S05.E01: The Wars To Come

[The Mormegil]

Didn't D&D swear up and down that there would never ever be any flashbacks on the show?

 

 

They just wanted to put off using them as long as possible, Bryan Cogman and GRRM both said that the Past would have to be addressed at some point in the show and Flashbacks are better than endless exposition.

 

D+D were going to introduce the use of Flashbacks in Season 1 as they had filmed the death of Brandon and Rickard Stark but decided not to use it (I'm still hoping it will show up at some point).

 

 

I've read the books but my memories of the finer details are, shall we say, lacking. Is the kid at Castle Black (the one from the village who went on to kill Ygritte) prominent in the story there? It seems like they're cutting to him an awful lot, and I'm trying to figure out if it's just to show a child's perspective on what's going down at the Wall or if he's going to be a player down the road.

 

 

 

 

Show Only character but they probably will give him something major to do. If he gets disillusioned enough with Jon I could see him being one of those who takes part in "For the Watch".

 

 

As to Maggie only mentioning 3 Children for Cersei it can be handwaved away as only three who survive into infancy. Afterall given that Cat had never heard of the black haired child it's likely he died very soon after he was born.

 

We know the Wildlings don't even name a child till it's 2 years old and apparently according to the World of Ice and Fire Aerys II had a number of children between Viserys and Dany but they were all either stillborn or died in the crib, so even Royal babies who die quickly don't get mentioned in the Histories.

Edited April 13, 2015 by The Mormegil

[blixie]

 

But knowing that she was told at an early age that she would die at the hands of the valonqar and she believes that to mean Tyrion explains so much about her relationship with him and her increasing slide into paranoia with no one left to keep her in check.

 

And of course letting us know she murdered Melara reminds us that she is monster who loves killing. ::sarcasm::

 

I was underwhelmed, though I'm glad to see the slicing and dicing of the book 5, even when it was a detour I enjoyed (Mance surviving to work with Stannis). The only thing on the show I've consistently loved is Arya,and there was no Arya so I was pretty let down. 

 

And yes it's stunning just how much of the stuff in the books isn't relevant to the big picture and ultimate resolution of this story, not that I didn't realize that when I read three hundred pages about diarrhea in Mereen.

[glitterpants]

At first I thought White Rat was Grey Worm, which made me realize how attached I was to Grey Worm (don't die!). 

 

Loras wasn't very developed in the books but we still had a clear sense of who he was and that person was a lot more interesting than bumbling, vapid TV!Loras who apparently has nothing better to do than stay in bed all day with the prostitute/servant/spy who manipulated him last season.

 

Varys is great.

[Guest]

I liked the stuff with Stannis and god help me, with Mel and Jon. I hope to hell they are doing the Rattleshirt fakeout, because otherwise, what a waste of a good actor.

 

The flashback was fine, although if ever there was evidence that D&D are 12-year-old boys at heart, it came out in their need to characterize Maegy the Frog as a sexy witch. I half expected her to rip off her dress so they'd be able to up the tit quota in the episode.

 

Not a fan of the 180 Brienne characterization at all. I get that when they cast her older, they had to change stuff, but the Brienne I remember from the books is a kinder, gentler person who would not be this abusive to Podrick.

[mac123x]

This episode felt like the show was trying to answer show critics who have complained about excessive female nudity by making this one all about Naked Guys!  See!  We've got them too!

 

Ha, that's exactly what I was thinking.  Of course, I thought fully clothed (with enough cleavage to show his battle scar) Lancel was much sexier than the fully naked guys.  I seriously thought the'd recast Lancel until he spoke. 

 

The "your birthmark looks like some places in Dorne the Show will be visiting this season" exposition was painful.  Daario mentioning fighing Norvoshi priest (one of whom we'll meet next episode) was a little less ham-handed.  Though I might have been distracted during that scene by Dany's god-awful wig.  It looked like a nylon mop.

 

When Jon was talking to Mance, explaining he could either join Stannis or die, I expected Jon to offer a third choice.  "You led your people south so you could hide behind the wall.  If you want the Wall for protection, you're going to have to help us defend it against the true enemy".  Thus sowing the seeds for the Nights Watch / Wildlings alliance.  I also thought they might be doing Melissandre's switcheroo with Mance and Tormund, but I guess not.  I'll miss Mance, but Melissandre's motivation for doing it in the books never made sense to me.

 

I really liked Sansa / LF in the carriage.  She's obviously becoming a player, and Sophie Turner is really good at it.

[Constantinople]

Didn't D&D swear up and down that there would never ever be any flashbacks on the show?

Words are wind.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why is everyone assuming we've seen the last of Mance? Granted my memory of books 4 and 5 is hazy, but I'm pretty sure book readers were lead to believe he was burned at the stake as well. A lot of confusing baby switching and death fake outs happened at the wall so I hope the show manages to clean that mess up a bit.

 

I thought the episode did fine all in all in setting up events to come. Excited the show is back!

[Pete Martell]

I never found Loras to be an especially deep character in the books so his show portrayal doesn't bother me.  There are no wars for him to fight at the moment, his life is at Court trying to help in the ascension of his family.  I cracked up at hearing Olyvar trying to arrange a trip to Dorne, because based on his experience it would be wonderful.  Between Loras and Oberyn I guess we know who the "better" man is/was.   Though as of now I think that scene was used to again display just how close Loras and Margaery are, as well as the fact that she's cooking up a plot against Cersei.

 

I have no attachment to book Loras, or to Loras and Renly, but I still find the writing for Loras incredibly stupid. There is no way that I believe Olenna or even Margaery would tolerate this from Loras - not just him being so nonchalant about being sexually involved with other men, but with Olyvar in particular, when one of them must have worked out that he's the one who ratted out the marry Sansa plan. 

 

And once again, as with the tedious, endless smirks and winks with Oberyn last season, sex between men is something to be leered at and laughed at. Something that defines you, just as lame Benny Hill-type innuendo defined Oberyn until his last few episodes, when they had to build the character up so people would care when he died. 

 

I think it's insulting and the worst writing I've ever seen on this show, which is saying a lot.

[Maximum Taco]

Why is everyone assuming we've seen the last of Mance? Granted my memory of books 4 and 5 is hazy, but I'm pretty sure book readers were lead to believe he was burned at the stake as well. A lot of confusing baby switching and death fake outs happened at the wall so I hope the show manages to clean that mess up a bit.

 

I thought the episode did fine all in all in setting up events to come. Excited the show is back!

 

Well it might be because

 

Ciarin Hinds has told us that he's done on the show in an post-mortem with EW: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/12/game-thrones-mance-rayder-dead

 

Now he does allow for the possibility that Mance might be alive, but he also says that it likely will not involve him if Mance is indeed alive.

 

But who knows? It could be a fakeout

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Pete Martell]

Ha, that's exactly what I was thinking.  Of course, I thought fully clothed (with enough cleavage to show his battle scar) Lancel was much sexier than the fully naked guys.  I seriously thought the'd recast Lancel until he spoke. 

 

It would have helped if we hadn't already seen these guys a few times. My main memory of this Daario is that he doesn't have much ass. I didn't need a reminder. And Olyvar is pleasing enough, but this is the third time. 

 

At this point it just sort of feels like getting pandering out of the way, even as we're likely to continue to see T&A all season long. 

[elzin]

I did a lot of thinking last night (sick kid, no sleep). So what's the big deal about boobs?  I mean, did we really need to see the ones we saw?  It's literally just for titillation.  But the thing is... it's not 1987 anymore and HBO was the only place where you could see nudity without having to pay another human for a movie or magazine.  Two seconds of googling and there's all the boobs anyone could ever want.  Now, I'm not a prude or anything.  I just don't get what the big deal is about nudity in this day and age.

 

It's not even sexual nudity in the show, so it's literally boobs for boobs' sake.

 

There was some partial male nudity, but... Ok, I read this great essay last year about how even the nudity that straight women might like is still shot for a male audience.  So we get Loras and whats-his-name, but it wasn't exactly hot for me. Throwing in a few naked male bums seems to be trying to throw a bone (so to speak) to straight female viewers, but they're not done in the same erotic, loving, almost pervy way the naked ladies are done for the straight guys.  I don't know. I just... the sex on here just seems to be so much like that SNL skit with the 13-year old boy behind the camera.    

[nksarmi]

When Jon was talking to Mance, explaining he could either join Stannis or die, I expected Jon to offer a third choice.  "You led your people south so you could hide behind the wall.  If you want the Wall for protection, you're going to have to help us defend it against the true enemy".  Thus sowing the seeds for the Nights Watch / Wildlings alliance.  I also thought they might be doing Melissandre's switcheroo with Mance and Tormund, but I guess not.  I'll miss Mance, but Melissandre's motivation for doing it in the books never made sense to me.

 

I really liked Sansa / LF in the carriage.  She's obviously becoming a player, and Sophie Turner is really good at it.

 

 

I am assuming they don't drop the Nigths Watch/Wildling alliance completely - maybe they are just waiting to set Jon up as Lord Commander first? 

 

There are so many plots that I just don't mind that they are dropping because they felt like a waste of time in the books - like the Iron born plot (though I guess they could surprise me and put that back in, but I really hope not).  I am surprised Young Griff was a total red herring as I kind of expected him and Dany to marry and take the Iron Throne together in the books, but if his story is just distraction in book 6 - I'm not sorry to see it go.

 

This season seems to be dropping and accelerating enough stories that I think they just might make it through all that matters of books 4 and 5 this year which tells you how many tangents he got off on in those books.  They took two seasons to do book 3 because it all matters but can cram 4 and 5 into one while they are inventing new stories for the likes of Sansa?  Odd - just odd.

 

One of the only stories that have dropped that I'm sad to see go is Jamie making peace in the Riverlands because it added depth to his character and helped redefine him after losing his hand.  It also served the purpose of distancing Jamie and Cersei.  Now I'm just not sure what they are going to do with him.

 

When it comes to Margery not being completely innocent - I don't mind her trying to figure out a way to survive Cersei (she'd have to be an idiot not to!) but I do hope they make her mostly innocent and sympathetic if they do the plot where both women are put on religious trial because it was delicious to be able to start to see all of Cersei's evil start coming back on her in that plotline.  If they have Margery do any real serious plotting - it might make Cersei a little sympathetic and I just don't want that because even though this actress dials back her evil a notch or two - she is still an awful person and the last Lannister I really want to see suffer lol.

 

Lastly, if they make enough changes that we don't have to wonder about Jon's fate at the end of this season - I might love these showrunners forever.  Saving Jon is the only reason I can tolerate the Red Witch right now - because in the books, I see her as Jon's only chance. 

[Shriekingeel]

This show still has the most ham-handed dialogue. "A force to be reckoned with" repeated made me cringe. We know Loras isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but can't we have a little more subtlety?

[Bannon]

This show still has the most ham-handed dialogue. "A force to be reckoned with" repeated made me cringe. We know Loras isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but can't we have a little more subtlety?

I understand what you are saying, but when writing a character of very limited itellect, abandoning subtlety can be the best choice. One of the more consistent traits of dumb people is the incessant mouthing of the same cliches', over and over.

[Pete Martell]

I understand what you are saying, but when writing a character of very limited itellect, abandoning subtlety can be the best choice. One of the more consistent traits of dumb people is the incessant mouthing of the same cliches', over and over.

 

I wish that would explain the consistently poor writing for Littlefinger, but I assume we're supposed to think he's intelligent.

[bluebonnet]

Why is everyone assuming we've seen the last of Mance? Granted my memory of books 4 and 5 is hazy, but I'm pretty sure book readers were lead to believe he was burned at the stake as well. A lot of confusing baby switching and death fake outs happened at the wall so I hope the show manages to clean that mess up a bit.

 

Well, in the books, we could go back and see clear hints that the person who was burned might not have been Mance.  We did not receive that in the show.  What we have is a great scene between Jon and Mance, Mance expressing his fear of dying by fire, Mance walking steadfastly to the pyre, Mance saying nothing about how he wasn't the real king.  We have no focus on Melisandre and her necklace.  In short, we can go back to this scene to see that things might have been a little off like we could in the books.  Mance is dead.  

[Constantinople]

This show still has the most ham-handed dialogue. "A force to be reckoned with" repeated made me cringe. We know Loras isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but can't we have a little more subtlety?

 

I understand what you are saying, but when writing a character of very limited itellect, abandoning subtlety can be the best choice. One of the more consistent traits of dumb people is the incessant mouthing of the same cliches', over and over.

Except Loras isn't always a moron. He's just a moron when the writers find it convenient for him to be a moron.

Perhaps it's meant to be some kind of he's awkward around women who aren't his sister BS because, you know, gay, so he can't be expected to hold a minimally intelligent conversation with a woman.

[Bannon]

I've not read the books, but I like these threads, because I'm more interested in exploring what options writers have, and how they execute them, than I am in any particular choice a writer makes. I'm not going to read the books, because the genre isn't my favorite, largely because supernatural stuff has never been interesting to me in the least. Having said that, I've enjoyed the show, because the politics and cultural elements of the show are fascinating.

 

I can handle the dragons, because they can be viewed as a military technology that has the potential to turn this world upside down, and is not easy to manage for the holder of the technology. The stuff north of the wall, and Stannis' sorceress, are problematic for me, but I think the potential story line of Stannis incorporating the wildlings into his realm, and how the wildlings make that pragmatic choice, could be extremely interesting, so if the execution of Mance can be made to advance that element, I welcome it. I really dislike the way death is ambiguous, from  what I've seen in the show, and from reading the comments of bookreaders. I'd prefer undead Catelyn to not appear. I hate the idea of FrankenMountain. I really, really, hope Mance does not turn out to be not dead. 

 

Except Loras isn't always a moron. He's just a moron when the writers find it convenient for him to be a moron.

Perhaps it's meant to be some kind of he's awkward around women who aren't his sister BS because, you know, gay, so he can't be expected to hold a minimally intelligent conversation with a woman.

I'm probably not remembering accurately, but my impression is that he has never been portrayed as being notably sharp.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Bannon

[Kobo Duram]

So what's the big deal about boobs?  I mean, did we really need to see the ones we saw?  It's literally just for titillation.  But the thing is... it's not 1987 anymore and HBO was the only place where you could see nudity without having to pay another human for a movie or magazine.  Two seconds of googling and there's all the boobs anyone could ever want.  Now, I'm not a prude or anything.  I just don't get what the big deal is about nudity in this day and age.

 

It's not even sexual nudity in the show, so it's literally boobs for boobs' sake.

 

There was some partial male nudity, but... Ok, I read this great essay last year about how even the nudity that straight women might like is still shot for a male audience.  So we get Loras and whats-his-name, but it wasn't exactly hot for me. Throwing in a few naked male bums seems to be trying to throw a bone (so to speak) to straight female viewers, but they're not done in the same erotic, loving, almost pervy way the naked ladies are done for the straight guys.  I don't know. I just... the sex on here just seems to be so much like that SNL skit with the 13-year old boy behind the camera.    

 

 

I don't agree with your complaint.

 

Nudity is part of life.  I have no complaint about the amount of nudity they showed this episode.

 

It fits with the story line, and quite frankly, makes it more realistic to me.  

[Maximum Taco]

 

Except Loras isn't always a moron. He's just a moron when the writers find it convenient for him to be a moron.

Perhaps it's meant to be some kind of he's awkward around women who aren't his sister BS because, you know, gay, so he can't be expected to hold a minimally intelligent conversation with a woman.

 

Isn't he though?

 

Even in the books Loras isn't depicted as very smart. He's seen as gallant, and charming but never actually smart. He might be a moron.

 

When in the show is he shown as smart? And how many of those times can be explained by him just following along with Olenna/Margaery's plan?

[Pete Martell]

When in the show is he shown as smart? And how many of those times can be explained by him just following along with Olenna/Margaery's plan?

 

He seemed smart in the first season, manipulating Renly.

 

Since then it's been a steady decline into "lol he's gay! He likes dick!! And he's so PRETTY and wants to do girly things, lol!!!"

[Maximum Taco]

He seemed smart in the first season, manipulating Renly.

 

Since then it's been a steady decline into "lol he's gay! He likes dick!! And he's so PRETTY and wants to do girly things, lol!!!"

 

Yeah, but that's just as easily explained as someone else (*cough* Olenna *cough* Margaery *cough*) just telling him to convince Renly that he'd make a good king.

 

And then his charm just takes over.

 

Not that I'm cool with the marginalization of gay characters. And to that end Renly was actually depicted as pretty capable IMO. But Loras might actually just be a pretty dumbass dancing on his aunt and sister's strings.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Pete Martell]

I think that there are certain parts of Loras that some people fetishize a little, and I don't think the show is wrong to not stay with it blindly (for instance, I don't have a problem with him being with other men after Renly's death), but the Olyvar thing is a non-starter for me. I just don't believe he or his family would go there again. 

[LadyArcadia]

I don't agree with your complaint.

 

Nudity is part of life.  I have no complaint about the amount of nudity they showed this episode.

 

It fits with the story line, and quite frankly, makes it more realistic to me.  

 

I agree.  If we say "what's the big deal about boobs?" then we should appreciate that there really wasn't a big deal made about boobs in this episode.  They were there, in context.  That's it. 

 

I actually thought they made a more in your face statement about the male nudity on the show because of the fan complaints.  That didn't sit well with me.

 

Personally, if I were the show runner I'd be pulling my hair out right now. People complain about the gratuitous female nudity in the show - yet people still complain when it's not gratuitous.  Then, people complain about the lack of equality regarding male nudity - and now people are complaining about that!  Sheesh...

 

I don't get all the hangups on the subject.  ermahgerd berbs!

 

On a completely other note, I'm very disappointed they did not play up the Tywin is stinky storyline. Although it's not critical to the story, it was such a big deal in the books.  It would have played up the Lannister humiliation.  Also, it would have given more power to the Cersei trying to control Tommen as king.  Him puking at the funeral and her anger and disappointment that he wasn't Joff was a defining moment for me.

[Helena Dax]

I'm worried  about Loras. I like him in the books, but when he got so seriously injured I had the feeling that GRRM had no use for him anymore. I think he's going to  be one of  the casualties of this season. 

 

I don't think he's a moron, btw. I wouldn't say he's smart either, just a regular guy. In my opinion, if he looked awkward when he was talking to Sansa it was  because  he was feeling very unconfortable. Just like he feels when he has to talk to Cersei (albeit for different reasons). I don't think that part has nothing to do with intelligence.

 

I was too happy when Stannis appeared for the first time, there must  be something wrong with me.

[Spartan Girl]

As much as I would love for the show to divert for the books by having Tyrion actually get to meet/interact with Dany, I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Danny Franks]

Oh, if only the writers were willing to depart from the books so completely that they just had the two dragons cook Dany in that scene. She's unbearable and boring. A truly hideous combination. I'm guessing that the sympathetic figures in her storyline (Missandei and Grey Worm) will be killed off again this season, to further her 'emotional journey' or whatever. Meh. Her scenes in the show are now as skippable as her chapters in the book.

 

I liked the Cersei flashback, and how it gave viewers more insight into Cersei's vicious defence of her position. She really is doing this for her kids, or she at least believes she is. Jaime needs to get the hell out of Kings Landing before she decides he's a threat.

 

I really enjoy Natalie Dormer as Margaery, and any scene she's in is automatically good. Her weary reaction to Loras getting his rocks off was fun, and her imperious dismissal of Olyvar was very reminiscent of Cersei at her most arrogant.

 

Not at all pleased with the Sansa stuff either. She's either a willing conspirator or a puppet, and whichever it is, it just means more of Littlefinger, and the dreadful Aiden Gillen. Blech. More scenes to be skipped, I'm afraid. I cannot take that man seriously at all, with his hammy, am-dram performances and his blunderbuss approach to hitting an accent.

 

The stuff with Jon and Stannis on the Wall was interesting. I liked seeing Jon continue to grow, to exercise his brains as well as his sword arm. I wish they'd featured Mance more in seasons 3 and 4, to make his relationship with Jon more meaningful, but I did like that they kept the bit with Jon sparing him from the agony of burning to death. Melisandre's interest in Jon is hopefully significant of more than just her thinking he's a handsome young man.

 

I will say this, I really don't mind them changing things from the books, because I honestly don't think the books are all that anyway. They are not the glorious tomes of genre-defying genius that many claim. The trouble is, a lot of the changes they make are for things that are as misguided as what did happen in the books. There are some improvements, and a whole lot of necessary streamlining, but Benioff and Weiss have proved that they're just as likely to make a bad narrative choice as GRRM is.

[Pete Martell]

Personally, if I were the show runner I'd be pulling my hair out right now. People complain about the gratuitous female nudity in the show - yet people still complain when it's not gratuitous.  Then, people complain about the lack of equality regarding male nudity - and now people are complaining about that!  Sheesh...

 

I still don't know if it's very equal. We had a pointless full frontal shot of a woman, while they did everything but cut away to a shot of Varys doing the Electric Slide to avoid a penis being visible.

 

The nudity on this show often feels oddly self-conscious to me, never more so than last night.

[Constantinople]

Isn't he though?

 

Even in the books Loras isn't depicted as very smart. He's seen as gallant, and charming but never actually smart. He might be a moron.

 

When in the show is he shown as smart? And how many of those times can be explained by him just following along with Olenna/Margaery's plan?

He seemed smart in the first season, manipulating Renly.

 

Since then it's been a steady decline into "lol he's gay! He likes dick!! And he's so PRETTY and wants to do girly things, lol!!!"

 

 

Yeah, but that's just as easily explained as someone else (*cough* Olenna *cough* Margaery *cough*) just telling him to convince Renly that he'd make a good king.

 

And then his charm just takes over.

 

Not that I'm cool with the marginalization of gay characters. And to that end Renly was actually depicted as pretty capable IMO. But Loras might actually just be a pretty dumbass dancing on his aunt and sister's strings.

 

Not being very smart isn't the same thing as being a moron. Loras might just be average.

Loras appears to have some social IQ. In Season 1, he called Joffrey a monster and said Stannis had the personality of a lobster. In Season 2, Loras knew enough to know that Brienne wouldn't have killed Renly (I thought that was a good change from the books).

Loras's plan to make Renly king, if it were Loras's plan, might very well have worked were it not for Melisandre's smoke baby.

In Season 2, Loras pointed out to King Renly that his grace is expected to have sexual intercourse with his queen. Not exactly a blinding political insight, but apparently more than Renly thought through.

Jaime's a smart aleck, but Loras got the better of him when Jaime told Loras that Loras would never marry Cersei, to which Loras immediately quipped "and neither will you", patted Jaime on the back and then walked off.

Machievelli in the flesh? No, but I think Loras should be capable of talking to an icky girl.

As for being Olenna's stooge, I don't doubt that Loras takes direction from her, but Olenna made it pretty clear that Mace should have stayed out of Robert's Rebellion, and stayed clear of Renly's attempt to take the throne. Perhaps Olenna was just playing to the peanut gallery, but I'm not so sure.

[LadyArcadia]

I still don't know if it's very equal. We had a pointless full frontal shot of a woman, while they did everything but cut away to a shot of Varys doing the Electric Slide to avoid a penis being visible.

 

The nudity on this show often feels oddly self-conscious to me, never more so than last night.

 

Ya know, nudity is so much a non-issue for me that I actually completely forgot about that moment.  You're right. They could have shown her going to take the skirt off and him stopping her before she did it.

 

I don't know... it still feels like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. They want to be "adult" but someone will complain either way.

[Danny Franks]

Sometimes people don't wear clothes (unless they're Never Nudes, of course). Is it much more complicated than that? It shouldn't be. It's an adult show, it can have scenes with heads being smashed in and limbs being cut off, but people object to boobs, a pale arse or two and the suggestion of a swinging wang? I know which I'd take more exception to, and it's not the un-maimed flesh.

[Pete Martell]

Sometimes people don't wear clothes (unless they're Never Nudes, of course). Is it much more complicated than that? It shouldn't be. It's an adult show, it can have scenes with heads being smashed in and limbs being cut off, but people object to boobs, a pale arse or two and the suggestion of a swinging wang? I know which I'd take more exception to, and it's not the un-maimed flesh.

 

I think it's complicated mostly when the show makes it complicated. Trying to be cute by having the woman briefly drop her dress so we could get a full frontal just takes me out of the scene. Having a scene of two men in bed together only to then feverishly work to avoid any hint of the dreaded dick takes me out of the scene (admittedly it was such a terrible scene I was glad to get taken out of it anyway).

[coops]

When it comes to Margery not being completely innocent - I don't mind her trying to figure out a way to survive Cersei (she'd have to be an idiot not to!) but I do hope they make her mostly innocent and sympathetic if they do the plot where both women are put on religious trial because it was delicious to be able to start to see all of Cersei's evil start coming back on her in that plotline. If they have Margery do any real serious plotting - it might make Cersei a little sympathetic and I just don't want that because even though this actress dials back her evil a notch or two - she is still an awful person and the last Lannister I really want to see suffer lol.

I agree Cersei shouldn't come across as sympathetic otherwise the walk of shame won't have the same impact. Whether you feel sympathetic towards her during that walk or not its effect will be lessened if you have already felt bad for her because Margery was being 'mean' to her first. However for all we know Margery could be plotting in the books- we never see her POV and there are hints from the things Cersei hears Tommen say that Margery is manipulating him.

[ancslove]

I think Loras was also struggling to say something blandly complimentary about the dead guy no one actually liked. Tywin was powerful and people feared him. Loras went with the nice version of that.

[Pete Martell]

I don't think Loras would have even said anything. He knew Cersei wouldn't want to hear it. It felt like they were trying too hard for a funny scene.

[katiepotatey]

On a completely other note, I'm very disappointed they did not play up the Tywin is stinky storyline. Although it's not critical to the story, it was such a big deal in the books.  It would have played up the Lannister humiliation.  Also, it would have given more power to the Cersei trying to control Tommen as king.  Him puking at the funeral and her anger and disappointment that he wasn't Joff was a defining moment for me.

 

I had to pause it and fill my non-reader boyfriend in on this. In the book, I think Cersei acted like Tyrion had did that on purpose... He killed their dad on the toilet so that his funeral would smell terrible.

[Fen]

Enjoyed a lot here.

 

I think we saw Stannis smile (well, his 'happy' grimace) more here than in all previous seasons combined.  I like Stannis (love book Stannis), and would be happy if they've decided to do more with the character.  As for burning Mance - he has to have the pretender bend the knee in surrender.  He refused.  Keeping Melly onside requires burning people, so....  Stannis killed one man.  Mance turned down a home and living for thousands.

 

Loved loved loved Jon and the arrow.  I'll be interested to see Jon and Stannis interact more.

 

I can never muster up much enthusiasm for Daenerys' story.  It's off to see her without Jorah.

 

Sansa's face was like a mask while watching the boys fight.  I was pretty impressed.

[Tryangle]

One thing that was a bit odd was that we saw Slynt and Thorne walking around like nothing's changed; when last we saw them, Thorne had been pulled away from a fierce battle with Thormund, seemingly badly injured, while Slynt had cowered away in Gilly's room only to be discovered by Sam.

 

Did Sam allow Slynt's cowardice to remain a secret, and if so, why?

[Constantinople]

So is that idea that Sam will manipulate the Night's Watch into electing Jon as Lord Commander so Sam can be sure that the next LC won't send Gilly away?

In the book, I thought Sam did it just because he thought Janos Slynt would suck as LC.

[Maximum Taco]

So is that idea that Sam will manipulate the Night's Watch into electing Jon as Lord Commander so Sam can be sure that the next LC won't send Gilly away?

In the book, I thought Sam did it just because he thought Janos Slynt would suck as LC.

 

I think it's partially that, and the other part is Sam knew Slynt hated Jon and his companions, and Slynt already tried to kill Jon twice (first by trying to get him convicted of oathbreaking and then again by sending him to treat with Mance) so if he was LC in truth he'd probably keep trying to kill Jon. Actually as LC he could probably just pronounce him and oathbreaker and have his head.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

Maybe they're waiting for the election or execution to bring up Slynt's cowardice.

 

I agree Cersei shouldn't come across as sympathetic otherwise the walk of shame won't have the same impact. Whether you feel sympathetic towards her during that walk or not its effect will be lessened if you have already felt bad for her because Margery was being 'mean' to her first. However for all we know Margery could be plotting in the books- we never see her POV and there are hints from the things Cersei hears Tommen say that Margery is manipulating him.

 

IIRC, the things Book Margaery did were age-appropriate stuff that could help Tommen grow up to be a popular and more emotionally healthy king. Cersei's love was possessive and selfish: she didn't understand that her hunger for power, making Tommen wait because she had waited while Tywin lived, wasn't going to help him be ready to rule. Of course Margaery would benefit from a stronger Tommen, but she saw, as Book Cersei never did, that it's possible to have alliances that are mutually beneficial. Ruling isn't just about crushing everyone who disagrees with you: that's how Cersei ended up with her council of idiots and made an enemy of the Tyrells when she should have negotiated with and contained them the way Tywin had been doing.

 

I don't think Book Margaery schemed against Cersei : she underestimated Cersei's level of crazy and inability to appreciate how good the Lannister/Tyrell alliance had been for them. Show Margaery, on the other hand, is both more aggressive and less savvy (Book Margaery had to be part of the Joffrey murder plot so that she'd know when not to drink, Show Margaery was clueless). She might try to get Tommen to send Cersei back to the Rock. If she's not marrying Loras and going to Highgarden, that seems like the plan with the best chance of success.

[Constantinople]

I'm wondering how they're going to retcon Varys's enthusiasm for Daenerys with the failed assassination in Season 1.  That wouldn't be such a big deal if TV Varys had a (f)Aegon in his back pocket, but apparently TV Varys doesn't.  Perhaps TV Varys set-up the assassination attempt so that it would fail, but it was far too close to call.

 

It should be easier to explain "outing" Jorah since Varys presumably did that to keep his own cover from being blown.

[Hanahope]

And yes it's stunning just how much of the stuff in the books isn't relevant to the big picture and ultimate resolution of this story, not that I didn't realize that when I read three hundred pages about diarrhea in Mereen.

 

While I'm not a huge fan of the chunks of story gone missing, I suppose if nothing else, it will help me get through the next two-three books a bit faster, knowing what parts I can 'speed read' through.  Have to admit, I'm a bit relieved that we'll at least get the main plot of the story resolved next year, rather than in 20.

 

Lancel looked great, but that's to be expected, since its been more than a year since we've seen him and he really grew up/matured.  Sansa looks significantly older/mature too (major growth spurt will do that).  Makes me wonder how Arya's looking.  We may not even recognized Bran when we see him again (intentional or not - how's that tree fitting?), let alone Rickon.  Same with Tommen and Myrcelle.

 

They sure teased a lot with the male naked butts, but no dicks.  i really hope they do something more with Loras than this though.  I'm guessing he gets to go to Dorne

 

Are we never going back to the Iron born?  Seems like a certain king was killed 2-3 books ago.  Another 'who cares' non essential plot line I guess.

 

What are they going to do with Brienne if LS isn't around?  Maybe she helps Theon save the fake Arya (not knowing she's fake) if Mance isn't there.

 

So if there's no Mance-baby, why would Gilly need to be 'sent away' on the boat with Sam?  Or is that another plot line going by the wayside?

[nksarmi]

 

Except Loras isn't always a moron. He's just a moron when the writers find it convenient for him to be a moron.

Perhaps it's meant to be some kind of he's awkward around women who aren't his sister BS because, you know, gay, so he can't be expected to hold a minimally intelligent conversation with a woman.

I kind of took Loras' babbling scene with Cersei as he really wanted to ask her if they still had to get married, but couldn't work up the nerve to do it right then and there.

As much as I would love for the show to divert for the books by having Tyrion actually get to meet/interact with Dany, I'm not getting my hopes up.

My hopes are up lol.  I will be so sad if we don't end this season with the charming little imp telling her she needs to get her butt back to Westeros because the Iron Throne definitely needs her.

[Avaleigh]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was a bit underwhelmed. I can't really put my finger on what it is that feels lackluster. Maybe it just didn't feel like a season opener to me. 

 

I thought the actress who played young Cersei did a nice job of coming across as a snotty bitch even at that young age. I was less impressed with Maggy. 

 

On a completely other note, I'm very disappointed they did not play up the Tywin is stinky storyline. Although it's not critical to the story, it was such a big deal in the books.  It would have played up the Lannister humiliation.  Also, it would have given more power to the Cersei trying to control Tommen as king.  Him puking at the funeral and her anger and disappointment that he wasn't Joff was a defining moment for me.

 

 

I was bummed about this too. Once they didn't give a nod to the idea that Oberyn poisoned Tywin I figured it wouldn't happen.

 

I'm surprised that Mel is all in black but I kind of think it's appropriate in a way since she's at the Wall. Her hair seems darker too. Almost like Sansa's. 

 

I found it almost impossible to believe that Mance could keep from screaming for that long. 

 

Compared to the premiere of every other season this was pretty weak IMO. 

[Featherhat]

Hmm, I've never really kept track of Loras enough to really tell if he's always been like that or not. I will say that he was incredibly stupid for going back to Olyvar, he's the clear winner of "source of the Sansa leak" competition and thus an incredibly indiscreet gossip at best and at worst a spy. I do think they're hitting a lot of tired sterotypes without also showing that he is actually a respected and powerful knight.

 

On that note it was nice to see Lancel back. So getting bedded by Cersei is enough to drive a man to religious fanaticism to repress the memories. Hee. But I did enjoy that whole conversation between the two of them, even when he's got the Seven behind him, she still dominates him.

 

I think there are characters in the books that either don't appear or die on screen that might be important to the way the books unfold but who's role can be junked or amalgamated for the show (sort of like a dew characters in Harry Potter and LOTR). But I guess its a good bet that they aren't going to get anywhere near the IT or have a pivotal role that can't be changed in the Winter/Dawn storyline. 

 

I didn't mind the nudity this episode, but it did feel a bit self conscious when they went to so much trouble to cover up male genitalia but not female. I thought the scene in the brothel worked fine. Not it was "necessary" as such but the show does like to go nude and it reminded us that the unsullied were eunuchs, and I liked the 10 second bit where the prostitute takes off her clothes by force of habit and is then briefly surprised. That whole scene was actually quite effective for me, including the sudden knife.  

[Holmbo]

I really liked this episode. Mainly set up but that's what I was expecting from the first episode.
Loved everything at the wall and loved Sansa though I'm not a huge fan of LF so I hope they split up at some point so that she can have scenes without him.

I didn't mind the Brienne or Loras scene because I felt it fitted with the general theme of the episode which IMO was hopelessness. Tyrion, Mance, Loras and Brienne where all kind of in the mood of: Everything is shit and theres nothing we can do.
The only thing I didn't like was Daario. He's the new Shae for me now that she's dead. I'm not sure I will like Dany's story this season. I enjoyed it last season but this one might be too much more of the same. Hopefully Tyrion will get there as quickly as possible,

[Pete Martell]

The only thing I didn't like was Daario. He's the new Shae for me now that she's dead.

 

That's the meanest thing anyone could say about poor Shae...

[Mya Stone]

People, people...(who are talking about nudity)

Have we forgotten about the HodorDick?

Part giant, indeed, amirite?

(Apologies to Kristian Naarn if he is reading this. Or...good on you, buddy!)

Also, Alfie Allen filmed a full frontal shot when he was with the ship captain's daughter, or Ros...or maybe both? At any rate, no more of those shots can be included. (Insert poorly made Ramsay joke here.)

[Bill1978]

I agree.  If we say "what's the big deal about boobs?" then we should appreciate that there really wasn't a big deal made about boobs in this episode.  They were there, in context.  That's it. 

 

I actually thought they made a more in your face statement about the male nudity on the show because of the fan complaints.  That didn't sit well with me.

 

Personally, if I were the show runner I'd be pulling my hair out right now. People complain about the gratuitous female nudity in the show - yet people still complain when it's not gratuitous.  Then, people complain about the lack of equality regarding male nudity - and now people are complaining about that!  Sheesh...

.

 

My problem with the presentation of the male nudity in this episode is that it was framed like a pregnant actress whose character isn't pregnant in the show. After having a brief full frontal nudity of a woman at the start of the episode, when it came to the men we had legs being lifted, tables at just the right height to hide the penis. In fact, the table hide actually made me laugh out loud with how much effort was put into preventing full male nudity.