S05.E01: The Wars To Come

[Fen]

 

Loved everything at the wall and loved Sansa though I'm not a huge fan of LF so I hope they split up at some point so that she can have scenes without him.

 

I'm in the same boat.  I love Sansa, but show!LF just about makes me facepalm every time he appears.

[The Mormegil]

People, people...(who are talking about nudity)

Have we forgotten about the HodorDick?

Part giant, indeed, amirite?

(Apologies to Kristian Naarn if he is reading this. Or...good on you, buddy!)

 

 

That wasn't real 

[Luciaphile]

I can count the instances of male nudity in five seasons on one hand. Women on this show with full frontal, that's another story.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Luciaphile

[Mya Stone]

That wasn't real 

 

Sad Mya is sad. 

 

[Andromeda]

People, people...(who are talking about nudity)

Have we forgotten about the HodorDick?

Part giant, indeed, amirite?

(Apologies to Kristian Naarn if he is reading this. Or...good on you, buddy!)

Also, Alfie Allen filmed a full frontal shot when he was with the ship captain's daughter, or Ros...or maybe both? At any rate, no more of those shots can be included. (Insert poorly made Ramsay joke here.)

I believe I read that that was a fake dick (Hodor's, I mean). In an interview with the actor. Been awhile, though.

ETA: Whoops, got beat to it.

I am very hopeful if Tyrion is going to go straight -- or fairly straight -- to Dany. So much of the last couple books felt like Tyrion treading water (literally at some times, since he did fall overboard). Since I saw nothing about a female dwarf being cast, I take it there's no Penny. Kind of sad about that, but not if it means we get Tyrion to Meereen sooner.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Andromeda

[Mya Stone]

I am very hopeful if Tyrion is going to go straight -- or fairly straight -- to Dany. So much of the last couple books felt like Tyrion treading water (literally at some times, since he did fall overboard). Since I saw nothing about a female dwarf being cast, I take it there's no Penny. Kind of sad about that, but not if it means we get Tyrion to Meereen sooner.

 

I, for one, am really hoping that (despite some fantastic world-building) Tyrion's entire ADWD arc is condensed. Someone has to get to Dany; since Moqorro, and Marwyn, and Victarion all fail to exist in the show world, I am realllllllly hoping Tyrion gets there sooner rather than later. 

[fantique]

When it comes to Margery not being completely innocent - I don't mind her trying to figure out a way to survive Cersei (she'd have to be an idiot not to!) but I do hope they make her mostly innocent and sympathetic if they do the plot where both women are put on religious trial because it was delicious to be able to start to see all of Cersei's evil start coming back on her in that plotline.  If they have Margery do any real serious plotting - it might make Cersei a little sympathetic and I just don't want that because even though this actress dials back her evil a notch or two - she is still an awful person and the last Lannister I really want to see suffer lol.

Honestly, after Cersei's crazy and clear attempts at shooting Marg down, any retaliation seems fair game. The only way I would see Marg as the aggressor is if she is the one to jump start the trials.

 

Except Loras isn't always a moron. He's just a moron when the writers find it convenient for him to be a moron.

Perhaps it's meant to be some kind of he's awkward around women who aren't his sister BS because, you know, gay, so he can't be expected to hold a minimally intelligent conversation with a woman.

Isn't a gay stereotype that they understand women and can communicate better? 

 

As much as I would love for the show to divert for the books by having Tyrion actually get to meet/interact with Dany, I'm not getting my hopes up.

Old news but idk if you hate spoilers or not: 

Some of the very first photos leaked back in November were of Dany and Tyrion sitting together at the fighting pits so, that's pretty much confirmed.

 

I still don't know if it's very equal. We had a pointless full frontal shot of a woman, while they did everything but cut away to a shot of Varys doing the Electric Slide to avoid a penis being visible.

 

The nudity on this show often feels oddly self-conscious to me, never more so than last night.

I didn't mind the nudity this episode, but it did feel a bit self conscious when they went to so much trouble to cover up male genitalia but not female. I thought the scene in the brothel worked fine. Not it was "necessary" as such but the show does like to go nude and it reminded us that the unsullied were eunuchs, and I liked the 10 second bit where the prostitute takes off her clothes by force of habit and is then briefly surprised. That whole scene was actually quite effective for me, including the sudden knife.  

Here is my thing about nudity: I am completely indifferent one way or the other as long as there aren't boobs and dicks randomly swinging in the background.

As for the penis avoiding shot, maybe that's just me but, do you ladies really want to see penises the way guys want to see tits? Because I don't particularly want to or find it attractive to look at. I would imagine that I respond to abs the way dudes respond to boobs. Also, in terms of being seductive, it's not actually the visual only, the sound editing, the lighting can make it look sexy, it's not the more you show the sexier it is. It's how you show it. On that point Olyvar/Loras was not super sexy but then again I don't get the point of Olyvar's existence so any scene he's in irritates me slightly... Then again, this was a Breaking Bad director for this episode and that show had very unglamorous, almost clinical sex scenes and there were quite a few Walter White butt shots so maybe that's his thing.

[Amarsir]

My problem with the presentation of the male nudity in this episode is that it was framed like a pregnant actress whose character isn't pregnant in the show. After having a brief full frontal nudity of a woman at the start of the episode, when it came to the men we had legs being lifted, tables at just the right height to hide the penis. In fact, the table hide actually made me laugh out loud with how much effort was put into preventing full male nudity.

There's gratuitous nudity, like the woman removing her skirt just to put it back. There's gratuitous covering up, like Daenerys clutching a sheet over her chest while in bed with her lover. But the Loras / Olyvar scene managed to do both at once.

 

To be fair, it's a hard request to fill. I think if you survey women about how much nudity they want to see, you'll get a much broader range of answers than if you asked men the same question. (Not that all men would answer alike.)  But they could have been a lot less clumsy, in both directions. This felt like they never knew what shot they wanted until the day of the shoot.

[Luciaphile]

I'm trying to think how to explain why I hate the way they do nudity on this show and this is the best explanation I can give. There's a scene in Blackwater with Bronn and a bunch of Lannister soldiers and there are some random extras (presumably porn actresses). And in the middle of the scene, there's this whole bit with Bronn taking off the woman's dress and aside from that stupid string in front of her genitalia, she's buck naked. 

 

Now they're not in a brothel. They're in a tavern and there's already a lot going on in the scene. And it just felt like "oooh quick. Gotta get in some full frontal."

 

All very male gaze and very gratuitous.

 

In this episode, here we have this Unsullied guy going to a prostitute for some cuddling. He's been there before and there was really no need for the prostitute to strip down. In fact, I think you could argue it might have been a stronger scene had she remained clothed. But again, "Quick! Have this woman take her dress off!"

 

That's my problem. 

[DigitalCount]

FINALLY!

 

First things first, re: nudity, I don't know that it's really constructive to compare/contrast. I mean, even in the "full frontal" scene with the female prostitute you could see...a pair of thighs joining together, to be blunt. In the case of a male full-frontal scene, you'd see significantly more. I don't think it's really the same, and I'd bet that the contracts are probably worded differently due to differences in physicality. Finn went in on that open-mouthed kiss though, wow. But yes, Loras has diverged more and more from BookLoras since S1, but I can't see myself getting bent out of shape about it.

 

So the way that Maggy's scene was shot, I can at least console myself in assuming that the scene didn't end there. Because if the valonqar prophecy isn't mentioned, I see one of two possibilities:

1) it really is Jaime, and ugh

2) it's Tommen, and the way the phrases are worded make it waaaay too obvious (since there are no pauses for descriptions, or inner monologues, just talking)

 

I'm hoping for option 2.

 

I've seen upthread that people didn't like Margaery actually plotting against Cersei. Maybe this is show bleeding into books (as I read/watched both back and forth) but to me this seemed like the Loras/Renly thing, where they never said it in the books but implied it, or Theon's castration (same). I always thought Margaery was trying something, although not as openly because we never saw her behind closed doors. In any case, she's been this character since her introduction in S2 at least; it wouldn't be believable if she was okay with just being friends and shaking hands at this point.

 

Jon/Stan/Mel/Selyse - on point for me. I could see Tormund getting the Winterfell story if they do it, just because he's been the go-to Wildling Guy and he's probably not as expensive as Hinds. I don't remember who mentioned the "seeing who looked vs. seeing who didn't" thing but it was pretty interesting to see that.

 

On Varys backing Dany despite the assassin--interesting that the attempt failed, and it's exactly what galvanized Drogo to start beating down Westeros' door, right? I could believe that such an obviously poor assassination attempt was never meant to succeed, just to get them angry.

[Pete Martell]

Here is my thing about nudity: I am completely indifferent one way or the other as long as there aren't boobs and dicks randomly swinging in the background.

As for the penis avoiding shot, maybe that's just me but, do you ladies really want to see penises the way guys want to see tits? Because I don't particularly want to or find it attractive to look at. I would imagine that I respond to abs the way dudes respond to boobs. Also, in terms of being seductive, it's not actually the visual only, the sound editing, the lighting can make it look sexy, it's not the more you show the sexier it is. It's how you show it. On that point Olyvar/Loras was not super sexy but then again I don't get the point of Olyvar's existence so any scene he's in irritates me slightly... Then again, this was a Breaking Bad director for this episode and that show had very unglamorous, almost clinical sex scenes and there were quite a few Walter White butt shots so maybe that's his thing.

 

I'm not a woman, so I can't speak for them, but from my male POV, I will say that I think a tastefully done frontal scene does absolutely nothing to get in the way of a shot. 

 

One of the best nude scenes in a movie (in my opinion) is in Maurice, when Rupert Graves and James Wilby are post-coitus in what is supposed to be their last encounter. Rupert Graves has a playful tussle with Wilby, then gets up to start getting dressed, having a brief pause while Wilby hugs his waist. Rupert Graves has a beautiful penis (if there was a list I'm sure he'd be near the top), but it doesn't take away from the scene. It's just matter-of-fact. There's a gorgeous shot of Graves right after he stands up from the bed, exhausted, disoriented, moving his hair out of his eyes, and you see all of him, and it just makes him seem even more lost and vulnerable.

 

With Loras and Olyver, instead of a natural element, there's a bizarre conversation about how Loras has a huge birthmark in the shape of the brand new location they have to plug where they can (it makes me wonder if poor Shae had a birthmark of Meereen on her ass), followed by bumper car camera angles to avoid any dangling bits. It just further turns gay men on this show into some type of freak show.

 

It's not a big deal, or something I want to go have a protest over, but it's just something I thought seemed clumsy and annoying, especially since they've had Olyvar full frontal in the past. Maybe this is some new more stringent policy. I don't know. 

[Andromeda]

Old news but idk if you hate spoilers or not: Spoiler

Best news I heard all day.

The thing I would love to see changed is the false Arya stuff. I don't mind it as plot, but the thought of seeing that poor girl tortured and degraded the way Ramsey does in the book, in full living 1080p, just makes me shudder.

[snakenax]

 

I don't think it's really the same, and I'd bet that the contracts are probably worded differently due to differences in physicality.

From what people I know in the industry say, SAG's extremely legalistic and specific nudity contracts vs most of the rest of the world either not doing nudity contracts or doing a more open 'I agree to appear nekkid on screen' is the reason US productions tend to shoot nudity very differently then much of the rest of the world. To use a example for Daario's own actor, Michail Huisman, was in a (hilarious) Dutch romantic comedy called Phileine Says Sorry where he shows his wang and quite a bit of taint, most likely because of the difference between having to sign a contract that says 'The public gets to see my butt hole' and one that says 'I agree to appear naked'.

 

Though there is of course the notable difference that 90% of the full frontal female nudity on the show is done by extras, as Spartacus shows if you want to it's easy enough to get male extras to go full frontal as well, while the male nudity is generally provided by named cast members. Both the male and female name cast generally doesn't do more than shirtless or butts, which is pretty typical of premium cable TV(outside of Oz I can probably list on one hand the number of name actors who have done full frontal in a premium cable show, and even in the really brazen cases like Manu Bennet in Spartacus he stopped doing it after the first season).

Edited April 14, 2015 by snakenax

[tennisgurl]

 

I always thought Margaery was trying something, although not as openly because we never saw her behind closed doors.

I always assumed Margaery was either planning, or at least preparing to plan if necessary. Even in the books, where she is pretty hard to get a read on, I always thought she was a very intelligent, observant person, or at least, wasn't just some innocent pawn. I don't know if shes really even plotting Cersei`s downfall, so much as cementing her power. Which, I guess would mean Cersei`s downfall....

 

But yeah, I always felt like TVMargaery is just what BookMargaery is like behind closed doors, with maybe a little less of a seductress thing. 

 

On the subject of cutting stuff like Stoneheart, or the journey to find Dany that Tyrons takes, I`m ok with skimming some of it, but I worry about what will happen in the future. I know that GRRM has spoken with the showrunners about what can and cannot be cut out, but it makes you wonder what plots they'll still have if/when this all gets warped up.Plus, the stuff they choose to keep instead can be rather...odd. Like, we didn't have time for the flashbacks to Ned and Lyanna, but we had time for Pod the Sex God? Huh?

 

Annnnnnnd we`re back to boobs. We somehow always end up back to boobs, don't we?  

[snakenax]

 

But yeah, I always felt like TVMargaery is just what BookMargaery is like behind closed doors, with maybe a little less of a seductress thing.

I couldn't really see that. ShowMarg like a lot of characters changed drastically due to aging up, in her case it looks like she's maybe a decade older than the book version. BookMarg is a very young teenage girl who in all her scenes is doing young teenage girl things, which in this setting mostly means being shuttled around as a alliance maker for her family. ShowMarg is a young woman and with that comes the change that she is much more the master of her own destiny, actively pursuing that which she desires.

[Haleth]

As for the penis avoiding shot, maybe that's just me but, do you ladies really want to see penises the way guys want to see tits?

 

No, but the pains the director went to to prevent a glimpse of Daario's junk was hilarious.  Yeah, similar to hiding a pregnancy as another poster said.

 

So no more Mance and no baby Mance Jr, so no baby switch and no Gilly leaving with Sam?  No poignant death for Maester Aemon?  No chance meeting with Arya in Braavos?  Will Sam even need to sail to the Citidel?  Reading the books I assume he needs to learn important information (how to light those damned candles for one thing) for fighting the White Walkers, but may that all prove to be irrelevant?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Haleth

[mac123x]

I always assumed Margaery was either planning, or at least preparing to plan if necessary. Even in the books, where she is pretty hard to get a read on, I always thought she was a very intelligent, observant person, or at least, wasn't just some innocent pawn. I don't know if shes really even plotting Cersei`s downfall, so much as cementing her power. Which, I guess would mean Cersei`s downfall....

 

But yeah, I always felt like TVMargaery is just what BookMargaery is like behind closed doors, with maybe a little less of a seductress thing. 

 

 

 

There is a theory (because there are a LOT of theories out there) that Lady Merryweather is a double agent.  She's wormed her way into Cercei's confidence and is allegedly informing on Marge, but could just as easily be working to undermine Cercei.  Some of Cercei's bad decisions were based on her suggestions.  I'm not sure I buy it, since if Lady M was working for Marge, she should have been forewarned about the plot to frame her for adultery.

[Constantinople]

No, but the pains the director went to to prevent a glimpse of Daario's junk was hilarious.  Yeah, similar to hiding a pregnancy as another poster said.

 

So no more Mance and no baby Mance Jr, so no baby switch and no Gilly leaving with Sam?  No poignant death for Maester Aemon?  No chance meeting with Arya in Braavos?  Will Sam even need to sail to the Citidel?  Reading the books I assume he needs to learn important information (how to light those damned candles for one thing) for fighting the White Walkers, but may that all prove to be irrelevant?

 

Maester Aemon still has kingsblood, so it might still be prudent to send him away.

[LadyArcadia]

By the way the internet is slamming Daario's butt and making fun of his "pancake ass" I'd say we're even less likely to see more male nudity in the future.  

 

Thanks a lot, Internet.

[nksarmi]

fantique - I didn't know that spoiler and you just made my day!  I can't wait for that!!! I loved the first three books, but books four and five were almost like torture. In books that I was hoping would start to bring characters back together (and we got a little of that at the Wall but not much), he seems to introduce arbitrary characters for the people I really care about to interact with and keep the characters I want to see meet up separated.  Am I the only one who read the books by reading all the chapters for one character and then all the chapters for another character and only skimming the ones in between to make sure I didn't miss anything important?

 

I know this makes me a bad book fan (and I'm ok with that) but I am thrilled the show runners seem to be dropping plots, accelerating stories, and keeping the whole thing moving.  The best thing about this show is that something cool happens in almost every episode, but its usually also something that matters.  If the show runners followed the books - I think they might have started losing viewers.

[nksarmi]

I always assumed Margaery was either planning, or at least preparing to plan if necessary. Even in the books, where she is pretty hard to get a read on, I always thought she was a very intelligent, observant person, or at least, wasn't just some innocent pawn. I don't know if shes really even plotting Cersei`s downfall, so much as cementing her power. Which, I guess would mean Cersei`s downfall....

 

But yeah, I always felt like TVMargaery is just what BookMargaery is like behind closed doors, with maybe a little less of a seductress thing. 

 

On the subject of cutting stuff like Stoneheart, or the journey to find Dany that Tyrons takes, I`m ok with skimming some of it, but I worry about what will happen in the future. I know that GRRM has spoken with the showrunners about what can and cannot be cut out, but it makes you wonder what plots they'll still have if/when this all gets warped up.Plus, the stuff they choose to keep instead can be rather...odd. Like, we didn't have time for the flashbacks to Ned and Lyanna, but we had time for Pod the Sex God? Huh?

 

Annnnnnnd we`re back to boobs. We somehow always end up back to boobs, don't we?  

I think certain flashbacks would show too much.  Just because everyone who has read the books now thinks Lyanna loved Raegor and had his child and that child is Jon Snow doesn't mean they don't still want that "got ya" moment on screen.  I also suspect that is why the cut off the prophesy for Cersei - I think they want a real surprise about who is going to be her doom.  I wonder if they run though all of the queens on religious trial stuff this season if one of them will be dead by season's end or if they will save that for season six?  I don't mind if Marg is trying to cook up a reason to send Cersei away - or if she is actually having sex with someone - I just want Cersei to not have even an inch of room to play the victim here.  That's why I want Marg mostly innocent and that we are clearly on her side of this against Cersei.  I want Marg to end up being someone that its clear she would have been a good ally if Cersei wasn't so batshit crazy and perhaps someone who can survive this insanity and support Dany as the representative of House Tyrell.  On the show, she seems to have genuine compassion for the poor and her grandmother's wit so if her only flaw is ambition, I say let her support Danny and become a member of the small council - it might not be queen, but it's not half bad either.

No, but the pains the director went to to prevent a glimpse of Daario's junk was hilarious.  Yeah, similar to hiding a pregnancy as another poster said.

 

So no more Mance and no baby Mance Jr, so no baby switch and no Gilly leaving with Sam?  No poignant death for Maester Aemon?  No chance meeting with Arya in Braavos?  Will Sam even need to sail to the Citidel?  Reading the books I assume he needs to learn important information (how to light those damned candles for one thing) for fighting the White Walkers, but may that all prove to be irrelevant?

Sam could still set sail with Maester Aemon and Gilly could just go with him with her own baby.  The baby switch was a very sad, heartless moment in the books anyway.  I'm not sure I'm sorry they are cutting that.  Speaking of....can someone remind if Robert's oldest bastards is alive?  If so, maybe Stannis took him to the wall and that blood is all Mel will need.

Edited April 14, 2015 by nksarmi

[elzin]

I found the article I referenced a few pages ago about the nudity being geared mostly towards the straight male gaze.

 

 

Women deserve to see male bodies sexually—not askance, or because they happen to be naked or look dashing while fighting—but directly, in scenes that regard the male body as the aesthetic object it is. I think most narrative would benefit from less nudity, not more, but as long as we’re in the terrain “Game of Thrones” has made possible, this is a loud plea for the female gaze. Dear Alex Graves and Neil Marshall: next time you get the urge to show us a suppurating wound on someone’s thigh or an exploding eyeball, consider instead, letting the camera linger lovingly, with an explicitly erotic emphasis, on male pecs, travel down masculine legs, watch men emerge from bathtubs even though it has very little to do with the plot. Guys, we need it more than you do.

 

I was happy at least there was no rape this episode and the violence was low for GOT.

[Brn2bwild]

 

 

So the way that Maggy's scene was shot, I can at least console myself in assuming that the scene didn't end there. Because if the valonqar prophecy isn't mentioned, I see one of two possibilities:

1) it really is Jaime, and ugh

2) it's Tommen, and the way the phrases are worded make it waaaay too obvious (since there are no pauses for descriptions, or inner monologues, just talking)

It could be that the valonqar prophecy is such a significant moment, they wanted to isolate it in a different episode.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[DigitalCount]

It could be that the valonqar prophecy is such a significant moment, they wanted to isolate it in a different episode.

Actually, if you're right, then I'm even more convinced. In the books, the isolation is somewhat artificial too, because they hide the association with a gap in the sentence. But it's important to note that in the show and the book, the "valonqar prophecy" would be part of Maggy's answer to the third question, not a bonus freebie. So I'm hoping that if the rest of it is shown later, the audience isn't reminded of the context. That way, they can either make Cersei's mistake and assume Tyrion, or make the reader's mistake and think Jaime.

[Hanahope]

can someone remind if Robert's oldest bastards is alive?  If so, maybe Stannis took him to the wall and that blood is all Mel will need.

 

I believe that Gendry is still alive, last we saw Davos got him away from Mel.  I don't believe we ever found out what became of him. 

 

In the books, I believe he hooked up with BWB, and was last seen with them.

 

Also, to our knowledge, Mya Stone is still alive too in the books.  I don't think they created a character in the show.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Hanahope

[nksarmi]

Actually, if you're right, then I'm even more convinced. In the books, the isolation is somewhat artificial too, because they hide the association with a gap in the sentence. But it's important to note that in the show and the book, the "valonqar prophecy" would be part of Maggy's answer to the third question, not a bonus freebie. So I'm hoping that if the rest of it is shown later, the audience isn't reminded of the context. That way, they can either make Cersei's mistake and assume Tyrion, or make the reader's mistake and think Jaime.

Interesting - I have always thought the switch up would be Jamie - but Tommen is an interesting thought.  I didn't put a lot of thought into the entire prophesy because I like Cersei younger children and didn't want anything bad to happen to them (my preference would be they somehow go back to Casterly Rock with uncle/daddy Jamie and have happy small lives and avoid their mother and brother's fate).  But gold their shroud should just mean they die young, right?  Die before they have the chance to go grey?

 

If that is the case Tommen could still live long enough to order his mother's death.  The chocking part could be figurative rather than literal.  I could see this happening if Cersei's trial goes poorly.  That would make me think the younger, more beautiful one is Margery, but I suppose if she dies first - Sansa could return and marry Tommen in Little Finger's attempt to be a friend to people in power and give Sansa back the north.  I still think Margery would have more to do with "taking" all Cersei holds dear because she first married Geoffrey and then Tommen and if she take's his respect and his "ear" she will have seized Cersei's power from her.  Plus Margery will be the queen the people love.  So yea, unless she dies, I think it's Marg.

[Hanahope]

But gold their shroud should just mean they die young, right?  Die before they have the chance to go grey?

 

I always assumed that meant that each one will be a king/queen when they die.  I thought in the books it was clear that the children die before Cersei, but the prophecy in the show didn't mention that, other than perhaps the vague YMBQ taking 'everything Cersei holds dear."

[Constantinople]

I believe that Gendry is still alive, last we saw Davos got him away from Mel.

 

His row boat collided with Yara Greyjoy's war ship that was returning from the Dreadfort debacle.

 

Everyone drowned.

[BlackberryJam]

His row boat collided with Yara Greyjoy's war ship that was returning from the Dreadfort debacle.

 

Everyone drowned.

Oh, that's good for the corrupt wish thread.

[polyhymnia]

I didn't see anyone else mention this (in this thread) but I was bothered that Littlefinger left Robin Arryn with the Vale people and just skeddadled.  I can't see that being a good idea for the character that we're supposed to think is one of the cleverest in the series, especially if there is no Harry the Heir.

 

I liked the wall scenes, too.  Loved that Shireen was completely appalled and Selyse is still totally nuts and that they captured both of those things with just a couple of glances at the characters during the Mance burning scene.  I also liked Jon Snow's resigned statement about vengeance as in there were just not enough hours in the day for him to properly avenge his family.

[Mya Stone]

I believe that Gendry is still alive, last we saw Davos got him away from Mel.  I don't believe we ever found out what became of him. 

 

In the books, I believe he hooked up with BWB, and was last seen with them.

 

Also, to our knowledge, Mya Stone is still alive too in the books.  I don't think they created a character in the show.

 

Heck yes I'm still alive. :p

[FemmyV]

Jon/Stan/Mel/Selyse - on point for me. I could see Tormund getting the Winterfell story if they do it, just because he's been the go-to Wildling Guy and he's probably not as expensive as Hinds. I don't remember who mentioned the "seeing who looked vs. seeing who didn't" thing but it was pretty interesting to see that.

 

  I guess it makes for a more interesting arc, too, in how Tormund has been so sworn against Westerosi in general and Jon, in specific.

 

I don't like the vibe we're getting with Mel & Jon, although I have to admit to some curiosity of what Jon's shadow-baby would do.

 

Overall, I liked this show a lot, glad we'll get to Arya next time.

 

[nksarmi]

I always assumed that meant that each one will be a king/queen when they die.  I thought in the books it was clear that the children die before Cersei, but the prophecy in the show didn't mention that, other than perhaps the vague YMBQ taking 'everything Cersei holds dear."

See I took "gold will be their crown" to mean they would have the Lannister golden hair - as is, she wasn't just saying the queen would have three children while the king had loads of bastards, but that Cersei's children would be Jamie's not Robert's.  So to me "gold" being their shroud could mean they die young, but not necessarily before Cersei. 

[Andromeda]

fantique - I didn't know that spoiler and you just made my day!  I can't wait for that!!! I loved the first three books, but books four and five were almost like torture. In books that I was hoping would start to bring characters back together (and we got a little of that at the Wall but not much), he seems to introduce arbitrary characters for the people I really care about to interact with and keep the characters I want to see meet up separated.  Am I the only one who read the books by reading all the chapters for one character and then all the chapters for another character and only skimming the ones in between to make sure I didn't miss anything important?

 

I know this makes me a bad book fan (and I'm ok with that) but I am thrilled the show runners seem to be dropping plots, accelerating stories, and keeping the whole thing moving.  The best thing about this show is that something cool happens in almost every episode, but its usually also something that matters.  If the show runners followed the books - I think they might have started losing viewers.

I think the showrunners are doing a great job giving viewers what they want. George is an exec producer, but I'm happy to see he's flexible -- probably because it’s such a successful TV show, and making his book sales skyrocket. Seems he’s willing to listen to Benioff and Weiss when it comes to the need for dramatic pacing. In other words, not spend 1,000 pages of Tyrion stuff on him dinking (Dinklaging) around and not getting anywhere.

 

Like you, I was frustrated with books 4 & 5 (though I read them in order, every page... kinda wish I'd skimmed.) Why so many new characters, when we're already invested in the journeys of the originals? I think that now, since the show now has such a strong fanbase, they’re consolidating a lot of the character roles, so instead of introducing 10+ new characters each season, they’re giving actions to already existing (and loved) characters. For instance

, I saw an on-set photo that showed Jamie in Dorne, instead of the brand-new character that George put in the books. I don’t recall Jamie doing much of anything in the last two books, but he’s popular and we’ve followed his journey, so it makes sense to give him stuff to do.

 

In any case, I agree with you! I am in no way a book purist, though -- I know others disagree.

 

I'm a little blown away how far we are already into the content of the last two books. I can see Jon becoming Lord Commander in an episode or two, and then there's still eight more episodes... so his story could easily catch up with the books by the end of the season. Same for pretty much all of them.

 

To get this back on the topic of this episode, I love that little Shireen is at the Wall with her (mean and crappy) mother and (cold yet loving) father. I'm glad she's in the show. So many of the original "kids" are now not to much, and she's adorable. But she really didn't need to see a man burned alive!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Andromeda

[Hanahope]

See I took "gold will be their crown" to mean they would have the Lannister golden hair - as is, she wasn't just saying the queen would have three children while the king had loads of bastards, but that Cersei's children would be Jamie's not Robert's.

 

Oh yeah, I took that exactly the same way and thought it was very clear since we know Jamie is their father, they all have gold hair and all of Robert's children have black hair.  "Gold is their crown", i.e., the crown/hair of their head.  But the "gold is their shrouds" I guess could be either that they die young, before their hair turns grey (although I've only seen about 50% of blondes actually go grey, so that's why to me it wasn't clear that it meant an early death), or that they die as the ruler.

[Pete Martell]

By the way the internet is slamming Daario's butt and making fun of his "pancake ass" I'd say we're even less likely to see more male nudity in the future.  

 

Thanks a lot, Internet.

 

Some of us were saying the same thing the last time he dropped his trousers and they still did it again anyway, so I'm sure if he makes it to season 6 we'll be getting more flat-assed follies for our viewing pleasure.

[WearyTraveler]

Re: male nudity on the show, I thought they handled it extremely well in Jon and Ygritte's sex scene in the cave: it was natural.  I assume KH refused to do full frontal, but because it was shot from the back, neither the camera nor the actor needed to do weird moves to hide the penis and I, as a viewer, could appreciate a perfectly fine male body within context.

 

When it comes to female nudity, I think some of it is unnecessary, but, meh! I don't really care that much.

[BlackberryJam]

In the nude scene with Jon and Ygritte, they actually had to use a body double for Kit Harington as he had broken his ankle. So it wasn't even him.

[maystone]

The baby switch was a very sad, heartless moment in the books anyway.  I'm not sure I'm sorry they are cutting that.  Speaking of....can someone remind if Robert's oldest bastards is alive?  If so, maybe Stannis took him to the wall and that blood is all Mel will need.

 

Maybe I'm way off base, but I'm assuming that Mel has every intention of sacrificing Shireen if another option doesn't present itself. (I don't think she knows about Maester Aemon's parentage.) Selyse certainly wouldn't have any objections, and Stannis has painted himself into a corner on the whole issue of spilling royal blood to fulfil his destiny. If Davos was willing to cross Stannis to save Gendry, just imagine what he'd do to save Shireen.

[paramitch]

I'm divided on this episode -- I was so happy that they're apparently going to speed forward Tyrion right through his useless arc in ADWD (although I did feel a bit sad that evidently there would be no Penny character -- but then again, she makes Tyrion look bad, so of course she wouldn't make the cut).

 

But I'm so bummed that they appear to have actually killed Mance. I'm just so confused because I don't even know, at this point, what arcs or motivations will even exist for most of these characters as their storylines have been so massively changed. I've been a big fan of some of the show's changes from the books, and have supported many of them.

 

At this point, right now, half the cast has lost their legitimate plotlines. So there will be no secret Mance mission, no LS, no Jaime, Brienne and Pod convergence (and I'm going to be really unhappy if yet again they gut the Jaime character onscreen from a character-enhancing sequence from the books)... And Varys, Tyrion and Sansa are completely off book... it's kind of nuts.

 

I was also unhappy at the vast simplification of Cersei's prophecy. I mean, I didn't like it in the books either (I thought it was a clumsy way to give her new motivation to hate Tyrion), but for me it's just one more situation where we're losing the character's core motivation on the show, as opposed to how it was presented in the books.

 

I'm trying to think how to explain why I hate the way they do nudity on this show and this is the best explanation I can give. There's a scene in Blackwater with Bronn and a bunch of Lannister soldiers and there are some random extras (presumably porn actresses). And in the middle of the scene, there's this whole bit with Bronn taking off the woman's dress and aside from that stupid string in front of her genitalia, she's buck naked. 

 

Now they're not in a brothel. They're in a tavern and there's already a lot going on in the scene. And it just felt like "oooh quick. Gotta get in some full frontal."

 

All very male gaze and very gratuitous.

 

In this episode, here we have this Unsullied guy going to a prostitute for some cuddling. He's been there before and there was really no need for the prostitute to strip down. In fact, I think you could argue it might have been a stronger scene had she remained clothed. But again, "Quick! Have this woman take her dress off!"

 

That's my problem. 

 

Thanks for putting this so eloquently -- I agree with this exactly.

 

I'm totally fine with onscreen nudity for either sex, as long as it comes across as believable for the situation. But yeah, most of the time for me on this show, there's this sort of ugly undertone to most of the female nudity, and it feels very artificial and inorganic. It's also usually badly blocked and staged -- I hated the scene here where the woman went full-frontal, not because I'm a prude, but because it was laughably transparent -- I totally didn't buy that she would have done that. He's a regular customer with very specific tastes, in full uniform, so it wasn't like he had to remind her he was Unsullied.

 

But for me with this show, I find many of the nude scenes for the actresses rather ugly because they usually involve some dead-eyed prostitute character in a subservient position to a fully clothed man who then strips down while the camera pauses and all action pauses so that the perv producer and whichever male viewers they're targeting in the audience can gawk, and then the scene can go on. It doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel naturalistic. It's honestly kind of intrusive for me and I find myself rolling my eyes constantly over it. A lot has been written about this show's focus on the male gaze, and the Loras scene here -- along with the brothel scene -- I thought spotlighted that to an unfortunate degree (God forbid we get a glimpse of a penis!). 

 

Every once in awhile, I've thought the use of nudity was effective -- Ygritte, Melisandre, and Dany have all had scenes in which they were naked and yet held all the power in their scenes, and I appreciated that flip on the usual formula. I also give full props to Alfie Allen for playing a scene fully frontal and wish more actors were more comfortable with it.

 

Other shows handle nudity so much more beautifully and organically -- "Outlander," for instance, or if any of you watched "Penny Dreadful," one of my very favorite things about that show was that in the very first episode, there is a male full frontal scene. It isn't shied away from and it isn't focused upon either. It's simply there and worked beautifully simply because it was the way things would have been in that moment, and for me it was eerily one of the most gorgeous shots of the entire show, like a Rembrandt.

 

I'm not saying I need a chorus line of penii, I just think that with the near-laughable levels of unnecessary and inorganic female nudity on this show, if a guy's junk shows up in a scene, what's the big deal? Why block around it to "Austen Powers" levels of artificiality? That's what bugs me.

[WearyTraveler]

In the nude scene with Jon and Ygritte, they actually had to use a body double for Kit Harington as he had broken his ankle. So it wasn't even him.

 

No matter, it was still a well shot scene where the nudity felt organic. That was my point.

[snakenax]

 

But for me with this show, I find many of the nude scenes for the actresses rather ugly because they usually involve some dead-eyed prostitute character in a subservient position to a fully clothed man who then strips down while the camera pauses and all action pauses so that the perv producer and whichever male viewers they're targeting in the audience can gawk, and then the scene can go on. It doesn't feel real.

Unfortunately I kind of gather at this point that 'powerless female extra in a very rapey situation stripping naked' is actually considered the more 'arty' form of nudity for premium cable style TV, given how many articles I saw praising Marco Polo for it's use of nudity and that is pretty much 100% of what it has.

 

No matter, it was still a well shot scene where the nudity felt organic. That was my point.

Did Jon actually have any nudity in that scene? From what I remember it was 100% naked Ygritte and then like a half second blink and you'll miss it out of focus side view of Jon jumping into the pool.

[ChromaKelly]

I really felt like the Dorne birthmark scene was like the writers had a bet on who could do the most outlandish sexposition. It was like a parody of GoT. Let's work in introducing Dorne to the viewers while we get our sex quota for the episode in! It was just awful. Even if they did want to go the sexposition route, Loras could have been having pillow talk with a man from Dorne. I didn't need to see NewRos Olyvar again. I don't know why the show is making Loras into a manslut either. It's like OMG remember Loras is gay, everyone! Would rather see him talking to Marge about how much he misses Renly if we needed a Gay Reminder. That would be in book-character.
And yeah, the Meereen prostitute didn't need to get undressed, and the prostitutes he passed by didn't have to have their tits hanging out for the viewer to realize their profession.

[Dewey Decimate]

Did Conleith Hill buff up a little over the inter-season break? Of all characters in Westeros, he's (possibly) the last one I'd check out and think "hey, he's lookin' good!", but damn if Varys - VARYS?!? - didn't appear a little more lean and tanned. I guess a long trip across the Narrow Sea does a body good.

 

And damn if his line about tossing Ty's shit overboard didn't tickle me pink. Hand to the gods, the first thing I thought when Tyrion rolled out of the crate was "wouldn't he be besmirched with his own offal?" when he almost immediately pointed out how he disposed of it. Those perfect moments give me hope that the t.v. version of The Game may be satisfying.

[paramitch]

Loras's continued fling with Olyvar honestly makes me think it's just production expedience, as it was with Roz. As with Roz, I'd suspect that the producers like the Olyvar actor, he probably is easy to work with and he's at ease in these scenes, so they probably just figure he's fine for some Loras pillow talk without thinking through the ramifications and implications of how such scenes are kind of inexplicable and yeah, they do make Loras look like a gullible putz.

 

Unfortunately, I actually liked Roz and felt like she did have a pretty interesting role in the show (even if it was as a kind of avatar for several combined smaller roles), and I thought the actress did a lot with what she was given -- to the point that I was genuinely surprised to be upset at her death. But I get no sense of similar stage presence or complexity from Olyvar. He's just kind of smirky and there.

 

I'm in the same boat.  I love Sansa, but show!LF just about makes me facepalm every time he appears.

 

I admit it loud and proud: I love TV Littlefinger (actually, I find him far more entertaining than in the books), and I honestly really like both Aidan Gillen and his choices with the character. His accent has never bothered me, and the twist of Irish that he gives LF (seemingly deliberately, as he's done good jobs on accents elsewhere, on "The Wire," for instance) doesn't bother me and just comes across as a regional thing. I thought his monologue at the close of "The Climb" was one of the show's best moments.

 

And as far as the character goes, I never really believed that Book LF actually loved Cat, but I do believe that the TV version did, and I like the complexity this gives his character, because the implication for me is that it's literally the one redeeming thing about him, the one pure thing he holds onto despite how utterly and irretrievably corrupt he has become. I'll never forget LF actually making his big play for Cat on the show across the chest of her dead husband's bones that he had just delivered to her. The guy is incredibly fascinating to me. He's nuts, but it's an interesting brand of it.

 

I know it's a lonely table, but yeah, I'm sitting at it. And it's fun to see that he hasn't brought Sansa into the gutter as I feared/expected -- instead, she's unexpectedly formidable and is not only matching him on strategy, she's playing him and the game just like everyone else.

Edited April 16, 2015 by paramitch

[franopy]

I admit it loud and proud: I love TV Littlefinger (actually, I find him far more entertaining than in the books), and I honestly really like both Aidan Gillen and his choices with the character. His accent has never bothered me, and the twist of Irish that he gives LF (seemingly deliberately, as he's done good jobs on accents elsewhere, on "The Wire," for instance) doesn't bother me and just comes across as a regional thing. I thought his monologue at the close of "The Climb" was one of the show's best moments.

 

And as far as the character goes, I never really believed that Book LF actually loved Cat, but I do believe that the TV version did, and I like the complexity this gives his character, because the implication for me is that it's literally the one redeeming thing about him, the one pure thing he holds onto despite how utterly and irretrievably corrupt he has become. I'll never forget LF actually making his big play for Cat on the show across the chest of her dead husband's bones that he had just delivered to her. The guy is incredibly fascinating to me. He's nuts, but it's an interesting brand of it.

 

I'm right there with you, paramitch, I have adored Gillen's approach to TV Littlefinger since he first appeared. The only thing I am still trying to figure out is if the accent is something the character holds on to on purpose, maybe out of a sense of defiance and to show all the high and mighty of Westeros how lowly upstart is rising through their ranks. Alternatively, it could be something he simply hasn't been able to shake and that will always identify him as the upstart he is and distinguish him from the "true nobles". There was this famous French sociologist, Pierre Bourdieu, whose work, among other things, looked at accents as a form of embodied cultural capital. Bourdieu himself came from southern France but openly admitted that over time he ditched his accent and learned to speak the elite accent common among Parisian intellectuals. 

 

I also enjoyed the glimpse of an evolving Sansa we got in the first episode, I am curious to see where they go with this.

[snakenax]

 

Loras's continued fling with Olyvar honestly makes me think it's just production expedience, as it was with Roz.

I do imagine Olyvar is still around for the same reason Roz was: he's a actual actor but willing to do the extended, full frontal nude scenes of the extras(many of them porn actors) they hire for the brothel etc scenes. Though unlike Roz he isn't great for giving a humanized face to those brothel scenes since we know literally nothing about him other than that he looks really good naked.

 

Personally I don't mind his current presence, including the change to Loras which I feel is another example of differences of character age changing character circumstances, BookLoras is a teenager mooning over a older man who started sleeping with him when he was like 12, ShowLoras and ShowRenly aren't that far off in age and were in a much more equitable relationship. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by snakenax

[Holmbo]

I admit it loud and proud: I love TV Littlefinger (actually, I find him far more entertaining than in the books), and I honestly really like both Aidan Gillen and his choices with the character. His accent has never bothered me, and the twist of Irish that he gives LF (seemingly deliberately, as he's done good jobs on accents elsewhere, on "The Wire," for instance) doesn't bother me and just comes across as a regional thing. I thought his monologue at the close of "The Climb" was one of the show's best moments.

How boring it would be if everyone felt the same about every character.

I don't dislike LF per say but I think he's best in small doses. There are many other characters who I want to get much more screen time than him.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Holmbo

[that one guy]

My favorite little moment in this episode is Jon Snow wailing on Olly while pretending to train him, because inside he's totally pissed at the kid for killing Ygritte. I was like, "Alliser Thorne would be proud" because Thorne treated Snow the same way when he arrived, just for being the Bastard of WInterfell. And then - cut to Alliser Thorne, who does in fact look a bit proud. Jon's kind of in the club now and gets to haze the new kids like he was hazed. This is how "being a dick" becomes "a cherished tradition" over time...

I honestly really like both Aidan Gillen and his choices with the character. His accent has never bothered me, and the twist of Irish that he gives LF (seemingly deliberately, as he's done good jobs on accents elsewhere, on "The Wire," for instance) doesn't bother me and just comes across as a regional thing.

 

I always took his odd accent to mean he's not from King's landing. He's a minor lord from the middle of nowhere and should have a bit of an accent. Ned did as well, I'm kind of disappointed the Stark kids don't - we can't even blame that on Cat, because she and her uncle Blackfish are also kind of brogue-ish sometimes. But it's not reasonable for everyone in Westeros to have the same accent. Before the leveling effect of television, regional accents were far more pronounced in the US -and they continue to be in the UK, which is exactly why the GOT actors don't share a common accent. 

 

I was sad when it struck me that Mance is probably dead for real - until it occurred to me that they may give his storyline to Tormund Giantsbane instead, which would be awesome. They'd have to change it a bit - nobody's going to believe Giantsbane sang at a party at Winterfell and nobody noticed he was there. If you were at a party with that guy, you'd remember. Jon wouldn't have thought he was the king, he'd be like "Tor! I remember you! You're the guy who decided to arm wrestle the Greatjohn and ended up getting us all kicked out of the tavern!" etc.

[TudorQueen]

I thought it was a fine season opener. Every scene - every line - between Varys and Tyrion was golden, climaxing in, "Can I drink myself to death on the road to Meereen?". They make a wonderful pair and I honestly think I'd watch a spin off consisting of just Varys and Tyrion wandering the earth together, righting wrongs and making quips. It was also nice to be reminded of Illyrio Mopatis, even though we didn't see him. (His palace villa is still lovely).

 

Dany's scenes tend to bore me, as her s/l did at this point - or earlier - in the books. She's a self-proclaimed Queen who is trying to rule well and from a moral viewpoint, but... she isn't very good at it, and she tends to be imperious and stubborn at the worst possible times. I'm not sure how I feel about her and Daario - I miss Khal Drogo, but at the same time I recognize that she can't mourn him forever. And Daario does try to give her good advice. I did love it when he pointed out that the basis for her power - her status as "mother of dragons" won't work without the dragons. It also annoys me that she goes on and on about that, but has never learned how to train or control them.

 

Everything at the wall interested me - Stannis is a wonderfully drawn and acted character, and I actually feel sympathy for him at times. Melisandre, while terrifying, is a compelling character, though I missed her red ensemble. The most fascinating character, though, was Mance Rayder. When I first read the books, I envisioned Ian McShane in the role (I tend to see him in things, so this may not be a popular image for most GoT fans!). Ironically, Ciaran Hinds, doing some of the best acting I've seen on the series, reminded me of the very qualities I thought McShane would bring to the role - if that makes any sense! His conversation with Jon Snow was an amazing scene that actually raised Kit Harrington's game considerably, (loved the way Hinds murmured "That's a bad way to go" when told he'd be burned alive) and then his 'blessing' to Stannis, with its great dignity.  Until now, I've never gotten the fuss over either Harrington or the character, dismissing Jon Snow as "an emo who knows absolutely nothing!" but that scene, and the end, completely won me over. When it was revealed that he'd shot the arrow that gave Rayder a far more merciful death, I actually cheered and then said, "I take back everything I said about you, Jon Snow!"

 

Sansa, now dark-haired, finally does have the resemblance to her mother that Littlefinger keeps mentioning. I love the way Sophie Turner is internalizing everything that's happened to Sansa, and we see her growing and changing subtly in response to events, but keeping her own counsel (whose else can she trust?). And yes, I do love watching Littlefinger scheme (his motives may be crazy, but they come from a consistent set of emotions) and think Aiden Gillen is doing a fine job.

 

Now I can't wait for Alexander Siddig (who is generally awesome - see "Cairo Time" and "Kingdom of Heaven") as Doran Martell!