S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[soapfaninnc]

Elizabeth didn't produce Paige to be a 2nd generation spy.  She had no idea they would ask her to do that.

 

 

 

 

That's not what I meant. I meant that Elizabeth told Gregory that she wouldn't have had children - she was ordered to do so. I don't recall that being part of any history I've studied concerning the revolutionary war. But Elizabeth has been pretty gung ho about the idea since it was introduced except for her initial reaction - which was pretty much the same as Phillip's.

 

I found it very chilling that poor Phillip was trying to open himself up to Elizabeth at the end of the episode and it was very clear she wasn't paying attention. Her dismissive - "You aren't seeing things clearly." about Martha is correct even if its supremely ironic. She sees nothing clearly except her blind devotion to the cause. I loved the way they had his breakdown contrasted with Paige's. She is Phillip's child too and I think he understands her better than her mother does. 

 

I cannot stand Old Dracula. Telling Phillip to 'grow up'? Poor choice of words. What he meant was - shut up and be a good soldier and stop thinking for yourself.

 

I was completely unmoved by the scene with Elizabeth and her mother. It was too short, for one thing. And I can see why it freaked Paige out. I never saw my grandmother cry until her father died. I was around Paige's age and she had always been my rock - I could always count on her to stay composed. Seeing her mother like that probably shook Paige up - even if she had compassion for both of them - and I think that she did based on her reactions. I think the actress is doing a great job. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by soapfaninnc

[BradandJanet]

I think the scene with the grandmother was short because KR's Russian accent is poor and that would be a problem because she would have to be the translator between Paige and the grandmother. The interaction could have shed some interesting light on Elizabeth's backstory and its resolution and Paige's struggle to evaluate her place in the family. I wonder if the scene was filmed longer and then edited down. There was a lot of build up to the grandma meeting and possible bad consequences to come for P & E for arranging it, so the scene itself was disappointing.

[paramitch]

The season finale! Damn, it always comes too soon.

 

Note how the school calls the parents when their child quits the volleyball team.....Pastor Tim always makes the opposite choice, only contacting the parents at all when he's on some stealth mission to prepare the way for something he and Paige have cooked up. Otherwise he allows her to make far bigger decisions with no input from her parents. And then gets out of it by claiming he thought they knew.

 

I don't know what he'll make of her confession, but my hope is that the pastor's consistent arrogance will keep him quiet

This has been the most fascinating yet difficult aspect of the Paige plot to me this season. I'm sorry, but it is not normal, now or in the 80s, for a teenaged girl to stay the night with her pastor. Especially when he consistently doesn't bother to get permission from her parents. I know the producers seem to keep parroting that Tim is on the up and up, but how?? How? The guy has brainwashed their daughter, taken their money without their consent, consistently does not keep them informed even when she is SLEEPING IN HIS HOUSE. I mean, how does that work? Aren't Philip and Elizabeth in a position of power at this point? There is now a history -- verifiable -- that this man abused his position with Paige, whether or not there was other abuse involved.

 

I was happy when Zinaida got caught....I dunno why?

Because the actress has played her with such a visible contempt. She smirks through all her scenes like Americans are idiots, so I admit that it was gratifying to see her get caught, and for that smirk to get wiped off her face.

 

I agree 100% with this review, particularly the unnecessary scene with Philip and Sandra:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/bastard-machine/tim-goodman-was-americans-season-791003

This was an interesting take. I loved the piece but the writer (to me) spent too much time apologizing for criticism and too little actually delving into what bothered them. For instance: I really surprised myself by liking the Philip/Sandra scene. I do think it was an essential component to his palpable depression.

 

The most compelling story for me right now is that Philip is ALSO cracking.  BAD.  His life of lies, and the things they've had him do, and that he's done are tearing him up inside.  "I feel like shit all the time."  Kimmie.  Analiese.  His daughter.  Martha.  and on and on, including his doubts and anger at his handler.  He went to EST, longing for some kind of honesty

I was incredibly saddened and moved by Philip's plight this episode (yes, I know he's a coldblooded murderer). But it turns out that -- as we knew, his blood is not as cold as Elizabeth's. He can't keep doing these things forever. He has to find a better reason, and an aging, crumbling ideology is not proving enough.

 

The finale was about the cost of a life of lies. The lies are eating away at Phillip. He has literally no one to turn to. He is lying to everyone.

 

Proof that "The Americans" is still capable of greatness: that I felt so irrevocably, terribly sad for Philip -- only minutes after watching him kill an innocent man. Matthew Rhys is fantastic. If you look, you can see the tears in his eyes in multiple scenes. No big histrionics -- just these glimmers of tears held back, and the sense that he is killing himself with every murder.

 

He did tell Elizabeth, and she was the one to tell him he better go prepare Martha for this news.  She said "I don't think you are seeing things clearly."

It's funny that Philip is the most terrifying character on this show to me, yet he is still the one I am most invested in. I'm so, so tired of everyone (Gabriel, Elizabeth, etc.) treating him like crap when he is the one with the consistently worst, most difficult, jobs. He's given these consistently horrific tasks and then treated like a misbehaving child while spinning dozens of plates at once.

 

<snipped to specific quotes for space>

Completely freaky that Philip's fake suicide note for his victim, "I had no choice ......  I'm sorry", could have been an echo of his own thoughts.

 

I've always liked the actress who plays Sandra, and I was really surprised to see how well the characters worked together.  Sandra couldn't be more different than Elizabeth and there was definitely chemistry there.  I loved Philip and Elizabeth's romance in season one, but Philip is lost, and as much as I think Elizabeth loves him, he will never be first in her life.  I don't know if any romance is intended, but spending time with Sandra may break the hold Elizabeth has on Philip - at least enough for him to make her listen to him. 

 

Final scene - Vintage Elizabeth.  Convinced Paige had a positive experience and is just fine, while she's actually curled into a ball, feeling completely isolated and on the verge of a breakdown.

 

Really perceptive post, and I agree with you that I would have liked the meet with Elizabeth's Mom to give her some illumination versus confirmation. I love the picture you paint -- Elizabeth remains blithely sure of Paige, while Paige is in utter despair. 

I was also surprised by Philip's conversation with Sandra. I don't really love the idea of an affair -- it's already so incestuous with Philip and Stan as friends -- but I agree that there was something really moving in that scene. I loved Sandra's admission that no one really knows her, compounded with Philip's desire for real honesty even if he knows it's impossible. Really fascinating.

 

But I liked the clothes!  Sandra's gold metallic threaded blouse.  Paige's footprint t-shirt.

Every once in awhile, this show really hits a mark on the clothing, which I think is beautifully and subtly designed for the show. I was Paige's age during the show's events, and I had a blouse similar to the one Sandra wore here, with these faint gold threads, and man, I am telling you, that thing made me feel like the prettiest, happiest person on the planet. Your post really brought that back -- it had a faint plaid pattern and puffed sleeves and I thought it was the prettiest thing ever. Worn, of course, with my stretchy gold belt. Sigh.

Overall, I liked this as a finale and thought it capped off a solid and often surprising season. I didn't mind skipping Kimmie -- her stuff was in a holding pattern (or a spinning pattern, as Philip twirls a laughable number of plates). I disliked the Paige stuff but loved where it ended up and I loved that the showrunners allowed Paige to be true to herself -- the character acted exactly in character. And watching poor Philip suffer mutely year after year has grown excruciating. I used to be happy for what he had found in Elizabeth, but is it worth it, now? Really? The guy is in agony, living a horrific life and lie, and is treated like infantile crap by his wife and handler. How long until he simply -- understandably -- breaks? I think that's what we'll see next season. And if we do, the wrath of Philip will be truly epic.

And that's what I think will finally break Elizabeth and remove the scales from her eyes.

Edited April 25, 2015 by paramitch

[sistermagpie]

It's funny that Philip is the most terrifying character on this show to me, yet he is still the one I am most invested in. I'm so, so tired of everyone (Gabriel, Elizabeth, etc.) treating him like crap when he is the one with the consistently worst, most difficult, jobs.

 

 

I know right? He's like some classic monster--so much scarier because of the compassion.

 

This has been the most fascinating yet difficult aspect of the Paige plot to me this season. I'm sorry, but it is not normal, now or in the 80s, for a teenaged girl to stay the night with her pastor. Especially when he consistently doesn't bother to get permission from her parents. I know the producers seem to keep parroting that Tim is on the up and up, but how?? How? The guy has brainwashed their daughter, taken their money without their consent, consistently does not keep them informed even when she is SLEEPING IN HIS HOUSE. I mean, how does that work? Aren't Philip and Elizabeth in a position of power at this point? There is now a history -- verifiable -- that this man abused his position with Paige, whether or not there was other abuse involved.

 

 

And the worst is I can't figure out if it's intentional. Do they think this is normal for pastors? The few times I've talked to people who claim he's completely normal based on their experiences growing up in youth group they invariably go on to describe situations that are completely different and lacking in all the red flags Tim sends out.

 

I was thinking about the prayer in the bathroom--in one review it said that Elizabeth was envying Paige her faith there and I thought that was a bizarre interpretation since Elizabeth obviously has faith, just in something different. She wouldn't be automatically envious of Paige praying when she thinks God simply doesn't exist.

 

But I couldn't help but compare it to the Kimmie/Philip prayer earlier, which was so different. In this scene Paige is genuinely praying. It's a gesture of kindness and sympathy, but it's one that separates her from Elizabeth--or at least doesn't particularly connect them. (If Elizabeth was longing for something in that scene, I think it was connection to Paige, not faith in God.) It was a bit like the scene at the end where one person concentrating on their faith (Paige bowing her head and shutting her eyes, Elizabeth staring at Reagan on TV) leaves the other person sitting quietly with their own thoughts so as to not interrupt.

 

In the Philip/Kimmie scene Philip is lying about praying--he's not really talking to God, he's using the prayer to tell Kimmie that she's special to him and he likes her. He just says it out loud as if he's talking to God where she can hear him. And Kimmie surprises him by offering her own prayer, and her prayer is exactly a mirror of his, a way of speaking to "Jim" by praying out loud. She tells him she hopes he and his son reunite, that he's a great father. And Philip is touched by the unexpected kindness extended to him personally.

 

The scenes in this ep both showed faith separating people when they didn't share the same ones. And interestingly when Paige calls Pastor Tim it's also for personal advice and connection--she tried praying and it didn't tell her what to do, just as Philip knows why he's doing these things but it's not helping. So even when people share the same faith they sometimes need the personal connection.

 

Which also reflects the Philip/Sandra scene. Philip isn't some big EST convert who's telling everyone how great it is, he's just trying to work out a problem in himself and Sandra understands it. Again the faith doesn't answer all the problems--when Sandra suggests they agree to tell each other everything like good EST-ites he honestly says he doesn't think he can do it. It's not that simple. But the limited understanding they do have of each other is very positive. Interesting to compare it to Stan's earlier encounter with the woman from EST where she saw right through him on the sex without intimacy--or even honesty--front. The problem wasn't that Stan wasn't truly an EST convert in a cult-ish way, but that he didn't share her seeking for some kind of honesty, just as Sandra also noticed.

 

And Stan's still doing that to an extent in that he's still focused on his romance with Nina, a relationship he doesn't actually understand. Nina herself seems to spend little time these days thinking about Stan and Oleg. She, like Philip, is more focused on herself and asking how long she can keep doing this and gets advice from someone who can understand. Stan, meanwhile, is still in this fairy tale where if he rescues the princess he's the big hero again and redeems himself and gets the bad guy (Oleg).

 

I think a Philip/Sandra affair would be ridiculous, though, and can't imagine the screentime it would waste setting up Philip having to develop enough attraction to her to involve himself in yet another sexual mess. I was shocked when somebody claimed Philip was depressed in this ep because he "turned down free sex from Sandra" as if their scenes were just about Sandra wanting to hook up, which seems to go completely against her character. I thought a big part of what was so refreshing about the scene for Philip was the lack of sex. He could talk about sex and intimacy without having to feel it. And I hadn't realized it before, but I guess this scene was also set up in the ep where Elizabeth comes home and gives him a blow job and he's clearly a million miles away. He doesn't have to fake it with her when they're truly connecting (like when they talked about making it real or he told her about his son and she apologized about Paige).

 

Sandra's been so no-nonsense during her time on the show she honestly seems like the last person who'd be sniffing around a neighbor for sex. I think in her own way she's just as interested in a platonic friendship as Philip would be--she just hasn't found a woman to get it from. In S1 she spent some time with Elizabeth but they didn't really connect. She went to EST and met this guy, but that was a romance--and she's probably right that she shouldn't have jumped from Stan to Arthur. It just would have been better to be on her own for a while. It makes sense she'd come to the sex seminar to try to separate those things.

[Cardie]

It's possible Tim could conclude, based on that information, that P&E are Russian spies.

 

It all depends on the follow-up. He will surely ask her what she means by their being liars. That they've lied about being immigrants? Other things? At that point Paige will either realize what the consequences will be if she makes clear that they are spies and stop short of full disclosure or she'll go ahead and make sure he understands exactly what she's telling him. So I don't think we'll have Tim misunderstanding unless Paige intends for him to misunderstand.

[Dowel Jones]

The lighter side:

 

They would have KGB sitters for that

 

Henry:  "This is the third time we've played Risk, and you win every time!  How do you do that?"

KGB sitter:  "Bwahahahaha".

Edited April 25, 2015 by Dowel Jones

[sistermagpie]

It all depends on the follow-up. He will surely ask her what she means by their being liars. That they've lied about being immigrants? Other things? At that point Paige will either realize what the consequences will be if she makes clear that they are spies and stop short of full disclosure or she'll go ahead and make sure he understands exactly what she's telling him. So I don't think we'll have Tim misunderstanding unless Paige intends for him to misunderstand.

 

 

I agree. And we'll have to see how feasible it is to keep him in half-truth. It may just be easier to have him dealing with the real deal.

 

It also occurred to me--I was talking to someone IRL about how we both would have had a million questions for P&E and Paige really doesn't. She has questions, of course, but they're all really about her own life and what's not true: is the travel agency real, what are your names, why don't you have accents, is Aunt Helen real, am I adopted. All those questions are about her own life as she's experienced it.

 

She has really zero interest in who they are, really. No interest in the type of stuff Elizabeth really wants to tell her. In fact, she seems terrified and overwhelmed by just those things. Aunt Helen may have been fake, but she was actually fake in a comforting way--for all Paige is angry part of her anger comes from preferring the lie. Aunt Helen was weird, but it was easy for Paige to get her head around an old lady who lived in Pennsylvania and was her mother's great aunt who broke her hip and had a daughter who died. Faced with the real thing all she saw was OTHER. Elizabeth warned her that her mother was tough and Paige related that to her friends who also had tough grandmothers, but really they were both wrong. The grandmother didn't come across as tough, but nor did she come across like Paige's friends' grandmothers. It was just a weird, unsettling experience.

 

I don't think Paige regrets asking for the truth, but I do think she wants the lie back. She's not eager to finally get to know her parents as people. She asked for the truth to get rid of the feeling of otherness, feeling that once she knew the truth she could incorporate it into her life as she understood it. She wanted to make her parents understandable the way they were before, not crack them open to see just how complicated they were.

[soapfaninnc]

I forgot to mention how much I loved that conversation between Sandra and Phillip. It gave him a real sense of not being the only person who feels like no one knows them - he's not the only one who feels completely adrift and a total mess. (I also LOVED her shirt - I had one too and it made me feel - as someone else said upthread - like a sparkly princess.) I would love for them to explore a great friendship between not only Phillip and Sandra, but Henry and Stan. Just a friendship - no angle to be worked. One of the things I loved about Justified was the relationships between the characters - the bonds ran deep and rang true. No one was black or white - they all had their lines they'd cross. 

 

Phillip reminds me a lot of that type of character. He's so fully fleshed out, despite us not knowing much about his past, and his portrayer just kills me with the subtle things that let us know the toll this is all taking on the character. 

 

I just can't care about Nina any longer. As much as I like the actress, I feel they are really reaching to keep her around at this point in the story.  I like that Stan is showing us why he was so successful undercover and that he uncovered Miss Candy Bar. I really didn't like the way the actress played that role. 

[JasonCC]

I don't think Paige regrets asking for the truth, but I do think she wants the lie back. She's not eager to finally get to know her parents as people. She asked for the truth to get rid of the feeling of otherness, feeling that once she knew the truth she could incorporate it into her life as she understood it. She wanted to make her parents understandable the way they were before, not crack them open to see just how complicated they were.

 

 

The last couple of days I've just been thinking about how 15 years old is maybe the WORST AGE to lay this on Paige. A younger child you can mold into your own image, train them early to love the motherland and have contempt for all others. So many children are indoctrinated to fear or treat as "other" those they don't know or understand. An older child (say, 20) might actually be interested in the nuances of what made a person lie and live this whole other life.

15? It's all about you. And Paige is showing that. She really hasn't even gone there about the prevailing mindset about the Evil Empire and are her parents agents of that? It's all about the PERSONAL lie told. How it effects her vision of who SHE is. The legal and future ramifications aren't really hitting her.

 

I have to admit, a part of me thinks (since she has NO idea about murders or any of that) she's a little selfish bitch. But then I remember she's 15. I was much more didactic in good/bad black/white at 15. I do think this may have been the absolute worst time to have told her. She may have very well grown out of her Pastor Tim phase by 17. While probably less common today when the media let's you know gay is an option, in the 80s and early 90s a lot of my gay male cohorts had a brief uber-religious phase around 14 or 15. They feel disconnected from the mainstream culture, their families and don't know EXACTLY why so they seek a community. Then drift out of it.

Edited April 26, 2015 by JasonCC

[whiporee]

 

Huh? There's no trickery going on. Philip and Elizabeth both said she's alive, and he killed Gene because of it. No reason to kill Gene if Martha's dead.

 

Sure there is. If Martha dies as a suspect, the Feds are talking to a bunch of people, including Martha's parents. They would mention her husband which would cause more investigation and possibly expose Phillip.

 

Pin it on Gene with evidence, and then Martha being missing doesn't seem as suspicious. Or if it does, then maybe Gene is this husband of which Martha's parents speak.  

[henripootel]

Pin it on Gene with evidence, and then Martha being missing doesn't seem as suspicious. Or if it does, then maybe Gene is this husband of which Martha's parents speak.

Bingo.  I have more than a bit of problem with Phillip letting Martha out of his sight - Phillip's identity is pretty much Martha's ace in the hole.  She's sure to know that Gene was killed to protect her and I don't think she'd be able to take that.  She'd also worry (with good reason) that she might very well end up killed herself, so no way she'll be able to feign happiness with Clark anymore.  She could, however, make a deal: she gets her pension (and no jail time) and a new identity in Omaha in return for delivering a live illegal into a trap.  Where I Phillip (or Gabriel), this would be my biggest fear, so no way Martha would live long enough to work this out for herself.

Henry:  "This is the third time we've played Risk, and you win every time!  How do you do that?"

KGB sitter:  "Bwahahahaha".

You laugh but right around this time, I learned how to play Risk for blood from a priest.  He taught me that Risk is not about rolling dice at all, it's about making treaties with other players (typically, non-agression for 3 turns, ending on you, with the understanding that if you welsh I'll ignore the objectives of the game and just attack you endlessly).  It's a whole new level of gameplay, and I'll bet Gabriel would be great at it.  He even reminds me of Father Gerry a bit.

Edited April 26, 2015 by henripootel

[LisaM]

I'm really curious as to what Pastor Tim will do with the information from Paige that her parents are liars and that they are actually Russian. Will he confront P&E? If so, will they laugh it off and say that Paige was having a fight with them, saw Reagan's Evil Empire speech and thought to tar them with the worst thing she could think of? After all, they look and sound just like "ordinary Americans".

 

Also curious what the Center will do once they find out that the Paige reveal has backfired and that she has zero interest in working for the homeland. Will there be an implied threat against Henry to push Paige into line?

[sistermagpie]

Sure there is. If Martha dies as a suspect, the Feds are talking to a bunch of people, including Martha's parents. They would mention her husband which would cause more investigation and possibly expose Phillip.

 

Pin it on Gene with evidence, and then Martha being missing doesn't seem as suspicious. Or if it does, then maybe Gene is this husband of which Martha's parents speak.

 

 

The suicide note is about making Gene the only suspect. If they still suspect Martha regardless they'd continue to investigate her the same way. Why would they assume Gene was the husband of which her parents speak when they say his name is Clark Westerfield and is not the same man as Gene, having seen photographs?

 

If he was going to kill Matha he'd pin the evidence on her and be done with it. Philip was always going to try to kill as few people as possible. It's not just about covering himself it's all about covering Martha and protecting her. If he's not protecting her there's no need for false evidence. Martha actually did it and Clark ceases to exist.

 

Also curious what the Center will do once they find out that the Paige reveal has backfired and that she has zero interest in working for the homeland. Will there be an implied threat against Henry to push Paige into line?

 

 

It seems to me like the entire KGB has just put themselves at the mercy of a teenager and there's nothing they can do about it. Threaten Henry? To Paige? Then she's going to the FBI. They probably haven't yet given up hope of her working for the Centre. The fact that she's not immediately into it probably wouldn't be a dealbreaker. There's just no way they can turn her into a loyal, stable agent via force.

Edited April 26, 2015 by sistermagpie

[JasonCC]

I'm really curious as to what Pastor Tim will do with the information from Paige that her parents are liars and that they are actually Russian. Will he confront P&E? If so, will they laugh it off and say that Paige was having a fight with them, saw Reagan's Evil Empire speech and thought to tar them with the worst thing she could think of? After all, they look and sound just like "ordinary Americans".

 

LisaM: You know this is very likely outcome I hadn't even thought of! Really, if Pastor Tim is meant to be portrayed as a normal, caring pastor that would indeed be the first reaction I think. Plus, he knows that E&P are nonbelievers I could see him telling Paige something like "now, just because you know Jesus and are having the tough realization your parents are atheists you can't go making accusations like this, no matter how angry and frustrated you are with them!"

Edited April 26, 2015 by JasonCC

[Umbelina]

I'm trying to put myself in the Pastor's position for a moment, kind of a tough fit for me, other than the liberal bent.  It's an easier fit to put myself in in his head as someone who worked  with troubled teenagers, which I have done.  It's not difficult to put myself back in 1983, or hearing Reagan's speech, which, even though I didn't like the man, I approved of, I'd read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's books, and personally knew a few legally released Russian Jews.  I detested that wall, holding people in, even if I hated "Star Wars."   The whole evangelical thing throws me a bit, probably since I've ALWAYS doubted this pastor, but taking the show runners word for it, that he is what he seems (for now) I'll just cope.

 

What would I think if I'd been at the other end of that phone call, and a girl who just barely turned 15, a girl I'd been working with, who had obvious problems of some kind at home, said that to me?

 

They are liars.  They are Russians.  They are trying to make me a liar too.  (all in that tearful, desperate, whispery voice.) 

 

1.  I really couldn't separate the desperation in her voice from the message.  It wouldn't be just the words for me, but the tone that would cause me concern.

 

2.  After letting her vent, I would very gently ask her if she meant they were in hiding, refugees, or if she meant something else. 

 

3.  Would I think "spies?"  I think I would, even if I try to ignore, for this purpose, the things I knew from my Russian friends, here at that time.  My mind WOULD go there, mostly because of their perfect accents, which I would think only very well trained spies could have.  Was I more well read and interested in all things Russian than the pastor?  Probably, since I studied the language, but because of his activism, I believe he would have read at least Gulag Archipelago. 

 

4.  Would I think "Russian heritage" not birth/citizenship?  Maybe for a second, but again, the desperation in her voice, the fear, and the "they are trying to make me a liar too" would nix that for me.

 

He is not an idiot, he is interested in the politics of the day.  I do wonder if my own experiences are shaping my answer though.  Honestly, after thinking  out loud, I think "They are KGB" would be my conclusion.  It would also be his.  I can't realistically imagine he could logically think anything else.

 

I'd love to hear other opinions on this, after pretending you are that guy, listening to that phone call.  I'm aware that my own history could be clouding this, as much as I'm trying to separate it from "putting myself in his shoes."  Anyone else?

[sistermagpie]

I'd love to hear other opinions on this, after pretending you are that guy, listening to that phone call.  I'm aware that my own history could be clouding this, as much as I'm trying to separate it from "putting myself in his shoes."  Anyone else?

 

 

I assume, as I think someone said above, that he would only misunderstand if Paige deliberately led him to believe something else. Otherwise I just assume he believes, and that she possibly told him flat-out, that her parents are undercover Russian agents posing as Americans.

 

She is obviously scared and there's really nothing she's ever said to him about their behavior that's given her a reason to be so. Anxious, yes, because she doesn't know what they're up to. But they're not hurting her, she's not having scary people come to the house, not overhearing loud arguments or anything like that. She simply noticed that her parents were involved in something out of the house, and now she's desperately telling him that they're liars, they're really Russian (and Russian in a way that means they have to be out of the house at odd hours) etc. I can't think of some other story it would make sense for him to hold onto.

 

She's sworn him to secrecy. He probably wouldn't want to just jump in and have them arrested and break up the family. But also, I at least hope that the showrunners have enough self-awareness to know that the guy's a meddler and an egotist and has made it clear that he wants to be the "savior" (and controller) of this family. He's always seemed excited by tangles with Philip, likes needling him, likes Paige bringing him into the house to be her champion and fix things. Plus we know that the show isn't set to end for sure next year--this isn't Hank on the toilet in BB.

 

So either the Pastor doesn't know the truth, or he knows the truth and thinks he can handle it himself. I tend to think the latter.

 

Unless, of course, Paige intentionally doesn't tell him they're spies and just tries to be vague about why they're pretending to be American. In that case they could be refugees but they could also just be part of some other shady thing. i can imagine him not jumping to spies in that case not because spies would be so impossible but because he could just imagine other scenarios if Paige isn't saying they're spies. The world is a weird place--maybe they speak English well do to some other association with Americans, for instance. To use another BB analogy, it's not quite as no-brainer as suddenly having lots of money from no obvious source and shady druggie contacts. After all, Paige really is sounding desperate and upset because of the lying rather than out of some fear of alien Soviets setting off a nuclear warhead or something.

Edited April 26, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Couch Sweet Potato]

 

I'd love to hear other opinions on this, after pretending you are that guy, listening to that phone call.  I'm aware that my own history could be clouding this, as much as I'm trying to separate it from "putting myself in his shoes."  Anyone else?

I would have assumed Russian Mafia.

[kikaha]

I would have assumed Russian Mafia.

In 1983? 

 

Pastor Tim knows Paige is not hysterical.  He knows she's level-headed and loves her parents.  I think he has to take her phone call to him seriously. 

 

Can't believe that's the end of it, either.  Just the opposite: I would expect Tim to have tons of questions for Paige.  Unless she has a complete change of heart -- unless she tells him she was stressed and angry and made things up -- I expect Paige to answer him.  If Tim takes this to the authorities, total disaster for P&E.

 

Ironic that P&E risk getting exposed -- by the very tactic Stalin so encouraged for decades in the USSR, i.e. children turning on their parents. 

[RedHawk]

I can see Tim concluding they're Russian Jews and thus that's why P&E are immune to his groovy charismatic Christian overtures. Half-serious here.

[sistermagpie]

I can see Tim concluding they're Russian Jews and thus that's why P&E are immune to his groovy charismatic Christian overtures. Half-serious here.

 

 

I would love seeing them run with that and pretend!

 

Basically, I'll bet they're going to come up with some strategy for dealing with him.

[BigBlueMastiff]

 

The trip to see Elizabeth's mother did seem anti-climatic, because it looked like Elizabeth and Paige saw her for like five minutes (they were still in their jammies when she left), and like they never left their hotel room except for that one walk at night. They should have a least gone sight-seeing so that Paige would have a story to tell about her time in Berlin. Speaking of Berlin, I don't know what Kreuzberg was like in 1983, but for at least the past 20 years it's been a very "hip" neighborhood with lots of graffiti and street art. The area where Elizabeth and Paige were walking at night, and the view from their hotel window, looked nothing like Kreuzberg.

This. I used to live in Berlin, and where they stayed looked a lot more like Charlottenberg in the former West Berlin. Kreuzberg-Friedrichshain bordered the old East and West.

 

I knew Paige couldn't keep that secret. Wonder what Pastor Tim will do. Hilarious that Stan actually thought he would get Nina back, and loved how Gaad told him where she ranked in order of importance, which is not at all. Stan is such a chump, and totally understand the wife not wanting the wedding album. I doubt the person who got cheated on would want any memento from their marriage, especially not wedding pics.

[Guest]

So who else thinks Tim's not long for this world?  

[Cardie]

Unlike all the other inconvenient innocents P&E bump off, Pastor Tim is connected to their cover life, not their spy life, with its disguises and false identities. Killing him involves all sorts of risks, plus he'll probably share with his wife. If they can head him off any other way, I think they will. Of course, Paige could hide having told him all the way to the FBI knocking on the Jennings' door.

[PinkRibbons]

So who else thinks Tim's not long for this world?  

 

Holly Taylor, hilariously enough. She said on the season finale podcast that her first thought on reading the script for this episode was "Oh God, what are they gonna do to Pastor Tim?"

 

Speaking of behind the scenes on this episode:

[dr pepper]

The Commodore 64.  64k RAM, and 30911 bytes free.  OMG.

 

And the listing of Wordstar commands.

[Umbelina]

Kenya.  Snake bite.  Or killed by pro Apartheid forces.

[Former Nun]

Stan is such a chump,

 

 

BigBlueMastiff, this should have been the first line of the treatment describing Stan's character.  He's just the best chump in every day: husband, father, neighbor, lover, spy, agent.  Thanks!

[sistermagpie]

Holly Taylor, hilariously enough. She said on the season finale podcast that her first thought on reading the script for this episode was "Oh God, what are they gonna do to Pastor Tim?"

 

 

 

Didn't Kelly AuCoin also make a funny joke about that? I think he tweeted a job opening for a groovy pastor, wig optional...

 

I wonder if just as Reagan's speech and the visit to her mother seem to have sent Elizabeth a bit back into her "all for the cause" place if Paige telling will send Philip back into survival mode a bit. The development of people on the show doesn't tend to be just linear, after all. It's always going to be easy for Elizabeth to slip back into her mode of being the best Little Octobrist proving herself to the state. Philip's probably always in danger of slipping back into being the kid who's going to get home with him and his milk in one piece.

[SunnyBeBe]

Kenya.  Snake bite.  Or killed by pro Apartheid forces

 

 

I initially thought that wild animals would be a good way to take Pastor out, but since he became a huge liability in March, then what do they do with him until the summer trip?  It messes up that plan, IMO.  Now, I'm not sure what they'll do.  It's true that him meeting with an untimely death might arouse suspicion, but what real choice do they have?  The risk of him having the information that Paige provided is too great to allow him to survive even 24 hours, IMO.  His wife was home too, right?  It seems like Paige asked to speak with him, so I take it that Wife answered the phone.  So, wife may have been told immediately upon Pastor hanging up.   I see no way the two of them survive throughout the night, IF the Centre had their phone bugged and overheard what Paige said.   Perhaps a gas leak or explosion of their house would not arouse suspicion. lol

 

While the Pastor could interpret the comments about her parents being Russian in an innocent sort of way, that's just too speculative to allow to dangle around until the Kenya trip, IMO.  

 

If the Centre did not overhear what Paige said, then there is some leeway.  I guess we'll have to trust that the writers come up with some explanation that Pastor Tim keeps the information to himself.  But, knowing how he has behaved thus far, I don't buy that he would sit on it.  I would imagine he would use it somehow to his benefit.

Edited April 29, 2015 by SunnyBeBe

[Mindymoo]

I am really hoping that the KGB has bugged the Jennings' phone, just because in situations like this, it's easier to keep an eye on Paige and the things she's saying. And it's easier to keep an eye on their agents, too. Just think of the drama if it's Grannie or Gabriel that gives them the news that Paige squealed instead of Paige or Pastor Tim.

[RazzleberryPie]

Philip was offered the alleged chance to bring him home and he respected him as a human being who should make his own choices. This seems like a cruel way to use him, to drag him home like an object to be shown off for some American teenager he doesn't know, in the service of the father who has never met him. 

 

I presumed sending Mischa Jr. "home" would be back to Russia, not the US, if he even really exists. 

I really enjoyed that. Paige's storyline has been building towards that all season.  She is a deeply  honest person who just couldn't handle the fact that her parents are basically lying liars who lie and went to a person who she thinks she can trust.  Who knows maybe she can.  P&E may have to kill him next season and it may be a object lesson for Paige.  

 

Hey at least we found out Martha is still alive.  Good for you Martha.   

 

15 year olds can be really idealistic. That deep honesty could easily be shattered with some maturity and a dose of responsibility.

Was it just me or meeting grandma just a little anti climate!? I expect a lot spy tricks (disguise, hinding in car trunks, etc) a full fledge spy movie like operation. As the KGB moved them to meet grandma behind the iron curtain or vice a versa.

How they get grandma to the meet in the first place? Even if you just drove her across the border that would draw a lot of attention to them from west Germany counter intell people!

VERY anti-climatic. They seemed to breeze right in and out of West/East Germany? Not sure how they transported Grandma, who was very ill, that easily, either. I really wanted to see more contrast of how cushy the US was vs East Germany or especially Russia, but no. 

 

Is there are chance that Pastor Tim works for the Centre? If the goal were to turn Paige and eventually Henry, it would be a good plant -- give her an alternative adult to turn to, and then he and his wife could slowly turn her after she trusts them completely. After seeing what honey trapping did to Jared, I could certainly see them using another way in, and Pastor Tim would have been a pretty good place to start. 

 

From the introduction of Pastor Tim, I've really wanted him to be counter intelligence instead of just a hippy dippy pastor.

I am really hoping that the KGB has bugged the Jennings' phone, just because in situations like this, it's easier to keep an eye on Paige and the things she's saying. And it's easier to keep an eye on their agents, too. Just think of the drama if it's Grannie or Gabriel that gives them the news that Paige squealed instead of Paige or Pastor Tim.

It is far more believable the centre would bug their phone than that it wouldn't. 

 

I actually expected them to either leave page in Russia, or now that she's squealed, she'll end up there instead of Kenya. She's become so annoying, neither would make me mad. Henry is the diamond in the rough for the next 007.

[gwhh]

According, to everything I have read and heard from interviews, podcast, articles, or rounds table about the show..  Pastor Tim is JUST what he says he is.  A far left, pastor!  He not a KGB, CIA agent, or child molester, or anything.  Than what he said he was! 

[sistermagpie]

I presumed sending Mischa Jr. "home" would be back to Russia, not the US, if he even really exists.

 

 

I agree. That line was, iirc, in reference to the idea of Paige meeting him elsewhere, like in the USSR. (Definitely not Afghanistan.)

 

According, to everything I have read and heard from interviews, podcast, articles, or rounds table about the show..  Pastor Tim is JUST what he says he is.  A far left, pastor!  He not a KGB, CIA agent, or child molester, or anything.  Than what he said he was!

 

 

And him being just what he presents himself as is actually the most dangerous thing. Being a KGB agent, a CIA agent or a child molester is actually the opposite of a twist. All his dramatic potential comes from him having an agenda that has nothing to do with this stuff.

[SeanC]

I initially thought that wild animals would be a good way to take Pastor out, but since he became a huge liability in March, then what do they do with him until the summer trip?  It messes up that plan, IMO.  Now, I'm not sure what they'll do.  It's true that him meeting with an untimely death might arouse suspicion, but what real choice do they have?  The risk of him having the information that Paige provided is too great to allow him to survive even 24 hours, IMO.  His wife was home too, right?  It seems like Paige asked to speak with him, so I take it that Wife answered the phone.  So, wife may have been told immediately upon Pastor hanging up.   I see no way the two of them survive throughout the night, IF the Centre had their phone bugged and overheard what Paige said.   Perhaps a gas leak or explosion of their house would not arouse suspicion. lol

 

While the Pastor could interpret the comments about her parents being Russian in an innocent sort of way, that's just too speculative to allow to dangle around until the Kenya trip, IMO.  

 

If the Centre did not overhear what Paige said, then there is some leeway.  I guess we'll have to trust that the writers come up with some explanation that Pastor Tim keeps the information to himself.  But, knowing how he has behaved thus far, I don't buy that he would sit on it.  I would imagine he would use it somehow to his benefit.

The big problem with killing Tim is that I don't see how that doesn't lead to Paige going to Stan, the FBI counterintelligence officer who lives right across the street.  Try to make it look like an accident or whatever, Paige isn't an idiot -- I'm sure she could make the connection between her revealing to Tim that her parents are spies and his sudden, immediate death thereafter.

[sistermagpie]

The big problem with killing Tim is that I don't see how that doesn't lead to Paige going to Stan, the FBI counterintelligence officer who lives right across the street.  Try to make it look like an accident or whatever, Paige isn't an idiot -- I'm sure she could make the connection between her revealing to Tim that her parents are spies and his sudden, immediate death thereafter.

 

 

For dramatic purposes she would probably make that connection, but I don't think it would be unbelievable if she didn't. Paige isn't an idiot but she obviously doesn't really understand the danger of the situation. She's grown up loved and cared for and doesn't really live with real fear. She told her pastor about her parents thinking she could just trust him to keep the secret so obviously she has a very different view of the situation than people actually in the game.

 

I don't think they will kill him, but if the phone was bugged and the Centre took him out on their own she might not be paranoid enough to think it was a hit. She might simply trust that her parents didn't even know she'd told and people get into car accidents or whatever.

 

Not that I think this will be the story--I think Philip and Elizabeth will wind up choosing not to kill him to keep from hurting Paige, though the Centre would be nuts to not watch the guy closely. Or they might actually let Paige keep it as a secret from her parents with their trust in her being a weak spot for them that will come out later in an unexpected way. The main issue here seems to be that Paige operates in a completely different world than her parents with totally different priorities and assumptions.

Edited May 9, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Guest]

The big problem with killing Tim is that I don't see how that doesn't lead to Paige going to Stan, the FBI counterintelligence officer who lives right across the street.  Try to make it look like an accident or whatever, Paige isn't an idiot -- I'm sure she could make the connection between her revealing to Tim that her parents are spies and his sudden, immediate death thereafter.

If it happens, I expect her to make the connection and for that to be part of the reasoning behind killing Tim.  I don't think a 15 year old would turn in her parents for it, though.  Complaining to your pastor that your parents are liars and turning them into the FBI for an offense that would get them a firing squad are worlds apart.  I imagine she'd be thinking of doing what's in Henry's best interests, too.  Which would mean learning to keep her mouth shut.  

[SeanC]

If it happens, I expect her to make the connection and for that to be part of the reasoning behind killing Tim.  I don't think a 15 year old would turn in her parents for it, though.  Complaining to your pastor that your parents are liars and turning them into the FBI for an offense that would get them a firing squad are worlds apart.  I imagine she'd be thinking of doing what's in Henry's best interests, too.  Which would mean learning to keep her mouth shut.  

She's doing a lot more than 'complaining', and the reason she's speaking to Tim is because she trusts him more than her parents at this point.  I really have a hard time seeing her just stomaching that the organization her parents work for (and will continue to work for) murdered her mentor, when, even more than the average citizen, she lives right next to somebody who could help her.

[Guest]

How would it help her to orphan herself and her brother, though?  

[Ina123]

I just binge-watched all 3 seasons in about 2 weeks.

 

I still kept waiting for someone to say, "Oh, and BTW, she had a mole on her upper lip...right in the middle of her lip."

 

Otherwise, I enjoyed the show, but I can tell you I was a very bright and politically astute 15 year old. However, I was the opposite of Paige and very conservative. I'd have grabbed Henry and been at Stan's door asking for protection in a NY minute.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ina123

[Inquisitionist]

Sorry if I missed discussion of this earlier in the thread, but I'm just now catching up on the end of S3. It was not clear to me what tipped off Oleg that Zinaida was working for the Soviets.  It seemed to be tied in some way to the directive Arkady read to his staff prohibiting assassinations on American soil -- which would include Zinaida, I assume, but that doesn't seem like enough info to conclude that she's on the Soviet side.  What did I miss?

[sistermagpie]

Sorry if I missed discussion of this earlier in the thread, but I'm just now catching up on the end of S3. It was not clear to me what tipped off Oleg that Zinaida was working for the Soviets.  It seemed to be tied in some way to the directive Arkady read to his staff prohibiting assassinations on American soil -- which would include Zinaida, I assume, but that doesn't seem like enough info to conclude that she's on the Soviet side.  What did I miss?

 

 

I believe it was that Arkady was referring to Oleg's ambush and threatening of Zinaida and Oleg knew it, which means Zinaida reported the incident to them. He was warning people off her.

[Inquisitionist]

Ah, thanks.  Too much time between watching the ambush episode and the finale.  ;-)

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:28 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I really enjoyed that. Paige's storyline has been building towards that all season.  She is a deeply  honest person who just couldn't handle the fact that her parents are basically lying liars who lie and went to a person who she thinks she can trust.  Who knows maybe she can.  P&E may have to kill him next season and it may be a object lesson for Paige.  

 

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:45 AM, sistermagpie said:

I hope so. Because Elizabeth's right--everyone lies. Including Paige. She had no trouble telling Henry to keep his mouth shut about her hitchhiking when he might have wanted to come clean. Now she can't handle not telling people her parents are Russian because that makes her a liar. If Pastor Tim told her some secret she'd keep it in a second.

 

Totally in character, though--and in line with plenty of Christians, especially Christian teens. Very focused on not doing the things "bad people" do--like deal drugs, steal or lie. She was never impressed with Elizabeth's opening salvo about how they broke the law because it was the right thing. (Pastor Tim breaks the law, sure, but so that he can get properly arrested!)

 

I hadn't thought about it before but I do think there's a significance that she says they're Russians--she's still focused on her personal life all the way rather than thinking about espionage, except in that espionage might also make them lie. She and Elizabeth are so alike no wonder they're terrible when it comes to comforting each other. Everything about that trip for Paige was about herself and what she thought of her mother instead of getting a greater understanding of Elizabeth.

 

And this woman didn't think she might spill the beans? It's not even about how badly Paige feels, it's about how clueless she is about danger as an American teen. She didn't at all understand how important it was to keep that secret. I assume she maybe thought she was doing fine just by keeping it to "they're Russians."

 

I wonder if Pastor Tim would just confront them about that, also not understanding the whole situation--they'd have a hard time killing him still because of Paige.

I agree more Sistisnagpie.

I remember a novel by Milan Kundera where it was compared the different meanings of the words. To Frans "to live in truth" means not to lie, hide nor whitewash whereas to Sabina, a Czech, it means that one has no audience as a person then mudulates his actions according to it. Therefore, Frans will destroy the border between public and private whereas to Sabina a person who loses her privacy loses all.

I think that whereas to Elizabeth and Philip suffer from the great distance between their public persona and who they "really" are, Paige makes a mistake believing that everything must be revealed in public, forgetting how deceitful she herself has been and not realizing what a sin is to betray her parents (I mean, betray them for lying to her - it would be another matter if she knew their actions).             

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 7:25 AM, gwhh said:

How they get grandma to the meet in the first place? Even if you just drove her across the border that would draw a lot of attention to them from west Germany counter intell people!

Mom and daughter was on there own passports as far as I could tell (but I was getting the feeling from there KGB) handler it may have been a fake one)!  If someone got a photo of them and sent it around to the intell agency (FBI, CIA).  And ask the simple question, why was the KGB meeting with these two people?  It would be all over for them! 

Why would West German counter-intelligence in be interested an old lady visiting West Berlin? How would they know it was KGB action? They can't know all KGB men nor cars.

Len Deighton's hero, a British agent Bernard Samson, visited East Berlin several times and was believed to be a German living there.  

Edited May 13, 2017 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 10:28 AM, Umbelina said:

Stan was just promoted to "keep doing whatever you think is needed" and told he didn't report to Gaad anymore, basically skipping over Gaad's head.  It's going to cause a lot of office tension I'm sure. 

Yes, and even more, now he has an official backing not to report to his superior nor act according to the law, there can be dangerous results. 

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 10:58 AM, kikaha said:

Stan's machinations unearthed a Soviet spy who was getting access to some of the highest levels of US intelligence.  His machinations opened the door to turning a Soviet intelligence officer who is vastly more important than Nina ever was. 

That's true, but Stan did it for personal reasons: in order to save Nina - and he doesn't even now realize that Nina was a double-agent.

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 2:50 PM, SimoneS said:

I love Oleg, but he was always a fool to trust Stan. I still think that this does not end well for Stan. I only hope that Nina and Oleg end up together.

Yes, Oleg was a fool. Still, he has a good heart - he is too good for Nina. May she rotten in Siberia.

On ‎23‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:57 PM, Cardie said:

Elizabeth listening to the Evil Empire speech calls back to the dying old lady telling her that her rationalizations are just the things evil people say to justify the evil things they do. I wonder if the message will ever resonate with Elizabeth. It already has with Philip, without him ever receiving it in such an unvarnished way.

It was evident that Reagan's speech arouse Elizabeth's fear of war which is stronger in Russians than other peoples because of WW2. 

To me Reagan, while  speaking to Evangelicals, spoke against the Christian concept of men that all men are sinners, by claiming that only the others are evil, thus making the well-know splitting: I can consider myself good as I am reflected all evil to the others. In thus, Reagan and Elizabeth are alike.    

On ‎24‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 2:18 AM, RedheadZombie said:

Elizabeth and her mother - Each season I care less for Elizabeth, but KR can get me with her vulnerability and tears.  When she told Philip he wouldn't like her mother, it seemed like a rare moment of true reflection.  I would have liked for the meeting to result differently.  Rather than reinforcing her militant stance, I wish it would have forced her to question if it was worth it.   When her mother said, "I had to let you go.  Everything was at stake.", I thought to myself - Wow, not even an ounce of regret.  I wondered if Elizabeth was taken aback, hoping her mother would acknowledge her sacrifice, or even say she wished it had happened differently.  I don't know why I was surprised, she obviously learned her militant stance at her mother's knee. 

How could a woman who has had a hard life that nobody in the West can even imagine behave otherwise?

Remember the ANC quy who burned the apartheid quy and hoped that his sons would become fighters.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:37 AM, henripootel said:

Like as not, Zinaeda wasn't sent here to gather much of anything but to fob off a bit of rot on us.  In real life, a couple of 'defectors' were almost certainly sent here with information designed to either discredit previous genuine defectors (by contradicting them or suggesting that they were plants) or sow dissent by confusing the US about what the USSR did and didn't know.  At least one planted seeds of doubt about moles in the CIA (and elsewhere) which James Jesus Angleton (head of Counterintelligence) became utterly obsessed with, leading him to ransack the place and crippling it for years.  Zinaeda was likely one of these, sent to drop hints and spread disinformation, something the KGB was extremely good at.

Yes it was, and it would be good for awhile to drop murders and the like and make a seemingly sophisticated but in the end as deadly plot about disinformation.  There were the plot where "rape" destroyed reputation and credibility of the Polish dissenter but the same can be done only with words.

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 0:07 AM, sistermagpie said:

But plenty of parents have encouraged their kids to fight battles that they think are worthy fighting even if it might kill them. It's certainly what she was taught. I've started liking Elizabeth's father so much more since her mother's cold dismissal of him as a traitor to the Communist cause and a coward because he ran away in battle. Imagine your wife having that little compassion for you because you were afraid! 

Because the official judgment that was directed also againts the families, it should demand a very disinterested person to feel compassion towards a husband whose desertation made you and your child pariahs both materially and mentally.  

That said, "desertation" may have been defined otherwise and therefore not punished or punished less by other armies. 

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 3:39 AM, Cardie said:

Elizabeth's mother saying that everything depended upon her becoming KGB and then an illegal is only speaking hard facts. With a deserter husband, her life and her daughter's hung by a thread. The only way to rehabilitate the family is to make this extraordinary commitment to the homeland. Now, Mom may in fact have been a true believer who was horrified by her husband's deeds, but even if she weren't, she'd play it that way to the daughter she was giving over as a whore for the KGB, to put the situation at its most crass but most accurate too.

That's quite true. Plus, if they weren't evacuated but lived under occupation, they would have been double pariahs.  

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 3:01 AM, AGuyToo said:

Even if Elizabeth and Philip were uniformed soldiers, some of the things they do could be classified as war crimes. War has laws, meant to differentiate it from murder and mayhem. One of those laws makes targeting civilians a crime. Another bars sexual abuse of both civilians and military personnel (e.g., statutory rape of a 15 year old -- which, I realize, Philip hasn't committed yet but which still seems a distinct possibility).  For Elizabeth and Philip, where is the line? What laws pertain (in their own minds)?

That's quite true, but in the war there are spies and desants operating in the enemy area, cathering intelligence and making sabotave. As they don't wear uniforms and because their acts, they don't have the right to become POWS but were executed when caught.

Although all states have spies, the Soviet Union was (and Russia is even nowadays) unusual in it that the spies were presented as heroes, having statues and marks.  

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:33 PM, sistermagpie said:

And Stan's still doing that to an extent in that he's still focused on his romance with Nina, a relationship he doesn't actually understand. Nina herself seems to spend little time these days thinking about Stan and Oleg. She, like Philip, is more focused on herself and asking how long she can keep doing this and gets advice from someone who can understand. Stan, meanwhile, is still in this fairy tale where if he rescues the princess he's the big hero again and redeems himself and gets the bad guy (Oleg).

It's quite funny that Stan hasn't even suspected that Nina played with the Soviets against him.  

[Roseanna]

Having now watched three seasons, I must confess that one thing has been begun to bother me. No, not murders or other things that some here find so disgusting, but that P&E seem to be allaround and have so many skills: they have several camouflage personalities, use sex, ecruit people, make burglaries, steal military secrets, murder people. In fact, they seem to do everything and get the Soviets any information they need.

I am not an expert in spycraft, but I suppose that there are several groups that all have special skills. The same people doesn't pretend to love secretaries and commit murders. 

Of course I understand that this is a show but still I want to say that concentrating so much on violence, some other aspects are ignored. Disinformation is already mentioned. On the other hand, a society could become so paranoid that any criticism of one's society would wake suspicion of Communism (f.ex. Hoover's FBI).

One of the matters that the Soviets were skillful was recruiting so called influential agents who had or would later get such a position that they could influence on the decision making. 

Foreign spies are usually seen only as harmful, but history learns that they are useful, even necessary. If one doesn't get right information and is ignorant how the opponent's sociaty works, wrong conclusions are often made and even a war can be begun. Therefore, I think that the episode about Reagan's shooting was one of the best. 

That said, it's not enough to have information, it must also be analyzed. That aspect is almost ignored in the show, except in the connection of the mail robot where it was made laughable. Yet, without analysis even right information is useless or even harmful.

Also from this POV, letting Stan to act on his own isn't a good idea. One should never trust only any source as he did with Nina. And although it seems now that he has an upper hand with Oleg, there is always a possibility that Oleg is deliberately put as a bait: Stan gets him turned, and then he inputs him disinformation.        

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:33 PM, sistermagpie said:

Sandra's been so no-nonsense during her time on the show she honestly seems like the last person who'd be sniffing around a neighbor for sex. I think in her own way she's just as interested in a platonic friendship as Philip would be--she just hasn't found a woman to get it from. In S1 she spent some time with Elizabeth but they didn't really connect. She went to EST and met this guy, but that was a romance--and she's probably right that she shouldn't have jumped from Stan to Arthur. It just would have been better to be on her own for a while. It makes sense she'd come to the sex seminar to try to separate those things.

Until now, Sandra's role has been the narrowest and most predictable of all. First, she was a housewife, who had not nothing to do but wait for her husband and teen age son to come home and ask how his day had been. Then, when she tired to wait for Stan and their marriage to change, she decided to begun an EST course and just as predictably she found a new man and moved in to him.

It would be much better for her if she worked - then she wouldn't have so much time to ponder personal problems. But evidently this wasn't needed for the plot. And now she is a good opposite to Martha who had job (and who was good at it) but lacked love.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Roseanna
correcting

[Roseanna]

I rewatched the beginning of the the first season and I must admire how intelligently this show has been written and how long the themes are.

The theme about lying was already there in the P&E's relationship: Philip became angry when he learned that, by "sharing your deepest thought" with Gregory - to him it meant that Elizabeth had lied to him. To her, it was her life with Philip that had been a lie - because she couldn't stand it, she went to Gregory: she fell for him and could be herself with him. However, Elizabeth had guts to open up to Philip, explain how she had felt at that time and that now she is fallng for him. 

When P&E had been mutilated by KGB to confess that they were traitors, Philip discoverrf that it's because Elizabeth had earlier told something about him which had arisen KGB's suspicions and she admitted that she had. We know that as we have seen the earlier seen the cene where Elizabeth was asked if her earlier suspicions about Philip had been strengtened, and she answered that they had been wrong, thus keeping secret that Philip had suggested that they would defect. In this scene, when she was at last emotionally near to Philip, she was loyal to him, not to KGB.  

Also, there was the scene in the shop where a middle-aged man who had a young girl with him made a pass to 13-year old Paige. Philip became so angry that he went to his home, mutilated him and threatened him. With Kimmie, Philip is endangered to become like the man he despised. 

People here seem to be quite sure how the characters would react, if they will betray or not. I, on the contrary, think that one can never know that even about oneself. People make different decisions in different circumstances.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 6:33 PM, sistermagpie said:

And Stan's still doing that to an extent in that he's still focused on his romance with Nina, a relationship he doesn't actually understand. Nina herself seems to spend little time these days thinking about Stan and Oleg. She, like Philip, is more focused on herself and asking how long she can keep doing this and gets advice from someone who can understand. Stan, meanwhile, is still in this fairy tale where if he rescues the princess he's the big hero again and redeems himself and gets the bad guy (Oleg).

Nina is the protagonist from whom it's hardest to know what she really thinks. We see only what she talks and acts and so far they can be opposites whereas Philip and Elizabeth sometimes talk what they really think. 

Nina told Evi that she had presented to two men (Stan and Oleg) a version of herself that these men wanted to get.

I was earlier suspicious that Nina wanted to betray also Anton, that all her fair words not bein able to keep on were only meant to gain his confidence. But basically, one can never know beforehand. People can act differently in different situations. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎4‎.‎2015 at 0:11 PM, albaniantv said:

After that trip to see Elizabeth's dying mother was hyped for multiple episodes, besides regretting all the time they had lost, the only statement the mother makes is something like " I had to let you go, everything was at stake."  

It was not the only thing. The mother first said that she had missed her daughter every day and Elizabeth said the same. What Elizabeth's mother said was the same as a parent can say during the war. In Russia, some women fought.

There has also been said the meeting lasted only a few minutes. But that is what we were shown - and we can't really know that we saw all of the meeting.