S01.E18: All Star Team Up

[Oscirus]

I disagree.  It's his secret, he gets to decide who knows, and when.    His judgment should be respected.

 

I agree. I take it that you're mad at Joe since he's the one stopping Barry from divulging said secret to Iris?

 

 

Joe is concerned as a father, and his line to Eddie, "when you're her husband" was his way of saying "your opinion about her welfare will carry weight when you demonstrate you love her enough to make a lifelong commitment."    It wasn't a male thing.   It was a family thing.

 

 

Very nice defense. Well until you said it wasn't a male thing. It most definitely was a penis swinging contest. Besides if he's so confident that he's in the right, then he should stop playing games and alert her to the danger that she's in. At the very least, tell her about Dr. Wells since her life's in danger.

 

She doesn't deserve to be in the loop.

 

 

Just so I know what's being debated, what are your qualifications for being "in the loop?"

 

 

but keeping this secret from your BFF and a person you're supposed to trust the most makes zero sense.

 

It makes even less sense when you consider that Iris has a blog online detailing her exploits with the Flash.

 

Im still not sure how Barry ended up flat out supecting Wells as shady. I mean, I know Mason went missing but how can Wells be involved?

 

Barry knew that Mason was investigating Wells, it's not that big of a jump to suspect him when Mason suddenly goes missing.

[Cirien]

Lots of irritation in this thread that Barry won't divulge to Iris.    I can't recall people ragging on Superman for keeping his identity secret from Lois all those years.

 

Maybe it has something to do with this era we live in where folks are hooked on "sharing" every aspect of their lives.  

First: Superman is openly an alien from outer space. Nobody thinks he has a secret identity but because he's an alien. And even if they did, they certainly wouldn't go to the cover story being a geeky awkward guy who works in the basement of the Daily Planet. Here's there are a lot of signs that The Flash is working CCPD and some of them may know he is.

Second: Clark never told anyone about his alter ego. Barry has told everyone bar Iris.

Third: You don't think that if there was a threat to Lois's life Superman wouldn't freaking tell her???? Iris is danger because she doesn't know about the threats to her life, if she did she'd be more circumspect about her activities.

 

And when Superman got romantically involved with lots of people did rag on him.....so your point is moot

[millennium]

I'm not sure how you define Iris's "agency."   The only reason she's working for a newspaper is because of her blog and her inside track on the Flash.   The only reason she has an inside track on the Flash is because of Barry's fondness for her.

 

Compare with Lois Lane.   Lois was an established reporter before Superman came along and over the years we saw her working on many different hard-hitting projects, not simply Superman stories.   What other newsworthy story has Iris broken since she got the newspaper job?

 

IMHO, she's (so far) little more than window dressing in this show.   And she's not very likeable either.   She wasn't terribly nice to Barry when he professed her feelings for her, and almost cruel when he did it again.   Now she's emotionally brow-beating Eddie to force him to divulge a secret he's sworn to keep.   She strikes me as a brat.

[Cirien]

I'm not sure how you define Iris's "agency."   The only reason she's working for a newspaper is because of her blog and her inside track on the Flash.   The only reason she has an inside track on the Flash is because of Barry's fondness for her.

 

Compare with Lois Lane.   Lois was an established reporter before Superman came along and over the years we saw her working on many different hard-hitting projects, not simply Superman stories.   What other newsworthy story has Iris broken since she got the newspaper job?

 

IMHO, she's (so far) little more than window dressing in this show.   And she's not very likeable either.   She wasn't terribly nice to Barry when he professed her feelings for her, and almost cruel when he did it again.   Now she's emotionally brow-beating Eddie to force him to divulge a secret he's sworn to keep.   She strikes me as a brat.

Ummmm she was gentle as she could be when Barry confessed. Her tears were because that point she didn't reciprocate. And yeah she felt uncomfortable. Wouldn't you. And the second time? How about Barry was basically saying "Hey I know you have feelings for me, break up with Eddie and let's get together," He was totally disregarding Eddie in the equation. Yes Iris kissed him, yes she may have feelings for him. But the kiss was triggered by the impending tidal wave. That means she's not aware of her feelings for him just yet.

 

And she's in a committed loving relationship with Eddie. Should she throw that all away just because she might have feelings for Barry. She was absolutely right. Barry was forcing her to be the bad guy for continuing to reject him when he's the one trying to break up a relationship.

 

And yes she got a job at a newspaper because of her blog. The red streak was a hot topic at that moment, someone noted she was writing about it saw the attention she getting for it and decided to hire her. Lots of journalists start out the same way these days. Case in point Jack Monroe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Monroe. Who started off as a blogger and is now a journalist.

 

What other projects? Well she was at the mayoral re-election campaign wasn't she. And if Joe began giving her self defense lessons, presumably because he knew what kind of dangers were out after working as a cop, then he owes it to her to tell her about the threat to her life.

[FurryFury]

Lots of irritation in this thread that Barry won't divulge to Iris.    I can't recall people ragging on Superman for keeping his identity secret from Lois all those years.

 

FWIW, I can't stand Superman and never watch any media that features him, so I can't comment.

 

Iris is a one-dimensional character who's unqualified to be news reporting at a professional level and now she's petulantly using emotional blackmail to extract information from Eddie.    She doesn't deserve to be in the loop.

 

It's a closed circle. She's one-dimensional exactly because she's not allowed to be in on the secret, and as a consequence, react and develop. And really, it's not a question of "deserving". She's someone Barry has been known to trust. Why wouldn't he tell her, especially if he has told everyone else? Also, Caitlyn's characterization is even worse than Iris' - in addition to being one-dimensional (a trait even Cisco shares, although it's starting to get better) she's also inconsistent.

 

IMHO, she's (so far) little more than window dressing in this show

 

You are absolutely correct. But this isn't how it should be. She's supposed to be an important character in the mythos and Barry's long-term LI. She should be more than window dressing, and the fact that she is not is a major writing fail.

Edited April 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

What other newsworthy story has Iris broken since she got the newspaper job?

I do remember she tried to write a story when she first arrived at the paper about kids suffering from abuse I think - I may be wrong on the topic - but she was shut down by the paper because they wanted her to write about the Flash (he sells papers). She's also contributed to stories about Harrison Wells (the question she asked him at his press conference). It'd be great if the show would give us others. I'd also think that since she was covering the event the Trickster crashed, she would have written about that as well. Maybe the writers didn't explicitly point that out because they don't think people would be that picky with Iris. That they'd give her the benefit of the doubt. They clearly don't understand a segment of their audience, lol. Some will NEVER give Iris the benefit of the doubt.

Also - Iris is TRYING to write a story about Mason's disappearance, but she's been stonewalled by Barry, Joe and now Eddie. This is why them keeping this a secret from her is so enraging - they are literally taking away her agency behind her back and it's very, very ugly.

If my father interfered in my career growth like that without my knowledge I'd be very upset. He'd never do that though - he'd at least give me the information I needed to make an informed adult decision - because he trusts me. Joe and Barry's actions indicate an appalling lack of trust and confidence in someone they both claim to love. So far, Eddie seems to be the only one who thinks this is Bullsh!t.

She wasn't terribly nice to Barry when he professed her feelings for her, and almost cruel when he did it again.

Iris' reaction was a single tear dropping down her face and a look of shock. I'm not sure how you characterize that as "not terribly nice"?

What exactly did you want her to do?

Granted - I'd hoped for more than her silent reaction because I wanted insight into her thoughts at the time, but I think she was nice. Can you elaborate more on how she wasn't nice in this instance?

Honest question: can Iris do anything or be written in anyway (besides being killed off) that would make you not dislike her?

[chelsie]

There are mothers like that with their sons/daughters and their partners. That is, steamrolling over partners concerning issues. So its not exclusively a "male" thing.  I can see where others are coming from but I don't feel that it is as B/W as suggested. I have to question the decision to stick Iris with Eddie, as all it did was shackle Iris to her father.

 

I do agree that Iris should be told - although it is ridiculous that she does not considering she took a picture of The Flash which ended up on the front page of a national (?) paper; the paper clearly showed Barry's face, why did she not recognise him - because at least she'll know what she's dealing with.

Edited April 17, 2015 by chelsie

[Lokiberry]

Because you don't like her she deserves to be mistreated and Barry can't be held accountable for mistreating her? In this logic, if Barry went around murdering extras then wouldn't be a big deal, right?

You mean like Oliver did in S01 of Arrow? Kidding (not really).

[FurryFury]

I'm probably the only person who liked Oliver not having any issues with killing people. (I'd even say it was a big draw for me). I kinda hate this "Superheroes do not kill" rule. It's my one big problem with Daredevil. At least it makes sense on The Flash, considering the lighter tone and Barry's personality.

Edited April 17, 2015 by FurryFury

[marketdoctor]

 

I'm probably the only person who liked Oliver not having any issues with killing people.

 

Remind me not to make you mad :-).  But I liked that the no killing rule was something Oliver had to develop; Barry's big character development seems to be with his secret identity/whom to tell (maybe Iris!) and whom not to (Captian Cold, for example.)  The former is coming back on him; the latter might.

[driedfruit]

I'm probably the only person who liked Oliver not having any issues with killing people. (I'd even say it was a big draw for me). I kinda hate this "Superheroes do not kill" rule. It's my one big problem with Daredevil. At least it makes sense on The Flash, considering the lighter tone and Barry's personality.

 

I didn't have an issue with Oliver killing, mostly because he was innately an awful person. I could stomach that more than Barry's guantanamoing that poor girl, Shawna. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by driedfruit

[BkWurm1]

I disagree.  It's his secret, he gets to decide who knows, and when.    His judgment should be respected. 

 

Except it's not Barry's judgment guiding his decision, it's Joe.  Right off the bat, Joe made Barry promise never to tell Iris because it would be too dangerous for her to know and in the very beginning when Barry didn't really know what he was doing and it was actually a closely guarded secret, it wasn't an absurd request. 

 

In the alternate timeline Barry did tell Iris, but one could argue he had no choice or just that it was a we both might die moment. 

And I think had Iris reciprocated his feelings, he would have told her in the new timeline.  I do understand that Barry is in a tough balancing act.   Listen to the man he trusts most or tell Iris and risk interfering with her love life...except they told Eddie so that excuse is gone.

 

Really the moment that they continued to investigate the Reverse Flash they put Iris in the crosshairs.  She needs to know to survive.  THey aren't protecting her by keeping her in the dark but Joe's instincts to keep her out of what he sees as cop business - a very old and ingrained instinct - is blinding him.

 

I suppose you would object to Joe walking Iris down the aisle at her wedding because it's a holdover from olden times when fathers gave daughters away to suitors who compensated them with a few good horses or an ox.

 

Lighten up.   Joe is concerned as a father, and his line to Eddie, "when you're her husband" was his way of saying "your opinion about her welfare will carry weight when you demonstrate you love her enough to make a lifelong commitment."    It wasn't a male thing.   It was a family thing.

Walking a daughter down the isle is a tradition that the Daughter is in on.  There is no secret agenda and she has a say in the matter.  What Joe and Eddie were discussing was when did Eddie start getting to make decisions for Iris instead of Joe and the answer was when Eddie was the husband when NEITHER of them had the right to be making decisions for Iris.  Both of them were way off base in that conversation. 

 

Lots of irritation in this thread that Barry won't divulge to Iris.    I can't recall people ragging on Superman for keeping his identity secret from Lois all those years.

 

Maybe it has something to do with this era we live in where folks are hooked on "sharing" every aspect of their lives.  

Clark Kent was afraid if anyone knew his identity, they would become a target and or the person in the know would expose his secret and rob him of his normal life as Clark Kent.  He told no one and when he came to the point were he wanted to tell, he still had to grapple with his fear over acceptance. 

 

Barry knows Iris thinks the world of the Flash and he completely trusts her, so the acceptance question is moot and not telling Iris is what will allow the bad guys to target her, not the other way around.  Wells knows Barry's secret.  He also knows the people Barry most values in his life.  Iris is walking around with a target on her back and while knowing won't make her faster, it would allow her to avoid getting into circumstances where she might unknowingly share concerns with the wrong people and it would allow her to make emergency plans with Barry if her life was endangered. 

 

It is illogical not to tell Iris on every level. 

Really,... from what I can tell she [Felicity] usually joins in. It looks to me like she enjoys it when there is someone else who speaks her "language" or something similar. Yeah I guess it works better  if he has other comical characters to bounce off on, though he has Felicity over at Arrow so he hasnt been exactly alone and Felicity used to be the only one over there in a sea of broody characters. I didnt really see anyone wanting her to be chucked out of the show for that. Having "straight men" to bounce off on can be beneficial too Imo.

 

Bringing over to the Relationship thread in the Arrow forum to stay on topic

[bluebonnet]

I didn't have an issue with Oliver killing, mostly because he was innately an awful person. I could stomach that more than Barry's guantanamoing that poor girl, Shawna. 

I'm getting episodes mixed up, but did I mishear and Ray at one point actually questioned how these prisoners were cared for?  

[Trini]

That was in the Arrow episode.

[TwistedandBored]

I just love how the writers took the blame on sharing his secret with Iris away from Barry and onto Joe West. You know, Barry is the good guy after all! *Major eye roll* 

 

I blame both Barry and Joe for this situation. Barry for not making a stand on who should know his secret and who shouldn't. Joe for being an idiot over protective father. 

[quarks]

 Maybe I don't remember as well, but Superman didn't try to inhibit Lois from doing her job and thinking/making decisions for herself.

 

Superman did, in fact, try to inhibit Lois from doing her job and thinking/making decisions for herself back in the 1950s and 1960s - comic after comic had "I can't let Lois find out about this! It's too dangerous!"  Or "If Lois starts investigating X, she'll find out that Clark Kent is really SUPERMAN!"  (This was always in capital letters.) But it almost never worked, and the end result of Superman trying to keep Lois out of crap was that Lois got more suspicious, found herself in danger, had to be rescued. Then Clark would often lose the scoop to Lois, who remained the superior reporter, and Clark would, once again, lose his chance at getting Lois since the invariable result of this was to have Lois think less of Clark. In later decades this was pretty much dropped. 

 

We're seeing pretty much exactly this on the show: not telling Iris, and therefore not letting her decide for herself if she wants to stay best friends/hang out in the same city with a metahuman who has already been the target of multiple villains, hasn't protected her at all. She's been in danger several times this season. And she's getting suspicious. I don't know if the writers are intending this as some sort of commentary on the old Superman/Lois relationship, but if they are, the lesson I'm getting from it is, drop the 1950s attitudes. They aren't working.

[Sakura12]

Clark Kent wasn't running around telling everyone he was Superman, he kept or tried to keep his identity a secret. With Barry, his identity is only a secret to one person! Everyone else can know but Iris. Lets make a list of who knows about Barry,

 

Wells
Caitlin
Cisco
Joe
Stein

Stein's wife
Barry's dad
Ronnie

Eddie
Felicity
Oliver
Diggle
Lyla
Roy
Laurel
Ray
Captain Cold
Peek-a-Boo
Pied Piper

 

Why is Iris the only one that can't know? It makes no freaking sense. 

[Trini]

.... Lets make a list of who knows about Barry,

 

Taking it to the Nitpick thread.

[phoenics]

I'm probably the only person who liked Oliver not having any issues with killing people. (I'd even say it was a big draw for me). I kinda hate this "Superheroes do not kill" rule. It's my one big problem with Daredevil. At least it makes sense on The Flash, considering the lighter tone and Barry's personality.

 

Aww man - I love that about Daredevil because  it's the one comic where it makes sense, given the character's deep Catholic faith.  

 

I digress - as you were, :)

[FurryFury]

It's more that the world of the show is so dark and gritty that I feel like it simply shouldn't let Matt get away with it (while the Flash world is idealistic and light enough that Barry still can manage to do it). But sorry for the offtopic, yeah.

[catrice2]

Nope, I had no problem with Oliver killing people and wish it had never stopped. Arrow used to be a much more interesting show before the expanded the team and became so emotional. I enjoyed his being in the Russian mob and oh so many other things. I enjoyed that he did not have a serious love interest and that Diggle was his only close friend. I enjoyed his relationship with his step father.

I don't think they should have so many crossovers. Ray and Felicity seemed forced to me.

[wayne67]

I stopped watching this show after Barry locked Peekaboo in a glass prison then pushed the button and had steel come down over it and continue talking about his love life as if sentencing someone to life imprisonment in a glass cage was irrelevant. I wanted to see if maybe I should start watching again because I originally loved Barry but it still seems that they've kept most of the things that bugged me. Super prison that makes no sense, Disclosing Barry's secret Identity to everyone but Iris, Crossover characters that alter the dynamics of the show and Barry being incapable of winning a fight without being told to run faster...

[netlyon2]

It was a control thing. From the pilot, Joe has a need to control what Iris knows and does. It is overprotection gone toxic and it is endangering Iris.

 

Reverse Flash told Joe to quit digging into Nora Allen's death/murder, or else. A knife through Iris' picture isn't idle and, I would hope, not blown off. Barry knows about the threat too, yet he hasn't told his BFF and would-be love interest that her life is in danger and from who. Barry and Joe  both know now and Iris is still in the dark. How is not informing a person of a serious death threat no big? 

 

Joe has set down a pattern of overbearing "protection", that even extended to the CCPD!, and the Joe/Eddie argument was just the ugliest manifestation of it.

 

I want to unreservedly love Joe again, but I can't when he is the one who is an even bigger danger to Iris than the Reverse Flash.

 

edited because good sentence structure is good.

 

 

Really the moment that they continued to investigate the Reverse Flash they put Iris in the crosshairs.  She needs to know to survive.  THey aren't protecting her by keeping her in the dark but Joe's instincts to keep her out of what he sees as cop business - a very old and ingrained instinct - is blinding him.

And this is why I just can't deal with Joe anymore (and I'm getting to that point with Barry).  It's like the writers are playing a game of Twister in trying to make his old justifications work.  It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that the Reverse Flash didn't threaten to hurt Iris if they told her that Barry is the Flash.  Yet somehow, keeping the secret from her is keeping her safe, even as they continue to do the thing that RF threatened to hurt Iris if they do?  How does that work?

 

Honestly, Joe started losing me when Iris revealed that he uses the silent treatment to get his way, including when he found her application for the police academy.  How passive-aggressively sick is that?  Her only parent refuses to speak to her because she wants to follow the same career path that he's taken; that's just gross.  I'm about to steal a page from @quarks and start tracking the times that Joe fails as a parent and as a human being in each episode.

 

 

And I think had Iris reciprocated his feelings, he would have told her in the new timeline.

 

You know, I hadn't considered it, but that makes perfect sense.  It reinforces for me the feeling that Barry still goes along with Joe at least in part because Iris didn't fall into his arms and leave Eddie for him.  Given his past behavior, it's also hard for me to believe that he isn't enjoying, on some level, seeing his secret tear Iris and Eddie apart. 

[Actionmage]

I'm about to steal a page from @quarks and start tracking the times that Joe fails as a parent and as a human being in each episode.

 

That? Would be something cool. I used to really love Joe, but the compost bin he has left behind him as the season has worn on is getting ridiculous.

[KirkB]

Comparing Barry not telling Iris to Clark not telling Lois actually works on a number of levels. The single biggest reason was always "they'd be in danger if they knew the truth". Excuse me? Lois Lane gets in trouble nine times a day because she is a reporter who investigates things which get her into trouble, but more importantly it is fairly public knowledge that she is a friend of Superman, which means villains have a tendency to single her out specifically because of him, not because she does or does not know who he is. Iris is in a similar boat. Her blog (and later her newspaper articles) tell the public who she is, and that she apparently have some personal link to the Flash. Lois and Iris aren't in less danger because they don't know the identity of their superhero, just the opposite. The next time Bizarro kicks down Lois's door (during the period she didn't know obviously) or...well, almost all of the villains already know who he is so let's say Grodd, grabs Iris out of her car demanding she call the man in spandex, they have to send out a vague call and hope he answers. Cluing Iris in, besides being the right thing to do, would mean she could call Barry directly if she needed help.

[Impish Dragon]

That? Would be something cool. I used to really love Joe, but the compost bin he has left behind him as the season has worn on is getting ridiculous.

 

I can't help but wonder if the actors have noticed how troubling this behavior is.  Surely one or more of them would have pinged on it. 

[Actionmage]

I can't help but wonder if the actors have noticed how troubling this behavior is.  Surely one or more of them would have pinged on it.

 

I am willing to bet they do, but it's not the actors' jobs to write/rewrite the scripts. Even if the actors managed to do a take with non-offensive lines/line readings, the editor has to abide by what the director and/or producers want. The actors, unless they have any actual say-so as a producer-type, are there to be script deliverers.

 

It is a testament to the cast that we still want to like Joe and Barry; we saw how good writing could lift this from just another superhero show into a good drama with a good dose of humor. Unfortunately, there are times when the writers seem to have lost the thread. Let us in the audience in on the potentially bad things! It's the story about Hitchcock and his method of building tension. Show the audience the bomb under the table. Let us see the timer count down. The tension is if/when the protagonist(s) can find it and either disarm it or whatever other options are available.

 

Flash has done pretty well on that with Wells/RF, but not with Joe and his nearly pathological lying "to protect". That needs an explanation and it could be a great story tied into Mrs. West/Iris' mom. Yet not one syllable has been said about the lady, a picture shown/mentioned, or even an exasperated Joe saying " I wish she/your mom were/was here" around Iris, like maybe around Christmas.

 

Sorry about the rantiness; I guess I have an opinion about that. :D

[phoenics]

I keep thinking that when Iris blows her top at Joe/Barry, and express her rage at being literally hamstrung by Joe's overprotectiveness - to the point where her career path has changed THREE times! - eventually Joe will break down and admit that he's terrified that what happened to her mom will happen to her. I'm assuming of course that something happened to her.

If nothing happened to Iris' mom, then Joe's craziness makes very little sense to me and it means that there is nothing to redeem there. Because if nothing happened to make him into this overbearing patriarchal and sexist father with no sense of progressiveness (and who only seems concerned about Iris behind her back as nearly every "caring" scene we have seen with him is with Barry and not with his own daughter), then he's just a sexist boor.

That would suck.

The writers better be leading up to something with that - and if Joe drops the "because of your mom" bomb, then Iris better not let him use that as a get out of jail free card. No - she needs to stay good and mad (and not listen to either Joe or Barry and live her life to the fullest).

[Oscirus]

The problem with this show is they allowed the Iris situation to hijack the narrative. In a week in which Cisco's powers started manifesting themselves, Cisco and Caitlin finally learn how evil Wells is in real time, we finally get a competent female villain and the Atom man takes steps towards becoming the hero of the comics, allowing the Iris situation to distract their viewers is a huge fail on the part of the writers. Also, stop winking at your audience and telling them you agree with them. That doesn't help the situation.

 

I'm probably the only person who liked Oliver not having any issues with killing people. (I'd even say it was a big draw for me). I kinda hate this "Superheroes do not kill" rule. It's my one big problem with Daredevil.

 

I definitely liked what Oliver was doing. It's what separated him from every other superhero on TV. As for Daredevil, despite the tone of the show, no killing was always his thing. Hell, he delivered one of the most famous beat-downs in comic book history on the Punisher because he refused to let Punisher do his thing.

 

I just love how the writers took the blame on sharing his secret with Iris away from Barry and onto Joe West. You know, Barry is the good guy after all!

 

I think that Barry's actually the worst one in this situation.  Joe's an old fool stuck in his admittedly misogynistic ways. Barry on the other hand is using his secret identity to spy on Iris and report back to her father. Which could be chalked up to Joe's paternal hold over him if he wasn't also using his secret identity to flirt with Iris.

[Trini]

I can't help but wonder if the actors have noticed how troubling this behavior is.  Surely one or more of them would have pinged on it. 

 

 

...

It is a testament to the cast that we still want to like Joe and Barry; we saw how good writing could lift this from just another superhero show into a good drama with a good dose of humor. Unfortunately, there are times when the writers seem to have lost the thread. ...

 

 

...

The writers better be leading up to something with that - and if Joe drops the "because of your mom" bomb, then Iris better not let him use that as a get out of jail free card. No - she needs to stay good and mad (and not listen to either Joe or Barry and live her life to the fullest).

 

I don't know... the that line from Joe was so terrible (on several levels) that maybe... it's on purpose and they're leading up to something? I want to have hope. There are so many other things I like about this show; I'm trying to have patience with all the Joe/Iris issues.

[Cthulhudrew]

I remember how much people complained about Emily Kinney's acting in Walking Dead, and thinking that she didn't seem so bad to me.

 

But in this episode of Arrow, she had all of three or four lines (admittedly, three or four particularly hackneyed, cliched lines), and she couldn't deliver a single one of them with any degree of... anything. Not anger, not frustration, not triumph. Not even scenery chewing campiness. Even with the crappy writing they gave her character, she still couldn't do one iota of emoting with any of it.

 

Yeesh.

 

Definitely the weakest episode of Flash thus far. Not just because of EK; the whole thing was very bad. Ray continues to have no personality beyond "peppy but not as smart version of Felicity"; the whole plot with the bees was pretty mediocre (but then again, The Flash tends to always do better with its B plots than its A plots); and the Iris/Eddie storyline gets even more D-grade soap operatic and does neither character any justice.

 

There was some fun stuff in it, notably with Cisco and of course Tom Cavanagh always brings so many layers to his performance as Wells.

[driedfruit]

The problem with this show is they allowed the Iris situation to hijack the narrative. In a week in which Cisco's powers started manifesting themselves, Cisco and Caitlin finally learn how evil Wells is in real time, we finally get a competent female villain and the Atom man takes steps towards becoming the hero of the comics, allowing the Iris situation to distract their viewers is a huge fail on the part of the writers. Also, stop winking at your audience and telling them you agree with them. That doesn't help the situation.

 

The show would benefit from giving some of the mains a break from an episode here and there. This way, instead of extending side plots like Iris' too thin over many episodes, they could've given it a bit more focus over fewer episodes and given her character a break once in a while.

 

I don't know... the that line from Joe was so terrible (on several levels) that maybe... it's on purpose and they're leading up to something? I want to have hope. There are so many other things I like about this show; I'm trying to have patience with all the Joe/Iris issues.

 

There are pictures of Eddie and Iris holding a Tiffany ring box, so perhaps it was a sloppy way to introduce a proposal before the season's end.

[Canada]

Holy crap, I can't believe that was Emily Kinney.  She looked so old!  Terrible styling for her.

[JenMcSnark]

Not my favorite episode.  I thought Felicity was done badly.  I can see why people are annoyed when  she crosses over.  On Arrow it seems like she is much more balanced.  Here is was all stupid one-liner after stupid one-liner.  

 

I liked Cisco and Ray together and I agree with others that this show might be a better fit for him.  Shit, put him together with Iris.  He can lighten her up a little and (I think) he would be honest with her.  

 

I love Joe and Barry. 

[FurryFury]

Shit, put him together with Iris.  He can lighten her up a little and (I think) he would be honest with her.

 

I think I like this idea. Try it, show!

[Lokiberry]

I liked Cisco and Ray together and I agree with others that this show might be a better fit for him.  Shit, put him together with Iris.  He can lighten her up a little and (I think) he would be honest with her.

I know you're being snarky, but Ray's whole deal this season has been about a woman (Felicity) propping him up. The ironic thing is, he's done better when they've allowed him to interact with the male characters, Cisco and Oliver.

 

So, my counter offer is, pair him with Cisco. They have great chemistry, and Ray's a fuck ton less likely to shove his hand through Cisco's heart then, well, certain other people.

 

eta: because my original post was unintentionally dirty.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Lokiberry

[driedfruit]

eta: because my original post was unintentionally dirty.

 

LOL. Cisco would've been proud. 

 

I can't think of any characters that haven't immediately improved by being around Cisco. It's not really to Ray's credit if he shined. 

[phoenics]

eta: because my original post was unintentionally dirty.

Dang! I missed it!

[JTMacc99]

I checked out of the Iris story right around the part of dinner when Eddie said something along the lines of "can't we just enjoy the dinner?" and Iris came back with "Oh? So it's my fault? [that I'm choosing this time and place to confront you]"  Fortunately I was watching it on the DVR and could FF through the whole damn thing. Blech.

 

I have issues with Brandon Routh, in that I associate him with the character he played on Chuck.  However he did a pretty good job here. (I don't watch Arrow any more, so this is my first time with him as this character.)  Also, I guess if I can believe that attractive 23 year-old Emily Ridkards is believable as super nerd Felicity Smoak, I guess I can believe the same thing about Routh as a brilliant physicist and inventor.

[jaytee1812]

Honestly Joe, Barry and Eddie's treatment of Iris borders on emotional abuse. They basically make her think she has a problem, she's overreacting, it's almost gaslighting.

Honestly what that woman was doing with the bees is nothing compared to what Iris should do when she finds out. How they expect us to ever root for a relationship with either Eddie or Barry is beyond me.

I hope Joe retires and becomes a lonely old man with only Barry for company because Iris turns her back on both of them.

[AudienceofOne]

I checked out of the Iris story right around the part of dinner when Eddie said something along the lines of "can't we just enjoy the dinner?" and Iris came back with "Oh? So it's my fault? [that I'm choosing this time and place to confront you]"

 

 

Between that and the "do you think he's cheeattinggg on meeee" whine, I basically just despaired of the writers ever giving her character agency or respect. It's not just the other male characters who infantilise her; it's the writers. Apparently "love interest" is code for "pretty childlike trouble magnet".

[driedfruit]

Between that and the "do you think he's cheeattinggg on meeee" whine, I basically just despaired of the writers ever giving her character agency or respect. It's not just the other male characters who infantilise her; it's the writers. Apparently "love interest" is code for "pretty childlike trouble magnet".

 

Nah, you're the one baselessly infantilising her.

 

Her live in boyfriend has suddenly become distant and not having sex with her and won't even admit anything is up. Cheating is the most logical explanation. What's she supposed to think? That her whole family is conniving together behind her back?

[AudienceofOne]

Her live in boyfriend has suddenly become distant and not having sex with her

 

 

Yeah.  Two days ago. Seriously?

[driedfruit]

Yeah.  Two days ago. Seriously?

 

No, two weeks.

 

Eddie saw it as a problem. Iris saw it as a problem.

[sjohnson]

I never figured out the code for "Iris and Eddie did it!" That's why I didn't know that they'd stopped. 

[Oscirus]

I wonder if Barry would've tried to help Eddie if he knew about Eddie's lack of sex problem.

[Trini]

The latest entry in the Chronicles of Cisco tumblr features a couple of the robo-bees.

[driedfruit]

I never figured out the code for "Iris and Eddie did it!" That's why I didn't know that they'd stopped. 

 

Eddie was freaking out to Joe about how they hadn't been doing it for two weeks.

[CabotCove]

In a week in which Cisco's powers started manifesting themselves,

 

Did they?

Edited April 22, 2015 by Conell

[Trini]

They really did make Barry dumb in this episode. Suddenly, he can't figure out how to exit a building? And he actually didn't do anything to the defeat the threat, this time. It was actually kind of ridiculous, in the warehouse scene, to have the Flash standing around, waiting to get attacked. Ray and Cisco were the bright spots, though.

 

Logically, Brie Larvan should have figured out that the Flash is Barry.