as a teenager.

 

- Love that Lily and her boyfriend knocked over a Tom Thumb. I remember Tom Thumb. Are those around anymore?

 

- Hey a Baby Snowflake mention. He's still alive apparently. Probably doesn't know who his parents are at this point, but hey, babysitters are the best.

 

- Okay, so the Conspiracy/Psycho Crazy/Murder board entertained me. But again, half a bottle of rum. It doesn't take much at this point.

 

- Why wouldn't Maleficent go after Will? This is just dumb.

 

- There are no heroes and villains, just real people with real problems. I kind of like unbalanced Emma. She speaks sense.

 

- I'm sorry, but where the hell is Emma going to go with the Mankato transit system? It's freaking Mankato and it's night time. Buses barely run in major metropolitan areas at night much less Mankato. I texted my brother who was a student at Mankato State in 1999. He laughed at the idea of buses (at all really) but mostly at buses at night. Whatever, show.

 

- I think both the lightning and the headlight were Emma. That wasn't Lily. I liked that Regina seemed to understand that something magical was going on.

 

- The Apprentice kind of sucks. Way to bait the crazy dark girl, you idiot.

 

- Still not clear on how Emma brings light into Lily's world. Lily met Emma again, sent her on a mission to retrieve the necklace and stole from the foster parents. Those are not good choices, Lily.

 

- Of course Zelena is pregnant. Those rapey Mills girls are just a hoot. I just can't even get up to energy to have a reaction to this storyline. Next week, I'm expecting that we learn that Cora also enjoyed raping men. It's a Mills family tradition that's not at all sick or twisted. Screw you, writers!

 

To end, I would just like to say that I didn't hate the episode except that it was again almost devoid of fun and humor and that's not the show I used to love watching. In a microcosm and with different writers, I would be on board with the exploration of intertwined fates and all. Unfortunately, it's This Show and These Writers, so everything is a muddled mess and it makes no sense. I'll hang on for the finale, but only because it's only two weeks until I can take a much deserved break from this show.

Edited April 27, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[FurryFury]

So, should I watch this episode? On the scale from "Breaking Glass" (unbelievably awful) to "Sympathy to De Vil" (pretty bad with a few OK moments), how terrible is it? (trying to avoid spoilers)

[queenbee]

Well, I said I was done if Zelena was pregnant. See you later, Once Upon A Time. It was fun for awhile, but I'm sure my life will be less frustrating without you.

 

If it turns out to a fake-out, I'll come back. Maybe.

[Rumsy4]

So, should I watch this episode? On the scale from "Breaking Glass" (unbelievably awful) to "Sympathy to De Vil" (pretty bad with a few OK moments), how terrible is it? (trying to avoid spoilers)

Somewhere in the middle, I would say. There were some godawful scenes though. There is some important (though confusing) information revealed about Emma.

[Serena]

I must have been drunk when watching, because when I saw the wolf, I also thought of Graham, and I thought "oh, this is when the truth about his death will come out and Emma will REALLY go batshit." Poor, delusional me.

 

I did cackle when Zelena revealed she was pregnant, because anything that makes Regina miserable amuses me, but really? I hope they're not gonna pretend this is a huge, insurmontable issue. Okay, so Zelena is pregnant. Bring her to SB, take her baby when she delivers (because she's cray cray and no way fit to raise a child) and then PUT HER IN JAIL! Where she is supposed to be.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Serena

[FurryFury]

Somewhere in the middle, I would say. There were some godawful scenes though. There is some important (though confusing) information revealed about Emma.

I still got spoilered about Zelena, and holy shit, fuck you, show. That's just revolting.

 

Maybe I'll FF through it for Emma stuff. How bad was Lily compared to her younger version whom I couldn't stand in "Breaking Glass"?

[chrisvee]

These stories have become abhorrent and inconsistent. Not much incentive to keep tuning in.

Interesting that after fan reaction to Graham/ Regina they decided to double down with Zelena/ Robin.

[Serena]

I'm positive the author wrote Regina's decision not to meet Robin which is basically the same thing.  They'll spin it as Regina would never been the Evil Queen had she made her own choice at a pivotal moment.

And they'll helpfully forget that Rumple was masterminding this all along and if Regina had gone to meet Robin, Rumple would have murdered him and made it look like Snow's fault? Also, wasn't he already MARRIED at this point? And, I mean, so was she.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Serena

[kili]

They really write as if the audience was stupid.  Regina to Robin: "[Marion] is my sister... Zelena."  Robin: "The Wicked Witch?!!"  Why would Regina have to explain who Zelena was to Robin?  He was there in 3B, remember?

 

Well, to be fair to Robin, it is This Show, These Writers and he has been to Storybrooke. He needed to clarify it was "The Wicked Witch" because Regina could have found out about one or two more secret siblings while he was out of town. Storybrooke usually serves up a few never-heard of before relatives every month and he's been gone two.

 

Why is Robin so horrified that he's been hanging out and having sex with the woman who killed his wife? it's not like it's the first time that's ever happened to him.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

So as ridiculous as I thought the "she was my first and best friend and I pushed her away" regret/ lament Emma had over what we thought was a 4-hour friendship, that at least was more believable than regretting cutting ties with a liar who used you when she got in trouble, stole from your foster family, and ruined your relationship with said foster family. That’s a toxic person you should want far away from your life not someone you should regret not keeping in touch with…although the episode where Emma first had that regret was the episode where she was begging Regina to forgive her for saving Robin’s wife from being executed by Regina so maybe she needs change her criteria when selecting friends.

 

I cannot tell you how much I hate this “poor Lily had this evil thrust upon her and her life was shit” message. Phew I’m so relieved that Emma got the good life with the being thrown in the wardrobe and found along the highway, abandoned by her pseudo-guardian Pinocchio to fend for herself in foster care, given back by her potential adoptive family when they had a biological child of their own, not staying with any foster family longer than 6 months, when a foster mom finally wants to adopt her its only because she wants to use her in a weird sister replacement plan, stealing/life of crime, the douchebag boyfriend who knocks her up and then lets her take the fall for his crimes, having to give up her kid, and basically being along for 28 years of her life. Not to mention her life hasn’t exactly been sunshine and rainbows since the curse broke and she found her family. But please give me another episode about poor Lily who had the deck stacked against her and everything went wrong for her. I have not hated a character as much as Lily since Tamara. Comparisons to 2B are never good.

 

What is the author’s vested interest in making Emma go dark? Also, the Charmings are idiots for leaving him at Rumple’s cabin after they had him last week. What was the point in looking for him a couple weeks ago, only to find him and let him go? I know they had to save Emma from “going dark” but…idiots.

 

RIP Belle’s new 4B backbone, I will miss what little we saw of you. So this pretty much shoots the theory that she gave Regina her heart willingly, but WTF with this pity party for Rumple. Her heart was fully intact when she heard that he glamorspelled himself as Hook to lie and steal the dagger from her when she said “just when I think he couldn’t deceive me again, he found a way” and tonight he admitted he was lying to her all through their marriage! What’s with the doe-eyed, “he’s a good man” eyes she was giving him? I can’t articulate how awful and abusive that relationship is and how disgusted it makes me that she seems to be walking right back to him.

 

Mal’s makeup was so distractingly awful. It’s aging her in a very unflattering way.

 

The less I say about the pregnant Zelena thing the better. Although when that is not the issue that bothers me the most in an episode, I think there’s a problem.

 

This arc is just a mess for me.

 

About the ONLY THING this show does right is Captain Swan. None of the romantic angst fuckery that goes on with other shows. They are downright sweet.

Yep Captain Swan is pretty much the only thing keeping me here. I'm now convinced all the CS scenes are written by a talented, uncredited writer that they keep locked in a closet, who is only allowed to write the CS scenes because the rest of the writers are only interested in their "genius" plot twists. Otherwise it doesn't compute that writers who manage to write that relationship so beautifully also churn out the rest of this shit.

 

- Hey a Baby Snowflake mention. He's still alive apparently. Probably doesn't know who his parents are at this point, but hey, babysitters are the best.

 

- The Apprentice kind of sucks. Way to bait the crazy dark girl, you idiot.

Snowflake will probably say his first word "mama" to Belle or Granny since they are the ones raising that poor kid now. But hey a mention is more than he's gotten the rest of this half season, so victory there I guess.

 

The Apprentice totally sucks! Yep help Lily because Emma's life is aces.  Asshole. Also, color me underwhelmed that the Sorcerer is just blue smoke.

[FurryFury]

Well, I've read a recap and decided to skip this one. Especially with Nimerfro as a writer. 

 

Worst thing is, if not for the fate/Author crap, I could have loved the Emma/Lily story - in concept and if Emma were allowed to react naturally. But no, the writers insist on this idiotic storyline than undermines the whole concept of heroism. What's point if Emma was "programmed" to be a good guy and Lily - a bad guy? Seriously? This is so unbelievably stupid that I can't believe somebody thought it was a good idea.

 

As for Zelena baby, no comment. I don't even want to process it. Maybe it's time to tell this show goodbye for good.

[kili]

Teen Emma is the bad guy and Teen Lily is the victim because Teen Emma doesn't want to be friends with a person who lies to her all the time, betrayed her, stole from her family (all their vacation money), destroying that family's trust in her and causing her to be sent back into the system? Sounds to me like Teen Emma is a very sane and rational person.

 

Are heroes really required to spend all of their time letting the villains take advantage of them or the heroes are worse than the villains? Must the heroes lose everything in the pursuit of the villain's happiness? Teen Emma's life just got destroyed again by Teen Lily, but Teen Emma should warmly embrace her and see what other things she can do to make Teen Lily happy? If she doesn't, she should feel guilt her entire life? Teen Lily had the worse life being raised by a loving family while Teen Emma should be grateful for her constant life of rejection and betrayal?

 

Teen Lily gets a visit from the Apprentice to explain everything and tell her it isn't her fault? Teen Emma gets...nothing....This Show, These Writers.

 

Meanwhile, Malificient who thinks nothing of burning up people because she can't be bothered to put them to sleep or walk a few miles out of her way and destroys an entire village to create a nest gets to sit there being all Judgy-McJudgerson about Snowing for their one mistake. No doubt that Snowing were wrong and Mal has a right to be angry at them, but where does she get off being self-righteous? Those people she burn had parents who loved them too.

 

And why is Mal being trusted to guard Belle's heart? How do they know she's not just lying to them about not working with Rumple?

 

If Rumple wants to turn Emma dark, why isn't he kidnapping her entire family while she's out of town?

 

Fanwank (because why would the show explain this to us? It's only a gaping plot hole) - Rumple must be careful what overtly evil things he does because his heart is almost charcoal. He may be able to manipulate others to do evil, but doing the evil himself will make his heart go darker faster.

[nksarmi]

If there was ever a person who embodied 'love the one you're with'  his name is Robin. 

 

I need an out clause to the pixie dust fated love stuff.  Every time I think I can't dislike Robin more, they find a new way.  I feel bad for supporters of Outlaw Queen.  I like the actor, but the character needs to go.  Its just a shame all around.

Ok so I haven't been watching and probably won't until season five, but can someone just tell me how long exactly it's been since Regina and Robin said goodbye at the end of 4A?

 

I know a few weeks passed between 4A and 4B, but usually when this show gets into full swing again, it only covers the span of a week or two. So, how long did it take Robin to get over the loss of his OTL Regina and go back to the sack with Marian?  I don't even care that she's not really Marian, one would think if he loved Regina THAT much, he would still be sleeping on the sofa with Marian for a little while right? 

 

I really wanted to like Outlaw Queen, but they are just all kinds of icky.

[kili]

And how come Robin didn't notice Marian/Zelena had that necklace, specially if they had sex? He knows what it's for because he had one just like it!

 

Fanwank - Robin did notice the necklace, but it doesn't surprise him because he gave it to her? Robin gave it to Marian for protection (so she could glamor herself if she needed to), it just didn't protect her from ending up in Regina's prison because Regina doesn't care who you are if she thinks you are helping Snow White. Marian still had it with her when she was in the prison (since the guards didn't take away Snow's ring from Emma, it would be consistent to let Marian keep her necklace) and that is how Zelena came to have it despite arriving in a new place as a bunch of dust. She got it off Marian.

 

So, while Robin was getting all jiggy with Zarian and making babies, instead of being suspicious about the necklace he was "Oh, how sweet, you still have the necklace I gave you and want to keep it on. Sexy." Robin hasn't been shown to be the sharpest arrow in the quiver anyway.

 

And Roland being with them in that tiny flat is hardly an impediment to them making whoopie - they used to live in a tent with Roland. Neal's apartment is palatial compared to that.

[YaddaYadda]

Yet, his uncle came along

 

I had no clue who this was for a moment there.  Henry has an uncle?  Neal didn't have any siblings, Emma doesn't have any...oh wait!  Do Over!  I guess my brain really did shove him off to the side!

 

I didn't hate the show last night, I thought there were some good things in it.  But the last 5 minutes and Rumple with Belle were just a whole new level of creepy.  And really, I'm starting to hate Belle so very much!  I'm not saying fall in love with Will, actually, she can use the time on her own to reflect on the mess her life is.  But here she is giving Rumple those looks.  Bitch!  He has turned people's lives upside down in a matter of weeks.  He tried to kill the Savior, her boyfriend, put fairies and an old man into a magical hat, has lied to you countless times, impersonated the new friend you made so that he can take his dagger back and is trying to push his darkness onto someone who doesn't deserve that, so Belle, you can die now, any day.  Thanks!

 

I'm a person who doesn't have a problem with rape on television (though I must say after last night's GoT, I'm extremely worried about Sansa Stark) but it has to be addressed as such.  Graham?  He was raped, Regina took his free will away from him the day she took his heart.  Robin?  Raped.  He thought he was sleeping with his wife, not Zelena.  So he did not have free will.  And now she might be knocked up though I must say, I don't believe her.  Zelena as a mother is frightening. 

 

About Lily and Emma.  I sort of feel sorry for Lily in a way, but WTF Apprentice, why would you heap all of that on her?  He clearly told her everything, including the curse and how Emma is the Savior.  I get that he feels terrible about what happened to Lily and I mean who wouldn't?  But dude, if this girl is filled with so much darkness that it makes her judgement impaired, then I don't think telling her all that stuff is the best course of action.  You have magic, why not try and set her on a better path instead where she doesn't fall in with people who are equally bad and use bad judgement and make bad choices?  I guess the good thing is that Lily hasn't murdered an entire town even with all her darkness.

 

Also, Emma ended up in jail, pregnant and alone, how is that a good thing?  I'm guessing this was the last foster home before the Nealster showed up and blew up her life.

 

I still wanna know whose magic blew up the bug's lights and summoned that bad weather over head.  Was that Emma's anger or was that Lily's darkness?

 

ETA - When Emma pulled her gun on Lily and Regina was telling her not to do it, was she channeling Hook when she was calling her Swan?

Edited April 27, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Chaos Theory]

It's funny really. I think I don't particularly care for any of the men on this show. Probably why I half ship Emma and Regina. I think both Hook and Robin are boring as hell. It's fun to ship SwanQueen on Twitter. At least Regina and Emma are interesting. They make for fun road trips and high speed chases. I would have watched the hell out of several episodes of them.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I hate when the show has characters do stupid things. For example, Emma and Regina left Storybrooke to find Lily and bring her back to Mal (okay fine, and save Robin). So once Emma actually found Lily, first she didn't say anything to her. Then she followed her out back to tell her that she knew who she was. But then she just let Lily shoo her away even though she knew that Lily was lying? The easiest way to get her interest would have been to say, "I know how weird this sounds, but I used to be a bounty hunter and your birth mother hired me to find you." Instead, she steals Lily's timesheet to get her address and then breaks into her house to snoop around. I know this is all moot since it turned out that Lily knew all about Emma, Storybrooke, etc. but the way Emma handled Lily seemed so stupid.

 

I get teenage Emma being mad at Lily but it seemed silly and overdramatic for adult Emma to say that EVERY TIME she let Lily in her life, terrible things happened. You mean the TWO TIMES in your life that you interacted with her over a decade ago? Don't get me wrong - both times negatively impacted Emma, but when you use a phrase like "every time" implies a long pattern. I know Lily is 2 for 2 with Emma, but the way she said EVERY TIME made it seem like this was an enduring friendship that lasted for longer than the few days they actually knew each other as teenagers.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Primetimer]

Can Emma find her fated frenemy without succumbing to darkness? Can the people of Storybrooke forgive each other for ancient wrongs? Can the audience stay awake for this episode?

Read the story

[Souris]

I swear, almost every show I used to enjoy is utterly imploding right now. Did the Writers Guild sign a suicide pact, or something?

 

Perhaps there's another writers' strike, but this one is a stealth one, and nobody else knows about it.

[John S]

Last week, Emma killed Cruella  This week, Regina, of all people, had to talk Emma down from killing Lily. Next week, she will probably take another step closer.

When Emma turns to the screen and has an evil smile/smirk, everyone will then know that she is THE most evil entity in Storybrooke.

 

By then, it looks like quite a few people will have stopped watching this show. Those of us who remain will have a nice intimate conversation about Once Upon A Time.

[KingOfHearts]

The reason I don't like Lily is because she's yet another "bad guy" that should be pitied. She's another character that has done wrong things but is totally vindicated because fate controlled her. Boy, did they lay the sympathy on thick. They threw the "intertwined" concept at us and we're immediately supposed to root for her friendship with Emma.. Yeah, no. I even liked Neal better with Emma, and that's saying something.

I don't care about Lily because she's whiny and basically Regina 3.0, without the snark or fashion sense. We've barely met her, yet we're supposed to show sorrow for her entire life... cuz magic! Gah, this show.

[Chicken Wing]

I just want everyone on this show to shut up and stop whining.

[TwistedandBored]

I feel for Lily. She had such a horrible childhood while Emma had the perfect childhood. It is soo fucking unfair!!! #PoorLily

 

 

Also, Regina and Zelena are soo beautiful that it is not rape if they sleep with a guy without his consent. It is just magic! 

Edited April 27, 2015 by TwistedandBored

[Rumsy4]

How bad was Lily compared to her younger version whom I couldn't stand in "Breaking Glass"?

 

Well... I kinda liked young Lily more this time. But adult Lily was blah. 

 

I got tired of Emma alternately repeating that she was responsible for Lily's horrible life, and that Lily had messed up her life each time they met. Which one is it?? 

[Phillygurl]

Personally I don't buy Lily as a villain. She hasn't actually hurt anyone yet. As a matter of fact, if the "good guys" just support her and maybe sort of I don't know apologize for taking her from her mother maybe she doesn't even have to become one. If Emma can turn dark then it follows that Lily can be light.

 

Actually, this whole turning the savior dark makes no sense to me in the first place. I mean if her parents moved mountains just to guarantee her goodness... how can she ever turn bad? Doesn't that negate everything?

 

Also, I wonder if Maleficient would have wanted Lily to have the chance to choose between good and evil or if she is only upset that she was taken away but not angry that all darkness was transferred to her.

 

These days it seems the only villains around being villainous are Rumple and Zelena. Cruella and Ursula were hardly villains at all, Maleficient really just wants her child back and/or vengeance for her being taken, as any mother should (it's just human, remember) and my hopes that hanging out with Gold and the twisted sisters would place Regina back on her evil path were totally dashed last night. So yeah, pending evil plot of turning Emma dark vs getting preggo by a man you don't even like to piss off your sister? Is this what villainy has been reduced to???

[DeLurker]

Not sure what kind of car that was that Emma stole to chase Lily in the bug, but it was an old muscle car that seemed to be running well.  That chase scene shouldn't of lasted that long (older bugs were never speedy, even brand new).  And in what world does the garage/mechanic conveniently leave the keys in a car they worked on?

 

Show seems to think that magic is real and if they tell us it is good it will be viewed that way. 

[Shanna Marie]

Love that Lily and her boyfriend knocked over a Tom Thumb. I remember Tom Thumb. Are those around anymore?

The chain is now owned by Safeway, but we have Tom Thumbs in Texas. Unless it's a different chain, I thought it was more of a regional thing that started in Dallas. I used to go to church with the founder.

 

Rumple must be careful what overtly evil things he does because his heart is almost charcoal. He may be able to manipulate others to do evil, but doing the evil himself will make his heart go darker faster.

It would seem to me that using others would actually be worse because he's hurting more people -- if he kills someone, then he's just killed a person. If he manipulates someone else into killing that person, then not only has he had the intent to kill, but he's darkened another person through his manipulation. But then again, it's this show's wonky morality, so I guess if you just manipulate others instead of having the guts to do your own dirty work, your heart can remain pure as snow. Ned Stark would not approve.

 

Actually, this whole turning the savior dark makes no sense to me in the first place. I mean if her parents moved mountains just to guarantee her goodness... how can she ever turn bad? Doesn't that negate everything?

They keep contradicting. So after the ritual, the Apprentice told the Charmings that there weren't any guarantees, and it depended on how they raised Emma. So wouldn't the same have applied to Lily? If she was raised by loving parents who guided her, she would have had the same chance to turn out light. If Emma can be turned dark now, Lily should be able to be turned light now. All the whining about Lily's sad life just sounded like a copout because her decisions were so very, very obvious. It wasn't like she kept making gray choices and they turned out badly. She had clear-cut right vs. wrong choices and always chose the wrong one. I'm still not sure this qualifies as "dark."

 

If the Apprentice told Lily everything, then why would she need a conspiracy board? That implies research, but how would she research where Snow White and Prince Charming were, and why would she need to if he told her everything? They were worried about her getting to Storybrooke with the bug and the scroll, so that would mean she knew where it was, so why hadn't she found it sooner? You'd think that if her driving force in life had been to find and get revenge on the people who ruined her life, she'd have been a lot closer to Storybrooke -- like moving to the next town over and then driving down that road daily. There was a span between the breaking of the curse and Belle casting the shield spell when it would have been possible to get there, considering that Hook sailed in from outside, Greg drove in, Neal was able to arrive and bring Tamara, and the Darling Hipsters were able to arrive. Then during Zelena's reign of terror, it seemed like anyone could come to the town. It was just the flying monkeys keeping people there. It's only been recently with Ingrid's unbroken barrier spell of contrivance that the town has been closed off again. For someone bent on revenge, Lily isn't trying very hard. She must be more in the Rumple and his Angels camp than in the Hook camp.

[Notwisconsin]

Lilly robbed people. Also, the big bad are the Sorcerer and his apprentice, who seem to be in charge of everything. The Author is on Rumple's side because he need magic ink made of a blackened heart. Once he has that, he become omnipotent again.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Notwisconsin

[KingOfHearts]

When we found that Lily knew all, I actually assumed she was part of the Home Office. How convenient was it that they didn't have to go through the trouble of getting her to believe?

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

When we found that Lily knew all, I actually assumed she was part of the Home Office. How convenient was it that they didn't have to go through the trouble of getting her to believe?

I think she didn't have a problem believing because of her age, she was into the Harry Potter books, Emma pointed out that her birth mark made her special and the Apprentice is telling her that these people exist.  If she was desperate enough, then I can see her wanting to hang on to anything and also being able to lay the blame for how fucked up her life is.

 

One of the things she told Emma is that her parents shoved her in a tree and sent her to this world.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think she didn't have a problem believing because of her age, she was into the Harry Potter books, Emma pointed out that her birth mark made her special and the Apprentice is telling her that these people exist.  If she was desperate enough, then I can see her wanting to hang on to anything and also being able to lay the blame for how fucked up her life is.

It wasn't her believing easily that I had a problem with. It was just convenient that the Apprentice had already approached her and that Evil Swan didn't need to convince at all. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

This was, again, quite bad. Nothing makes sense anymore, everything is convulted and confusing. Or just disgusting and morally reprehensible. The only way to call the Robin/Marian/Zelena situatuion is rape. And Rumbelle is another terribly problematic relationship that it seems to be back on track.
 
Hook and Captain Swan are the only thing that still makes sense. Their scene was incredibly sweet, and the closest we are going to be from an "I love you" this season.

I promise this is not me knocking Regina--but, was there something off about Parilla’s performance in the “Fate--let’s go on a road trip” office scene and in the “What happened” car scene?  She seemed stiff, and not in way that was just Regina asking for a favor she didn’t want to have to ask.

 

Regina felt off to me, like she was oddly written. She seemed uncharacteristically wise-ish and very..."chill" compared to the previous episodes, especially considering Zelena's with Robin. Like, I feel like...she was just sort of...there, for like exposition purposes or something.

That's because this wasn't Regina, but the version of Regina you can find in a (bad) Swan Queen fan fiction. The same way they had to completely change Emma's personality in Breaking Glass to fit this "Emma and Regina are BFF" bullshit, they had to change Regina's this week. And she was so out of place all the episode. All the scenes with Emma and Lily would have been better without her. I don't know if it was her wardrobe (that dress was amazing, but not the most appropriate for a road trip), but she just doesn't fit there.

Half the time I wish for this and then the other half I'm like...If the Once writers actually gave Hook something to do other than be a supportive boyfriend, they would undoubtedly ruin him.

 I've been saying this for weeks now. The only good thing of his reduced screen time is that they can't mess with him.
 

Seriously, WTF are these writers doing? I hate all of this fate stuff. I hate seeing Emma, who is generally so level-headed, just flipping out on Lily and pulling a gun on her. Yeah, it's supposed to be Emma's descent into darkness, but that's only because they've taken away her free will. Real Emma wouldn't do that, but they've turned her into a pod-person. When Regina is the voice of reason, I know something is terribly wrong.

Yeah, all this fate stuff is problematic. They are taking away the character's free will as a way of justify all of Regina's bad deeds.

[MedievalGirl]

Even as someone who still likes this show and has learned to take the good with bad I still laughed my ass off about Zelena being pregnant. I had figured it would happen and still it was hilarious. They are probably going to try to show that Emma may have as difficult a time as her parents thinking of an evil being's child as human.  Also, while children are bing kidnapped/sent away/prenatally unbalanced will Regina have to answer for kidnapping Pinocchio? Gepetto is missing out on raising his kid again. Is that just as bad as Malificent missing out on raising Lily or does Gepetto deserve it because of his deception with the wardrobe. 

[YaddaYadda]

I guess Hook called the whole "Marian" having a child who would turn out to be a mass murderer.  And if Zelena turns out to not be pregnant, then she'll probably run over one of the dwarves and there will be only 6 of them left.

 

I remember thinking after those scenes played out in the finale that I did not want to be in his head, but he was I guess close to the mark.  People should sort of start listening to him.