S04.E20: Lily

[Worsel]

Stop using Hook as background man candy. It’s getting ridiculous. 

At this point, with the way the plot is going (towards soap opera-ville) , I'll take anything good I can get including the occasional man candy.  After all it IS Hook.

[Souris]

Yes. I have resorted to writing poetry about how bad this show is. This is where I'm at.

 

 

Curio, that was brilliant! You officially put more thought into that than the writers have into 4B.

[Minneapple]

 Stop using Hook as background man candy.

Half the time I wish for this and then the other half I'm like...If the Once writers actually gave Hook something to do other than be a supportive boyfriend, they would undoubtedly ruin him.

[Souris]

Can we get Snow bringing Pregnant!Zelena creepy and foreboding cups of tea?

[ParadoxLost]

Will Zelena still be dressing like Mary Poppins?

[Rumsy4]

What even?!!! So there really was a meatloaf in the oven... unless Zelena is faking it. So A&E went there... I'm having bad flashbacks to Graham. Especially with the wolf randomly appearing again. (Incidentally, I always thought the Storybrooke wolf in S1 was Graham's packmate back in the EF. Poor wolfie... never got to reunite with Graham.)

 

Abby Ross is great as young Emma, and I liked the actress playing young Lily as well. So, Emma and Lily had a sun and moon necklace. The Sorcerer went to Lily and explained everything to her, but did nothing for Emma? That was kinda stupid, considering Lily had twice the potential for darkness, and has apparently been stewing on revenge for years. Yong Lily was bad news, and Emma was in no way responsible for what happened to her. Why even have Emma's life be entwined with some random character and pretend that neither Lily nor Emma had any choice?

 

Regina talking Emma down from executing Lily would have felt more natural as a CS scene, especially considering what Hook told Emma before she left Storybrooke. But I guess they wanted to building up the Regina/Emma friendship angle. :-p

 

That Belle/Will/Rumple scene felt rather disturbing to me. Scarlet Beauty is doomed, however. Belle had a softened look on her after Rumple shoved her heart back into her chest. Ugh...

 

The CS scene was adorable...

[Amelie06]

 

But its not rape if there`s magic involved! Or if it was a woman! Or...if A&E say so! That`s why Regina forcing Graham to have sex with her repeatedly against his will wasn't REALLY rape! Right? RIGHT?

Yes! This show's weird approach to consent when it comes to men is disturbing. I don't understand why. That Graham thing bothered me so much in the first season. It still does. It made me lose respect for the writers of the show and feel less invested overall. This baby plot is so gross. Robin seemed shocked, but I find it super weird that he instantly is like "Eh, this hot ginger witch tricked me into banging her for weeks and murdered my actual wife, but she says she's pregnant so..."

 

The writers are also repeating themselves. Anyone remember when David thought he knocked up his fake wife in season 1? Why are we repeating this again, only this time with a real pregnancy?

 

This Lily story is random. Other people have already enumerated all the things that clearly don't make sense, so I won't go into it. I just hope that they don't involve Hook in her nonsense. I don't have time for some bs story of Lily trying to steal Hook away just to hurt Emma. Also, how can Lily possibly blame anyone for her decision to rob someone? I get that she may have a predilection for darkness, but she still has to make the choice to repeatedly rob and steal from people. And approaching a school bus and taking one of the kids? Super creepy. That little girl needs long talk with her parents about stranger danger. Just because you've seen someone in a diner, doesn't mean you should go off with them, little girl!

 

I don't care about Gold and Belle. The way she is styled is odd. She seems kind of retro with her hair and makeup, but then tends to wear inappropriately short skirts with tights. All the time!

[tennisgurl]

 

Half the time I wish for this and then the other half I'm like...If the Once writers actually gave Hook something to do other than be a supportive boyfriend, they would undoubtedly ruin him.

Yeah, this is my thought too. As pissed as I am that Captain Swan and Hook aren't getting the screen time they deserve, I worry that if they did, the writers would ruin him/them. I prefer being ignored to being messed up. If Hook had more to do than be Emma`s supportive boyfriend and resident hot guy, God knows what these writers would do to him!

[DayPlayerAtKellys]

new to this board... funny that Graham is mentioned in the comments. When the show ended tonight, I thought "huh, I wonder if the Sorcerer is someone we already have met? it would have to be someone whom we think is dead so fans would whoop and holler when they learned their identiy.."  and Graham came to mind.

 

anyway, was not wild about this ep and found it tedious... but I'm feeling like that alot in 4B. I like the Author plot - it's a great MacGuffin, I was suprised they found AN author so quickly, actually... But I'm not feeling like I'm really invested in this show as much as I used to be. Fairy Tale Fatigue? I'm not a fan of Zelena (the character or the actress I'm sorry to say) so I audibly groan whenever she's on... but the "I'm pregnant" was ridiculous. Not quite Dead Dr. Shepherd level of ridiculous, but pretty close. I fully expected duh duh DUH organ cliffhanger music like from the soaps in the 50s.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm really starting to hate-watch this show. There is just nothing I find likable any more. It's so dreary and negative that I actually felt angrier after watching it, when before I used to feel encouraged by it. It's so incredibly depressing that it's devoid of the charm that got me hooked. I do want to see how bad it gets, but I'm not sure my heart can take the horribleness being done to my characters...

Edited April 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[bmoore4026]

So is Lily the Big Bad Wolf?  Is that what the show is implying?

[MaiLuna]

So many stupid stuff in this episode.

 

Maleficent talking about how could Snowing ever be forgiven for one evil thing they did? Well they have forgiven Regina and at one time Rumpel for doing much worse. And then we're supposed to believe villains have it harder.

 

How was wrong of Emma to push Lily away? She screwed everything up. Maybe Lily's life was better with Emma, but Emma's was even worse with Lily, so was she supposed to suffer to make Lily a bit happier?

 

Emma knows Lily wants revenge on her parents but brings her to Storybrooke anyway. It's like letting Ursula & Cruella come into town all over again. 

 

I don't think there's been a more telenovela moment in this show than that last scene. And how come Robin didn't notice Marian/Zelena had that necklace, specially if they had sex? He knows what it's for because he had one just like it!

 

At least we had that cute CS scene. Only scene in the whole episode where Emma smiled.

[ParadoxLost]

I'm really starting to hate-watch this show.

 

I'm still hope watching I guess. My overriding reaction was that this would be more fun if Regina hadn't suddenly become responsible for Emma not going to the dark side.  Well that and eye rolling when Zelena turned up pregnant.  I do have hope that this is the nail in Outlaw Queen coffin (and that can be read so wrong considering the tendency for crypt sex).  Regina in a relationship could be a ton more fun than this.

[Souris]

I'm really starting to hate-watch this show. There is just nothing I find likable any more. It's so dreary and negative that I actually felt angrier after watching it, when before I used to feel encouraged by it. It's so incredibly depressing that it's devoid of the charm that got me hooked. I do want to see how bad it gets, but I'm not sure my heart can take the horribleness being done to my characters...

 

Yeah, the show used to be about hope. Even when bad things happened, there was a sense that good would prevail. There was entertainment and fun. Now it's just one grim, foreboding, "gotcha!" downer after another. How is that supposed to be entertaining? The show has really lost its way.

[Curio]

And as for the “Since I met you my whole life’s been darkness?” thing--if the two of them made Lily’s life go into the toilet because of the curse thing, shouldn’t it have made rainbows and fluffy puppy wonderfulness start appearing in Emma’s? Some sort of reciprocity?

This is why none of this stupid Emma-has-all-goodness and Lily-has-all-darkness crap doesn't make a lick of sense. Lily kept describing her shitty life to Emma and all I kept thinking was, "Um, that sounds exactly like what Emma went through. Doesn't that mean Snow and Charming's ol' switcheroo didn't even work? Why are we spending so much time on this plot?"

 

You'll dislike this episode if you...

... watch this show for the main characters.

Wait, is that a real thing people do? No way!

 

The question should be: why would any of these women want Robin at all?

No kidding. Robin has the worst case of guilty-dick I've ever seen. Oh, Regina. I choose you because we had crypt sex together! No, wait, Marian I choose you because we banged after you made those delicious meat pies!

 

new to this board... [...] anyway, was not wild about this ep and found it tedious... but I'm feeling like that alot in 4B.

DayPlayerAtKellys, sounds like you'll fit right in!

 

I'm really starting to hate-watch this show. There is just nothing I find likable any more.

I'm slowly getting there, too. When Will and Belle have more screen time than Hook and when I can't even enjoy a young Emma flashback because I'm being force-fed a backstory about a random character I don't care about...there's issues.

[SzmuttyPratfall]

I gave this show way too much credit. When Lily was down on the ground, I thought she was going to beg Emma to kill her, like Faith on the first season of Angel. I thought the show was going to explore that she knows right and wrong but just can't do what's right, that she knows how damaging she is. She had it written on her face. And then nothing, just Emma going "I'm not leaving you this time."

 

The Lily actress its great but the writers are losing her potential.

[Souris]

The Lily actress its great but the writers are losing her potential.

 

So she's just like every other character, then.

[KingOfHearts]

The "intertwined fates" wasn't a bad idea, but they introduced it and laid it on too heavy in the same episode. We got a small breath of it when the Apprentice originally cast the spell, but now it seems they tried too hard. When the writers want you to know to something, you'll know it... repeatedly. Something that dictates the entire lives of two characters, one being the main protagonist, should have gotten way more setup. But like most things on this show, it's only there for the current PLOT PLOT PLOT. They'll drop it next season after it runs its course.

[YaddaYadda]

The "intertwined fates" wasn't a bad idea, but they introduced it and laid it on too heavy in the same episode.

 

But apparently, they're lives were already intertwined before any of this with the egg and the voodoo and the Author happened.

 

Also, the Sorcerer sounds like a grade A asshole.

[Rumsy4]

I was not happy with the implication that Belle needed a man to "protect her heart". The scene where Rumple gives his blessing to Will/Belle did not feel romantic to me. Maybe I'm just over Rumple and his manipulations. But apparently, Belle is not... I almost expected her to call him back.

[redfish]

I wonder if this is what Zalena thinks is her happy ending? Being a in a "marriage" with a man who is obligated to be with her now, and a baby she exploited for her schemes. Wow someone should tell her she's turning into Cora and that baby is doomed. I think the only way to break the "curse" of being fated the villain is to stop doing the thing that defined them as one (ex. vengeance, greed, selfishness), which is why I think Zalena still doesn't get it and is doomed to repeat the cycle.

 

What did that old guy hope to accomplish telling Lily about her "fate?" He seemed to only make it worse. I think the arbitrary reasons for the assignment of a bad fate/villain narrative seemed overly simplistic.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But apparently, Belle is not... I almost expected her to call him back.

Which makes me wonder if it was all a manipulation to guilt trip Belle into running back to him.

[Curio]

Okay, here's what I don't get. During Hook's goodbye conversation with Emma, he made sure to warn her about how a good person can still turn dark, and she asked what made him go from being good to bad. He said he didn't have anything left to live for. Then, the writers made sure to point out the four people in Emma's life that she lives for: her parents, Henry, and Hook. So, based on that conversation, doesn't that seem like a classic set up where the easiest way to turn Emma dark is to make her have nothing to live for?

 

So my question is -- what the hell is Rumple doing? Why doesn't he just off them all and force Emma's hand? What, is that plan too easy? He'd rather play it by chance and let Emma and Regina go on their fun little road trip because of the off chance Lily will turn Emma dark? God, TS;TW.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Curio

[ParadoxLost]

I was not happy with the implication that Belle needed a man to "protect her heart". The scene where Rumple gives his blessing to Will/Belle did not feel romantic to me. Maybe I'm just over Rumple and his manipulations. But apparently, Belle is not... I almost expected her to call him back.

 

Considering he's planning to destroy Emma, that was just more of the same.  Rumpel trying to convince Belle he recognizes what he did wrong and is trying to be a better man. 

 

At this point, I'm expecting Will's wife to show up as a surprise in the finale as a set up for 5A because they are so scrupulous in ignoring her existence.  Its really bizarre.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[TrininisaScorp]

Y'all are helping me...I adore Will and I was starting to wonder if they canon-ed that he wasn't with Ana and I missed it.  So he IS still married?!  I adore Will, but, come on, dude.  That said, Will better start barking up another tree (or his wife's tree) b/c Belle couldn't not stop staring at Rumple.  They have already dumbed Belle down so much, I just can't if after everything she ends back up with him.

 

I'm also unhappy that Hook has been relegated to supportive bf/pretty wallpaper status.  His scene with Emma was lovely, but where's badass Hook.  WTH?

 

I watch Grimm and, as above posters pointed out, the Robin/Zelena/Regina/rape baby is pretty much like one of their storylines.  Frankly, I find the Grimm one WAY better done than this bit on nonsense.  What's with brushing off the dubious consent for men on this show?! 

 

Regina/Emma roadtrip was interesting, and I theoretically like the intertwined fates of Lily and Emma.  At this point, I, however, don't have much confidence in where we are going. 

[YaddaYadda]

So my question is -- what the hell is Rumple doing? Why doesn't he just off them all and force Emma's hand?

 

Maybe that's the reason he did nothing to help Maleficent find her kid.  She had to go to Emma and Emma brings her into Storybrooke and the girl is hellbent on revenge and going after her parents, so that's half the people in Emma's life.

[TigerLynx]

I wish Hook had gone with Emma on the road trip.  That would have been fun.

[ParadoxLost]

I wish Hook had gone with Emma on the road trip.  That would have been fun.

 

I don't think anything is going to be fun until Emma is done grappling with darkness.  Its weighing the whole show down.

[retrograde]

When did Robin and Marlena even have sex? Especially long enough ago that she'd know she was pregnant? Wasn't it implied that their relationship had been totally cold until the end of last episode? And aren't they they pretty much crammed into one tiny room with Roland?

[Curio]

I wish Hook had gone with Emma on the road trip. That would have been fun.

 

The writers had the opportunity to do this when Hook, Emma, and Henry drove from New York to Storybrooke in Season 3. Unfortunately, they had no interest in doing it then, so they probably wouldn't have any interest in doing it now either.

[ParadoxLost]

When did Robin and Marian have sex? Especially long enough ago that she'd know she was pregnant? Wasn't it implied that their relationship had been totally cold until the end of last episode? And aren't they they pretty much crammed into one tiny room with Roland?

 

I think we have to assume that Robin did his usual, we are embarking on a new life and must leave the other one behind, let's have sex.  This is why its going to be problematic for Outlaw Queen to come back from this. 

 

Those of us that complain about crypt sex and Evil Queen trying to kill Marian as reasons we can't get behind Outlaw Queen are all 'see this is what we were talking about.'

 

I suspect people who liked Outlaw Queen were mostly on board for Regina's happiness and this can't be going over well.

[pcta]

I skipped the last episode and I think I'll give this one a miss as well.

[patchwork]

So this makes some sort of sense I speculate that fate has been working itself overtime on Emma. To be the Saviour her life had to suck so that Good wasn't something she took for granted and she grew stronger as a person because of the things she went through. But if Emma's life had to suck then Lily's had to be worse.

 

That's my headcanon anyway and god knows the show isn't going to bother explaining itself to me. 

 

I laughed at Zelena's pregnancy reveal (I'm a terrible person) but I feel bad for OQ shippers I can't imagine them pulling something like this on CS.  

 

Was there some miscommunication in the writer's room? Because in the last episode it really seemed like Bell was in on the heart plan but now apparently not. 

[Mathius]

This episode's flashback shot the notion that Emma pushing Lily away was a bad thing in the foot. I agreed with that notion back when "Breaking Glass" was all we had to go by (since then it was just one lie and done out of insecurity and not malice), but now this comes along and it immediately goes from a bad thing to a sensible thing. To know that Emma already did attempt to correct her earlier mistake of pushing Lily away only for Lily to so utterly botch it makes Emma's previous guilt look ridiculous.

I gave this show way too much credit. When Lily was down on the ground, I thought she was going to beg Emma to kill her, like Faith on the first season of Angel. I thought the show was going to explore that she knows right and wrong but just can't do what's right, that she knows how damaging she is. She had it written on her face.

She didn't have the tearful breakdown like Faith, but she was essentially begging for Emma to kill her. She told Emma there was only one way to end this even BEFORE the gun was pulled, and when it was she flat-out said "Do it, put me out of my misery. We both know my life isn't worth sparing." And while it wasn't explored very much (because it's this show), she was also pretty clear that she did know right and wrong but was always naturally compelled to choose wrong since she has darkness enough for two inside of her.

I don't care how unpopular an opinion it is, I like Lily. I don't like the writing around her, but I like and pity her. She can kill off both Snow and Charming for all I care.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Mathius

[william0102]

Why didn't Henry go with Emma and Regina? The town gets attacked often anyway, and with Emma and Regina leaving the town basically defenseless magically, wouldn't he be safer with them?  At least then Henry could have said some of the lines that seemed wrong coming from Regina. Henry could have been pushing Emma to trust Lily, instead of the stupid blind trust Emma decided to give Lily after apparently wanting to kill her? That whole scene after the car chase was so anti-climatic. Emma's angry enough to try to kill her "bff" but does nothing to restrain her? Emma's angry enough to use magic, but doesn't hurt Lily after the woman said she would go after Emma's family? Why were Emma and Lily even in the apartment? They could have waited outside, and that way she wouldn't know about the Wicked Witch. It's all just stupid.

[ParadoxLost]

So this makes some sort of sense I speculate that fate has been working itself overtime on Emma. To be the Saviour her life had to suck so that Good wasn't something she took for granted and she grew stronger as a person because of the things she went through. But if Emma's life had to suck then Lily's had to be worse.

 

That's my headcanon anyway and god knows the show isn't going to bother explaining itself to me. 

 

They almost sold the story to me.

 

Childhood dictated by circumstance.  But once they met and then parted Lily's life got worse and Emma's better.  When reunited Lily's life better and Emma's worse.  They part and Apprentice works to balance the scales.  Where they failed was in only balancing one side.  Why did they bring August back if not to show that Apprentice tried to even things up with Emma too and gave August instructions that really derailed Emma's life?

[placate]

I didn't like this episode.  I know shows need their product placement cash, but this show did it in a bizarre way.  I don't know what kinda diners they have in MA, but where I live you don't order advil at diners.  I think this shows that the writers are lazy, they even half-ass dialogue for product placement. 

[The Cake is a Pie]

I haven't even watched this episode yet, but oh, great a rape baby. I'm out. It's been fun while it lasted. I just dropped Grimm for this same reason and now this show is dead to me, too.

This effing show.

WHERE IS YOUR WIFE, WILL?

Edited April 27, 2015 by The Cake is a Pie

[HoodlumSheep]

Y'all are helping me...I adore Will and I was starting to wonder if they canon-ed that he wasn't with Ana and I missed it. So he IS still married?! I adore Will, but, come on, dude.

Personally, I believe that Will and Ana aren't married yet (but will be at some point). It was never stated how soon they got married after wonderland was saved.

And on another note; why did the good guys let the author go back to Rumple? Like, they finally found him last episode, but then they just apparently let him go???? I'm confused.

[Shanna Marie]

Oh God, I hate this show so much now. Just hate, hate, hate, hate.

 

If I had to hear one more person telling Lily that her sucky life isn't her fault because fate, I might have done something drastic. It's the stupidest writing idea ever to even imply that characters don't have free will because then why should we care? It's all predetermined, so there's no point in watching. And, as everyone else has pointed out, it's not like Emma's life was all sunshine, rainbows, and sparkly unicorns. She had almost the exact same life as Lily.

 

I also really, really hate the implication that Emma did anything at all wrong with Lily. Lily screwed her over repeatedly and was the ultimate Bad Influence. It was smart to push her away. I'd have thought Emma was a raging idiot if she'd fallen for any of those lines.

 

Hate anyone acting like Rumple has the slightest say about what happens with Belle's heart or what she chooses to do with it. She's going to take him back, isn't she?

 

And then there's the pregnancy ...

Perhaps they share writers with Grimm. A VERY similar situation has been recently revealed on that show as well.

I hate it there, too. It makes for very uncomfortable viewing. But as much as I hate it on Grimm, at least they are treating it there like a horrible thing. They haven't outright called what happened to Nick "rape," but it was taken very seriously and treated as a violation. I don't trust these idiots to handle it at all well.

 

Did I mishear something because I was bored and working a crossword, or did the Sorcerer say something to the effect of the Author continuing to record events in the book while trapped, but he just couldn't alter things anymore? That would at least help with that plot hole and explain how the book kept being written.

 

I swear, almost every show I used to enjoy is utterly imploding right now. Did the Writers Guild sign a suicide pact, or something?

[mjgchick]

I almost feel like the writers are forced to give Regina a love interests. Why are they writing them this horribly? Do they honestly think this angst of theirs is entertaining? The angst they gave Emma and Hook was basically her being able to trust him and trust that he wont be a piece of shit like her former baby daddy. Why are they making Outlaw Queen fans go through all of this? This is Passions levels on it's last leg of storylines.

[thuganomics85]

Oh, fuck this!  I literally was begging the show out loud (good thing I watched it alone), not to go there, but they totally did: Zelena is pregnant with Robin's child.  Good grief, show!  What is with you and this crap?  Do the writers have some kind of rape fantasy fetish, or something?  I guess that's one thing Zelena and Regina can bond over.  Why, yes: I'm not going to forget that Regina raped Christian Grey... I mean Graham.  I'm sure they would like me to, but I won't.  Granted, I wouldn't be upset if I felt like I was suppose to find all this horrible, but I have a feeling that they are going to handle it more "Eh, who doesn't want to be raped by Rebecca Mader?" about it, and treat it like a minor offense.  Again, in the magical land of Once Upon A Time: massacres and rape?  Minor offenses, that can be forgiven.  Lying, misleading and killing in self defense or to prevent someone from murdering hundreds (Snow with Cora)?  Unforgivable!!  Blacken hearts for everyone!!!

 

Besides that, I actually enjoyed the flashbacks.  The actress playing young Emma is really good, and made me feel for her conflict and disappointment, when she was betrayed again.  Same with young Lily, even though I will always think of Nicole Munoz as Christie from Defiance first.

 

Wait, so Regina didn't tell Belle about the heart plan?  The hell?!!  So, all Rumpel has to do is get her the heart back, and be all "Sorry about all the lying babe, but at least I didn't do that!", and Belle already seems to be expressing doubt.  Nice going, Regina. Christ.

 

Maleficent is regulated to guard duty, which she fails out.  Great use of Kristen Bauer, guys.  Hopefully Adult Lity (hey, Agnes Bruckner!) will move her story forward.

 

At least Will had a few amusing lines.  Missed Hook though.  I really need more of him just pointing out all the stupidity that is going on.

 

Really missing the Frozen stuff and Ingrid.  At least she didn't rape anyone.  Just served everyone ice cream, and maybe occasionally froze a person or two, heh.

[retrograde]

I don't care how unpopular an opinion it is, I like Lily. I don't like the writing around her, but I like and pity her. She can kill off both Snow and Charming for all I care.

I don't know if I "like" Lily -- if only because I haven't seen enough of her to have a strong opinion -- but I'm definitely interested to see more. I want to see what happens with her and Mal, and whether she ends up enacting revenge, and whether they keep her around. 

[Actionmage]

What, is that plan too easy?

 

I have a gun, in my room, you give me five seconds, I'll get it, I'll come back down here, BOOM, I'll blow their brains out!./Scott Evil-ing

[Curio]

Why didn't Henry go with Emma and Regina? The town gets attacked often anyway, and with Emma and Regina leaving the town basically defenseless magically, wouldn't he be safer with them?

 

They not only were putting Henry in danger, but also the entire town in danger. Emma and Regina are the only magical people powerful enough to even attempt and take Rumple on, and they both knew he was waltzing around Storybrooke, so they both leave at the same time and just take their chances with Rumple not doing any damage while they're gone? Is absolutely no one concerned Rumple might do something to the Charming clan or Hook while they're away? It's just lazy writing.

[Hook75]

4B is just so boring and bad, really bad. At least give us shirtless Hook or something to keep us watching.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Was there some miscommunication in the writer's room? Because in the last episode it really seemed like Bell was in on the heart plan but now apparently not.

Now that I think about it, she may have been in on it originally. But when Regina told her to "forget this ever happened", it probably attributed to knowing about the plan in the first place.

[Mathius]

If I had to hear one more person telling Lily that her sucky life isn't her fault because fate, I might have done something drastic. It's the stupidest writing idea ever to even imply that characters don't have free will because then why should we care? It's all predetermined, so there's no point in watching. And, as everyone else has pointed out, it's not like Emma's life was all sunshine, rainbows, and sparkly unicorns. She had almost the exact same life as Lily.

Yes but Lily's case was a special one in which her life WAS screwed with beyond her control. She explained that she had free will in her choices, but the double dose of darkness in her that wasn't her fault screws with her judgment when it comes to making those choices. The Apprentice summed it up accurately: the deck was stacked against her. Everyone naturally has a 50/50 chance for good or bad choices, except for Lily who has more like a 5/95 chance (the 95 chance being the wrong choice) due to the Charmings, Apprentice and Isaac's meddling.

Emma having almost the same life, however, needs to be pointed out because it needs to be addressed that the Charmings FAILED: their effort to give Emma a 100% chance of always making good, "heroic" choices was undone by the circumstances that happened to Emma when she was left in TLWM alone and orphaned. As the Apprentice said, darkness could always be reborn naturally in Emma if she wasn't raised right, and that is what happened.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Yes but Lily's case was a special one in which her life WAS screwed with beyond her control.

I know, and that's part of what I hate about it. I hate this plot. I hate the idea that they created a storyline in which this is actually in any way true. I loathe the very idea that anyone pretending to be a professional would create a character whose bad actions can actually be explained away as not her fault because fate.

[mjgchick]

That just doesn't sit well with me at all. If Lily murdered a whole town it's not her control because the stupid writers don't want these morons to take responsibilities for their actions? Is that what this whole storyline is about? That's just terribly dull writing and the only people I sympathize with is us the audience.

 

I'm even more mad that they threw two established characters under the bus for this nobody. Fuck that.

Edited April 27, 2015 by mjgchick