S30.E10: Bring The Popcorn

[ElleryAnne]

It's interesting how a cluster of three people are not considered bullies... but one man next to a highly educated woman is.

 

 

The cluster of three people weren't bullying him.  They were hoping to create a crack in the big alliance by stirring doubt about the in-game honesty of one of the members of that alliance.  Talking about strategy in a game is not bullying.  And if Will (or anyone else) had decided to retaliate by trying to crack their 3-person alliance or stir doubt in any of M/J/S's honesty/loyalty/etc. within the game, that would have been fine.  Even if Will had only gone so far as to say she was useless in the game (or had no friends in the game, or couldn't be trusted by her alliance, etc.) that would have been fine.  But he didn't stop there.  He left the "world" of the game and targeted what he perceived to be Shirin's vulnerabilities in real life.

 

The education levels of the people involved is irrelevant.  

[Caelicola]

If three of your co-workers talk untrue shit about you to the other co-workers... which could ultimately result in your being terminated.  Would you consider that bullying or fair play?

Sorry, I've been a bystander in all of this because I haven't watched the episodes, just read everyone's opinions and lurked like a creepy creeper cause I'm not that into the show anymore but I'm still interested in reading how people react to it; so, interjecting here to say that sure, if that happened I'd consider it mobbing, if not outright bullying.

But they're not co-workers talking shit to other co-workers, they're adversaries in a game where one of your weapons is talking shit about other people to your other adversaries, to get them to vote out your opponents before they vote you out. The point of the whole game is "terminating" the other players.

So, it's not at all different than Tyson making shit up about Aras in blood vs water, and nobody accused him of bullying; or Boston Rob telling Big Tom that Rupert was throwing him under the bus in All Stars (dating myself a bit, here...). These are all game moves, and they're all fair play.

Telling someone essentially "you suck, your life sucks because you suck and nobody likes you" is not a game move, it's a shitty human move.

[hyukx3]

can you win a million dollars if u spread lies about your coworker???

[ProfCrash]

No they were playing the game. They speculated Will was hoarding food. If they could get others to believe them maybe they could flip the vote. They didn't say Will is a liar outside the game. They didn't say Will hoards beef jerky at his house. They didn't say Will hides money from his wife. They said Will was keeping food when he was sharing it with everyone in the game. They were challenging game play. No different then Mike challenging Rodney after overhearing the discussion to vote out Mike. No different then challenging Tony on his promises. No different then Woo stealing the idol clue. Not bullying, challenging game play.

Will's response was to show evetyone the ice chest and the food and say he did share it. He was upset that they questioned him in the game. Fair game. No issues there. Then he told Shirin that no one loved her outside the game loved her and that she was soulless.

There was plenty of outrage over Vince's behavior. Thete was anger over Mike's demanding thanks for his work but never thanking the women for their work. There was anger at Lindsey for her god comment. There was anger at Dan for his treatment of Sierra and Shirin. There was outrage over Dan's talking head regarding slapping Shirin. Was all that anger misplaced because Vince was bullied when Jenn was hanging out with Joe? Or was Mike bullied when the women called him on his double standard? Was Dan bullied when Sierra was upset with the Lindsey vote?

Game play is game play. Richard and Max strutting around nude to make people uncomfortable is game play. Richard rubbing against Sue in a challenge naked is harrasment. Will calling out Shirin, Mike, and Jenn over speculation is game play. Will singaling out Shirin and calling her soulless is bullying.

[Sentient Meat]

The cluster of three people weren't bullying him.  They were hoping to create a crack in the big alliance by stirring doubt about the in-game honesty of one of the members of that alliance.  Talking about strategy in a game is not bullying.  And if Will (or anyone else) had decided to retaliate by trying to crack their 3-person alliance or stir doubt in any of M/J/S's honesty/loyalty/etc. within the game, that would have been fine.  Even if Will had only gone so far as to say she was useless in the game (or had no friends in the game, or couldn't be trusted by her alliance, etc.) that would have been fine.  But he didn't stop there.  He left the "world" of the game and targeted what he perceived to be Shirin's vulnerabilities in real life.

 

The education levels of the people involved is irrelevant.  

 

I don't remember the part where they came up with an organized plan to break up the alliance, I just remember the three laying on a rock saying how they were sure Will kept the good parts and gave them the leftovers.

 

Look, no argument that once Will started with the personal attacks that it was cringeworthy and cost him any chance at the million.

 

I just feel that those 3 also hold some blame in the situation.

 

The education levels hold some relevance because this discussion is about bullying and in an environment where you can't use physical might... then only mental superiority becomes relevant and it seems more difficult to bully someone that is weaker than you.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Sentient Meat

[hyukx3]

u wanna blame them for playing survivor, spreading lies, and trying to win a million dollars? right

 

on the other hand, was will playing survivor, or was he just a vile human being?

Edited April 24, 2015 by hyukx3

[Wings]

I am not one to get my tail in a knot over reality TV personalities usually.  I have though, big time.  It happens but it is rare.  I wanted to leap through my screen and slap the shit out of June on BB.   Not at all rational but she got me.  I vowed to never get the feeds again.  I will because I have said that before.   

 

Will's rant was so ridiculous that it would have been wise for Shirin to let that roll of her back.  That would have done him in.  I get it that the social scene out there is not the norm and emotions are on the surface.  

 

Shirin, this is to you. Do not let your past dictate who you are today.  I can match your past and raise you one.  You only have today, the past is over and you are creating your future NOW.  Let it the fuck go. I know of what I speak.

[Sentient Meat]

u wanna blame them for playing survivor, spreading lies, and trying to win a million dollars? right

 

on the other hand, was will playing survivor, or was he just a vile human being?

Will is at best a hypocritical unpleasant human being and at worst a vile one... however, Shirin is no angel.

 

In answer to your original question a few replies back... in the real world spreading lies against your co-workers even for a million dollars is not excusable.

 

In Survivor lying is okay if it directly involves game strategy as opposed to just making someone feel bad.  I felt that Will's abuse crossed the line, but I also felt that so did Jenn/Mike/Shirin's abuse did to a lesser degree.  The fact that one is acknowledged and the other one isn't is why I've wasted so much time replying here.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Sentient Meat

[BigRedCheese]

 

it would have been wise for Shirin to let that roll of her back.

 

She did at first, she even said she believed him, but he just wouldn't stop, he just got louder, crazier, and even more unhinged.

[Miss Scarlet]

In Jenn's RHAP interview, she said that Will pulled her aside and said he didn't have a problem with her, he likes her. It seems he just used this as an excuse to berate somebody he already didn't like. I don't think I've ever gone from liking somebody to despising somebody so quickly, I even felt bad for him when Mike was doubting him about the food, but what he did in response was just vile and disgusting.

Wow. That is appalling. I have no words for that. Between that and his "keep her in the game so she'll suffer" I'm sort of wondering if Will is kind of a sociopath. 

 

This thread is already at 9 pages. Crap, Probst will use the number of responses to episodes like these to justify his opinions that they're so "amazing" "best ever". Too bad never ventures into to see that the content is all about how horrified and uncomfortable we all were.

[ProfCrash]

 

In answer to your original question a few replies back... in the real world spreading lies against your co-workers even for a million dollars is not excusable.

 

.

In the real world you don't vote people out of the office and use hidden idols to protect yourself from bad reviews. You don't participate in challenges to see which office will fire someone.

Survivor is not the real world. People lie. Regularly. It is part of playing the game.

[hyukx3]

mike, jenn, shirin abused will. what??

 

what abuse??? all the episode showed was that mike was suspecting will about not seeing the box to jenn and shirin. what edit did the episode actually showed about abuse towards will. next scene, u have shirin talking about food, what is that edit, for like just a few seconds, then u got a scene where tyler told will its them 3. of course, its interesting that the edit didnt show how tyler knows its those 3.

 

so what actually did u see, or did u just have a picture in your head where those 3 bitching like mean girls to everybody?

Edited April 24, 2015 by hyukx3

[Guest]

If you're talking about the end of the episode, she said Sierra, not Shirin. 

 

No, it was toward the end of the scene of Shirin, Mike and Jenn sitting around commiserating over it.  I deleted the episode, though, and didn't rewind to listen twice or confirm via close captions or anything so I could well be wrong.  But I thought she was again ranting about who she can't stand and Shirin was on the list.  

[LanceM]

I hope Shirin has a lot of money...

 

https://twitter.com/theshirin/status/591318602852208640

[Miss Scarlet]

It's possible that one day Will could have marital or familial problems. I wonder what he'd think of the logic that these problems are because he is a horrible, soulless person. Well...except that it's Will, so those probably would be the actual reasons.

[ElleryAnne]

I don't remember the part where they came up with an organized plan to break up the alliance, I just remember the three laying on a rock saying how they were sure Will kept the good parts and gave them the leftovers.

 

 

 It's absolutely acceptable and expected in Survivor that players will go off in groups and talk about who's doing what within the game, and how to use anything in-game (events, circumstances, players and behaviors) to further one's own game, even though it occurs at the expense of someone else's game.  They know that going into it, and they all use strategy against each other at some point. It doesn't constitute bullying.  

 

 

The education levels hold some relevance because this discussion is about bullying and in an environment where you can't use physical might... then only mental superiority becomes relevant and it seems more difficult to bully someone that is weaker than you.

 

 

I disagree.  There are other kinds of "might" besides physical strength and education.  There's pecking order (likely an advantage for Will since Shirin's alliance seems headed for a Pagonging), popularity (definitely advantage to Will, since most of the others don't like Shirin and they watched it happen),  mental/emotional strength (probably a draw overall but seemed to favor Will in that moment since Shirin was shaken to the point of tears),  material wealth (probably irrelevant here, unless Will's alliance is able to withhold the extra food from Shirin), etc.  Education level is probably one of the least useful advantages to possess in Survivor.  

Edited April 24, 2015 by ElleryAnne

[Sentient Meat]

mike, jenn, shirin abused will. what??

 

what abuse??? all the episode showed was that mike was suspecting will about not seeing the box to jenn and shirin. what edit did the episode actually showed about abuse towards will. next scene, u have shirin talking about food, what is that edit, for like just a few seconds, then u got a scene where tyler told will its them 3. of course, its interesting that the edit didnt show how tyler knows its those 3.

 

so what actually did u see, or did u just have a picture in your head where those 3 bitching like mean girls to everybody?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cPseq5bxWY

[Alapaki]

Not this time. Jeff never said they couldn't share money. I watched that particular part twice. He said "No sharing of items"   Generally, Jeff will go

 

You can not share money

you can not share items

 

it threw me.

I was wondering about that too. Because when Mike backed out of the deal to buy the loved-ones notes, all Carolyn, Tyler and Dan had to do was pool their money to outbid Mike. For that matter, I though Mike should've gone to Dan pre-auction, told him what he'd heard Rodney say, and make a deal to pool money to deny the advantage to Carolyn or Tyler.

The fact that neither of those things happened made me wonder if pooling money was prohibited

[hyukx3]

huh?? nice video. so did they abuse will or not?

[Cutty]

These people are the shittiest human beings to grace my television set since the racists from Big Brother.

[Daisy]

I was wondering about that too. Because when Mike backed out of the deal to buy the loved-ones notes, all Carolyn, Tyler and Dan had to do was pool their money to outbid Mike. For that matter, I though Mike should've gone to Dan pre-auction, told him what he'd heard Rodney say, and make a deal to pool money to deny the advantage to Carolyn or Tyler.

The fact that neither of those things happened made me wonder if pooling money was prohibited

 

Well again, usually you can't. (like I think the last time you were allowed to share money in an auction was during the early teen Survivor years). I am wondering if it was cut (or Jeff didn't think about it, thought he said it, whatever), or they even attempted it, and Jeff said no. 

 

I think honestly (especially because with  two big fans in Dan and Shirin) they probably just assumed they could not get the advantage so did not try (or again, something got cut out). Or. it just happened so fast as like we saw.

 

Mike tried his "imma not gonna do this." move, Carolyn freaked out, asked for a refund, Mike went all "Oh it's against my nature." and then on to the advantage. 

[pennben]

Well, now that Sierra has explained everything.....wait, what?!

[Miss Scarlet]

 

Boy...Jeff. Shirin pours her heart out at tribal...he nods his head...moves on like  nothing happened.

But he's totally fine with spending most of tribal laughing and basically air high-fiving misogynists and reducing the women playing the game to the girlfriends of the alpha males he loves so much. Barf

 

It's also kind of hilarious that he can't handle any meaningful topics at tribal, and is like "okay, see ya later!" instead of discussing them since he seems to think he's a psychiatrist and tribal is really a group counselling session. He also erroneously believes that he's incredibly insightful and introspective. 

 

 

Will could be angry all he wanted, it's NEVER okay to verbally abuse ANYone. I'm liking that Shirin raised her hand and kept Will from receiving his letters...it was a little retribution but not enough - the ugly things he said to her will remain with her for the rest of her life

That's a good point about these things remaining with her for the rest of her life. Even thought I'm sure she knows that they're utter bullshit, I'm sure she'll think about them from time to time and that they'll always bother her. It is so hard to forget something like this.

 

It is loathsome that Will tried to use his religious to abuse Shirin and that he's so self-righteous that he basically whatever he's saying is true because he's a "man of God" and that he can abuse people and still be a good person because he is religious. Wooooow.

 

The attacks he made were so disgusting and awful and I believe that even going as far as saying "no one in the game likes you" would have been taking it too far. People who do that are just gross and weak. They can't stand on their own either because they're sadistic and love having other people feel hated, alone and isolated or maybe because some small part of them knows what they're doing is bullshit, so they feel better if they're not the only one. Like they can justify their unfair hatred of someone by saying "well, everyone else feels the same way". I have had people vent to me about someone else they don't like and, even if I've said I disagreed with them, they have said "I want to go to him/her how much I hate him/her. I'm going to tell them that you agree with me. You'll back me up right?" and I always say "F no. If you feel that way tell them how you, and you alone, feel. There is no need to gang up on them just so that they feel crappy". God I hate bullies.

 

His diatribe at tribal that Shirin always plays the victim was so awful. Rightfully stating that you were a victim of domestic violence and are now a victim of being verbally assaulted by a crazy person is not "playing the victim". It is stating a fact. And I hate how perpetrators use this "playing the victim card" to try and justify what they've done and distract people from their horrendous behaviour. 

 

And everyone who stood by and watched this happen should be ashamed of themselves. I know it's not good gameplay to speak out when other people are fighting, but all they had to say was a simple "Will, lay off of Shirin". I applaud Mike for doing something, but he could have said a bit more than "you don't have to stand here and get attacked" to Shirin. He could have told Will that he was wrong and inappropriate. And sometimes you need to take a stand, even if it's not the best move for your social game. As a woman I would have been a little afraid to call him out because the way he was getting so heated and getting in Shirin's face would seriously make me worried about someone getting smacked. But I'm not sure if that had anything to do with why Sierra and Carolyn chose not to intervene.

Edited April 24, 2015 by wudpixie

[Bazinga]

But nobody intentionally lied about Will or even lied at all.  They speculated and, as it turns out, were wrong.  He was given the option to hide food from the others but did not.  They didn't know the truth and say the opposite.  They assumed he did hold back food based on the amount of food offered up and the show itself having done this type of thing in past seasons, this season and, actually, in this situation, too.  They were wrong but there was no lying.  They also have no reason to trust Will's integrity in that his integrity is questionable in this game as he has already flipped on his original alliance.  They have no reason to trust Will as not someone who would deceive them.  They certainly don't know him in real life but only in this game situation.  His reaction to that isolated assumption/accusation was that his integrity was being questioned and to attack one of three accusers, alone, on a personal level when all he had the right to do was respond by denying and not going overboard with the outrage as their accusation was certainly reasonable and not personal.  He also attacked the most outcast of the three accusers; the one he has a physical advantage over (not Mike) and the socially awkward one, not the one who would be better able to defend herself with a big mouth (Jenn) and also not all three of them together who could protect each other.  

 

Will's response was also about Shirin's life outside the game, which he doesn't know about and has no right saying anything about.  He made it personal about her life outside the game and has no right to go there.  And beyond just being personal he went very nasty and low in said personal attacks.

 

Carolyn and Sierra (who has been on the other side of an attack and has complained about it in the past) didn't intervene because Shirin is not on their "side" and it wasn't them or someone they liked being attacked.  They had no motivation to intervene as it wasn't them personally or their side or someone they cared about.  Their motivation to protect Shirin from a personal attack could have been basic human decency and a female bond but it wasn't.  Their non-response says something about them.  You know Jenn, like her or not, even if she were not directly involved, would have jumped in to defend someone else being attacked.

 

Oh, Mike, why couldn't you have joined with Joe, Hali, Jenn and Shirin earlier?  Things would be so much better without certain people being in power and steamrolling to the end.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Bazinga

[Miss Scarlet]

I watched the episode hours ago and I am still upset by what I saw. I have made several posts about Will and I am running out of words to describe his behaviour. Disgusting, vile, reprehensible, appalling, horrifying, terrible etc. Or to quote Rodney - "that is putrid, man". 

 

 

He also attacked the most outcast of the three accusers; the one he has a physical advantage over (not Mike) and not the one who would be better able to defend herself with a big mouth (Jenn) and also not all three of them together who could protect each other.

Absolutely.

 

I am glad that Mike stepped in. I have to say, I am not looking forward to Probst slobbering over how "chivalrous" this move was and how it makes Mike an amazing human being who is the best thing to come out of Texas since Colby. 

[LadyChatts]

First Colton spoke up and called Dan despicable.  Now Rocky is saying that Will crossed a line with his rant.  Seriously, if Fairplay is the next to speak up and say these people are doing things even he wouldn't stoop to, you know it's a bad season.  Colton is still the king of the most rotten people to ever grace the Survivor show, but Will has bumped Dan from second place in line.  I've seen Sierra, and especially Tyler and Carolyn are under attack on twitter over that.  Good.  They deserve it.  There's not wanting to draw attention to yourself in the game, and doing what's right.  

 

Judging by the conversation in this thread and on other forums, I am sure that Jeff and those at CBS are grinning from ear to ear over how much controversy the worst cast in history is causing.  Maybe that's what Jeff really meant; the best-worst cast ever.  People are either misogynistic, bullies, or those that stand by and do nothing.  If Shirin makes the jury, I hope she does lay into any of Sierra, Tyler, Carolyn, Dan, and Will for either belitting and berating her so horribly, or for just standing there and doing nothing.  I do notice that aside from Shirin, Carolyn, and Tyler, everyone else is pretty silent on twitter today.  In fact it seems to be pretty quiet surrounding the issue.  And I guess Will and Jeff share the same definition of "best" because I would hardly call that the best TC ever last night.  How is Will still here?  Why was he cast in the first place?  They really couldn't find anyone else on this planet or at a beach somewhere that would have fit the no collar vibe?

[hincandenza]

It's interesting how a cluster of three people are not considered bullies... but one man next to a highly educated woman is.  These three weren't targeting the majority alliance, they were just picking on Will who happens to be the weakest in his alliance in the same way that Shirin is the weakest in hers.  There is absolutely no chance of physical violence because of security so if anyone has an advantage it is the highly educated person who can manipulate and argue much better than the youtube celebrity.  And by the looks of things Shirin won because everyone hates Will and he may have destroyed his livelihood.

 

Hopefully Will will learn from this, and be able to recover from the consequences of his behavior.  But I'm still struggling to see how a scenario where real physical danger is neutralized how the more intelligent person playing against a less educated person is the weaker person in this situation.

 

Ah.  I get it now.

 

I couldn't understand it, all day when I'd poke my head back to read more comments.  I couldn't grasp the argument of those few energetic defenders of Will's behavior.  I couldn't understand why, when repeatedly people would note that Shirin didn't even say much, that it was Will and Jenn who brought it up, and Tyler who told Will, these commenters would continue to suggest Shirin was equally guilty, equally mean, equally vicious.  I couldn't understand this inability to separate gameplay with being an actual human being.  I mean, you don't punch someone in a game of poker just because they bluffed, so how could several people seriously not understand the ethics and boundaries involved?  How could they not tell the difference between questioning someone's truthfulness- in a game that has spent THIRTY SEASONS showing us people lying strategically as a well-accepted and critical part of the game- and attacking someone on a personal level with the singular goal of making them hurt emotionally?

 

But nope, I get it now.  it was never about the actual TV show we watched, was it?

 

I believe that just like the Survivors there, that in America at large there is a profound hatred and distrust of anyone even remotely bright. People like Dan, Rodney, Will, I think in some part of their selves they know the score; they know that here, they can gang up on anyone smart or different, because it's the only glimpse of power or control they'll have in a world that will soon automate their blue collared asses out of a job.

 

You don't need to be smart or an Ivy-league grad to be a decent human being.  Maybe it's how I was raised (minister father) but I think that the only real measure of someone is how they treat others; everything else from their body or their talent and gifts or their wealth is often almost completely out of their control.  I can't play in the NBA, I'll never be a male model, I'll never be famous or super-rich or popular or celebrated. 

 

But I can choose to be kind, or to be cruel.  Will made his choices, and now he's living with them- in game and out.

[Sentient Meat]

Ah.  I get it now.

 

I couldn't understand it, all day when I'd poke my head back to read more comments.  I couldn't grasp the argument of those few energetic defenders of Will's behavior.  I couldn't understand why, when repeatedly people would note that Shirin didn't even say much, that it was Will and Jenn who brought it up, and Tyler who told Will, these commenters would continue to suggest Shirin was equally guilty, equally mean, equally vicious.  I couldn't understand this inability to separate gameplay with being an actual human being.  I mean, you don't punch someone in a game of poker just because they bluffed, so how could several people seriously not understand the ethics and boundaries involved?  How could they not tell the difference between questioning someone's truthfulness- in a game that has spent THIRTY SEASONS showing us people lying strategically as a well-accepted and critical part of the game- and attacking someone on a personal level with the singular goal of making them hurt emotionally?

 

But nope, I get it now.  it was never about the actual TV show we watched, was it?

 

I believe that just like the Survivors there, that in America at large there is a profound hatred and distrust of anyone even remotely bright. People like Dan, Rodney, Will, I think in some part of their selves they know the score; they know that here, they can gang up on anyone smart or different, because it's the only glimpse of power or control they'll have in a world that will soon automate their blue collared asses out of a job.

 

You don't need to be smart or an Ivy-league grad to be a decent human being.  Maybe it's how I was raised (minister father) but I think that the only real measure of someone is how they treat others; everything else from their body or their talent and gifts or their wealth is often almost completely out of their control.  I can't play in the NBA, I'll never be a male model, I'll never be famous or super-rich or popular or celebrated. 

 

But I can choose to be kind, or to be cruel.  Will made his choices, and now he's living with them- in game and out.

 

Nope, people are pointing out Will's size as a relevant issue in bullying and I simply countered that in a game where physical bullying is not allowed that mental acuity would be more of an advantage.  Someone described Will as a 350 lb giant and Shirin as a helpless tiny woman when having strong verbal skills is a more powerful weapon than strength which cannot be used against someone except in challenges.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Sentient Meat

[momlyd]

Hincandenza, it seems the class warfare on the show is not limited to the screen, then?

I have been giving Will supporters the benefit of the doubt - they are simply kind souls tying themselves in knots to be even handed, I said to myself.

I suspect the truth is, as ever, somewhere in the middle.

[LadyChatts]

I wish Jeff wouldn't even touch on this or Dan's antics at the reunion.  Not that Shirin doesn't have the right to have her voice heard, but I don't want to give Will or Dan or anyone standing by the chance to defend themselves and tell their side, and give some one sided apology just because.  I was defending Will last night, sort of, but having time to process it, reading Jenn's interviews, and watching the extra vids, Shirin didn't deserve that.  Will was just being an ass.

[Sentient Meat]

Hincandenza, it seems the class warfare on the show is not limited to the screen, then?

I have been giving Will supporters the benefit of the doubt - they are simply kind souls tying themselves in knots to be even handed, I said to myself.

I suspect the truth is, as ever, somewhere in the middle.

I'm not a Will supporter... I think he's a bad player and a jerk.

I simply think the masses are being one sided.

 

I also believe the truth to be somewhere in the middle.

[ozlsn]

In Jenn's RHAP interview, she said that Will pulled her aside and said he didn't have a problem with her, he likes her. It seems he just used this as an excuse to berate somebody he already didn't like.

 

That was my strong impression from the scene too.  Will was angry, but if it had been Mike or Jenn that he saw first he wouldn't have gone over the top the way he did.  He already doesn't like Shirin, and so what started off as being angry (probably more because he felt like he'd done a nice thing and was being harrassed for it more than feeling that it undermined his gameplay ... what little of it we've seen) turned into tearing someone he doesn't like down.  Even then he could have retrieved it if he'd admitted that he'd seen red, lost it, gone too far and then apologised for it.

 

But no, instead we get his tribal council reply, where he tries to justify everything he previously said. 

 

I get that Shirrin is annoying - the squee-out before the immunity challenge a couple of episodes ago irritated me (and that was what, 2 minutes worth?) and I suspect she's someone who is very irritating to live with, particularly under the conditions they're in.  Even so Will's response to her was way over the line of personal attack. 

[Guest]

I think you're probably right.  If the people who were there are suggesting on social media that Shirin egged him on, I believe it.  I think the show is bending over backwards to show Shirin as the victim and Mike as the all-American hero, to serve their winner's edit.  

 

Not that I like Will or excuse it at all.  I'm fine with seeing him get roasted today.  His whole deal bugged me from day one.  He was in a scripted gas station skit on a late night tv show that people thought was real, so now he fancies himself a 'youtube sensation' and wants to act?  He has whatever the opposite of x factor is.  There are people I can't peel my eyes away from and others I can't bear to watch.  That's not anti-fat or racial.  It's because he's dull and mopey and has no charisma and his rare attempts at humor even fall flat.  

 

I feel like they're really scraping bottom lately in casting.  I almost wish they'd stick to recruits.  Then make them sit and watch several seasons so they understand the game.  

[backformore]

I think you're probably right.  If the people who were there are suggesting on social media that Shirin egged him on, I believe it.  I think the show is bending over backwards to show Shirin as the victim and Mike as the all-American hero, to serve their winner's edit.  

 

Not that I like Will or excuse it at all.  I'm fine with seeing him get roasted today.  His whole deal bugged me from day one.  He was in a scripted gas station skit on a late night tv show that people thought was real, so now he fancies himself a 'youtube sensation' and wants to act?  He has whatever the opposite of x factor is.  There are people I can't peel my eyes away from and others I can't bear to watch.  That's not anti-fat or racial.  It's because he's dull and mopey and has no charisma and his rare attempts at humor even fall flat.  

 

I feel like they're really scraping bottom lately in casting.  I almost wish they'd stick to recruits.  Then make them sit and watch several seasons so they understand the game.  

Right.  And many posters are saying that Shirin didn't do anything to deserve will's rant, that she never verbally attacked him.   I would want that to be changed to "we never SAW her verbally attack him, so we don't know if she did or not." 

Yes, "editing"  is used as an excuse.  Will IS responsible for his behavior, and he was wrong.   But, it's not fair to say that Shirin never said anything vicious to him, that she didn't provoke the attack in some way - because she could have.  And social media posts from contestants indicate that what was shown was one-sided. 

 

I'm not defending Will in any way.  He's an ass, as far as I'm concerned.  But Shirin might have said something equally bad to provoke what we saw.  And frankly, the rest of them are assess too.  I don't see anybody I LIKE, it's just varying degrees of dislike. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by backformore

[LadyChatts]

I think you're probably right.  If the people who were there are suggesting on social media that Shirin egged him on, I believe it.  I think the show is bending over backwards to show Shirin as the victim and Mike as the all-American hero, to serve their winner's edit.  

 

Not that I like Will or excuse it at all.  I'm fine with seeing him get roasted today.  His whole deal bugged me from day one.  He was in a scripted gas station skit on a late night tv show that people thought was real, so now he fancies himself a 'youtube sensation' and wants to act?  He has whatever the opposite of x factor is.  There are people I can't peel my eyes away from and others I can't bear to watch.  That's not anti-fat or racial.  It's because he's dull and mopey and has no charisma and his rare attempts at humor even fall flat.  

 

I feel like they're really scraping bottom lately in casting.  I almost wish they'd stick to recruits.  Then make them sit and watch several seasons so they understand the game.  

 

I love Survivor, but I think it's why I prefer Big Brother from an editing stand point.  TPTB and the contestants can't hide behind a bad edit or good edit argument.  This season, editing is all over the place.  You get a better idea what's going on from the extra vids and interviews.  I can see why Jenn wanted out.  Frankly, though I'd prefer her, Joe, and Hali in the game, they dodged a bullet not having to be associated with this garbage anymore.  I don't know what the case is with Will vs Shirin, but even though I feel Will is more to blame, I can agree to disagree and accept that the truth is probably in the middle.  Some people were thinking that was what Tyler was alluding to on twitter, then he got attacked since that appeared he was defending Will.  Who knows.  It'll get addressed at the reunion, and I'm sure it'll be even murkier. 

 

I agree about the casting.  I appreciate fandom, but this season is a good example why casting so-called die hard fans isn't always a good idea.  Jenn mentioned the lack of strategic play going on.  You've got those trying to play characters.  The "flippers never win" argument.  And I wonder if that's why some are lying low and not making any moves or ruffling feathers.  I know Survivor is like a cult, but even off the show, some of the castaways seem a little too star struck and obsessed with being part of the "in crowd" now.  

Edited April 24, 2015 by LadyChatts

[SlackerInc]

Mike's moves in this episode seem very solid when viewed through the prism of trying to advance to day 39. But they were much less solid in terms of potential jury management. I think he belatedly realized that both times.

 

Mike tried his "imma not gonna do this." move, Carolyn freaked out, asked for a refund, Mike went all "Oh it's against my nature." and then on to the advantage. 

 

I'm still curious as to how Jeff was going to rule on that refund.  No dice, right?

 

Oh, Mike, why couldn't you have joined with Joe, Hali, Jenn and Shirin earlier?  Things would be so much better without certain people being in power and steamrolling to the end.

 

No doubt.  I thought there was still time early in the episode, but apparently not.  Hard to understand what Sierra is thinking.

 

I think hincandenza is onto something.  The way Shirin is being treated is so "Lord of the Flies", and wasn't the kid who got targeted first there also more of a bookworm than the rest?  It appears that Survivor gives nerdy people like Cochran and Max and Shirin the "opportunity" to give up their real-world gains and go back to middle school and get bullied.  (There is another example like that whose name escapes me: an Asian-American woman who seemed a bland personality but nice, who was inexplicably treated as a pariah, maybe five or six seasons ago.)

[ProfCrash]

I hope Shirin has a lot of money...

 

https://twitter.com/theshirin/status/591318602852208640

That is awesome. For people who don't want to look, Shirin is donating $100 for every act of misogyny on this season of Survivor. heheheheh 

 

As for the tweets by cast mates, I have not seen them yet so I cannot comment. I would also suggest that after spending 39 days with a person, and everyone on the jury played with these folks the entire game, you do form a certain bond. If they were friends with Will through out the game there is going to be a desire to protect him after the episode. So I am going to take those with a grain of salt.

 

Richard Hatch touches on the Will/Shirin argument in the first 10 minutes of Rob Has a Podcast. He tackles it from a game element, that it was not strategic behavior and how the elements lead to the unleashing of your raw emotions. I am going to trust the folks who played the game in terms of what happens when you are out there.

 

I don't doubt that Shirin egged Will on. Shirin stirs the pot a bit, she is no Kass but she has been shown to poke people. We saw her poke at Joaquin. We saw her in some ways encourage Dan. She doesn't get up and walk away. That said, short of saying that Will was an obvious murderer in the real world or something really awful about Will, Shirin did not deserve the personal attacks she absorbed. Just like Kass didn't deserve Tony's tirade two seasons ago. There are lines that should not be crossed and Will crossed them this week. Dan has crossed them several times. Vince crossed them in his short time on the game.

 

That is why this season is off of my DVR. There are some behaviors that I can say I don't like but I get that they are good game play. The Fairplay lie about his dead grandma is a great example. It was kind of brilliant. Then there are the behaviors that are so outside of game play that they make me walk away from watching. Russell Hantz and his bullying. Brandon Hantz and his psychological issues. Colton with his racist, bullying comments. This season has had three men who crossed some serious lines and one man, Mike, who has made comments that are at best sexist. Mike's actions have made me think that his comments regarding how to talk to women and his over looking the work that Sierra, Lindsey, and Kelly were doing around camp are not reflective of his entirely accurate. He is the one person who has stepped in to try and stop the bullying twice. He was there to comfort Shirin in a sincere manner after the Will attack.

[Jobiska]

There are different kinds of intelligence, and the fact that Shirin probably does pretty well on IQ tests and obviously has parlayed her skills into a successful career that suits her does not in any way mean she therefore has a built-in verbal advantage over someone in an emotionally charged argument.  I'm pretty smart too and all my verbal skills which I can use to craft clever Facebook posts or chat with my friends (or do my job well when I was in the working world) would go right out the window if someone attacked me like that.  I would not be able to access those skills I have on paper, and I'd fall apart way worse than Shirin would.  And I don't even have as painful a background as Shirin had.

It's kind of like saying "well, this guy has a dagger, but this other guy has a gun, so don't criticize the guy with a dagger for stabbing the other guy, because he had better resources at his disposal all along" while ignoring the fact that the other guy's gun is locked up in his house 10 miles away.

Shirin's advantages, such as they are, were not accessible to her.  They are locked up 10 miles away, if you will.  If she can't even use them to fix her social skills and correct course earlier on, during day-to-day boring ol' camp life (because it's been made clear to her people don't like her for a while now) how in the world can she access them while under fire?

And nobody's shared a link to Will's IQ test, so he may very well be quite intelligent on paper as well.  Assuming he's got a huge disadvantage there is...perturbing to me.  He certainly had better access to his verbal skills...words came spewing forth quickly, but carefully designed to damage.   Now that's a verbal skill...not a laudable one...but hey. 

[Special K]

Gameplay would be... hey let's make up this narrative about how Will lied about the food so we can undermine his position in the alliance.

 

But this was clearly a personal attack on his character and how the tribe perceived him in real life.  This is why I personally interpreted it as bullying.

 

What you describe in your first sentence is slander.  And boy does Survivor have a storied history of slander!  One need only look at the amazing Sandra Diaz-Twine for shining examples of such.

 

Bullying usually means treating someone negatively not because of their behavior but because of the person's inherent weakness (perceived or actual) or their divergence from the standards of the group.  Taking the moment of the "family letters" when everybody was boohooing over their loved ones to rail against Shirin that she had no one who loves her and no family is IMO bullying-like.  I do concede that bullying is more reliably identified when it's a consistent pattern of behavior, over time.  But I understand from others on these board (who know more, read more interviews, and watch more scenes than I do) that there have been other episodes of Will railing against Shirin.   Frankly it doesn't surprise me as bullies who meet no resistance from outsiders tend to ratchet up their attacks.

[Drogo]

 

Nope, people are pointing out Will's size as a relevant issue in bullying and I simply countered that in a game where physical bullying is not allowed that mental acuity would be more of an advantage.  Someone described Will as a 350 lb giant and Shirin as a helpless tiny woman when having strong verbal skills is a more powerful weapon than strength which cannot be used against someone except in challenges.

 

I am going to have to absolutely positively disagree with this logic.  There is no way for Shirin to know whether or not Will has the restraint to control himself physically when he's screaming at her, being generally aggressive and combative. 

 

I'm 6'2", 240 lbs.  I go to the gym five days a week and I have since I was 15.  I spent 5 years and 3 combat tours with the U.S. Marines.  I don't scream or have conflicts with small guys or women, no matter what "the rules" are.  I believe that walking around with a frame like mine (or Will's) is like a policeman walking around with a gun on his belt- people are nervous to get into a confrontation with you, and every not-nice thing you say is magnified tenfold because you are physically intimidating to them whether you're trying to be or not.  It's the job of the more intimidating person to stay cool if they don't want to be considered terrifying. 

 

As far as Survivor's rules... LOL...

 

Say you get into an argument with someone at the supermarket when you accidentally run over their foot with your cart.  They get crazy-eyes and start tearing into you verbally.  Now, it is illegal for them to pull out a gun and shoot you in the head.  But they might, and you don't know this person or what they're capable of.  And by the time you find out, it's going to be too late. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Drogo

[peachmangosteen]

I don't even like Will but it's ironic because he's being cyberbullied all over Twitter and message boards in the same way that people are accusing him of bullying Shirin.

 

 Is Will getting messages elsewhere (he isn't here but I haven't looked at twitter or tumblr) that his wife doesn't love him or that he's soulless? Perhaps he is, but even so, IMO that doesn't somehow justify Will's actions.

 

This thread is already at 9 pages. Crap, Probst will use the number of responses to episodes like these to justify his opinions that they're so "amazing" "best ever". Too bad never ventures into to see that the content is all about how horrified and uncomfortable we all were.

 

This combined with the fact that the ratings are apparently great is just disheartening. Probst and co. probably feel so vindicated now. Of course I'm part of the problem as I continue to watch and post here!

 

I am not looking forward to Probst slobbering over how "chivalrous" this move was and how it makes Mike an amazing human being who is the best thing to come out of Texas since Colby.

 

Oh shit. I didn't think about this but you are so right. I'm now OK with Mike winning just because there's so many more awful people than him out there, but his hero worship from the show is going to get even worse now.

 

Even then he could have retrieved it if he'd admitted that he'd seen red, lost it, gone too far and then apologised for it.

 

But no, instead we get his tribal council reply, where he tries to justify everything he previously said.

I think this is what really makes Will just reprehensible to me. I'll even maybe give him some leeway that at TC he was still worked up and whatnot, but even now, months later, he doesn't believe he did anything wrong and he has not apologized. What an awful man.

 

Until Sierra, Tyler, or Carolyn want to give me exact quotes from Shirin, they can take their "It was two-sided! She provoked him!" shit and shove it. I have no problem believing Shirin didn't sit there the whole time and say nothing, but again unless she was telling Will he was fat and screaming at him from a standing position that his wife doesn't love him then, no, it's not comparable and it doesn't make Will's behavior justified.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

Until Sierra, Tyler, or Carolyn want to give me exact quotes from Shirin, they can take their "It was two-sided! She provoked him!" shit and shove it. I have no problem believing Shirin didn't sit there the whole time and say nothing, but again unless she was telling Will he was fat and screaming at him from a standing position that his wife doesn't love him then, no, it's not comparable and it doesn't make Will's behavior justified.

 

They might be referring to the day-to-day blabbering that Shirin has shown she does. Like when she and Max talked Survivor trivia non-stop. I really have no idea and we can speculate until the cows come home. At the end of the day, nobody deserves the verbal beatdown that Will gave. No one. No matter if they talk too much or you just don't like the person.... there's such a thing as civility and keeping your mouth shut if all that you have to come out of it is crap. Like a ten-speed bike, most of us have gears we do not use.

 

“Don't say you're sorry, ask me how much it cost.” ― Stuart Connelly 

[Special K]

I am repeatedly struck by the irony of coming onto this thread, titled in Will's own boastful words "Bring the Popcorn," and read page after page of reaction, most of it negative toward Will, to this episode's train-wreck.  Oh, it's a show alright!

 

Will, is this what you had in mind for our popcorn consumption?!?

[peachmangosteen]

At the end of the day, nobody deserves the verbal beatdown that Will gave. No one. No matter if they talk too much or you just don't like the person.... there's such a thing as civility and keeping your mouth shut if all that you have to come out of it is crap. Like a ten-speed bike, most of us have gears we do not use.

This. I know the editing is awful and I'm sure Shirin is much more annoying than we have been shown, but there is no way in hell there's enough footage out there to make me go, "Oh, you guys are right, Shirin deserved to be treated like shit."

[needschocolate]

As for the tweets by cast mates, I have not seen them yet so I cannot comment. I would also suggest that after spending 39 days with a person, and everyone on the jury played with these folks the entire game, you do form a certain bond. If they were friends with Will through out the game there is going to be a desire to protect him after the episode. So I am going to take those with a grain of salt.

 

Plus, if people are complaining that they should have stepped in and stopped it, they may want to make it sound like it wasn't as unfair as we were shown.  

[peachmangosteen]

Plus, if people are complaining that they should have stepped in and stopped it, they may want to make it sound like it wasn't as unfair as we were shown.  

 

They are trying to do that. Or at least Tyler is. But they don't want to explain why they feel that way, so it's ultimately pointless and just makes them look like they realize they look shitty to the audience and they want to save face without having to apologize.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[dolphincorn]

Tyler can't apologize, even if he wants to. Jenn was able to discuss her side of the story because she was voted off. The rest are still stuck in the world of non-disclosure.

[Jersey Guy 87]

I'm trying to think of any cast that had as many unpleasant people as this cast.  Closest is maybe Fiji with Rocky, Alex, and Lisi?  But there were not quite as many awful assholes and there were a larger than usual number of genuinely cool people (Yau, Earl, Michelle) with some additional just nice people (Cassandra) and comically endearing buffoons (Boo) along for the ride.  And the cool people ultimately foiled the assholes in the single best episode this show's ever had.

 

Exactly. There have been plenty of vile people over the years on Survivor but they've often failed (and sometimes, like Fiji, spectacularly). Or they're just not as many of them as there are this season.  The horrible people have basically been running the game since day one with no sign of stopping.

 

Why didn't Will return his auction item after he "won" it.  It's perfectly legal.  Just ask Carolyn.

 

We don't know that Carolyn was actually able to return the letter.  Plus, she hadn't read it yet.

 

I despise Rahdney, but I didn't think the steak looked that big.  I could have eaten it.  Especially if I hadn't really eaten for three weeks except for a few bites of chicken.  I suppose he could have shared some with a friend, but I bet he didn't.

 

What I found excessive was the two gallons of sangria (?) that Jenn chugged down.  If there was any alcohol at all in there, with the exhaustion etc she should have been on the floor.  It appeared to have been meant to be shared but she didn't seem to share.

 

The large drink Jenn won was not meant to be shared because there was no sharing of food allowed.  Same with the steak - only Rodney could eat the steak, he couldn't share it.

 

What Will said was absolutely wrong... my argument is that what Mike, Jenn and Shirin did was also bullying because they made up something in their heads and tried to turn everyone against Will.  Will's main crime is that he behaved like a child instead of calmly working the scenario to his advantage.

 

I wouldn't define what Mike, Jenn and Shirin did as bullying, it was legitimate gameplay.  Will had every right to be upset about it.  Will had every right to attack back.  Given the situation (on the island for several weeks, sleep and food deprived, intense emotional setting, etc.) I'm even willing to grant him some slack on getting too personal in his attacks.  It happens, I can imagine that people playing Survivor for 25 days are not in the best control of their emotional impulses.  However, Will did not back off one bit.  Later, at TC, when he had time to think about things and calm down he didn't back off.  Now, months after the fact, he still hasn't apologized.  I try not to judge how people are in real life based on their behavior on a reality TV game show, I'm willing to grant people some slack for what they say in the heat of the moment in an emotionally charged situation but I think Will is exceeding my capacity for slack-granting.  Had he told Shirin she's a horribly annoying person with no friends in the game I'd grant him slack.  I'd even give him slack if he told her she was a soulless person with no friends but later apologized.  But to sit at TC and say he was just telling the truth?  Will gets no slack from me.

[peachmangosteen]

Tyler can't apologize, even if he wants to. Jenn was able to discuss her side of the story because she was voted off. The rest are still stuck in the world of non-disclosure.

 

Taking my response to Tyler's thread.

Edited April 24, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[dolphincorn]

His Twitter reads "Many good/imp Q's will unfortu be discussed after the finale out of respect to those who gave me this incredible opportunity & requested it."