S01.E09: Pimento

[ToastnBacon]

Good to finally see some posters come along who aren't seeing it all Jimmy: Good / Chuck: Bad. Chuck's only "crime" was not telling Jimmy from the start that he didn't want him in HHM. But he probably didn't tell because he has his own issues, and also Jimmy's issues would have led Jimmy to react too irrationally to the truth. Instead he encouraged Jimmy to take the more realistic path and make it on his own. There is no evil there and no basis for wanting Chuck to die because of this.

 

And Chuck was reasonable and realistic in not wanting Jimmy in the firm. Yes Chuck additionally also had emotional issues going that came out in the exchange at the end when Jimmy absolutely pushed him into being so blunt. But still, in addition to that, Chuck had overwhelming good, rational reasons for not wanting him in the firm.

I like your take on this a lot because it points to the truth that Jimmy had no business working at HHM as a lawyer.

Just one of his Slippin Jimmy stunts could put the entire firm at risk.

Chuck knew this and is justified in keeping Jimmy out of the firm.

Granted, Chuck handled his personal relationship with Jimmy poorly. He should have been strait forward with Jimmy about not trusting him.

It would have hurt Jimmy, but not as much as how it turned out in this episode.

Chuck has flaws and so does Jimmy.

Jimmy's flaws make him a poor candidate for a job with a big law firm. He is just too much of a risk.

Chuck's flaws make him a shitty brother.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Chuck should have realized Jimmy's potential (but then there wouldn't be a show) and used Jimmy as his public face, he could stay home reading by candlelight, and Jimmy go out into the toxic electrified world and they'd be unstoppable.

 

I like that.  Jimmy can be down but not out, as we know.  He's going to forge his new identity, but what is Chuck going to do?  I don't think a complete recovery and return to HHM would be very believable.  I think his forward progress may be halted now that the truth is out.  But regardless, he is the big loser, he has lost his best (and it looks like only) supporter.  He made sure Jimmy couldn't be a 'real' lawyer, but now neither is he.  Poetic justice. 

[ghoulina]

Even the location, like Walt's first junkyard deal. What's wrong with an Orange Julius or a Taco Cabeza?

 

Exactly! No one ever gets shot at Taco Cabeza!

 

Instead he encouraged Jimmy to take the more realistic path and make it on his own.

 

I don't think Chuck wanted Jimmy to make it as a lawyer, period. He'd much prefer if his little brother stayed in the mail room forever, and HE was the only lawyer in the family. I could begrudge Chuck being worried about his brothers stunts (although I come down on the side of thinking that if Jimmy was accountable to a large firm he wouldn't be pulling those stunts) if he hadn't blown up and admitted his true feelings - "You're not a real lawyer!" That's the crux of it right there. What as nasty, hurtful, and untrue thing to say. THAT'S how Chuck really feels. And that's why I no longer have any patience for him. 

[DrSpaceman]

Much of this debate goes back to the age old question of can someone change permanently from their true nature and what factors play into that potential change, which is a fascinating question that has been explored in many ways and many shows on TV in the last 15 years. 

 

I don't dispute Jimmy/Saul has reckless tendendies, the real question is with the right guidance, from CHuck or someone else. could he curtail those tendendies and could he have become a different person than Saul?  There is no way to answer that for sure.  What we do know if he seemed to desperately want to please Chuck and prove he could turn his life around, seemed to do so to an extent even going to far as to becoming a lawyer like his brother and was looking to him for further guidance and advice. 

 

Many of the best shows go back to this question though and answer it in different ways

 

The Sopranos, did Tony change over time with the help of his therapist, or was he just using the sessions, as she suggested in the last episode, to reinforce his own selfish, psychopathic behavior? 

 

On Breaking Bad, despite the name of the show, I always took the view Walter White was more Heisenberg at heart than he was Walter White.  A serious of probably reckless decisions, personal hubris and inability to cooperative with others likely caused his departure from gray matter and set him on the path we saw at the time of the start of the show.  His true nature I think was Heisenberg, he found a way to suppress it for years.  The cancer diagnosis was the impetus for him deciding to not be anymore the person he became.  It as part necessity and part choice

 

On weeds, I always felt similar actually with Nancy as Walter, she was just more vixen and less viloent.  If you follow the show and listen to her history, she seemed to always have a slightly devious nature to her, using her sexuality to manipulate men and get her way.  But you get married, your life changes, you settle in and no longer need to act that way.  Then your husband dies, your lifestyle, as you know it at least, is threatened, and she reverts back to the scheming, sexual coniving girl she was before her new life began.  She could suppress it for awhile, but not forever

 

Mad Men, Don Draper is a complete fabrication of a person, literally and figuratively, born out of someone not liking their prior life and deciding to change.  The last several upcoming episodes I think will explore the question of can he continue his whole life as Don Draper or is there still some part of him Dick in their that he can't suppress. 

 

Jimmy/Saul is again in this same vain.  Maybe in the end he would have become Saul whatever happened once he had a law degree, but still, it seems Chuck did not even want to give him a chance to see if he was capable of a different path than what he followed.  Chuck was the one that came and rescued him in CHicago, which Jimmy owes him a great debt for, but then later when he continues to need more guidance and assistance, and he has shown he may be capable of truly turning his life around and be more than the mail boy at his law firm, he seems to abandon him

[Ottis]

I don't dispute Jimmy/Saul has reckless tendendies, the real question is with the right guidance, from CHuck or someone else. could he curtail those tendendies and could he have become a different person than Saul?

 

 

Which could have included an arrangement that allowed Jimmy to realize his potental while protecting the wider HHM firm if Jimmy went off the rails. A good brother would have explored that option.

 

What bothered me about Chuck was the way he viewed Jimmy's education. He immediately dismissed it as mail order, both in the earlier ep where we saw Jimmy tell Chuck (and Chuck was underwhelmed), and this one. There is more there than Chuck being a lawyer who holds the profession in esteem and is wary of those who don't meet his lofty requirements. Chuck is also simply a snob, and perhaps an older brother who doesn't truly respect his younger brother in any circumstance (but will take help from him).

[Fisher King]

I like that.  Jimmy can be down but not out, as we know.  He's going to forge his new identity, but what is Chuck going to do?  I don't think a complete recovery and return to HHM would be very believable.  I think his forward progress may be halted now that the truth is out.  But regardless, he is the big loser, he has lost his best (and it looks like only) supporter.  He made sure Jimmy couldn't be a 'real' lawyer, but now neither is he.  Poetic justice. 

 

Yes, and it's possible that in later years Ol' Chuck may find himself wheeling around a darkened hallway of a certain nursing home  - maybe one where a mute resident resides. Ding!

[EDTV]

During the meeting I kept wondering, if the HHM had so much respect for Chuck that they would welcome him they way they did and all put their phones away, how could they possibly disrespect his brother like that.... well now we know!...lol

[Irlandesa]

I could begrudge Chuck being worried about his brothers stunts (although I come down on the side of thinking that if Jimmy was accountable to a large firm he wouldn't be pulling those stunts.

Not just accountable to a large firm but his brother specifically.  One of his biggest worries about his billboard scam is that Chuck would find out.  Not wanting to disappoint his brother was one of the characteristics of his rehabilitation. And in order to get tha law degree, he walked the straight path.

 

But the fact that Hamlin pretty much recognized it for what it was means he's also pretty familiar with Slippin' Jimmy and he doesn't have the personal experience Chuck has so maybe he wasn't as perfect in the mailroom.

 

The big question is whether or not Jimmy would have been content being an associate or if he'd eventually want to had another M to HHM.  And is that when some of his more scamming tendencies would come in? 

 

As for Hamlin and what he feels about Chuck, I do think it's part history and part financial.  But I do think he would've hired Jimmy.  He started looking visibly uncomfortable when Jimmy actually looked hurt that he was being turned away from being hired.  He had a hard time looking Jimmy in the eye.  And just before the McGills left, he shot Chuck a very pointed look.  It could have been interpreted as "get your brother in line" but I think it was more of a "fuck you for making me do this."

Edited April 1, 2015 by Irlandesa

[henripootel]

Just one of his Slippin Jimmy stunts could put the entire firm at risk.

 

I'm not of a mind that Jimmy did these for fun or because he can't tell the difference between this and 'normal' business practice.  He did them because he was desperate.  Chuck intentionally made him desperate - bit rich of him to draw from this 'Always knew Jimmy would always be 'Slippin' Jimmy''.

[ghoulina]

I'm not of a mind that Jimmy did these for fun or because he can't tell the difference between this and 'normal' business practice.  He did them because he was desperate.  Chuck intentionally made him desperate - bit rich of him to draw from this 'Always knew Jimmy would always be 'Slippin' Jimmy''.

 

Agree entirely. Jimmy did these things because he felt he had no other options. And we have seen him hesitate several times - taking the Kettleman's money, spilling the coffee on the notebook. So it's not like he just does these things for kicks. But he is a clever little shit, and when grasping at straws he will pull some magic out of his hat. I think if he had the support and respect of his brother, as well as the accountability to an entire firm of lawyers, we wouldn't be seeing many, if at all, of these stunts. I guess we'll never truly know, but it's sad that Chuck couldn't just once give him the benefit of the doubt. 

[editorgrrl]

Before the series ever aired, TPTB said episodes 106 & 109 would get people talking—and they were right. 106 was Mike's backstory (plus the initial teaming up of Jimmy & Mike), and 109 is the reveal that Howard Hamlin was never the bad guy at HHM. It's Shakespearian—or at least Godfatherly. (Speaking of which, did Jimmy make any pop cultural references this episode?)

Nacho's back. And Mike is one step closer to meeting Gus Fring.

[Milburn Stone]

To answer your question [what kind of brother is Chuck]: The kind of brother who doesn't want his brother to end up like we see Saul in the very opening scenes of episode 1.

 

Very good point.

 

I appreciate this and all the other posts that help me see things from Chuck's side.

[Boilergal]

I was sooooo wrong about Chuck - damn you Chuck for being such an arsehole!!  I appreciate how Kim walked the fence between not divulging what Hamlindigo confided in her and trying to talk to Jaul into taking the deal and moving on and away from HHM.   Have a feeling that after Hamlindigo realized Chuck's code had been used he paid a little visit to Chuck to find out what was going on (Chuck's intent by using the code)- break to Chuck on the bench with Jaul - Chuck spouting all the benefits of allowing HHM to assist- you know Chuck already had it set up and before he even mentioned it to Jaul -  Farker!!

 

Mike in the parking garage was great - loved the way the other big guy ran away.  I thought Mike meant Pimento Loaf - blech

 

I thought that the nerdy drug deal was going to end very badly  - and would be the impetus for Mike doing the money/drug drops the way he did with Jesse - I was super relived when they all walked away

[dmmetler]

I can understand Chuck wanting Jimmy to prove himself-but to knock down his brother this way, take away his biggest accomplishment just when he's really found something that works for him-Jimmy is GOOD with his elderly clients and picked up on something that had been missed. It could have been handled better.

 

I know Jimmy becomes Saul and a truly "criminal lawyer", but some part of me wants to see him in his nice little strip mall office with Kim as his partner, doing elder law with HHM referring the $150 price point for a will clients to him because they're too small potatoes. And I think if Chuck had suggested that Jimmy isn't ready for HHM, but that Jimmy take the money from this case and use it to build up his elder law practice, that HHM will refer cases to him as appropriate, and that he can build up his reputation, Jimmy would have taken that. Because Jimmy, more than anything else, wanted his big brother to be proud of him. It wouldn't be good TV, but it would be a much nicer outcome for someone who may not always do the right thing, but is truly a nice guy.

 

Mike, too-I want to see him doing legitimate PI work and enjoying his granddaughter not getting pulled into Gus Fring and drug deals out of guilt, manipulated by his daughter in law. He's a good guy who's done bad things, not a bad guy.

 

And Pryce, you've made one deal and came out of it whole largely due to Mike's background research. Run for the hills and have a nice life as a pharmacy technician or vet tech or whatever you are.

 

Basically, I want the show to end it's first season with all the characters living happily ever after. Except then I won't have a show to watch.

[PrincessSteel]

So much love for the parking garage scene. Thanks to 'Five-O', we know why Mike is broken. What we don't know is how he became such a douche-disarming, homework-doing zenmaster ninja. Oh, don't think I haven't noticed what you're doing here, Mr. Vince 'Job Security For Life' Gilligan!

[Captain I0]

I am in a bind, here. My husband is away tonight on business and we agreed that we would watch tonight's ep together tomorrow night. But I just couldn't wait and I watched Pimento by myself. Do I fess up or do I watch with him tomorrow night and pretend that I don't know what's coming?

Mike would say that I am already a criminal, I suppose. Now I just have to decide whether I'm a good guy or a bad guy.

 

If that's your takeaway from what Mike said, you missed his point. Your actions effect you on the bad guy/ good guy metric, not the criminal one. Mike wouldn't say you are a criminal, because you aren't breaking any laws by watching an ep without your husband. You already are a "bad guy" though, because what you did is not honor your deal.

 

 

sorry

[duVerre]

 

 

Here is my take on why all the troops at HHM turned out in the lobby to applaud Chuck's return. Hamlin ordered them to do it! ... That isn't a good indicator of Chuck being loved and well liked at HHM. Chuck was probably very aloof and too busy to be the friendly, hand shaking, backslapping partner at HHM.

 

Agreed. I've worked in several offices when everyone, from all departments, was rounded up to greet someone special when they entered, witness some kind of presentation, or whatever. It didn't matter if we actually knew that person or not. The appeal was to esprit de corps, doing things the company way. Also, my manager would tell me directly that it was expected. On the up side, those occasions gave me a break from my phone and e-mails for a while, and with luck, coffee and doughnuts were available.

 

I don't believe for a second that Chuck was personally loved by all those people. But I could easily buy that they got a memo informing them that the firm's most distinguished partner would be making an appearance after a long and cruel illness--and to show that HHM is strong, we will all gather in the lobby at two o'clock. ... that sort of thing. 

[Umbelina]

Chuck will always see Jimmy as "Slipping Jimmy" because that's what makes Chuck comfortable, and feeds his ego as "the good brother."

 

We saw much more, and Chuck could have, but he didn't want to.  In fact, he actively sabotaged his brother.  He could have been honest, but he didn't want to.  He could have suggested another law firm for him, and admitted he wasn't quite comfortable with Jimmy working for HMM.  He could have said he needed a little more time for proof that Slippin' Jimmy really had reformed.  He could have taken $40K or so out of his millions and told Jimmy to set up shop himself, maybe even throw a few clients HMM didn't want his way, or offered suggestions for his "Elder Law" ideas, or taken Jimmy on as an HMM lawyer in a way that involved no direct contact with clients, keep him buried in paperwork.  He could have told Jimmy he was uncomfortable because he'd made McGill stand for something important to him in ABQ, and offered to help him get established elsewhere.  He could have done many things that a person of high moral character would have.  He had a lot of other possible could haves as well.

 

Who is the real sleaze ball here?

 

The bottom line isn't that Chuck "loves the law," let alone that he has a steadfast moral character, because?  He does not.

 

  It's that he could not stand the idea of Jimmy doing the same job he does.  His ego couldn't stand it.  His jealousy couldn't stand it.  Jimmy being the screw up makes Chuck comfortable.  Jimmy succeeding?  Bugs the shit out of him.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Umbelina

[henripootel]

To answer your question [what kind of brother is Chuck]: The kind of brother who doesn't want his brother to end up like we see Saul in the very opening scenes of episode 1.

Ironic then that Chuck bears some measure of responsibility, probably a large measure, for Jimmy becoming Saul.  In much the same way that Mike got his son killed.  Oh VG, I am your bitch - well played.

[nachomama]

Much of this debate goes back to the age old question of can someone change permanently from their true nature and what factors play into that potential change, which is a fascinating question that has been explored in many ways and many shows on TV in the last 15 years. 

I can't fault Chuck too much, my sister is a Jimmy, as long as I live I don't know that I will ever completely trust her. She re-invents her life every 5 years or so. I would never sabotage her but I'm also not sticking my neck out too far. I might let her in my house but I wouldn't turn my back on her. She has never even shown as much initiative as Jimmy. He earned a degree, maybe too much thinking you can just join your brother's firm but Chuck should have stepped up and told him the truth. 

 

I know there's an age difference between Chuck and Jimmy, maybe this goes back that far, Chuck was an only child and excelled at everything. Jimmy comes along, steals his thunder, he's cuter and doesn't even have to do anything to earn praise. He's spoiled as the baby. 

 

Michael McKean and Johnathan Banks are killing it. 

[jnymph]

Who knew?  That VG would take (IMO) a mildly amusing character, bordering on unlikeable in BB; make it into a spin-off series;  and I'd eventually have a *CRUSH* on the character.  (Jimmy, not Mike. Although Mike is awesome too.)  

So many props to Bob Odenkirk and his approach to this fascinating character.   I find myself IMDB-ing the hell out of him lately and plan on checking out his other work.

Only 1 more episode !!!!!!  I could cry over that fact.   

(Speaking of which, did Jimmy make any pop cultural references this episode?)

 

Erin Brokovitch. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by jnymph

[Blakeston]

I have to disagree with those who think that Jimmy would be an ethical lawyer if he'd been hired at HHM from the get-go.

 

Jimmy's been pulling scams on people from day one. He doesn't just do it out of extreme financial necessity; he gets a thrill from it. He loved the attention he got as Slippin' Jimmy.

 

And the market is flooded right now with new lawyers who are in dire financial circumstances, just like he was, and yet I doubt many of them have hired someone to pretend to get hit by a car, in order to motivate a potential client to sign the dotted line.

 

As an attorney at HHM, I'm sure Jimmy would eventually get a client whose cause he truly believed in - or go up against someone he loathed - and then he'd pull out all the stops, ethics be damned. It's who he is. Even when he does the right thing, he often does it by breaking the law (like having Mike break into the Kettlemans' house.)

[editorgrrl]

I have to disagree with those who think that Jimmy would be an ethical lawyer if he'd been hired at HHM from the get-go.

 

The market is flooded right now with new lawyers who are in dire financial circumstances, just like he was, and yet I doubt many of them have hired someone to pretend to get hit by a car, in order to motivate a potential client to sign the dotted line.

 

But Jimmy hired the skater twins years after Chuck refused him a job at HHM. The point is we'll never know whether or not James M. McGill could've been an ethical lawyer—because he never got the chance. Chuck did everything in his power to ensure that his little brother'd never get the opportunity to play by the rules. Chuck set Jimmy up to fail—thereby proving Chuck "right."

 

 

Edited to thank jnymph for reminding me about Jimmy's belief that he and Chuck could "Erin Brockovich the shit out of this case." Also, the guy with no name referred to Mike as Uncle Fester and "Billy Jackoff" (a reference to a character from four action films in the late '60s & 70s).

Edited April 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

 

 

What loving brother feels that is all his brother deserves?

What loving brother lies, hides, sabotages, and actively works behind his brother's back? Chuck is gutless, and I'd take Jimmy over a cowardly saboteur like Chuck any day of the week, and 10 times on Monday.

Grow a pair Chuck, and try honesty.  Oh that's right, the "morally superior" Chuck wouldn't know honesty if it bit him on his tiny balls.  Hide behind your partner, steal your brother's case, and above all, lie, lie, lie, and then have the unmitigated gall to proclaim yourself a better person.  Dick.

THIS. I know in my heart that Jimmy is a screw-up. But even screw-ups have good ideas at times (although the execution of those ideas is certainly suspect). While I could agree that Jimmy didn't need to be working at HHM - there are other ways he could have been told - maybe he could have been mentored, maybe working as a lesser associate (I'm not a lawyer so I don't know the ins and outs of something like that). But to steal your brother's big client AND to blame it on somebody else doesn't make you ethical or morally superior.

 

 

I can't fault Chuck too much, my sister is a Jimmy, as long as I live I don't know that I will ever completely trust her. She re-invents her life every 5 years or so. I would never sabotage her but I'm also not sticking my neck out too far. I might let her in my house but I wouldn't turn my back on her.

I had two older brothers - one was the Chuck and one was the Jimmy. I couldn't trust the Jimmy as far as I could throw him. My Chuck brother did what he could but he also had limits (nothing like hiring into a firm - this was more like needing money or a place to live) 

[ToastnBacon]

I'm not of a mind that Jimmy did these for fun or because he can't tell the difference between this and 'normal' business practice. He did them because he was desperate. Chuck intentionally made him desperate - bit rich of him to draw from this 'Always knew Jimmy would always be 'Slippin' Jimmy''.

I'm not of the mind that he pulls his stunts and capers for fun either. I think he falls back on his Slipping Jimmy bag of tricks to negotiate life's obstacles. It is just who he is..

He only tossed his ethics and morals aside because he was desperate? I'm not so sure about that.

Even so, if he was working at HHM he would never encounter high stress or feelings of desparation?

Not very likely at all. He'd be working even bigger cases with even higher stakes at HHM.

Chuck had plenty of good reasons to protect his firm that that sort of risk.

The way he handled Jimmy was was crappy, he should have had the courage to be honest with Jimmy.

Nacho knew Jimmy was "in the game," and Mike knew Jimmy would play along with taking the detective's notebook.

All they had to do was spend a little time with him, and Chuck definately knows who Jimmy is.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[duVerre]

 

Edited to thank jnymph for reminding me about Jimmy's belief that he and Chuck could "Erin Brockovich the shit out of this case." Also, the guy with no name referred to Mike as Uncle Fester and "Billy Jackoff" (a reference to a character from four action films in the late '60s & 70s).

 

Two more for Jimmy:  when he consents to take the case to HHM, he tells Chuck "“Hail Satan. I submit to the dark side.”

(Rosemary’s Baby meets Star Wars.)

 

More obscurely--and maybe I'm listening much more carefully than the writers intended--Jimmy encourages Chuck to use the nuclear option, "launch the Doomsday Device." The Doomsday Device or Doomsday Machine is the name of the nuclear weapons system in Dr. Strangelove---a U.S. missile will automatically be launched at Russia if Russia sends a nuclear bomb to the U.S. And vice versa, of course. Whole scenes are written around that phrase. I think it entered popular language very quickly, but it does trace back to Kubrick's movie. 

[peggy06]

But Jimmy hired the skater twins years after Chuck refused him a job at HHM. The point is we'll never know whether or not James M. McGill could've been an ethical lawyer—because he never got the chance. Chuck did everything in his power to ensure that his little brother'd never get the opportunity to play by the rules. Chuck set Jimmy up to fail—thereby proving Chuck "right."

I don't know that you could even say that. How many years between Jimmy passing the bar and Jimmy setting up the scam with the skaters? Jimmy wasn't doing well, but that wasn't what directly motivated him. It was the prospect of a high-profile case with a rich client. Jimmy could have kept on doing PD cases, but he was so attracted by this case that he did something both unethical and recklessly dangerous to try to get it. If Jimmy had been interested in playing by the rules, he wouldn't have done that - the fact that his mind went there when the scam was pulled on him shows how ingrained those scammer tendencies are. And we've seen that it's something he's been doing his whole life.

 

We don't know the whole family history, but they came from Cicero, Illinois - a blue collar town. So Chuck wasn't some silver-spoon character who came from privilege. Yet Chuck made good by getting into a good law school and making a big success as a lawyer. Whereas Jimmy was involved in petty crime and various shenanigans from which he had to be rescued. Two brothers, two personalities.

 

I still like the show and really like Jimmy, despite his flaws. My beef with Chuck is the viciousness of the way he responded to Jimmy's challenge. The truth could have been told in a less-hurtful way. It would always be hurtful, but not as bad as saying "You're not a real lawyer." Chuck's sin is that he didn't level with Jimmy from the get-go. He's not responsible for the stuff Jimmy got up to. There is always another way, even if it's less attrative or personally beneficial (not taking the bribe, for example).

[kieyra]

My raging geekery forced me to zoom in on the bottle Nacho was examining. The name on it definitely started with OXY. I'm assuming Oxycodone. And, as someone whose ex was a Sketchy Vet ... veterinarians use ketamine in liquid form, as an injectable ;)

 

 

I can one-up this. As soon as they said '80 milligrams' I knew it was oxy.

 

And that, my friends, is what happens when you grow up in south Florida. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by kieyra

[ShadowFacts]

 

Chuck had plenty of good reasons to protect his firm that that sort of risk.

 

But that's not what he was doing.  He was not willing to be honest about his motivation, because even he knows that just comes off as petty and ugly and asshole-ish.  So he hides behind his partner for years.  If he had valid reasons, state them.  He didn't, because they weren't.  And his personality started disassembling shortly thereafter, I think.  Sometimes the punishment is baked into the misdeed.

 

It can never be stated that Jimmy wouldn't have gone down the Saul path regardless, but we do have some evidence that he would have stayed ethical if Chuck had done the right thing.  He worked for some years in the mail room, while finishing college and law school.  Unless they show more flashbacks, he was on the straight and narrow.  We have been shown that he is highly motivated to have Chuck's approval, at least at the point of beginning work at HHM. He could have gone on his merry scamming way in Chicago or anywhere.  So chances are equally good that he would have left his past behind.  Sharp dealing, skirting the line, sure, but he could have been much like many other lawyers. 

[ToastnBacon]

Yes, and it's possible that in later years Ol' Chuck may find himself wheeling around a darkened hallway of a certain nursing home  - maybe one where a mute resident resides. Ding!

LOL!

Oh how I hope we see Tio again!

I just checked the name of his retirement home and it is Casa Tranquila, but he didn't land there until after Tuco was killed.

Maybe we could see a slightly spryer version of him?

[ToastnBacon]

Who knew?  That VG would take (IMO) a mildly amusing character, bordering on unlikeable in BB; make it into a spin-off series;  and I'd eventually have a *CRUSH* on the character.  (Jimmy, not Mike. Although Mike is awesome too.)  

So many props to Bob Odenkirk and his approach to this fascinating character.   I find myself IMDB-ing the hell out of him lately and plan on checking out his other work.

Only 1 more episode !!!!!!  I could cry over that fact.   

Erin Brokovitch.

Odenkirk was good in that FX mini-series of Fargo from 2013. He didn't have a big role but his appearences wery very memorable. That series was spectacular!

[jnymph]

Odenkirk was good in that FX mini-series of Fargo from 2013. He didn't have a big role but his appearences wery very memorable. That series was spectacular!

 

Thanks for the tip TnB !

[editorgrrl]

Maybe I'm listening much more carefully than the writers intended—Jimmy encourages Chuck to use the nuclear option, "launch the Doomsday Device." The Doomsday Device or Doomsday Machine is the name of the nuclear weapons system in Dr. Strangelove—a US missile will automatically be launched at Russia if Russia sends a nuclear bomb to the US. And vice versa, of course. Whole scenes are written around that phrase. I think it entered popular language very quickly, but it does trace back to Kubrick's movie. 

 

Oh, I can one-up that (to quote kieyra)! When Chuck reassured Jimmy, "I'll keep on Howard. I won't badger him, but maybe I can gradually wear him down—get him to come around," I immediately thought, "Wait, does that mean that Brandon "Badger" Mayhew will or will not eventually appear on Better Call Saul?" (Wasn't Saul Goodman introduced on Breaking Bad as Badger's lawyer?)

Edited April 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[Constantinople]

If they had hired Jimmy he probably would have just been back out on the street within a few years anyway. A few setbacks and he'd be going the overly sleazy ethics route and the firm would have canned him.

 

 

Quite possibly but here's the thing: then it would be Jimmy's fault that Jimmy ended up fired.  Instead, Chuck made that call and it wasn't Chuck's to make

Then whose call is it?

Jimmy isn't entitled to be hired by HHM out of law school just because Jimmy's brother is a partner.

Nor can I believe that the other partners at HHM want to hire an ex-con freshly graduated from a correspondence law school. HHM, after all, is a firm so focused on its image that it trademarked Hamlindigo and its HHM design. They might do it if Chuck steam rolled them into it, but I doubt Chuck had to coerce the other parners not to hire Jimmy.

I also find it hard to believe that Jimmy was that naive.

[henripootel]

Jimmy isn't entitled to be hired by HHM out of law school just because Jimmy's brother is a partner.

Nope, so as so many others have pointed out, Chuck should have been honest with him and sent him to some other agency.  Or helped Jimmy become a better lawyer.  Or given Jimmy the means to go to a real law school.  Or given Jimmy paralegal-type work to help him make his bones and see if had the aptitude and appetite for real legal work.  Any of these would have put Jimmy's fate in Jimmy's hands, and this is far from all the options in the bag.

 

What he actually did do was string Jimmy along to guarantee he failed no matter how hard he struggled, and then watched him struggle.  And struggle, hopelessly.  And the only reason this worked is because Jimmy trusted him.  I have no idea whether Jimmy would have eventually ended up as Saul anyway but, as someone pointed out upstream, he (and we) will never know. 

Nor can I believe that the other partners at HHM want to hire an ex-con

Conman, yes, but can you take the bar in NM if you're an actual felon?  And does anyone at HHM know about Slippin' Jimmy?

Edited April 1, 2015 by henripootel

[ghoulina]

Chuck will always see Jimmy as "Slipping Jimmy" because that's what makes Chuck comfortable, and feeds his ego as "the good brother."

 

Your entire post was amazing, and did a fantastic job of summing up exactly how I see the Chuck-Jimmy dynamic. But I really wanted to touch on this sentence, because it's so simple. I really think that's what it is. It's about ego, and territory, and jealousy. I don't think Chuck ever TRIED to see Jimmy as anything else. Not really. Every time something good happened, Chuck's initial response was doubt. I get that old habits die hard, but this is his BROTHER. Could he not have a little faith? Just once?

 

 

Only 1 more episode !!!!!!  I could cry over that fact.

 

I'm currently in denial, but I think a 12 step program may be in order. 

[Blakeston]

But Jimmy hired the skater twins years after Chuck refused him a job at HHM. The point is we'll never know whether or not James M. McGill could've been an ethical lawyer—because he never got the chance. Chuck did everything in his power to ensure that his little brother'd never get the opportunity to play by the rules. Chuck set Jimmy up to fail—thereby proving Chuck "right."

 

I don't think it's fair to say that Chuck did everything in his power to ensure that his little brother would never get the opportunity to play by the rules.

 

Chuck prevented Jimmy from getting a job at HHM, but Jimmy wasn't entitled to a job there. Taking him on as an associate would have been nepotism.

 

Not giving your little brother a job at your firm - a job that he's unqualified for - isn't at all the same as ensuring that he has to break the rules.

Conman, yes, but can you take the bar in NM if you're an actual felon?  And does anyone at HHM know about Slippin' Jimmy?

 

There are people who get convicted of felonies as adults, and end up being admitted to state bar associations. It's usually something along the lines of a DUI, though.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Or given Jimmy the means to go to a real law school.

What matters isn't where he went to school; what matters is passing the bar. That's why the exam exists and not everyone who graduates from a "real" law school is able to do that...ever.

[henripootel]

What matters isn't where he went to school; what matters is passing the bar

Oh, I agree.  I was just giving this as an example of things Chuck might have done, given what Chuck thought about Jimmy's qualifications.  Not that Jimmy would have taken the opportunity but it would have been a whole hell of a lot more honest a thing for Chuck to do, and brotherly.  

[nachomama]

We don't know the whole family history, but they came from Cicero, Illinois - a blue collar town. So Chuck wasn't some silver-spoon character who came from privilege. Yet Chuck made good by getting into a good law school and making a big success as a lawyer. Whereas Jimmy was involved in petty crime and various shenanigans from which he had to be rescued. Two brothers, two personalities.

thank you! I vaguely wanted to think they weren't natives of New Mexico but I wasn't sure. (I am, preens) Anywho, it would bug the ever living shit out of me if my jimmysister moved near me and tried to horn in on anything, my work, my friends etc. She just did it with my ummm...chucksister(?) She mooched off my chucksister for nearly 2 years, co opting her church family and everyone looking at my chucksister thinking she's soooooooooooooo horrible to jimmysister but nobody knows the shit jimmysister has pulled and chucksister's got 40 years of knowing, everyone else gets a glimpse and the glimpse is where they turn on the charm. It isn't until jimmysister does something so over the top, gets caught that anyone says, "oh yeah, you were right, she's batshit crazy".

 

Chuck's been trying to get away from Jimmy his whole life. Did Chuck ever have a wife and kids?

 

Ok, now I'm having a crisis. Who knew I was related to the McGills! I'm from New Mexico and my last name starts with "M"  I'm not chuck, I'm not jimmy...who am I??????!??!?!?!?! I've broken my brain, I have to turn off all electricity. Where is my solar blanket!

[editorgrrl]

Chuck's been trying to get away from Jimmy his whole life. Did Chuck ever have a wife and kids?

 

In the "Nacho" flashback with Slippin' Jimmy in Cook County Jail for a "simple Chicago sunroof," Chuck was wearing a wedding ring. I got the impression their mom was still in Cicero, but Chuck had a wife in Albuquerque. Maybe kids, but maybe not.

 

In "Pimento," Chuck tells Jimmy, "When you straightened out and got a job in the mailroom, I was very proud." And the "Nacho" flashback ended like this:

Chuck: If I do this, do not make a fool out of me.

Jimmy: I promise I won't.

Chuck: Everything you're doing, everything you're involved with—that's over.

Jimmy: [Exhales sharply] Just tell me what to do. [Voice breaking] Whatever it is, I'll do it. Just say it. Please, Chuck? Help me.

 

My impression was that in exchange for defending Jimmy, Chuck made him promise to move to Albuquerque and get a job in the mailroom at HHM. YMMV.

 

Edited to add about whether or not it matters where Jimmy went to law school. On Breaking Bad, I got the impression the University of American Samoa was a party school in the tropics. (Go, Land Crabs!) In "Rico," we learned that Jimmy finished his undergraduate degree at a community college, then got his law degree via distance learning (aka correspondence school), then took the bar exam three times—all whilst holding down a full-time job.

 

Sure, it wasn't Georgetown or anything, but they're accredited. And it shows that Jimmy can play by the rules and put in the hard work.

Edited April 1, 2015 by editorgrrl

[ToastnBacon]

What matters isn't where he went to school; what matters is passing the bar. That's why the exam exists and not everyone who graduates from a "real" law school is able to do that...ever.

What school you went to matters if you can even sit for the bar exam in most states.

The ABA doesn't recognize degrees that are 100% distance learning. Most states leave the certification of degrees to the ABA, not sure where New Mexico falls in this.

Bottom line, we are talking about a fictional show. In real life, it matters were you went to school.

For your enjoyment, here is what the ABA says about distance learning law school degrees.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/legal_education/resources/distance_education.html

Distance Education

Standard 306: Distance Education sets out the parameters for earning credit for study offered through distance education. Currently, no law schools that provide a J.D. degree completely via distance education are approved by the ABA. Earning an education completely via distance education may drastically limit your ability to sit for the bar in many states.

In order to obtain a license to practice law in the United States, almost all law school graduates must apply for bar admission through a state board of bar examiners. Usually this board is an agency of the highest court in the jurisdiction, but occasionally the board is connected more closely to the state’s bar association. The criteria for eligibility to take the bar examination or to otherwise qualify for bar admission are set by each state, not by the ABA or the Council for the Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar.

In order to sit for the bar examination, most states require an applicant to hold a degree from a law school that meets acceptable established educational standards. Most states, however, have chosen not to handle the daunting task of accrediting law schools throughout the United States to determine if individuals have satisfied the requisite educational qualifications. Maintaining an accreditation process is both fiscally and administratively demanding. As a result, the vast majority of bar admission authorities in the United States rely upon ABA approval to determine whether their legal education requirement for admission to the bar is satisfied. Education at an ABA-approved law school meets the requirements in every jurisdiction in the United States.

The posters who are saying that an online degree is just as good as a degree from an in residence school are so very wrong.

Especially when it comes to law school. There is a pecking order for top schools when it comes to hiring, and there is a real difference in the quality of education you get.

Edited April 1, 2015 by ToastnBacon

[ShadowFacts]

I maintain that if Jimmy had gone a more conventional route, gotten into a into a better quality school, graduated top 15%, passed the bar on his first try, Chuck still would not have let him get his foot in his firm's door.  Because his poor credentials were not the reason for what he did.  No matter how Jimmy came to be a (non real) lawyer, Chuck did not have to hire him.  Nor did Jimmy have to be the sole caretaker for Chuck for 18 months.  Nobody has to do anything.  Doing the decent thing voluntarily, however, comes easier to some than others. 

[ToastnBacon]

Community colleges typically only offer AA degrees and I'm pretty sure you need a BA or BS to be admitted to law school.

I remember scratching my head when Jimmy said he finished his undergraduate degree at a community college.

I guess this is another BCS departure from reality? Kind of surprised that VG & Co took creative license on a little fact like that, but it adds to the reason why Chuck rejects Jimmy as a peer.

I'm not ready to burn Chuck at the stake; I have some compassion and understanding for the character.

[editorgrrl]

Community colleges typically only offer AA degrees and I'm pretty sure you need a BA or BS to be admitted to law school.

I remember scratching my head when Jimmy said he finished his undergraduate degree at a community college.

I guess this is another BCS departure from reality? Kind of surprised that VG & Co took creative license on a little fact like that.

 

Community's Jeff Winger (played by Joel McHale) worked for a law firm called Hamish, Hamish & Hamlin until it was discovered he faked his degree. He then enrolled at Greendale Community College to get an associate's.

 

So TV precedent has already been set.

[Umbelina]

Not giving your little brother a job at your firm - a job that he's unqualified for - isn't at all the same as ensuring that he has to break the rules.

 

 

Except Jimmy was bringing them a $20M contract with him, and I'm pretty sure a few of the lawyer-types here said most firms would quickly put a lawyer who brought that kind of money to the firm on staff.  ???

 

Also, I'm not is saying Chuck HAD to put him on at HMM to be a decent person.  I'm saying, sack up wimp, be honest about it all, even if you can't do the half-way decent thing and give him some guidance about where else to start?  Don't sabotage him, don't LIE repeatedly to him, all the while using him and his love for you to run your errands and defend you.  Add that to his venom, and complete dismissal of how very hard Jimmy DID work to become a lawyer? 

 

Yup, he's an asshole.

 

He broke Jimmy's heart, and spirit, and was the last in a line of people that kicked him in the teeth when he tried to better himself.  Only his brother doing it?  Devastated him, because he believes in his brother.  So if his brother says he's worthless, and will always be a criminal?  He must be right.

 

So, yeah, if you want a jealous coward and a liar for your "honorable lawyer" hiring Chuck McGill is a great idea.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Umbelina

[ketose]

Reading this, I started hearing "it's just a TV show" in my head. I think we can establish that someone like a Jimmy McGill can take classes at a state school for undergrad and maybe a night school for law. Although, New Mexico may not have enough law schools to actually have "good" and "bad" schools.

 

And if you listen to Chuck's speech, it starts out being about American Samoa, but it quickly escalates into Jimmy having a JD at all. Slippin' Jimmy with a Harvard degree would be a chimp with a Tomahawk missile.

 

What's interesting is that even though Chuck is like the Godfather, there are some weird aspects. Remember when Hamlin made that deal to pay Chuck $850 a week? I'm beginning to wonder if Chuck chose the amount to keep Jimmy from having access to more than bacon money.

[dmmetler]

New Mexico is one of the few states I've lived in where Jimmy finishing a BS at a community college is very possible, because Eastern New Mexico and Western New Mexico University are both actually systems, similar to the SUNY system of New York, and while there are many, many 2 year campuses that have extremely low admissions standards and cater towards non-traditional adult students, military personnel (quite a few are located on military bases), vocational students, and high school students picking up a college class or two via DE, they do usually have a route by which you can get a popular 4 year degree or two on campus. In the late 1980s/early 1990s, this was usually done by a class taught on the main campus (which offers a full range of undergraduate and graduate degrees) actually being broadcast to a classroom on a 2 year campus with someone there in the room to manage the audio feed and relay questions to the instructor, proctor tests, take up assignments, etc.

Edited April 2, 2015 by dmmetler

[Irlandesa]

I guess this is another BCS departure from reality? Kind of surprised that VG & Co took creative license on a little fact like that, but it adds to the reason why Chuck rejects Jimmy as a peer.

Not a departure at all.  There are plenty of community colleges offering a Bachelor's degree.  Just for proof, here's an article talking about how the trend was growing.

 

And I don't know how easy it would be for him to go to a better school.  I don't believe that once you've gotten a degree from one place in a certain topic, you can get the same degree from another institution.  Jimmy pretty much has to deal with the cards he has. 

[ketose]

Not a departure at all.  There are plenty of community colleges offering a Bachelor's degree.  Just for proof, here's an article talking about how the trend was growing.

 

And I don't know how easy it would be for him to go to a better school.  I don't believe that once you've gotten a degree from one place in a certain topic, you can get the same degree from another institution.  Jimmy pretty much has to deal with the cards he has. 

If you're made of money, you can get the same degree over again. In fact, you may only have to take half the classes, since credits from certain courses will transfer over. I had one college take D's as transfer credits as long as I had enough corresponding B's.