S03.E13: March 8, 1983

[Bannon]

 

I remember disagreeing but I'll have to admit I was wrong. One part of me doesn't feel sorry for Paige, she started snooping around in season 2 and she demanded answers and now she finds she doesn't like what she knows? But on the other hand, she's just a kid whose parents don't take her religion seriously and so don't appreciate the burden they've placed on her. On balance, they should've lied to her; some version of the truth, witness protection or some such.

 

I don't understand why a 15 year old, upon examining her parents obvious dishonesty for an extended period of time, and then asking for some answers,and then being told that the parents were involved in activities which could result in the children being wards of the state, as the parents do their life sentences (even ignoring how making Paige an accessory endangers her), can be expected to react in any other way but furious anger. Frankly, that's the reason the story arc requires such a huge suspension of disbelief, would the KGB be so ignorant of human psychology and physiology as to not completely expect a 15 year old to react in this manner?

A couple of the reviewers are thinking the same thing.

 

Do  you mean playing Oleg?  If you do, yes, payback is a bitch for Oleg.  Although I think Oleg might prefer to defect.

No, I suspect that Gaad was lying to Stan when he told Stan that he was recommending, to the Director of the FBI, that Stan be fired and investigated. Gaad plays the bad cop, and then Stan gets a lifesaver thrown to him. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by maraleia

[Umbelina]

Gaad wasn't lying.  He was overruled.  Gaad is pissed at Stan's behavior over the past year or so, and obviously both he and Aderholt suspect him.

 

The Assistant Attorney General just handed Gaad his ass and gave Stan carte blanche. 

[Bannon]

Well now we finally have a good reason to kill off Pastor Creepyhair. Guess he won't be coming back from Kenya.

I'm hoping next season that Paige is spirited away in a car, blindfolded, and delivered to an out of the way spot where Granny gives her a talking to that scares the shit out of her. And makes her keep her damned mouth shut.

The meeting with Elizabeth's mother was meh. I was surprised she knew Paige's name. I guess the Center didn't have time to phoney up a "nice life" for her mother in Russia for Paige's (and maybe even Elizabeth's) behalf so they dragged a dying woman to West Berlin?

Yay for a Stan win. Although I don't know what game he's going to play on Oleg now. Oh well, he and Henry seemed happy.

I wanted to hug Phillip. He seemed so lost and alone and Elizabeth would rather listen to Reagan. Her cold hearted stare at the end, with Phillip practically curled into a ball of misery in the background, was chilling.

I'm hoping next season that Paige figures out a way to get paid for selling out her serial killing espionage agent parents, and goes off to live in the 90210 with Henry, and 10 million, as they have a mash up prequel with some cultural icons of the '90s, in their preadolescence. Imagine the look on Elizabeth's face, as she gets her 30 minutes of tv a week in Federal lock-up,and the channel is tuned to "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous", showing Paige and Henry climbing out of their Ferrari, in front of their Beverly Hills mansion, as Robin Leach unctuously gives their bios! 

Gaad wasn't lying.  He was overruled.  Gaad is pissed at Stan's behavior over the past year or so, and obviously both he and Aderholt suspect him.

 

The Assistant Attorney General just handed Gaad his ass and gave Stan carte blanche. 

You didn't see him being overruled. You assume it. You may well be right, but that isn't the only way to write it.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[chocolatine]

Henry seemed happy and Stan needs company. Besides Stan is way much better as a guardian (in their eyes) than that pastor.

 

That's not the point. P&E already neglect Henry by rarely being around, and now they don't even care to spend time with him when they are around. Just because Stan likes to play the occasional board game with Henry doesn't make him an on-demand free babysitter, and his message clearly sounded like he wanted the Jenningses to come get Henry as soon as they got home. 

[Umbelina]

Stan did say he'd bring Henry home later if they didn't come pick him up though. 

 

Bannon, I don't see another way to "read" it.  ???  Gaad isn't exactly high or even secure on the FBI higher-ups list after letting his office be bugged, and not using the vault regularly during sensitive conversations.

 

Stan was just promoted to "keep doing whatever you think is needed" and told he didn't report to Gaad anymore, basically skipping over Gaad's head.  It's going to cause a lot of office tension I'm sure. 

[mrsdalgliesh]

Ack.  A whole post (which I can now pretend was brilliant) eaten by the intertubes.  Oh well.   All I really wanted to say was that this season felt like two things:  (1) an AMC-manufactured "season" which is really just the first half of one; and (2) a repeated illustration of the futility of most spy games.  Nina isn't spying like she was supposed to, Stan isn't getting NIna back, the prized defector is actually a spy, the mailbot bug yielded nothing, the trip with Paige actually pushed her further away from her parents...

 

I can now see Stan's creepy interest in Henry being a prelude to his being asked to spy on Henry's parents; after all, he's apparently now the go-to guy for being friendly with the rezidents.  Now Henry can be a pawn and have a plotline of his own.  Or maybe it won't get that far.  est (which in my experience had only caused my violin teacher to miss my senior HS recital) looks to improbably be a step in Philip's road to defecting.  Meanwhile, Paige is off to Kenya* and maybe Pastor Tim will wait for that trip (and her "safety" away from her parents) to spill the beans, and it will be a race to see if arrest or defection wins.  Of course, nothing in this story is going to win.  It's a bloodbath, metaphorically and/or literally, no matter what.  Tragedy is a comin'.

 

Anyway, the whole season felt like place setting for next season.  The third movement of Sibelius' 2nd.  Expertly done while being completely meaningless without what follows.

 

*what were the politics of Kenya in the 80's?  Can Paige be snatched from there by the Motherland?

Edited April 23, 2015 by mrsdalgliesh

[Bannon]

Stan did say he'd bring Henry home later if they didn't come pick him up though. 

 

Bannon, I don't see another way to "read" it.  ???  Gaad isn't exactly high or even secure on the FBI higher-ups list after letting his office be bugged, and not using the vault regularly during sensitive conversations.

 

Stan was just promoted to "keep doing whatever you think is needed" and told he didn't report to Gaad anymore, basically skipping over Gaad's head.  It's going to cause a lot of office tension I'm sure. 

The best espionage fiction has a consistent theme; absoutely nothing is as it appears on the surface, and everybody lies to everybody, constantly. With this in mind, it would be a good idea for Gaad to have gone to his superiors and said "I've told Beeman that I want him fired, but I actually like the idea of trying to turn Oleg, assuming we can be sure, which we can't, that Beeman didn't plant the bug in my pen. Why don't you tell Beeman that you've overruled me, and that he has great leeway to pursue things as he pleases, and that he can go directly to you if he is obstructed. We can compare what he says to me, and what he says to you, and you can tell him things that he thinks you are not telling me. We thus move on turning Oleg with the best asset for that purpose, while we can keep Beeman better observed,and have a better way of manipulating him, if need be."

[Umbelina]

Interesting idea, and anything is possible, but in this case, to me anyway, this horse is just a horse, not a zebra.

 

Gaad will be lucky to hold on to his job, and I think the tension that will cause in the office will make a far better story.

[Former Nun]

I've now seen several other people respond with what I was  going to say: she only seems to trust Pastor Tim.

 

 

This is where that "only" gets writers into trouble.  She only seems to trust Pastor Tim...or  She seems to trust only Pastor Tim?

[chocolatine]

Stan did say he'd bring Henry home later if they didn't come pick him up though. 

 

He said to come pick Henry up or to give him a call and he would send Henry over. He wasn't going to send Henry home to an empty house.

Edited April 23, 2015 by chocolatine

[Bannon]

Interesting idea, and anything is possible, but in this case, to me anyway, this horse is just a horse, not a zebra.

 

Gaad will be lucky to hold on to his job, and I think the tension that will cause in the office will make a far better story.

Well, one of the weaker elements in this season was the portrayal of the FBI reaction to the bug's discovery. Agent Taffett would have everybody hooked up to polygraphs on day one, and everybody's life woud have been throughly turned upside down, way beyond what was portrayed. The idea that they would allow the robot to go out to a shop for service without being thoroughly swept for bugs on its return, is just ludicrous. Tension with Gaad wuld be great, but that doesn't mean Gaad can't be an effectively conniving s.o.b..

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[kikaha]

I think that I now officially hate Stan. I'm not happy that the Deputy Attny General (or whoever the big shot is) saved his ass. John Boy had every right to be angry. And all of his machinations still didn't save Nina...at least for now.

 

 

Stan's machinations unearthed a Soviet spy who was getting access to some of the highest levels of US intelligence.  His machinations opened the door to turning a Soviet intelligence officer who is vastly more important than Nina ever was. 

 

I agreed completely with the higher-up who not only saw that, but rewarded it. 

[LotusFlower]

That's not the point. P&E already neglect Henry by rarely being around, and now they don't even care to spend time with him when they are around. Just because Stan likes to play the occasional board game with Henry doesn't make him an on-demand free babysitter, and his message clearly sounded like he wanted the Jenningses to come get Henry as soon as they got home.

I didn't think his message implied that at all. And the shot of them showed Stan to be having fun. I don't think the relationship is about showing or using Stan as a babysitter, but rather that Henry is a stand-in for his own (mostly absent) son.

[RedheadZombie]

I hope so. Because Elizabeth's right--everyone lies. Including Paige. She had no trouble telling Henry to keep his mouth shut about her hitchhiking when he might have wanted to come clean. Now she can't handle not telling people her parents are Russian because that makes her a liar. If Pastor Tim told her some secret she'd keep it in a second.

Totally in character, though--and in line with plenty of Christians, especially Christian teens. Very focused on not doing the things "bad people" do--like deal drugs, steal or lie. She was never impressed with Elizabeth's opening salvo about how they broke the law because it was the right thing. (Pastor Tim breaks the law, sure, but so that he can get properly arrested!)

.

I feel the need to break up my response.

1. I don't think it's possible to compare what a thirteen year old girl, left hanging away from home and responsible for the care and welfare of her younger brother (for the upteenth time), does in reaction to being failed (again) by her parents, to forty year old adults who commit murder and treason playing patriot games.

I don't care if they're patriotic zealots trying to save the motherland. I don't care that this was a different time - by the way, I am exactly Paige's age, young children being left alone in the middle of night was not even close to the norm in the 80s . I don't care that Americans have also been spies.

2. Paige's need to be honest seems to be religion-based. When the hitchhiking incident occurred, Paige was still a casual atheist. I see no hypocrisy in her actions, just idealism.

3. At this point we have no idea if Paige would happily support Pastor Tim's lies. What Paige knows is that, as far as she knows, the pastor has not lied to her, unlike her parents.

4. Civil Disobedience accomplished a lot in this world, and most people did not risk jail and violence so they could be "properly arrested".

5. Yes most of us are liars, but few of us commit multiple murders and/or espionage. Lies do not carry the same weight, or people taking a pencil from work would be sitting on death row with the serial killers.

6. Unlike Paige, Henry was not curled up in a ball, tormented by the need to confess to his parents about the hitchhiker. Paige expecting Henry to maintain a years old lie, is not comparable to expecting Paige to keep a devastating lie about her parents, whose job just happens to be the destruction of her country.

Edited April 23, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[kikaha]

I didn't think his message implied that at all. And the shot of them showed Stan to be having fun. I don't think the relationship is about showing or using Stan as a babysitter, but rather that Henry is a stand-in for his own (mostly absent) son.

I agree, and also that Stan is standing in more and more for Henry's (sometimes absent) father.  Besides the personal issues, this raises the chances that Henry innocently lets drop something that casts suspicion on his parents. 

[ruby24]

Boy, given how Stan thinks he's so great at nabbing the right people (and he kind of is, as he was right on about the spy woman this year), I can't wait to see his reaction when he finally finds out about P&E being under his nose this entire time.

 

I'm thinking though that when he does find out it's going to be through a confession, not by him catching them. I'm betting he's going to be needed to initiate a defection storyline somehow (that's how I would write it anyway). And then we could get all these scenes of Stan and Philip having to interact after the truth comes out- that'd be so great, I hope it happens. It would seem too tempting to resist.

[Ellaria]

Stan's machinations unearthed a Soviet spy who was getting access to some of the highest levels of US intelligence.  His machinations opened the door to turning a Soviet intelligence officer who is vastly more important than Nina ever was. 

 

I agreed completely with the higher-up who not only saw that, but rewarded it.

 

Yeah...yeah and his intent was to trade her for Nina, his true love. This will probably be a matter of disagreement but Stan has not been written with a lot if consistency. I am completely underwhelmed by his actions and how it led to where we ended up last night. It all seemed a little convenient. Nonetheless. I like Noah Emmerich and am hoping that next season will expand Stan's role.

[txhorns79]

I wonder if Paige realizes that Pastor Tim is obligated to inform the authorities of a crime like that being committed. It almost makes it seem like P&E really didn't convey just how illegal what they're doing is.

 

Why would he be obligated?  I can't speak specifically to the religion, but I know the law basically treats that kind of conversation as sacrosanct.  Now that isn't to say Pastor Tim couldn't report what he was told anyways, but I don't think there is any real obligation on his part to report anything. 

[bluebonnet]

I'm not sure that Pastor Tim would have any reason to think a crime has been committed.  So far, all Paige has said is that her parents are Russians and that they lie and say they aren't.  Using different names than the ones given at birth isn't necessarily a crime.  Pastor Tim has no reason to suspect that the Jenningses, who may have been born Russian, are anything other than immigrants who just don't want to be known as immigrants.  

[ToastnBacon]

The best espionage fiction has a consistent theme; absoutely nothing is as it appears on the surface, and everybody lies to everybody, constantly. With this in mind, it would be a good idea for Gaad to have gone to his superiors and said "I've told Beeman that I want him fired, but I actually like the idea of trying to turn Oleg, assuming we can be sure, which we can't, that Beeman didn't plant the bug in my pen. Why don't you tell Beeman that you've overruled me, and that he has great leeway to pursue things as he pleases, and that he can go directly to you if he is obstructed. We can compare what he says to me, and what he says to you, and you can tell him things that he thinks you are not telling me. We thus move on turning Oleg with the best asset for that purpose, while we can keep Beeman better observed,and have a better way of manipulating him, if need be."

That's pretty good!

As long as they didn't have Stan know exactly what they were doing. If he did, it would turn into something hillarious like the iocane poison scene from The Princess Bride.

[Trillian]

Confession generally relates to personal sins/shortcomings that one wishes to admit to in order to attain some absolution.  Telling the pastor about the wrongdoings of someone else wouldn't really fall under the umbrella of confessional confidence, and, even so, at least in the Catholic religion, priests are not always strictly bound by those confessionals when a serious crime has been committed.

A little OT, but my understanding is that, for Catholic priests, the Seal of the Confessional is absolute. But it doesn't apply to things said outside of actual confession (eg on the phone). And Pastor Tim and Paige are not Catholic at any rate

[kikaha]

I'm not sure that Pastor Tim would have any reason to think a crime has been committed.  So far, all Paige has said is that her parents are Russians and that they lie and say they aren't.  Using different names than the ones given at birth isn't necessarily a crime.  Pastor Tim has no reason to suspect that the Jenningses, who may have been born Russian, are anything other than immigrants who just don't want to be known as immigrants.  

 

Maybe not yet, but as soon as Pastor Tim speaks in more depth with the distraught Paige, I imagine the whole truth will come spilling out.  P&E need to nip this one in the bud almost immediately to avoid disaster. 

[SimoneS]

Great season finale with a suspenseful cliffhanger. 

 

Poor Paige. I did not think that she would spill her parents' secrets. Unfortunately, she has likely signed Pastor Tim's death warrant. I hope that this is the catalyst to Henry finding out the truth. I expect that his reaction will the opposite of Paige. I can see him killing Pastor Tim to protect his parents. He is their natural spy offspring. Too bad the Center did not wait for him instead of pushing Elizabeth to tell Paige,

 

Elizabeth with her mother was so well done. Seeing her dying mother and listening to Reagan just confirmed Elizabeth's belief in communism. She will always be the true believer in the family. She can't relate to Phillip's constant doubts.

 

I love Oleg, but he was always a fool to trust Stan. I still think that this does not end well for Stan. I only hope that Nina and Oleg end up together.

Edited April 23, 2015 by SimoneS

[whiporee]

Is there are chance that Pastor Tim works for the Centre? If the goal were to turn Paige and eventually Henry, it would be a good plant -- give her an alternative adult to turn to, and then he and his wife could slowly turn her after she trusts them completely. After seeing what honey trapping did to Jared, I could certainly see them using another way in, and Pastor Tim would have been a pretty good place to start. 

[SimoneS]

Is there are chance that Pastor Tim works for the Centre? If the goal were to turn Paige and eventually Henry, it would be a good plant -- give her an alternative adult to turn to, and then he and his wife could slowly turn her after she trusts them completely. After seeing what honey trapping did to Jared, I could certainly see them using another way in, and Pastor Tim would have been a pretty good place to start. 

 

I wondered about this possibility, but Pastor Tim seemed so sincere and annoying. Who knows though. They could go this route.

Edited April 23, 2015 by SimoneS

[DrSpaceman]

Was it just me or meeting grandma just a little anti climate!? I expect a lot spy tricks (disguise, hinding in car trunks, etc) a fool out operation. As the KGB moved them to meet grandma behind the iron curtain.

How they get grandma to the meet in the first place? Even if you just drove her across the border that would draw a lot of attention to them from west Germany counter intell people!

Mom and daughter was on there own passports as far as I could tell!

I thought the entire trip over to Germany to meet her was anticlimactic, including the meeting between the three of them. At the end I was thinking "Seriously, thats it" They fly over, meet her for a few minutes, fly home. ???? Big build up for not much

Why would he be obligated? I can't speak specifically to the religion, but I know the law basically treats that kind of conversation as sacrosanct. Now that isn't to say Pastor Tim couldn't report what he was told anyways, but I don't think there is any real obligation on his part to report anything.

Plus we don't really know she has told him anything other than her parents are Russian.

I don't think just any conversation between clergy/religous people and a church member is considered confidential however.

[John S]

When they showed Paige crying on her bed, looking at her phone, I just kept saying "Uh Oh". Then they just kept showing Elizabeth watching the TV and Paige looking at the phone, dialing the number, and then talking to the pastor, I kept expecting SOMEONE to enter her room, interrupting her - but no one came.

What a tense few minutes. That was well done.

Now does she tell her parents that she told, that she can't live with those lies anymore - or maybe the pastor tells them - or maybe he doesn't tell anyone.

Strat-O-Matic football was a very addictive game. It was a board game but it was probably the forerunner of the electronic games, like Madden.

[Bannon]

 

Yeah...yeah and his intent was to trade her for Nina, his true love. This will probably be a matter of disagreement but Stan has not been written with a lot if consistency. I am completely underwhelmed by his actions and how it led to where we ended up last night. It all seemed a little convenient. Nonetheless. I like Noah Emmerich and am hoping that next season will expand Stan's role.

The poor fashion in which the Stan character has been written is the show's biggest weakness for me, and has nearly ruined the show for me at times. A brilliant premise, however, can suffer a lot of abuse in execution. Hopefully, the writers can get their sh*t together, and get better going forward.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Bannon

[shura]

Now does she tell her parents that she told, that she can't live with those lies anymore

 

That is an excellent question. Can she lie to them (by not telling them) when the main reason she told Pastor Tim is precisely that she has this general problem with lying? Wouldn't she pretty much have to come out of her room and tell them, thereby signing Pastor Tim's death warrant?

[DrSpaceman]

One confusion I had though, Sandra met Arthur at EST, correct? Now they're in a relationship. Why does she still feel that she can't open herself to him, allow him to truly know her? He's gone through a bunch of these seminars just as she has, I assume, so you'd think they'd have the language and be on the same page about openness, honesty, need for connection. 

 

Didn't they mention this was a special seminar on the sexual aspect of relationships, as evidenced by the hilarious confession of the woman about her husband going down on her.?  I thought thats what I heard, so maybe she isn't in a place yet where she can open up sexually (I can't imagine she ever would with stan stan the robot man.......Data from star Trek showed more emotion than him) with her new boyfriend and is just learning how, but he isn't taking this particular class?

[lucindabelle]

Yeah I still don't uy it from Paige I guess because I don't limit Paige to what we've seen on TV. These are her parents, she knows that talking could get them killed. I realize were supposed to think her only takeaway from the scene with grandma was to worry about herself and indeed her lines were written that way but even that made no sense to me. She's seeing a tearful and sad reunion between her mother and her own grandmother.nhownsuddenly does she assume grandma "let" her mother go?

I would think she'd have a lot more questions for Elizabeth about why and what. To me if all feels as contrived as the Id killing his family did.

I guess. Y talking to the pastor she is also metaphorically killing her family, at least the first kid was driven by sex. This? I don't buy it at all.

[TimWil]

OK, so they didn't end up in EAST Germany but at least I got the "Germany" part right!

Edited April 23, 2015 by TimWil

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Did anyone notice that Elizabeth pretty much lied to Philip about Paige, she was trying to reassure him that everything was fine when she actually noticed (and confirmed it with that conversation at the airport) that Paige is far from fine. What's more she comes back home and finds Philip at the end of his tether. Reagan's speech strengthened her resolve though. But what did it do to Philip's?

  

Oh Boundary, that is a piercing observation.  Thank you.  (Sorry, Board on Board.  But dang, I missed all this, and it's crucial.) 

Edited April 23, 2015 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[FormerMod-a1]

I didn't mind them "leaving" Henry at Stan's house.  I figured it was so they could have some privacy when Elizabeth and Paige returned.  And then when she just begged off Philip wanted to "reveal some of his true self" to Elizabeth.  I don't think it was supposed to be that late, so it didn't seem odd to me.

[bluebonnet]

Yeah I still don't uy it from Paige I guess because I don't limit Paige to what we've seen on TV. These are her parents, she knows that talking could get them killed. I realize were supposed to think her only takeaway from the scene with grandma was to worry about herself and indeed her lines were written that way but even that made no sense to me. She's seeing a tearful and sad reunion between her mother and her own grandmother.nhownsuddenly does she assume grandma "let" her mother go?

I would think she'd have a lot more questions for Elizabeth about why and what. To me if all feels as contrived as the Id killing his family did.

I guess. Y talking to the pastor she is also metaphorically killing her family, at least the first kid was driven by sex. This? I don't buy it at all.

Why would Paige think that talking would get her parents killed?  The only thing P & E have said to her is that they would go to jail if she talked- jail, something Paige has been taught is sort of glamorous.  I doubt Paige has any idea that her parents are murderers and that they can be killed for what they know and what they could tell.  "We work for our country, the Soviet Union" is hardly a confession of everything they have done.  This just doesn't connect.

 

I assume the reunion with the mother/grandmother lasted much longer and we didn't see because it would have been distracting for them to have Russell speaking Russian so poorly.  It's reasonable to think that things the grandmother said was translated for Paige's benefit.  The grandmother did let Elizabeth go.  In fact, she pushed it.  I dont see why Paige would want to ask more questions when her mother doesn't say the right thing, and what Paige hears her mother says is basically that her mother wouldn't fight to keep Paige near her.  That's pretty heartbreaking for any teen, especially one who has abandonment and self-worth issues like Paige.  

[Chaos Theory]

When a 15 year old asks for the truth they expect something like "your father is having an affair." Or "we are separating but it is not your fault", or at worse "mom is going into rehab." You don't expect we are Russian spies and that great childhood you think you had is just one great big lie, oh and don't tell anyone especially your brother." Paige was bound to break.

Oh and PS Elizabeth and Reagan really deserve each other.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[SunnyBeBe]

I think Martha is alive, as Philip and Elizabeth said.  Plus, I checked weeks ago to see if she was scheduled to appear in last night's episode and she was. I guess her scene was cut out in editing.  Since the writers have provided another culprit for the pen plant, I see no reason why they would have the character turn herself in and especially off camera.  That's juicy stuff that I would think they would want shown. Unless she's going to be playing Clarke, but I don't think that's likely.  

 

What I didn't get was how they connected the message that the defector sent revealed her to be a Soviet Spy.  Can someone explain that?  

 

I found the timing of Paige's breakdown and revelation to Pastor Tim to be very odd.  She acted like she had just been required to do something outrageous and deceptive, but in reality that was not the case.  She is getting honest answers and the TRUTH that she wanted.  All that whining to Pastor Tim just seemed fake to me.  She may just be 15, but she certainly could have appreciated the consequences a little better, IMO.  I believe that Gabriel may have bugged their phone line and is monitoring the calls for this type of problem.  I bet that a car was sent over to Pastor Tim's to address the matter.  As long as the writers say Pastor Tim is just what he professes to be, then I guess I can't assume he is a Soviet who helping in this turn of Paige, though, that would be a great story.  Imagine how betrayed she would feel if that were the case.  

 

The IT guy that Philip killed had a toy collection.  Wasn't there another asset from a couple of seasons ago who also had a toy collection?  He was friends with the murdered family.  

 

My biggest question is why Philip is attending those "truth" seminars.  Is he really into it or is a mission?  I couldn't tell.  I did think that the proposition by Stan's wife seemed totally out of left field.  Why would she have said that? Made no sense to me.  

 

Is Stan being played or is he really getting what he wanted?  I'm not sure.  Maybe, they are setting him up for a fall.

[maraleia]

I feel the need to break up my response.

1. I don't think it's possible to compare what a thirteen year old girl, left hanging away from home and responsible for the care and welfare of her younger brother (for the upteenth time), does in reaction to being failed (again) by her parents, to forty year old adults who commit murder and treason playing patriot games.

 

Paige is 15 BTW.

[ruby24]

They found out she was a spy because Stan and Oleg were the ones who set up the threat of her, and now the Rezidentura is getting messages from the Centre warning people off "unsanctioned" assassination threats. So she obviously got the message back to them.

[lucindabelle]

I think Martha is alive, as Philip and Elizabeth said.  Plus, I checked weeks ago to see if she was scheduled to appear in last night's episode and she was. I guess her scene was cut out in editing.  Since the writers have provided another culprit for the pen plant, I see no reason why they would have the character turn herself in and especially off camera.  That's juicy stuff that I would think they would want shown. Unless she's going to be playing Clarke, but I don't think that's likely.  

 

What I didn't get was how they connected the message that the defector sent revealed her to be a Soviet Spy.  Can someone explain that?  

 

I found the timing of Paige's breakdown and revelation to Pastor Tim to be very odd.  She acted like she had just been required to do something outrageous and deceptive, but in reality that was not the case.  She is getting honest answers and the TRUTH that she wanted.  All that whining to Pastor Tim just seemed fake to me.  She may just be 15, but she certainly could have appreciated the consequences a little better, IMO.  I believe that Gabriel may have bugged their phone line and is monitoring the calls for this type of problem.  I bet that a car was sent over to Pastor Tim's to address the matter.  As long as the writers say Pastor Tim is just what he professes to be, then I guess I can't assume he is a Soviet who helping in this turn of Paige, though, that would be a great story.  Imagine how betrayed she would feel if that were the case.  

 

The IT guy that Philip killed had a toy collection.  Wasn't there another asset from a couple of seasons ago who also had a toy collection?  He was friends with the murdered family.  

 

My biggest question is why Philip is attending those "truth" seminars.  Is he really into it or is a mission?  I couldn't tell.  I did think that the proposition by Stan's wife seemed totally out of left field.  Why would she have said that? Made no sense to me.  

 

Is Stan being played or is he really getting what he wanted?  I'm not sure.  Maybe, they are setting him up for a fall.

ITA about Paige. Sorry, I just found it a contrived bit of writing to lead to a cliffhanger finale, and jumping shark as we did with the retrofitting of teen killed his family when the actor had not played it that way, because he didn't know, which means we now have to believe the kid was not just a murdering teen but hey! Olivier!

I realize most people don't share my opinion of this and that's fine, but I just don't elieve tat Paige would willingly go to meet grandma and then decide she can't handle it. She's had a whole life with her parents. It's a lot to take in, yes, but I think most teens would frantically be trying to make themselves and parents fit the situation, seeing moms pain would make you feel compassion, and solidarity. I do not buy it at all.

Stra to magic football is a long game, like monopoly.

[Dev F]

What I didn't get was how they connected the message that the defector sent revealed her to be a Soviet Spy.  Can someone explain that?

 

Zinaida sent a message to her handlers that someone in the KGB (actually Oleg in disguise) was threatening to assassinate her, not knowing that she was one of their agents. Not long after, the rezidentura received a new policy from the Center that such unauthorized threats were now forbidden. To Oleg, that was sufficient confirmation that Zinaida was working for them, because otherwise how would they know -- or, more importantly, why would they care -- that an unauthorized threat had taken place? (Of course, he's discounting the possibility that the Center was pissed about some unrelated off-the-reservation operation, but for whatever reason he apparently considered that unlikely.)

 

The IT guy that Philip killed had a toy collection.  Wasn't there another asset from a couple of seasons ago who also had a toy collection?  He was friends with the murdered family.

 

Yep, Emmett's agent Fred had a stockpile of model airplane kits -- though he'd bought them for Jared, not to play with himself.

 

A little OT, but my understanding is that, for Catholic priests, the Seal of the Confessional is absolute. But it doesn't apply to things said outside of actual confession (eg on the phone). And Pastor Tim and Paige are not Catholic at any rate

 

True, though other clergy do also receive protection for confessional conversations. This particular conversation is in a gray area, I think, but it's not like a judge is trying to decide what evidence to admit in their trial; Philip and Elizabeth would be fucked if Pastor Tim went to the authorities regardless of whether the information was ultimately deemed to be protected.

 

The only real question is whether Pastor Tim himself would deem the conversation to be privileged and hold his peace. And that probably has less to do with the niceties of religious or secular law and more to do with whether he thinks it would be in Paige's best interests to come forward. I could see him going either way.

[RedHawk]

I don't like the idea that we may be expected to fill in a whole lot of conversation between Elizabeth, her mother, and (via translation) Paige. I'm sure there were more tears and a painful farewell although maybe not a lot of back and forth conversation. Maybe they needed to quickly get grandma back across the border as it was all so risky to begin with. Very interesting that the meeting was forced on The Centre and, despite what Gabriel said, they complied. I can't imagine it was simple to bring her across and have that meeting with short notice, but hey, it's the KGB.

 

Paige could not understand what they were saying, her grandmother's "apology" for letting Elizabeth go, although she could of course read the body language and see it was a huge moment. She was clearly touched. The three of them making a circle was lovely. Yes, Paige is shaken to her core, and I can see her need to pray because that's her comfort now. She also sees her mother being emotionally wrung out. It's sad that she doesn't comfort her mother, yet maybe she's too accustomed to Elizabeth's coldness. Maybe she feels so alone and isolated because Elizabeth is cold. 

I think there's a chance that Pastor Tim will feel a little weird about Paige's revelation. "They're Russians!" On the very same night that Reagan makes a big speech about the Evil Empire. Will he possibly doubt her story? Think maybe she's being a teenager with an overactive imagination? Or he'll realize, yes, they are Russians who, in that era especially would not want to be known as Russian immigrants. He may assume they escaped Communism and there are valid reasons for their secrecy. Unless Paige says, "and they're SPIES!" then he might develop positive feelings toward them. Could it all fall into place in his mind? Their "godlessness" is from being raised in a Communist society, not because they're atheist Americans. He can still bring them to Jesus! 

 

If Philip and Elizabeth think fast, they can come up with a believable story to feed him.

Edited April 23, 2015 by RedHawk

[blixie]

 

Still not sure why Stan as not fired. He was sleeping with someone he was handling and was completely compromised over it

I think like the official told him, he's been able to get close to the Rezidentura in a way no one else has, which shouldn't be surprising since he was deep undercover previoulsy, and he probably has more skills that overlap with CIA/KBG than, what he's expected to do with the FBI. He also sniffed out Zinaida almost immediately, and before he went rogue in the effort to get Nina he DID bring it up to Gaad, and Gaad chose to ignore his instincts for bureaucratic reasons.

 

I know people are often hating Elizabeth for being a true believer, but it makes perfect sense to me that her political/philosophical conviction is the only thing that gets her through, through being sent away by her mother, through the shame of her father, through sex with strangers, through the killing. How much more awful is it to be Phillip who is killing people out of routine while he doubts and hates himself? JESUS. It's obvious to me Elizabeth's resolve WILL break, because the center WILL absolutely ask something of her that she can't abide vis a vis Paige.

 

 

In other words, if duty required it of her, Elizabeth could let her daughter go.  It's just not something she anticipates having to do.

 

It was careful phrasing, but I don't think it's because Elizabeth could let her daughter go, but because she wants to believe it will never be asked of her, even though clearly making Paige a spy is just exactly that in all the ways that matter. The Center always owned Paige, she was never really Elizabeth's, when she consigned her self and her soul to Mother Russia, I don't think she ever  thought through how she was sacrificing her own children too.

 

 

Right, like the KGB really has no choice there.

 

Well sure, but I actually think that with assets like Phillip and Elizabeth, that it's a handler's job to know when to give them an emotional "win". That is why they are called handlers they are meant to be managing more than just strategy. To Gabriel's credit he tried to tell the center that trying again, and so soon to loop in the child of asset, after Jared spectacularly failed, wasn't the best course of action.

 

I thought overall the episode was both anti-climactic and still great? There was so much going on, yet unresolved. Count me in as one who found the Phillip/Sandra interactions moving and laced with some mad sexual tension, and I can't say I'm totally opposed to a fling in S4, even though I love P/E united and even though I'm not sure he isn't somehow running an op on Sandra to get to get to Stan.

 

I really loved that Phillip specifically attended the sex seminars, because we know just how much that aspect of the job has eaten away at his soul, never more so than with Kimmie, putting Annalise ina suitcase, and now having all that...effort with Martha going pear shaped. I also liked the way EST was somewhat paralleled with religion, in that Sandra is still going to seminars w/o the boyfriend she met there, the script isn't isn't working, no more than Paige's praying alone was going to relieve Paige's tortured confusion and angst. 

 

I did totally figure Paige would crack under the pressure, so her calling Pastor Tim was not a big surprise, but I also can't stand Paige's religion (I also hate a similar story on The Good Wife obnoxious atheist mom v. ridiculously earnest Jesus loving daughter) OR Pastor Tim so I look forward to the center knocking him off and showing Paige that honey you are being WATCHED, and everyone you tell WILL die, or at least *could* so grow up and shut up. The only thing that could save this whole Paige mess is that Pastor Tim is already a communist, like Gregory, and was always the Center's back up for luring her in. I want to see her faith in him as the all knowing trashheap tempered FFS.

Edited April 23, 2015 by blixie

[ruby24]

There might be something to the fact that we didn't hear her tell him that they're "spies." He may not take them being Russian as necessarily the same thing, just assume they're illegal immigrants trying to escape Russia or something. But given how upset Paige is about this whole thing, maybe he could figure that out too.

 

Either way, I'm not sure that killing him can be a solution here, because it would totally destroy Paige and then they have an even bigger problem.

[Blakeston]

I have no trouble believing that someone high up would encourage Stan's actions. Because of Stan, they got rid of a spy (Zinaida), they secured the release of an asset, and obtained proof that someone from the Rezidentura has committed treason against the USSR - which will give the FBI a great opportunity to blackmail Oleg.

In light of that, I can see an amibitious employee of the Department of Justice deciding that he doesn't care if Stan broke the law, and he only cares about the results he obtained.

True, though other clergy do also receive protection for confessional conversations. This particular conversation is in a gray area, I think, but it's not like a judge is trying to decide what evidence to admit in their trial; Philip and Elizabeth would be fucked if Pastor Tim went to the authorities regardless of whether the information was ultimately deemed to be protected.

This is correct. And even if a judge determined that what Paige said is subject to privilege, the privilege would apply to Pastor Tim (if he refused to testify) and/or Paige (if her words were going to be used to incriminate her) - not to Philip or Elizabeth. Edited April 23, 2015 by Blakeston

[John S]

If someone is killed and then Paige is told to either shut up or someone else will die, possibly including yourself, she will NEVER be normal again. Her psychological problems would be immense.

Would she ever look at or speak to her parents again? How could she ever possibly love them or care whether they lived or died? She might just go bad herself, not caring what happens to her - drugs, alcohol, skipping school, acting out in school, boys, or whatever.

I don't know how a 15 year old would handle that pressure.

[ruby24]

Yeah. That's why I don't see it happening. Even if Elizabeth wanted to, I think Philip would snap before doing something he knows would destroy her. And once they find out she already confessed it to someone (no matter who it was), they will know that they cannot trust her with this at all, ever. I mean, in light of that, this whole thing is over. They have to make a decision- destroy Paige by killing her pastor and threatening her into silence, or turning themselves in, right? Try to get some kind of a deal.

 

I think Philip would go for the latter. But I'm wondering if this whole reveal is going to have immediate consequences next season, or maybe halfway through. Maybe Pastor Tim plays it cool for a while, and just tries to help Paige without telling anyone what he knows, at least at first.

[Cardie]

Elizabeth listening to the Evil Empire speech calls back to the dying old lady telling her that her rationalizations are just the things evil people say to justify the evil things they do. I wonder if the message will ever resonate with Elizabeth. It already has with Philip, without him ever receiving it in such an unvarnished way.

[fauxphysician]

re: Martha. I read a recent interview with the show runners, who said that IF Phillip (ever) killed Martha it would not be done off-camera.

Given the intensity of the Martha-Phillip scene last week, this episode needed at least a glimpse of her, doing.... whatever. Phillip's remark to Elizabeth as to Martha's state wasn't enough for me

[SunnyBeBe]

If Pastor Tim is killed, then I doubt Paige will be told that her parent's boss did it.  More than likely it would be a car accident, heart attack, accidental electrocution, animal attack, etc.  She can suspect, but she can't know that he was taken out because of what she told him.  Besides, if she's bound to be a motor mouth, she may be better off in a facility somewhere she can be watched. She can't be trusted and I'm not sure that could be changed.  Instead of grooming her, I think Philip and Elizabeth are now in damage control and survival mode.

 

I would like to believe that Pastor Tim is a plant by the Centre, but I think I've read on these boards that it's been confirmed by the writers that he is indeed just a pastor.

Edited April 23, 2015 by SunnyBeBe